Francesca Stavrakopoulou, Tom Holland: Speaking freely about religion (World Humanist Congress)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ค. 2015
- In this session from the 2014 IHEU World Humanist Congress, hosted by the British Humanist Association, two TV historians discuss the difficulties faced when non-religious critics and writers try to express views about religions which the faithful do not want to hear. The discussion is chaired by Guardian journalist Zoe Williams.
Religion has often had a privileged and protected place in inquiry and debate. In Europe, Christian authorities, tried to prevent speculation about the earth’s revolving round the sun and about the age of fossils. Although direct confrontation with science is now marginal (if sadly not rare), we still find powerful inhibitions against turning the scientific method on religion itself, investigating religion as a human creation, and especially about probing the obscure origins and dubious histories of particular religions. Little of what is today central to Christianity emerged before the third century, and the early history of Islam is wreathed in obscurity, the nearest thing to certainty being that the ‘official’ story is far from the truth. Even more obscure are the origins of older religions like Judaism.
Both our speakers have confronted these taboos in television series and in print - and both have had to face the wrath of orthodox believers and the disquiet of those who would rather avoid such provocation. They will refer to their academic work and the reaction to their attempts to popularise their ‘heretical’ scholarship and will discuss their experience and the lessons they draw from it with Zoe Williams, the columnist, journalist and author.
Came looking for Spiderman, stayed for Prof Francesca.
I came in here expecting to see Spiderman discuss religion :(
Me, too... But I was not disappointed with the result..
@Gary Fletcher nope
Same😂😂
You're a legend in your own mind😂
Got Wonder Woman instead!
I love hearing Professor Stavrakopoulou and Tom Holland speaking. Their rigorous academic approach is a joy to experience.
I love Professor Stavrakopoulou, but I did not know she was a lib. In 33:00, she said: Islam has been caricatured unfairly as intolerant religion. Well, if you read the Quran and the Hadith, would you still say that?
Keyboard Dancers - surprising to hear that Muslims are, in fact, Ignostics ... What was Mùhâmmâd banging on about, then?! Something unknowable? Well, he was obviously full of crap, then ...
nishuee I think she made a mistake on saying Islam and not Muslims. Historically in many places Muslims have lived peacefully for centuries with neighbours of other religions and the media does rely on archetypes and present 'muslims' too often as intrinsically dangerous. You can't avoid the fact she thinks Islam (as opposed to Muslims) is bullshit superstition like all other religions. She is saying we should be careful to not conflate bad ideas and bad people. ...Yes there is some intersection but it's simply wrong to portray whole groups according to the worst of their number.
Midnight Indy It seems to me you don't know what historical documents and writings she is thinking of when she made that statement. She is absolutely correct when she says the Abrahamic religions consider god to be male as he was imagined by males in male dominated societies. They wrote the story that god 'made man in his own image'... and women secondarily. Do you know of any example in those religions of god referred to in the feminine?
Kieren Moore interesting
Hearing these two speak...raised my IQ by one standard deviation
Tom Holland is simply brilliant to listen to. Thanks for the upload!
This was great, I just wish that Francesca had a microphone.
Not a good acoustic space.
Lapel microphones would have been a good idea.
The audio quality was terrible. 👎
We need more people like this in our dogmatic world..free thought & inquiry are everything!
Isn’t atheism dogmatic in the same way? I can see if you wanna argue for agnosticism but atheism relies on assuming certain truths no?
Like many people out there, I don't think you even know what atheism is, which results in a blatant straw man..which is a shame. There's no such thing as atheist dogma.@@TheSavageGent
@@TheSavageGent lack of belief in santa claus is not assuming certain truths. If you have any evidence proving the existence of a godly diety you will change the world
@@FactStorm Assuming are we lol
@@FactStorm Atheism is the belief that there is no God/gods, or is that wrong?
Dr Francesca is intelligent and educated. l like people that are intelligent and educated! Men or women, we are to be at least a bit cultivated!
Francesca and Alice Roberts... %)
Fantastic conversation. Really great stuff.
Excellent to listen to . Many good thoughts to think on . Thanks to you for putting this up
When I was a Christian I thought Francesca was a "threat" now I see she is just honest.
No, she is not really honest. Tom is honest though. Francesca is a progressive bullshiter.
