What SWORDS did the MONGOLS use? Turko-Mongol Sabers
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- What swords did the Mongols use? An introductory look at Turko-Mongol swords (sabers). LK Chen saber featured: lkchensword.co...
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#mongols #genghiskhan #swords
I'm glad you made this video, there's not that much information about Mongol equipment and it's variety/history
There is some, but its mostly regurgitated stuff with little to no actual source evidence and fantasy pieces as examples of what the equipment looked like...
I too am glad that a channel such as this one is starting this topic, and I hope it spirals down the rabbit hole with other similar channels around :)
Obligatory plug for The Jackmeister's channel on YT. He engages heavily with the original sources and provides a lot of nuanced takes. His content is more on the academic side, but if you're already on Matt Easton's channel you could probably make the jump just fine.
Also, Jackmeister has previously contributed a lot to Kings and Generals' Mongol history videos (plus those for some other TH-camrs such as History Dose.)
@@perrytran9504Nice! Thanks for this info, I'll be sure to check out that channel!
@@perrytran9504+1 for Jackmeister!
This is definitely true, as I feel like in general, the only Asian history that seems to interest people is Japanese history. Kinda sad though because then you neglect other countries’ histories like Mongolia and Korea.
I am glad to see Turko-Mongol Sabers and their influence on later swords is talked, hopefully we will see more of them.
i remember arguing with someone in the comments section once because they kept insisting that Mongols were 100% horse archers
It’s amazing what video games do to modern historical understanding. I can’t think of anywhere else this could come from besides as a way to balance them in video games. Perhaps misinterpretation of a history book too?
@@Subutai_Khan the argument started because they claimed no "ninja" would fight like a samurai, i said that probably no two samurai fought the same either. the response back was something like "NO all samurai fought like samurai just like all the Greeks used phalanx warfare and the Mongols used horse archery" so therefore i must be wrong in asserting that samurai didnt all fight the same. mostly they just called me names lol
IF you want to divide up all human combat into one thing, "human combat", you can; just like you could divide up "Mongol combat" or anything else. i am pretty sure they were arguing just for the sake of arguing to make up for something in real life
@@beepboop204 Sounds like the guy got his history lesson from Ghost of Tsushima lol. Must have been a fun time.
Even if they were 100% horse archery they still would have swords and daggers as back up weapons or battle axes maces or war hammers for some units or troops against armored opponents
@@markbennett5812I had a more demeaning version of this directed at me regarding Korean history. I get that archery was the big thing but no army is made of archers without anything else
Your Saber is LK Chen imitated Mongolian Yuan Dao.
Mongolian Sabers of this style have been unearthed in many ancient Chinese canals.
that sword design took the most lives.
means I guess most effective 😶🌫️😉
I do like the look of the off white Ash grip, I originally mistook it for some sort of horn material. I generally change my grips to mammoth ivory because I like the look and feel of ivory but don't want to help stimulate a market for modern elephant ivory.
Hippo ivory is excellent as well.
Is mammoth ivory particularly expensive?
it makes sense if the mongols were using shorter swords -- their horses were shorter/middling sized for the most part. The true power of them came from the cooperation of the arms (especially horse archers) and the military discipline they instilled through all their branches. Feigned attacks were the norm, hit and run, parthian shots, followups and only when the enemy was broken did they pursue. They knew what they were doing, and knew it well. There is of course more to it than a three line paragraph can summarize, but I think this looks correct, and the curvedness makes complete sense from a later point of view as well -- the curve was allegedly for making its use easier for cavalrymen.
Curved swords also are easier to make/maintain.
What's lesser known is they aren't a hodge podge of multi ethnic ppl. The core monogols warriors are fathers and sons, uncles and nephes, brother in laws. If it was not safe, tell your bgrother in law, fall back BIL, sound judgement saves reckless battles. att he same time, when corneded with half his family deaad at their feet, and the other half is clinging for dear life; this is where you find your 5 men surrounded by 5K pile of enemy soldiers, and don't know if you should cry for their bravery or weep for the stupidity of the enemy. This ame mentallity was then extended to tothe rethnicityes who definitley appreiciated 9it since no other army treated you like equals, not even here in America . So the Mongols are truly a diamond in the annals of history.
