Versus Series: Darth Zannah vs Oppo Rancisis
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- The release time for this relative to Jensaarai1's recent Darth Bane match up was a pure coincidence...not planned in anyway I assure you. So...how would Bane's apprentice fare against the powerful and exotic Oppo Rancisis? I present for you the Sorceress and the Serpent...Enjoy!
- บันเทิง
Technical issues prompted me to release this project ahead of a few others I've been working on. The release time for this relative to Jensaarai's recent Darth Bane match up was a pure coincidence...not planned in any way I assure you. So...how would Bane's apprentice fare against the powerful and exotic Oppo Rancisis? I present for you the Sorceress and the Serpent...Enjoy!
GreyJedi91 Hey, I think I speak for quite a few people when I say I have absolutely no problems what so ever with two versus videos coming out close to one another! Two videos from my favourite versus series creators is simply fantastic.
+Luke Murtagh Agreed.
GreyJedi91
Great video, really enjoyed this. I know it's highly speculative so you probably left it out, but I believe in DoE Cognus says she sees multiple futures between the fight for Zannah and Bane. I know she lists different times and planets, and still says the ending is basically 50/50 across the board. Do you think this might imply more offensive sorcery than what we saw, or the fact Zannah may be able to use dark side tendrils more skillfully than some seem to believe(not you personally, but I've seen quite a few videos that seem to imply she could only use them on a heavily steeped dark side planet)
Either way thanks for great video, looking forward to the Council Forcecast Tales of the Jedi discussion.
I saw Cognus' statement as more of a commentary on the fact that the two were so evenly matched that even her precognitive skills couldn't narrow down the most likely outcome. As far as Zannah's sorcery goes...I am of the opinion that she operates at her peak when she's able to draw on external dark side energies. She was shown to have developed her mental abilities to the point that she required very little in the way of prep time to unleash. She also transcended the need to perform complex hand gestures to unleash those spells like she had to in her earlier stages of development. So she definitely has the capacity to improve upon or grow stronger with certain aspects of Sith Sorcery.
Having said that, I do think that the more extreme uses of Sorcery she has been credited with (as well as many of the most prominent examples of Sorcery throughout the SW timeline in general) are either reliant on or strongly facilitated by external aid whether in the form of an environment steeped in the dark side (whether in the natural world like the cave on Dagobah, or manufactured by Dark Siders like the Star Forge) , or an artifact imbued with such energies such as the Muur Talisman, Exar Kun's amulet just to name a couple examples.
GreyJedi91 you and Jensaarai1 uploading within 2 days has made my week :D
"Darth Zannah and Oppo Rancisis, The Sorceress and The Serpent"
Me: Sounds like the fantasy movie of the week.
+Kristopher Creecy I wanted Mace Windu vs Oppo Rancisis. Far better matchup. But your comment is gold.
Well, at $0.00 the budget backing my video is FAR higher than that movie's would have been :)
I could see it as a book more like it
Why would it have been a "far better matchup?"
I had the same question actually...
Nice to see you taking Evans analysis in to context so often. It is nice to see you presenting different opinions on the same characters.
That's what kind of motivated me to talk about Oppo in the first place. I view Mundi and Fisto in a similar light. I thought Oppo's win was a little undeserved even though I think he's good competition for them. So my whole reason for using him was to offer a different perspective from Evan's. As time went on I found Zannah to be a more interesting opponent for him though. So here we are :)
Since you like to include a lot of obscure EU characters in your vs videos. I recommend you to use the blademaster Kas'im in a future video. Perhaps against Darth Maul?
@@thordgensec What about Kas’im vs Kao Cen Darach or Sora Bulq? Both were esteemed lightsaber instructors like the Sith Blademaster, and I think both are capable of posing a challenge for Kas’im based on the opponents they were shown dealing with - Darth Vindican & Darth Malgus for Darach, and Mace Windu & Quinlan Vos.
Finally someone who gives Zannah the credit she deserves. She is so underrated by so many people.
And while I agree with the verdict I wouldn't underestimate Oppo's endurance. He was extremely old and still capable of performing Battle Meditation for months + fighting and defeating a large group of infamous Jedi killers. It would still be a hard fight for Zannah.
I agree with that. As I tried to make clear. My point is not that Oppo's endurance sucks. It's that Zannah's endurance > Oppo's endurance.
I am not ashamed to admit that I kind of cheered when I saw this on my feed, your previous match-up with Zannah was my first ever match-up that I saw from you and it garnered me a great deal of respect for you as, Zannah is one of my personal favorite characters from the canon and I feel that your analysis with her tends to be rather spot on and un-biased. Same with Oppo, another EU character that tends to get the short end of the stick a lot, so I am glad to see you using them!
I knew the day would come when I see the mighty grey jedi return,well done as always👍👍👍👍👍👍
I wonder how old Rancisis would have lived to be had he not been killed. I mean the guy was twice his expected lifespan and could still hold his own in a fight. He clearly still had years left in him.
Yeah...it's one of the more amazing things about him really...I was surprised when I realized just how old he was relative to the standard of his species.
Amazing! A comment below mentioned "other" types of videos; Personally, I enjoyed your character profiles on Hett and Wyrlock immensely! I feel you are one of the only TH-camrs that does justice to the characters he covers. So... Needless to say really, I'd love to see more of those! Again, awesome work.
It is my intention to do more of those when I can. Thanks for the high praise! For the record I think your channel is a superior one as well. I haven't much use for the more popular and mainstream info channels. You've got some style and a pleasant presentation and visual aesthetic to your content. Very good stuff. Keep it up!
Sweet, I'll be looking forward to them. Haha thank you! Funny enough, before I started TH-cam, you, Evannova, and Jensaarai were the only Star Wars TH-camrs I knew, so I thought everyone made these super atmospheric, artsy, 3-month-project videos. So, thank *you* for inspiring me to use the style I do today!
Coincidentally, I am also working on a Bane video as we speak. But as I said before, I'll be looking forward to whatever you release next!
so have you checked out Antoine's channel yet?
That was a pretty great video! Now I'm kind of curious how a duel between Zannah and Old Ben Kenobi might go.
yeah me too. we discussed this a bit in Rob's comment
that actuallly wouldn't factor in as Zannah is a defensive fighter and doesn't attack people on high grounds so if Kenobi does get the high ground and says 'I got the high ground' Zannah would
A: stare at Kenobi while Kenobi waits for Zannah to jump, stalemate
B: Zannah uses the chance to use her force abilities (likely ineffective but prompting Kenobi to attack)
:l
Nah zannah will get slapped. Even though kenobi has a very dark past, he always learned to overcome and not let it consume him. On top of that he’s the better duelist so it’s a stomp
25:00
True. Thankyou. Only two Jedi have ever overcome Sheev's galaxy wide dark side nexus, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda.
Huh... well, that's a matchup I wasn't expecting but gladly enjoy nonetheless.
Eagerly awaiting the Ki-Adi Mundi analysis! You meld the philosophical and martial elements of characters incredibly well, it makes for very stimulating videos.
Thanks! I hope it won't disappoint :)
Ok my thoughts on this match up. It's not one I would have seen coming but then again you do make interesting contests. I am grateful to see Darth Zannah get some much needed merit for her skills with a lightsaber. Form III is not dedicated 100% to defence in a manner we all seem to think, as we see in the case of Obi-Wan Kenobi. I always wondered why Zannah didn't practice the less physically demanding forms like Makashi or Niman, or ones that required less physical strength like Ataru, to compensate her use of Soresu. I know lightsaber combat was not her typical go to option but to see her shift to a style Bane had not instructed her in would have been a welcome surprise to both Master and reader. But that's a debate for another time.
Because we may never know for certain, in canon Oppo Rancisis was to have a curved-hilt green lightsaber, I wondered whether he was going to be a practitioner of Form II. This is pure speculation but how do you think Rancisis would fair if he were to use Makashi in combat. My initial thoughts were that his serpentine body could suit the linear back and forth stabs and retreats associated with the Form. Think of a venomous snake striking its prey before quickly retreating while the poison takes effect; that's how I see Rancisis using Makashi, delivering a debilitating cut or stab, and waiting for the opponent to realise he's been hit before dropping to the ground.
Sorry that's two points unrelated to your video, although I would appreciate your thoughts on both matters.
From the beginning I was wondering how Rancisis would win this fight, he is good but I doubt anything he brings to the table (short of other Jedi to aid him) would cause a significant problem to Zannah. Had he gotten close enough to attempt malacia then she would have cut him down with her lightsaber. Likewise her Sith spells of madness may have done little to a Jedi Master like Oppo Rancisis who has seen the horrors of war, only a vision of a Jedi Purge might have stunned him long enough for Zannah to deliver a killing strike.
All in all a great match and a welcome surprise. Hope you have a great weekend and I look forward to your next video.