This woman is totally wrong God is the only real truth be careful what you choose time is short
@@bobcat7664 God is the assertion of primitive Humans lacking in knowledge. You hold onto that assertion because it gives you comfort during your existence.
bob cat Which one?
@Notting Hill Carnival Photos :)). Argument from authority...priceless. I read people who have more education than hers in the field and actually a bigger activity in the scholarship and a lot less of an ideological approach. You should try that.
I’m new to these people. I’m glad to see rational discussion. Here in the states i think rational thinking is lacking, and many people are advancing, finally.
here in the UK it's illegal to think irrationally.
@@HarryNicNicholas Unless you are a Tory politician, then it is obligatory.
Francesca Stavrakopoulou and Tom Holland are a class act.
I'm wondering if some of the males commenting here have ever seen a real woman. Yes Francesca is hot, but there's a world full of beautiful women out there, & the purpose of this video is purely intellectual & academic. Show some respect for a fellow human being who is educated & an expert in her field.
+David Hore I agree. Whenever I see comments like that, I think of "Sid the Sexist" from "Viz".
+David Hore
I dont see why we cant combine the two as long as we are
respectful. The first time I saw her was in a series on the bible on the TV and
I noticed her before I heard what she said. It is perfectly normal and nothing
to get hung up about. My girlfriend was the same about Richard Dawkins when she
met him in a book signing; she read all his books first though.
She is FS is exactly what modern atheism needs, a beautiful persona with substance and intelligence.
Bollocks.
*****
I am not a cretin, I would not drool over her if I met her. At the same time I am honest about the way biology works. One can appreciate both, you say its inherently disrespectful, this is wrong it is inherently a natural biological response.
We are more than just our biology.
amazing conversation
It's summer here in NZ on the afternoon of New Year's Eve 2022. So enjoy listening to these two... such smart, sane, warm human beings. They just seem such nice people, that I'm thinking how nice it would be to take them along to a barbie with friends and all just sit around and have intelligent conversation over a G&T or two. Nothing like sitting in the sun on a hot summer evening and enjoying smart conversation.
Bible has incredible scientific accuracy like round Earth and Quarantine and jet streams and far more.
@@BNelso-lf7dbno. It has no answers. Your god is satanic
Francesca you have the right to exist !
These people should speak on mainstream media more often.
why not? What's wrong with academic rigour and truth?
They should also speak ON MICROPHONES more often. What's up with the sound?
+Largesse1000 There we go, typical christian, oppressing the right of others to speak. And you wonder why we want your religion eliminated
+David O'Brien See Dee Kohelath's post just a bit above this. He is a raving sociopath, and I do not say that lightly. Rants about the coming of christ and the rapture, yet then refutes belief in it, then loses it and throws enormous tantrums.
Says he has multiple degrees, including law, yet cannot construct a cohesive rebuttal.
Quite deranged, either that or the most persistent and consistent troll I have ever seen...
Mainstream media doesn't like political incorrectness..they can't have people criticizing faith
Very interesting dialogue. Thanks to everyone. 👍
This was wonderful. I really appreciate hearing from both of the panel members.
Religion, Culture, tradition often intertwined but not synonymous.
I think of religion as "religare," binding to doctrine, organization, & uncritical restriction.
One can devise one's own personal "spirituality" and religious practices while being polite & accepting of others. "If it's true gold, you need not fear the furnace."
Yes Indeed!!! Religion means exactly that, To Bind, Restrict, Set Back, Suppress, etc. I can't stand any Religion, but I will not judge anyone or Kill anyone for what they BLINDLY Choose to BE-LIE-VE!
They should have adjusted the microphones before they started.
Can anyone direct me to the video of Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou talking about serpent worship? It mentions the Avebury stone monument in England. I watched it once and I am now having difficulty finding it. Thanks
Fascinating!
The major question of Why We Are Here remains essentially unanswered and unsolved and when we are speaking in addressing all religious belief, the fact exists that humans have multiple theories: ancient and contemporary religious literature attempts to address why humans exist but huge and conflicting diversities exist among religions. Who are we really and what sort of future we face remains the key question.
The question has been answered by science.
We are here by evolution.
How can you do something like this and not make sure the audio is good? Unbelievable.
Thank you 😊
37:22 wonderful, an enlightend man, just freely speaking from his heart, deeply feeling the truth. Oh praise, praise logos!