Crazy how popular the mongols are but we don’t see their weapons outside the compound bow ever mentioned or shown in videos.
Despite how large their empire was, some parts are not so well documented compared to others. Surviving specimens of equipment are uncommon just as in other places of this time period, and written sources while plentiful are difficult to study because they are in multiple languages (since you know, the Mongols interacted with highly diverse civilizations.) But there is a good amount of written description of what kind of things they used, and Persian artwork is particularly valuable to see what they actually looked like. Still not easy for modern armorers/bladesmiths to reconstruct anything and there probably aren't as many people commissioning it anyway.
That is a fascinating subject. I would like to see a introduction video about the Seljuk weapons, specially about their horseman swords and their bows.
Curved swords were also quite common in Hammerfell.
Those Mongols really got _everywhere_ 😁
@@ArkadiBolschek Gimme a new race for Elder Scrolls 6 inspired by them. Last time we had a new playable race was all the way back with orcs in Morrowind.
@@perrytran9504 In the various time periods the games are set, the only major races knocking about on Tamriel are the ones you can play. You would have to go much further afield to places like Akavir. Atmora would just have more Nords, Yokuda sunk into the ocean in the First Era. Pyandonea has the Maormer on it, but they're just fish elves, and also featured in ESO. If TES6 isn't on Akavir, which it probably won't be, then you're stuck with Imga, maybe Reachmen.
They also have curved swords. Curved. Swords.
Matt; I recently purchased an excavated example at Auction. Blade is intact though the pommel has separated. I’d be happy to send you dimensions and photos, since you are “gathering information”. I live in Minneapolis, and have been friends with Arms and Armor since they started. Planning on having them make me a reproduction blade, so I can practice with it.
About shashka… in Russian speaking circles of experts it’s widely believed that it came actually from a knife, probably, agrarian vine cutting knife that eventually grown up to a sables size. Yet it’s very different than a sable in its balance and thus technique of use
8:30 Other early Hungarian /Avar sabers has this design as well
Awesome Matt!. I always like seeing when the Mongle Sabres get some attention. A great example from LK Chen.
A few quick notes :
During the Avar period the
guards would’ve had simple straight crosses, either with small bulbs or long quillons. we do see the beginning of one of the two most popular types of guard for these sabers, which is the star guard. The other type is what is seen on this example, which is called the boat guard. You can find forward, swept quillons during the ninth and 10th centuries on Magyar and Alan swords, as well as in the 14th century on Golden Horde Sabres.
Tunkou will likely predate the actual “Sabre” blades, showing up first on Turkic backswords (along with yelmen, and originally being quite ornate. While there are similar Chinese structures the nomad examples will be different by having an extended edge (usually innate cutting side) and often being iron and hammer welded to the blade. These will eventually be introduced to China via groups like the Liao during the Song dynasty.
This was really good! Thank you for the historical walk through while waving an amazingly gorgeous sword!
Great video! I am new to the channel. The fact that you are pronouncing Chingiz Khan closer to the correct version tells me that you have done some reading on the subject.
I would say just the the arabic armies in the crusades used straight double edged sword while the turkic ones definitely used curved swords.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge... I so wish you would talk about the function of those features... every time I think your about to get to the real interesting part about why they have those characteristics and how they used them, you tend to over elaborate other topics.... still though, thank you!
I will come back to these. They are very interesting swords and were hugely influential on so many cultures.
@@scholagladiatoria Will you touch on some Korean swords? I know they are designs of their neighbors incorporated into existing sword types but I would like to hear your thoughts since you provide a non biased view.
@@scholagladiatoria just to be clear, I am grateful you take the time to share your expertise with us and I always enjoy listening to your stuff, hope you have a good day sir!
I was one of the many who asked you if you could talk about melee weaponry in the Mongol armies many years back in comments! So glad you've gotten around to doing it!
I truly appreciate the context that you provide about all these different weapons. You knowledge is amazing and you do such a good job of presenting it in an enjoyable fashion.
Thank you!
Good historical analysis. Would have liked some comments about the functional aspects of the sabre, ie why the Mongols did this instead of that. But still good!
It’s a very lovely reproduction. It’d be cool to see LK Chen do a 17th century Eastern Europe style saber like the Karabela.
Thanks Matt for this great video. You answered a question I never knew I had.
