Very Curved 'Scimitar' Type Swords are WORSE than Straighter Swords?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Very curved swords, with scimitar-like blades, have been considered almost useless as weapons by some writers. Many people consider straight swords like the spadroon and rapier inherently superior swords for combat on foot, but here I challenge that opinion.
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Anyone else notice how well the curved sword contoured to Matt's body when he was demonstrating close quarter maneuvers (beginning c. 18:40)? Not sure if that geometry has any other uses than minimizing your chance of accidentally hitting something, but it's certainly an interesting, almost artistic visual.
I don't think that's accidental. My grandfather had a diary that belonged to *his* grandfather who, it transpired, was part of the British expedition that defeated the Mahdi in Sudan. He and it are both unfortunately no longer with us courtesy of the same house fire, but in it he described 'dervishes' fighting 'inside their scimitars' rather than holding their swords out like his officers. That description has confused me for two decades up until I saw Matt do that; you could absolutely describe that as being inside the curve of the blade.
Yeah I can’t help but think it would be far more likely to block something you weren’t noticing while you are focused on who is in front of you.
I recall seeing Chinese artists doing "broadsword" (Dan Dao) forms in which they draw the spine of the sword very closely across their body. At the time I thought it was just a flash move but maybe there's some utility, like repositioning the blade in close quarters without slashing nearby buddies?
That was the very thing that got my attention.
yeah, good spot
One thing I'm surprised that isn't mentioned is something I read somewhere years ago: this extreme degree of curvature corresponds very closely to the arc of motion described by a swordsman's arm, allowing a swordsman to maximize the length of a draw cut, and thereby inflict very deep lacerations, since the sword is slicing, rather than hacking through the target.
That comes down to EXTREMELY tight tolerances and kinesthetic details. A master could fit one to a wielder who knew what they wanted, but there is no way to make one that will just operate that way for any hand. Because the ratios of our arm bones, shoulder width, height, and differences in tendon and ligament attachment locations it is very very hard to get the arc and length right for this. I can't properly wield a sword as curved as this, so there are definitely subtleties I'm not aware of, but, I have made and restored swords to order and encountered this issue several times. Matt may know of a "formula" or method that existed to help make them, but I've never found one and I went looking into Renaissance texts like "The Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini" to seek old metal working techniques. From that, I can say if some calculus for this did exist it is incredibly esoteric knowledge.
@@warpdriveby If you're talking about perfecting this matchup of curvature to arm length to the Nth degree, sure. In practical terms, I don't think it is nearly as meticulous as that. The degree of curve doesn't have to be _perfectly_ matched to an individual swordsman. A curvature such as that seen here, can allow a user to make extremely long draw cuts in the manner I described -- and Indeed, Matt, in one of his videos about Indian talwars, and their hilts with their short grips and disk pommel, seems designed to lock the grip solidly into the hand, and almost necessitate this technique.
All in all, a sword with a blade this curved seems optimized for long, slicing cuts, as opposed to hacking or cleaving the way a straighter cutting blade would be.
Mind, if the blade actually conformed to the arc of the cut, it wouldn't cut at all; to cut into an object you need not only a slicing motion, but also constant forward pressure to push it through the already cut material and into the material yet to be cut, otherwise you're just tickling the very surface.
Also, I've never seen a sword blade with a curve uniform throughout its length - even the one Matt holds in this video starts out angled forward and only very slightly curved in the first third or so, grows increasingly sharply curved through the middle part, and then starts to straighten out again towards the tip. (This type of distally varying curvature seems almost universal with shamshir and tulwar, and in later Turkish kilij develops into an actual recurve.)
@@MikkoKuusirati "Mind, if the blade actually conformed to the arc of the cut, it wouldn't cut at all..."
Sure it would. The swordsman would supply the necessary forward force -- the human arm doesn't have _just_ a shoulder joint. The elbow and wrist also come into play, and the swordsman will use them to ensure the blade is forced _into_ the cut as it slices.
I swear some of you are taking this far too literally, as though the smiths who made these blades pulled out a tape measure and calipers, perfectly matched the blade to the swordsman, and then the sword is made as if to be locked 100% rigidly to the swordsman's arm, and the edge will _always_ be _precisely_ 25.672 inches from the shoulder joint throughout the whole of the cut, every time the swordsman delivers a cut, just like the circular blade of a meat slicer in a delicatessen.
Come on folks. This is getting _really_ nitpicky and overly literal. The extreme curve of blades like this, matched to the motion of the arm, is and only has to be _an approximation_ of the arc of motion of a man's arm, that allows a swordsman to deliver much longer, slicing cuts than a straighter blade would. And this also allows for slight variations in arm length between swordsmen, as well as variations in the curvature of the blade itself.
@@Hibernicus1968 I only meant that as an extreme example for illustrative purposes. I guess I could have made that clearer, but like I said, I've never seen a sword blade that actually conforms to _any_ arc; IME the degree of curvature always varies more or less dramatically from one point to another along the blade's length.
Seeing you go through fast defense stances with the scimitar really showcases their effectiveness. Doing it so fast one can follow the blade forming a cage around the wielder.
This style of fencing was developed in XVI century in Poland its called cross cutting th-cam.com/video/7ANGHO096-Y/w-d-xo.html
One more point of context is the curved sabre wielded in conjunction with shields (including improvised ones such as cloaks) and/or offhand weapons could well be more effective than a spadroon. Also, if it has a sharpened yelman or false edge you can not only thrust around obstacles but also do wicked back cuts.
Shields or daggers added to any one handed weapon obviously give advantage, but what does this have to do with comparing spadroons and curved sabres?