Whoever says anything about Islam is always going to be threatened, unless you say, like a robot, that which they want you to say.
Well all religions are kind of like that at some point, or they are simply manufactured and used for nefarious purposes for which a "true god" serves as justification. Thankfully, that particular expression of Christianity has been largely defanged; unfortunately, that side of Islam is still feeling its oats. Sigh...
@@AAwildeone yes, it's the fastest growing religion cos it works like facism.
@@HarryNicNicholas And you'd be compelled, I hope, to say the same about xtianity before it was defanged and lost temporal political power bc it was aligned with emerging States. The West put religion in its place for exactly the same reasons any other State should do it. There is no such thing as a religious democracy ANYWHERE at ANYTIME...tell your friends. Cheers!
People talk about islam for centuries dont lie to yourself
@@alchemist7525 but say it on a book, newspaper, or tv and your life is in danger. Where have you been living? Under the ground?
Interesting, one of my ancestors was one of the early humanists, and he suffered the ire of the Inquisition for it. Also interesting to hear that what’s happening in academia in the UK is the polar opposite of that in the US.
wow! that's really cool (about your ancestor). Also, I was surprised to hear that the American evangelist movement is spreading to the UK
As we are talking about ancestors, mine developed the flushing toilet :D
So remember that the next time you have a poo!
Why don't these events happen in Toronto!!!
What does Francesca say at around 25:10 to 25:17? Is it absence of 'secourism'?
“Secularism”
She thinks that a low-class east-end accent is ‘hip’.
R
Having them standing is awkward, especially for the moderator. They could've at least put those podiums in front.
Thats your issue. Being open to the audience and so everyone can see and hear better is the best way. A podium would be unnecessary.
Is it just me or Zoe Williams (guardian) really squirming when there's any discussion on criticizing islam or printing Muhammad cartoons?
would love to watch this video with improved audio quality.
The reason there are so many beliefs is because there are so many people therefore so many opinions…kind of easy to see why they are all different….just humans being humans…good video!
37:20 "Some of these people really believe this shit." - Tom Holland
The central insight that seems to be eluding a lot of people...
Yes they do, like many of my friends and family, all British Christians. Clearly that reality has been missed by TH and others. Atheist myself but yeah, beliefs are 'real'
Hei I believe in Shit, I start my day with a shit ritual. In fact almost all of the 7.5 Billion ppl do. Hei don't u think there should be a "CULT of SHIT" or "SHIT RELIGION"?
love listening to these sorts of speechs. Theyre slowly but surely weeding out the supernatural in an interesting and logical way. And Francesca makes it very easy to watch indeed. Purely from an intellectual stance of course.
such an elegant woman, such class
The setting is awkward. Either keep them sitting when they talk, or at least bring the podium for them to speak from behind. It just feels awkward this way. I don't why this grown up woman in the middle did not think of this thing!
And, the audio sucks!
The guy who is one of the speakers gives an excellent explanation as to why liberals and progressives tend to not want to criticise Islam, which conservatives regard as “double standards”.
Essentially, although liberals and progressives agree with the criticism from conservatives about Islam* concerning its reactionary views, we believe it is more important to not criticise Islam and Muslims *in the West* for the following reasons:
1. If your goal is to prevent terrorist attacks and to prevent radicalisation, research has shown time and time again that the constant demonisation of a minority for their cultural or religious practices doesn’t shame them into abandoning them. What it does is drives those minorities further together and become more insular, leading to more opportunities for radicalisation since there is now a perception of being “under attack” by the dominant culture. What we say instead is that, let’s not criticise them because it is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the goal of eradicating terrorism and instead rely on other research which shows that minorities tend to assimilate on their own accord over time due to environmental and dominant cultural pressures. There is even evidence of that occurring in the West now.
2. Although it may feel good to get what you think about Islam “off your chest”, getting something off your chest is not worth an innocent, sweet Muslim lady walking down the street and having her hijab ripped off, attacked and humiliated is NOT worth it. And we know from research on role models in society that if the elites start demonising a certain minority, the majority population will begin more brazenly attacking them, usually leading to disasters such as Hitler and the Holocaust etc.
What we’re saying to right wingers is that there’s a BETTER way of achieving the aims we want. It’s the way you to tend to go about it that makes the problem even worse, not better.
There.
