As a heritage railway volunteer, it is shocking how outraged, and sometimes even offensive, some people get if a vehicle is painted the "wrong" color. First: after spending hundreds or thousands of hours of voluntary labour in it, may we please paint it the way we like it? And second: it's only paint, nothing irreversible.
What people must remember, the colours were mixed either by weight, or volume and the final colour mix would be approved by the senior Paint shop personnel. If we are to look at BR Green, there was the potential to have as many different shades as there were paint shops. Then you have to take into account UV degradation of the colour and coal dust etc altering the paint colour. The one thing everybody should be grateful for is the turning out this weekend is a loco in pristine ex-works' condition. We all accept WYSIWG computer programmes why can't the brush stroke counters give the paint shop the same courtesy!
Please remember in the final days of steam who had filthy engines & coaches it was this fact that people didn't like. Be thankful for the ex works condition your loco turns up in even if it is British Leyland Tartan Red! 🤣🚘
exactly. As someone who works in a transport museum and has been involved with railway preservation (and preservation in general) i can see the appeal of making something as accurate as possible but one also has to take in to account operational considerations as well as financial and, in some cases, availability. I also find that the ones who are the loudest about how 'things should be done' are also often the same ones who refuse to volunteer their time or put their hand in their own pocket when it comes to preservation but are often the first, and loudest, ones to complain when an event is cancelled due to lack of volunteers or a restoration is delayed due to issues in fundraising.
You can paint it any colour of your choice, but remember if the paying public don't like it they may stay away. Without there financial contribution you'll be on your own looking at your handiwork.
@@grays257there is that, however the biggest complainers always seem to be those who have never donated, never visited and in general have never contributed a single cent to the restoration, operation or preservation of the item or railway that they are complaining about. There is a growing trend with the general public that they do not care if the locomotive or stock is 'historically accurate' or not, they just want a steam train to ride on.
You own it, you work restoring it, you work keeping it going, you get to decide. You don't own it, you don't work on it, you don't get involved in keeping it going, you don't get to decide or critique livery choice. Nice simple set of rules to keep the peace. The paint limitations didn't extend just to railways, somewhere I remember reading about the admiralty issuing instructions in 1940 that limited the paints for their ships which saw gloss paint no longer used after supplies on hand ran out and varnish for wooden parts like railings replaced with a lick of matt paint. Guess with linseed oil in greater need as a lubricant in industry there just wasn't enough to do the full gloss finish on things anymore. Still not exactly clear on where supplies of certain pigments came into the decision making but sure some day I'll come across a good explination as to why black was so (relatively) abundant
Agreed. Whilst I prefer the iconic liveries on certain locomotives, I don't get the vitriol behind such a sentiment. Taking Flying Scotsman as an example, yes, I would prefer to see the locomotive in LNER Apple Green that made her famous. But she was in BR green for years before withdrawal under her current number so I have no problem with the choices made by her owners. And despite not having much interest in the Royal Family, Taw Valley's QE2 jubilee special livery was interesting and stunning. No issues there.
I love pre-grouping liveries most of all, and I’d take it any day over BR black. The old liveries are so inaccurately documented that it doesn’t matter if the colours are different between surviving examples. Some of my favourites include LBSCR umber, GER ultramarine blue, and LSWR mint and chocolate green.
Eastleigh substituted Malachite green with LSWR pea green, leftover from the T3s post war repaint when they sent 02 W34 Newport to the Isle Of Wight. When BR came into being, the cabsides and tanks were painted malachite but the boiler was left in pea green. How many IOWSR fans would curse and spit if Calbourne was painted like this? Or unlined olive green like she wore during the early part of WW2?
I remember a Polycell wallpaper paste TV ad back in the 60s where they wallpapered a locomotive and ran it in wet weather to show the durability of the product. It has always "stuck with me... s'cuse the pun.😊
I know someone who owns a loco who once had a huge argument with someone over the colour of the background on the number! His was red, the 'know all' was adamant all that type of loco had green backgrounds. Knowing the history of the loco and the works where it was built he explained his red was correct. The red and green denoated slightly different versions and in the Victorian period many fitters couldn't read or write so written task sheets or instructions were a waste of time. Having different number background colours differentiated the model types so the fitters knew which type they were working on.
I always enjoy these videos, and seeing other’s opinions on liveries. As a one with a museum background, I loathe simply “that’s how XXX remembers it” and locos always being “as retired”. I am of the opinion that each piece should be considered for what it’s period of significance is, contrasted with if that requires significant alteration to historic fabric, although from a later date. OR in a case when one has several locomotives of the same class, an attempt could be considered to show their more of their life. If one has 2 Castles, consider one BR, one GWR, or one early GWR, one late.
I’m quite laid back on this topic but I love seeing unusual liveries or variations on liveries to add variety especially as so many heritage railways are plastering their fleets unremittingly in BR black or green. As far as whether a certain shade of a colour is accurate then again I’m pretty relaxed - paint fades over time plus without the technology available today batches of paint were mixed by hand so no doubt there’d be some variation between locomotives of the same class in supposedly the same livery. That’s before we consider how well they were being cleaned… or not!
Doncaster was the main works for the Great Northern Railway. When the LNER was created the main works of Darlington (NE) and Doncaster (GN) both kept there version of Green. The other works Stratford, Cowlais and Inverurie got there paint from either of the main works so slight variations of Green was common on the LNER.
Very interesting overview. Germany and some other countries settled on black paint with red wheels and chassis for their steam locomotives from the 1920s. Black was unexpensive, didn't fade and didn't look dirty when sooty. Black paint was even used for some early diesel locomotives. Wheels were painted red to see defects more easily on visual inspection. The red paint on wheels and underframes/bogies was even extended to electric locomotives (with green bodies) by post-war Deutsche Reichsbahn in east Germany. Other railways seemed to do quite well with black wheels though, and today the standard is black or dark gray for chassis/underframes/bogies/wheels because that's not as easily disfigured by brake dust and other dirt. It is interesting how widespread the standard of black steam locomotives, green passenger trains and brown freight trains used to be, not just in Europe but in many countries much farther away such as China. I assume these are durable and unexpensive colours hiding the dirt when the trains aren't cleaned as often. A disadvantage is (besides the rather dull appearance) that they aren't as visible which might be considered a risk when you want to prevent accidents (for this consideration British trains for some decades universally had yellow front end paint). At least since the Shinkansen another standard emerged with mostly white or light grey high speed trains (including the German ICE), this might partially be inspired by the white paint that's most common on civilian aircraft (there primarily for technical/economical reasons as well).
BR trains adopted yellow front warning panels around 1960 (give or take) which were later extended to full yellow front ends with the arrival of the corporate blue livery from about 1965-66 onwards. The view of many was that this livery ruined the appearance of most locomotives and undid the work of the BR Design Panel which had worked so hard to improve loco aesthetics from the early 60s on. EMUs based on traditional carriage design seemed not so badly affected. I believe the main reason for the yellow ends was to give improved visibility for track maintenance staff, as unlike on other railways BR stock lacked high visibility headlights or marker lights.When these were introduced some time later the need for yellow ends largely disappeared. Good riddance! Steam locos of course just kept chugging on getting dirtier....