@@schrodingersat9501 Suppose you are wielding a very curved saber and a shield against someone with a spadroon. Having a shield means you can close distance much easier, and this has two main effects:
1. It mitigates a lot the disadvantage in reach that your have against your spadroon-armed opponent
- and above all -
2. It triggers the combo: if you can easily get very close to your opponent it's just perfect, because that's when your deeply curved saber gets the chance to shine the most.
@@marcoboldrini9138 >Suppose you are wielding a very curved saber and a shield against someone with a spadroon.
Suppose you are wielding a spadroon and dagger against someone with a very curved saber ...
I don't question the obvious. Cutting weapon + shield = strong combination. But is it appropriate to compare someone fighting with two hands against one handed opponent?
@@schrodingersat9501 You beat me it, but good on you because you did in much detail and knowledgeable way. I have seen people from other culture teaching how to fight with similar swords and they do go around shields. British did fight shield bearing foes in africa and asia.
Also not the same thing, but certain types of calvary sabres were intended for thrusting from horseback and the curve allows you to pull out as the horse carries on or so I have read.
General Douglas MacArthur, Chief of Staff, U.S. Army after his troops attacked the Bonus Marchers in 1932 outside of Washington, DC was asked by a reporter claiming he saw a sabre used to slash off an ear. IIRC: MacArthur said you thrust with a sabre and not slash.
Had this exact thought as someone familiar with a talwar.
Also when you're in messy melee, thrusting your sword into a target means there's a moment where you can't defend with it (especially against multiple opponents). I recall one of Matt's videos from a few years back, there was a fencing tip to cut rather than thrust when against multiple opponents.
Also one account where and English officer with a cutting sword duelled a French officer with a small sword - the French officer's thrust hit an arm, then the English officer cut him down.
I agree, I was thinking in a war battlefield multiple combatants, would make stabs more dangerous as a body might fall and take the thrusting blade or purposely hold it in them to allow their comrades to get in attacks. the slashing weapon would allow attacks to defends easier in a multi combatant scenario in most cases, But like he said this is a last ditch weapon to attempt to survive not a first choice.
@@TriariusMetzer yup too much commitment to a single enemy when there are many
Thrusts to the body are more likely to get stuck &/or need time to pull them out, during which you can get a nasty slash in return, or from another opponent taking advantage of your delay.
Anyone who believes heavily curved swords are bad clearly hasn't used or handled them.
A note on them being utilitarian: mine is a straight up 1796 style hilt, steel, undecorated blade. Also well sharpened.
I think almost all I have seen had plain sharpened blades, and certainly all those I have owned and sold did. So I simply don't buy the argument that these were being made for fashion or dress reasons. All the actual evidence suggests that these were being bought to use.
It needs to be so curved you can scratch your back while you go into high guard.
@@scholagladiatoria the fact there are accounts of these "halfmoon" sabres breaking in combat is evidence they were used in earnest - and potentially that some were poorly heat treated, but that's pretty much unrelated to the design itself.
Or considered the fact that they wouldn't have been used, if they were not effective.
Islam didn't spread by the precepts of its book, but by extremely and prolonged successful war.
Mr. Easton's delivery in his videos has really become polished and energetic over the last couple years. It was always interesting here, but his joyful engagement with the subject he so clearly loves becomes more evident over time. :) Great work, as always!
Made me remember Skyrim guards memes: "those Redguard, I hear they have CURVED swords!"
If I never heard another skyrim quote, I could die happy lol.
that's what I remembered too lmao.
I think that was the reference.
Another point that may have been significant. Going against a spear, even an improvised one like a bayonet, usually involves negating the reach advantage by getting close. The spadroon keeps you in its effective range, and thus vulnerable. The curved officer sword allows you to get close enough to mostly negate the spears advantages, without compromising your own. While theyre trying to reposition the weapon for butt attacks, or adjust their hand positioning to bring the spear back into play, the officer sword is still effective at what is little more than knife fighting range.
Context strikes again!
My buddies and I had just been discussing how these half moon “flank officers swords” became the rage for a time and your huge experience with examples offers great evidence as to how they were used. Just because something it’s a fad doesn’t mean it’s dead weight ;-)
When it came to swords during this time period, none of the swords were really dead weight. They had a thousand years of optimization behind them, it was basically a matter of individual training and preference how effective each sword was. The heavy cavalry saber was likely the most effective weapon, and the only reason everyone wasn’t carrying one was because they weighed a lot and were inconveniently long. They weren’t carrying around a spear for the same reason, even though that would have certainly given them an advantage when things got hairy.
The bayonet on a gun really was a darned effective weapon, spears always do spear things. In extremis, the soldier with a bayonet rifle was on roughly equal footing with an officer armed with a sword. Most officers were probably at least as concerned about weight as functionality, since they were probably screwed if it got to that point.
18:41 I don't know why, but seeing Matt swinging the sabre in perfect arcs was one of the must oddly satisfying and cool things I've seen in ages.
I read somewhere - possibly in "Swords around the Throne" that the extreme curve was favoured by Eastern swordsmen because they fought hand to hand at much closer ranges and the curved weapon allowed them to effectively cut in a very close melee - especially when mounted whereas a straighter sword might not even be able to contact at all. I don't know if this is true, but many French adopted them after fighting against mamelukes in Egypt (mamelukes were considered expert individual swordsmen) and the weapon was frequently referred to as "a la mameluk".