* although we believe these to be disingenuous because conservatives generally do not care about such issues such as gay rights, feminism, separation of church and state and we see this more as an attempt by conservatives to say “haha look at you not standing up for your principles when Islam or Muslims don’t even believe in it”, which is a separate point anyway)
You can critisize without demonizing people unless asking in itself is already an attack which ends up with leaving the whole cultural and religious clash and friction inside the closet. And trust me like a couple when problems are not discuss it only cames with vengeance and 10 times more bigger in the future.
@@setiem13 most non-muslims come to such discussions with misconceptions and untruths, that they consider to be "the truth about islam". And like with judaism, people coming at this from post-christianity simply fail to understand that neither islam nor judaism are about "belief".
Very interesting to listen to, but the audio isn't good. There should have been a microphone.
Unfortunately the sound captation is so bad I cannot know what is being said
goddess
I would become an Atheist for Francesca. Oh wait, i already am. Damn.
Fascinating explanation by Tom about the differences in approach between Western and Islamic traditions and his acknowledgement of his Western bias via the Western intellectual tradition of free enquiry. I have read his book on Islamic origins and he does not mention this, but he has obviously thought about it a lot since the book was published.
Shame about the audio but thanks for sharing
"In the Shadow of the Sword" is a great book!!!
As someone who was spent their whole university time as a christian I am appalled to hear that as suggested at the end of this video that the Christians has been responsible for silencing peoples voices. Everyone should be able to say what they want to say without fear. Peace and love.
ha ha, you think religion, and the christian mythology is about peace and love? what planet is that true on? cos it's not true on this one. all religions have been responsible for all manner of atrocities. "Everyone should be able to say what they want to say without fear" if they thought they could get away with it we'd still be under the inquisition.
Awesome content but please sort sound for future wonderfulness thank you
Wish you had a mic on her for better audio clarity.
Francesca is just so wonderful, I have a HUUUGE crush on her.
I have a crush on her.
Ahmed wants to drive a car into her.
How typical…
@@RalphEllis Wow, it's quite astonishing that how deeply racist you are, You have found the spelling mistake after 03 years, I really appreciate your efforts. My best wishes are with you, I hope you can eventually do something better than spreading haterd. Meanwhile, I shall continue to do something a bit more meaningful, like taking care of COVID patients.
Greek Goddess of knowlage!
She's an idiot.
@@JohnGeometresMaximos no, she isn't and she isn't Greek either - she's English.
@@JohnGeometresMaximos The sensible people here look forward to you offering something of value that challenges her comments as we are sure you can do better than throwing an unsubstantiated and insulting ad feminam. I meant to say, if you were a *real* man, you might try.
@@VaughanMcCue
Watch the video idiot.
46:26 right on!!
...........Dr. Francesca is one of my favourite female Scholars, as wise as beautiful.... I am so happy that we have such intelligent and free thinking people, in this world, like both speakers .....
Excellent, Francesca is a fantastic speaker and knows her stuff. Thumbs up
Deceived and unstable !
I heard her saying that persons in Old Testament are NOT real, not prove for their existence! Even Jesus is not sure He existed (may be she educated a little more at least about Jesus ???) !!! 😂😂😂
"Profesor" and "historian"??? 🙏😁
May God open her eyes SOME DAY
To see properly !!! Otherwise her selfish and hardened heart who do not obey the truth will face God's wrath, tribulation and anguish for spreading false "knowledge" !!!
How people deceive themselves ???
It is only prove how people gather wrath of God against themselves !
I came here for a different Tom Holland 😩
Watching this in 2024 is interesting!
Brilliant and beautiful
I love her intellect and understanding of the truth
She has neither.
@@JohnGeometresMaximos let me guess you're a Christian lol.
the sheep divided the sheep they created their own sad world for themselves
Perhaps you could put your numerous unintelligible comments through Google Translate before you post them so we know what they are talking about. We can't do it ourselves as we don't know what language they were written in.
One will not comment on the beauty of ms Stavrakopoulou for that would be rude BUT I would like to state that I could listen to both of these intelligent people all day,and would state that intelligence is the beautiful thing in this,I have wasted my time as an electrician..I should have dedicated my studies elsewhere, there is so much more in the universe to learn than the rubbish my religious family and Grammer school subjected me too ( in their own distorted way cos' that was all bollocks).