I've seen no one overestimate zannah's abilities due to tyhton and I feel like in your quest to not overrate her you underrated her
No, he didn’t. She is NOT underrated at all.
A Jensarrai1 and GrayJedi91 video back to back??? Coincidence? I think not! Another huge surprising matchup out of nowhere. As always, full thoughts after I fully watch.
As noted in the description and the comments...it IS a coincidence...I had no idea he was uploading a video around the same time...let alone one that featured Zannah's master!
Rob George
Lol. Remember what I said yesterday about how surprising these are?
+GreyJedi91 I'm sorry. I'm aware that this is a coincidence. I really wanted to do that joke.
+Lenny Slayer of Goldfish Overlord of Trail-Mix Holy shit your right. Just got a dozen of Krispy Kreme Doughnuts btw for 80 cents.
Rob George
Oh...I'm assuming that's decent. I have no idea what they are but it's pretty self explanatory. They're a U.S thing right?
Can your voice be an audio book option?
Haven't watched the fight yet though I'll say Zannah should take it before I watch it and that's what I think the outcome will be since GJ is pretty reasonable.
24:20 - Beautiful.
26:00 - Exactly. i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/force_11.png
39:23 - Great point. I'd never thought of that.
47:08 - Knew it. :)
:)
This was a interesting match and unexpected. While you didn't colab with Jensaarai to release a Bane/Zannah vids, it's still a cheeky coincidence. I found your observations of Zannah refreshing for me as I'm guilty of seeing her vs and being like, "Go home Zannah, you're drunk." I'm also glad with your tech issue you still managed to get this vs out at a nice time.
Cinematic and well written as always, and this was all the more fun since these are two characters i could stand to learn more about. Looking forward to what's next my friend
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed. Got a lot more planned
Holy shit somebody didn't use Zannah as a stand-in for a doormat. After the Bane book series I always wanted to know how Zannah ended and how soon after the events of the Bane books.
DAMN, this is a match I've always wanted to see and you are the perfect person to bring it to life. Here's hoping we see more with Oppo soon.
Also, thoughts on TCW Maul v. Aran Leneer? Sha Koon v. Darth Nihl? And just for kicks, Master Faye v. Darth Vectivus?
Glad to see you making videos. I've always enjoyed your analytic approach to the match ups, your appreciation of character narratives, and the awesome delivery. :)
Thank you :)
Absolutely fantastic, and I liked your analysis of Zannah. However, I do feel that it should be noted that during her duel on Tython, she was still yet to undergo a further 10 years of training, so she wasn't at her absolute apex at the time. Besides that, I loved this video.
Just out of interest, if you had done Ki-Adi Mundi Vs Oppo, who you you have declared the victor?
+Ki Adi Sandwich I want to say Oppo due to his biology and unique force abilities.Mundi is probably the superior duelist though.
*However, I do feel that it should be noted that during her duel on Tython, she was still yet to undergo a further 10 years of training, so she wasn't at her absolute apex at the time*
This is absolutely true. I agree with that. But because of the amount of controversy other match ups featuring Zannah have stirred up I have seen a LOT of people claim in comments that her skills were good enough to kill 3 of the 5 Jedi on Tython and that's why most of my commentary on her performance there was a detraction. The matter was much more complex than Zannah just being good enough with a lightsaber to kill that many Jedi. But you're right. Rule of Two is by no means her observable peak.
*Just out of interest, if you had done Ki-Adi Mundi Vs Oppo, who you you have declared the victor?*
Mundi actually. And I'm not just saying that to you because of your channel name ;)
GreyJedi91 Ah, I see.
I'm satisfied that somebody is giving Mundi the respect that he deserves. He is, after all, one of the greatest Jedi of his time.
In fact, do you agree with Evan's verdict for Kit Fisto Vs. Oppo?
I did not agree with his verdict on Kit Fisto vs Oppo Rancisis. I think it would be a close fight, but I thought Fisto deserved the win.
GreyJedi91 interesting...I agree.
I think that the tendril attack goes far beyond what Zannah is capable of in normal circumstances. Furthermore, I would go so far as to say that it isn't even something she truly created. Rather, it is an entity of its own that she simply released and convinced to attack Bane.
8:51 - FINALLY! I hear that word being said right!
I prefer not to say the word but to write or type it
finally, Zannah gets some love. great video, love your presentation.
who wants to fuck with the sith lady? she looks pretty nice if you erase the tattoos
You know, I find that I seriously enjoy these slightly more exotic and less well known match-ups. :) Zanna isn't quite my favorite Sith but I like her enough all the same, she's got a couple of glaring tactical holes in her skillset but she's all around a credible threat to almost anyone and she isn't a Sith Lord in the line of Bane by accident or chance. Oppo Rancisis is cool, he's an interesting character and I really like his powers and strategic ability; battle meditation, telepathy, and malacia (one of the lightside powers meant to disable, plus it's a cool concept if less applicable to force users).
Yeah I'm not that interested in the more main stream match ups. I like to feature more obscure or less extremely powerful characters because I think it makes for more interesting engagement. Thanks or watching :)
You do a good job at it, it was a pleasure to watch. :)
We miss you!!!
I'm so tired of Zannah being sold short. Zannah defeated a fully prepared Bane. For everyone saying her lightsaber skills are bad because she was overwhelmed, she only was ever overwhelmed by the best blade masters of her era and she still killed both while both were amped (although she was amped too when she faced Bane). She even stonewalled them for most of the duel until their overwhelming strength broke it. If you arent the size of Bane or bigger you won't beat Zannah in blade combat.
Also, I have to push back on what you said about Zannahs force push ability she blasted through Darth Banes force wall knocking him backwards. It wasn't employed in battle but you said force users could easily turn them away. Also in the part where you stated she can only call upon the tendrils using a nexus, you see that Zannah casting the spell doesnt take up a lot of time and the only reason Bane broke free of Zannahs fear spell was because he released an unexpected force wave knocking her back. If Zannahs spells could so easily be dispersed just by willing it flies in the face of the force sensitive that shes destroyed with it. Not many characters have Banes strength of will and lack of fear. No other force user could discern it fast enough or effectively like Bane because Bane knew it was coming. People tend to forget a ton of factors went into Bane breaking it which in most cases it would work on near every single person.
im 100% on your side im all over the comment section defending her. here is the of people she was pitted against- shaak ti vs zannah. i had her beating shaak ti (jen 1 says the opposite) - zannah vs master jin. master jin looses.( jen says the opposite) zannah vs tholme. zannah destroys him ( jen 1 says otherwise) vodoo siask bask vs zannah. zannah wins bass lacks stamina and is to slow for her and he has no lightsaber ( jen1 says the opposite) even in the team battles and fatal thrée ways i her have unbeaten. general greivous vs darth zannah.. zannah wins ( evan nova and grey jedi had the right outcome) zannah vs oppo rancis. zannah wins ( grey jedi has the right outcome.) zannah vs darth bane zannah wins
@@lukegreensaber7362 I was emailing Drew Karpyshyn and I asked him plainly "can Zannah use her dark side tendril spell with out the dark side nexus like on Ambria" and he stated yes. That means Zannah can whip out a OHKO spell on top of her others that can catch people as fast as Bane.
@@josephmoore5422 than at this point in time she is basically unbeatable with the exception of a few people that beat her a very few like a handful
she is also stronger than darth bane in the force and i laugh my balls of with tholme winning
jensaara1 has a general dislike for her in every video. and plays her ( yes u do jen yes u do) Greyjedi and evan nova are the only ones her truly evaluate her.
How about Darth Caedus vs. Luke Skywalker (Dark Empire): The Heirs of Lord Vader or Satele Shan/Darth Marr vs. Bastila Shan/Darth Malak?
Thanks for all you do!
Ok, I was not expecting it to go that route, but I can understand and appreciate this. I do think you undermined Rancisis's endurance, sue to his fatigue being largely due to committing months to almost nonstop battle meditation, but otherwise, I can respect your verdict.
Tanner Lowrie I would agree (as I mentioned in the video) that Oppo was already exhausted largely because of straining himself through continuous use of battle meditation at the time he fought the Anzati. But but because of the fact that he's so old and Zannah's entire style is meant to conserve energy, I think the same thing would happen to him regardless of whether he'd been using battle meditation or not. Even when he's fresh, there's just no way his stamina stacks up to hers in the long run. That's my contention.
You need more subscribers dude.
An interesting outcome, I did not expect Zannah to actually best the serpentine Jedi, but you do make some good points.
Is there enough material for anakin solo to get a video
Yeah, I agree with you in regards of Zannah's swordsplay - she's basically ancient dark-side Kenobi, waiting for her openings with Soresu and exploiting them (though she exploits them more with Force powers than style modification as she generally specializes in Force while Kenobi is Star Wars paladin archetype) - if Kenobi was trained by a sith he'd probably turn out similar to her.
