Awesome video. Very nice result, too. I read an account from a British captain in India from the 1800s who describes the making of pattern welded damascus gun barrels. The workers stripped the metal rings off British casks and forge welded them together. Rusted metal rings were preferred. If they weren't rusty enough the officer describes the workers intentionally rusting more them before use. Presumably the rusted iron oxide provided a thin layer of iron or lower carbon steel in the final product that etched white and allowed a pattern to develop in what was otherwise a monosteel billet?
Thanks man I am going to look further into this, I love reading about this kind of thing and then try to put it in to a piratical application. The results can be surprising and educational. Thanks for the info man, take care and be safe.
@@BIGDOGFORGE In the 1920s and 30s some researchers in the US were trying to mimic the pattern welding in early viking swords which as you know were primarily twists. They surmised the visible pattern in the twist came from iron oxide or scale trapped between the spiral twists, down in the grooves. When twisted tight enough the grooves close up and iron oxide was basically in it's own atmosphere free environment and reduced back to iron or very low carbon steel then welded to the surrounding steel adding contrast to the pattern. That was their theory. At any rate the key to all this may be a reducing environment.
This is sounding more intriguing by the minute. I just put some hi carbon steel out in the weather to let it oxidize naturally some 1095 and 1084 I will not mix these when I forge weld but the different carbon content may yield a different result. And I will use this experiment to test the the reducing theory. I am going to film this experiment, do you mind if I refer to you as the inspiration for this particular experiment. I'm excited about this one, let me know what you think.
@Luke Blizzard Hey guys - speaking of Damascus and historical smithing in India, here's a link to an excellent vid on recreating "Wootz" damascus using a crucible steel process. It wont help on the issue whether or not and how much to clean beforehand for doing a pattern welded damascus billet, but it is damascus from the same region and timeframe, and it's really fascinating to watch. Cheers. th-cam.com/video/OP8PCkcBZU4/w-d-xo.html
Oh my gracious me! You don't know how long i have wanted to see machining integrated into Damascus patterning. I have so many ideas but so few lathes and mills(none, i have none mills or lathes)
Thank you for doing this. It has baffled me for a long time now watching blacksmiths obsess over cleaning the metal to prepare for welding. If a wire brush won't get it off, it doesn't need to come off. By fluxing and folding, you push all the impurities out. In fact, I am pretty sure that with 1 more fold, this "dirty damascus" would have been even better.
Hi Tim my kids and I love watching your videos. My son Travis and daughter Zoe wanted to say hi. I don’t know what it is because it’s not like kids to enjoy forging videos, but you have my children silently watching every video. Thanks for all your efforts From the Wilson family in Australia.
That's a real groovy looking piece of damascus. Flux should clean your steel as well as protect the steel from air. The only thing that I've never been able to burn off the steel is mill scale no matter what flux I use. Beyond that, rust, grease, . . . burn of pretty well with good flux, including borax.
One of the the first things I noticed about your technique was how fastidious you were in cleaning your metal before forge welding, so I can understand the hangdog look on your face in the beginning of the video. I watch a lot of forging videos and not many come close to you in that regard. Another guy I like to watch on TH-cam, named shurap, does amazing work with that dirty technique. He soaks in diesel, like you mentioned, and also uses lots of flux. He heats, then fluxes a few times then uses a light hammer and gently taps on the billet against a block of wood to sorta ease into the process before he starts using using heavier hammers or machines. Well, thanks for another great video.
That came out looking great. Love the experimenting with damascus Tim. When I welded the bicycle chain it was full of oil, well and big holes. But let it soak and put flux on it 4 or five times to clean it with extra soakage. Ended up with a tiny crack but overall good weld.
Cool man... experiments that work out are great. I have both steels handy, thinking I’ll do a repeat on your method. Thanks for your efforts to share with us.
This has always baffled me as well. We spend more time grinding the metal clean than we do actually forging the billet. Guys use acetone to glean all the grease off only to dunk their billet in kerosene and throw it in the fire. I'm glad someone tested this. Well done!