+virgil Allen The real world needs electricians Virgil. You bring light and heat to make a house a home. It is an honourable profession, enjoy that.
Many are not able to do what they would yearn to
Its very interesting but Fransesca needs a mic
It’s funny how people are talking about Tom’s speaking content, and Francesca’s appearance.
Well, it’s not funny at all.
hahahahahaha
It's the norm in a patriarchal society.
@@forogafold So, no women think she's attractive?
@@TheRobdarling Yes, she is attractive but what does it have to do with the material being presented?
Not the Tom Holland I was looking for
luuuul
In cultural wars, your opponents will choose any mode of attack they feel will be effective. Facts and reasonableness are not a consideration. You don't need any 'authority' to advance an argument - the test is the strenght of the argument itself. In this context 'authority' is a negative thing: it means being given a free pass to advance weak arguments with insufficient scrutiny because of who you are.
+Cotictimmy Very much evident in the ad hominem attacks and PRATTs from the religious
If religions are constantly evolving things then wouldn't that undermine the concept of a belief as beliefs deals more in absolutes.So whats the point in religion if it hasn't firmly established its position.
No religion that can order its members to kill dissenters deserves respect. Tom Holland does. End of story.
th-cam.com/video/dakP5OZa0F0/w-d-xo.html
Agreed, along with any religion that persecutes homosexuals and leads with paedophile priests.
Tom Holland to get the quote of the existence of the universe award for "They believe this shit "!
th-cam.com/video/dakP5OZa0F0/w-d-xo.html
Am I the only one who sees that Dr. Stavrakapoulou is as absolutely gorgeous as academically brilliant?❤
I always think she looks quite like Jame's Bond's love interest in For Your Eyes Only... (played by Carole Bouquet).
Google came up blank looking for fish mortuary behaviour. I could find info on elephants and dolphins. I have never seen anything like this in my years caring for tropical fish. They eat the dead, often before they have even fully died.
I loved it when Francesca Stavrakopoulou said that human rights should always trump religious rights, and that it should be in the constitution.
Human rights? What if your rights and my right conflict?
Give an example.
@@soupbonep My right to offend and your right not to be offended.
@@joverstreet24 Give me a concrete example. Name one religious right that is more important than a human right.
@@soupbonep First define what a human “right” is as an atheist. A religious right in my definition is the intrinsic rights that were given to me by God, that no manmade law can take away. My human rights are one in the same with those rights.
1:19:50 Lovesick stalkers are worse than religious extremists? Didn´t see that one coming...
It's rooted in ancient Iranian thinking. The liner flow of time and prophetic,attitude towards nature as something to be exploited quite recklessly etc
I'm a fan of Francesca and listen to a great deal of her knowledge in a few different podcasts, I am also a Spiderman fan, so yes I thought for sure it was that Tom Holland that played Spiderman 😅😅 I still listened though...❤
Shame that so many Muslims and Chtistians actually believe 'holy books' are actually 'true ' with the Gods, Angel's, divine revelation et all.
a greater shame that atheists believe in the validity of their ideas which is so devoid of imagination and insight, still so new and untested in terms of providing a strong foundation to a civilisation or society.
@@melroycorrea7720 Yes it’s a shame that evidence is needed to support the existence of supernatural beings.
@@kevbee8325 Truly, its a shame when atheists claim that God is a thing in the world, on whom you can perform controlled experiments to collect evidence.
@@melroycorrea7720 But you can judge his supposed work going by the order of events in Genesis (assuming that it’s the Abrahamic god and not one of the other few hundred apparently in or have been in existence) which don’t add up, light and days before the Sun etc in a book that some people say are about morals but is pro slavery.
@@kevbee8325 Just because you can make a caricature of the Holy Writings doesn't mean that you understand it at all. It squares up with my earlier assertion: just because atheism is good at poking fun and destroying values, doesn't mean it has the power to build and create anything.
I respect the fact that Francesca has not only amassed significant qualifications, but also forged the path she has, despite the misogyny that remains rife, particularly in areas of religion. The church dogma has women as nothing more than chattels, and to me, that is abhorrent.
So, Pagans invented their own backstory!
Wow.
Yes, we humans are more alike than different. And working stories is a big part of how we move forward.
Love Tom Holland. He has an unquenchable passion for knowledge. The other speaker has a lovely smile.
