Yeah, right? Trust me bro, try it yourself. Grow a beard if you can(i cannot), do a certain hair style, where a certain style... then change it up. Shave, get the "y u grew dat hair" response haircut, dress nicer(or worse, take your pick). Man, it's awesome. Lmao.
I know it's probably bad of me to say because he's obviously more healthy now. But he looks kinda creepy now. A lot older and more greasy, maybe, I don't know. Can't put my finger on it. Some people look better heavier, like Drew Carry.
Those having difficulty finding dot. Try the smaller compact red dot vs bigger window. It trains you to draw straight to dot vs trying to find the dot. Less room for looking.
I agree with the "iron purists," but it's just preference. I like them, and it's what I'm used to; but, if I am using a dot, I DO NOT like/want/need any co-witness at all. It's an optic or irons, never both.
I still prefer to just run irons on my carry gun (a preference that I feel even more confident about after Ben Stoeger recently revealed that he carries a G17 with just irons), but I do believe there's tremendous value in having a dedicated pistol for dot training. I think it's helpful at first to remove the irons so that you can just train with the dot without the "distraction" of irons. There's also the option of installing all-black irons, but I'd still begin the dot journey without irons installed.
Did he happen to give a reason? If he uses dots when competition shooting, it would seem like a safe assumption would be that it has nothing to do with performance... My guess would be that he just doesn't think he needs the slightly extra bulk?
@@deschain1910He didn't give a reason, but I know he's also talked about still liking some of the aspects of irons that are unique to irons shooting. He doesn't seem to be much of a gearhead and is usually happy to have other people work on his guns. I get the sense that, like Vogel, he wouldn't even bother with dots much if he didn't have a need for teaching people who run them, which seems to be the majority of people who take his classes. And Vogel definitely carries a Glock with just irons too. Lol. But as John pointed out, these guys are in the top 0.001% of shooters. My position at this point is that dots will definitely make you a better shooter, and even if you don't want to carry with one, there are only pluses to training with one! (Daniel Horner says that he trains with a dot to make his irons shooting that much better!)
@@ASPextraThanks for the reply, John! I think the biggest reason I don't carry a dot is because of my concerns about snagging. I know of some stories where it's happened, including one story that was a self-defense shooting (Colion Noir interviewed a guy who had that experience in a self-defense situation, which led to the guy taking his dot off his carry gun). I would actually love your thoughts about dots as a potential snag point. Maybe a video on the subject?
Thank you for the thoughtful advice. You and I had a lengthy discussion in comments one time on this same topic and ultimately you told me I needed more training. I pointed out that for this method of finding irons then dot, finding the dot though the irons would take more time than just running irons. Your point is this is the wrong method, one reason being eye racing This video is a perfect rebuttal and I agree with you now and you are right 👍 An additional point to cement your thesis is finding your irons at night is unlikely, you need to train to find dot by muscle memory. Eye racing/focusing time was an excellent point that I have noticed taking longer as i age. Thanks
"An additional point to cement your thesis is finding your irons at night is unlikely" Which always begs the question: If it is too dark to see your sights, how can you see and identify your target?
The idea of having to refocus between target and sights is why I prefer a laser over a slide-mounted optic. As an old guy who wears glasses, I CANNOT switch focus; it's either a clear target and fuzzy iron sights, or (without glasses) a fuzzy target and clear sights. If I'm wearing my glasses, the slide-mounted optic's red dot looks like a twinkling asterisk (*) instead of a proper dot. A laser dot, on the other hand, solves the problem by placing the dot LITERALLY on the target, not superimposed in front of the target, so there's only one focal point--the target. Also, the fact that there are so many videos and classes on using a red dot tells me that it's not a naturally intuitive aiming device, especially compared to iron sights.
I've found that it's only non-intuitive for people who are ALREADY trained to use irons. Simply focusing on the target and overlaying the dot is more intuitive to people than aligning iron sights and messing with where you're focusing. It was hard to tell from your comment, but in case it isn't clear you're supposed to be completely target-focused when using an optic and overlay the dot on your target. You never actually focus on the optic. It sounds like your problem is unrelated to that though... I don't know anything about how optics interact with glasses...
@@ASPextracorrect. And beyond that 10-ish yard point is where I have transitioned to my irons. I trust my irons and having something on top of the slide blocking them does not work for me.
When I got my first red dot pistol I did that at first, using my irons to find the dot during my first range session with it. But I moved away from it because in my head it didn't make sense to use irons to find the dot. If I was just gonna use irons to aim, why did I get an optic in the first place? So I trained myself proper drawstroke and presentation, figuring that would be making the most use of the optic.
