Run Your Reverb & Effects on Inserts or Sends? Pre-Fader or Post-Fader??
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มิ.ย. 2024
- Should you be running your effects in pre-fader or post-fader mode? Are there reasons to do one over the other? How about putting your effects right on the inserts? Justin Colletti gives you the best practices.
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I use pre-fader sends on kick, snare and toms and send those to a parallel compression drum aux and use it's fader to blend in with the dry drums. This is so the gain reduction on the compressor will always stay the same. I do the same with parallel compression on vox. Once you have the compressor hitting where you want, you need to keep it there. If you do these techniques with post-fader sends, your parallel aux channel will be all over the place whenever you adjust the dry elements' volume.
Cool I'm gonna try that, thanks for sharing!
And then when you've got the balance you like between uncompressed and compressed do you group the two faders so that their balance stays the same?
@@theowhite Yup. I have a group for my drum bus and parallel drum crush aux.
Please do a tutorial on it
Saying this as a teacher: you are GOOD at explaining things, mister! The pace and emphasis is just my groove. Thanks from Belgium!
Thanks, Justin. Pre-fader is good when you want to automate the wet and dry signals separately.
Haven't seen the video yet, but I have a sidenote on this issue that is being overlooked 99% of the time when this topic is discussed: It also depends on the Plugin! Some Plugins only really develop their magic when there is a certain amount/level of signal passing through. These kinds of plugins usually have a "wet/dry button which helps you regulate how much you want to affect the signal. "Space Delay" by IK Multimedia comes to mind. I love the plugin, but while you CAN use it on send-busses, it's best as an insert in my experience. Will watch the video later on.. but since this info is ignored 99% of the time I'm confident this information is worth giving. If this video turns out to be the 1% when I see it, I will formally apologize! :D
Very well explained thanks Justin.
Another badass video, really good at explaining things, Big Thanks!!
Love the pre fader tip to verbs for FX! Always trying to get the modern washy intro and breakdown sounds in pop. This is HUGE. Especially for some pitches down formant affected vocal samples. 🙏
Thank you so much for this
Thanks! This is so clear. You do a great job explaining it so simply.
So great to hear! Thanks for tuning in. Hope to see more of you around the channel.
-Justin
Thanks for sharing!
Helpful video, thank you Justin (and good question by your subscriber about pre and post faders).
When setting up effects, sometimes it is helpful to use pre-fader to hear the effect only.
great explanation
Thank you for the videos! I've been loving them. I use pre-fader when I want to sidechain my reverb to the original source. I'll have two sends, one to an aux with no output with pre-fader, then one to the reverb with a compressor after the reverb sidechained to the first aux, so the verb will duck out of the way when the vocals hit and then swell back in.
Excellent 👌🎵
Hi Justin, I'm so sorry for my delay Happy new year I hope you will always be healthy and happy with your family,
Yes finally we come to one of the most important part of audio engineering,
Post fader + volume
Pre fader - pan
.........
Tnx a million for this episode
thx so much - very helpful! Greets from Switzerland
Great video Mr! I'd like to add that I have run into some developers that don't report correctly delay compensation in their plugins forcing you into certain positions / places or else you'll get delays, combing, etc... ;) Check that too
Perfect explanation. New Content Creator should know about this instead of uploading their "unmixed" audio. Keep up the good work mister
Very nicely explained, for me, a beginner, I would have liked an example for Logic too, as I‘m more a visual type who wants to see how all this is installed and set up (vocal track sent to a bus with a reverb and all this ..., of course you can‘t make a video for me, but perhaps you know a link where this is explained for a beginner).
Thanks Justin.. Well explained!!...
I have a question!!😆..
I've seen some good mixers who mix "HOT".and what this seems to mean is that their master buses cud b hitting 0db or even red.. In such cases, how do they send it to a mastering engineer, Since there seems not to be any headroom or can you Jus turn down the master bus fader and everything will b ok?
Fantastic as always Sir!
Here’s my +$0.02.
A) I always begin this discussion with an explanation of Signal Flow, and then Series vs Parallel processing. Once people understand that, the rest is much easier to digest. Until they understand that, they may learn what to do, but not how it works. I think it would be great if you did a fundamentals video like this, which come to think of it you probably already have. But then maybe a brief refresher at the top of these ‘next step’ videos, and maybe the proverbial TH-cam ‘link’s in the description’ to the more in-depth exploration.
