Not only is this information important and charitably presented, but you are very much stepping all technical and story-telling aspects of your work. Quick becoming a must-see TH-camr.
Okay, this is a little too coincidental. It was actually your video response to the "Cutting and Pasting" cherry-picking accusation that Andrew (I forget his last name) leveled against you that I was watching that brought me over to this channel. Or it was just the Algorithm doing its job. Possibly a divine miracle?... 🤣 Agreed though, I'm so glad I found his channel.
@@tedfrancis3961 Gnostic informant is letting anyone on his show and being a total yes man to everything! I stopped watching him, as he doesn't vet his guests or fact check them, and builds a belief on it without checking what opponents have to say. He's been taken apart and criticized a few times already and shown to be more in it for the views than the truth. He's not a scholar, and his work doesn't resemble good scholarship either.
I got my legal pad and just started taking notes. I kept pausing the video too. I knew there was going to be a TON of good information in it. WOW. This response did not disappoint!!!!!
Who would have thought the Leading scholar on the dead sea scrolls had a soul patch and wore clothes exclusively from the local malls hot topic store. System of a Down with the dead sea scrolls
One of the most amazing things the Internet provides is ACCESS to experts and scholars who freely share their knowledge with the world. Thank you Dr. Davis!
That bit at the end was fire, and I hope you'll send it to Evans. Even apart from worries about reputation downplaying, he's referencing people who did original work that he disagrees with (and presumably wants the viewer to disagree with), so at the very least he should provide a useful reference for people who want to dig further.
Dr. Davis, this was a fantastic examination of the claims made by Dr. Evans and as someone who admittedly only has a passing interest in the field, I have to say, this video hooked me from the beginning. I also want to echo the sentiment of quite a few other commenters by saying that ending it the way you did felt a bit like the speech in Braveheart (or Independence Day, if you're so inclined) and had me audibly whisper-shouting "YES!" at work. You've earned a new subscriber.
I really liked your "I am your colleague" bit. That sounded like a very appropriate; "Yes, I was once your student. But I have moved far past you, at least in this specific area of study, so in this I am no longer your student but a colleague." Or, to put it in the vernacular, "Eff you!"😁
12:20 “So a former student of mine who will go nameless…” I’m not very familiar with the academic norms in this field. And this isn’t an academic publication but a TH-cam channel. But it seems like it would typically be good practice to mention fellow researchers by name and give them credit whenever possible. Also to point people to the actual work. There may be good reasons not to, and probably also plenty of bad ones. If it was really bad work somehow, pointing people to it should be instructive right, and there should be actual responses to it in the literature as well.
This is such an amazing video. I watched the original interview as well and saw your comments there. Thanks for tackling some of Dr. Evans' claims. As you mentioned, TH-cam seems like a very odd venue to first report such claims. Hopefully, Sean and others see this response and temper their expectations of authenticity.
*A real scholar that approaches his work with integrity & honor. Appreciate your deep dive into these pathetic apologetic attempts to make goD's word real...* *For all we know it may have been written as as play to out humanities foibles...*
Somehow this video dug up from the recesses of my memory a book I read decades ago. I think the title was “The Forger’s Handbook”, written by a British artist and professional forger based in Rome. Fascinating and enlightening read. It was about art pieces (paintings, drawings) but the advice on how to “resurface” a piece so to make its provenance look legitimate apply to every kind of artifact and strongly resonate with the case presented in the video.
That was a fantastic and, may I say, charitable examination of Dr Evans' claims. Your address to Dr Evans at the conclusion was exceptional and very true. Your channel has become a favorite of mine. Thank you, Dr Davis.
I saw the tag/headline for the original video, and was waiting for a response from someone who actually knew what was being discussed, and am not disappointed to see it was you. Well done, and you’re definitely his peer if not his superior
It was so hard to understand anything Dr. Evans was talking about when I first saw the livestream, but this video made it so much more clear. I see why now. It’s because Dr. Evans is not scroll scholar at all. His commentary was all made defensively to smooth over evidence that does not empower the evangelical narrative. It also lacked so much context that the lay person needed to understand what was happening and that you were able to beautifully describe here. Thanks for clearing things up for us.
This is just absurd. This reminds me so much of the "first century Mark" fiasco with Dan Wallace announcing it in a debate with Bart Ehrman, rather than in any scholarly format. It is the exact same thing: create massive drama by saying this wild stuff that hasn't been actually proven in peer review; reap lots of benefits and attention and stir the legal pot; reward.
That's EXACTLY what I was thinking also. I remember hearing Wallace make that claim and I was instantly skeptical; rightfully so. These instances are why I label Wallace, Evans, Habermas, and others of the same ilk as apoli-scholar-gists. They may have been trained in these disciplines, yet that doesn't mean that they will be honest about their methodology and scholarship.
The comparison of these fragments to ancient relics is perfect. If they contain little or nothing relevant, all that is left is to show them off and touch them to garner admiration and maybe a blessing.
Well what your really want is: 1. An inventory of what was in the Swiss Vault box in the beginning. 2. What has been sold from the box and to whom 3. What is left in the box, and a photographic represenation. 4. Who is the curator and designated conservator of the pieces. 5. How many times, when and by whom has the box been opened.
Also, him diminishing you to just a former student of his is ridiculous. That needs to be highlighted a little more too. I had no idea he was talking about you. I just finished a masters degree, and if someone still called me a student of theirs after 20 years of practicing on my own, I’d think they’re being completely egotistical
Dr. Evans really wants these fragments to be authentic. He says it doesn't matter to him but then he acts quite differently. Thank you Dr. Davis for an interesting video on the Scrolls.
I concur on the issue of asking him to respect your status, in the context of the study of these texts, as more than just some "former student." One thing that he should consider. If you are indeed a "former student," he, as a faculty member, considered you to have met the qualifications for the educational degree that you obtained. So, his judgment of your capabilities contributed to your educational accomplishment, such that he should accept that you earned your accomplishments.