Heritage railways are part of the entertainment industry. Paint anything whatever colour you like. The vast majority of visitors couldn’t care less what colour it is as long as it’s a “steam train”
I seem to just remember the BR blue at Doncaster sometime before April 1950. We used to travel from Blackpool to Middlesbrough & when we joined LNER track my dad always looked out for express locos to show me.
The problem in WW2 was there was only one painter for the entire fleet due to war work, he was Mr Black, and his work instructions were "Paint It", Black. Which in chinese whispers got confused
😅it's britain so never discount a ridiculous reason. In all seriousness though the LMS made a film in 1938 that put it at 5 days in the paint stops paint a jubilee that had been through overhaul, thats just painting up the most visible bits of the thing and no primer as it already had coats of paint from before if plain black and just sticking a decay for numbers on, which they were by this point, saved just a couple of days in the shop thats a whole lot of working time gained in the madness of war. LMS had about 7000 locos at outbreak of war, you shave even a day off the time each of those is in the paint shops when it goes for a heavy repair or full overhaul and it really adds up, before we even mention where any labour could be reallocated as a result.
AFAIK, the GWR only referred to it as "locomotive green", made from the pigment known as "middle chrome green". I've never heard "deep bronze green" referenced by the GWR, but it is quite similar and often used by modellers as it is easily available (it is the colour they paint Land Rovers).
For the LNER there was a difference between Darlington and Doncaster Green as original were different companies. Darlington Green was called Apple Green but Doncaster Green was called Grass Green. There was more White in the Darlington version. So if a loco was built or repaired by either works then the locomotives came out in the respective livery.
The Keighley and Worth Valley Railways Black 5 what a shock that was, used in an advert in the 1960s to advertise the strength of "Solvite" wallpaper paste, I saw it and could not believe my eyes! Wonder if it would suit a class 66???? Lol.😅
Honestly I think any of the British locomotives look insanely good no matter what livery they happen to be in. But I can understand the preference. Best wishes from America I’m rescend it after watching 9:26, most liveries look good on a British steam engines
Great video Will. I don't mind what if liveries in preservation on locos for a few years I think it's fun I always say I am filming/,photographing what we have achieved now not the past and unfortunately wasn't around in BR steam days. Example would like to eventually see a class 158/159 preserved and think BR green would really suit one. A 24 looks surprisingly cool in Load Haul I think if you look on the net. My fave liveries are GWR green, BR blue as that was my childhood. Intercity Swallow, RF General sector but like most really. Gloss over a few things 🙄
And of course all of that was before any paint standards were introduced so everyone even fights over the interpretation of the exact tint of green and so on. Compared to the UK Germany was a lot easier after 1930: everything black with red frame and wheels. There were a few exceptions to that, like the red streamliners and one locomotive that was painted in SVT purple but those quickly ended up black on red as well. The Br52 was often painted grey as these were primarily assigned to army duties.
I’m going to be THAT railway enthusiast and point out William Stroudley of the LBSCR (of the yellow ‘Improved Engine Green’) had died before Harry Wainwright became SECR CME so his livery wasn’t in competition with the SECR, it was the other way round.
I usually don't care about paint schemes on a locomotive, so long as they aren't ugly. Being from the USA, most any paint on a steam locomotive would be fine with me as most steamers since circa 1900 were painted black here, though there were some exceptions, usually on passenger locos. When an executive from the USA's Southern Railway visited England's Southern Railway in the 1920's, he was so impressed with the green liveries that he had his railway's passenger locos painted green as well. Southern Pacific had their GS series 4-8-4 locomotives painted in a beautiful orange, red and black scheme to match the "Daylight" express they were to pull. The scheme was so popular that many of their locos and trains were repainted to match it and one of the preserved GS locos (GS4 no.4449, still operable) wears the scheme today, leading it to be called "Daylight" as well. However, there are some exceptions I would make, like with GWR engines. I'm fine with 6024 in blue as that's my favorite color, but otherwise, a Great Western engine should be painted green. That leads to one of the many problems I have with a certain witchcraft movie series that repainted Oton Hall in an ugly shade of red that doesn't become it at all. And last update I got on it, it was still wearing that paint and fake name for those movies. I hope that someday, it's returned to the GWR livery and name, and never dressed up for that horrid movie series in any way ever again.
The Swanage have specifically painted Manston (which came out of overhaul in 2021) in a faded shabby coat of BR green to represent what she and her sisters looked like when they was withdrawn in the 60s.
I love it when things get experimental with colour. Sure, it may seem out of place at first, but it makes an engine more interesting. I could paint a Bulleid Pacific in BR green, but it would be like all the other Bulleid Pacifics. If I painted it purple though, it will stand out, and ironically, the controversy only adds to that. "Talyllyn" in GER blue? Sure, why not! There are enough BR black and green locos out there already, show some creativity! And don't get me wrong: some engines wear BR colours beautifully! But i still think flexibility and creativity are part of what keeps railways interesting, and the paintwork is usually the first thing we notice about an engine. (Btw this comment comes from an Austrian, we basically onl ly have completely black engines with -sometimes- red wheels - I yearn for change!) In summary: the "correct" liveries are the ones that look good.
Well done Will and team a very well presented video. I learnt a bit about liveries which I really didn't know, thank you. I must say Fenchurch looks outstanding. I always remember one of the class being on a plinth outside the Hayling Billy pub, I think it was Newington. All the best
Don't forget Will that the SVR also painted City of Truro in BR mixed traffic black albeit only on one side and there was a storm of protest about that too. As you said it's up to the owner not the enthusiast fraternity to decide what livery their loco will carry. It may be a BR livery or even pink with purple poker dots, its their loco their choice. Mind you I'd love to see a steam loco painted in BR corporate blue and yellow with a large arrows of indecision logo on it's tender. Why not have a bit of fun with liveries and upset the enthusiast fraternity to jog them out of the complacency.
You own it so you get to decide .... sadly the trend at the moment is for boring BR black. Pity, we don't see some of the more colourful older liveries. Prime example the new Beachy Head atlantic.
I'd quite like to see a streamlined Bullied pacific painted in 1970s BR blue, with double arrow symbol and bright yellow ends. I'm sure nobody would complain. 🙃
Very close to that was the paint scheme used for the last running BR steam locomotives. Those being the narrow gauge locomotives on the ex Vale of Rheidol line.