If I walked into the Jedi Temple and saw Master Oppo with an alligator halfway down his throat with his snake tail fully extended on the flood I’d turn around and yell for Master Yoda & The Chosen One to come save me. Both of them, because overkill.
Damm Good video, and worthy “penances” for contribution to Zannah’s bad rep.
nah, her tats are pretty sweet and they totally work for her look.
You're right. This is exactly the kind of fight that Soresu, and by extension her combat approach, were designed for. She might even have a shot at Yoda by the same logic. Wear him down, outlast him, finish him off.
Darth Zannah, specializing in killing the elderly since 980 BBY!
I'm really glad that this came just out. I just finished reading the bane trilogy and from what I've seen zannah its so often considered irrelevant. I agree with your analysis but would like to suggest that although her dark side visions did not defeat bane they did cause him to collapse for at least a few seconds which she used to cast her tendrils. Also when used on another knighted Jedi in the previous book they were very effective though he was not a knight. Also she likely did not use her tendrils in the previous fight in the prison as she was tricked into focusing on banes missing saber. I don't think that the visions would necessarily have worked fully in this match up but may still have had some effect.
Loved it!
Glad to hear it!
Since Niman contains elements of all 5 previous forms including Ataru does it really make sense for Oppo to study Niman since he can't practice Ataru because of his physiology?
Or could he just practice Niman without any elements of Ataru?
Because if so Niman without the inclusion of Ataru would be my favourite form even as a human. I find Juyo and Ataru too lacking in defence and both are my least favourite forms as a result. Bane and Vader are both form 5 practitioners who improved their defence rather than supplementing it with Ataru and both were very successful.
I know Bane used Juyo but he at least held it in reserve.
I really enjoyed the video this may be one of the best match ups someone has come up with a for a while given how well it highlighted zannahs capabilites. You also made a really great point about why Bulq distracted Rancisis first and you've changed my mind on that.
I mostly agree with what you said about Zannahs sorcery, unfortunately for her she hasn't broken anyone of note with her sorcery so we can't really assume it would have a major effect on powerful force user unless they had some mental issues like Ventress. Though i do feel it is worth noting she did manage to stop bane momentarily with her mental attacks. Considering Pod bane effortlessly stopped kaans mental attacks(who was mentally persuading the brotherhood to do his bidding for years) it's safe to say anyone with some inner fears or other weaknesses they don't have complete control over is screwed if she uses her sorcery on them. Though her sorcery alone may not kill them it should stun them long enough for her to cut them down with a saber or kill with some other force ability. Its just most powerful force users don't have some crippling mental weakness she could exploit.
Though one minor nitpick is i don't think using Zannahs performance on Tython is fair considering she was nowhere near here prime at that point unless it is to show she is way more capable in her prime than she was then, just compare how she fared against a far weaker Bane in RoT compared to prime bane in DOE. It's like using ESB Lukes capabilities and limitations in a RotJ Luke match up.
*I really enjoyed the video this may be one of the best match ups someone has come up with a for a while given how well it highlighted Zannah's capabilities. You also made a really great point about why Bulq distracted Rancisis first and you've changed my mind on that.*
Thanks!
*I mostly agree with what you said about Zannahs sorcery, unfortunately for her she hasn't broken anyone of note with her sorcery so we can't really assume it would have a major effect on powerful force user unless they had some mental issues like Ventress. Though I do feel it is worth noting she did manage to stop bane momentarily with her mental attacks. Considering Pod bane effortlessly stopped Kaan's mental attacks(who was mentally persuading the brotherhood to do his bidding for years) it's safe to say anyone with some inner fears or other weaknesses they don't have complete control over is screwed if she uses her sorcery on them. Though her sorcery alone may not kill them it should stun them long enough for her to cut them down with a saber or kill with some other force ability. Its just most powerful force users don't have some crippling mental weakness she could exploit.*
I do think her abilities make her viable against most people...even most Jedi Knights. And certainly her mental powers eclipse Kaan's...at least on the level of how they apply to personal combat. He had skill with mass manipulation and battle mediation where she displayed no such prowess. But certainly I agree...her powers make her very viable. And while they weren't anywhere near enough to bring Bane down they did stop him in his tracks. But the thing is, Bane's a Sith. He draws power through passion, hate, rage, anger, jealousy, resentment etc. Her illusions can prey on visions of the past influenced by these emotions. I see Jedi Masters with strong Telepathic abilities of their own (Oppo Rancisis being a strong example) as being more viable than even Bane would be given their own focus on such Force abilities as well as their mental discipline.
*Though one minor nitpick is i don't think using Zannahs performance on Tython is fair considering she was nowhere near here prime at that point unless it is to show she is way more capable in her prime than she was then, just compare how she fared against a far weaker Bane in RoT compared to prime bane in DOE. It's like using ESB Lukes capabilities and limitations in a RotJ Luke match up*
I agree and disagree. I don't think it make sense to disregard he performance entirely on Tython. Bu of course you're right, it makes no sense to judge her solely on that. Still since she's only had about...4 or 5 serious fights (3 of which were brief and not really fair contests) we don't have much to draw from. And she allowed herself to be boxed on during that fight as well as in her fights with Bane. So it points to a pattern even though it's clear she progressed from RoT to DoE.
"I do think her abilities make her viable against most people...even most Jedi Knights. And certainly her mental powers eclipse Kaan's...at least on the level of how they apply to personal combat. He had skill with mass manipulation and battle mediation where she displayed no such prowess. But certainly I agree...her powers make her very viable. And while they weren't anywhere near enough to bring Bane down they did stop him in his tracks. But the thing is, Bane's a Sith. He draws power through passion, hate, rage, anger, jealousy, resentment etc. Her illusions can prey on visions of the past influenced by these emotions. I see Jedi Masters with strong Telepathic abilities of their own (Oppo Rancisis being a strong example) as being more viable than even Bane would be given their own focus on such Force abilities as well as their mental discipline."
I see your point but most Jedi don't lack any fear, hatred ect they simply suppress it and don't allow it to control them. The final story arc of clone wars showed even Yoda had some fears like what would happen to the Jedi order if they lost the war. I Legends and canon Obi Wan had romantic feelings for someone and hes generally considered the perfect example of what a Jedi should be. The sith feed of that fear but most don't allow it to control them. Sure some like Savage Oppress of Sora Bulq generally just acted on their emotions more than they should most fed off their hate, anger ect but didn't allow it to control them. Bane despite having complete control over his emotions , a massive amount of willpower and strength in the force was still momentarily stunned by her sorcery. In that same story arc Yoda admits nobody is immune to the lure of the dark side and most of the council agreed. That shows they all have vulnerabilities. The difference is many Jedi fear those weaknesses or like Ki Adi Mundi refuse to admit they exist making them all the more vulnerable when Zannah at the very least brings out some of those weaknesses or vulnerabilities. Of cause it varies from each jedi or sith but i don't believe most Jedi masters would be close to as capable of resisting Zannahs mental attacks as Bane was.
"I agree and disagree. I don't think it make sense to disregard he performance entirely on Tython. Bu of course you're right, it makes no sense to judge her solely on that. Still since she's only had about...4 or 5 serious fights (3 of which were brief and not really fair contests) we don't have much to draw from. And she allowed herself to be boxed on during that fight as well as in her fights with Bane. So it points to a pattern even though it's clear she progressed from RoT to DoE."
Yeah i understand why you used it, i just think it would have been worth mentioning around 33:50 that though she would have likely lost against Zarro Xaj that would not be the case has she been in her prime. Without saying that it could been seen like you are implying Zarro > DOE Zannah . Which though i know isnt the case some who aren't as familiar with you or the source matter could wrongfully assume. Though as i said it was just a minor nitpick.
*I see your point but most Jedi don't lack any fear, hatred ect they simply suppress it and don't allow it to control them. The final story arc of clone wars showed even Yoda had some fears like what would happen to the Jedi order if they lost the war. I Legends and canon Obi Wan had romantic feelings for someone and hes generally considered the perfect example of what a Jedi should be. The sith feed of that fear but most don't allow it to control them. Sure some like Savage Oppress of Sora Bulq generally just acted on their emotions more than they should most fed off their hate, anger ect but didn't allow it to control them. Bane despite having complete control over his emotions , a massive amount of willpower and strength in the force was still momentarily stunned by her sorcery. In that same story arc Yoda admits nobody is immune to the lure of the dark side and most of the council agreed. That shows they all have vulnerabilities. The difference is many Jedi fear those weaknesses or like Ki Adi Mundi refuse to admit they exist making them all the more vulnerable when Zannah at the very least brings out some of those weaknesses or vulnerabilities. Of cause it varies from each jedi or sith but i don't believe most Jedi masters would be close to as capable of resisting Zannahs mental attacks as Bane was.*
I don't think most Jedi Masters would be either. I do think Oppo is one of the relatively few who could/likely would be.
