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@@bobamericana3099 Unfortunately, this has been done, and the drive efficiency was just too poor. I do remember being a kid and seeing a shaft-driven bicycle, thinking it was the coolest thing!
@@Cyclingabout indeed- chain is most efficient . i am in the process of building a delta style recumbent trike. rather than having 10 feet of chain going though rubber guides and what not- a shaft driven by a worm gear on the pedal cranks would be cool...will have an ebike kit so i really not concerned with gearing and what not...a shaft would really clean up my build. as it it stands,rather than have that huge chain routed all over the place i went with a transfer case of sorts..a normal chain from the pedals to a coaster gear..then a second chain from that gear to the rear axle....a simple shaft design for that 6 foot length of the assembly would be beneficial in my case- at least as efficient for a really complex 1 speed drive .
Finally, a video about Shimano gearbox from someone who ACTUALLY knows about it!!!! I will never be able to afford it but I can listen to Alee all day on this!
@@Cyclingabout of course man. If I could afford a gearbox, I would have bought it without thinking twice thanks to your words. Until then, I will watch and listen to you. Cheers mate.
amit kunar i would not be so sure about that? The intended target seems to be the mass market. The price will fall significantly when it is made in large mass market quantities. The only stumbling block i can see is it will never compete with single chainring 1 on 9 setups for weight, nimbleness or reduced mechanical resistance. It just does not seem to have sport potential.
@@MrDegsy69 This thing isn't mass market compatible. It's heavy, expensive (in comparison to traditional shifting) and requires a dedicated frame design. I don't see that thing going off in anything other than electric bikes. There seems to be a segment of customers in that market that appreciates a bulky, almost motorcycle-like look, and isn't too price-sensitive.
Regardless of how well Pinion, Rohloff and Effigear designs work, they have just too many machined/sintered components to ever be affordable enough to be used on the majority of bikes, unless they do something really clever to radically reduce costs. Shimano is in with a chance given that chain/deraillleur stuff is more mass produceable and with enough work could maybe reduced to a reasonable size/weight. Could be made smaller with material/heat treatment/coating(?) optimisation. Very good videos from the guy. Defo worth a sub.
1:57: Your estimate for the size of the gearbox is based on the assumption that the 19-41 cassette will be the same size as a regular cassette. However, It will probably be a scaled down version - smaller gears, shorter links in the chain, narrower axle. It'll probably spin faster (than regular cadence) to allow the same power output with a lower maximum torque.
Would the UCI rules on chain pitch still apply inside a gearbox? That's the limiting factor. Shimano already did experiment with smaller chain pitch and it was more efficient, but that was banned.
@@kroee as I understand it, the Honda G-Cross team used a gearbox based on commodity bike parts in the downhill world cup. Did the UCI issue a ruling on gearboxes subsequent to that?
Roee Keren that is so ridiculous. These artificial barriers hinder innovation so much. It’s too bad that most of the bike community is too busy trying to look like their favorite WT pro to realize their needs are nothing like those of the WT racers. When I look for cars to buy, I don’t think about whether they meet FIA regulations. How absurd.
Absolutely love the comment at the end of the video ‘Shimano, if you want someone to test your product across a continent or 2, then I’m your man’… brilliant, such confidence & rightly so :-).
I ride a traditional Shimano set up on my Trek520. That said; the low maintenance of a Rohloff and the low maintenance (and cool factor) of the Pinion are very desirable. If I were able to provide a suitable home for another bike I’d definitely adopt one of the sealed drive systems. (The N+1 ownership paradigm is undermined by my N-1 bank account.) Thanks for the tech geek-out.
Gearboxes did make it to the mass market. Lots of people, including my grew up use The Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub! They were used on a ton of British made bikes in the '50s, 60,s, '70s 80's
I have one on my Columbia Tourist, probably an AW but the hub shell is covered in grease oil and dirt so it's unreadable, the hub is gutted with it's parts all over a drawer in my toolbox because I'm cleaning it and putting fresh grease and oil in it, also going to see if I can seal it to keep it from dumping oil out everywhere so it doesn't make messes and so I don't have to refill it as often to keep it going for another 70 years.
Such a detailed video! Thanks for enlightening us on this new patent. Love the mention of unsprung mass compared to hub gearboxes, and also the weight and efficiency comparisons.
I rode from the US to Panama on a Surly Ogre and the biggest pain besides the tire(I was an idiot and went with 700c over 26' where 26' is the standard) was the drive train. Rust, much, chain stretch, gear wear; it was all a big headache. I haven't completed my tour into South America because I'm saving enough money up to get a gearbox. Hope this comes out soon, would love to see this on a Surly Troll(the 26' version of the Ogre).
I love having a fuss-free drivetrain! Switching to a Rohloff definitely improved my travel experience when I started doing longer and longer trips. These days I might get the toothbrush out and clean the belt every month or two, but that's about it. Regarding 26" tyres, they're now becoming far less common! When I was in Colombia, I was shopping for a 26" tyre in a big city with a friend, and we couldn't find anything more than a $5 Chinese option. In the shops, most new MTBs come with 27.5 or 29" wheels, so those are the tyre dimensions shops stock in decent quality.
@@Cyclingabout what about every other country? From the US to Panama when I went to buy tires there were tons of 26' and no 700c. Maybe north Latin America is different than South America. . .
@@buckettraveler8398 From what other multiyear riders are saying, this case for most countries around the world. And certainly the case for Latin America in my experience. The only region where good quality 26" stuff is still ubiquitous is Asia - but they have ample 27.5 and 29" gear too.
@@Cyclingabout This wasn't my experience. I rode into larger cities I was so desperate. I would get to a bike shop, both high cost shops that sold top of the line stuff and the shops that locals frequented that used their bikes for sole transportation and work and both kinds of shops stocked mostly 26' and might have a few other sizes. I wasn't on a specific bike rout though but like I said I rode through every capital and a lot of cities hunting for tires because mine were worn out. Bike shops would even see the state of my tubes and tires and call around for me and locals at the bike shop would do the same thing. Most shops only stock 26'. Mexico City it was even a pain to find anything in 700c that wasn't a skinny slick racing tire and that is the largest Latin America city behind Sao Paulo. So Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama 26' is fully stocked and everything else they might have a few other sizes but only in slick racing/road tires.
@@buckettraveler8398 Don't get me wrong, 700C tyres in a 32-50mm are still harder to source in developing countries around the world. But 26" is rapidly getting replaced by 27.5" and 29", so I'm currently recommending these two wheel options to anyone who asks. 👍🏻
Thank you for such a thorough review. I’m surprised that you feel confident that it doesn’t have the potential for an ebike motor. My understanding was that the bottom part matched the profile shape of the Shimano steps motor, which gave me hope it would be possible. I think having a gearbox & motor in one is the future, even if Shimano isn’t designing this to be that.
Some outlets have reported that it will integrate with an eBike motor, but this is highly unlikely given the drawing specifications. Take a look at the inside of a Shimano Steps or Bosch CX motor and you can see that those components will have a VERY hard time fitting inside this gearbox, especially around the first transmission (cassette).
So much has changed since my Saracen Overbury’s 1983 18 speed mountain bike, one thing for sure, mine is still really light being mostly aluminium .....still a lovely ride today..
Just like you I did a gigantic bike tour from Belgium to China, so what you said in the beginning is DEF true on great voyages. Also for MTB and gravel this can be something special. But for road riding, endurance KOMs and whatsoever, I do not see this (yet). But great video and totally agree on the get this dude for testing, even though I would also be a worthy test lab lol
Still happy with my Rohloff... been running it for 8 years but upto now no problems at all..Frames were only changed. I got Shimano Nexus 8 so far also running decently...