Being associated with a company that professionally manufactures dead sea scroll replicas is not a good look when it comes to promoting questionable forgeries as authentic tbh.
Dr Davis thank you for your videos i hope i can learn from your analytic skills and apply them in my studies im currently writing a short exegesis on 1. Tim and its a real pain to go through every argument that was made about its authorship :|
Thank you Professor Davis for this clear examination of the issues surrounding Dr. Evans claims. I found myself wondering why he didn’t provide real paleographic argument against what your team discovered. Instead it was “my good friend, Weston Fields” believes”. And then unequivocally claims they are authentic!
I have always wondered why evangelicals seem to put the Dead Sea scrolls on such a pedestal. I had never thought about relics, thank you for a possible explanation. Unlike the Dr Whosit you are a class act. I would never be able to make such a reasonable rebuttal as you did.
@@KaiHenningsen that would have some appearance of legitimacy, technically, supposedly, almost, at least by comparison. Although I like the main piece of "evidence" was the interviewee saying he was told "trust me bruh," by his superior in his club; I guess societies still flourish
Great video. I was watching Sean McDowell's one but when i saw in the comments that you'd responded, i hopped over here. I wonder why Sean McDowell didn't add a link to this response under the original video. It's been over a year now.
To be clear, I think Sean McDowell has adopted a policy by which he will neither acknowledge my existence, nor respond to me. I think that he was very upset by the documentary I made a few years back about his father's conversion narrative, and that since then he has just hoped that I would go away.
Thanks. Sorry it took me a couple days to get through this. I remain enamored with your speaking/writing style it somehow make it more digestible for a layman. I agree with Paulogia and expect your audience to grow immensely on TH-cam. It is also nice to see you assert yourself, firmly.
Excellent analysis of this situation. Thanks for sharing your expertise on this. I must say, this sort of thing is disappointing. If the fragments are genuine, it would be so much better if they had maintained their provenance. If they are forgeries, it would be better if it were simply settled. This sort of thing just muddies the waters for people who have only a passing interest in such relics.
This was excellent. I could really empathize with the final aside to Dr. Evans. It was strange to hear him refer to a working professional with both credentials and experience as 'former student' as if you had dropped out or done nothing of note with your education. Demeaning and frustrating.
It will go public tomorrow, but I suck at this TH-cam thing. I probably should not have created the clip, since I was unaware it would link back to the whole video.
I saw your presentation on Pinecreek's channel and was disappointed at Doug's demeanor. I loved your stuff, and then I thought "well heck, what am I doing listening to Doug if he doesn't care about this?" Subscribed. This was a fantastic video.
I have to say that your closing appeal notwithstanding, if I was Mr Evans I'd do exactly the opposite: I'd be wearing that "Dr Kipp Davis was my student" like a freaking badge of honor.
MythVision vid with you have brought me here. I much look forward to your vids. Just a note: am former Mormon, who has seen dead Sea scrolls misused and misrepresented to support mormonism
I used to work in the Oriental Institute Museum at the University of Chicago while I was getting my Masters in Hebrew Bible at the Divinity School. They had a fragment of the Dead Sea scrolls on display there, and I remember seeing it many times and thinking, it’s cool that this is here… but so what? If I remember correctly it was only about 2cm by 3cm and the only word you could make out was “lo.” And yet I stopped and stared at it a number of times, and it was always one of the things I made sure to show people who were visiting me. On the other hand, we had one of the original Sennacherib Prisms on display. Even though the Sennacherib Prism is orders of magnitude more important to Biblical Studies than that one shred of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it got no where near as much attention. All that to say: I can see why collectors would want fragments of the Dead Sea scrolls - they don’t have to be useful, they have to be captivating. Also, I remember watching Dr. Evans’ discussion with Sean before I saw your reaction, and I laughed out loud when he said people didn’t use microscopes on the original Dead Sea Scrolls. I remember using a magnifying glass on the photocopy of a photograph of the Genesis Apocryphon in our Hebrew class! I used a magnifying glass to study friggin copy paper… and we’re supposed to think to think no one thought to use a microscope on the real thing?! Come on… it’s stupid to even think that.
@@DrKippDavis It was a class with Dennis Pardee on the development and evolution of Hebrew, we started with Ugaritic, and examined how that and Akkadian and proto-siniatic might have influenced each other in the development of Hebrew. Then explored how the language evolved and letter formations changed up through Masoretic. We didn’t translate much more that 20 verses of 1QapGen, because it was just a stop on the tour. I took a whole class on Ugaritic with Pardee, which was super fascinating, though admittedly I wasn’t good enough at Akkadian to get as much out of it as I wished. I was never good enough at the languages to really succeed, and it’s more been over 8 years since I’ve even looked at a grammar. Unfortunately, I couldn’t hack it in academia, so I had to move on to other ways to put food on the table.
another example: The muon's experiments in order to test Einstien's theory. The textbook's explanation is ...junk but to know it mathematically I need to check the details (in literature) in I got: my Theory, that only treating "muon" as a wave (DeBrogile-Schrodinger) has a physical sense and not as a "particle" or idiotic Famous Twin since AD 1911,P. Langevin's hoax. Be aware: all Hollywood's Star War production will go .. bankrupt if they learn it finally! (I have confirmation from two professors, authors, Us, Smith College, and Leeds University (they made a typical mistake in their textbooks but they admitted I AM right!)
Not to nitpick, but you use the heading "Preaching to the Choir." I consider myself to be in "the Choir," but I saw red flag after red flag in McDowell's interview. I am concerned, when these fragments inevitably prove to be forgeries, that an air of doubt will attach itself to previous work on disputed texts that was conducted with proper controls. I can't shake the feeling that this interview was motivated by financial interests, possibly because there are negotiations to sell more fragments in the near future. Further, I have my suspicions that the venue was chosen because it would avoid the scrutiny of most critics (or so they hoped) yet appeal to potential buyers who, like McDowell (and I, for the record), approach these subjects from a confessional perspective. As someone who had planned to pursue academia as a career but became disillusioned with the "industry" it has become, I am selfishly relieved and affirmed in my decision to step away. It's still unsettling, though.