*Yeah i understand why you used it, i just think it would have been worth mentioning around **33:50** that though she would have likely lost against Zarro Xaj that would not be the case has she been in her prime. Without saying that it could been seen like you are implying Zarro > DOE Zannah . Which though i know isnt the case some who aren't as familiar with you or the source matter could wrongfully assume. Though as i said it was just a minor nitpick.*
Point taken. Even if I still think some of her mistakes during that fight carried over to her DoE incarnation, I see your meaning that others could wrongly assume/infer something I didn't mean to convey. I did give her credit for what she accomplished during that fight...but I suppose I could have been more clear.
Oppo has no willpower feats close to bane, he's also nowhere near as powerful with the force. The only way with regards to mental resistance that they are is with the fact both have control of their inner fears ect On top of that bane knows far more about sith sorcery and had been preparing for it for a while unlike Oppo
banethesithari He is more directly concerned with mental influence than Bane. his greatest strength in the force make me think he'd be able to compensate for what Zannah brings to the table. Even Mace knew magic was only an illusion. as did Yoda. the jedi of the clone wars may have lacked experience against the Sith. they did not entirely lack knowkedge of what they were capable of. Bane may have known exactly what Zannah would do. I believe his years of training with the Force and the access to the temples collection of forbidden Sith holocrons granted to high ranking jedi masters made it perfectly possible that Oppo was familiar with sorcery. I just don't buy into the idea that a Jedi consular of his stature would be helpless against illusions. He deals in mental influence himself. and while Bane may possess greater willpower I'm of the opinion more was required on his part. He had greater demons to face as it was and as a Sith he thrived on emotions and passions. as a Jedi master (a conservative one at that) Oppo would have had those better in check from the beginning. and months of continuous battle meditation is a solid willpower feat by my estimation. I think it balances out. I do believe he could eventually recognize and dispel the visions. you'll notice I never said he could easily though.
Welcome back!!! You have been missed!
OMFG GreyJedi91 you're still alive! Good to see you still make videos! :D
Well, this has been a thoroughly researched video.
At first, I thought Oppo Rancisis would take a slight majority in this fight. But it turns out Darth Zannah has had faced some of the best duelists in her time, making her ready for anything; she even barely dodged a lightsaber throw from Set Harth. While we don't know the full scope of her abilities after _Dynasty of Evil_, we can almost guarantee that she won't repeat the same mistakes in years past.
It's nice you've mentioned Sora Bulq's awareness of Rancisis' battle meditation. Hopefully, you'll consider doing another Versus video involving the co-creator of Vaapad. He's much smarter and more competent than you might think. I've done research of my own on the guy, so don't hesitate to ask for help.
One of my friends and I are putting together plans for another match up featuring Bulq in the near future. Feel free to contribute any info you'd like...much appreciated :)
Matt, considering that in your opinion Evan and Connor underestimated Zannah in the past, or Evan overestimated Oppo, would you agree with their verdicts such as Tholme beating her, or Oppo beating Fisto ?
Ah yes...the Jedi whose face gave me consistent nightmares until I was seven. Gotta love the design though. I think Zannah will take this. I'm not going to go into depth, but I have a strong feeling the fact that Zannah's tactic of tiring out the opponent will come into play because Oppo's old age has effected him in his fight with the Anzati.
yup
Good verdict. Applause
thank you, finally Zannah has got some love. don't get me wrong, i by no means think she is the greatest duelist or character, but i do feel as though she has been the victim of a lot of bad press with regards to her dueling skills. to be fair, although i have tried taking up this arguement with Antoine and Evan, im not a very good writer and have never said wot i meant very well. one last thing, i do believe this is the first one i've seen were an advantage has been so specific that it has only been applicable to a part of the duel, i kinda liked that, an advantage that disappear
I wonder how many Jedi Masters would have experienced being hungover though... ;)
Nice idea to show that Zannah can accomplish decisive feats based on her lightsaber combat skills. Are there others thinking the same as I do, that Zannah suffered from Banes simplification of lightsaber combat? Namely the strict focus on forms 3,5 and 7. So there was only form 3 to fit Zannah. How powerful could she have become if Bane not only encouraged her to use Sith sorcery unlike himself but also to use the lightsaber styles he dicarded. Namely using her economy of movement and pecision shown by the use of Soresu to integrate Makashi elements, using her athlete build for offensive Ataru moves and learning Niman to intergrate her already prefered use of force abilities more efficient into combat as well as preparing her better to face and use the unorthodox. Do you guys think it would have made her an even more powerful Sith? Or do you think it would have left her spread to thin considering lightsaber combat being no focus of hers anyway?
(Sorry if my English is a bit lacking accuracy :) )
i believe that you are underselling opporancis telepathy such as his battle meditation. you seem to be wether intentional or not down playing both of these characters force powers. i do agree with you saying that ooo is more of a support class of jedi and i agree with the verdict rather unfortunately because oppo is my preferred character, the way the the verdict came about i disagree with. love your videos and this was extremely still well done even though i heavily disagree with this analysis. You have done an amazing job with the material presented and lack there of.
Q&A: Sorry for the repost; this is a question I made on The Council Forcecast: Episode 25 - Rogue One Review (and later your who's GeryJedi91 2017), but I'm really interested in hearing your opinion on this, if not everyone else's in the council.
Ok, here is my question and is regarding Plagueis. (when you all matched Plagueis against all members of the High Council)
You all put Plagueis at stalemate in regards of force abilities/raw power with Yoda and Windu. We can generally agree that Sidius was on par if not a notch above Windu and Yoda himself.
The question is, how does Plageuis stacks against Sidius?
There is nothing I remember in the Luceno novel indicating that Sidius could overwhelm his master (disregarding GL saying that Sidius is the most powerful darksider ever, and saber skills aside because I do believe that in that regard we could agree that Sidius is the superior swordsman). If anything it seems deliberate that Sidius decided to take Plagueis through treachery instead of a fair duel because he was not sure he could be able to win against his master. At least that's the undertone that I get from the novel. Was it out of respect for Plagueis power that Sidius didn't want to chance it, or was it more out of mockery and he could have won anyway?
I'm asking this because if this is the case, it could be that you are selling Plagueis a little short against Windu/Yoda; I also believe that Plagueis gets too much of a bad rep as a duelist in general, similar to Dark Zannah.
PS. I really enjoy your character profile videos. You shouldn't be surprise with the loyal following you have acquired through the years with the quality of material you put out. In your case I do not think is about quantity, but quality that as earned you that special spot among the fan base.
For me what made me a fan was your video about the 10th year anniversary of KOTOR. I could truly identify with your attachment to the game because the game also occupies a special place in my heart.
GL with your future projects.
I would love for you to do a team battle with Anya kuro and luminara unduli vs shaak ti and adi gallia. I know that team battles take a lot of time, but just thought I'd suggest this fight. I would also like to see you use aayla secura, adi, and luminara at some point just to see how you view them.
Isaiah Torres I probably wouldn't do that particular team match but I'll promise to use all of those characters when I can.
This was very nice. I sometimes thought that the council forcecast members undersold a reigning dark lord of the Sith a little, compared to how I pictured her from the books.
As one of the Council Forcecast members...I agree with you.
Very interesting video indeed.
Love zannah and oppo lol! Good matchup!
Question, do you have any thoughts on Zannah's progression after the bane trilogy? Like do you think she was at her peak when she challenged Bane, or do you think given five, or ten or however many years later, she had reach higher levels of skill in both the manipulation of the force, and in lightsaber skill. I don't know if there's any material on that so i'm mostly asking opinion.
Generally that's what happens. But it's entirely questionable how far she would have progressed given the lack of any details on this. And given that Zannah believed she would never match Bane's own martial prowess, I'm disinclined to think that would have been a major element of her training regimen even after she became the master. Her strength in the Force likely grew...but how this would have expressed itself is entirely unknown and I, like you or anyone else couldn't do anything more than speculate I'm afraid.
I will say that her apprentice Cognus was already capable of fighting on the same level as Set Harth whom Zannah recognized as a highly capable fighter...and Set had formal training whereas Cognus did not. Personally I would expect Cognus to be much much more aggressive than Zannah as a duelist and her signature ability was similar to the power Force Suppression as it's expressed in various gaming materials. This may have made her into the perfect weapon to be used against Zannah as she may have developed her powers to the point that she could disrupt Zannah's ability to call upon her sorcery. Zannah's strength being more with the Force than with the blade, I do think Cognus would have likely seized the mantle of Dark Lord from Zannah more quickly than Zannah did from Bane. That's about as far as my speculation bout Zannah's life after Bane really goes.