Excellent informative video as usual. I've owned two Rohloff hubs, I'm pretty sure 97% efficiency is only rarely achieved. I like the narrow Q-factor on these Shimano drawings, which imo is a problem with the Pinion offering.
Alee presents data saying that the Rohloff is quite efficient (94.5%), but I've been reading different opinions with the consensus being the Rohloff is "draggy". It might just be a weight distribution thing or a something else unrelated.
@@Cyclingabout Thanks for the interesting upload and fair enough, after all it is your channel. Worth remembering the viewer can''t mute just the background music when watching. If the viewer prefers watching WITH background music, they can easily play whatever music they like in the background ...or even bang saucepans together if that's their thing!
Would work fine with electric assistance. I don't want to tour on a weighty lump of gears though unless i go on my motorcycle. A hub gearbox ok but a spare derailleur, hangar and chain still delivers simply and affordable touring to thousands of bicycle travellers.
Also wondering if the cassettes and chain could be miniaturised to reduce overall size and weight. I don't see an absolute necessity to stay with current industry standard bike chain pitch for the gearbox internals.
The patent application doesn't indicate anything about changing the chain/cassette size from normal - and that's surely something Shimano would need to patent.
Great news ! 3 Ideas: - Need a road version - Cable operated = simple AND cheaper - Don't loose water bottle room ! On my Road Fixie the straight chainline & robust chain = troublefree & stays spotless too.
I wonder if you missed one configuration that should work. My ebike has a rear hub with 7 gears on rear cassette but single up front. Now with the shimano gearbox the reverse should work, single on rear with hub motor and the shimano Gearbox in the middle. This would allow possibly for gates belt drive which would be a great setup for commuter. I usually use low to no power on my e-bike, except for steep hills. But today I was SOOO grateful for it. I had not looked at weather forecast and a down pour started. I left early to avoid early darkness and the heavy traffic. Full power all the way home. So happy to have that motor. This gearbox would be a great pairing for ebikes I think.
I always thought SRAM would be the first to create a system similar to this. The orientation of the cassettes leaves a good admit of room for mtb rear suspension designs too. Exciting times ahead for sure 👏
I'm interested why you thought SRAM would be first? Just because they are a pretty innovative bunch? Hopefully, they're working on a gearbox in any case, I welcome more competition in this space. 👊🏼
Can someone explain how this is maintenance free. I can see that the internal chains and spockets will have a relatively longevity being free from contaminates and bathed in lubricate but surely these will still have wear. How easy and often will this have to be done?
I usually say 'virtually maintenance-free' or 'almost maintenance-free' on gearbox drivetrains. - Gearbox manufacturers recommend you change the oil every 5000-10,000km. - You will have to change the external chainring, chain and cog periodically - which is at 10,000km on chain drive and 30,000km on belt drive. - You will need to de-grease and lube a chain drivetrain, but a belt drivetrain doesn't require much more than a wipe-down every now and then. The Shimano gearbox will likely last upwards of 20,000km before the cassettes and chains begin to wear out. Oil changes will likely be similar to a Rohloff or Pinion (5000-10,000km).
@@Cyclingabout But that would still mean exchanging the internal casettes / chain every couple of years for a lot of people. Essentially replacing the whole thing. Thats a very different longevity compared to a rohloff (and pinion?) hub.
@@calaphos I'm speculating, it could be many more kilometres/years than that. The point is the system will require far less maintenance than a derailleur system.
If it is a fully sealed oil bath, like the Fully sealed transmission in cars and axle, it will outlive your entire bike components before it needs servicing, practically maintenance free indeed.
What happened to the KISS principle? My brain itches at the thought of this. In the 1980s Sturmey made a nice 2-lever/2-cable 5-speed based on the pre-war FW hub. They eventually put it in an aluminium shell which made for a solid wheel. It was inexpensive, weathertight, fairly efficient and you could dismantle it, clean it and put it back together within a couple of hours.
What I love about my Rohloff is that I can swap it between bikes. I just finished swapping my Rohloff/Gates from my Co-motion Americano to a Carver 420 Titanium. And I can quickly swap it back to the Co-motion.
I know I'm late to this but did anyone ever find out the efficiency of Alan Milyard's gearbox he put in his son's downhill bike? It was an 8 or 9 speeder with everything including the drive to the rear wheel hidden in a single side swingarm.
Excellent explanation, the biggest issue I see with this system is that you will likely only be able to shift one gear at a time rather than dumping several gears for a tough climb. The size and weight will also likely be factors in the gearbox design catching on.
man, there is a fashion of influencer around in all departments. I don't like at all listening to somebody who tells people how to live, but hey when it comes to you I say this guy is a pro nerd in love with bicycle as few people around. if you keep doing like this you will enter the Olimpo of the cyclist and journalist. I really like the not influencer part of you, the outdoor technical nerd. Great job
Gearboxes can be simple, strong but not user fixable without tools and skills. For most it would be a disposable part which is fine if you get 100,000 kms.
It's a derailuer in a can . It's a very simple idea and its much lighter than a helical geared transmission. All the weight would be low and in the center of the bike. Chains are more efficient than gear boxes.
i think the efficiency will be similar to a conventional drive. The internal chain length is nearly identical throughout the range so whatever tensioner is inside will barely add any additional rotation to the rollers in the chain. the main drive will be similar to a fixie, and the mini chain from the crank to the gearbox will be sealed and optimally lubricated at all times, will offset the efficiency lost to conventional derailleur pulleys.
Yeah, I've exaggerated a bit on the tensioner for simplicity. But the 2.5-3.0 watts per chain are still highly probable. Just running two chains will make your bike less efficient than a derailleur bike.
I agree for commuting and touring it has its merits however for the dedicated MTB pilots that proposed 3kg plus over mixed XC routes will take its toll, yes we can reduce frame weights to compensate but to allow this extremely careful lay ups are required allied to new materials Graphene and Aerogel but retrospectively price starts climbing once more.
The Pinion one comes with a five year warranty!! Deviate are running one on their bike ! For me it means no more expensive drivetrains! Even if the gearbox is pricey I’m not bothered. Great video thanks
The five-year warranty is a very nice service! The Deviate Guide is essentially my dream enduro bike. Unfortunately, they don't make frames big enough for a guy who's 2m tall. 😭
@@Cyclingabout Then maybe you should state your preference for abnormally long bikes rather than make false claims about a manufacturer's product. A bike not being "super-long" is not the same as the bike not being suitable for a 2m tall rider.
@@craigsj It's not a false claim to want the right-sized bike. Why the hell would I ride a bike with a longer stem than the bike is designed for, along with a bunch of spacers under the stem because the stack is so low? There are literally dozens of other brands with appropriately sized bikes for me.
small comment! When you record audio with your camera, or atleast during the shots we see you directly through the camera, the audio comes only out of one earset, with your editing video just make sure those tracks are set to mono so we hear you from both :) Greets!
Granted I didn't cycle 1K+ km with my gearbox system (now retired for many years), but simplicity in bikes really matter. With car you can simply push pedal harder and pay more for gas, but with bike weight, space, efficiency, etc. all those factor matters, because you will feel it in your knees the second you start riding. And price matters too of course. So the reason we don't see gearboxes in bicycles is there is no good reasons to use them (the only one I see is the wheel building).