This isn't a new topic as far as I can tell. One of the two surviving Fairburn tank engines wore the Caledonian Railways blue livery in preservation in the 1970's-80's. I can only imagine the amount of head explosions it caused back when it was done, and how much worse it would be if the Internet were around! The other preserved Fairburn wore LNWR lined black at the same time, which was less controversial because it was still a mostly-plain black livery. The class only ever wore LMS black and BR black when in service.
i don't think people who complain about liveries have a leg to stand on considering it's not theirs and they can go somewhere else that has that loco in the colours they like. also almost any thing can be authentic i've seen photos of a midland compound in bright yellow paint ( if your interested look up the daily mirror andy capp blackpool special ).
Think it's bad in the UK try here in Australia so in South Australia we have same ish colours with Black the main one with a few dark greens etc. So a loco here was green for a long time and the railway decided to make it black. So half were for it long time others weren't and now it's flipped people saying it should go back green. So know your point very well Will
and god forbid a heritage operation decide to apply a livery of another railway to an engine that never carried it. The Zig Zag Railway's ex-QGR AC16 class 2-8-2 is a good example of this as it now carries what appears to be the passenger livery used on NSWGR steam locomotives like the C36 class. I am the first to admit that I am not the biggest fan of the repaint although that is more because I think that with a little tweaking it could have looked amazing instead of just 'good' but to hear some enthusiasts talk you would think that the ZZR took a gas axe to it.......... I have seen complaints about the green livery on DownsSteam's Ex-QGR C16 class 4-8-0 out of Toowoomba despite the fact that the engine looks bloody fantastic in that livery. 'Enthusiasts' need to pull their heads out of their own backsides
🎨🖌 Wish I was wealthy enough to buy a British steam locomotive and have it painted in an American livery from one of the several colorful streamlined steam locos we had. The Lackawanna, and the Lehigh Valley, come to mind as top inspirations ...
👀just wait until they realise the "J94" never worked with BR and has had vacuum brakes added and is in fact just a regular example that worked for the NCB.
As much as I'd love to see Scotsman in LNER Apple green, I'm not the chairman and I don't make the decisions. I _do_ however wish it was possible for them to rotate liveries on a full if not half year basis so people can see the engine in all varying sorts of colours such as the Royal blue or Black Scotsman also wore, although I understand all too well how much a nightmare that'd be in costs.
Well in an ideal world i would like to see locos have the livery of their original operator,but then you would also need the running stock to go with it and place it on the same stretch of line it operated,but that combination of ideal factors would be pretty rare. Lets take as an example the LD & ECR running from Chesterfield to Lincoln from 1897 to 1907. Part of that track still exists, there is one carraige in preservation and there may be examples of loco museum pieces that later became owned by the Great Central and LNER but the original company only operated 10 years, any loco inherited would have spent their life split between GCR & LNER before bieng hauled for scrap in the early years of British Railways, but whoever puts money into the preservation should surely have the right to say what the final livery is.
I think that the best livery for engines are the ones it is most known for like fenchurch is known for the lbscr umber the gwr 6000 is known for gwr green
If a heritage railway wants to paint stock I ask they use a livery that was used in actual service. It keeps it historical. I only remember British Rail Blue. Then Intercity colours then Network SouthEast. After privatisation there are many liveries. I wish modern stock 2024 was painted one colour like London red buses with a simple operator logo. Saves millions on rebranding.
Surely " it's my loco, so i choose the colour" applies? As long as it looks great, it doesn't really matter. Although I have to say that while I lliked the SVRs commemorating QE 2's jubilee, IMO, the actual shade of purple could have been a little darker. ( We had a family trip to the SVR on the day of the renaming ceremony)
Could you confirm whether the Railways had records of how the paint was mixed ie 10 gallons of Green, 5 gallons of Bronze etc. There is ongoing debate both in the preserved scene and in the model railway world about whethèr a livery is correct? Unless I am incorrect there did not seem to be a BS std number for their colours. I won't go into the debate about Green from a certain railway company and what was is its correct name.
BS colours didn't exist until 1930, British colour council likewise didn't exist until acter 1930 and even then these only described a limited range of colour specifications that didn't really take in railways until into the latter half of the 1940s at the earliest if they did at all.
@@Samstrainss Thanks that's what I suspected. I hadn't looked into the history of the BS colours and how they came about must be fascinating to research. Looking at the War Department General Post Office charts etc.
@@billmmckelvie5188 pretty much, the first batch of BS colours was very limited and mainly for the official uses you note though I imagine they found use in industry more broadly as well the railways were very much a law unto themselves as far as colours went. Even when they were informed to paint everything black there wasn't an explicit order of matt or gloss or anything like that they just got told black, matt black probably became the norm as supplies of enough material to do a gloss paint job were used up. This was the case with the admiralty they issued orders to do gloss finishes until supplies on hand ran out then switched to a more limited pallet of matt colours and eliminated clear varnish.
@@hawkerhellfire9152 frames, cylinders, rods, wheels, boiler(most of it), backhead fittings, axle boxes, tender frame and its wheels and all that. Its mostly still metal that was purchased from BR.
Authentic liveries are best. Genuine liveries next, ‘oddball’ liveries last. BUT if an owner has invested cash and effort in restoration painting is his prerogative.
There was a bright pink class 03 shunter for a day or two, painted with a water based paint in honour of the birthday of a prominent member of a preservation group
If the heritage railway piant thier locomitive a different colour than it orginal livery it give the people visting the sense they have new locomitive in their fleet and keeps them wanting to vist after all if the vistors do come then no railway at the end of the day
What's that chaps name Will?????🤔🤔 Great vid till you mentioned a Black 5 in Apple Green🤢🤢😂😂 I thought Sir Nige & Taw looked great in black though. Lets be thankful these locos are running at all.
My favourite livery of all time (independent of the company) is the Wainwright livery for the SE&CR. As you said, companies changed their liveries over time so there is not one definitive livery. The worst comment that may be made about painting the loco purple in commemoration of the Queen's jubilee is that it was a waste of money. May I assume that the livery was changed after a suitable period?
I am of the side to paint the loco's as they last ran in service ,as there can't be many people alive who remember pre-Nat loco's running , obviously loco's which never carried BR livery fine ,but just look at Blue Peter , amazing restoration ,but BR Express blue ? it never carried it hmmm ,
Well, if they repaint it, then they can rerepaint it BR blue because now it is or has or was carrying/carried it depending on when you read or read this. 😵💫
Timecode 9:23 that was an advert in the 70s for " Super Fresco " wallpaper by Graham and Crown to prove that steamy conditions wouldn't make the paper fall off. My mind is FULL of this useless rubbish.
This is obviously a very emotive subject but why restore these locomotives to their former grandeur and not paint them in a livery which was used in service. Seems a little strange to me. You wouldn't restore an oil painting using different colours would you? I remember seeing a class 50 painted in Load Haul livery it looked very nice but not correct. 🚂🚂🚂
If you owned the oil painting you could, there are artists out there who will buy others art and use it as part of their own art by defacing it or otherwise recycling it. The paint is a deeply temporary factor in the lives of these locomotives. It lasts about 5 minutes before it aquires chips or cracks due to heat, it doesn't have the same permanency nor expressive artistic intent as an oil painting. It's rather like clothing, you wouldn't wear the same clothing year in year out for decades on end simply because it fit and you had reached a point where you had stablised in terms of shirt size or something. It's about as permanent as a change of outfit in terms of the life span of these machines.