I would agree with you. It is so disheartening that there is such a dark underbelly in regards to unprovenanced fragments and artifacts. So much unethical behavior that, really, has no consequences.
I get the idea that suggesting tests that won't be done is a deliberate ploy so they can blame the authorities for not doing the tests. And yes he is clearly try to use 'my student' to imply his word is stronger.
As a layperson, what strikes me is that in a court case, the opposing expert witnesses will probably know each other. If its a jury trial, thats a big ask for any expert in this field. I would say its a case of buyer aware. Spend the money on authentication before buying them.
Dr. Kipp, even though I myself am certainly not any kind of biblical scholar, from the things said in this video, it is clear to me that Dr. Evans has only marginally more knowledge about the scrolls than I do. Of course, this is hyperbole, but it is the way he came across in his appearance on Sean MacDowell's show. He made himself look like not much more than a fan of the scrolls and their history rather than an academic who has spent decades studying them. He came across as someone who wants desperately to be recognized as an integral part of Dead Sea scroll analysis and scholarship so much that he is willing to lie in order to make his "announcement" appear to be a bombshell, when it's really just a set of debunked rumors. He pretty much tainted all of his future work in this area, by making him look untrustworthy as an academic. In short, he looks like someone willing to sell his soul for some attention. Even if I had heard about this revelation by way of another source, it would still have appeared suspect to me. The first thing that didn't sound right was the idea that the original manuscript scribes would have taken the parchment and let it age and dry out before they used it. This is a ridiculous proposal. That makes no sense to us now and it wouldn't have made any sense to the ancient scribes. It would have made their work fragile rather than durable, making their work all for naught as it deteriorated before their eyes. Next, even if they had done this, it would have been impossible to produce the level of scribal workmanship that they did if they had caused their materials to degrade this way before they used them. It would have been impossible for them to create a whole body of work without some of it being lost almost immediately. Next to that, there is no obvious reason why you might have originally alleged that they were fake. It would really only make you look bad, as you were working with the scrolls for decades at that point without having notice it before. What? Lastly, it seems really suspect that the suspicions of fakery were announced when they were. You we're currently working for the Green family's museum. Discovering that the scrolls they had spent so much time and money to acquire were not real damaged the reputation of your employer drastically. Both you and the Greens had nothing to gain by coming out with this true bombshell when you did. I don't know you personally, but I am well aware of your credentials, so from the first time he named you as "one of his students", it rankled me. For you to have the access and level of knowledge of the scrolls that you did at the time of your discovery, it makes no sense to imply that you were his subordinate rather than his peer, which is how it sounded regardless of whether he really meant that you had been a past student of his or a current one. At this point, I have to admit that I am a fan of you and your work. I know that you have other fans whose admiration is much more important than mine as they are your peers as well as your friends. I refuse to believe that you could have been disgraced as accused without that admiration and trust being diminished, which it obviously has not. I am both disgusted and ashamed that someone would be willing to throw you under the bus, so to speak, for the sake of aggrandizing himself and his own reputation. I also need to admit that I have a very negative opinion of the Green family, the owners of the Museum of the Bible. I worked for them personally for a few years, so I know how they operate. They are very conservative evangelical Christians, who have a deep need to show off their devotion and their wealth. Thus, seeing how they were willing to do anything and pay anything for to make their museum look important without investigating and authenticating their artifacts before purchase seems very on brand to me. Seeing as Dr. Evans himself is an evangelical, it only makes sense that he would not want to make his side, the evangelicas, look like the greedy fools they really are in this case.
48:43 look into the financing of his "research". It sounds like he will be testifying on behalf of the defendants accused of selling forgeries or fakes. He’s building his credentials for the court record
Kipp, silly question that maybe I would know if I was more familiar with your editing. Did you or Sean's channel add your name overlay when mentioning "a former student of mine"?
@@DrKippDavis nice. Glad I don’t have to be even more furious now… I gave a shout out in the comments on the original video to read your comment and to come over and watch this video.
Hey kipp im a nobody building a boardgame but im looking at qumran scrolls, in particular enoch and jubilees calender stuff. I wanted to host a short or long conversation about both the zadak and enoch calenders and their mechanics. I built what in my mind is a lost lunar calender and animated it too its pretty cool. Not sure if ur around but i’d love to maybe ask you a few questions and get your viewpoints on the matter of dead sea scroll calender stuff, u could post it as a video if u like it. I just want it as an accent for this pretty massive mythology encyclopedia ive created, lmk if ur bored and would love to talk to you
I'm fascinated by the universality of obfuscation, conflation, and hyperbole as primary tools of apologetics. It's not like Christianity is rife with fraudulent artifacts and forged parchments. But hey, they'll do whatever it takes to "prove" what they believe - in spite of the lack of evidence.
I find Craig A. Evans' seeming ignorance of how the scrolls are studied and his lack of knowledge about the ink jumping the cracks on all scrolls, a red flag. I find it hard to believe that ancient ink would stretch along the cracks in such a dry environment. I am making this comment before I finished the video. I'm so used to watching and listening to people like Neil Degrasse Tyson explain things, that when a scholar acts like this guy, I get suspicious.
Perhaps he was thinking, "a former student...who is now a dirty atheist who listens to heavy metal music. " Listening to Evans's story, he sounds like a mark who has become a con artist's best friend.
I mean tbf if someone announces that they have a lot of money to spend on something it's not that surprising if they are later found to be in possession of that thing.
Both parties to a dispute over authenticity would have an interest in establishing that they are authentic, despite the dispute. It would be a convenient way of putting the matter to bed. For the vendor it takes off the pressure of the suit and for the purchaser it gives them satisfaction that the investment has now become more valuable (and marketable).