Everything you say makes sense. And i hadn't really thought that much on cognus, but yeah i could see her strengths working very well to more quickly take the title of master. But who knows. I think you guys talked about this in a council forcecast but, i would be so interested to see an anthology with the rule of two sith. And i'd be interested to see a story about how cognus became master. But i guess that ship has sailed. Thanks for the reply :)
Wdym? Did she not disable the weapons master by directly using that exact spell
I wanna see a book on zannah and cognus
"Royally screwed" lol
+GreyJedi91 Sorry it took me this long to write up my thoughts/critiques comment. Today, you get a dozen Krispy Kreme doughnuts for 80 cents. So I had those with some tea as I fully watched this and wrote down my thoughts. Your matchup is fantastic. Its really threw me off at first yet it intrigued me greatly. There is something about your presentation style that just flows extremely well and tailors to your strengths. Whenever I do breakdowns of characters, I always try to take the balanced approach. Giving them credit where it is due, while addressing their shortcomings. Prior to this video, I believe I had set up Oppo really high and Zannath all over the place. Oppo was more about his physicality (4 armed snake man with an wizard's beard, why doesn't he get the edge?) but I forgot about Thisspian culture concerning their lower arms and their exact lifespan, making him ancient and lower arms not as viable. As for force abilities, I still think Zannath's spells aren't much of a big deal to Oppo due to his savant skills at Battle Meditation and Battlemind. The illusions wish to cloud your judgment while Battlemind clears and focuses your mind. But you are def correct about Malacia. In dueling, I previously thought of Zannath's tactical tunnel vision and lack of a offensive component gives her some issues tactically and just lets her stall, so she would never get an edge. But against someone like Oppo (whose stamina is pretty poor), she doesn't really need to go on the offensive. Oppo cant do anything to her and she just outlasts him. It goes back to how important skill sets match up. Thank you so much and as always, I look forward to what you have planned next (Darth Maladi or Krayt maybe?).
Rob It's spelled Malacia
seeing as you think Zannah's style is effective against offensive light-medium weights with poor stamina, do you think Zannah could defeat Old Ben Kenobi?
+Joshua Kei Thank you for the typo. Zannah probably could beat old ben due to a war of attrition. Both cant really do much to each other (her spells are pretty useless against Ben and she doesn't bust out the tk offensively that often despite her immense destructive potential). This impasse applies to dueling because we get the form 3 vs form 3 matchup. But her superior stamina should let her win via war of attrition. I actually see Zannah' style also being effective against over-zealous offensive heavy weights as well in a similar way to Kenobi. TCW Maul (in dueling at least, she probably would crumble against his Teras Kasi though), ROTS Anakin, Sora Bulq, etc. come to mind as opponents Zannah is well optimized for going up against. But if I put her up against Greivous...she is basically fucked.
yeah not sure about ROTS Anakin though. But I totally agree. so what do you think about Jensaarai's Zannah vs vids? (I personally disagree) it would be pretty interesting to see Zannah vs Old Ben though. both combatants staring at each other and assuming defensive postures until someone (probably Old Ben since he attacked Vader first) attacks
+Joshua Kei If she could take Bane's offensive, ROTS Anakin is not outside of her reach to stone wall. Sith sorcery would also tear apart Anakin's mind. I feel like Old Ben vs Zannah would just ignite their lightsabers, and stare at each other until someone makes a move. Old Ben probably does, Zannah defends, Ben retreats, and we are back to square one. I gave my thoughts on Jensarrai's Zannah vids.
ok thx. I can't seem to formulate an unbiased opinion on Zannah vs Anakin since it's Anakin but I can't argue otherwise as when I look at it Zannah does seem to have the necessary tools to take down Ani, so I'll just wait until later to make a decision. I can't find your comment in Darth Zannah vs Tholme
I think Zannah would use her spells if Ben doesn't do anything, and that would prompt Ben to do something. I guess an important deciding factor in this is if standing makes people tired and depletes Ben's stamina or not. If the situation on top does happen then it depends on who falls to dehydration/fatigue (people need to sleep, you know) first
Nice well thought out video. Definitely took me by surprise by the winner, as more often than not Zannah, within the vs series community, seems to wind up being the defeated one within a theorized fight.
Say are you still on fence about remaking your Exar Kun vs Revan fight that you made back in your days as YaraelPoof? or have you come to a decision?
How does Kao Cen Darach vs Kas'im sound to you? Or any of them vs Darth Maul?
The match up between Darach and Kas'im is a close one to call. Because one of them is a Jedi battle Master and the other is a Sith Weapons Master. Both have shown that they are quite formidable as duelists with Darach having fought off two fully realized Sith lords in Darth malgus and Lord Vindican and Kas'im not only teaching multiple Sith trainee's at the Sith academy but also nearly besting Darth Bane in a lightsaber duel. However this is partially do to the fact that Bane had little to no experience when going up against Duel Blade Fencing. And this is a tactic that wouldn't work against Darach because in his fight against Vindican and Malgus he himself used Duel Blade fencing quite effectively. For force abilities I'd say that they are on par with each other as neither of them has shown any force abilities above the standard. The big turning point in this fight for me would be in their physicality. And this is where the fight tips into the favor of Darach as his race that Zabrak's are noted for their physical hardiness/durability while Kas'im's species the Twi'leks have no such physical advantages. Basically while it would definitely be a close fight, Darach would get the win. And as for Darach or Kas'im vs Maul, I'd say that Maul would be able to defeat Kas'im but it would be difficult as all hell for him to overcome Darach. Though that fight would be a physical war in my opinion.
It's a fight that can easily swing either way, though I appreciate it being more then the Zannah casts one spell and it's over that so many of her fans seem to clamor for
I think it's pretty clearly in her favor of course. But yeah...I don't have much time for the argument that she could beat anyone on the council by clicking her fingers and driving them crazy.
Don't ask even if he put hoth above bane obi wan wont stand a chance
Zannah’s spells only work on the mentally ill and unstable lunatics with crippling depression. They wouldn’t work against a textbook Jedi who could see the spells clear and through
If the tendrils even touched Rancisis, i think it would be game over, as when they tapped Bane, he went into a seizure of pain or almost did!
I agree. To me I view them as a circumstantially viable power. Not one she can apply at the drop of a hat. But if she could, and Rancisis failed to dodge them, I do agree.
i could see if Zannah used Niman(if say another novel was made or hypothetically), she could develop a quicker ability of using sorcery. if she could pull what happened in RoT(Cyndra) for even a second, many fights she would be in could end quickly.
The problem with Zannah is her skillset comes off as a "support character" class and she has no viable direct offensive (like niman or force techniques) like even Obiwan whose known for mastering form 3 to its fullest has force techniques and lightsaber backup styles to switch to for offensive options
Do you not think Malacia could be used in a less overt manner against Zana? it has often been stated the fear Sith magic could be used in a less overt manner in order to gain an advantage even against master level opponents. Do you disagree?
I'm confused by your question. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you're talking about less overt Sith magic giving one an advantage. Could you please give a specific example so I understand what you're talking about? More than that I'm not sure what the functionality behind Sorcery and Malacia have to do with one another. My main point was I think Malacia is a useful power...but in my view it's most reliable against rank-and-file mundane opponents. In Oppo Rancisis vs. Kit Fisto, Evan pretty much gave Oppo the edge on the basis of Malacia since he felt that Kit Fisto would have "no possible means" of defending against it. But all the power does is influence a target's equilibrium and internal functions. I would expect most trained Force users of this level to be capable of staving off the effects by drawing upon the Force themselves. It might require some mental/physical exertion on their part...but that's about it as far as I would expect.
I apologise to everyone in the SW vs community for constantly pestering you with this suggestion but do you think your next vs video can be Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Malgus? I feel that Anakin takes it because he goes in to a fight on the offence, but unless you piss him off prior you get a very deadly and a calm deadly Anakin Skywalker, Malgus falls victim of going too crazy with his lightsaber moves when he gets heated and develops a sense of tunnel vision because of this, I personally feel this is why a level headed fighter like Obi Wan Kenobi or the afore mentioned Anakin Skywalker(he is usually level headed but he won't be unless you piss him off)would beat Malgus in an out and out fight to the death, though I am a BIG Anakin Skywalker fanboy so I will concede to bias. However this is Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Malgus.
Physicality = Anakin, Malgus is about 60 by the sacking of the Jedi temple and has a respirator which Anakin can easily exploit, they have comparable strength but Anakin is faster, they both have very high pain thresh holds as well so that is moot.
Use of the force = Equals, Anakin has more raw power yes and their variety with their power is comparable. Malgus is a very well rounded force user, male storm, push, pull, choke, lightning, saber throw, cheating death and I wouldn't put it past him that he can use basic mind tricks and all that, Anakin has comparable variety in his powers having all of that minus male storm and lightning, but he makes up for it with force scream, being able to override the will of the force itself, he could subdue both entities of the light AND dark sides of the force and he's able to move really heavy objects with ease(using this to also rag doll certain individuals namely Assaj Ventress and Barris Offee)like the separatist dreadnought in the comics he was able to redirect with no issue so they're equals in my eyes.