Well, talk about opening a proverbial "can of worms". And the keyboard warriors go MAD!!!! Not me. Don't OWN one, don't have a say. PERIOD. Case closed!!
As long as it never appears in a BR livery except the lined black like a Black 5 which is really LNWR lined Black I’m good. Don’t need to ever see a BR livery myself nor any memories of BR
Same with the 'big railway' people more focused on what crap livery loco's are painted(WR Western anyone?) then the broken,not fit for purpose privattised mess we are stuck with
@richardharrold9736 Please tell us our joking! the only thing that privatisation has bought is hundreds of millions being siphoned off into the pockets of shareholders and CEOs bank accounts. BR was far from perfect but considering they had little money(just over 3 billion at the end?) compared to today they didnt do a bad job. And if privatisation is such a good thing why hasn't any other country tried it Just compare our mickey mouse' High Speed' trains to France, Germany etc. And as for HST2 the biggest vanity rail project...ever lets not go there!
Paint them how they were during the period after nationalisation - from 1948 till the end of steam in 1968. This is because a huge proportion of the potential passengers for heritage railways were trainspotters during this period. They remember, and miss steam specifically from this era. Even younger enthusiasts are far more interested in photographs of engines from the post war period. Back in 1968, however, things were very different. At that time most enthusiasts had never seen locos running in older liveries, such as WR locos with the number on the buffer beam as they were in GWR days. They marvelled at finally seeing A4 locos like 60007 Nigel Gresley in blue instead of green with the LNER number 4498. But now the precise opposite is true. That novelty is long over. They yearn to see and re-experiene steam as they remember it in the final years. I am convinced that heritage railway passenger numbers would be much higher if they catered for this. I, for one am unlikely to re-visit Didcot steam shed which caters almost exclusively for GWR locos in GWR colours. If they repainted at least half of their stock in BR colours, so that it was reminiscent of Old Oak Common in 1964, it would draw in far more enthusiasts and their families.
@richardharrold9736 to some extent I agree, but then show me the rake of bullied coaches to go with it? While I enjoy looking through books and seeing that weird 80s rail tour asthetic of the big 4 livery loco pulling a bunch of intercity/blue and gray MK1s it is a bit jarring to most. I think preserved railways, the bigger ones, and indeed mainline operators aim to present a sort of coordinated appearance these days because it looks professional and not thrown together to make the best of a bad situation. You also have to appreciate that a lot of these are still kept by volunteers, volunteers at the end of the day have to keep it looking good, volunteers have to wash and clean it and frankly some colours just need a lot more scrubbing and maintainance to keep the loco looking presentable. Caledonian blue for example, is beautiful, but an absolute pain the posterior to keep looking nice from personal experience. BR green, black, these are comfy to keep nice relatively speaking. It's a business really, it has to present nicely to the public most of whom are not uhhh healthily enthusiastic, like you or I. We'd probably show up to see one if it was sprayed with dung but still running, they won't, best to make a good impression on them with a nice tidy looking railway than look a shambles and put them off
@richardharrold9736 even so, mk1s in green arent all *that* common. Not to mention the rest about keeping the thing looking good. And yeah there are smaller locos in these big 4 or earlier liveries but they're smaller and therefore less work to keep clean. Big spam can is not a small task to keep looking good
@richardharrold9736 yeah they're also dead easy to look filthy but thats another story. 2 out of the what, 6? Airsmoothed ones going normally do operate in southern colours, not bad really, could always be zero with the right donations made😆
The important lesson here: (1) Don't paint heritage engines in war colours, they're boring, ugly, and not representative of their service. They were black out of necessity, not choice. (2) Don't paint heritage engines in flashy colours that aren't even loosely reminiscent of what they wore in service. (3) Exception to the above: BR Black is as bad as wartime black and should be purged from railway history as an affront to liveries.
499 should be BR black. That’s the livery which suits it’s end of service condition. End of discussion. I shall cease to visit the railway if it comes out in green. No I won’t actually… I will visit but I will peer over the fence and enjoy it without paying.
As a heritage railway volunteer, it is shocking how outraged, and sometimes even offensive, some people get if a vehicle is painted the "wrong" color. First: after spending hundreds or thousands of hours of voluntary labour in it, may we please paint it the way we like it? And second: it's only paint, nothing irreversible.
What people must remember, the colours were mixed either by weight, or volume and the final colour mix would be approved by the senior Paint shop personnel.
If we are to look at BR Green, there was the potential to have as many different shades as there were paint shops. Then you have to take into account UV degradation of the colour and coal dust etc altering the paint colour.
The one thing everybody should be grateful for is the turning out this weekend is a loco in pristine ex-works' condition. We all accept WYSIWG computer programmes why can't the brush stroke counters give the paint shop the same courtesy!
Please remember in the final days of steam who had filthy engines & coaches it was this fact that people didn't like. Be thankful for the ex works condition your loco turns up in even if it is British Leyland Tartan Red! 🤣🚘
exactly. As someone who works in a transport museum and has been involved with railway preservation (and preservation in general) i can see the appeal of making something as accurate as possible but one also has to take in to account operational considerations as well as financial and, in some cases, availability. I also find that the ones who are the loudest about how 'things should be done' are also often the same ones who refuse to volunteer their time or put their hand in their own pocket when it comes to preservation but are often the first, and loudest, ones to complain when an event is cancelled due to lack of volunteers or a restoration is delayed due to issues in fundraising.
You can paint it any colour of your choice, but remember if the paying public don't like it they may stay away. Without there financial contribution you'll be on your own looking at your handiwork.
@@grays257there is that, however the biggest complainers always seem to be those who have never donated, never visited and in general have never contributed a single cent to the restoration, operation or preservation of the item or railway that they are complaining about.
There is a growing trend with the general public that they do not care if the locomotive or stock is 'historically accurate' or not, they just want a steam train to ride on.
You own it, you work restoring it, you work keeping it going, you get to decide.
You don't own it, you don't work on it, you don't get involved in keeping it going, you don't get to decide or critique livery choice.
Nice simple set of rules to keep the peace.
The paint limitations didn't extend just to railways, somewhere I remember reading about the admiralty issuing instructions in 1940 that limited the paints for their ships which saw gloss paint no longer used after supplies on hand ran out and varnish for wooden parts like railings replaced with a lick of matt paint. Guess with linseed oil in greater need as a lubricant in industry there just wasn't enough to do the full gloss finish on things anymore. Still not exactly clear on where supplies of certain pigments came into the decision making but sure some day I'll come across a good explination as to why black was so (relatively) abundant
too many bleeding hearts, don't know anything about details for any project.