No.. Itis cultural preference to cut.. Thats all most cultures preferred cutting.. And not fencing with the blafes look back at celtic or viking cutting swords
@@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367 I don't think the question is about why a cutting blade was used but why such an accentuated curve was used. You can still cut without the massive curve shown on many eastern blades. You can also cut with straight blades so what would make you choose such an extreme curve. While it might just be cultural is there also a practical element to it?
@@steveconway1948 Either as cavalry (especially light cavalry) or AGAINST said cavalry, assuming you can avoid being ridden down, a straight sword is going to give your arm a more severe impact shock compared to the more "draw cut" of a curved blade. But I do agree that such an extreme curvature DOES seem excessive. I'd prefer the "Lady Vivamus" from Glory Road myself LOL
Saber were common from XVI century in central europe. I think they introduced it to the 'mainstream' - check polish hussars
Curved swords are obviously superior for mounted warriors. This video was concerned almost exclusively with the use of a super-curved sabre by infantry officers.
At Isandlwana, where the Zulu overran the British camp and the killing was done at extremely close quarters, officers with sabres held out a lot longer than the bayonet armed troops did. How curved those blades were, I can't say, but the term "sabre" is the one that came up in the sourcing, and the Zulu veterans were quite adamant about how dangerous the men armed with them were.
That's one of two minor quibbles about the film Zulu, when Michael Caine unbuckles his sword for return to store before the action begins, and the other is the soup.
Zulu veterans is one of the biggest oxymorons I've ever heard.
@@Mike-pv3hg Because what, Zulu survivors of the war don't deserve to be considered veterans of the battles they fought in?
@joaopk6263 And apparently struggles with the meanings of basic words like "veterans."
@João P K there were far more African groups that were on their way to becoming “rome” than the Zulus don’t disrespect the continent like that.
The Zulus were more akin to Sparta, a barbaric society founded on war and obsessed with war their development compared to west and East African civilisations was super low and an contingent of 4000 Sokato Caliphate horsemen would easily take over all of Zulu land
The "oh crap!" explanation is stellar! It's a melee, not a duel with only one other person. You need to quickly hit anyone who gets close.
The curved blade might also be more practical to carry around in scabbard on campaign. certainly a consideration for an officer whose primary job is directing/managing his troops not fighting. It might be carried for 365 days and used for 30 seconds, many people will opt for something convenient, often rationalising that "It won't happen to me".
i am pretty sure people forget about this and only look at the 30 seconds of use. if 1 sword is great in those 30 seconds but is more inconvenient than a sword almost as good as a sword in those 30 seconds then the less good one is the better sword for the context.
I've never carried around a curved sword, but I will say that my 35" blade is often bangs against things I'm stepping around (such as a table) and a shorter blade might be vastly preferred when marching in a column.
I heard an anecdote somewhere (It might have even been on this channel) from the journal of a British officer in Syria of Syrians using highly curved swords in crowds, holding the blades very close to their bodies... Apparently they were really hard to deal with if they got into melee, because if you tried to grapple with someone using this sword technique they'd either lash out with short quick strokes or interpose the blade in the way of any attempts to grab them... Even if they just rotated on the spot and you'd stand a good chance of getting slashed.
I'm glad you posted this as I have the same recollection but yours is more specific regarding who was using the curved blade and who was trying to neutralize them. The account I read involved a Syrian (if your reminder lead to my accurate recollection) who put himself in the middle of a squad of British soldiers in a crowded street or market. The SOB with sword was spinning, changing direction and distance and the soldiers couldn't get close to disarm and to discharge their weapons endangered their fellows as well as anyone on the crowded street.
It is my speculation that we both read the same anecdote so we report the same incident but the effectiveness of this one man with a scimitar lends credence to the effectiveness of a very curved blade in melee and supports the theory that when soldiers bought them with their own hard earned money it was in hopes of surviving the next encounter rather than to wear a plain sword with their mess, dress mess.
@@bozzskaggs112 Hi there, interesting anecdote... can you give a timeline or date, I would like to know more. WWI or more recent?
@@davidrushworth4787 Post WWII. I think it was in 60's. I looked for before posted my comment. It might have been in a blog in a conversation connected to Cold Steel and a Tulwar. WOW, its refreshing to have a comment that isn't highly caustic and often just as ignorant. Sorry I couldn't provide a link. Peace.
@@bozzskaggs112 thanks for getting back to me. I have the same problem of remembering stuff, but problems finding a link or a reference, so no worries! I am a collector and have been for 40 years or more, and have a deep curved Tulwar that fits the profile. Draw cuts are a very specialised technique, and deadly, some grim anecdotes as to what they do.
Thanks for the video Matt! On a somewhat related note, I'm curious about 18th century cavalry swords *before* 1788. I'm aware that predominately, these would've been backswords, but when I search for 18th-century backswords, I can only find people talking about the 1788 and 1796 models. What did cavalry swords look like during the Jacobite Uprisings? The Seven Years' War? The American Revolutionary War? I would imagine the swords changed somewhat in design, but how so?
I'd love to hear more, and thanks again!
a video about changes in saber design (provided one doesn't exist) would definitely be a very interesting thing to watch.
The curve blade protects a far larger area than a straight blade. I was thinking a huge benefit to defense with the curved blade. Catching or deflecting an incoming blow has to be way harder with a straight blade where you have to angle your own sword just right. More angles of attack will be deflected or caught with a curved sword...
In a melee, I have always thought that keeping the sword moving would be vital as if you're executing a dueling-perfect thrust, you must be more vulnerable to others.
And survival is what you are after. Survival with a secondary incapacitation of any enemies that present themselves handily to you.
I always imagine that stabbing risks spending too much commitment to a single enemy when there are many.