B) You got into explaining how Pre-fader inserts (in series) can behave kinda like Post-fader Send-Returns (parallel). I’d add that’s because inside of that processor, is a new miniature Send-Return parallel mixer, built right in. It may have 1-level control or 2, on faders or knob(s), and can be labeled Wet/Dry, or Mix, or Blend, but they are essentially the same. The original input signal is “multed”/split into two, one of them goes directly (dry) to one side of the say mix knob, the other goes through the processing (wet) and then to the other side of the mix knob. If you have a single mix knob control, turning all the way to one side is 100% Dry, the other side is 100% Dry, and in the middle is a 50/50 mix. By turning that 1 knob, or pushing and pulling two faders, you are blending, mixing, two signals into one. Then when you find your sweet spot, that output signal IS Post-fader. But not post-channel fader, post internal fader inside the processor.
Recap: One signal goes in, gets split into two. One of those gets processed (wet), the other does not (dry). Those two go into a mini-mixer, and get blended back into one signal coming out.
C) The important thing here, is that you have locked that wet/dry relationship together, and inserted it Pre-Channel Fader. (or more usefully at times, Pre-Bus Fader.) Once you have the Sound you like dialed in, you can adjust or Automate the Mixer Faders freely, to set their levels in relation to the other channels or busses, without fear of upsetting the sound you had set on any particular channel or bus.
Hope that helps, and didn’t convolute things further.
(Next topic: Convolution vs Algorithm....)
To comment on my own comment, either for anyone else interested, or to get it out of my own head:
D) I believe that the first processors to get these internal parallel wet/dry mix knobs were time based effects. I also believe that their utility was in the live world where you may ‘sub-down’ say your 8 drum channels to a single drum bus fader, same with keys, vox, gtrs, etc. That allows you to set the instruments levels relative to themselves, and then mix the show on the group faders.
Where do you put the fx? If you use the traditional board send/returns, every time you change the mix, you have to reset the FX returns. However, if you insert FX on the busses, in series and Pre-Bus Fader, then set the wet/dry relationship In the FX processor itself, then that relationship is locked and you can mix the show with one less thing to think about. (Obviously over-simplified)
E) Also in the past, and in live, you had limited resources both financial and temporal, that gave way to effective strategies with fantastic results. In live or in the studio, you might have a few of the best processors, but not dozens of them. And, especially live, but also in the studio, even if you had dozens, you didn’t have time to set them all. Plus don’t forget recall. AND in analog, more is often less due to the always lurking noise floors.
So the usual technique was to do more with less. You wouldn’t put a reverb on every channel, you would sent many channels to a single auxiliary bus, and that bus would feed a single reverb, then return back into the console and get blended in. Send/Returns...check! On an SSL 4000, I believe you only had 4-mono aux sends, and 2-stereo. (I know, putting multiple channels into common effects also glues them together in the same acoustic space. Artistically that’s what we’re gonna do, but bear with me. Many engineers found this limiting as to all the things we may want to do.)
F) In the studio, and now in the DAW, as well as in more and more plugins these days, processors with internal Mix knobs are more and more common, and useful for the same functions as above. But it’s not just utilitarian, and having it doesn’t mean you have to use it. Plus there’s (now) multiple ways to skin a cat.
Dynamic processors, compressors, limiters, tape/tube/transformer saturation plugins, etc. All benefit by having the ability to setup a sound Inside of the processor itself.
Sometimes you want to:
1) Insert the processor in series, fully wet, then process until you get the sound you like, done. This is like traditional EQ, Compressors on a channel strip.
PG-Rated
Sometimes you wanna take one of two parallel in-line approaches:
2) Insert the processor in series, push the processing beyond the edge, see what else she’s got when she’s reaching for it, then from fully wet, blend back in a bit of that dry signal to taste, and keep the final signal edgy but respectable.
PG-13 if you will.
3) Insert the processor in series, take that processing into overdrive, make her show you everything she’s got, drive her till she can’t take anymore, then pull back just enough that she doesn’t completely fall over. Then, close the door. While only listening to the original dry signal, crack that door open and gradually blend in just as much heat from that wet signal as you deem appropriate for adult audiences.
Let’s call this Rated-R.
And...other times,
4) Just because a processor has a Mix knob, you don’t have to use it. You can also just create your own parallel in your mixer.
Remember, on an analog console, when you split a Channel’s signal out through an Aux Send, hit a Processor, then come back into an Aux Return, that’s Parallel processing. And that’s what it’s made for.
When you do that, you generally set the processor’s Mix knob to fully wet, as if it wasn’t even there, because you’re gonna Mix that wet signal back in using your Aux Returns on the board. And your original dry signal is still in your board following it’s original, parallel path.
Anybody watching this video, and reading this comment, has at least heard of “Parallel Compression”. Especially on Drums. Well this is one way it’s done. Rather than using say a reverb on the Aux, you insert your favorite Compressor, send a few of your drum channels into it, and follow point 3) above. And the drums get sexy.
X-Rated
It’s about to get real kinky though...