Nice! It's always satisfying watching a nice thick billet being turned on a lathe. I think the main principle about cleaning the steel for damascus (and forge welding carbon steels in general) is to do whatever you can to reduce the chances of failure, not that those steps always _need_ to be done, but it can get quite expensive when you lose a large billet of steel plus all the propane and time wasted to forge it down, especially if making knives for your main income. I think the pattern may also have a cleaner, more high definition look when the surfaces are thoroughly cleaned and protected from scaling during the process without the extra decarburization between the layers from the oxides, although I know temperature control also plays an important role in avoiding "fuzzy" looking layers. Anyway, thanks for sharing, it's always fun seeing what your up to. Sorry for not commenting much anymore btw, but I'm still here watching your vids :) Take care
I just forge welded an old, extremely rusty wood bandsaw blade (a residential size, so it was quite thin) and it welded up very well. Better than usual, and faster to be honest. I’ve never been one to be too concerned with super clean material, though. I forge in coal, so I get all kinds of ash, clinker and whatnot in the billet anyhow.
Your voice is very relaxing to listen to 😁 That was some amazing looking damascus there, especially as you rewrote the rule book and then shredded it with this video. Good work!
when I started making Damascus I didn't even grind off mill scale and used PA # 6 coal!! I think I had more problems with dirty fires than steel. In the 70-80s not much info on making Damascus!!!! thanks for video
I cleaned the flux off some incolnel welding rods and twisted them up in some cable Damascus, welded fine and looked cool after etching because of all the nickel but where it crossed the edge it wouldn’t stay sharp. Just wanted to let you know it forge welds up really nice.
A beautiful piece Tim! Great to see you back in action too :) Shame you had to take so much material off because of the crack but still, impressive to say it wasn't even cleaned. Good job Sir!
That was awesome dog. I never would of guest nor would I try because steel is to expensive so I say thank you now I can save some cash. thank you so much... :)
Well if that dont beat all. Lol. I've seen it done so many ways. More often than not it welds up good. Sometimes it's just not going to. . Glad your billet did well for you. 🙏blessings your way sirSir Crawford out 🧙♂️
I've noticed that the faster I get my stacks up to heat and compressing them vice versa is directly relative to them sticking, also if your steels forging temp windows don't overlap very good chance of success goes down, in my exp
I've seen the way Japanese smiths make blades, and there's NOTHING clean about the process! From dipping into a muddy slurry, to rolling the material in grass, or hay, some type of vegetation, then hammering the shit out of it.
I can imagine you caused several heart attacks in machinists when you used the angle grinder on that piece while in the lathe. I can honestly say I don't think I have ever seen someone do that before.
Probably very much more accurate to reality in the old days. I don't see those guys cleaning the hell out of their steel. Heat it, flux it up and forge it. Seems like what they would have done. Excellent and impressive video sir
I enjoyed the video and I'm pretty sure that the original smiths didn't worry about the cleanliness as much as temperature control. Have a great week , see ya Sun. 😎
Interesting experiment. I've watched Alec Steele make his damascus billets and it doesn't appear that he grinds off the mill scale. When i make my damascus, i do. For me it's more about limiting the chance of failure and wasting my pricey 1095. It would save quite a bit of time in prep work, if i knew it would weld up no problem leaving the mill scale on. Thanks for the video!!!
Hey Brother, I asked Shurap about the kerosene and though we only see the successes, his blades always tend to come out perfect. That said, when he responded, he'd told me that the kerosene adds some carbon when in the forge and actually helps with the welding. I haven't tried this yet, but I do have 2 billets sitting in kerosene now. Thoughts?