This is great for UK conditions. Keeping everything sealed makes sense. I guess you could change ratios as in a normal bike, at the expense of them not being so close together. MTB will be the main application as it is heavier and they take on more difficult conditions. The grit in the Peak District (UK) for example - kills bikes. Can see it popular in Holland too. They care less about weight and like bikes to be utilitarian with little maintainence.
You can change the external gear ratio to pick the speed at which the gear range starts and stops, but the 12% average gear steps will always stay the same. Will definitely be a killer drivetrain option for wet/muddy/gritty conditions, my Rohloff/belt drivetrain is my favourite thing about my bike.
What is the source of 0:35? Would love to read more about the test methodology. Had no idea Rohloff was so close to the traditional derailleur systems!
From an MTB point of view, I could live with the extra weight when considering it will be going from unsprung to sprung, but I would not be able to live with a huge gearbox, suspension design and bottlecage all fighting for the same space in the middle triangle. I don't see it working.
That thing is huge. Reminds me of a story that I read in a German bike magazine. Bernhard Rohloff was approached by a big guy from Shimano (maybe even the CEO) on an exhibition, who told him the following: "You know, my engineers can come up with a 3-stage planetary gear box as well, but it is going to be double the size than yours". I found the original: Yoshi Shimano, head of the company, comes to the Rohloffs at a trade fair and says: "We could build a 14-speed hub tomorrow. But it would be twice as big and twice as heavy as yours. How do you do it?" The Rohloff patent expires soon, or even has expired already recently. It would be much wiser from Shimano to copy it and sell it for half the price of the Rohloff version. To put an old-school derailleur system in a massive housing sounds rather "uninspired" to me.
They tried to get into that market with the 11 speed alfine gearbox already. While the thing costs half as much as the rohloff, they didnt hafe ma whole lot of success with various reports on their limited reliability. To get a hub with the legendary reliability of a rohloff you need to do more than just copy the design itself. Its also about the right manufacturing process of hardened gears, quality controll, etc. Shimano might be able to compete with the expertise rohloff has build up, but in the end they wont be able to sell it for much cheaper. And with the market for such an expensive bike part being limited, the brand reputation of rohloffs reliability is hard to beat for shimano. I dont think they will be very sucessful with just copying the design. Maybe they can at least copy the shifter cables and indexing system, so their hubs arent such a nightmare with the indexing being off.
I wonder how the Alfine 11 Di2 compares, reliability-wise, to the mechanically-shifted version. As I understand, and as you point out, the real Achilles' heel of the Alfine 11 is the precision adjustment required to not destroy the hub, combined with cable stretch and the indexing being at the shifter meaning that it's easy to come out of adjustment. (As I understand, the precision needed is because of the total shifter cable pull being the same distance as the previous 7 and 8-speed rotary shift mechanisms, but with more gears in the same distance?) The Di2 model would, I assume, entirely eliminate that particular failure mode. ...of course, you also run into the lower efficiency of the Alfine 11 (which is only on par with the Pinion P1.18) than the Rohloff Speedhub... and Rohloff has an electronic shifting model (the E-14) too, if you actually want that (although it's only currently available paired to Bosch e-bike drives).
@Maciej Jan Długosz I guess it only feels inefficient due to the noise in the first 7 gears. Have mine now for 5 years and am enjoying it as on the first day. Had many bike journeys with it - one from Yangon to Kuala Lumpur. The hub simply works!
Just a heads up mate. That intro music isn't actually copyright free, JxmyHighroller (Basketball TH-camr) has been done for multiple videos because that was in his intro. Just thought I'd let you know for future reference!
Great video! We will not see any big change regarding bicycles transmission until the day they will find an higher efficiency drive train , with the same weight (more or less) and dimension . The price it is not a big issue ; for a clear better performance I will open my wallet, no problem.
Why does it still have a rear derailers? Some of the illustrations showed a rear derailer, while others showed a belt drive to a single gear in the rear.
I could see myself using this on a commuter bike, maybe. My current commuter bike is a $500 bike, and that is WHY it is my commuter bike. I won't be leaving my Topstone locked up outside anytime soon.
How about just modifying the derailleur system such that the front cog also shifts with the rear derailleur, so that the chain remains straight all the time to improve response and efficiency.
I would love to see a Shimano gearbox with one simple hope, a compatible XTR quality rapid-fire shifter. That is the one thing that has kept me away from both the Rholoff and Pinion. Always wanted to give them a try, can't stand grip shifters.
I suspect an electronic shifter is probably the most likely option for a gearbox. I quite liked the rather tactile XTR Di2 shifter I used on one of my mountain bikes.
@@Cyclingabout I wouldn't be mad at an electric shifter either, I haven't made the jump yet but everyone I know who has say they will never go back. I am avoiding test riding their bikes...
I have owned a MTB with a 12 speed Pinion with grip shifter for nearly a year. When I ordered the bike, I was already looking for a retrofit paddle shift kit. I received the bike and decided to give it a go. After having ridden it a short while, it became intuitive to use the grip shift. Now I wouldn't have it any other way. Moral: If you haven't given it a reasonable chance, how do you really know?
I wonder if one couldn't eliminate some of the metal with opposed cones actuated with a governor system, how about a two-step belt drive to actuate rear hub transmission? There's a lot that can be done, in the future we will perhaps see transmissions with incorporated armatures to make hybrid drive transmissions systems, high-end chains and cassettes may finally go away and cheaper belt drive systems are certainly a possibility, we cannot step on the "toes" of profitability though, so 'trickle-down will be slow.
Very cool info. As a bike tourer, i am definitely interested in this news from shimano. I wonder why the big bike companies like giant & trek haven’t used pinion gear boxes yet? It seems only small independent companies are making bikes with pinion gear boxes & carbon belt drives. And they are VERY expensive! Hopefully if shimano enters the fray, prices will come down.
ᴄ ʏ ᴄ ʟ ɪ ɴ ɢ ᴀ ʙ ᴏ ᴜ ᴛ yeah, i hear ya. But i could see this being a big thing eventually and trickling down to the mass market. Like disc brakes did back in the day. I really like the low maintenance aspect. Especially when on long bike tours. CoMotion & Koga pinion bikes are very expensive. At least for me right now. But a pinion bike with a carbon belt drive called the Priority 600 Ryan Duzer reviewed on his channel looked affordable at about a third of the cost of the ones from CoMotion & Koga. So i may give that a try.
@@BikeTall I have owned a Priority 600X for almost a year now. Love it. The suspension fork from Wren is top notch. The Pinion 12 speed, also top notch. The Gates Carbon Drive is fantastic. One thing I am going to upgrade on the belt drive is shield for the lower (slack) side of the belt. It has been vulnerable to small pea gravel (in wet conditions) landing on it and being transported to the rear cog where it is crushed between the belt and cog. I'm sure this is not conducive to long belt/cog life. If a shield were made to be over this portion of the belt, the problem would mostly go away............
So, I don't see any upsides over current 1x systems. 1. it's going to weigh more 2. most likely going to cost more. 3. maintenance may be marginally lessened in frequency but will be much tougher and more involved than 1x systems - chain will stretch and cassettes inside will wear. 4. Lower efficency 5. lesser overall gear range than currently on the market.