This is what my friend and mentor Marty Abegg also said. I can agree in part, but then I must always push back that McDowell should know better than to use his channel as a clearing house for unvetted academic ideas.
There are certain church groups using DSS debunking to support their version of the Bible… …it’s daunting to say the least. I don’t even know where to starte with these folks
You should start with my "The Dead Sea Scrolls: Unapologetically" series! In one of the forthcoming videos I tackle directly some Christian apologetics that have misused the Scrolls.
I always asked myself if the authorities who first collected and observed the scrolls, kept some scrolls hidden or destroyed some scrolls which would have damaged traditional Judaism or Christianity. I mean they were kept secret for years. Anyone an opinion on that ?
@@DrKippDavis thanks Dr. Davis. I heard that scholars literally had to beg to the authorities to get access to scrolls and to study them. But thanks for clarification and this was just a question. Btw i love your videos.
@@richman8082If I’m not mistaken the documents that are under control of Jordan are the ones that “Western” scholars would like to study and have not been able to access. I **think** there was some discussion of that in a recent Mythvision live stream, as well as ongoing efforts to negotiate access. Basically it’s sensitive and seems to involve Jordan having had some sort of bad experience with scholars in the past (don’t quote me on that). But that’s very different than documents being suppressed.
@@bensalemi7783 thank you very much for your answer. I also didn't want to spread misinformation, its just I heard stories about officials having kept scrolls secret. And I thought it was a good timing to as the professor about the reliability of it.
I love it: proof of how Satan (a liar-J8:44, Aristotle's privation principle) works in Headquarters (1P4:17). A lot of other..forgeries to cover just ...idiocy of an "expert" to become the "Famous Star". An example just from Bible, John 20:28 where St.Thomas call Jesus "God and Lord" but in Commentaries there is almost nothing on it (why?) but just historical sources and the recent archeological one just proves my suspicion that such verse is just a mockery on the Cesar Diocletian claim for such "Title" as all Synoptics Gospels (esp. Mk 10:18, etc) and other writings never attach the title "God" to Jesus (as "Son of God"- Fr. J.M. Bochenski OP, logician from divine Warsaw-Lviv School of Logic mockery about "the pregnant God-Father with a belly") but only to Father as the God/"theos" (one learns from Scholars that John was not a perfect in Greek as others (smarter) writers. A lot of examples of Liars-devils in Akademia and the Church; fortunately, Free TT, non-Satanic Media now allows us to teach...poor sheep despite Idiots at Govs, Akademia, and Church, not to mention the perfectly dumb mass media. Today, the feast of St.Athanasius (contra Arius) and the beginning of Christological controversies, You, Akademia@Vatican's lunatics (and Sanhedrin, Muslim's Pope) will pay a ..Final price if U don't know Rev. B.Russell's definition of description (in PM,1910) that formally (in mathematical logic language ) explains plainly the Issue but you, Humans cannot get it.
Not only is this information important and charitably presented, but you are very much stepping all technical and story-telling aspects of your work. Quick becoming a must-see TH-camr.
Sorry Paul, you are just a single source for this claim. Going to have to give you the jingle! 🤓
I absolutely agree! 💯
Okay, this is a little too coincidental. It was actually your video response to the "Cutting and Pasting" cherry-picking accusation that Andrew (I forget his last name) leveled against you that I was watching that brought me over to this channel. Or it was just the Algorithm doing its job. Possibly a divine miracle?... 🤣 Agreed though, I'm so glad I found his channel.
Myth vision and Gnostic informant as well as Kipp are crushing it
@@tedfrancis3961 Gnostic informant is letting anyone on his show and being a total yes man to everything! I stopped watching him, as he doesn't vet his guests or fact check them, and builds a belief on it without checking what opponents have to say. He's been taken apart and criticized a few times already and shown to be more in it for the views than the truth. He's not a scholar, and his work doesn't resemble good scholarship either.
I'm seriously grateful for the careful analysis in this video Dr. Kipp Davis! Let's hope this gets shared far and wide.
I got my legal pad and just started taking notes. I kept pausing the video too. I knew there was going to be a TON of good information in it. WOW. This response did not disappoint!!!!!
"far and wide" I see what you did there.
But the real question is: who is Sean McDowell, what are his credentials?
Who would have thought the Leading scholar on the dead sea scrolls had a soul patch and wore clothes exclusively from the local malls hot topic store. System of a Down with the dead sea scrolls
@@Darisiabgal7573 I think his Dad is part of the monarchy of the evangelical church. Kiss the ring
One of the most amazing things the Internet provides is ACCESS to experts and scholars who freely share their knowledge with the world. Thank you Dr. Davis!
That bit at the end was fire, and I hope you'll send it to Evans. Even apart from worries about reputation downplaying, he's referencing people who did original work that he disagrees with (and presumably wants the viewer to disagree with), so at the very least he should provide a useful reference for people who want to dig further.
Dr. Davis, this was a fantastic examination of the claims made by Dr. Evans and as someone who admittedly only has a passing interest in the field, I have to say, this video hooked me from the beginning. I also want to echo the sentiment of quite a few other commenters by saying that ending it the way you did felt a bit like the speech in Braveheart (or Independence Day, if you're so inclined) and had me audibly whisper-shouting "YES!" at work. You've earned a new subscriber.
Wow. Thanks for the very flattering response. Welcome!
I really liked your "I am your colleague" bit. That sounded like a very appropriate; "Yes, I was once your student. But I have moved far past you, at least in this specific area of study, so in this I am no longer your student but a colleague." Or, to put it in the vernacular, "Eff you!"😁
12:20 “So a former student of mine who will go nameless…”
I’m not very familiar with the academic norms in this field. And this isn’t an academic publication but a TH-cam channel. But it seems like it would typically be good practice to mention fellow researchers by name and give them credit whenever possible.
Also to point people to the actual work.