Duelling skills = Anakin, I feel that his showings are more impressive than Malgus as a pure lightsaber duelist as he bested THE master of makashi for his time in Count Dooku, his mentors hold him as only below Yoda and Mace Windu, he was duelling said makashi master as a fucking padawan and held out for longer than his master, bested the infamous Assaj Ventress as a bloody padawan although she was talented with killing Jedi masters and held her own against Mace bloody Windu and he was credited as being a natural warrior. Malgus isn't particularly bad but I feel his kills come from outlasting his adversaries or having them piss him off just before he engaged them increasing his strength, Satele and Cao Sen Darach = Vindican and Darach dying(the former gave Malgus a power boost as he wanted vengeance for his master), Satele Shan = Malgus won the fight, but he didn't kill her and he only won the duel when he used his force abilities on her when she was off guard and his most famous kill Ven Sallow = he did kill the Jedi, but moments prior he did witness his wife get harmed which fuelled his passion to kill the Jedi that did the deed and nearly killed both of them as Sallow almost stabbed him near the end of their duel so Malgus's victories in said duels is considerable, but for the reasons I have given his skills as a duelist have been largely over-exaggerated I feel.
Weaponry = Anakin, though this doesn't really matter all too much tbh but the extra blades on Malgus's lightsaber are cool looking but have no real purpose in battle, Anakin's weapon of choice is standard but because he has given it a different option for length of the blade, it could be helpful in pushing Malgus back.
The verdict:
Let's say this is more comparable to Malgus's duel with Sallow, but with Anakin in place of Sallow, I feel it would start with Malgus on the attack but Anakin would be able to hold off his assault and when Malgus attempts to kick Anakin in the face, Anakin grabs his foot with his right hand pushing him back into a pillar with the force, Malgus would be staggered momentarily as the 2 engage in a blade lock with Anakin on the offensive, Malgus would try taunting Anakin however this effort would backfire as Anakin broke off the lock and sent him flying backwards into a whole group of Sith with him in the temple and he was met with a huge pillar coming his way. This kills his whole group but not him as he evaded the pillar and immediately got back up to engage Skywalker, but the duel would swiftly end while they are charging one another as Malgus would have his blade above his head, but Anakin would be running low with his blue blade at his side while sliding underneath Malgus and splitting him in half, vertically.
And thus, I declare Anakin Skywalker, the chosen one of the force the victor.
Andrew Stokes Go away, nobody cares. *grumpy face.*
You clearly did enough to reply to me
This might be silly but what type of fight would there be between Darth zannah and obi won? I figured their both masters of form two. Great video and enjoyed the outcome
I kind of did that already. Darth Bane and Darth Zannah vs. Obi-wan Kenobi and Mace Windu. Bad quality video and audio compared to my recent projects but whatever. It was the first vs video to feature Bane, Zannah, or WIndu on this site. And while the production value is poor I still stand by my points in that project. It being a team match with 4 characters it's about an hour long though. Just to warn you.
GreyJedi91 I'll check it out, really enjoy your videos, I've read a lot of the novels but I like to here other points of view. Keep up the good work, you can tell that you do your research and you enjoy what you do! Thanks for the reply
I do agree with this outcome, however that does not mean I disagree with Jensaarai and EvanNova for dropping bricks on her. Zannah isn't weak, but the opponents who've defeated her simply have the necessary tools to trounce her based on the flaws she was specifically engineered to have.
I do question their decision to "drop bricks" on her if only because I think matches where that's the ostensible goal left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of her fans. It's possible to come off as biased and/or petty when that's your operating style. At least if you're not careful about how you state your case. And I don't think they always have been. By the same token, I went into this match to say that I felt Oppo was pretty overrated and Zannah underrated. I went in with a point to make. I had an agenda. But I also tried to paint both in their best light even if I had criticisms to make about them. I will say very honestly that I don't think Connor and Evan in particular always succeed in that regard...and certainly not only when it comes to Zannah.
Darth Zannah imho is a solid fighter who can win or lose any battle depending on who she is up against.
Against people of lesser minded willpower, all she needs is a moment and you're finished.
Against one of better skill and better mind she will loose in the long term.
Against one of better skill but lesser mind, it depends on the circumstances.
Against one of less skill and less mind it is an easy win for her.
She is a powerful user of TK, but she has not demonstrated the use of it in combat. Which really takes a toll on her power (in a fight). (You can break boards and bricks all day but, they don't hit back)Whats more to this is her lack of application against Jedi or Sith of any kind.
Im not saying she is weak, its just that she has not used it to a degree that I can back up.
You can force push clones and punks with guns all you want, but until I see a citation of where her godlike TK comes against a Jedi or Sith let me know.
Her spells of madness are also (severely) underrated, (after doing research on it, the move is pretty potent against even masters, especially if they have no experience against it) but once again it depends on the mind of the warrior she is up against as I said before.
Now I understand why her lightsaber skills are brushed aside. Take the UFC for example, if all you do is parry and block each strike or even take it with chin while not giving your own offence, the winner usually is given to the one with the most significant strikes.
Due to Zannah's form 3 specialization, she loses a lot of edge in combat against those equal or better.
At best she can beat Jedi Knights, Padawans, Sith Warriors (easily as their minds are so easy to mess with)The Inquisitors from Rebels and the cast of rebels with ease.
But against Masters and Lords of high standards its either struggle or buy time and hope her spells can destroy their minds.
This makes her a B list Sith. With strengths and weaknesses.
Hmm, I can definitely see where you are coming from and can see the logic behind the conclusion and your reason for wanting to clear up misconceptions around Zannah, but I don't agree with the verdict. Not because I think Oppo would be able to outfence her or anything, he's almost certain to lose a head-on fight, but because of Zannah's lacking skill in reading her opponent. Bane was able to outwit and misdirect her time and time again when he wasn't using the force to do so and I think that Oppo would be able to pull this off as well, baiting Zannah into thinking he was vulnerable from using up the last of his energy reserves before striking when her guard was at it's weakest; I don't see him accomplishing anything outside of that, but I think that he could at least pull that off. As fighters, I think Zannah has Oppo beat, hands down, but that his tactical supremacy would give him the likely victory in this case, even if only marginal.
Aside from that, loved the video and was interesting to see a more moderate take on these two characters.
Darth Zannah vs Kit Fisto, Wolf Sazen, Shado Vao, Darth Malgus, Darth Nihl, Plo Koon, Obi Wan Kenobi or Cade Skywalker
My response to Darth Zannah vs. Oppo Rancisis
Or, why I believe Greyjedi91 is mistaken here
Disclaimer:
This is NOT a general criticism of Greyjedi or his content. This is simply my criticism of his portrayal of Oppo Rancisis in his latest Versus Series episode.
I divided this response into sections based on specific points Greyjedi made that I wish to contend. I will title each accordingly.
Point 1: Oppo's Old Age
In his physicality analysis, Greyjedi makes the claim that Oppo Rancisis's extreme old age sets an incredibly low upper limit to his stamina. At first glance, this seems a reasonable point to make--the guy is more than twice as old as most venerable Thisspiassians. This would likely put Oppo within a few years of death, almost certainly. However, there are two refutations I offer to this point. The first is a simple comparison to another Jedi on death's door, that being Master Yoda. While it is true that Yoda's stamina was fading during the Clone Wars, he was not incapable of fighting in large-scale battles for several minutes on end--indeed, the fact that he did not tire at Rugosa, Ilum, or Coruscant to name a few suggests his well of stamina was still decent. Seeing as Oppo was in a relatively similar age group, and neither specifically focused on frontline combat, and both had similar Constitution scores (which were both above average), it is reasonable to assume he could hold down a fight for several minutes at least without tiring significantly. While this is mere comparative speculation, I do have a more concrete example--Oppo's feats of stamina. One of the things Greyjedi handwaves during his analysis is Oppo being tired by MONTHS of nonstop Battle Meditation prior to being put into a fight, and even then stomping a group of Anzati Master Assassins (which he rather absurdly calls "foot soldiers" later on). This did put him on his last "legs", but he was already exhausted prior to the engagement, meaning to draw a conclusion on Oppo's stamina from this fight is removing the fight from its context, a form of the fallacy known as cherrypicking. Thus, while age is a factor for Rancisis, it is not necessarily as much of a game-breaker as Greyjedi makes it out to be.
Point 2: Lower Arm Strength
Another point of contention I have with Greyjedi is his assertion that Oppo Rancisis's lower arms have atrophied due to disuse, and would thus not be a factor. I have three arguments against this. The first is that he could augment his limbs with the Force, making the point moot. The second is the fact that lower arms are used by upper-class Thisspiassians in unarmed combat, and would thus retain a use. This would mean that lower arm strength would still serve a purpose for them. The third is his Jedi training, which would make his lower arms stronger due to them being worked out more.