I forgot about keeping my focus on the target during training. I’ve been struggling to break my shots in a reasonable amount of time when drawing. I’m almost to the point where I can’t read even when I pull what I’m reading out to arm’s distance. Anyway, I’m gonna practice this today in my dry fire session. Thank you!!!
I agree that using irons to find the dot is not for the vast majority - certainly not me. I have learned after shooting a dot for a couple years, that the dot is slower for the vast majority of self defense situations. It is just too difficult to CONSISTENTLY find the dot on target. At 3 - 5 yards, all you need to do is line up the frame and shoot - unless you need an accurate head shot. (With that method I can consistently shoot 0.9 to 1.2. Using a dot the time jumps to 1.2 to 1.5. An increase I'm not happy with.) Similarly, if the target is "in the window" or front sight being seen, it works fine within 10 yards. For me, using the dot slightly increases time and sometimes accuracy. Note: I'm getting old (near 80) and no longer shoot 1000 rounds per month, so I have slowed and notice a decline.
I think you have some inconsistency in your statement… Slower at 3-5 yards? If you line up the ‘frame’ the n shoot, why can’t you do the same with a dot?
@@ASPextra Just stating the facts as shown on my timer. If I have to worry about the dot at 3 - 5, it is slower and no more accurate for me. As you have so well said, the timer never lies.
I’m not doubting your data. I wondering about your process… why are you ‘worrying’ about your dot at that distance but not ‘worrying’ about your irons?
@@ASPextra My mind can very quickly center the frame, it is automatic. But that little spot varies a great deal for me (often times not showing up) and becomes a distraction unless my draw is perfect. I learned to have a very fast draw and accurate shot on target, but that means not raising the gun to the shoulder early. So the dot seems to require the draw to be an "L" up then out to see the dot on the target "early." Has been frustrating for me and puzzled a couple instructors to see the difference. Maybe just a "training scar" from something that worked great but not as well with the dot. From some other comments, this may be more common for some of us. But I'm still trying.
I’m 55 years old and super proficient with iron sights on a rifle or pistol. I mean this is how I learned to shoot. This means I’ve been doing it for around 40 years. I heard it can be difficult to switch to a red dot for us older shooters. This was not my experience. 30 minutes of practice draws and a couple of trips to the range and I can shoot a pistol farther and faster than I thought possible. The shake to awake feature makes it functional also. Change is not always bad. I’m also set up so I can still use my irons if needed.
With a bit of practice you get measurably more accurate with the RDS…At first it’s slows you down a bit…which will happen with learning any new skill or a new tool. But once you get the muscle memory and sight picture automation in place (same thing you learned to do with iron sights back in the day…front sight focus, rear site alignment, target acquisition…it’s actually WAY more complex to learn than red dot sights). Once you gain a certain level of expertise with RDS you get faster and more accurate and measurably better than with iron sights…and at longer ranges the accuracy is SUBSTANTIALLY better than irons…Not really debatable, just a really simple fact you will see after a few weeks of good practice. I keep the irons on in case I need them and do turn off the RDS for a few shots each time I go to the range just so I can pick up the irons through the dark RDS…keeping that sight picture familiar to me.
I have never used an optic (red dot), but have always used quality laser devices mounted to a rail. IMHO, the laser keeps me focused on the target, and I visualize that a red dot optic would disrupt and impede my focus on that target in a fast-moving situation. My laser devices are switched by a grip button (Crimson Trace on a S&W snubby), or a continuity sensor (Armalaser FLX strip), or a side-switch (Crimson Trace RailMaster) (not as quick or "thought-free" as the others), on my semi-autos,. I would enjoy reading educated opinions commenting on the pros and cons of optic vs laser, or your experience..... Also, seems like a top-mounted optic would make CC uncomfortable or impractical, especially for pocket or appendix carry. Thx!
I appendix carry with an optic and it doesn't cause any issues. Probably just depends on the gun and optic. With red dots, you're supposed to just be target focused, like with a laser. I suppose if you're easily distracted by the frame it could be a problem?
I have astigmatism. I wear glasses that correct my distance , but messes up my near sight. Without my glasses I seen near perfect. But with glasses i cant see iron sights good enough. So I use a red dot. The dot is clearer with glasses , but can still use it fine , with or without glasses. I do struggle from time to time , finding the dot quickly. But im working on it.....