Eurasian nomads predominantly used sabres. In Hungary sabres were used from nomadic times up to the medieval times when the predecessor of modern light cavalry was first employed. Later many Western European armies adopted light cavalry as well as sabres, so that you can see the obvious similarity in light cavalry sabres of different ages and countries.
The historian jackmeister has a documentary on medieval mongolian smitging and heavy cavalry on YT. For anyone interested
When you show the Mongol sabre next to the modern sabre; to me it seems like they have their curvature in different parts of the blade. The Mongol one having its curve notably closer to the hand, and an almost straight section towards the tip - the modern sabre straight at the handle, curved towards the tip.
Is that a general trend or just coinsidence?
Interesting as always 👍👍👍.
Awesome! Great video choice. Keep us on the Steppes for a while please.
One thing I'd add - when sabers were becoming popular in Hungary in the 14th Century it's actually a return to old traditions ;) Magyars (the cultural group Hungarians descend from) fought mostly as horseback archers, led a nomadic lifestyle and used sabers almost identical to the Avar ones. They only adopted (and very quickly too!) feudal european culture and fighting style after they were beaten back by Otto III, and were so impressed they decided to become like western knights.
I assume that the Turko-mongolic sabre is the descendant of the long double edged blades that developed in Western Siberia and East Asia after the spread of iron production which were themselves were descendants of the last bronze age blades.
We see parallel developments of the Chinese Jian, Japanese tachi and Sassanid Persian blades from the same period, all using a similar form. The Turko-mongolic sabre seems like a development of this sword form with enhancements to increase cutting power during the literal slashing attacks used by mounted combatants.
11:00 They arent stronger cutters. However they do help in edge alignment a bit.
If they are very curved (the persian styles, but they are later period) then the are slightly better at cutting if you punch cut, but as i mentioned not at drawing cut or direct cut.
In general, Curved swords advantage is that they are easier to make/maintain. Thats a very good attribute for nomadic horse tribes.
10:04 Matt you told us all about the feature but not what it does, is it to retain in the scabbard or perhaps to keep damp out. Eventually it becomes a stylistic vestige only
I believe the Turko-Mongol saber was descended from the Xiongnu ring pommel swords (Huan shou dao). This was a straight single edged horseman's sword used form at least the Qin dynasty and popular in China between the Han and Tang dynasties, so over a thousand years. They spread to the Korean peninsula by at least the second century and the Japanese archipelago by at least the sixth.
In Japan the huan shou dao evolved into the chokuto, which was later given a curved blade, becoming the tachi and katana.
And by the time the Xiongnu became the Avar and Huns they had also discovered the joys of a curved blade, spreading the gospel of fire and blood across western Asia and East Europe.
Damn it now I have to buy this sword hah. It's so cool seeing how interconnected the world is over time, thanks for making this video.
Very informative, could you do another on the specific features and the pros and cons of each of this type of sword? Handling, cutting ability, balance, hardness, all the good stuff.
Thanks,
Bob L
Palm Beach Gardens, Florida, USA
Earned a new subscription. Mongols are historically, organisationally really underrepresented, especially in light of their relevance.
It seems it also influenced the Japanese. The tachi that evolved to the typical katana, got it typical gentle curve after or during the Mongol Invasions
That's absolute bullshit we have examples of curved tachi literally centuries before the Genghis khan was even born let alone his descendants who tried to invade Japan.
Thanks for the video, truly informative and entertaining.
I wondered if there's some evidence of a connection between the turko-mongol sabers and the japanese tachi (and later uchigatana)? The habaki on japanese swords seems, to my eyes at least, to resembe the tūnkǒu on the turko-mongol sabers in some regards. There also seems to exist a japanese tachi called 'Kogarasu Maru', believed to have been crafted around the 8'th centry, with a single-edged blade that turns into a double-edged blade towards the tip, somewhat similar to the design of the turko-mongol saber you present here.
Just a question that struck me while watching the video.
Have a nice day.
Best regards,
Steffen
13:15 That’s interesting, I had thought that the curved sword of the Mongols was influenced by the Persians but it’s the other way round. Now when we thought of Muslim swords, we thought of very curved swords, who would have thought they weren’t before the Mongol invasion.
I recommend "A Study of the Eastern Sword: Kirill Rivkin (the author)" to anyone interested in the topic. He has a lecture of the same name here on TH-cam.