Costs, it all depends on the cost of the raw materials used, usually governed by its ease of availability and production
I think It's fun having some of the locos wearing different liveries that they may not have worn in active service. More FUN!
Agreed. Whilst I prefer the iconic liveries on certain locomotives, I don't get the vitriol behind such a sentiment. Taking Flying Scotsman as an example, yes, I would prefer to see the locomotive in LNER Apple Green that made her famous. But she was in BR green for years before withdrawal under her current number so I have no problem with the choices made by her owners. And despite not having much interest in the Royal Family, Taw Valley's QE2 jubilee special livery was interesting and stunning. No issues there.
You can paint the loco in any colour you like, as long as you like what I like. - Rail Enthusiast Henry Ford (probably).
Thank you Jeremy Clarkson II for this new episode of Train Gear
Interesting one, and I love the cooperation with Didcot and Bluebell that really lifted the whole video.
I love pre-grouping liveries most of all, and I’d take it any day over BR black. The old liveries are so inaccurately documented that it doesn’t matter if the colours are different between surviving examples. Some of my favourites include LBSCR umber, GER ultramarine blue, and LSWR mint and chocolate green.
It would be nice to see Grouping and pre-grouping engines in their original liveries than just BRs colour scheme.
Not forgetting when the SVR and steam railway painting one side of city of truro in BR lined black for an April fools front cover back in the 1980's
I wonder if someone would do that to one of the Rocket replicas as a joke.
i recall reading that death threats were received over that. Some people are just pathetic
Love it, I can just imagine the reaction!
@@joshslater2426 It would be even funnier if they did it to the Hornby model and put the picture onto real rails!
One of the outgoing Class 455's on SWR has been repainted in BR Blue and grey. Very smart!
Would like to see an A4 in that colour scheme !
Eastleigh substituted Malachite green with LSWR pea green, leftover from the T3s post war repaint when they sent 02 W34 Newport to the Isle Of Wight. When BR came into being, the cabsides and tanks were painted malachite but the boiler was left in pea green. How many IOWSR fans would curse and spit if Calbourne was painted like this? Or unlined olive green like she wore during the early part of WW2?
I remember a Polycell wallpaper paste TV ad back in the 60s where they wallpapered a locomotive and ran it in wet weather to show the durability of the product.
It has always "stuck with me... s'cuse the pun.😊
Keighley and Worth Valley's Black 5. advert for Solvite still available on you tube
I know someone who owns a loco who once had a huge argument with someone over the colour of the background on the number! His was red, the 'know all' was adamant all that type of loco had green backgrounds.
Knowing the history of the loco and the works where it was built he explained his red was correct. The red and green denoated slightly different versions and in the Victorian period many fitters couldn't read or write so written task sheets or instructions were a waste of time.
Having different number background colours differentiated the model types so the fitters knew which type they were working on.
I always enjoy these videos, and seeing other’s opinions on liveries. As a one with a museum background, I loathe simply “that’s how XXX remembers it” and locos always being “as retired”. I am of the opinion that each piece should be considered for what it’s period of significance is, contrasted with if that requires significant alteration to historic fabric, although from a later date. OR in a case when one has several locomotives of the same class, an attempt could be considered to show their more of their life. If one has 2 Castles, consider one BR, one GWR, or one early GWR, one late.
I’m quite laid back on this topic but I love seeing unusual liveries or variations on liveries to add variety especially as so many heritage railways are plastering their fleets unremittingly in BR black or green. As far as whether a certain shade of a colour is accurate then again I’m pretty relaxed - paint fades over time plus without the technology available today batches of paint were mixed by hand so no doubt there’d be some variation between locomotives of the same class in supposedly the same livery. That’s before we consider how well they were being cleaned… or not!
Doncaster was the main works for the Great Northern Railway. When the LNER was created the main works of Darlington (NE) and Doncaster (GN) both kept there version of Green. The other works Stratford, Cowlais and Inverurie got there paint from either of the main works so slight variations of Green was common on the LNER.
Very interesting overview. Germany and some other countries settled on black paint with red wheels and chassis for their steam locomotives from the 1920s. Black was unexpensive, didn't fade and didn't look dirty when sooty. Black paint was even used for some early diesel locomotives. Wheels were painted red to see defects more easily on visual inspection. The red paint on wheels and underframes/bogies was even extended to electric locomotives (with green bodies) by post-war Deutsche Reichsbahn in east Germany. Other railways seemed to do quite well with black wheels though, and today the standard is black or dark gray for chassis/underframes/bogies/wheels because that's not as easily disfigured by brake dust and other dirt.
It is interesting how widespread the standard of black steam locomotives, green passenger trains and brown freight trains used to be, not just in Europe but in many countries much farther away such as China. I assume these are durable and unexpensive colours hiding the dirt when the trains aren't cleaned as often. A disadvantage is (besides the rather dull appearance) that they aren't as visible which might be considered a risk when you want to prevent accidents (for this consideration British trains for some decades universally had yellow front end paint).
At least since the Shinkansen another standard emerged with mostly white or light grey high speed trains (including the German ICE), this might partially be inspired by the white paint that's most common on civilian aircraft (there primarily for technical/economical reasons as well).
BR trains adopted yellow front warning panels around 1960 (give or take) which were later extended to full yellow front ends with the arrival of the corporate blue livery from about 1965-66 onwards. The view of many was that this livery ruined the appearance of most locomotives and undid the work of the BR Design Panel which had worked so hard to improve loco aesthetics from the early 60s on. EMUs based on traditional carriage design seemed not so badly affected. I believe the main reason for the yellow ends was to give improved visibility for track maintenance staff, as unlike on other railways BR stock lacked high visibility headlights or marker lights.When these were introduced some time later the need for yellow ends largely disappeared. Good riddance! Steam locos of course just kept chugging on getting dirtier....
Thanks for this! The series is always fantastic but this was particularly useful for helping justify paint schemes for the 5" gauge locos too!
‘Because I want to’ is enough justification on your own engine!
Great video. Presentation gets better and better.
Heritage railways are part of the entertainment industry. Paint anything whatever colour you like. The vast majority of visitors couldn’t care less what colour it is as long as it’s a “steam train”
LBSCR and SECR liveries look really nice.
Yeah they are
Nice to the wall paper again. When she came out of Barry, she came to Derby. I was a year 2 apprentice who worked on her.
I seem to just remember the BR blue at Doncaster sometime before April 1950. We used to travel from Blackpool to Middlesbrough & when we joined LNER track my dad always looked out for express locos to show me.
The problem in WW2 was there was only one painter for the entire fleet due to war work, he was Mr Black, and his work instructions were "Paint It", Black. Which in chinese whispers got confused
😅it's britain so never discount a ridiculous reason.