Point 3: Malacia
Greyjedi makes the claim that while Oppo Rancisis mastered Malacia, it would not work on Force-users, citing that a Force Barrier could stop it. This assertion is potentially true, but is heavily lacking in terms of evidence. Greyjedi argues that because Malacia affects the body, it is practically useless against people with Force Barriers. However, this ignores the fact that powers with similar effects (Force Stun, Force Slow, and Force Wound) have been used successfully on people with Force Shields. Moreover, Oppo is stated as the reigning master of the power, meaning his skill in it would be extremely high. If we were talking about Plo Koon's Malacia, Greyjedi would have a case. Here, however, what he says is contrary to the evidence provided, and the fact that he went into a tangent about Evannova instead of providing any is telling.
Point 4: Oppo's use of Ataru
On the onset of the Lightsaber section, Greyjedi dismisses the idea that Oppo Rancisis uses Ataru, on the basis that he does not use the acrobatics inherent to the form. Here, Greyjedi has missed the point entirely. While it is true that Oppo cannot use acrobatics due to his serpentine physiology, acrobatics are only one aspect of Ataru. The most important aspect of Ataru, the core on which it is based, is turning one's physical body into a weapon. And here is where Oppo truly shines in lightsaber combat. He can simulate acrobatic maneuvers by simply moving his tail around, and he has a huge number of unarmed combat options available to him, which he uses regularly. Acrobatics in Ataru are not the end goal of the style, they are a means by which one can use their body as a weapon. Oppo doesn't need acrobatics in his Ataru, so he doesn't use them. His body can already perform most actions Ataru users do with them.
Point 5: The Bulq Feat
I agree with Greyjedi that Sora Bulq was not intimidated by Oppo Rancisis's skill with the lightsaber. The proper word is "wary". While it is true that Rancisis could have summoned help telepathically to him, he would not be able to focus enough on that if engaged with such a berserker as Bulq. Telepathy takes time and focus, things Oppo would not be able to relegate there during a duel. This means Bulq was uncertain of winning a fight with Oppo (a foe with superior physicality, Force abilities, and tactics) to the point where he actually got smart and pulled a trick on him. Also worthy of note is Oppo's exhaustion, and Bulq's knowing this. This means that even on Oppo's worst day, Sora Bulq was uncertain of his ability to beat him in a straight-up fight. That is not him being intimidated, it is him being wary.
Point 6: Where are the tactics?
Possibly the most egregious mistake Greyjedi made in his analysis of Oppo Rancisis is his not analyzing the tactical mind of Oppo Rancisis. Oppo is a Jedi tactician, coming up with strategies and plans is second nature to him, and part of why he is such a dangerous opponent to face. This is kind of like doing an analysis of Exar Kun and not mentioning his saberstaff, or doing an analysis of Mace Windu and barely touching upon Vaapad.
Conclusion:
Greyjedi91 has committed a number of errors in his most recent Versus Series video that have led to a distorted picture of Oppo Rancisis's skill set.
Point 1: *it is reasonable to assume he could hold down a fight for several minutes at least without tiring significantly* Who said he was incapable of doing this? I certainly did not. What my cumulative points build up to is that he's very old and the cap on his stamina is undoubtedly lower than Zannah's given the combined facts that she is MUCH younger and her entire fighting style is built around conserving her energy. I don't think Oppo's a tired usesless old codger. But compared to Zannah? His stamina is DEFINITELY inferior.
*One of the things Greyjedi handwaves during his analysis is Oppo being tired by MONTHS of nonstop Battle Meditation prior to being put into a fight, and even then stomping a group of Anzati Master Assassins which he rather absurdly calls "foot soldiers" later on* Never called them foot soldiers... How did I hand-wave the impact of his Battle Meditation? Its acknowledged more than once in the video that he did this. But it took everything he had and I wouldn't call it a stomp. He was visibly exhausted and had sustained several cuts...a respectable feat to be sure...doesn't change my assessment of his limitations.
*This did put him on his last "legs", but he was already exhausted prior to the engagement, meaning to draw a conclusion on Oppo's stamina from this fight is removing the fight from its context, a form of the fallacy known as cherrypicking*
Do you really think he's a match for the likes of Bane and Zannah? Beyond an early fight scenario I just can't see that being the case. Now are you claiming that the only reason he was tired was because of Battle Meditation? Eh, maybe you're correct but I have my reservations about this. But I don't think it matters much because he's still very old and Force-Augmentation can only take you so far for so long. You even acknowledged that this was the case for Yoda himself... Zannah being just as capable of augmenting herself will still have the stamina advantage. You will notice that I gave Oppo the physical edge because of his combined traits. But his old age limits the duration that this advantage will apply during the fight. You haven't said anything to challenge this claim and so I'm not exactly sure what the point of contention here is at all.
Point 2: *The third is his Jedi training, which would make his lower arms stronger due to them being worked out more* Stronger than your average Thisspiassian upper class citizen yes. But that's all that can be said with certainty. Plus he's old and certainly has grown somewhat infirm over the years. As you have conceded he was nearly double the age of a venerable one of his kind. Plus he's working at a deficit anyway. It's a species-wide trait and only those of generations accustomed to working with their hands are born without this. He's a member of royalty and thus would have been descended from a line that suffers from the limitation. Augmentation can only take you so far and it would be of...questionable use and specious value during a lightsaber duel for him to spend his Force energies on such a thing. Especially as Zannah's style is so defensive. My main reason for bringing the limitation up in the first place is because of how drastically Evan thought it would apply during combat with other Force wielders as he stated in his Fisto video...I disagree with this notion of his.
3: *This assertion is potentially true, but is heavily lacking in terms of evidence* And Evan's assertion that powerful Jedi Masters such as Kit Fisto would have “no possible way of defending against” this power has heaps of evidence to back it up? I think not.
*Here, however, what he says is contrary to the evidence provided, and the fact that he went into a tangent about Evannova instead of providing any is telling* What evidence? And how is it anymore a tangent than your very response to my own video? I took issue with what he said and stated why...not sure what you're calling me out for.
Point 4: you made a much bigger deal of this than I did. All I said was I didn't consider Ataru as major an element of his training as Shii-cho and Niman likely did. I went as far as to say that he no doubt had a great amount of exposure to Ataru through Yoda/Yaddle...I stand firm on Ataru being the most minor element of his training...though of course none of this is established. The very idea that he practiced Ataru, Niman, and Shii-cho is ALL based on conjecture and I helped Evan come to that conclusion. After taking his physique into account, a full and unrestricted practice of Ataru is actually unfeasible for him. He could use a retooled variant or simply the fundamentals, but he wouldn't have mastered it in the traditional fashion.
Point 5: Mace and Bulq both sensed the events of Asajj's duel with the remaining Jedi on Ruul while they were in the middle of a fight. I see no reason why a consummate telepath like Oppo couldn't have summoned help during a lull in combat. And again, it would have left Sora outnumbered 6-7 to one. In any case, I'm not saying Oppo couldn't challenge Bulq. I said he could give him a run for his money in the video. But I have no doubt that Bulq was a superior martial artist in the long-run.
Point 6: *Where are the tactics? Possibly the most egregious mistake Greyjedi made in his analysis of Oppo Rancisis is his not analyzing the tactical mind of Oppo Rancisis*
Egregious is it? Then why don't you tell me how exactly you'd envision the tactics being implemented. There is a huge difference between being a master swordsman and a tactician or strategist in charge of the war-effort. That much should be obvious. Exar Kun's saber staff and Mace Windu's fighting form are both directly applicable in a lightsaber duel and have a huge influence on the way they fight. Oppo's renown is not as a field-agent or front-lines commander. It's as a strategist who devised complex defense/attack strategies. If you can come up with a reason/example of something he's done that you think applies to a lightsaber fight then I invite you to name them now. For the moment, I don't see how they'd apply. You accused me of hand-waving a number of things that I think I acknowledged for all that they were worth. I comfortably admit to hand-waving the tactics (even though I acknowledged that aspect of his character several times) during the verdict segment because I see no reason why that would factor into a victory in a contest like this one.
I thought zannah would but by the skin of teeth great video by the way
it is still funny that bane's and zannah's are so close to each other lol
everyone likes to have the battle with the battle meditated jedi be a terrible showing on her part but everyone forgets that battle meditation demoralizes and confuses the opponent while the allies are bolstered and and enhanced. also while zannah was only shown able on conjuring the dark tendrils on ambria, she clearly knew the spell and considered it pertinent enough to memorize and later use on ambria. i believe that ambria made it more affective to use but not that she can’t use it on the fly. i think she can but not to completely disintegrate living flesh at the same speed and decimation as shown on ambria. after all this spell was like ventress accidentally/unconsciously raising the gungans this was purposeful insinuating that zannah was capable of doing it with out the nexus but using the nexus was easier.