Finally someone have shown right exact turco-mongolian sabre that being used for centuries acros the continent by nomad cavalry and not those ones that claimed to be "mongolian" sabre and having a fancy look of ninja style with massive short blade. God damn finally historical aproach to the subject. There are dozens graveyards accros the great steppe from Ukraine to West Mongolia that this type of sabres are found the most and what really unique is that they are all the same but from different eras
Awesome subject! I really enjoyed it. Cheers, folks!
Thanks for this video, Matt...... Will definitely be useful as I'm starting up a White Scars army, so I'll be able to give them some unique melee weapons 👌
Correct me if I'm worng, but according to my knowledge both of the specific saber types displayed in the video (the mongol and french), served very similar purpose, which is a sword of light cavalary, as opposed to some other types of sabers used in history including the generations weapon that separate the two in time. Which would be very interasting, because I don't thing the people who developed modern sabers have access to savers other than contemporery, i.e. they had to do without knowledge that this particular form is most effective for light cavalary.
the false edge on single edged blades originated in Nomadic central Asia and became influential in both Europe and East Asia
....A Mongol cavalry charge? Did that happen?!? God, what would that even look like???
I'd like to know, what is it that made this shashka-like sword design so influential? what are its strengths as weaknesses?
Where did you buy that beautiful sword??😅😅
I am playing RPGs for decades now and I always wonder about the different stats for weapons in some RPGs. So I have one question: How important are the form, weight etc. of the blade and of the hilt? Would changing the hilt change behavior of the weapon? or is the blade all that matters?
I think everything in a weapon matters if you make it in a certain way. Blade form affect what the weapon could do. Sword handguards affect protection to the hands which affect swordsmanship style. Handle length affect whether it is a single handed or two handed weapon.
Changing the hilt affect how you handle the weapon.
Some dagger or swords may have a handle bent because this actually align the blade to the arm straighter than with a straight handle. This makes it more comfortable to stab and may also impart an automatic slicing motion on the target when cutting.
I’ve been considering this sword for a while
Is this the weapon that features so prominently in the final battle scene of the movie, Mongol?
Am I missing something? As so far every time I've visited the antiques store there only appears to be 2 or 3 swords for sale? Yet you show the French heavy cavalry sword in this video for example and it's not listed, perhaps that's due to the delay of video production so it has sold already but I didn't see it in that section either. I was keen to see the recently unboxed/unwrapped swords you did with Lucey for sale but haven't seen them at all. Do they go to auction sites instead, or are they still being restored/kept in your collection etc...? Cheers.Fascinating video!!
9:57 And what was the purpose of this additional sheet of metal in front of the blade?
That blade wrap is 吞口 (used in video) or the more popular term 劍顎
Mongols used light cav with sword + bow, and heavy cav with lance + sword. The role of light cav is to weaken enemies, take out foot archers (yes, for real), skirmish, wear out .. then the heavy cav deals killing blow. Basically not just horse archers.
Thanks- interesting and info-packed- would like to hear more about mongoloid weapons! A bit on Russian and east Euro swords, especially Russian- would be very interesting...
Matt! My friend, I've been watching your channel so long I've gone through 2 Scholagladiatoria t-shirts! Worn them til they're plain black t shirts, lol 😅 Cheers
It's the first time I hear about the Bytantine paramerion. I don't think it's mentioned frequently enough in the context of the history of sabers. I hope we can learn more about it in your later videos!
A bit of a stupid question, but would its influence on various sabres everywhere be due to its shape being particularly well-suited to cavalry use?
Absolutely. Curved swords are much better for cavalry. I found straight blades have a tendency to get knocked out of hand.
Knucklebow guards are a necessity, IMO. At least I you like having your fingers still attached. 😁
For central Europe and the Byzantine empire the sequence of arrivals and influences is, more or less, Avars and Bulgars, then Hungars, then Mongols.
Nice. More videos about the Mongols, please.
12:20 The dao has been the primary military sword in China since the Han dynasty around 100bc ish
Really interesting Matt!
Cool saber!