In all seriousness though the LMS made a film in 1938 that put it at 5 days in the paint stops paint a jubilee that had been through overhaul, thats just painting up the most visible bits of the thing and no primer as it already had coats of paint from before if plain black and just sticking a decay for numbers on, which they were by this point, saved just a couple of days in the shop thats a whole lot of working time gained in the madness of war. LMS had about 7000 locos at outbreak of war, you shave even a day off the time each of those is in the paint shops when it goes for a heavy repair or full overhaul and it really adds up, before we even mention where any labour could be reallocated as a result.
Interesting stuff! Hopefully one day soon, we will be having discussions about what colour to paint..... something 😉🚂
I don't think GWR ever painted steam locomotives in Brunswick green, that was a BR colour for some steam locomotives, GWR used Deep Bronze Green.
The words sound similar but I think you are right.
AFAIK, the GWR only referred to it as "locomotive green", made from the pigment known as "middle chrome green". I've never heard "deep bronze green" referenced by the GWR, but it is quite similar and often used by modellers as it is easily available (it is the colour they paint Land Rovers).
For the LNER there was a difference between Darlington and Doncaster Green as original were different companies. Darlington Green was called Apple Green but Doncaster Green was called Grass Green. There was more White in the Darlington version. So if a loco was built or repaired by either works then the locomotives came out in the respective livery.
what was the name of the Doncaster company (Darlington presumably NE) ?
Thank you for a most entertaining and informative presentation - keep up the good work!
9:25 there was also that bright yellow & red Daily Mirror Midland Compound
Andy Capp special. Thought it had pink wheels.
The Keighley and Worth Valley Railways Black 5 what a shock that was, used in an advert in the 1960s to advertise the strength of "Solvite" wallpaper paste, I saw it and could not believe my eyes! Wonder if it would suit a class 66???? Lol.😅
Honestly I think any of the British locomotives look insanely good no matter what livery they happen to be in. But I can understand the preference. Best wishes from America
I’m rescend it after watching 9:26, most liveries look good on a British steam engines
Great video Will. I don't mind what if liveries in preservation on locos for a few years I think it's fun I always say I am filming/,photographing what we have achieved now not the past and unfortunately wasn't around in BR steam days. Example would like to eventually see a class 158/159 preserved and think BR green would really suit one. A 24 looks surprisingly cool in Load Haul I think if you look on the net. My fave liveries are GWR green, BR blue as that was my childhood. Intercity Swallow, RF General sector but like most really. Gloss over a few things 🙄
An excellent look at liveries. Well done Will & co!
Well done Will very informative stuff mate.
Locomotive Liveries: A Brush With Controversy LOVE LOUIS SHIRLEY
A bloke at the Lakeside railway painted his a silly colour as he was fed up with the 'bright guys' telling him what it 'should be'!
And of course all of that was before any paint standards were introduced so everyone even fights over the interpretation of the exact tint of green and so on.
Compared to the UK Germany was a lot easier after 1930: everything black with red frame and wheels. There were a few exceptions to that, like the red streamliners and one locomotive that was painted in SVT purple but those quickly ended up black on red as well. The Br52 was often painted grey as these were primarily assigned to army duties.
I’m going to be THAT railway enthusiast and point out William Stroudley of the LBSCR (of the yellow ‘Improved Engine Green’) had died before Harry Wainwright became SECR CME so his livery wasn’t in competition with the SECR, it was the other way round.
I usually don't care about paint schemes on a locomotive, so long as they aren't ugly. Being from the USA, most any paint on a steam locomotive would be fine with me as most steamers since circa 1900 were painted black here, though there were some exceptions, usually on passenger locos. When an executive from the USA's Southern Railway visited England's Southern Railway in the 1920's, he was so impressed with the green liveries that he had his railway's passenger locos painted green as well. Southern Pacific had their GS series 4-8-4 locomotives painted in a beautiful orange, red and black scheme to match the "Daylight" express they were to pull. The scheme was so popular that many of their locos and trains were repainted to match it and one of the preserved GS locos (GS4 no.4449, still operable) wears the scheme today, leading it to be called "Daylight" as well. However, there are some exceptions I would make, like with GWR engines. I'm fine with 6024 in blue as that's my favorite color, but otherwise, a Great Western engine should be painted green. That leads to one of the many problems I have with a certain witchcraft movie series that repainted Oton Hall in an ugly shade of red that doesn't become it at all. And last update I got on it, it was still wearing that paint and fake name for those movies. I hope that someday, it's returned to the GWR livery and name, and never dressed up for that horrid movie series in any way ever again.
In the final days of BR operation steam locos did not have a liverie, they were all covered in grey muck
The Swanage have specifically painted Manston (which came out of overhaul in 2021) in a faded shabby coat of BR green to represent what she and her sisters looked like when they was withdrawn in the 60s.
I love it when things get experimental with colour. Sure, it may seem out of place at first, but it makes an engine more interesting. I could paint a Bulleid Pacific in BR green, but it would be like all the other Bulleid Pacifics. If I painted it purple though, it will stand out, and ironically, the controversy only adds to that. "Talyllyn" in GER blue? Sure, why not! There are enough BR black and green locos out there already, show some creativity! And don't get me wrong: some engines wear BR colours beautifully! But i still think flexibility and creativity are part of what keeps railways interesting, and the paintwork is usually the first thing we notice about an engine. (Btw this comment comes from an Austrian, we basically onl ly have completely black engines with -sometimes- red wheels - I yearn for change!) In summary: the "correct" liveries are the ones that look good.
Well done Will and team a very well presented video. I learnt a bit about liveries which I really didn't know, thank you.
I must say Fenchurch looks outstanding. I always remember one of the class being on a plinth outside the Hayling Billy pub, I think it was Newington.
All the best
These Mid Hants Railway videos are brilliant. 👏👏👏👏👏
An excellent and interesting history lesson which I'm sure will promote much discussion. Also enjoyed the tongue tied section at the end. Well done.
if you want a row, just look at the discussions in Caledonian Railway circulars at to the difference between St. Rollox Blue and Perth Blue
Don't forget Will that the SVR also painted City of Truro in BR mixed traffic black albeit only on one side and there was a storm of protest about that too. As you said it's up to the owner not the enthusiast fraternity to decide what livery their loco will carry. It may be a BR livery or even pink with purple poker dots, its their loco their choice. Mind you I'd love to see a steam loco painted in BR corporate blue and yellow with a large arrows of indecision logo on it's tender. Why not have a bit of fun with liveries and upset the enthusiast fraternity to jog them out of the complacency.
Vale of Rheidol precedent existed. Saw them in 1980.
I think lner green 2006 was the livery that fit Scotsman the most.
But I do prefer br green over lner green.
You own it so you get to decide .... sadly the trend at the moment is for boring BR black. Pity, we don't see some of the more colourful older liveries. Prime example the new Beachy Head atlantic.
I'd quite like to see a streamlined Bullied pacific painted in 1970s BR blue, with double arrow symbol and bright yellow ends. I'm sure nobody would complain. 🙃
Very close to that was the paint scheme used for the last running BR steam locomotives. Those being the narrow gauge locomotives on the ex Vale of Rheidol line.