My local college added a bicycle engineering course to its curriculum in the last year or two. As a former student in the college's musical instrument programs, and as a former (old-school) bicycle roadracer who's worked as a mechanic at several bike shops over the years, I took interest in this new turn of events. I had initially imagined that the courses would cover new materials & methods of framebuilding, along with innovative componentry. Later, after looking around at today's market trends, I'd supposed that a lot of the students would be interested in e-bikes. Now I see this, and I'm wondering if bikes of the near future might come in a form that's ready-made for installing any of several competing gearbox-drive systems. This would require that all gearbox & frame manufacturers would develop a shared set of integration standards for achieving universal compatibility. It's also worth noting that the reduction in size & weight of gearboxes also means smaller parts taking on proportionally higher loads, & therefore a reduction in durability emerges as size & weight are decreased, so that's something to focus on during design development. I'll be sharing your excellent video with Minnesota State College Southeast any second now. Thanks tons, I'm betting the students & instructors there will be inspired by it. BTW, I'm already a subscriber.
@@the.communist i do not disagree. But I do recognize the entire industry is still growing and got a huge boost over the last 1.5 years. I also know they are actively engineering gearbox’s as I type these words, so we are not without hope. But I still agree, probably not soon.
Hopefully it's not going to be neglected like the Alfine and Nexus, which haven't been updated for modern thru axles standards. Gearboxes don't have to worry about that fortunately.
@@the.communist damn commies lol. No seriously though it really is. I mean it’s all about what works best for people. But I really do use most to all of my range in various situations. I do more long distance cross country riding than anything so when you’re really pushing yourself it’s nice to have so many options to give yourself a break
I would be glad with a system, where I have 9-11 speed on one side, and 2-3 speed on the other side, but with way bigger steps than in a derailleur system. e.g. in a 2x train a half and a normal speed. The bigger part should have some overlap in the modes, so I could select slower ratios in difficult areas, and faster ratios in road without continuously playing with the "front" shifter as well.
After all these advancements and investment that is put into this transmissions, it is loosing in one crucial area. As far as I am aware of," it is still not able to shift while stationary or after an emergency stop". Correct me if I am wrong. I do have some solution for this in my mind, as I am thinking about it for a while now. :)
You can't shift when stationary. The only way this would be possible is if the cog to the rear wheel was fixed, so that the cassettes were always spinning. But then you have a constant drive resistance.
Hello Alee, I don't know anything about Pinion and Rohloff. I think I'll be buying a bike like this with one of these systems next year. I have a question if both of these systems can work on one bike simultaneously or if Pinion excludes Rohloff and vice versa.
This could be better than that. Per March 2013 article on Velo Magazine, Molten Speed Wax used 4.75 watts out of 250 watts. That is 98% efficiency. Your 97% singlespeed chain number is more like the garden variety lubricant like White Lightening. Assuming Shimano with their optimized lubricant and surface finish can improve on Molten Wax by 20%, which seems reasonable by their graphs, you are at 95.5% gear box efficiency. That will put you above Rohloff efficiency. If Shimano is cheaper, that could be a game changer.
Good point - lubricants vary widely in terms of resistance, which will skew my numbers a bit. The singlespeed chain was the control in a test that compared the Pinion gearbox, Rohloff hub and other gearboxes, which is why I've used for this example too. The 97% singlespeed number is based off a machine simulating 200w where the drive resistance was 6-watts. From that test and others, we know that the drive resistance doesn't vary much between 200-250w - so the following numbers shouldn't be too far off. Assuming the Molten Speed Wax (or an equivalently efficient lube) is used for the three chains of the Shimano Gearbox drivetrain, the 9-watts resistance could drop to 7.2-watts (2.4-watts per chain), bringing us up to ~91% efficiency overall. But the drive efficiency of the Rohloff would also get to increase to 95.1% efficient if it was also tested with Molten Speed Wax. For fun, let's say Shimano can improve the lube formula by 20% on Molten Speed Wax. That means the three chains will run at 5.75-watts (1.92w per chain @ 200-watts) - plus the pulley and bearings - and it's up around 92.25%.😊
Well, no more broken derailleurs and derailleurhangers, less unsprung mass. Sealed. Perfect for mtbs imo. Witch Di2 whatever e-shifting this would be a no brainer if its not to expensive! (Maybe not for XCO if its way more heavy)
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i still believe a drive shaft would be best
Were you in Death Valley on Saturday Nov 2nd? If so, cheers!
@@dh3790 Currently cycling across Guatemala!
@@bobamericana3099 Unfortunately, this has been done, and the drive efficiency was just too poor. I do remember being a kid and seeing a shaft-driven bicycle, thinking it was the coolest thing!
@@Cyclingabout indeed- chain is most efficient . i am in the process of building a delta style recumbent trike. rather than having 10 feet of chain going though rubber guides and what not- a shaft driven by a worm gear on the pedal cranks would be cool...will have an ebike kit so i really not concerned with gearing and what not...a shaft would really clean up my build. as it it stands,rather than have that huge chain routed all over the place i went with a transfer case of sorts..a normal chain from the pedals to a coaster gear..then a second chain from that gear to the rear axle....a simple shaft design for that 6 foot length of the assembly would be beneficial in my case- at least as efficient for a really complex 1 speed drive .
Finally, a video about Shimano gearbox from someone who ACTUALLY knows about it!!!! I will never be able to afford it but I can listen to Alee all day on this!
Thanks! I'm probably the biggest gearbox nerd going around, so it's my pleasure to share this knowledge. ⚱️
@@Cyclingabout of course man. If I could afford a gearbox, I would have bought it without thinking twice thanks to your words. Until then, I will watch and listen to you. Cheers mate.
@@amitkumar-wj8gn microfinance WAS built for putting THIS at crankcenter.
amit kunar i would not be so sure about that? The intended target seems to be the mass market. The price will fall significantly when it is made in large mass market quantities. The only stumbling block i can see is it will never compete with single chainring 1 on 9 setups for weight, nimbleness or reduced mechanical resistance. It just does not seem to have sport potential.
@@MrDegsy69 This thing isn't mass market compatible. It's heavy, expensive (in comparison to traditional shifting) and requires a dedicated frame design. I don't see that thing going off in anything other than electric bikes. There seems to be a segment of customers in that market that appreciates a bulky, almost motorcycle-like look, and isn't too price-sensitive.
The best explanation so far of this system. And, hey, Shimano Alee is definitely your guy if you are going to test this
Regardless of how well Pinion, Rohloff and Effigear designs work, they have just too many machined/sintered components to ever be affordable enough to be used on the majority of bikes, unless they do something really clever to radically reduce costs. Shimano is in with a chance given that chain/deraillleur stuff is more mass produceable and with enough work could maybe reduced to a reasonable size/weight. Could be made smaller with material/heat treatment/coating(?) optimisation. Very good videos from the guy. Defo worth a sub.
I've got a Rohloff and I love it. Every time I ride that bike, I wonder how I ever lived without it.
1:57: Your estimate for the size of the gearbox is based on the assumption that the 19-41 cassette will be the same size as a regular cassette.
However, It will probably be a scaled down version - smaller gears, shorter links in the chain, narrower axle.
It'll probably spin faster (than regular cadence) to allow the same power output with a lower maximum torque.
Would the UCI rules on chain pitch still apply inside a gearbox? That's the limiting factor. Shimano already did experiment with smaller chain pitch and it was more efficient, but that was banned.
@@vaynomblennerI'm pretty sure gearboxes are strictly banned by UCI.
@@kroee as I understand it, the Honda G-Cross team used a gearbox based on commodity bike parts in the downhill world cup. Did the UCI issue a ruling on gearboxes subsequent to that?
Roee Keren that is so ridiculous. These artificial barriers hinder innovation so much. It’s too bad that most of the bike community is too busy trying to look like their favorite WT pro to realize their needs are nothing like those of the WT racers. When I look for cars to buy, I don’t think about whether they meet FIA regulations. How absurd.