I've always had an affinity for curved blades. First as something exotic and unique, but when I really started looking into them and seeing just how useful they can be, I loved them even more. Sure, there are a number of straight blades that I like, but curved is where my heart is.
Couple of things I would assume also helped: the large curvature leaves more room for error, as it were, as so long as you were in range when you swung you're more likely to hit with some of the effective part of the blade against moving, resisting targets. Secondly is that cuts are always more effective against multiple opponents and when things go south, enemy soldiers have an alarming tendency to disregard proper dueling etiquette.
Honestly, at the risk of igniting the old longsword vs katana debates, I can't help but feel that curved swords are just generally more effective battlefield weapons in low armour contexts. If you're thrusting, you're always better off with a spear or bayoneted rifle in a formation and if you're out of formation, you're unlikely to be in a scenario where thrusting is the safest thing to be focused on - if you have enough space to be maximising your range, you're probably better off retreating to regroup.
I agree with you. Thrusting is king in a duel. Cuts are much more utilitarian in a brawl.
i think this often dont make much difference
More room for error but you have to be significantly closer to even hit? Doesn't sound right at all. If you were that close with the straight sword it would hit for sure.
I think the scimitar might be more effective against a charging opponent if you have a shield. You can fight back more quickly from a turtle’d up position. You could even fight back after being knocked to the ground. The straight sword won’t be effective at all if you’re knocked to the ground.
I think one of the reason to choose a cutting sabre is that it's probably easier to fight off multiple enemies, if you stab through someone, you need time to pull out the weapon, with a cut, you just throw another cut. Also, with a cut, you can attack multiple enemies with one swing.
Cuts can defend while offending much easier than thrusts as well.
Actually, the easiest way to solve this problem regarding thrusting is to fight multiple opponents the way Indiana Jones shoots Nazis. Get them all lined up, and stab through 3 at a time.
Plus, simply by making the cutting motions around yourself, you create a "no zone".
I note that British police (Bobbies) used to carry a "police cutlass" that was quite short and very curved, probably because of the effectiveness of short curved swords in, as you put it, "brawling distance".
Also police sabres may have been used with a different purpose than military ones. Some Bavarian and Austrian police units were not allowed to sharpen their sabres in order to avoid severe injuries on the target. A very curved blade may produce more effect for this kind of situation.
Before 1918 the ,Schutzmannsäbel' was Common to regular German policemen, to ,Community policemen ' ( Büttel, Amtsdiener) and First German private security men. A short saber similar to french , Briquet ' infantry saber.
I have a cavalry Scottish "scimitar, that's even more curved and longer than that. o
Ozbourne & Gunby. captain of the Dragoon Guards sword. His name is also on it... amazingly etched across the entire blade
An addition thing I noticed, at the 19 minute mark when you were demonstrating tight defensive cuts, the curvature of the blade is offering a ton of protection, by curving around your body, that a straighter blade wouldn't be offering. Now you probably wouldn't have the proper leverage for normal guards, but I'd still prefer that that a straight blade poking out in to useless midair.
An additional thing I found myself wondering, with the curved blade, in tight "brawling" motions, is it possible to "chamber" your cuts by using your own shoulder, or easier your opposite arm as a lever against the back of the blade? (obviously watch out for your ears if you decide to try it). Watching those motions made me think of some stick fighting tricks, where you use one part of your body, as a lever, to accelerate the stick faster and stronger than what your wrist and shoulder can do on their own in a small motion.
Lindybeige mentioned an account of Yemeni tribesmen in the 1970s fighting with very curved blades as you describe, with the spare hand pushing on the back edge to saw cut when very close.
On the tricks I would mention that you can move the blade really fast by pushing the wrist with the other hand during the cut. Done correctly it almost double the speed of the blow.
I am a martial artist, the defensive capability of the hands and arms is not their ability go guard when retracted, it's their ability to harm when extended. The extended capable range of the offensive weapon is the distance of extension.
If an opponent knows my sword or offense can move to an area faster than they can, that area is guarded.
In martial arts and combat, you don't actually want to be eating attacks to your guard. A guard is like, 1 shot thing and requires dexterity. Wearing a helmet might stop a instant death blow but being smacked in the head by a piece of metal will still knock you down or out.
Having the sword or stick in your hand hit by someone is going to rock your hands and arms, could knock a weapon from the hand.
Guard is not to guard, it's to be more capable of attack. That's the the sword is held in a prepared position, and constant motion with the opponent to always optimize superior offensive capability.
This applies to all combat.
In addendum, a literal guard itself is not actually a guard it's a strategic concession in order to make a counter attack, be that a literal counter or parry, or a last ditch effort to survive another moment to have the chance lol.
Defence is to be offensive and offense is to be defensive.
Ref. FMA twin sticks.
sharpes famous sword may be inappropriate but its certainly not implausible, and if i remember correctly is even seen as odd by the in-story characters. its far less anachronistic than say......a 16th century german greatsword in the hands of a woad painted kilt wearing high medieval scottsman 🤣
A couple of years ago, the HEMA class I attend (Stoccata, Sydney School of Arms) did a term each of bayonet (on rifle) and sword (broadsword/sabre) from an Australian Military Manual (IIRC 1890's Victoria) including a class of bayonet vs sword. 2 interesting things point to advantages in defence using a highly curved sabre.