This isn't a new topic as far as I can tell. One of the two surviving Fairburn tank engines wore the Caledonian Railways blue livery in preservation in the 1970's-80's. I can only imagine the amount of head explosions it caused back when it was done, and how much worse it would be if the Internet were around! The other preserved Fairburn wore LNWR lined black at the same time, which was less controversial because it was still a mostly-plain black livery. The class only ever wore LMS black and BR black when in service.
i don't think people who complain about liveries have a leg to stand on considering it's not theirs and they can go somewhere else that has that loco in the colours they like. also almost any thing can be authentic i've seen photos of a midland compound in bright yellow paint ( if your interested look up the daily mirror andy capp blackpool special ).
Think it's bad in the UK try here in Australia so in South Australia we have same ish colours with Black the main one with a few dark greens etc. So a loco here was green for a long time and the railway decided to make it black. So half were for it long time others weren't and now it's flipped people saying it should go back green. So know your point very well Will
and god forbid a heritage operation decide to apply a livery of another railway to an engine that never carried it. The Zig Zag Railway's ex-QGR AC16 class 2-8-2 is a good example of this as it now carries what appears to be the passenger livery used on NSWGR steam locomotives like the C36 class. I am the first to admit that I am not the biggest fan of the repaint although that is more because I think that with a little tweaking it could have looked amazing instead of just 'good' but to hear some enthusiasts talk you would think that the ZZR took a gas axe to it.......... I have seen complaints about the green livery on DownsSteam's Ex-QGR C16 class 4-8-0 out of Toowoomba despite the fact that the engine looks bloody fantastic in that livery.
'Enthusiasts' need to pull their heads out of their own backsides
@RedtailFox1 and off Keyboards too, but yea some colours just work for a change, and for a reason
Anything goes, so long as Hawi Rainwight would have approved. Will, I feel your pain!
🎨🖌 Wish I was wealthy enough to buy a British steam locomotive and have it painted in an American livery from one of the several colorful streamlined steam locos we had. The Lackawanna, and the Lehigh Valley, come to mind as top inspirations ...
Glad you're not wealthy then...
Wait till the livery mafia find out some locomotives are running on tracks that they never ran on in service....
👀just wait until they realise the "J94" never worked with BR and has had vacuum brakes added and is in fact just a regular example that worked for the NCB.
Cheers, Will, and the film crew for yet another informative video. But why spoil it with alleged repeated bloopers.
Love this.
Spoke at gcr...😎
Speaking of which , what colour locos were Great Central, (MSL) , and London Tilbury and Southend?
@richardharrold9736 Thanks
As much as I'd love to see Scotsman in LNER Apple green, I'm not the chairman and I don't make the decisions.
I _do_ however wish it was possible for them to rotate liveries on a full if not half year basis so people can see the engine in all varying sorts of colours such as the Royal blue or Black Scotsman also wore, although I understand all too well how much a nightmare that'd be in costs.
Well in an ideal world i would like to see locos have the livery of their original operator,but then you would also need the running stock to go with it and place it on the same stretch of line it operated,but that combination of ideal factors would be pretty rare. Lets take as an example the LD & ECR running from Chesterfield to Lincoln from 1897 to 1907. Part of that track still exists, there is one carraige in preservation and there may be examples of loco museum pieces that later became owned by the Great Central and LNER but the original company only operated 10 years, any loco inherited would have spent their life split between GCR & LNER before bieng hauled for scrap in the early years of British Railways, but whoever puts money into the preservation should surely have the right to say what the final livery is.
I think that the best livery for engines are the ones it is most known for like fenchurch is known for the lbscr umber the gwr 6000 is known for gwr green
If a heritage railway wants to paint stock I ask they use a livery that was used in actual service. It keeps it historical. I only remember British Rail Blue. Then Intercity colours then Network SouthEast. After privatisation there are many liveries. I wish modern stock 2024 was painted one colour like London red buses with a simple operator logo. Saves millions on rebranding.
Going to be fun telling people Fenchurch is green 😂
They were green!
Surely " it's my loco, so i choose the colour" applies? As long as it looks great, it doesn't really matter. Although I have to say that while I lliked the SVRs commemorating QE 2's jubilee, IMO, the actual shade of purple could have been a little darker. ( We had a family trip to the SVR on the day of the renaming ceremony)
WILL your a star buddy👍👍👍
0:35Yes, but that was truly horrid.
The plain back she was then repainted in looked great, though.
Na it was great non standard colours all the way
Could you confirm whether the Railways had records of how the paint was mixed ie 10 gallons of Green, 5 gallons of Bronze etc. There is ongoing debate both in the preserved scene and in the model railway world about whethèr a livery is correct? Unless I am incorrect there did not seem to be a BS std number for their colours. I won't go into the debate about Green from a certain railway company and what was is its correct name.
BS colours didn't exist until 1930, British colour council likewise didn't exist until acter 1930 and even then these only described a limited range of colour specifications that didn't really take in railways until into the latter half of the 1940s at the earliest if they did at all.
@@Samstrainss Thanks that's what I suspected. I hadn't looked into the history of the BS colours and how they came about must be fascinating to research. Looking at the War Department General Post Office charts etc.
@@billmmckelvie5188 pretty much, the first batch of BS colours was very limited and mainly for the official uses you note though I imagine they found use in industry more broadly as well the railways were very much a law unto themselves as far as colours went. Even when they were informed to paint everything black there wasn't an explicit order of matt or gloss or anything like that they just got told black, matt black probably became the norm as supplies of enough material to do a gloss paint job were used up. This was the case with the admiralty they issued orders to do gloss finishes until supplies on hand ran out then switched to a more limited pallet of matt colours and eliminated clear varnish.
Flying Scotsman should be BR green as they very little of LNER locomotive remains
Not a lot of the BR loco survives at this stage!
@@hawkerhellfire9152 frames, cylinders, rods, wheels, boiler(most of it), backhead fittings, axle boxes, tender frame and its wheels and all that. Its mostly still metal that was purchased from BR.
@richardharrold9736 maybe a 3rd, still mostly old metal. It's still a ways off being a real Triggers broom case.
Paint it whatever colour you like if you own it. 🙂👍
Authentic liveries are best. Genuine liveries next, ‘oddball’ liveries last. BUT if an owner has invested cash and effort in restoration painting is his prerogative.
I await the day Flying Scotsman gets put in NBR Royal Tartan
Bright pink black 5 please
There was a bright pink class 03 shunter for a day or two, painted with a water based paint in honour of the birthday of a prominent member of a preservation group
Rule One should also apply to hertiage railways. It's your loco and coaches paint them any way you want. Bill from California
If the heritage railway piant thier locomitive a different colour than it orginal livery it give the people visting the sense they have new locomitive in their fleet and keeps them wanting to vist after all if the vistors do come then no railway at the end of the day
Should people not just be happy that these machines are still running?