Hope you saved all the lathe shavings for some Damascus as well. Maybe a canoe Damascus or something like that, would love to see the results of that, mmmm maybe mix it with all the scale that comes off during the weld process with ground up carbon mixed in to help burn off the oxygen in the scale, would he a good science project for us to watch
Great video Tim, I wonder instead of forging down the ridges after twisting maybe grinding them down would prevent some inclusions and maybe you would get a sort of ladder pattern kind of thing going. Possibly the next experiment for the channel. Keep up the good work👍
Would it be possible to get you to try an experimental Damascus pattern? What if you create a e.g. 100 layer billet, grind it clean and them run over the surfaces with the TIG-touch. meting the top layers in e.g. a zig zag pattern. And then forge it into a blade and se how the pattern turns out?
If you leave the spider bodies on the steel while you forge, then your end product will be impregnated with magical properties. The slightest cut from such steel is like being bitten by 1,000 spiders at once. At least, that's what Confucius said (possibly).
Awesome video. Very nice result, too. I read an account from a British captain in India from the 1800s who describes the making of pattern welded damascus gun barrels. The workers stripped the metal rings off British casks and forge welded them together. Rusted metal rings were preferred. If they weren't rusty enough the officer describes the workers intentionally rusting more them before use. Presumably the rusted iron oxide provided a thin layer of iron or lower carbon steel in the final product that etched white and allowed a pattern to develop in what was otherwise a monosteel billet?
Thanks man I am going to look further into this, I love reading about this kind of thing and then try to put it in to a piratical application.
The results can be surprising and educational.
Thanks for the info man, take care and be safe.
@@BIGDOGFORGE In the 1920s and 30s some researchers in the US were trying to mimic the pattern welding in early viking swords which as you know were primarily twists. They surmised the visible pattern in the twist came from iron oxide or scale trapped between the spiral twists, down in the grooves. When twisted tight enough the grooves close up and iron oxide was basically in it's own atmosphere free environment and reduced back to iron or very low carbon steel then welded to the surrounding steel adding contrast to the pattern. That was their theory. At any rate the key to all this may be a reducing environment.
This is sounding more intriguing by the minute.
I just put some hi carbon steel out in the weather to let it oxidize naturally some 1095 and 1084 I will not mix these when I forge weld but the different carbon content may yield a different result.
And I will use this experiment to test the the reducing theory.
I am going to film this experiment, do you mind if I refer to you as the inspiration for this particular experiment.
I'm excited about this one, let me know what you think.
@@BIGDOGFORGE sure no prob, good luck
@Luke Blizzard Hey guys - speaking of Damascus and historical smithing in India, here's a link to an excellent vid on recreating "Wootz" damascus using a crucible steel process. It wont help on the issue whether or not and how much to clean beforehand for doing a pattern welded damascus billet, but it is damascus from the same region and timeframe, and it's really fascinating to watch. Cheers.
th-cam.com/video/OP8PCkcBZU4/w-d-xo.html
Nice job, thanks for sharing the process.
1 minute in and i love this guy. Never seen him befor.
Thank you Stephen and thanks for watching..
Beautiful!!!
Oh my gracious me! You don't know how long i have wanted to see machining integrated into Damascus patterning. I have so many ideas but so few lathes and mills(none, i have none mills or lathes)
I know how you feel to tool die maker machinist for over 30 years no equipment can't do a damn thing😢
Love watching this, it's super relaxing. Truly the equivalent of Bob Ross for smithing.
never even been in the same room as a forge but i love watching this
Great video Tim I will say you are the KING of Damascus. Beautiful piece I love that pattern. Thank you
Simulated wood grain in metal is usually a beautiful thing. I love the "wood" of the "iron tree".
Thank you for doing this. It has baffled me for a long time now watching blacksmiths obsess over cleaning the metal to prepare for welding. If a wire brush won't get it off, it doesn't need to come off. By fluxing and folding, you push all the impurities out. In fact, I am pretty sure that with 1 more fold, this "dirty damascus" would have been even better.
Awesome informational educational video experience Y'alls God Bless Ya
Glad you enjoyed it
Hi Tim my kids and I love watching your videos. My son Travis and daughter Zoe wanted to say hi. I don’t know what it is because it’s not like kids to enjoy forging videos, but you have my children silently watching every video.