There may be good reasons not to, and probably also plenty of bad ones.
If it was really bad work somehow, pointing people to it should be instructive right, and there should be actual responses to it in the literature as well.
This is such an amazing video. I watched the original interview as well and saw your comments there. Thanks for tackling some of Dr. Evans' claims. As you mentioned, TH-cam seems like a very odd venue to first report such claims. Hopefully, Sean and others see this response and temper their expectations of authenticity.
*A real scholar that approaches his work with integrity & honor. Appreciate your deep dive into these pathetic apologetic attempts to make goD's word real...*
*For all we know it may have been written as as play to out humanities foibles...*
Somehow this video dug up from the recesses of my memory a book I read decades ago. I think the title was “The Forger’s Handbook”, written by a British artist and professional forger based in Rome. Fascinating and enlightening read. It was about art pieces (paintings, drawings) but the advice on how to “resurface” a piece so to make its provenance look legitimate apply to every kind of artifact and strongly resonate with the case presented in the video.
That was a fantastic and, may I say, charitable examination of Dr Evans' claims. Your address to Dr Evans at the conclusion was exceptional and very true. Your channel has become a favorite of mine. Thank you, Dr Davis.
I saw the tag/headline for the original video, and was waiting for a response from someone who actually knew what was being discussed, and am not disappointed to see it was you. Well done, and you’re definitely his peer if not his superior
It was so hard to understand anything Dr. Evans was talking about when I first saw the livestream, but this video made it so much more clear. I see why now. It’s because Dr. Evans is not scroll scholar at all. His commentary was all made defensively to smooth over evidence that does not empower the evangelical narrative. It also lacked so much context that the lay person needed to understand what was happening and that you were able to beautifully describe here. Thanks for clearing things up for us.
This is just absurd. This reminds me so much of the "first century Mark" fiasco with Dan Wallace announcing it in a debate with Bart Ehrman, rather than in any scholarly format. It is the exact same thing: create massive drama by saying this wild stuff that hasn't been actually proven in peer review; reap lots of benefits and attention and stir the legal pot; reward.
That's what I thought...
I had the same thought immediately when McDowell released the 1st video with Evans
That's part of the grift.
That's EXACTLY what I was thinking also. I remember hearing Wallace make that claim and I was instantly skeptical; rightfully so. These instances are why I label Wallace, Evans, Habermas, and others of the same ilk as apoli-scholar-gists. They may have been trained in these disciplines, yet that doesn't mean that they will be honest about their methodology and scholarship.
This was pretty fascinating. I appreciate the work you put into this.
Thanks Erik!
The comparison of these fragments to ancient relics is perfect. If they contain little or nothing relevant, all that is left is to show them off and touch them to garner admiration and maybe a blessing.
Well what your really want is:
1. An inventory of what was in the Swiss Vault box in the beginning.
2. What has been sold from the box and to whom
3. What is left in the box, and a photographic represenation.
4. Who is the curator and designated conservator of the pieces.
5. How many times, when and by whom has the box been opened.
another really great, and thoroughly presented essay, You are amazing Dr. Kipp
Thank you.
@@DrKippDavis you are so welcome, I love your teaching
Also, him diminishing you to just a former student of his is ridiculous. That needs to be highlighted a little more too. I had no idea he was talking about you. I just finished a masters degree, and if someone still called me a student of theirs after 20 years of practicing on my own, I’d think they’re being completely egotistical
Appreciated your addressing Evans the way you did at the very end! He needed to hear that!!!
Dr. Evans really wants these fragments to be authentic. He says it doesn't matter to him but then he acts quite differently.
Thank you Dr. Davis for an interesting video on the Scrolls.
I concur on the issue of asking him to respect your status, in the context of the study of these texts, as more than just some "former student." One thing that he should consider. If you are indeed a "former student," he, as a faculty member, considered you to have met the qualifications for the educational degree that you obtained. So, his judgment of your capabilities contributed to your educational accomplishment, such that he should accept that you earned your accomplishments.
Fantastic video, and the dishonesty of those people never ceases to amaze me. So confident. So misleading. So prideful.
I love this interlude into the work behind the analysis of the fragments.
But I also eagerly await the next part of the main series 😁
Great video. It's sad when capable men turn into silly old duffers.
Always look forward to a new video from the good doctor 🐱
"Why do you call me good? There is only one who is good ..."
@@DrKippDavis Maybe you are the one :)
@@DrKippDavis Now you've got me choking on my wine.😁🍷
Being associated with a company that professionally manufactures dead sea scroll replicas is not a good look when it comes to promoting questionable forgeries as authentic tbh.
It does feel a little on the nose, doesn't it?
Yes.
Especially when one has a vested interest in their authenticity, both for fundraising and as an "intermediary" or "courier" in the sale of such.
Dr Davis thank you for your videos i hope i can learn from your analytic skills and apply them in my studies im currently writing a short exegesis on 1. Tim and its a real pain to go through every argument that was made about its authorship :|
Thank you Professor Davis for this clear examination of the issues surrounding Dr. Evans claims. I found myself wondering why he didn’t provide real paleographic argument against what your team discovered. Instead it was “my good friend, Weston Fields” believes”. And then unequivocally claims they are authentic!
I have always wondered why evangelicals seem to put the Dead Sea scrolls on such a pedestal. I had never thought about relics, thank you for a possible explanation.
Unlike the Dr Whosit you are a class act. I would never be able to make such a reasonable rebuttal as you did.
Thanks Dr. Kipp! Very informative.
The frequency with which McDowell has people with such spurious stories on his channel like this is kind of incredible.
It's an apologetics channel. The entire purpose is misinformation.
Apologetics is largely the same as used car salesmanship. It isn't about facts or truth, it's about getting the money for the car.
A fair call. Respect where it's due. And you're due respect. You've earned your title mate. I should probably say Dr Mate.