It was far easier to parry low to the left with a highly curved sabre than a straight sword from horseback (horseriding stance with the left elbow tucked to our side, left hand in front as if holding reins, not allowed to turn our hips or have the blade pass near or below our left hand (cut the horse or reins)). I did get to do a parrying exercise (someone standing in front throwing any cut 1 to 6 and you parry (or not) cut after cut) with both a light broadsword (like a spadroon) and highly curved sabre. If I rushed parrys to my left with the straight sword, a couple of times my point got outside my opponent's blade and the cut landed, that didn't happen with the curved blade. Also in general, the curved blade was more forgiving of slightly sloppy form, the opponent's blade was more likely to deflect than blow through a sloppy parry. The downside was the outside guard was bit different and slightly uncomfortable to hold to cover my head.
On foot against bayonet in engaging guard (right foot forward, right hand forward in first, blade pointing down, the manual's suggested guard to face bayonets), the person with the highly curved sabre found it relativly easy to control or deflect bayonet thrusts. The curve seemed to help get the rifle into the crook between the blade and the hilt. (I didn't get to try it, I tried a shinai and a broadsword, heavier was much better in this situation).
Always fascinating to hear your analysis. One of the points I have read related to the use of radically curved blades, and calvary swords, is that they are more useful for mounted warriors and capable doing things like cutting the reins of horses.
I'd never thought of cutting reins as a military tactic but that makes so much sense, probably the easiest way to make a mount useless. Definitely easier than trying to injure the horse in some way and I imagine that without the rider telling them otherwise the horse is just going to bugger off out of the battle lol
damn, that's really cool.
not just the reins, you can cut ANYTHING and ANYBODY including a poor horse
First CURVED SWORD!!
Some sabers, like polish karabelas, could actually have a widened tip with a sharpened back - specifically designed for the "curved thrust" technics. Which are indeed really hard to see if you are not ready.
Another *much* lesser point, but often when walking or marching in close unison over uneven ground a longer scabbard that protrudes behind you more (even by a few inches) can get tangled, caught and tripped upon. Often when sparing the role of the scabbard and its placement on the body is ignored - its assumed that its just magically vanished in some way, but in reality when fighting with a firm scabbard often causes issues, especially if group fighting devolves into a more chaotic close range melee. If your blade is a weapon of last resort you want it out of the way so it does not hinder you from effectively doing the things that help you survive more often (using firearms) as much as possible.
Thus the off hand holding the long scabbard. Curved scabbards curl around back and are above the knee.
I would be uncomfortable losing range and thrusting ability, but only because I've trained with Jian, arming sword, foil, and back/side swords. They (highly curved swords) would be less useful against even textile-glue armors, but very effective on horseback against unarmored opponents, which was increasingly common once muskets were in common use. I have yet to see a severely curved sword out perform a carolingian sword, tachi, kilij, or even my ox-tail dao against pig parts or tatamis, however it is very clear that the even slight curves don't bind in a body as often, and (at least to me) are easier to cut tatami cleanly as a relative beginner. Even so, I'd be reluctant to use anything more curved than a typical sabre while on foot, where I'd be willing to consider one if mounted.
Interesting video - thank you.
Many British infantry officers at the time were mounted, so a curved blade was practical for slashing downwards.
Another way of looking at the "weapon of last resort" concept is that the spadroon is a a great weapon if you can dictate the range of engagement. However, if you're down to using your spadroon, you by definition have LOST control of the range of engagement, so it's optimised for precisely the scenario it won't be used in.
One defensive advantage of the "scimitar" I can think of is that, by having more authority on the cut, it has more chance to successfully opose an attack from a heavier weapon. I know bayonetts are for thrusting rather that swinging but the rifle is a lot heavier than the sword.
But a heavily curved sabre is not a cutting but a slicing edged weapon!
I found the biggest defensive advantage is you can wrap the blade very close to your body so you can both attack and defend from basically shoving range with nothing more than the motion from your shoulder.
Worth noting that some swords, like certain kilij, have most of the curve at the very tip of the blade to help minimize the issue of the very curved blade diminishing reach for a given amount of steel, while still providing a more slashing angle along the portion one would normally be trying to land a cut with.
The upwards thrust of the scimitar swords is underrated. A often used persian and ottoman technique was the upward thrust followed by cut (with or without false edge) in the chin punching the skull, or upwards through belly and midriff, or upwards in the groin area, causing horrible infectious wounds that took lots of healthcare and capacity of the population after the battle, not to mention. These days the latter is also called bagging, used by drugdealers and other criminals for punishment.
False edge rising cuts to femorals, privates, lower belly around the shield is horrifyingly mortal.
Dark elf Drizzt Do'Urden's dual-wielding weapons of choice, from D&D Forgotten Realms. He has carried a variety of different scimitars, both mundane and magical, over the last 35 years of books, and 200 years of Realms history.
Polish noblemen used curved sabres since late 16th century (Hungarian-Ottoman influence) and developed quite a cult of the sabre
Another advantage of the curved blade is its effectiveness as a chopper against soft (non-metallic) armor such as padded cloth and leather. When wielded on horseback this is important. As the blade makes contact, the hand continues the motion forward, and the curvature of the blade reduces its angle of entry--but still maintains all the weight of the blade behind it. It cleaves as the edge is drawn through the cut. Conversely, a straight blade used in a chopping motion comes to a stop, like an axe in a tree.
Slash beats hack. No stick longer cut ...
I have always loved that "around the bend" thrust. Something about it has always appealed to me, and I've found some success with it in sparring environments. In the context, though, I'd probably go for the cavalry sabre, simply because of the amount of mass they have compared to the other two given options. If I have to stop or redirect a bayonetted rifle, I want more mass.
With a straight blade, I can imagine cavalry charging and thrusting an infantryman, but as you are riding by, you need to to get your sword back, which means the infantryman may have to pivot, which may rip it from your hand. By just slashing with a curved sword you don't face the threat of your sword getting stuck in someone as you charge by them.