Thanks for all your efforts
From the Wilson family in Australia.
So one could call this ... Smithbusters
^^ seriously underrated comment!
Ha
Very interesting demonstration Tim!!
Thanks for the video's for our education and entertainment
Your a hoot to watch. I believe I’ve seen every video of yours and there is never dull or non-informative part. Awesome work Tim. 👏👏
I love the tongs with the little hands
"we didn't clean our metal?! What will they say about us now?!" LMAO
We shall see: huh? I love watching things disproved! Gr8 demonstration!
Thank you
That's a real groovy looking piece of damascus. Flux should clean your steel as well as protect the steel from air. The only thing that I've never been able to burn off the steel is mill scale no matter what flux I use. Beyond that, rust, grease, . . . burn of pretty well with good flux, including borax.
Thanks for watching and take care
I would love to have a wedding band out of that
Awesome informational educational video experience Y'alls
Interesting experiment and a great pattern, thanks Tim.
Awesome looking
Thanks man and thanks for watching.
Ohh your in so much trouble with the pure metal club! Great stuff Tim!
Awesome work Tim! Thanks for sharing and God Bless you sir!
Thanks for watching M T take care and be safe.
I just did a six layer multi billet damaacus w no flux and it came out amazing so i say push the boundaries!
Thanks for watching and I will.
Yeah it’s said flux isn’t needed to weld. But chances of failure are higher. I’d damn for sure fail without flux or Atleast a kerosene soak.
Great looking piece there Big Dog.
One of the the first things I noticed about your technique was how fastidious you were in cleaning your metal before forge welding, so I can understand the hangdog look on your face in the beginning of the video. I watch a lot of forging videos and not many come close to you in that regard. Another guy I like to watch on TH-cam, named shurap, does amazing work with that dirty technique. He soaks in diesel, like you mentioned, and also uses lots of flux. He heats, then fluxes a few times then uses a light hammer and gently taps on the billet against a block of wood to sorta ease into the process before he starts using using heavier hammers or machines. Well, thanks for another great video.
That was awesome tim thanks for sharing brother
No worries my friend and thanks for watching
Very nice!!
Thanks!
That came out looking great. Love the experimenting with damascus Tim. When I welded the bicycle chain it was full of oil, well and big holes. But let it soak and put flux on it 4 or five times to clean it with extra soakage. Ended up with a tiny crack but overall good weld.
I just found you due to searching for "great bellows". This is my second video and I had to sub. I like the genuine feel.
Wow Tim that was really interesting!! I have a roll of cable but have not got my nerve up to try it. Thank You Wayne
That’s great I’m impressed with the way it turned out with only one small cold shut in the material
Looks great, even cleaned I bet you would have flaws. Only one thing I know that is perfect 👼 !!!
Thanks for all you do Tim!!
Cool man... experiments that work out are great. I have both steels handy, thinking I’ll do a repeat on your method. Thanks for your efforts to share with us.
This has always baffled me as well. We spend more time grinding the metal clean than we do actually forging the billet. Guys use acetone to glean all the grease off only to dunk their billet in kerosene and throw it in the fire. I'm glad someone tested this. Well done!
Loving this! Noticed you're sporting a Steele sledge there sir, I'm super jealous, just found you and I'm glad I did!
Nice! It's always satisfying watching a nice thick billet being turned on a lathe.
I think the main principle about cleaning the steel for damascus (and forge welding carbon steels in general) is to do whatever you can to reduce the chances of failure, not that those steps always _need_ to be done, but it can get quite expensive when you lose a large billet of steel plus all the propane and time wasted to forge it down, especially if making knives for your main income. I think the pattern may also have a cleaner, more high definition look when the surfaces are thoroughly cleaned and protected from scaling during the process without the extra decarburization between the layers from the oxides, although I know temperature control also plays an important role in avoiding "fuzzy" looking layers. Anyway, thanks for sharing, it's always fun seeing what your up to. Sorry for not commenting much anymore btw, but I'm still here watching your vids :) Take care
I've had obsessively cleaned steel fail to weld and completely uncleaned cable stick together just fine. Damascus is weird stuff sometimes.