Yah, yes the next breakthrough in cold fusion will be presented during a local D&D group
In the Journal of the Evolution of the Chinese Fruitfly, perhaps? You know, the one where more than half of the articles are by members of the board?
@@KaiHenningsen that would have some appearance of legitimacy, technically, supposedly, almost, at least by comparison.
Although I like the main piece of "evidence" was the interviewee saying he was told "trust me bruh," by his superior in his club; I guess societies still flourish
Thank you for your efforts sir. I'm looking forward to part 3.
Kipp Davis WAS a former student, but is NOW Dr. Kipp Davis, a factual error that a professor shouldn't overlook.
This is fascinating. And the DSS are kind of interesting too. :)
Top notch presentation, as always.
Great video. I was watching Sean McDowell's one but when i saw in the comments that you'd responded, i hopped over here.
I wonder why Sean McDowell didn't add a link to this response under the original video. It's been over a year now.
To be clear, I think Sean McDowell has adopted a policy by which he will neither acknowledge my existence, nor respond to me. I think that he was very upset by the documentary I made a few years back about his father's conversion narrative, and that since then he has just hoped that I would go away.
@@DrKippDavis well, that's unfortunate, and also unlikely I suspect!
Thanks for your clarification on this topic!
Thanks. Sorry it took me a couple days to get through this. I remain enamored with your speaking/writing style it somehow make it more digestible for a layman. I agree with Paulogia and expect your audience to grow immensely on TH-cam. It is also nice to see you assert yourself, firmly.
Excellent analysis of this situation. Thanks for sharing your expertise on this. I must say, this sort of thing is disappointing. If the fragments are genuine, it would be so much better if they had maintained their provenance. If they are forgeries, it would be better if it were simply settled. This sort of thing just muddies the waters for people who have only a passing interest in such relics.
Sean’s face after Dr. Evans says, “Yeah, this is a done deal,” and then starts explaining what needs to happen to confirm his theory.
47:45 Notice how Dr Evans closes up his arms and goes into defensive mode when he says it
And he bites his lip. A sure sign of hesitation…
Great presentation, quite informative. Somehow, I've heard nothing about these scraps in the past few years.
this must have been hard to respond to, thanks for the video, commenting for the algorithm
This was excellent. I could really empathize with the final aside to Dr. Evans. It was strange to hear him refer to a working professional with both credentials and experience as 'former student' as if you had dropped out or done nothing of note with your education. Demeaning and frustrating.
Thanks Doc❤
My favourite photo is the one with the guy smoking over scroll fragments
Do I have your permission to share your videos on social media? My attempt to open the eyes of others, who are still misdirected.
Absolutely.
Are you keeping it unlisted for a reason? Just don't want to share if there's a reason
It will go public tomorrow, but I suck at this TH-cam thing. I probably should not have created the clip, since I was unaware it would link back to the whole video.
I didn't see it the first time. I just saw my name in the credits. OMG! That's so cool! 😀
Yeah!
I saw your presentation on Pinecreek's channel and was disappointed at Doug's demeanor. I loved your stuff, and then I thought "well heck, what am I doing listening to Doug if he doesn't care about this?" Subscribed. This was a fantastic video.
Thank you, and welcome!
"This is a done deal ... we just have to get the experts to run their tests"
What a cool area of study! Everyone is curious about this.
I have to say that your closing appeal notwithstanding, if I was Mr Evans I'd do exactly the opposite: I'd be wearing that "Dr Kipp Davis was my student" like a freaking badge of honor.
Really good examination. It was interesting to listen.
MythVision vid with you have brought me here. I much look forward to your vids. Just a note: am former Mormon, who has seen dead Sea scrolls misused and misrepresented to support mormonism
I used to work in the Oriental Institute Museum at the University of Chicago while I was getting my Masters in Hebrew Bible at the Divinity School. They had a fragment of the Dead Sea scrolls on display there, and I remember seeing it many times and thinking, it’s cool that this is here… but so what? If I remember correctly it was only about 2cm by 3cm and the only word you could make out was “lo.” And yet I stopped and stared at it a number of times, and it was always one of the things I made sure to show people who were visiting me.
On the other hand, we had one of the original Sennacherib Prisms on display. Even though the Sennacherib Prism is orders of magnitude more important to Biblical Studies than that one shred of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it got no where near as much attention.
All that to say: I can see why collectors would want fragments of the Dead Sea scrolls - they don’t have to be useful, they have to be captivating.
Also, I remember watching Dr. Evans’ discussion with Sean before I saw your reaction, and I laughed out loud when he said people didn’t use microscopes on the original Dead Sea Scrolls. I remember using a magnifying glass on the photocopy of a photograph of the Genesis Apocryphon in our Hebrew class! I used a magnifying glass to study friggin copy paper… and we’re supposed to think to think no one thought to use a microscope on the real thing?! Come on… it’s stupid to even think that.
That is an awesome story, but I have to know: why we're you reading 1QapGen in Hebrew class?
@@DrKippDavis It was a class with Dennis Pardee on the development and evolution of Hebrew, we started with Ugaritic, and examined how that and Akkadian and proto-siniatic might have influenced each other in the development of Hebrew. Then explored how the language evolved and letter formations changed up through Masoretic. We didn’t translate much more that 20 verses of 1QapGen, because it was just a stop on the tour.
I took a whole class on Ugaritic with Pardee, which was super fascinating, though admittedly I wasn’t good enough at Akkadian to get as much out of it as I wished.
I was never good enough at the languages to really succeed, and it’s more been over 8 years since I’ve even looked at a grammar. Unfortunately, I couldn’t hack it in academia, so I had to move on to other ways to put food on the table.
another example: The muon's experiments in order to test Einstien's theory. The textbook's explanation is ...junk but to know it mathematically I need to check the details (in literature) in I got: my Theory, that only treating "muon" as a wave (DeBrogile-Schrodinger) has a physical sense and not as a "particle" or idiotic Famous Twin since AD 1911,P. Langevin's hoax. Be aware: all Hollywood's Star War production will go .. bankrupt if they learn it finally! (I have confirmation from two professors, authors, Us, Smith College, and Leeds University (they made a typical mistake in their textbooks but they admitted I AM right!)