@@404nobrakes WORD!
Absolutely love the comment at the end of the video ‘Shimano, if you want someone to test your product across a continent or 2, then I’m your man’… brilliant, such confidence & rightly so :-).
HA! Loved the 2 Chainz blip at 8:34.
I'm glad someone else caught that. Didn't expect it 😂😂
Except it looks like 3 chains...
2 Chainz reviews the most expensive bike...
I ride a traditional Shimano set up on my Trek520. That said; the low maintenance of a Rohloff and the low maintenance (and cool factor) of the Pinion are very desirable. If I were able to provide a suitable home for another bike I’d definitely adopt one of the sealed drive systems. (The N+1 ownership paradigm is undermined by my N-1 bank account.) Thanks for the tech geek-out.
Better give Shimano a call because you're the man...
Gearboxes did make it to the mass market. Lots of people, including my grew up use The Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub! They were used on a ton of British made bikes in the '50s, 60,s, '70s 80's
I have one on my Columbia Tourist, probably an AW but the hub shell is covered in grease oil and dirt so it's unreadable, the hub is gutted with it's parts all over a drawer in my toolbox because I'm cleaning it and putting fresh grease and oil in it, also going to see if I can seal it to keep it from dumping oil out everywhere so it doesn't make messes and so I don't have to refill it as often to keep it going for another 70 years.
@@nathanmead140 replace the rubber seals, they rot over time.
Coming Soon: $25,000 S-Works mountain bikes.
Such a detailed video! Thanks for enlightening us on this new patent. Love the mention of unsprung mass compared to hub gearboxes, and also the weight and efficiency comparisons.
Ha, loved the line “Shimano...I’m your guy”. Yes you are!
I rode from the US to Panama on a Surly Ogre and the biggest pain besides the tire(I was an idiot and went with 700c over 26' where 26' is the standard) was the drive train. Rust, much, chain stretch, gear wear; it was all a big headache. I haven't completed my tour into South America because I'm saving enough money up to get a gearbox. Hope this comes out soon, would love to see this on a Surly Troll(the 26' version of the Ogre).
I love having a fuss-free drivetrain! Switching to a Rohloff definitely improved my travel experience when I started doing longer and longer trips. These days I might get the toothbrush out and clean the belt every month or two, but that's about it.
Regarding 26" tyres, they're now becoming far less common! When I was in Colombia, I was shopping for a 26" tyre in a big city with a friend, and we couldn't find anything more than a $5 Chinese option. In the shops, most new MTBs come with 27.5 or 29" wheels, so those are the tyre dimensions shops stock in decent quality.
@@Cyclingabout what about every other country? From the US to Panama when I went to buy tires there were tons of 26' and no 700c. Maybe north Latin America is different than South America. . .
@@buckettraveler8398 From what other multiyear riders are saying, this case for most countries around the world. And certainly the case for Latin America in my experience. The only region where good quality 26" stuff is still ubiquitous is Asia - but they have ample 27.5 and 29" gear too.
@@Cyclingabout This wasn't my experience. I rode into larger cities I was so desperate. I would get to a bike shop, both high cost shops that sold top of the line stuff and the shops that locals frequented that used their bikes for sole transportation and work and both kinds of shops stocked mostly 26' and might have a few other sizes. I wasn't on a specific bike rout though but like I said I rode through every capital and a lot of cities hunting for tires because mine were worn out. Bike shops would even see the state of my tubes and tires and call around for me and locals at the bike shop would do the same thing. Most shops only stock 26'. Mexico City it was even a pain to find anything in 700c that wasn't a skinny slick racing tire and that is the largest Latin America city behind Sao Paulo. So Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama 26' is fully stocked and everything else they might have a few other sizes but only in slick racing/road tires.
@@buckettraveler8398 Don't get me wrong, 700C tyres in a 32-50mm are still harder to source in developing countries around the world. But 26" is rapidly getting replaced by 27.5" and 29", so I'm currently recommending these two wheel options to anyone who asks. 👍🏻
I really appreciate this in-depth presentation with lots of data that makes sense.
Thank you for such a thorough review. I’m surprised that you feel confident that it doesn’t have the potential for an ebike motor. My understanding was that the bottom part matched the profile shape of the Shimano steps motor, which gave me hope it would be possible. I think having a gearbox & motor in one is the future, even if Shimano isn’t designing this to be that.
Some outlets have reported that it will integrate with an eBike motor, but this is highly unlikely given the drawing specifications. Take a look at the inside of a Shimano Steps or Bosch CX motor and you can see that those components will have a VERY hard time fitting inside this gearbox, especially around the first transmission (cassette).
So much has changed since my Saracen Overbury’s 1983 18 speed mountain bike, one thing for sure, mine is still really light being mostly aluminium .....still a lovely ride today..
Just like you I did a gigantic bike tour from Belgium to China, so what you said in the beginning is DEF true on great voyages. Also for MTB and gravel this can be something special. But for road riding, endurance KOMs and whatsoever, I do not see this (yet). But great video and totally agree on the get this dude for testing, even though I would also be a worthy test lab lol
Still happy with my Rohloff... been running it for 8 years but upto now no problems at all..Frames were only changed. I got Shimano Nexus 8 so far also running decently...
Excellent informative video as usual. I've owned two Rohloff hubs, I'm pretty sure 97% efficiency is only rarely achieved. I like the narrow Q-factor on these Shimano drawings, which imo is a problem with the Pinion offering.
Cheers! According to the data we have, the Rohloff averages out at 94.5% efficiency with gear 8 and 11 being the two most efficient gears.
Alee presents data saying that the Rohloff is quite efficient (94.5%), but I've been reading different opinions with the consensus being the Rohloff is "draggy". It might just be a weight distribution thing or a something else unrelated.
2:13 those gearbox requires new frame? Well, bike manufacturers welcome this idea.
GReat video but the 4-bar background loop with "sax`n dj" drove me crazy. U dont need background music, dude.
I tried it with and without background music and preferred it with. I might try something else next time though.
@@CyclingaboutBackground music is fine, just get something less repetitive. (And I'm a huge Paul Desmond fan, but this remix is terrible.)
@@Cyclingabout Thanks for the interesting upload and fair enough, after all it is your channel.
Worth remembering the viewer can''t mute just the background music when watching. If the viewer prefers watching WITH background music, they can easily play whatever music they like in the background ...or even bang saucepans together if that's their thing!
you obviously dont watch jxmy highroller. trap sax is legendary
@@nickasel5393 Lol. Nothing Trap is legendary, dude:)
i just realised that cycling about is a play on walkabout, nice
Would work fine with electric assistance. I don't want to tour on a weighty lump of gears though unless i go on my motorcycle. A hub gearbox ok but a spare derailleur, hangar and chain still delivers simply and affordable touring to thousands of bicycle travellers.
Excellent presentation & analysis. I just learned a lot. Thanks.
Also wondering if the cassettes and chain could be miniaturised to
reduce overall size and weight. I don't see an absolute necessity to stay with
current industry standard bike chain pitch for the gearbox internals.
The patent application doesn't indicate anything about changing the chain/cassette size from normal - and that's surely something Shimano would need to patent.
@@Cyclingabout Shimano already did 10mm pitch chains in the late 70s, so maybe it's not novel enough to patent.
this is close engineering to cvt transmissions. I like this!!
Great news !
3 Ideas:
- Need a road version
- Cable operated = simple AND cheaper
- Don't loose water bottle room !