4B) A variation of that, is to instead of the using the Aux Returns, which usually route straight to the mix, you could also bring that signal back into another Channel Strip of its own, which has a couple of additional benefits. First, if you’re at one end of the board, bringing the Wet Return back on channels right next to their original Dry sends, makes it easier to blend them together.
But also, the Channel Strip has processing built into it, at least EQ but possibly also dynamics. What that means is that say doing a point 3) and now she’s coming back into the board in full uncontrolled sonic ecstasy. You blend that back into the dry mix, and it gets really hot really fast, and you can push it to say an 85/15 mix before it gets too much. You’re lovin’ it.
But now let’s say that the mix just can’t get enough of that deep guttural moaning, but it just can’t handle any more of that screaming. Well because you’re on a channel strip, you have a few toys you can add into this whole situation. Bring in your EQ and low-pass or high shelf a gag over that shrillness, slide a low-mid pillow underneath and prop up her bottom end, deploy some Channel compression and strap her down even further. Now push that fader and see if you can’t get the mix all the way up to 75/25 or 70/30, and a sonic experience nobody will soon forget.
Warning: this is X-Rated, and once you cross this line, it’s extremely difficult to go back regular musical intercourse!
Now... once you’ve had a number of unforgettable experiences, and you’ve pushed a few different signals to do things you couldn’t have even imagined, and you’ve developed certain specific techniques and skills and preferences. You eventually just wanna drop all pretenses and let your freak flag fly!
5) Having now pushed a number of different processors to do things that their daddies didn’t know they could do. You start to learn each of their similarities and differences, which ones get along which which type of signals. Which ones bring what to the mix. And which ones conflict with or compliment each other.
At the same time, once you realize that each one has its own unique thing going on. And you develop techniques for getting more of what you like, and controlling what you dislike from them. (And I didn’t mention that just like you can shape what comes out of em, you can also shape what goes into em’, often getting even more out.)
With this accumulation of numbers in your Rolodex, and knowledge of what they each can do, and what you like to do with them, you can now pick and choose which one to call on in any given situation or session.
But we’re all grown ups, so why just pick one?
Let’s say you have a gorgeous lead vocal on Channel-17. Well I didn’t mention that if you’re only gonna parallel 1 channel, then you don’t need to use an Aux Send. You can either simply Mult that channel before it comes into the board, or you can use Ch-17’s insert send, which usually doesn’t break it’s signal from flowing through the channel, into the Line-Input of Ch-18. Now Insert whatever hot little processor you have in mind into Channel 18, and have fun with 4B).
But once you do that, why stop there? Why not Mult again into Ch-19, and bring another of your favorites to the party? Maybe you get em both going, doing what they do, then you introduce each of them to Channel-17 and see which couple has the best chemistry. If 17 and 19 are a perfect fit, tell 18 thanks for coming, but it just didn’t work out.
However, maybe 17 really likes what 19 is doing down low, but taking 18 away after introducing em’ just doesn’t feel right. Well they don’t mind all playing together, in fact once you figure who’s gonna go where and do what, this ménage-a-trois might be just what the mix needed.
And then there’s Michael Brauer.
6) Brauerizing is now a set of techniques, developed by a man who, if not developed them all, at least took all of this accumulated knowledge outside of the closed studio sessions, and told the world what he was doing in there.
MB talks about putting his Lead Vocals together with 5+ other hot wet processed signals, so Channel-17 meet 18, 19, 20, 21, and 22, and then multi-bussing Everything else in the mix through a combination of 4 separate Stereo Mix Busses.
These full blow Aural Orgies have are classified as Un-Rated.
thanks
Trying to get my head around this in Logic Pro-X - I've got a vocal and I use volume automation to sort out the more dynamic parts - I then use a compressor as an insert, not Buss send - What is controlling what?
@@soundproductionandadvice Where's the Compressor? On the Channel or on a Bus downstream? If its on the Vocal Channel itself, then your Automation is after the Compression. Which is perfectly normal, if you're trying to Add To the dynamics of the performance using automation. If you're trying to Tame a Vocal performance, BEFORE it hits that compressor, in order for the compressor to work less which is common, then you probably want to use Clip Gain (or whatever the logic equivalent is called) and "tuck in" any wild peaks before they hit the compressor. Or you could run Two Compressors in Series (back to back), one to catch those peaks and another for control, tone, groove, movement etc. The classic example is an 1176 into an LA2A. (Though its an endless debate as to which order they should be!)
@@soundproductionandadvice th-cam.com/video/HQmQ5uzwNmM/w-d-xo.html
Here's Justin explaining Serial Compression!