G'day, I did a lot of Rabbit shootihg and plinking as a teenager. (mostly .22LR Semi Auto rifle) I found that a muscle memory developed to the level that target accusition through the scope became instant most of the time, Based in that depending on the conditions from time to time I would fire a shot (ofter 2 or 3) without actually seeing through the scope. The number of times I hit a rabbit while doing this was way higher than dumb luck. Do you find that people who shoot a lot (5k+ per year) tend to have better "time to first hit" stats?
@@ASPextra agreed. I developed fast target acquistion through shear repatition rather than purposfull training. I could also often see rabbits sooner, giving me another advantage. I also suspect I developed some bad habbits that became harder to fix. Also self defence and Handguns are not realy things here in Australia , so some "Training" scenarios do not apply here.
Not if you never front site focused when using irons. I've always focused on the threat, blurry front site works great. But, a dot is better! Stop teaching to look at the freaking gun bro. Even with irons
Who is this guy? And where is John?
Oh, you didn’t know John was a shapeshifter?
#Lizzidperson
Yeah, right? Trust me bro, try it yourself. Grow a beard if you can(i cannot), do a certain hair style, where a certain style... then change it up. Shave, get the "y u grew dat hair" response haircut, dress nicer(or worse, take your pick). Man, it's awesome. Lmao.
Where?! Lmao. Wear. I meant wear.
Yeah I never subscribed to this skinny guy
Looking good man!
Appreciate it!
Wow!! You look great man!!!
I know it's probably bad of me to say because he's obviously more healthy now. But he looks kinda creepy now. A lot older and more greasy, maybe, I don't know. Can't put my finger on it. Some people look better heavier, like Drew Carry.
I appreciate that!
Those having difficulty finding dot. Try the smaller compact red dot vs bigger window. It trains you to draw straight to dot vs trying to find the dot. Less room for looking.
I agree with the "iron purists," but it's just preference. I like them, and it's what I'm used to; but, if I am using a dot, I DO NOT like/want/need any co-witness at all. It's an optic or irons, never both.
+1 for fantastic use of the english language.
@nicewhenearnedrudemostlyel489 much appreciated!
Looking like Joaquin phoenix 😂😂
I still prefer to just run irons on my carry gun (a preference that I feel even more confident about after Ben Stoeger recently revealed that he carries a G17 with just irons), but I do believe there's tremendous value in having a dedicated pistol for dot training. I think it's helpful at first to remove the irons so that you can just train with the dot without the "distraction" of irons. There's also the option of installing all-black irons, but I'd still begin the dot journey without irons installed.
Just remember, Ben Stoeger is in the top 0.001% of pistol shooters. Him doing it doesn't make it a good idea for almost anyone.
Did he happen to give a reason?
If he uses dots when competition shooting, it would seem like a safe assumption would be that it has nothing to do with performance...
My guess would be that he just doesn't think he needs the slightly extra bulk?
@@deschain1910He didn't give a reason, but I know he's also talked about still liking some of the aspects of irons that are unique to irons shooting. He doesn't seem to be much of a gearhead and is usually happy to have other people work on his guns. I get the sense that, like Vogel, he wouldn't even bother with dots much if he didn't have a need for teaching people who run them, which seems to be the majority of people who take his classes. And Vogel definitely carries a Glock with just irons too. Lol.
But as John pointed out, these guys are in the top 0.001% of shooters. My position at this point is that dots will definitely make you a better shooter, and even if you don't want to carry with one, there are only pluses to training with one! (Daniel Horner says that he trains with a dot to make his irons shooting that much better!)
@@ASPextraThanks for the reply, John! I think the biggest reason I don't carry a dot is because of my concerns about snagging. I know of some stories where it's happened, including one story that was a self-defense shooting (Colion Noir interviewed a guy who had that experience in a self-defense situation, which led to the guy taking his dot off his carry gun). I would actually love your thoughts about dots as a potential snag point. Maybe a video on the subject?
I think that's vastly overstated as a problem.
Thank you for the thoughtful advice. You and I had a lengthy discussion in comments one time on this same topic and ultimately you told me I needed more training. I pointed out that for this method of finding irons then dot, finding the dot though the irons would take more time than just running irons.
Your point is this is the wrong method, one reason being eye racing
This video is a perfect rebuttal and I agree with you now and you are right 👍
An additional point to cement your thesis is finding your irons at night is unlikely, you need to train to find dot by muscle memory. Eye racing/focusing time was an excellent point that I have noticed taking longer as i age. Thanks
"An additional point to cement your thesis is finding your irons at night is unlikely"
Which always begs the question: If it is too dark to see your sights, how can you see and identify your target?