On my Road Fixie the straight chainline & robust chain = troublefree & stays spotless too.
I wonder if you missed one configuration that should work. My ebike has a rear hub with 7 gears on rear cassette but single up front. Now with the shimano gearbox the reverse should work, single on rear with hub motor and the shimano Gearbox in the middle. This would allow possibly for gates belt drive which would be a great setup for commuter. I usually use low to no power on my e-bike, except for steep hills. But today I was SOOO grateful for it. I had not looked at weather forecast and a down pour started. I left early to avoid early darkness and the heavy traffic. Full power all the way home. So happy to have that motor. This gearbox would be a great pairing for ebikes I think.
That's right, the external drive is single speed, meaning you could run a belt!
Have been hearing in all channels, but this video is simple. More competition now since Shimano has a larger market than the pioneers
Thanks! It's my aim to keep these tech videos as simple as possible... gearbox stuff is usually advanced-level.
I'm never disappointed in any of his videos!
Thanks dude!
I always thought SRAM would be the first to create a system similar to this.
The orientation of the cassettes leaves a good admit of room for mtb rear suspension designs too.
Exciting times ahead for sure 👏
I'm interested why you thought SRAM would be first? Just because they are a pretty innovative bunch? Hopefully, they're working on a gearbox in any case, I welcome more competition in this space. 👊🏼
@@Cyclingabout None of them is first. There's a museum in Tournus (France) that has a bike with a 3-speed gearbox from 1903!
Can someone explain how this is maintenance free. I can see that the internal chains and spockets will have a relatively longevity being free from contaminates and bathed in lubricate but surely these will still have wear. How easy and often will this have to be done?
I usually say 'virtually maintenance-free' or 'almost maintenance-free' on gearbox drivetrains.
- Gearbox manufacturers recommend you change the oil every 5000-10,000km.
- You will have to change the external chainring, chain and cog periodically - which is at 10,000km on chain drive and 30,000km on belt drive.
- You will need to de-grease and lube a chain drivetrain, but a belt drivetrain doesn't require much more than a wipe-down every now and then.
The Shimano gearbox will likely last upwards of 20,000km before the cassettes and chains begin to wear out. Oil changes will likely be similar to a Rohloff or Pinion (5000-10,000km).
@@Cyclingabout But that would still mean exchanging the internal casettes / chain every couple of years for a lot of people. Essentially replacing the whole thing. Thats a very different longevity compared to a rohloff (and pinion?) hub.
@@calaphos I'm speculating, it could be many more kilometres/years than that. The point is the system will require far less maintenance than a derailleur system.
If it is a fully sealed oil bath, like the Fully sealed transmission in cars and axle, it will outlive your entire bike components before it needs servicing, practically maintenance free indeed.
Imagine dealing with all that oil inside. Its like a motorbike
What happened to the KISS principle? My brain itches at the thought of this. In the 1980s Sturmey made a nice 2-lever/2-cable 5-speed based on the pre-war FW hub. They eventually put it in an aluminium shell which made for a solid wheel. It was inexpensive, weathertight, fairly efficient and you could dismantle it, clean it and put it back together within a couple of hours.
What I love about my Rohloff is that I can swap it between bikes. I just finished swapping my Rohloff/Gates from my Co-motion Americano to a Carver 420 Titanium. And I can quickly swap it back to the Co-motion.
Just a piece of cake for every aunt.
Awesome & big! ... next time when I plan on bike around the world, definitely get myself a set. For now, I only use 4-5 gears out of my 9 speed setup.
This will be interesting to see if it does come into the cycling market to say the least. Nice Video!
Shimano will probably come out with a inexpensive gear box now that I've spent my life savings on a Pinion gear box.
I know I'm late to this but did anyone ever find out the efficiency of Alan Milyard's gearbox he put in his son's downhill bike? It was an 8 or 9 speeder with everything including the drive to the rear wheel hidden in a single side swingarm.
Excellent explanation, the biggest issue I see with this system is that you will likely only be able to shift one gear at a time rather than dumping several gears for a tough climb.
The size and weight will also likely be factors in the gearbox design catching on.
You will likely be able to shift multiple gears at a time, just like a high-end derailleur system. That's currently two up and four down.
With electronic shifting it would free up the other side of the bars for hub gear shifter could increase the speeds if its at compatible ratios.
Well explained. There is also one more high end gear hub now, its by a Norwegian brand. Kindernay XIV.
I'd love to see some testing done on the XIV!
That 2chainz cut was dope!
Amazing! Can't wait to have a bike with that gearbox.
Ur gonna wait long time my friend
man, there is a fashion of influencer around in all departments. I don't like at all listening to somebody who tells people how to live, but hey when it comes to you I say this guy is a pro nerd in love with bicycle as few people around. if you keep doing like this you will enter the Olimpo of the cyclist and journalist. I really like the not influencer part of you, the outdoor technical nerd. Great job
Thanks dude! 🙏🏼
No thanks, i don't want to have to pay car prices to have my bicycle "transmission" worked on or replaced
Gearboxes can be simple, strong but not user fixable without tools and skills. For most it would be a disposable part which is fine if you get 100,000 kms.
@loaded brush hopefully made better than VW transmissions.
@@glennoc8585 Are VW transmissions bad ?
@@Guillaume_F well hard to say when VW fudge their emissions
@@glennoc8585 dsg in my touareg has 400xxx kms on it no issues yet
It's a derailuer in a can . It's a very simple idea and its much lighter than a helical geared transmission. All the weight would be low and in the center of the bike. Chains are more efficient than gear boxes.
i think the efficiency will be similar to a conventional drive. The internal chain length is nearly identical throughout the range so whatever tensioner is inside will barely add any additional rotation to the rollers in the chain. the main drive will be similar to a fixie, and the mini chain from the crank to the gearbox will be sealed and optimally lubricated at all times, will offset the efficiency lost to conventional derailleur pulleys.
Yeah, I've exaggerated a bit on the tensioner for simplicity. But the 2.5-3.0 watts per chain are still highly probable. Just running two chains will make your bike less efficient than a derailleur bike.
I agree for commuting and touring it has its merits however for the dedicated MTB pilots that proposed 3kg plus over mixed XC routes will take its toll, yes we can reduce frame weights to compensate but to allow this extremely careful lay ups are required allied to new materials Graphene and Aerogel but retrospectively price starts climbing once more.
The Pinion one comes with a five year warranty!! Deviate are running one on their bike ! For me it means no more expensive drivetrains! Even if the gearbox is pricey I’m not bothered. Great video thanks
The five-year warranty is a very nice service! The Deviate Guide is essentially my dream enduro bike. Unfortunately, they don't make frames big enough for a guy who's 2m tall. 😭
@@Cyclingabout Deviate makes a Guide plenty big enough for someone of that height. It's not like 2 meters is freakishly tall.
@@craigsj I prefer a bigger frame than they currently offer. The bikes are not super-long as is.
@@Cyclingabout Then maybe you should state your preference for abnormally long bikes rather than make false claims about a manufacturer's product. A bike not being "super-long" is not the same as the bike not being suitable for a 2m tall rider.
@@craigsj It's not a false claim to want the right-sized bike. Why the hell would I ride a bike with a longer stem than the bike is designed for, along with a bunch of spacers under the stem because the stack is so low? There are literally dozens of other brands with appropriately sized bikes for me.
small comment! When you record audio with your camera, or atleast during the shots we see you directly through the camera, the audio comes only out of one earset, with your editing video just make sure those tracks are set to mono so we hear you from both :)
Greets!