I've noticed that the default on my DAW when sending an effect post fader to an FX channel is that the signal is sent at -6 dB. Is there a reason for this? Why not send at 0 dB and adjust the level on the FX channel?
Worth mentioning best to send rather than insert to avoid any sonic destruction. Also for dynamics like drums best to send complete group to glue-up?
If you do a Vocal bus how can you take the individual tracks and add different reverbs delays without having multiple vocal busses can you simply add a send for reverb to the unprocessed vocal wouldn’t that add reverb to the vocal that’s not compressed eqed?
Trying to get my head around this in Logic Pro-X - I've got a vocal and I use volume automation to sort out the more dynamic parts - I then use a compressor as an insert, not Buss send - What is controlling what?
I like pre fader so I can solo the effects , I’m in Logic so I’m not sure if there is another way to stay in post fader and listen to the effects in solo?
Any help
Thank you again. What about with parallel compression?
We've got some great content on that. Try here:
Conceptual: th-cam.com/video/3i-cY4EQMoU/w-d-xo.html
Demonstration: th-cam.com/video/tnKgDAImZtg/w-d-xo.html&feature=emb_title
Long story short is that parallel compression is *usually* done on a simple duplicated bus (or track). But, if you want to have a different blend for the parallel compressed bus, you could use aux sends to do it, instead of a simple duplicated bus.
Hope that helps!
@@SonicScoop Oh, will check these out. Thanks!!
@@ckowalski1029 well parallel compression is "a send" by definition. Yes there are plugins like "Parallel Particles" by Scheps and Waves that you can and should use as an insert, but usually the idea is to have a parallel track that you compress hard, but only add to the mix a little bit.
Taking this one step further, what about when you're using sends to FX that aren't under the bus? For example, If I had seven buses for Drums, Bass, Vocals, Guitars, etc. and used post-fader sends to a reverb not under any of those buses - does that create any balancing issues when I'm mixing the buses against each other? I've heard that I may need to have an instance of each FX (reverb / delay, etc.) under the same bus as my sends to avoid creating issues - is this true? - Thanks, John in Seattle
Justin I have a question sorry
Why you don't show such these precious experiences and knowledge on your audio system, so then you can have more audiences ,
I remember one of your videos when you were working on one of the Leapwig plugins called Rootone and that was great.
Sorry for my suggestion
Should parallel compresor be in pre or post fader? Thank you
I’d put it in pre so the compressed signal is always the same
3:15 Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know in most DAW, sending audio signal from one channel to another combines this two channels in one thread and this thread sits on a single core of processor. So when we send audio from 64 channels to our reverb we have 65 channels sitting on a single core, and it causes clipping, crackling and all other stuff. But if we use different reverbs on every single channels it creates multiple threads, and our expensive multi-core processors work as they should without creating problems to our workflow. So theoretically, creating reverbs on every single channel is better in terms of performance of our machines.
Just a thought...
Thank you for your great videos!
@@mcsweet1966 Imagine that you have 64 channel project inside your DAW. Some channels have VST Instruments, some of them just audio tracks. All of them have EQ, Compression, some of them have Saturation and all sorts of other plugins. Now you send a signal from all these channels to one, and now all the plugins, all the eqs, all FabFilter Saturns being processed by one single core of your computer, but not even by the single core, but the single thread of this core if this core is multithreaded. You can have up to 16 cores inside your CPU, but it uses only one core and only one thread to work with your project, so it gets stuck pretty easily. But if you're using separate reverbs on all channels, it spreads the proccessing across all cores, and your machine works fine. See what I mean?
@@mcsweet1966
sorry but you behave like you're either drunk or dumb. Have a nice day doing whatever you do
my experience tells me, that sending multiple tracks to one bus with Reverb on it is not problematic, but having too many effects on one bus and sending multiple tracks to it can be. I think a combination of multiple busses AND sending multiple tracks to single busses is the best approach.
I can't use soundtoys because iLok is frustrating
Make sure your BRAND is heard clearly. I ask myseilf.....what did he say his show is called.
Just a suggestion. I don't want to have to hunt for it.
“Hi it’s Justin Colletti of SonicScoop, that’s for joining me for this week’s episode of the SonicScoop podcast”
It’s also the name of the channel :-)
-Justin
Why should reverb be used pre-fader? Doesn't make much sense, in my opinion!
Reverb is conventionally used post fader, except for special effects. This is covered in the episode.
Hope that helps!
-Justin
Nice, but would have been nice by showing instead of just talk.
We have a ton of videos like that too! Try here: th-cam.com/play/PL3yghKGBjggTkBYyc-1_larMT6K4rGwmr.html
This one is a podcast episode, so that's not the vibe for this one.
Hope that helps!
"For those of you who don't know what this means..." you should get out of the bidness right now.