Greetings from Argentina. Regarding this issue, our greatest hero of independence (General José de San Martin) was a soldier who previously fought for Spain against the Moors in North Africa. There he was able to appreciate the virtues of the "curved saber". On a trip to London he bought one, which according to analysis, is of Arab origin but with the wood of the handle not original but English. And so it was that a few years later it became the standard weapon of the Argentine cavalry during the war of independence.
Your hero of independence is someone who actively fought in a colonialist army?
@@NeoXtheXbio Yes, he was. He was born in what is now Argentina, traveled to Spain as a teenager, studied military there, fought against the Moors in North Africa, against the English in the Second Coalition War and then against Napoleon in the Peninsular War. It is still debated why he left the Spanish army to join the revolution. Some say that because he was convinced of anti-monarchical ideas, others that he had actually become a British agent against the Spanish crown, and others speak of a mixture of both factors. As you can read in my comment, his personal sword (saber) was bought in London. What is beyond doubt is that he was very good at tactics and strategy.
Regarding effective range - one should take into account where the target happens to be. Especially with those retracted guards, thrusts to the forearms with a spadroon don't seem like a high percentage strategy, while cuts to the arms with a saber definitely are.
For those, the last inch or two of reach is enough for a debilitating, fight ending injury.
One more though - I think hema is still in the process of discovering the finer points of the cut. I mean, hema always uses fairly thick gloves, for obvious reasons. While the people who used those weapons in anger often *chose* not to, despite the weather being really nasty and their complaints, that their hands freeze to the hilts, were recorded. Deep below freezing and totally bare hands - that's the choice they made.
Nobody in his right mind would decide to leave the gloves in the tent if they were not hugely detrimental to their way of fighting.
Possible video idea? How gloves affect the way we handle swords?
Curved swords were used by the steppe cultures for centuries
Slightly curved, yes. Not curved like this.
What some people need to realize is that when it comes to weapons, things that kill better stick around. If there's an oddly-shaped sword it's probably designed to do a specific job against specific people.
I found myself sitting here all day listening to this bold swordsman babbling on about swordplay but I'm not even a fan of cold weaponry. I hope my math teacher could have the same enthusiasm when he talks about calculus theory.
because in school, if you can not understand - because you fool. Not cause your teacher
in youtube, if Viewers can not understand, not enjoy your videos, because you are not good, not cause viewers
I think you demonstrated well in the trench fight argument portion and I'm sure in editing you noticed, the extreme curve of the scimitar style sword actually covers a pretty huge degree of angles relative to the spadroon. And parallel to what you point out i think a lot of it comes from horseback fighting.
I remember a few years ago there was a big debate about what older scimitar style swords were actually used for. As if they were meant as almost a cramped city-centric fighting weapon as opposed to something that you're meant to cleave people apart with like in indiana jones. Almost like applying a sword to a knife fighting situation.
Merry Christmas Matt! It was surprising how well that sword curved around the body while you were maneuvering it. Seems much less likely to cut your buddy if things get tight.
One thing I would add is that while the spadroon has more reach you really need to hit the torso or the head with it to immediately incapacitate your opponent while the wielder of the curved sword only needs to get one good hit on the wrist or arm to disarm the wielder of the spadroon
I remember an episode of Antiques Roadshow (UK) a year or two ago where one of the 'owners' brought in a very curved sword they had inherited, with about the same shape as the one in Matt's video, but later in date (around 1830 I think) and much more ornate. It had been presented to a very senior officer (maybe on retirement, but I forget the details), and was clearly intended as primarily ceremonial rather than a fighting weapon. The 'expert' (one of the regular militaria experts, but I don't recall which one) commented on the extreme curvature, and suggested that it was not very practical. But he had not seen Matt's video!
Excellent presentation. This really does demonstrate some fascinating historical aspects of the different weapon choices!
If I were on horseback, or otherwise in motion, I'd want a curved sword. If I were in a situation where it's chaotic battle where wild swinging would be a benefit, I'd want a curved sword.
Otherwise, give me straight steel.
Your comment about the range the swords were used in I think this also helps it's playing why Indian talwar were used at such close range. You once mentioned the practice Indian warriors would do of putting their knee against a tree (or wall l) & then swinging the blade without touching the tree. That is very close range for a sword to be used in, but if one expects to be pressed in tight formations during combat it makes perfect sense.
That’s also not unreasonably close if expect be fighting in confines such as historical developments. Old streets and buildings are sometimes much more confined than our modern ones so it’s fully possible you need to be able to use what is normally an arms length weapon at shoving distance.
@@Mortablunt exactlly! In Europe I would guess half-swording was used in tight spaces if one had a longer blade.
Also weapons like Messer's we're shorter than swords plus knives & daggers were certainly short range weapons!
Do you think some of them look back and just facepalmed while saying something like "I can't believe I wore that curved sword back in the 90's" come the 1820's?
We were just talking about the curve of sabres in club last night!
ive been stabbed by a long meatknife in my lower arm and it went straight through. saw the muscle fibers bulging out. honestly was just shocked and didnt feel any sort of pain for at least an hour or two. afterwards it was mostly a type of paralyzing numbing pain for about two weeks until it healed itself. cut my thumb or hands many times and hurt a lot. i think it has to do with the fact that a slash cuts much much more upper skin where the nerves are while a thrust is focused. also a slash will make for a lot more bleeding effect compared to a thrust, unless you would attack a artery or other vital point.
At long range,these curved swords are bit of a challenge,but at close range,even as close as grappling range they really are effectieve,in my limited experience handling them.