Very good analysis overall. The only contention I have is that the Jian sword largely disappeared from the battlefields in China from the Han dynasty onwards, about a thousand years before the rise of the Mongols in the 12th and 13th centuries. It's much more likely that the Chinese were influenced by their arch enemy during the early Han dynasty, the Hsingnu, which some believe to be the same group known to the West as the Huns. The Huns would have left their legacy across the steppes in their migration from East to West and influenced many later groups across their path.
In fact, Attila is not a Khan (the king according to your) since during an attack, most of the army is left in the rear to the homeland, to protect (in this case from the Chinese), and naturally a general (In this case Attila) is sent with small troops. It is explained very simply. His sudden retreat was due to a messenger with a letter from Khan.
I really love these types of sword allot more than more Asian swords like the katana and dow .....the Russian heavy sabors i don't know exactly what the called but they a bit of a mix of Asian and European inspired swords are very cool. It must have been the Turkish influence that created them
Canada! Where in Canada?
Matt, regarding the fitting/ricasso on this sword. Why was it irregularly shaped? Also, why was the extra bit on the front? If it was for guarding a stress riser from impact then I see how it was on the front. I could also see how it could be on the back instead for support...
Thanks. 😀
I think its important to note that Hungarians had been using sabers at least since the 9th century with the arrival of their Magyar ancestors in the Hungarian steppe. They were using sabers long before contact with the mongels.
New King Charles photo shows him with an odd naval sword. The guard has swirls unlike the usual
What about the metallurgy of these swords. Were they of high quality steel or iron?
I mean... "outskirts of Europe" for early sabers isn't that accurate. From about 9th century you have a fairly well attested sabers from Baltics through Poland and Hungary to the Balkans - enough so that we see some regional variants. Hungary sees an uninterrupted use of sabers until they get replaced by the assault rifles, we find them in pre-Christian graves as well as later art (e.g. Chronica Picta ~1330-1370). Hell, we even have a fusion of the European sword trends and sabers and get the bastard sabre, whose name is now apt twice! (one is in Budapest's National museum, you see them in aforementioned Chronica Picta) And yeah, this may well be where the inspiration for krieges messer comes from, but it is impossible to prove either way.
It should be noted, though, that while probably not used exclusively by the nomadic mercenaries or nomads settling in these kingdoms, the sabres were definitely *associated* with the nomads. Chronica picta shows these sabers in nomad hands exclusively, although that may well be because the people ordering it were Italian (Naples branch of Anjou family) and wanted "their" people equipped with the new swaggy gear from their cultural circles.
Great information, very enjoyable
The mongol warrior in the thumbnail is afraid of you.
very clearly, people complained about handles falling off the entire time.
Oh, that is a *nice* sword! LK Chen keep making swords I want, and I have to padlock my wallet!
I would like to say that Hungary did not adopt sabers in the 14th century. The sabers were already in use at the 9th century and before since the Hungarians were originally horse nomadic group from Central Asia. The sabers were used from 10th-15th century but mainly at the Eastern Borderlines where there have been contacts with the Turkic groups (such as Ottomans, Pechenegs, Cumans, etc.) or the territories inside the Kingdom where there were settlements of Turkic people. But ofcourse they were not that popular, only mainly in the 16th century the sabers came back in use when the Ottomans conquered middle of Hungary.
Why did later cavalry tend to use a slicing sabre type sword rather than a chopping kopis like blade like Alexander the Great? Is it just easier to inflict slicing wounds when riding at speed, are the heavy chopper blades too unwieldy for cavalry?
Interesting how many cultures eventually go from straight swords to curved swords. For instance, Japan, China, Germany, Muslim. As a rule of thumb, I'd say straight swords are better for unarmored and curved for armored combat.
thanks
What about swords used by Attila the Hun?!?!
Could you make a video about those?!
I'm curious, is there any evidence that those people used the first sabers with a saber grip?
Don't be silly, we had curved cavalry sabres from the times of the Delhi Sultanates and their fights with the Mongols, way before the Timurids/Mughals made their way to the Indian Subcontinent. Turko Mongol influence BEFORE the Mughals in the Indian subcontinent is extremely underrated and earlier than people expect in popular culture.
When it comes to Mongols and Turkic steppe nomads, I think their swords were overshadowed by their bows.
Ok definitely didn’t expect Mongolian swords to be the grand daddy of sabers😂
I would wonder if the construction at the base of the blade was 1) to avoid chipping the blade in a parry, and 2) to aid in retention in the scabbard. Were the Huns part of that grouping? Why do you suppose someone thought to make a curved blade in the first place?