Not to nitpick, but you use the heading "Preaching to the Choir." I consider myself to be in "the Choir," but I saw red flag after red flag in McDowell's interview. I am concerned, when these fragments inevitably prove to be forgeries, that an air of doubt will attach itself to previous work on disputed texts that was conducted with proper controls. I can't shake the feeling that this interview was motivated by financial interests, possibly because there are negotiations to sell more fragments in the near future. Further, I have my suspicions that the venue was chosen because it would avoid the scrutiny of most critics (or so they hoped) yet appeal to potential buyers who, like McDowell (and I, for the record), approach these subjects from a confessional perspective. As someone who had planned to pursue academia as a career but became disillusioned with the "industry" it has become, I am selfishly relieved and affirmed in my decision to step away. It's still unsettling, though.
I think you are right about pretty much all of this.
I would agree with you. It is so disheartening that there is such a dark underbelly in regards to unprovenanced fragments and artifacts. So much unethical behavior that, really, has no consequences.
Excellent work
A wonderfully methodical analysis. Any chance someone could try to sue the scholars, including Dr. Kipp?
I'd like to know if and how many of the scrolls and fragments have had the inks analysed on a chemical and molecular level
I get the idea that suggesting tests that won't be done is a deliberate ploy so they can blame the authorities for not doing the tests.
And yes he is clearly try to use 'my student' to imply his word is stronger.
57:25 Respect!
Thanks for this.
As a layperson, what strikes me is that in a court case, the opposing expert witnesses will probably know each other. If its a jury trial, thats a big ask for any expert in this field. I would say its a case of buyer aware. Spend the money on authentication before buying them.
Thanks much for this video.
After watching the original interview and seeing your comments o was hoping you would make a video about it.
That you Dr Kipp
Dr. Kipp, even though I myself am certainly not any kind of biblical scholar, from the things said in this video, it is clear to me that Dr. Evans has only marginally more knowledge about the scrolls than I do. Of course, this is hyperbole, but it is the way he came across in his appearance on Sean MacDowell's show. He made himself look like not much more than a fan of the scrolls and their history rather than an academic who has spent decades studying them. He came across as someone who wants desperately to be recognized as an integral part of Dead Sea scroll analysis and scholarship so much that he is willing to lie in order to make his "announcement" appear to be a bombshell, when it's really just a set of debunked rumors. He pretty much tainted all of his future work in this area, by making him look untrustworthy as an academic. In short, he looks like someone willing to sell his soul for some attention.
Even if I had heard about this revelation by way of another source, it would still have appeared suspect to me. The first thing that didn't sound right was the idea that the original manuscript scribes would have taken the parchment and let it age and dry out before they used it. This is a ridiculous proposal. That makes no sense to us now and it wouldn't have made any sense to the ancient scribes. It would have made their work fragile rather than durable, making their work all for naught as it deteriorated before their eyes.
Next, even if they had done this, it would have been impossible to produce the level of scribal workmanship that they did if they had caused their materials to degrade this way before they used them. It would have been impossible for them to create a whole body of work without some of it being lost almost immediately.
Next to that, there is no obvious reason why you might have originally alleged that they were fake. It would really only make you look bad, as you were working with the scrolls for decades at that point without having notice it before. What?
Lastly, it seems really suspect that the suspicions of fakery were announced when they were. You we're currently working for the Green family's museum. Discovering that the scrolls they had spent so much time and money to acquire were not real damaged the reputation of your employer drastically. Both you and the Greens had nothing to gain by coming out with this true bombshell when you did.
I don't know you personally, but I am well aware of your credentials, so from the first time he named you as "one of his students", it rankled me. For you to have the access and level of knowledge of the scrolls that you did at the time of your discovery, it makes no sense to imply that you were his subordinate rather than his peer, which is how it sounded regardless of whether he really meant that you had been a past student of his or a current one.
At this point, I have to admit that I am a fan of you and your work. I know that you have other fans whose admiration is much more important than mine as they are your peers as well as your friends. I refuse to believe that you could have been disgraced as accused without that admiration and trust being diminished, which it obviously has not.
I am both disgusted and ashamed that someone would be willing to throw you under the bus, so to speak, for the sake of aggrandizing himself and his own reputation.
I also need to admit that I have a very negative opinion of the Green family, the owners of the Museum of the Bible. I worked for them personally for a few years, so I know how they operate. They are very conservative evangelical Christians, who have a deep need to show off their devotion and their wealth. Thus, seeing how they were willing to do anything and pay anything for to make their museum look important without investigating and authenticating their artifacts before purchase seems very on brand to me. Seeing as Dr. Evans himself is an evangelical, it only makes sense that he would not want to make his side, the evangelicas, look like the greedy fools they really are in this case.
Thanks for sharing. It is appreciated.
can the ink be dated ??
Today just got a lot better!
Dear Dr.Evans:"if wishes were horses, beggar's would ride..."
48:43 look into the financing of his "research". It sounds like he will be testifying on behalf of the defendants accused of selling forgeries or fakes. He’s building his credentials for the court record
I’m glad to see I’m not the first to see it
Even Sean didn't seem very convinced.
Agreed. He should probably say something about it.
Thanks.
Kipp, silly question that maybe I would know if I was more familiar with your editing. Did you or Sean's channel add your name overlay when mentioning "a former student of mine"?
That was me.
@@DrKippDavis nice. Glad I don’t have to be even more furious now…
I gave a shout out in the comments on the original video to read your comment and to come over and watch this video.
I get the impression that “the Truth” is more important to Evans than the truth.