Another interesting point to consider could be the usage of shields. The heavily curved swords were more often meant to be used alongside shields compared to Spadroon.
Where? I don't think I have ever seen shields paired with curved swords. They are always used in tandem with thrusting stuff like spears or short swords or sometimes axes. But light cutting only weapons are also extremely bad vs blocking opponents, since they do nothing with that ultra wide arc.
@@Leonhart_93 not sure if this is a joke but shamsirs often if not mostly were meant to be used with a shield on the other hand. I mean you clearly didn't even Google this before making weird theories.
Again if this is a joke then awesome you got me. XD
@@viewerchicken730 Not a joke, literally every scenario I know when a curved sword is used, a shield is not. Middle east, cavalry, samurai, all of those use no shield.
Also, a thrusting weapon seems way superior when using a shield. Because the thrusting movement allows you to keep the shield up better without even needing to lower it.
The video was awkward, because it kept wandering to the two swords vs each other. The video needed to keep a focus on each relative to the bayonet. As the video correctly points out, officers didn't fight each other, so one sword vs the other was irrelevant.
Because while the scimitar far outshines the straight blade against the bayonet, match the two swords vs each other, and the straight blade is superior.
Which is kinda what the video ends up awkwardly pointing out, while trying to deal with the fact that the curved blade was historically displacing the straight. So there's just a level of confusion.
Here's some vs bayonet observations:
The match up is effectively 1 sword vs 1 heavy polearm, which is anyone's game, normally slightly favoring the pole. But the bayonet is awkward, and it's safe to presume that the officer with the sword is more skilled the enlisted with the bayonet. So it's probably a toss up, or even tilted towards the sword.
Bayonet is longer than sword, so you have to block and run in, standing at range will get you killed.
Running in isn't good for stabbing. Sure, it's great if you are in a formation and have the longer weapon. But if you are the short weapon, you want to slash. Calvary favors sabers over rapiers for a reason.
Run too far in (easy to do) and generating reasonable force with a swing is much easier with the curve (still hard though).
The 'skilled stabbing at angles' you described (my martial tradition calls them 'wrap shots') are exceedingly important to that specific matchup- when you are too close for the bayonet the rifle can still be used for an very fast, effective block. It's faster than a swing, so you need wrap shots to negate it. So definitely applaud their mention. Can be done with either, but the curve definitely amplifies them(and helps with edge alignment).
Final thought- The straight blade's back weight distribution means it's harder to bully other weapons. Normally pushing an opponents weapon is a really bad idea, but it's actually a good thing to do sword vs bayonet, to force the point offline before actually going in. The forward weight distribution the scimitar has is better at it.
So yeah, over all, the scimitar had a lot of advantages over a straight blade vs the bayonet. So it's not surprising that they would become popular among performance oriented officers 'in the know'.
Normally I like sabers over straight swords of similar size, but the curve on that one is just too much for me. The balance and versatility of the 1821-22 Wilkinson blade light cavalry is perfection.
I think the English of the era of the enlightenment often fell prey to naïve scientific thinking. Rejecting these sorts of curved swords was an example of that. I think your comment near the end about these being very popular in other parts of the world touched on this.
It's very satisfying to hear an argument for straight swords that explains things in mathematical terms of reach and speed and control, and think to yourself "I am a modern scientific thinker! I will embrace this scientific view and gain an advantage over my primitive thinking enemies!" I call this naïve scientific thinking because they don't seem to have done the deeper thinking on the subject like you have. They didn't ask themselves why these blades had so much success.
Lastly, I think this was more of an issue for English institutions who had to argue about these things far away from the field of battle than it was for the battle hardened soldiers and officers -- hence the large number of private purchases made by those who could.
Excellent video!
I think these curved slashing swords became widespread because troops stopped wearing armor
yeah, when early guns start to appear
Love your video's Matt! I would like to see a video on the methods of using a rapier and dagger for parrying. I love swords too, and love your passion for them! Gary
Also the curved blade can slash across multiple people at a time if they are pressing in on you together, allowing you to address multiple threats at a time, while thrusting is a one target at a time method.
I do find that the heavily curved sabers are better at fighting up close. They hug the body & allow one to cut even if your opponent is right on top of you. Whereas my rapier really requires more room for me to get the point online.
I can’t help but notice a 4th as you moved it, the curved blade tends to cover your body as you use it. In a melee not a duel, it seems it might block things you didn’t see
How often did they have a false edge? Seems like (akin to your point about the point) they could deliver a nasty "Surprise!" draw cut, especially to the sword hand/forearm.
its easier to block with a curved blade, it projects foward on the "belly"' more. Also ofc the thrust can go around shields you can use it as a scythe point.
The defensive line they project is way better. A disadvantage is that the attack takes a bit of a longer tempo to reach it´s target.
Additionally, once you project a cutting line with a very curved blade, you are to commit or defend, but it's harder to feint and attack other line, because the blade will want to turn and lose you a tempo or take longer to reach.
This better defence/slower attack is the main reason for the long phrases you typically see on sabre fencing.
We mainly prefer to parry with Shamshir...allows us to counter faster and stay in motion :)
As a novice knife maker I'll be attempting to make a scimitar from a hay knife... westernizing it with an elk crown handle.
My experience with wooden and plastic pirate swords as a child taught me that the Entertech Uzi water gun usually won the fight.
Unless somebody’s mom yelled at us to go home.
Those warriors from Hammerfell have curved swords....CURVED SWORDS!!
A video about using a cavalry sabre as an infantry officer, and how they’d have to adapt their techniques to fit the heavier weapon would be really interesting!