First, thanks for the kind words. I dont really understand where the disagreements lie though. I actually DID give her credit for the fact she was fighting someone who had a battlemeditation amp bolstering him. That was an overall good showing. My issue is when people say she killed 3 jedi on tython without explaining how in context. She didn't defeat them in dueling, which a lot of fans like to misrepresent.
As for the point concerning her prior knowledge of the spell versus the impact of the nexus...with respect, even if you're entirely correct (and to be honest I don't really agree with your case) I still don't see what the problem is with regard to analysis of the fight itself. The most relevant point is whether or not she can bring the same devastation to the battlefield as she did on Ambria. I personally doubt this as I've explained. And just as an example, Bane knew many spells and sith rituals but most were beyond his ability. Knowledge of a technique isn't the same as true ability. If she doesn't require a nexus to use the power on a lower level, and the power is normally massively weaker...then that still diminishes the effect of what was seen doesn't it? At the end the day, I don't really see the difference your distinction would make to her general performance level.
As for Oppo's battle meditation being underplayed...may I ask how I underplayed it? I explained very clearly why I think he's slightly overrated by others, but I never said he wasn't a great master. Also its not a combative ability that can be relied on in a one on one fight. He can't enter a battle meditation in the middle of a melee with a Sith Master.
I'm sorry if this is rude but where is Sharad Hett?
In progress. I mention technical difficulties in my pinned comment where I explain why I released this match ahead of schedule. Technical difficulties concern the Sharad Hett match as well as a few others. Still forthcoming. I assure you
Please ask Jensaarai1 to do a Darth Sion vs Kaox Krul vid. If he doesn't do it you should
Zannah only beat Bane because she waited for him to grow old, and because he was weakened by his time in that prison.
He was only in his mid-40s. Not that old. And he wasnt weakened in the prison. Not permanently at any rate.
idk man, i do feel that oppa's physique is nuanced enough to push that early advantage most if not every time.
Oppo Rancicis will always be an extremely underrated Jedi.
Just one disagreement, I don't think Zannah's telekenetic prowess should have factored into who took the Force Abilities category. All the power in the world is of no use if you have no inclination to use it, and she never uses it, despite the fact that it's a pretty good counter attack to employ when facing a superior duelist. Overall I think that category should be a draw. But I agree with the rest of the video and the end result, Rancisis just wouldn't have the combative longevity to outlast Zannah, or the martial skill to penetrate her defenses, because despite all her flaws and deficiencies, she has impressive defensive capabilities. On another note, It'd be great to see A'Sharad Hett in more videos. Kryatt is one of my favorite Sith Lords, and my favorite Star Wars combatant, but there aren't too many characters that make for interesting match ups. But Hett on the other hand isn't nearly so overpowered and would be interesting to see in future videos. Love the content, keep it coming.
I have a match up planned for A'sharad. But it's his padawan state. And I also have plans for his dad. So it'll be a while before I used ROTS era A'sharad (which is what I'm imagining you want) but if I did use that version of the character...who would you want to see him up against? I'm open to suggestions.
I'd be glad to see him used at any point of his life, he's a very underused character given how much lore there is surrounding him. As for potential match ups for his ROTS iteration (which is exactly what I was referring to), I'd say anyone around upper-tier Knights to lower tier Masters, as that's about where I gauge his skill at that point (mainly based on his showings against Kenobi on Tatooine). So characters like ROTS Aayla Secura or TPM Darth Maul might be good fits, Maybe Juhani or ROTS K'kruhk. I don't want to be too specific about who he should face because my knowledge of his combative capabilities are mainly based on his time as a Sith Lord, so I don't consider myself an accurate judge of his relative standing at the time of the Jedi Purge, the above is just my best guess at a ballpark.
Lmao, yea I don’t get that either, she did nothing on Tython.. Bane was the SOLE reason they took the victory there. He literally bailed her out like 3 separate times. And she only got “kills” when Bane was already locked in with them about to kill them himself in a saber fight; and she just blindsided them and stabbed them in the back. She was in NO way about to take on Raskta Lsu by herself. I mean she got completely lucky when she finally did kill Bane in the end anyway, he wasn’t even going all out against her, he was taunting her, and she caught him off guard with a crazy spell, which was ONLY possible because of their location. That’s it. Which she ONLY pulled off because she KNEW she wasn’t going to be able to defeat him straight up; she ruined the ideal of the Rule of Two right off the bat. Zannah is beyond overrated.
And Sora Bulq was not “afraid” of Oppo. Bulq was one of the greatest swordmasters of all time. Able to go toe to toe with Windu and match him blade to blade; Windu only dispatched him with a timely force push catching him off guard... He would shred Oppo in an all-out fight. He just chose the quickest easiest way to kill him. Just like in real life. Assassins don’t opt to pull their sword and slice you to death in a fight, that’s too noisy, they’d rather get the drop on you and cut you down before you even know what happened. It was no more than that concept taking place.
Have you considered Count Dooku and Plo Koon?
I really wish you'd used Mundi.
I will. Just not against Oppo.
I look forward to that.
+GreyJedi91 Would love to see you tackle other topics besides Versus series vids even though I love your versus series. If I can make a recommendation I'd like to recommend Exar Kun vs. Darth Krayt, Darth Wyyrlok III vs. Count Dooku, Oppo Rancisis vs. Saba Sebatyne, Quinlan Vos vs. Cade Skywalker, or Tholme vs. Jolee Bindo. Keep up the good work and may the force be with you.
Ummm...so what other topics? Because your suggestions are all versus match-ups
You could do book reviews of SW books.Just a thought.
+GreyJedi91 You could do Star Wars Legends theories, continue your character profiles, philosophy profiles between Jedi, Sith, and the Potentium, you could do a psychology profile series of characters and what mental problems they may or may not, or cover the other forms of combat in the Star Wars Universe like Teras Kasi, Echani Martial Arts, Tae-Jitsu, Sokan, Dun Moch, or Trakata.
@3:27 I need to see the source for this panel. Master Skywalker? What is this a fan fiction xD
Y u talking bout zannah in her prime but not oppo in his prime?
Paulie Tonro the same reason nobody talks about Yoda in his physical prime. It's an unobserved version of the character and is therefore mysterious. He would have been more physically robust...but we have no way of knowing what his levels of skill with the lightsaber or Force abilities would have been during that part of his life.
who are these people that say zannah is overpowered...shes only won one of these vs series things...none of u people that make these videos think she has any skill...u'd even say she'd lose to darth bane if she hadn't been the one who killed him..im surprised someone hasn't said she couldn't beat bane and just ignore the fact she did
Are you implying the only people who voice their opinions are the ones who make the videos? Just read the comments on any video or forum...you'll see plenty of opinions...
I was just saying the people who make the vs vids always characterize zannah as having little skill or just incapable of winning any vs matches...I never said anything bout fans and their opinions...I don't personally have any thoughts on zannah but she must have some ability to have killed bane...how she'd do against anyone else idk but bane was pretty powerful...even though he beat her twice she still escaped
oh yeah and zannah is snoak lol
RaccoonMega just Answering your question was all. I think a lot of folks have commented on other videos and forums with inflated ideas about Zannah's performance levels. I would agree that several videos featuring her have underrated her. it's that simple really.
i completely agree on the verdict however I think you are VERY wrong on your opinion on sora vs oppo, as I believe Oppo would almost surely overpower and beat Sora in a 1v1 fight
I agree. If Aayla was capable of staying out of Bulq's Force sense, a middling Knight, Oppo would've probably had no issue using Malacia on him to catch him off guard. Bulq is not a dedicated telepath, as good as he might have been to mask his true intentions at first, he's no Zannah.
@GreyJedi91 make a Darth Zannah VS Grandmaster Satele Shan!!!! Just lightsabers
bro could you do characters story instead of versus series , please ?
29:26 what is that beautiful music?
It's actually called "Beautiful" by Future World Music
Awesome thanks.
Oppo overcomes Zannah spells!? it will be a done deal. Besides, Zannah is only a soresu specialist. She has no attack sequences, agility is her best defense. Oppo wouldn't play the aggressor unless Zannah does. Not only that, Oppo should be aware of his own weaknesses despite his old age. So, he wouldn't play into Zannah game that easily. Zannah has the youth advantage, but, Oppo has the battle experience and wisdom to overcome Zannah maneuvers and advances. Zannah makes a fatal mistake, she's dead.
Brett Jackson I agree
Can you please do Malak vs Dooku or Malak vs Kao Cen Darach. He is so underrated
I have a Malak video in the works. Sorry, it's not one of those ones though. It's one I just like on a thematic level.
Thats awesome. Malak is one of my favourite sith, and he doesnt get enough credit IMO
Lord Hoth vs Obi Wan Kenobi. Let's make it happen
I'm not that much of a Lord Hoth fan...try Connor or Evan. One of them might give that one a go.