That's strange, it's coming out of both sides for me!
Granted I didn't cycle 1K+ km with my gearbox system (now retired for many years), but simplicity in bikes really matter. With car you can simply push pedal harder and pay more for gas, but with bike weight, space, efficiency, etc. all those factor matters, because you will feel it in your knees the second you start riding. And price matters too of course. So the reason we don't see gearboxes in bicycles is there is no good reasons to use them (the only one I see is the wheel building).
This is great for UK conditions. Keeping everything sealed makes sense. I guess you could change ratios as in a normal bike, at the expense of them not being so close together. MTB will be the main application as it is heavier and they take on more difficult conditions. The grit in the Peak District (UK) for example - kills bikes. Can see it popular in Holland too. They care less about weight and like bikes to be utilitarian with little maintainence.
You can change the external gear ratio to pick the speed at which the gear range starts and stops, but the 12% average gear steps will always stay the same. Will definitely be a killer drivetrain option for wet/muddy/gritty conditions, my Rohloff/belt drivetrain is my favourite thing about my bike.
Not just centralized weight but a high pivot will be huge for mtb
Wow, brilliant explanations! Really nice job.
What is the source of 0:35? Would love to read more about the test methodology. Had no idea Rohloff was so close to the traditional derailleur systems!
I second this question.
Very nice video man... Great job.
From an MTB point of view, I could live with the extra weight when considering it will be going from unsprung to sprung, but I would not be able to live with a huge gearbox, suspension design and bottlecage all fighting for the same space in the middle triangle. I don't see it working.
This sprung n unsprung thing is total bollocks
Pfft, I remember stripping down a Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub with a front wheel dynamo hub. Things have come a long way since 1972.
That thing is huge.
Reminds me of a story that I read in a German bike magazine. Bernhard Rohloff was approached by a big guy from Shimano (maybe even the CEO) on an exhibition, who told him the following: "You know, my engineers can come up with a 3-stage planetary gear box as well, but it is going to be double the size than yours". I found the original:
Yoshi Shimano, head of the company, comes to the Rohloffs at a trade fair and says: "We could build a 14-speed hub tomorrow. But it would be twice as big and twice as heavy as yours. How do you do it?"
The Rohloff patent expires soon, or even has expired already recently. It would be much wiser from Shimano to copy it and sell it for half the price of the Rohloff version. To put an old-school derailleur system in a massive housing sounds rather "uninspired" to me.
I hadn't heard that story! Just goes to show what a marvel Rohloff hubs are.
They tried to get into that market with the 11 speed alfine gearbox already. While the thing costs half as much as the rohloff, they didnt hafe ma whole lot of success with various reports on their limited reliability. To get a hub with the legendary reliability of a rohloff you need to do more than just copy the design itself. Its also about the right manufacturing process of hardened gears, quality controll, etc. Shimano might be able to compete with the expertise rohloff has build up, but in the end they wont be able to sell it for much cheaper. And with the market for such an expensive bike part being limited, the brand reputation of rohloffs reliability is hard to beat for shimano. I dont think they will be very sucessful with just copying the design. Maybe they can at least copy the shifter cables and indexing system, so their hubs arent such a nightmare with the indexing being off.
I wonder how the Alfine 11 Di2 compares, reliability-wise, to the mechanically-shifted version.
As I understand, and as you point out, the real Achilles' heel of the Alfine 11 is the precision adjustment required to not destroy the hub, combined with cable stretch and the indexing being at the shifter meaning that it's easy to come out of adjustment. (As I understand, the precision needed is because of the total shifter cable pull being the same distance as the previous 7 and 8-speed rotary shift mechanisms, but with more gears in the same distance?)
The Di2 model would, I assume, entirely eliminate that particular failure mode.
...of course, you also run into the lower efficiency of the Alfine 11 (which is only on par with the Pinion P1.18) than the Rohloff Speedhub... and Rohloff has an electronic shifting model (the E-14) too, if you actually want that (although it's only currently available paired to Bosch e-bike drives).
@Maciej Jan Długosz I guess it only feels inefficient due to the noise in the first 7 gears. Have mine now for 5 years and am enjoying it as on the first day. Had many bike journeys with it - one from Yangon to Kuala Lumpur. The hub simply works!
Awesome vid mate!
Just a heads up mate. That intro music isn't actually copyright free, JxmyHighroller (Basketball TH-camr) has been done for multiple videos because that was in his intro. Just thought I'd let you know for future reference!
Cheers! Will have a hunt for different music in the future.
Great video! We will not see any big change regarding bicycles transmission until the day they will find an higher efficiency drive train , with the same weight (more or less) and dimension . The price it is not a big issue ; for a clear better performance I will open my wallet, no problem.
It's a high mark to beat, but perhaps we can get there!
Looks like they improved on the gearbox used in the Honda bike built years ago!
The thing is, shimano should make an universal gearbox that fit on traditional frames ie sit inside the main triangle of the frame.
While that would mean we could put it on any hardtail and roadbike, lots of full sus mtb linkage designs wouldn't allow for that
zeus lim who cares about full suspension?
What for?
Not gonna happen. The only somewhat universal retrofit gearbox drive is the geared hub system like the Rohloff.
Hopefully it will be much cheaper, but because of the chains, you will have to change the stretched chains at sometime, and what of woren gears???
Why does it still have a rear derailers? Some of the illustrations showed a rear derailer, while others showed a belt drive to a single gear in the rear.
Thank you for the explanations, I must comment the background music or i would call it noise is just an unbearable loop.
TTB exactly. the loop is sampled on "Dave Brubeck Quartet"...
I could see myself using this on a commuter bike, maybe. My current commuter bike is a $500 bike, and that is WHY it is my commuter bike. I won't be leaving my Topstone locked up outside anytime soon.
How about just modifying the derailleur system such that the front cog also shifts with the rear derailleur, so that the chain remains straight all the time to improve response and efficiency.
What would the added "Q factor" do to your knees?
They should make the first cassette fit right into the crank arm to reduce 1 chain( will need a special shaped bottom bracket though)
I would love to see a Shimano gearbox with one simple hope, a compatible XTR quality rapid-fire shifter. That is the one thing that has kept me away from both the Rholoff and Pinion. Always wanted to give them a try, can't stand grip shifters.
I suspect an electronic shifter is probably the most likely option for a gearbox. I quite liked the rather tactile XTR Di2 shifter I used on one of my mountain bikes.
@@Cyclingabout I wouldn't be mad at an electric shifter either, I haven't made the jump yet but everyone I know who has say they will never go back. I am avoiding test riding their bikes...
I have owned a MTB with a 12 speed Pinion with grip shifter for nearly a year. When I ordered the bike, I was already looking for a retrofit paddle shift kit. I received the bike and decided to give it a go. After having ridden it a short while, it became intuitive to use the grip shift. Now I wouldn't have it any other way. Moral: If you haven't given it a reasonable chance, how do you really know?
I wonder if one couldn't eliminate some of the metal with opposed cones actuated with a governor system, how about a two-step belt drive to actuate rear hub transmission? There's a lot that can be done, in the future we will perhaps see transmissions with incorporated armatures to make hybrid drive transmissions systems, high-end chains and cassettes may finally go away and cheaper belt drive systems are certainly a possibility, we cannot step on the "toes" of profitability though, so 'trickle-down will be slow.
Very cool info. As a bike tourer, i am definitely interested in this news from shimano. I wonder why the big bike companies like giant & trek haven’t used pinion gear boxes yet? It seems only small independent companies are making bikes with pinion gear boxes & carbon belt drives. And they are VERY expensive! Hopefully if shimano enters the fray, prices will come down.