Doesn't Sharpe wield a heavy cavalry sabre? But I believe it was straight...
if you are passing an opponent on foot while riding your horse at high speeds I'd rather cut them then risking my weapon get stuck during a thrust in an opponent and braking it in the process. Or even worse, after getting stuck dragging me off of my horse (just reminiscing my experiences during the previous big sales at Tesco).
These might have less of an effect given how light these swords are, but still probably noticeable.
I've heard that the curve helps with a chopping motion (rather than just slashing) Since the tangent of an arc always meets it at a single point, thus concentrating the force. Same idea with axe heads and the khopesh.
Biomechanically, a chop can apply more force than a thrust, since the momentum of a downward swing is more than the joints in your arm can withstand in a thrust.
And lastly, most of the weight of the curved blade is below the projection of your arm and wrist (as if with a straight sword), and this supposedly helps with edge alignment given that gravity is pulling the blade in a helpful direction.
Did any trench raiders during WW1 use curved swords? I have seen plenty of photos of daggers, revolvers, clubs and improvised clubs but never a curved sword.
He may be a bit of a controversial figure but Nidar Singh Nihang's TH-cam channel, Sanatan Shastarvidiya, has some amazing examples of Sikh and Indian fencing forms. He has some amazing tulwar videos and many many others. Apparently they practice at about 1/2 to 1/4 speed but with sharpened swords. It would also be super cool to see a video with you too in it. =)
You say the curved blade is better for in-experienced/under-trained troops but your skills are the only reason you still have both eyes after messing with it after 20 minutes haha!
An important reason why officers prefer this type of sword may be the ease of carrying. When the sword is hung on the waist, it will stand farther from the feet and vertically to the ground in a more natural way, thus providing greater ease of movement compared to a straight sword. It will also be pretty quick to unsheath these swords. For example, if a warrior who use a katana and a warrior who knows how to use this sword clashes, the katana warrior would be lost his arm before he could draw his sword.
im obsessing over that peasant axe from your obscure axe video: i suppose everything that you say here with regards to why you might want a big old curve in your sword, would also hold for why you might want a big old curve in your axe?
there are nearly no advantages of super curved banana swords. They do nothing good and will be outclassed by both the straight and slightly curved sabres. I can only think of a single advantage and it's that it can reach around small shields like bucklers. But is useless against large shields or barricades
And they waste way more steel. and requires the user to get way way closer to do a good cut
I assume the curved sword is designed for a physically weaker swordsman for parrying stronger opponents, making contact on the curved point parrying the opponent's sword stepping foward sliding the blade towards the opponent's body. I am also guessing the back of the curved sword is blunt which can be reinforced with the second hand or the shoulder. I don't think it is an inferior sword, a good sword is designed with both our strengths and weaknesses in mind.
“His commanding officer, who died and gave him his sword.”
Umm, something about that sentence doesn’t quite sit right.
Imagine being on a horse, the scimitar transfers the horse momentum better to the cut, as more area of the blade is going to run over the same part of the enemy, so it might chop off parts.
Another advantage of the scimitar is when both straight and curved blades are thrusted at each other, the scimitar might parry the straight blade because the scimitar will touch a straight blade in 2 points, like a U causing an _ to get stuck.
Wow. What a great illustration of how the curved blade works at close range!
If there is record of these breaking in battle, I think that is also fair circumstantial evidence that they were being used not just to cut, but to cleave, then getting stuck in heavier bone (or possibly shields) and probably breaking upon attempted removed from the opponent.
I like the only Slightly curved sabers the best. It has a slight curve but its still excellent for thrusting. That's my favorite kind of sword.
Like a Japanese katana. I would hate to get hit with one of those.
@@d.nakamura9579 I was thinking more of the longer bladed one handed cavalry sabers in the west. But I guess those are cool too.
In a one on ene duel with room to maneuver - spadroon
In a battle in tight spaces where cuts keep your weapon moving against many opponents from different sides - this curvy boi
Curved swords?! What’s next?! DOGS PLAYING POKER?!
If I wanted to buy one of those curved sabers what site would I use. I’ve been looking but no luck
As thrust/counterpointe fencer I do NOT want the point facing back at me lol
See those warriors from Hammerfell? They have curved swords. Curved. Swords.
I like my swords like my women.
Thanks for the thought-provoking video. I think that your conclusion was spot-on. However, you failed to mention one of the greatest disadvantages of sword with extremely curved blades: They are much harder to display in your collection!!
BS, curved swords are also used for thrusting, and will make a wider wound than a straight sword-
You hear about those warriors from Skyrim? They use straight swords. Straight swords!
" The point beats the edge " a common cry throughout the TV series of Sharpe 🤣🤣🤣
I would always have favoured the straight blade, but that is because I only faced one opponent at a time. I now realise that the curved sabre is the favoured weapon in a melee. 200 years ago, I would have been poncing about with a straight blade, whilst getting cut to pieces with a curved sabre! Thank you for another fascinating video.
I tend to fight with a sense of urgency and when I did fencing or practiced back in the day found that curved blades often won out in one on one fights because you could leverage a closer defense with them. and land hits more easily. Then I got into kendo and found out that Katana often offered the best of both worlds allowing for quick one one one and swapping into tight brawling while still being fast and strong. I then realized that fencing blades could always beat out katana in a one on one and I realized every tool has it's purpose.
There was a wide, short, very triangular sword popular in Northern Italy and Southern France called the Cincineda (sic), or something like that. I have seen Doug Marcaida use these blades on ballistic dummies, but he is more of an oriental martial artist. Could you break down how these were used in Europe?