Hey kipp im a nobody building a boardgame but im looking at qumran scrolls, in particular enoch and jubilees calender stuff. I wanted to host a short or long conversation about both the zadak and enoch calenders and their mechanics. I built what in my mind is a lost lunar calender and animated it too its pretty cool. Not sure if ur around but i’d love to maybe ask you a few questions and get your viewpoints on the matter of dead sea scroll calender stuff, u could post it as a video if u like it. I just want it as an accent for this pretty massive mythology encyclopedia ive created, lmk if ur bored and would love to talk to you
“…could go back to Jesus.” “…could go back to Christ.” The smallest glimmer of hope is desperately hoped for.
How
Did
I
Miss
This?
😑
Reminds me of the Joshua curse tablet or whatever. It's totally real! And no, we're not going to publish research. But trust us!
I'm fascinated by the universality of obfuscation, conflation, and hyperbole as primary tools of apologetics. It's not like Christianity is rife with fraudulent artifacts and forged parchments. But hey, they'll do whatever it takes to "prove" what they believe - in spite of the lack of evidence.
I find Craig A. Evans' seeming ignorance of how the scrolls are studied and his lack of knowledge about the ink jumping the cracks on all scrolls, a red flag. I find it hard to believe that ancient ink would stretch along the cracks in such a dry environment. I am making this comment before I finished the video.
I'm so used to watching and listening to people like Neil Degrasse Tyson explain things, that when a scholar acts like this guy, I get suspicious.
Dr. kill dropping the kowledge bomb
Did Evans not learn anything from First Century Mark?
Clearly not.
Perhaps he was thinking, "a former student...who is now a dirty atheist who listens to heavy metal music. "
Listening to Evans's story, he sounds like a mark who has become a con artist's best friend.
But, I have always listened to heavy metal music.
@@DrKippDavis So should we all, good sir.
I mean tbf if someone announces that they have a lot of money to spend on something it's not that surprising if they are later found to be in possession of that thing.
Both parties to a dispute over authenticity would have an interest in establishing that they are authentic, despite the dispute. It would be a convenient way of putting the matter to bed. For the vendor it takes off the pressure of the suit and for the purchaser it gives them satisfaction that the investment has now become more valuable (and marketable).
At least McDowell pressed Evans on his assertion as to the authenticity of the fragments in question.
This is what my friend and mentor Marty Abegg also said. I can agree in part, but then I must always push back that McDowell should know better than to use his channel as a clearing house for unvetted academic ideas.
There are certain church groups using DSS debunking to support their version of the Bible…
…it’s daunting to say the least.
I don’t even know where to starte with these folks
You should start with my "The Dead Sea Scrolls: Unapologetically" series! In one of the forthcoming videos I tackle directly some Christian apologetics that have misused the Scrolls.
So dang interesting!
this video is realy cool
I always asked myself if the authorities who first collected and observed the scrolls, kept some scrolls hidden or destroyed some scrolls which would have damaged traditional Judaism or Christianity. I mean they were kept secret for years. Anyone an opinion on that ?
Yes. They were not. None of the Scrolls were kept "secret for years," and there is no traction whatsoever to conspiracies positing their suppression.
@@DrKippDavis thanks Dr. Davis. I heard that scholars literally had to beg to the authorities to get access to scrolls and to study them. But thanks for clarification and this was just a question. Btw i love your videos.
@@richman8082If I’m not mistaken the documents that are under control of Jordan are the ones that “Western” scholars would like to study and have not been able to access. I **think** there was some discussion of that in a recent Mythvision live stream, as well as ongoing efforts to negotiate access. Basically it’s sensitive and seems to involve Jordan having had some sort of bad experience with scholars in the past (don’t quote me on that). But that’s very different than documents being suppressed.
@@bensalemi7783 thank you very much for your answer. I also didn't want to spread misinformation, its just I heard stories about officials having kept scrolls secret. And I thought it was a good timing to as the professor about the reliability of it.
Scroll Wars
I was curious why it seems to be so important to the apologists that these fragments be authentic?
Probably because those are the ones they bought. If only you know what you bought is a forgery, then it's as good as a real one...
As others have mentioned, even Sean does not look impressed, or even convinced.
The question is, is Craig lying or has he been duped?
I love it: proof of how Satan (a liar-J8:44, Aristotle's privation principle) works in Headquarters (1P4:17). A lot of other..forgeries to cover just ...idiocy of an "expert" to become the "Famous Star". An example just from Bible, John 20:28 where St.Thomas call Jesus "God and Lord" but in Commentaries there is almost nothing on it (why?) but just historical sources and the recent archeological one just proves my suspicion that such verse is just a mockery on the Cesar Diocletian claim for such "Title" as all Synoptics Gospels (esp. Mk 10:18, etc) and other writings never attach the title "God" to Jesus (as "Son of God"- Fr. J.M. Bochenski OP, logician from divine Warsaw-Lviv School of Logic mockery about "the pregnant God-Father with a belly") but only to Father as the God/"theos" (one learns from Scholars that John was not a perfect in Greek as others (smarter) writers. A lot of examples of Liars-devils in Akademia and the Church; fortunately, Free TT, non-Satanic Media now allows us to teach...poor sheep despite Idiots at Govs, Akademia, and Church, not to mention the perfectly dumb mass media. Today, the feast of St.Athanasius (contra Arius) and the beginning of Christological controversies, You, Akademia@Vatican's lunatics (and Sanhedrin, Muslim's Pope) will pay a ..Final price if U don't know Rev. B.Russell's definition of description (in PM,1910) that formally (in mathematical logic language ) explains plainly the Issue but you, Humans cannot get it.
@01:20.... That apparition strangely resembles you if I hold the phone sideways.....
Mmm....... must be my imagination.....
LOL.
@Kipp Davis *A video outing a few more details regarding the scrolls. Wasn't sure if you were aware of this.* th-cam.com/video/aPQx7nvsh9s/w-d-xo.html
"Disclaimer:
This channel is based on facts, rumors and speculations"
No further questions...
uuuh, spicy drama!