Price and production volume is your answer!
ᴄ ʏ ᴄ ʟ ɪ ɴ ɢ ᴀ ʙ ᴏ ᴜ ᴛ yeah, i hear ya. But i could see this being a big thing eventually and trickling down to the mass market. Like disc brakes did back in the day. I really like the low maintenance aspect. Especially when on long bike tours. CoMotion & Koga pinion bikes are very expensive. At least for me right now. But a pinion bike with a carbon belt drive called the Priority 600 Ryan Duzer reviewed on his channel looked affordable at about a third of the cost of the ones from CoMotion & Koga. So i may give that a try.
@@BikeTall I have owned a Priority 600X for almost a year now. Love it. The suspension fork from Wren is top notch. The Pinion 12 speed, also top notch. The Gates Carbon Drive is fantastic. One thing I am going to upgrade on the belt drive is shield for the lower (slack) side of the belt. It has been vulnerable to small pea gravel (in wet conditions) landing on it and being transported to the rear cog where it is crushed between the belt and cog. I'm sure this is not conducive to long belt/cog life. If a shield were made to be over this portion of the belt, the problem would mostly go away............
Based on the width of that gear case the q factor will be massive
gotta love new paytents
So, I don't see any upsides over current 1x systems.
1. it's going to weigh more
2. most likely going to cost more.
3. maintenance may be marginally lessened in frequency but will be much tougher and more involved than 1x systems - chain will stretch and cassettes inside will wear.
4. Lower efficency
5. lesser overall gear range than currently on the market.
Excellent vid!
My local college added a bicycle engineering course to its curriculum in the last year or two. As a former student in the college's musical instrument programs, and as a former (old-school) bicycle roadracer who's worked as a mechanic at several bike shops over the years, I took interest in this new turn of events. I had initially imagined that the courses would cover new materials & methods of framebuilding, along with innovative componentry. Later, after looking around at today's market trends, I'd supposed that a lot of the students would be interested in e-bikes. Now I see this, and I'm wondering if bikes of the near future might come in a form that's ready-made for installing any of several competing gearbox-drive systems. This would require that all gearbox & frame manufacturers would develop a shared set of integration standards for achieving universal compatibility. It's also worth noting that the reduction in size & weight of gearboxes also means smaller parts taking on proportionally higher loads, & therefore a reduction in durability emerges as size & weight are decreased, so that's something to focus on during design development. I'll be sharing your excellent video with Minnesota State College Southeast any second now. Thanks tons, I'm betting the students & instructors there will be inspired by it. BTW, I'm already a subscriber.
I know I am late to the party, but this needs to happen. The more manufacturers get on board, the sooner these kind of systems can evolve.
Not gonna happen anytime soon
@@the.communist i do not disagree. But I do recognize the entire industry is still growing and got a huge boost over the last 1.5 years. I also know they are actively engineering gearbox’s as I type these words, so we are not without hope. But I still agree, probably not soon.
Awesome overview of prospective new tech. Through. Thanks!
Cheers!
Hopefully it's not going to be neglected like the Alfine and Nexus, which haven't been updated for modern thru axles standards. Gearboxes don't have to worry about that fortunately.
I dunno about anyone else but I’m keeping my 2x10 and hoping I can get parts for it for many years to come lol
2 by was the best
@@the.communist damn commies lol. No seriously though it really is. I mean it’s all about what works best for people. But I really do use most to all of my range in various situations. I do more long distance cross country riding than anything so when you’re really pushing yourself it’s nice to have so many options to give yourself a break
Hmm..
I would be worried about the short chains wearing relatively quickly... Or would chainwear only be caused by dirt?
I don't think it will happen. Shimano would destroy its after sales market on upgrades and repairs for worn parts. Another great video
Your reviews are dope.
I look forward to some vids on tour. Loooong videos on tour. No pressure.... love ya
20 minutes is all I can watch on other YT videos. I don't want to inflict longer videos on people like me. 😅
imagine when the big bike companies make a 3000$ full suspension gearbox/belt enduro
Great video !!
I would be glad with a system, where I have 9-11 speed on one side, and 2-3 speed on the other side, but with way bigger steps than in a derailleur system. e.g. in a 2x train a half and a normal speed. The bigger part should have some overlap in the modes, so I could select slower ratios in difficult areas, and faster ratios in road without continuously playing with the "front" shifter as well.
After all these advancements and investment that is put into this transmissions, it is loosing in one crucial area.
As far as I am aware of," it is still not able to shift while stationary or after an emergency stop".
Correct me if I am wrong.
I do have some solution for this in my mind, as I am thinking about it for a while now. :)
You can't shift when stationary. The only way this would be possible is if the cog to the rear wheel was fixed, so that the cassettes were always spinning. But then you have a constant drive resistance.
Hello Alee, I don't know anything about Pinion and Rohloff. I think I'll be buying a bike like this with one of these systems next year.
I have a question if both of these systems can work on one bike simultaneously or if Pinion excludes Rohloff and vice versa.
You can technically use both but it'd be very unnecessary.
Great video. So we'll explained compared to others
Thanks Jake!
*With all of the new tech, I look forward to bike prices approaching that of small, used cars.*
Approaching?! There are $14,000 mountain and road bikes from most of the major manufacturers
@@HkFinn83 - *ah, so nit-packing semantics is the objective. Let us know when most people are willing to pay $14,000 for bicycles.*
How do you make such quality videos? Do you have a team?
Thanks! I don't think my videos are that high quality! It's just me. 😎
Never heard from it after 2019...
This could be better than that. Per March 2013 article on Velo Magazine, Molten Speed Wax used 4.75 watts out of 250 watts. That is 98% efficiency. Your 97% singlespeed chain number is more like the garden variety lubricant like White Lightening. Assuming Shimano with their optimized lubricant and surface finish can improve on Molten Wax by 20%, which seems reasonable by their graphs, you are at 95.5% gear box efficiency. That will put you above Rohloff efficiency. If Shimano is cheaper, that could be a game changer.
Good point - lubricants vary widely in terms of resistance, which will skew my numbers a bit.
The singlespeed chain was the control in a test that compared the Pinion gearbox, Rohloff hub and other gearboxes, which is why I've used for this example too. The 97% singlespeed number is based off a machine simulating 200w where the drive resistance was 6-watts. From that test and others, we know that the drive resistance doesn't vary much between 200-250w - so the following numbers shouldn't be too far off.
Assuming the Molten Speed Wax (or an equivalently efficient lube) is used for the three chains of the Shimano Gearbox drivetrain, the 9-watts resistance could drop to 7.2-watts (2.4-watts per chain), bringing us up to ~91% efficiency overall. But the drive efficiency of the Rohloff would also get to increase to 95.1% efficient if it was also tested with Molten Speed Wax.
For fun, let's say Shimano can improve the lube formula by 20% on Molten Speed Wax. That means the three chains will run at 5.75-watts (1.92w per chain @ 200-watts) - plus the pulley and bearings - and it's up around 92.25%.😊
@@Cyclingabout add "milliwatt craving" 2 "gram shaving" slur pile?
Well, no more broken derailleurs and derailleurhangers, less unsprung mass. Sealed. Perfect for mtbs imo. Witch Di2 whatever e-shifting this would be a no brainer if its not to expensive! (Maybe not for XCO if its way more heavy)
Two chains. I saw what you did there! :)
You legend. Thanks for this!
You're welcome!