Unirony
Absolutely we need more people like Francesca. Magical thinking needs to go now, religions are very often hateful organisations.
Big thanks to the Humanist UK and this amazing talk from the brilliant Francesca.
Thumps UP!!
Definition of a cult: a group of people that believe too much on what they agree.
Everybody should believe what they want to believe as long as they don't bother me.
+Kev Bee It should be taught, as a myth, along side stories of the Egyptian and Norse god. Best our kids know about it than it be a secret that may seem enticing later.
and to keep their religion out of government... in god we trust off my money ... and a woman's right to choose ... keep religion in ti's place ... in church on sunday
That's stupid.
Jesus Christ is Lord and sovereign and His teaching is not to be taken from any aspect of our lives, private or public. Gays don't bother you in their own bed but when they demand to be seen in commercials and on the street and their ways taught in school where does the line stop? Or when the Muslims get their own quarter of the school yard and turn your child into a follower of Allah whay then? Christ is the only way, all other paths lead to destruction.
StoneFree1962 I did, God can't be a myth. th-cam.com/video/PdsJs0UIm7s/w-d-xo.html
But who taught both religions about persecution? Who does persecution better than anyone? Who invented it, and perfected it???
+Jonathon Jubb Shhhhh, they are hoping no one will notice the genocide as a calling card, and persecution by the minute.
Aggression occurs in every living thing, but looking at Christian torture methods through the ages, I would say that Christians first perfected it, and Muslims have aspired to match it ever since.
audio isn't balanced...where's the mic for main speaker?
Brilliant woman. It's about time we subjected religious doctrine to peer review.
It's one thing to put them in the perspective of being an evolving folk tradition of paleolithic attempts to understand nature. It's even appropriate to acknowledge religion as one of the foundations of civilization and culture...
but in the present day any of these that were presented in the form they took in there ancient iterations, they would be considered laughable by the same cultures that take their laboriously edited and adapted forms as "immutable truth" within the modern cultural context.
"It's about time we subjected religious doctrine to peer review." - if you were actually familiar with the academic field, you would know that this has been happening for decades. In the academia, this is how they do things. I know...shocker.
positively painful to hear people expostulating on the issues in Israel without thoroughly understanding the people, history, geography of the regions they're discussing. Moslems hold Mecca and Medina holy to them, not so much Israel. They don't need our little slip of land as much as the Jewish people need it. They have so many other places they can be! I don't mind if they live with us in peace but they continue to contest our right to be in a sliver of land as large as New Jersey!
In the description....it should be noted that the pressure for the Pope to hold to the geocentric view came from humanist philosophers of the Ptolemaic and Aristotlian world view.
The Pope had been advised by some Theologians that Galileo's heliocentric view posed no threat to orthodox Theology. But the Pope was more persuaded by the humanist. Right there is a lesson.
Also, Galileo did not have proof for his model. It was that simple. In view of the science of his days, Galileo was simply wrong.
You can now spell Religion another way: GULLIBLIGION!!! For the Religious!!!
I loved the video, both Francesca and Tom are extremely knowledgeable and professional. She never offended Christianity, she is simply giving the facts, if you 're offended by facts it is your problem. She is being objective, and that's what we need. Also all the comments about her personality are so inappropriate. In many environments it is still difficult to be a woman, that's a fact. Just look at all the disgusting comments here, sexual harassment is still a big problem, and we need more ppl to admit to it and talk about it. If it's not a problem for you personally, if doesn't mean it's not a problem for other ppl. Be respectful.
Love Tom Holland.
I wonder if Francesca sees a similarity of "animal sacrifice by some religions", and scientific usage of animals in ways that cause pain.
i think even science would stop using animals if there was a better, i mean, more effective way to do tests, they may become cynical, or hardened, but i don't think they do it for fun. we all wash, no one cares about bacteria.
Greek and Cypriot women...Damn! Gorgeous
I am a Atheist but oh my GOD Francesca is HOT!
Just a funny use of the word GOD...
BabuBangaram That's your opinion, Gods' existance is fact.
D White
Really:
th-cam.com/video/ew_cNONhhKI/w-d-xo.html
Spoilt by sound issues...
I'm off to listen to Francesca other vids
She says 'I think we just want community' and that's the feeling we have. Not the need for human spiritual guidance. Blah blah blah. She knows more than anybody and has all the answers.