What does it say on the V5 document as the original colour 😂😂😂
What's that chaps name Will?????🤔🤔 Great vid till you mentioned a Black 5 in Apple Green🤢🤢😂😂 I thought Sir Nige & Taw looked great in black though. Lets be thankful these locos are running at all.
They should repaint Flying Scotsman in BR large-logo blue...
🎉🎉🎉
Russia Iron and polished brass. There is no substitute.
My favourite livery of all time (independent of the company) is the Wainwright livery for the SE&CR. As you said, companies changed their liveries over time so there is not one definitive livery. The worst comment that may be made about painting the loco purple in commemoration of the Queen's jubilee is that it was a waste of money. May I assume that the livery was changed after a suitable period?
I spy Earl Bathurst. Hellfire
I am of the side to paint the loco's as they last ran in service ,as there can't be many people alive who remember pre-Nat loco's running , obviously loco's which never carried BR livery fine ,but just look at Blue Peter , amazing restoration ,but BR Express blue ? it never carried it hmmm ,
Not an LNER fan but Blue Peter does look stunning. I am a GW nut, but hate the King in green. Just shows how controversial this subject can be!
Well, if they repaint it, then they can rerepaint it BR blue because now it is or has or was carrying/carried it depending on when you read or read this. 😵💫
Timecode 9:23 that was an advert in the 70s for " Super Fresco " wallpaper by Graham and Crown to prove that steamy conditions wouldn't make the paper fall off. My mind is FULL of this useless rubbish.
This is obviously a very emotive subject but why restore these locomotives to their former grandeur and not paint them in a livery which was used in service. Seems a little strange to me. You wouldn't restore an oil painting using different colours would you?
I remember seeing a class 50 painted in Load Haul livery it looked very nice but not correct.
🚂🚂🚂
If you owned the oil painting you could, there are artists out there who will buy others art and use it as part of their own art by defacing it or otherwise recycling it.
The paint is a deeply temporary factor in the lives of these locomotives. It lasts about 5 minutes before it aquires chips or cracks due to heat, it doesn't have the same permanency nor expressive artistic intent as an oil painting. It's rather like clothing, you wouldn't wear the same clothing year in year out for decades on end simply because it fit and you had reached a point where you had stablised in terms of shirt size or something. It's about as permanent as a change of outfit in terms of the life span of these machines.
Well, talk about opening a proverbial "can of worms". And the keyboard warriors go MAD!!!! Not me. Don't OWN one, don't have a say. PERIOD. Case closed!!
Or Don't paint them 😁
As long as it never appears in a BR livery except the lined black like a Black 5 which is really LNWR lined Black I’m good. Don’t need to ever see a BR livery myself nor any memories of BR
Same with the 'big railway' people more focused on what crap livery loco's are painted(WR Western anyone?) then the broken,not fit for purpose privattised mess we are stuck with
@richardharrold9736 Please tell us our joking! the only thing that privatisation has bought is hundreds of millions being siphoned off into the pockets of shareholders and CEOs bank accounts.
BR was far from perfect but considering they had little money(just over 3 billion at the end?) compared to today they didnt do a bad job.
And if privatisation is such a good thing why hasn't any other country tried it
Just compare our mickey mouse' High Speed' trains to France, Germany etc.
And as for HST2 the biggest vanity rail project...ever lets not go there!
Paint them how they were during the period after nationalisation - from 1948 till the end of steam in 1968.
This is because a huge proportion of the potential passengers for heritage railways were trainspotters during this period. They remember, and miss steam specifically from this era. Even younger enthusiasts are far more interested in photographs of engines from the post war period. Back in 1968, however, things were very different. At that time most enthusiasts had never seen locos running in older liveries, such as WR locos with the number on the buffer beam as they were in GWR days. They marvelled at finally seeing A4 locos like 60007 Nigel Gresley in blue instead of green with the LNER number 4498. But now the precise opposite is true. That novelty is long over. They yearn to see and re-experiene steam as they remember it in the final years. I am convinced that heritage railway passenger numbers would be much higher if they catered for this. I, for one am unlikely to re-visit Didcot steam shed which caters almost exclusively for GWR locos in GWR colours. If they repainted at least half of their stock in BR colours, so that it was reminiscent of Old Oak Common in 1964, it would draw in far more enthusiasts and their families.
Most people who visit preserved railways are not trainspotters or enthusiasts by any measure, they're just people looking for a day out.
@richardharrold9736 to some extent I agree, but then show me the rake of bullied coaches to go with it? While I enjoy looking through books and seeing that weird 80s rail tour asthetic of the big 4 livery loco pulling a bunch of intercity/blue and gray MK1s it is a bit jarring to most. I think preserved railways, the bigger ones, and indeed mainline operators aim to present a sort of coordinated appearance these days because it looks professional and not thrown together to make the best of a bad situation.
You also have to appreciate that a lot of these are still kept by volunteers, volunteers at the end of the day have to keep it looking good, volunteers have to wash and clean it and frankly some colours just need a lot more scrubbing and maintainance to keep the loco looking presentable. Caledonian blue for example, is beautiful, but an absolute pain the posterior to keep looking nice from personal experience. BR green, black, these are comfy to keep nice relatively speaking. It's a business really, it has to present nicely to the public most of whom are not uhhh healthily enthusiastic, like you or I. We'd probably show up to see one if it was sprayed with dung but still running, they won't, best to make a good impression on them with a nice tidy looking railway than look a shambles and put them off
@richardharrold9736 even so, mk1s in green arent all *that* common. Not to mention the rest about keeping the thing looking good. And yeah there are smaller locos in these big 4 or earlier liveries but they're smaller and therefore less work to keep clean. Big spam can is not a small task to keep looking good
@richardharrold9736 yeah they're also dead easy to look filthy but thats another story.
2 out of the what, 6? Airsmoothed ones going normally do operate in southern colours, not bad really, could always be zero with the right donations made😆
The important lesson here:
(1) Don't paint heritage engines in war colours, they're boring, ugly, and not representative of their service. They were black out of necessity, not choice.
(2) Don't paint heritage engines in flashy colours that aren't even loosely reminiscent of what they wore in service.
(3) Exception to the above: BR Black is as bad as wartime black and should be purged from railway history as an affront to liveries.
Any colour is fine ...but please dont paint them rainbow ! 😀
I wonder what this is leading to? Are we paving the way for a more woke colour?
499 should be BR black. That’s the livery which suits it’s end of service condition. End of discussion. I shall cease to visit the railway if it comes out in green. No I won’t actually… I will visit but I will peer over the fence and enjoy it without paying.
good one !!
But it's being restored as the 1920's entered service condition. How will BR Black work with that?
Why not get involved then you get to have a your voice matter, otherwise sling yer hook 😅
@@Samstrainss how’s your model railway furry crossover documentary coming along
@@MoleculeMind7 great, so many furry sam fans...
Nobody in the real world even cares....
Should be in the colours it was In. B.R. thats how most of us remember them