I agree, thanks for watching
I just forge welded an old, extremely rusty wood bandsaw blade (a residential size, so it was quite thin) and it welded up very well. Better than usual, and faster to be honest. I’ve never been one to be too concerned with super clean material, though. I forge in coal, so I get all kinds of ash, clinker and whatnot in the billet anyhow.
Your voice is very relaxing to listen to 😁
That was some amazing looking damascus there, especially as you rewrote the rule book and then shredded it with this video.
Good work!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I certainly did Sir!
I lone how the tongs have hands thats creative
Great pattern!
when I started making Damascus I didn't even grind off mill scale and used PA # 6 coal!! I think I had more problems with dirty fires than steel. In the 70-80s not much info on making Damascus!!!! thanks for video
That turned out very well Tim, I think when you made sure the steels had no rust, dust, scale or grease, that you cauld say they were 'clean' anyway.
Very cool nice job Sir!!!
I cleaned the flux off some incolnel welding rods and twisted them up in some cable Damascus, welded fine and looked cool after etching because of all the nickel but where it crossed the edge it wouldn’t stay sharp. Just wanted to let you know it forge welds up really nice.
Very cool thanks man
A beautiful piece Tim! Great to see you back in action too :) Shame you had to take so much material off because of the crack but still, impressive to say it wasn't even cleaned. Good job Sir!
Let's rock out some Damascus!!!!
Huge fan love your channel and have finally subscribed have a great day
That was awesome dog. I never would of guest nor would I try because steel is to expensive so I say thank you now I can save some cash. thank you so much... :)
Thanks for watching and take care.
Great video. Sweet pattern.
Awesome. Would love to see how this billet is used in next project. Can it be turned into a gun barrel? That would be the most coolest barrel ever
So the morale of the story is: don't clean your room!
Shahin Gransar
Yup!
Don't waste time cleaning your room, go make something useful instead!
Well if that dont beat all. Lol. I've seen it done so many ways. More often than not it welds up good. Sometimes it's just not going to. .
Glad your billet did well for you.
🙏blessings your way sirSir
Crawford out 🧙♂️
Thanks for watching Daniel
Absolutely amazing!
If I could only hear you...
Awesome job sir. Love watching your videos. I feel I have learned so much just from watching them and hopefully one day I can enter the trade.
AWSOME experament
Thanks and thanks for watching
Hopefully it all comes out clean. Would be a nice pattern ring
Mabe your jeweler can send a demo piece back to you ??? I'm interested in the outcome.
or atleast take some photos so he can share the finished product?
Honestly, I was waiting for you to pull a Rory May, and say "keep it dirty" 🤣🤣🤣. Nicely done Tim! I cannot wait to shake your hand at QS!!! 😮👍⚒️⚒️❤️
Thanks for watching my friend.
Dirty Damascus? That’s all I make! Love the video!
Thanks Jared
Awesome video Big Dog, really enjoyed it.
Love your videos!!! Love the roll!!!
This one is for you Roxanne, I need to find your address and get this sent out to you. Thanks for watching my friend and take care.
Thank you so much!!
Roxanne Gaudet
2203 Highway 1
Church Point
Digby Co.
Nova Scotia
Canada
B0W 1M0
Way to go,.... gettin out of the box
I've noticed that the faster I get my stacks up to heat and compressing them vice versa is directly relative to them sticking, also if your steels forging temp windows don't overlap very good chance of success goes down, in my exp
You couldn't be more correct. Biggest problem I see is people working cold steel.
Also use enough flux
Great job as always!
I find what you do as very inspiring
Enjoyed and gave a Thumbs Up also
Sweet experiment looks damn good for dirty pattern welded steel ; ) lol
Just a big Thank you for your time and hard work God bless have a great day⛪📖
Really cool!