Every time you say stuff like it doesnt mean your babies ugly etc always makes me chuckle
Your mama ain’t fat! :)
The idea of having to refocus between target and sights is why I prefer a laser over a slide-mounted optic. As an old guy who wears glasses, I CANNOT switch focus; it's either a clear target and fuzzy iron sights, or (without glasses) a fuzzy target and clear sights. If I'm wearing my glasses, the slide-mounted optic's red dot looks like a twinkling asterisk (*) instead of a proper dot. A laser dot, on the other hand, solves the problem by placing the dot LITERALLY on the target, not superimposed in front of the target, so there's only one focal point--the target. Also, the fact that there are so many videos and classes on using a red dot tells me that it's not a naturally intuitive aiming device, especially compared to iron sights.
I think it's only fuzzy if you're looking at the optic.
And the problem is that a laser is VERY difficult to use past 10 yards.
I've found that it's only non-intuitive for people who are ALREADY trained to use irons. Simply focusing on the target and overlaying the dot is more intuitive to people than aligning iron sights and messing with where you're focusing.
It was hard to tell from your comment, but in case it isn't clear you're supposed to be completely target-focused when using an optic and overlay the dot on your target. You never actually focus on the optic.
It sounds like your problem is unrelated to that though...
I don't know anything about how optics interact with glasses...
@@ASPextracorrect. And beyond that 10-ish yard point is where I have transitioned to my irons. I trust my irons and having something on top of the slide blocking them does not work for me.
Lookin like a Chad with the long hair & clean shave
Thank you! And tell HK to correct their flyer telling us to do the opposite.
Good advice. Thank you.
Love your pistol so much i just bought myself my first HK vp9sk
When I got my first red dot pistol I did that at first, using my irons to find the dot during my first range session with it. But I moved away from it because in my head it didn't make sense to use irons to find the dot. If I was just gonna use irons to aim, why did I get an optic in the first place? So I trained myself proper drawstroke and presentation, figuring that would be making the most use of the optic.
I forgot about keeping my focus on the target during training. I’ve been struggling to break my shots in a reasonable amount of time when drawing. I’m almost to the point where I can’t read even when I pull what I’m reading out to arm’s distance. Anyway, I’m gonna practice this today in my dry fire session. Thank you!!!
3:49 presbyopia - lol, learning about eye biology on ASP haha. Never heard that and had to look it up, thanks!
Sorry, nerd alert! :)
Great insights!
I agree that using irons to find the dot is not for the vast majority - certainly not me. I have learned after shooting a dot for a couple years, that the dot is slower for the vast majority of self defense situations. It is just too difficult to CONSISTENTLY find the dot on target. At 3 - 5 yards, all you need to do is line up the frame and shoot - unless you need an accurate head shot. (With that method I can consistently shoot 0.9 to 1.2. Using a dot the time jumps to 1.2 to 1.5. An increase I'm not happy with.)
Similarly, if the target is "in the window" or front sight being seen, it works fine within 10 yards. For me, using the dot slightly increases time and sometimes accuracy.
Note: I'm getting old (near 80) and no longer shoot 1000 rounds per month, so I have slowed and notice a decline.
I think you have some inconsistency in your statement… Slower at 3-5 yards? If you line up the ‘frame’ the n shoot, why can’t you do the same with a dot?
@@ASPextra Just stating the facts as shown on my timer. If I have to worry about the dot at 3 - 5, it is slower and no more accurate for me. As you have so well said, the timer never lies.
I’m not doubting your data. I wondering about your process… why are you ‘worrying’ about your dot at that distance but not ‘worrying’ about your irons?
@@ASPextra My mind can very quickly center the frame, it is automatic. But that little spot varies a great deal for me (often times not showing up) and becomes a distraction unless my draw is perfect. I learned to have a very fast draw and accurate shot on target, but that means not raising the gun to the shoulder early. So the dot seems to require the draw to be an "L" up then out to see the dot on the target "early." Has been frustrating for me and puzzled a couple instructors to see the difference. Maybe just a "training scar" from something that worked great but not as well with the dot. From some other comments, this may be more common for some of us. But I'm still trying.
There are a couple videos on the channel, David, addressing our easiest method for reliably presenting the dot. Maybe they might help!
I will just stick to iron sights... thanks.
Agreed
"I'll just stick to horse and buggy" 🙄👌
The outhouse is good enough for you! ;) nah, just joking, irons are fine just quaint.
I’m 55 years old and super proficient with iron sights on a rifle or pistol. I mean this is how I learned to shoot. This means I’ve been doing it for around 40 years. I heard it can be difficult to switch to a red dot for us older shooters. This was not my experience. 30 minutes of practice draws and a couple of trips to the range and I can shoot a pistol farther and faster than I thought possible. The shake to awake feature makes it functional also. Change is not always bad. I’m also set up so I can still use my irons if needed.