I wouldn't say they are prototype of 19 European sabres... but an example of convergent evolution
Length of the sabre likely depends on the size of the horse.
Would i rather have a powerful chopper, or be better at thrusting? The big philosophical questions
Makes you kind of wonder how swords through out the world would have evolved if it wasn't for the Mongols.Not saying that similar swords would have never appeared but I find it interested how the Mongols seemed to have influenced sword development throughout the world so much via spreading so far.
Thank you for pronouncing Genghis correctly.
We are very well aware of 'Oriental Dancers' behaviors' of the western historians on these kinds of subjects. They never tell the true historic realities. Thank you sir, every word out your mouth (and, of course transcripts) is appreciated very much as you don't abstain yourself telling the right historical facts and occurrences in every statement and word. Thank you very much.
What about Japan?
Japan seems to follow the Chinese in the transition from jian-type to straight dao-type swords, with the katana having its origin in straight Tang-dynasty dao brought from China. But, the Japanese eventually curved the blades. Though they famously weren't conquered by the Mongols, it seems likely that either directly or secondarily via Chinese forms, the Mongols would have impacted Japanese designs. Perhaps the Mongols are what influenced the Japanese to curve what had been straight dao-based swords. Or perhaps they were influenced by Chinese swords which were themselves influenced by Mongols.
If nothing else, simply saying that the transition to dao from jian was influenced by Mongol and other Turkic groups, does imply a huge impact on Japan, as the typical swords of Japan seem to descend from the very dao which came to prominence in China.
Look up the Emishi and Ainu swords, they wee the prototype katanas but they were probably turko-mongol blades originally compared to the Yamato jians and daos but the details are unknown.
@@akumagouki8668 Highly doubtful. Emishi blacksmithing was not similar to Chinese or Mongol blacksmithing so that connection is unlikely.
15:42 I'm sorry, but you are wrong about shashka, as it's not sable, but actually a knife, kinda like machete. They only appeared in 16 century in Circassia. And the name shashka came from Circassian word "сэшхуэ" which means "a long knife". Sables were in use in Russia and the Caucasus long before that. So, these two are quite different.
Here's a link:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shashka
can you make a video about pretzel guard? Why? Advantage?
11:09 I mean ... what is conquest if not VERY rough contact....
That's the most oddest looking Mongol saber i have seen. Looks like a slightly curved double edged sword. Also, how did you forget to mention the earliest sabers have been found in the tombs of Xiongu & Xianbei people as far back as 5th century BC?
Do you have a reference source like an archeological paper or something for the 5th century BC Xiongnu iron saber?
@@thescholar-general5975 Not a paper but i found this on Wikipedia;
_The earliest examples of curved, single edged Turkish swords can be found associated with the late Xiongnu and Kök-Turk empires. These swords were made of pattern welded high carbon crucible steel, generally with long slightly curved blades with one sharp edge_
@@GreaterAfghanistanMovement I see, technically the late Xiongnu early Kök-Turk would be more like 5th century AD and not BC. The wikipedia article does cite the following paper in turkish:
Ögel, Bahaaddin, "Türk Kılıcının Menşei ve Tekamülü Hakkında"
Thanks for leading me to this! I will dig into it sometime later.
@@thescholar-general5975 Late Xiongu period at the latest is 1st century CE. The first curved swords appeared in the BC period, i find the 6th century to early.
@@GreaterAfghanistanMovement You need to have a real citation with archeological evidence to support that claim if you are going to persuade me.
Want a video upon "Shashka".
Awesome!
I'd love to hear more about the development of these early sabers.
Were they a native mongol invention or did they get the idea from elsewhere?
I would also be interested in the straight, islamic swords of the crusade era & how they compare with European swords of the time?
Great video, cant wait to hear more about the mongols 😊
Review? Still waiting for one on the Kvetub Montante you promised when you got it.
A very similer influence for nomadic curly bow. Turko-Mongol bow has almost same journey from central asia.
Their bows came from Scythians
Contrary to most popular media, the first Assassin's Creed game got the straight «Saracen» swords right!
I've been meaning to ask, could you explore swords in India and the Middle East during the European Middle Ages?