That's awsome Tim. You used flux i'm telling Roy!! 😁🤣🤣 ⚒on!!
Shhhhhhh, he will never know..
Thanks for watching Ben take care and be safe my friend.
Becarfil Ben, Roy may rant 😎
@@jasongannon7676 Hey to be clear, i'm not the fluxer on camera... I do it secret and never talk about it... you never read that Roy.
Very neat!!
Thanks Tom and thanks for watching
i am wondering if they cleaned the hell out of their metal in the old days of forging before all these cleaning products were around
I've seen the way Japanese smiths make blades, and there's NOTHING clean about the process! From dipping into a muddy slurry, to rolling the material in grass, or hay, some type of vegetation, then hammering the shit out of it.
Nice work.
You should do one with steel cables as is and soaked in kerosene !
AMAZING WORK MY FRIEND! YOU ARE A LEGEND!
Very interesting!
Thanks Tony and thanks for watching
I can imagine you caused several heart attacks in machinists when you used the angle grinder on that piece while in the lathe. I can honestly say I don't think I have ever seen someone do that before.
Nice content! Love you vids, Tim.
Maybe you have Mad skills!
Probably very much more accurate to reality in the old days. I don't see those guys cleaning the hell out of their steel. Heat it, flux it up and forge it. Seems like what they would have done. Excellent and impressive video sir
"spider bodies".,,,,LOL !!!
Thanks for watching Bud
I gotta get me a Scrappy!
Nice job tim
Thanks Gregory.
It was lot's of fun to do, thanks for watching my friend and take care.
I enjoyed the video and I'm pretty sure that the original smiths didn't worry about the cleanliness as much as temperature control. Have a great week , see ya Sun. 😎
Nice👍👍
Interesting experiment. I've watched Alec Steele make his damascus billets and it doesn't appear that he grinds off the mill scale. When i make my damascus, i do. For me it's more about limiting the chance of failure and wasting my pricey 1095. It would save quite a bit of time in prep work, if i knew it would weld up no problem leaving the mill scale on. Thanks for the video!!!
I got a tip to try with 1080 in stead of 1095 because of the quenching speed of it vs 15n20
I prefer hot cutting and folding my billet too. You built that lathe,too?!
Hey Brother, I asked Shurap about the kerosene and though we only see the successes, his blades always tend to come out perfect. That said, when he responded, he'd told me that the kerosene adds some carbon when in the forge and actually helps with the welding. I haven't tried this yet, but I do have 2 billets sitting in kerosene now. Thoughts?
Fantastic video. Thanks for taking the time to make and upload this!
Thank you Neill and thanks for watching..
Nice job
Hope you saved all the lathe shavings for some Damascus as well. Maybe a canoe Damascus or something like that, would love to see the results of that, mmmm maybe mix it with all the scale that comes off during the weld process with ground up carbon mixed in to help burn off the oxygen in the scale, would he a good science project for us to watch
Very cool man, it's on the list.
Thanks for watching
Great video Tim, I wonder instead of forging down the ridges after twisting maybe grinding them down would prevent some inclusions and maybe you would get a sort of ladder pattern kind of thing going. Possibly the next experiment for the channel. Keep up the good work👍
Great video you like living on edge
Would it be possible to get you to try an experimental Damascus pattern?
What if you create a e.g. 100 layer billet, grind it clean and them run over the surfaces with the TIG-touch. meting the top layers in e.g. a zig zag pattern. And then forge it into a blade and se how the pattern turns out?
I like The Idea I'll See What I can do.
Is that for ring making?
Pleasure to watch you forging. that's what i like to see.
Thanks for watching Ron,take care and be safe.
If you leave the spider bodies on the steel while you forge, then your end product will be impregnated with magical properties. The slightest cut from such steel is like being bitten by 1,000 spiders at once.
At least, that's what Confucius said (possibly).