I wonder if she realises (or would ever want to)that's she's the natural successor to Christopher Hitchens.
Actually, no. Douglas Murray is.
spot on
Nonsense
markmywords312 I have heard her say she does consider Jesus existed as a real person... I'd love to see her discuss/debate this with Richard Carrier... It would be weird but cool to have two Atheist historians debating for and against the historicity of Jesus :-)
+Daniel Schaeffer Hitchins has no natural successor. There is no one with his quickness of wit, prodigious memory, and Oh so smooth style. He was always gracious, even when slicing the opposition into very small pieces.
Douglas Murray is weak in comparison
Advice to the wise: don't go on a show with Tom Holland without something clear and interesting to say. Hard to look smart when the other guy offers depth, context, perspective and original thinking in short sentences with grace and some dose of humour.
and it is obvious that he doesn't have a chip on shoulder the entire time like she does.
42:00 to 45:00 is pretty bizarre. It's one thing to give religious folks advice, but kind of weird to say they're all pretty much the same and the answer is to invent more.
I love the circumcision part! I'm so tired of the way people react to simply saying "you probably shouldn't cut a baby's penis". Just leave them alone unless they need it for a medical reason
Not every religion functions like Christianity. A misconception of many post-christians is that they do. There already is a substantial move away from circumcision in judaism, but judaism is not like christianity, because this is not a matter of "believing in" religious dogma, it is also the enactment of embodying jewish nationhood. There's an extra layer involved that a lot of post-christians don't get. And that's why such exhortations are useless.
It always amazes me when people imply the moral teachings of Christianity when the bible is basically a manual for human rights violations.
Nope. It's not. You have to look at the history of this religion throughout the centuries to see what it brings. You are reading the book as a 21st century modern man. That is not how people looked at it in the past. There is a reason human rights came from the West and not from anywhere else. Holland's new book Dominion makes a good case for exactly this. Go read it.
@@Alnivol666 Three hundred years ago 10s of thousands of innocent woman in Europe were murdered for being witches because of exodus 22:18. The US slave trade was substantiated by Exodus 21. Gay people have been persecuted because of Leviticus 20. Alan Turing, the man that helped save England form the Nazis, was chemically castrate for being gay by the Christians. Holland is wrong. In a debate with Grayling he did not make one demonstrable point about his hypothesis. Look at his video, th-cam.com/video/_gG_adjdx9w/w-d-xo.html the guy is mentally ill. The bible is vile garbage that should be thrown in the bin next to the Quran.
@@movieklump I really do not care about opinions ventured by historically illiterate anti-theists. You would have been one of those guys doing the burning. And quite happy about it. Your anachronistic analysis is one of the most intelectually dishonest if not outright idiotic takes one could have about history periods they have made no effort of understanding. I know all of your tropes. You and your ilk repeat them time and time again like a broken record. You learned them by heart as the good little idiots that you are. You have these very simplistic explanations for very complex historical events that span centuries because your brains need simple explanations. Makes everything easier, including your irrational hate.
@@Alnivol666 Socrates said 'When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers.' It is really sad to see when someone as intellectually bankrupt as you tries to form an argument only to find it disintegrate int the blathering of a dull witted five years old in tears. Philosophically an argument ad hominem typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character of the opponent.
@@movieklump You have made no argument. You gave your opinion on something you don't really understand. An opinion is not based on logic or reason. It is based on emotion. You don't understand the time period you talk about. You don't really understand much of anything. But you do have opinions that stem from ignorance and you are quite proud of them. Your approach historical analysis is called presentism. Look it up. You might learn something. I repeat...you would have been the one setting the flames and quite happy about it. Because you don't really care to analyze what happened. You are here to judge. My saying that your views are simplistic is not an ad hominem. It is what your views actually are. Have a book for you. Again...if you read it, you might learn something. www.amazon.com/New-Atheism-Myth-History-Anti-Religion/dp/3319894552.
You work with tropes that you accept without any sort of skepticism. You are as much as a believer as any Christian. I say that as an atheist. When I see you guys popping up with your silly anti-theist talking points, I see that religious thinking is deeply embedded in the human brain. Nothing I can say to you can change the way you look at things because you already think you know everything. You don't. At this moment in time you are just repeating things you picked up somewhere without much thought about it. I can't reason you out of something that you haven't reasoned yourself in. Sorry.