With a bit of practice you get measurably more accurate with the RDS…At first it’s slows you down a bit…which will happen with learning any new skill or a new tool. But once you get the muscle memory and sight picture automation in place (same thing you learned to do with iron sights back in the day…front sight focus, rear site alignment, target acquisition…it’s actually WAY more complex to learn than red dot sights). Once you gain a certain level of expertise with RDS you get faster and more accurate and measurably better than with iron sights…and at longer ranges the accuracy is SUBSTANTIALLY better than irons…Not really debatable, just a really simple fact you will see after a few weeks of good practice. I keep the irons on in case I need them and do turn off the RDS for a few shots each time I go to the range just so I can pick up the irons through the dark RDS…keeping that sight picture familiar to me.
IRON SIGHTS NEVER TURN OFF !!!
Well, neither do most pistol mounted optics.
That hair is so freaking solid!!!! Anything you put in it?? Do share please! Cheers mate, stay blessed!
It's naturally this curly. I use some argan oil and curl cream and that's about it.
Holy shit John! I haven't watch a video in a while and damn youve lost a ton of weight. Well done!
th-cam.com/video/-_bwFzw7Wis/w-d-xo.htmlsi=GNUr6MjcOZU8c7VG
Whoa this guy is ripped now! Looks like dollar tree matthew mconahay good work
Um...thanks? I guess?
I have never used an optic (red dot), but have always used quality laser devices mounted to a rail. IMHO, the laser keeps me focused on the target, and I visualize that a red dot optic would disrupt and impede my focus on that target in a fast-moving situation. My laser devices are switched by a grip button (Crimson Trace on a S&W snubby), or a continuity sensor (Armalaser FLX strip), or a side-switch (Crimson Trace RailMaster) (not as quick or "thought-free" as the others), on my semi-autos,. I would enjoy reading educated opinions commenting on the pros and cons of optic vs laser, or your experience..... Also, seems like a top-mounted optic would make CC uncomfortable or impractical, especially for pocket or appendix carry. Thx!
I appendix carry with an optic and it doesn't cause any issues. Probably just depends on the gun and optic.
With red dots, you're supposed to just be target focused, like with a laser. I suppose if you're easily distracted by the frame it could be a problem?
I have astigmatism. I wear glasses that correct my distance , but messes up my near sight. Without my glasses I seen near perfect. But with glasses i cant see iron sights good enough. So I use a red dot. The dot is clearer with glasses , but can still use it fine , with or without glasses. I do struggle from time to time , finding the dot quickly. But im working on it.....
Keep at it! Stay focused on the target.
It's weird to hear a voice that I'm familiar with coming from a dude that I don't recognize!
G'day, I did a lot of Rabbit shootihg and plinking as a teenager. (mostly .22LR Semi Auto rifle) I found that a muscle memory developed to the level that target accusition through the scope became instant most of the time, Based in that depending on the conditions from time to time I would fire a shot (ofter 2 or 3) without actually seeing through the scope. The number of times I hit a rabbit while doing this was way higher than dumb luck. Do you find that people who shoot a lot (5k+ per year) tend to have better "time to first hit" stats?
"Shoot a lot" is less helpful than "shoot to the purpose of building speed" IME.
@@ASPextra agreed. I developed fast target acquistion through shear repatition rather than purposfull training. I could also often see rabbits sooner, giving me another advantage. I also suspect I developed some bad habbits that became harder to fix. Also self defence and Handguns are not realy things here in Australia , so some "Training" scenarios do not apply here.
John why do you always look like you just finished running a 5k when you record these lol
Well, I do work out every morning…
I do NOT use my Iron sights to find my Red Dot..!!
How ridiculous...!!
I use my Red Dot to find my Iron sights!
And then I realize they were right there on my gun the whole time!
Don’t use a dot. Make the gun bulky.
lol
John what did you say about the magazine mod to allow you to rack the slide? I would like that for practice with the Laser Academy. Thanks
Oh it’s just a mag block. Comes with a barrel block. It’s a little plastic half round insert.
i dont blame you for showing off the hard-won defined jawline, but i like the stubble on you.
Not if you never front site focused when using irons.
I've always focused on the threat, blurry front site works great. But, a dot is better!
Stop teaching to look at the freaking gun bro. Even with irons
Come on man. I’m addressing BY FAR the most taught method for the last 30+ years of irons.
@@ASPextraRoger that.
I shoot better without a red dot.
GYUN AHMISH!