I'm in a 2015 Tesla model S and I've currently got 307,000 on the clock and my degradation is currently 14.63% with capacity at 69.58% I'm still happy with it , it's an every day WORKING car and I still enjoy it
Interesting video rich, that's by far the most extensive dataset of this type I've seen, especially one with all the data generated from a consistent method. Great work!
Hi Richard, I bought my BMW i3 new in 2019. It’s now at just over 50k miles, I’ve not had the traction battery tested, but I’ve not noticed any loss of range. Yes, range is much lower in the cold months, and much better in the warm months, but it was like that from day one. This is my first BEV and despite being nervous about my choice at the time, I’m very pleased with my purchase and have no regrets.
I doubt that the Aviloo flash test would be entirely reliable with the i3 or a probe with app and dongle from what we know. The full expensive Aviloo driving test with data logger might tell you something useful but is it worth it? I'm doing half the mileage you are on mine.
We bought an i3 with 120 Ah battery a few months ago from 2019 with 59.000 km's and an Aviloo score of 97. The seller was specialized in i3's and our was in the number-range of the other cars for the flash test. My wife gets a bit more than 200 km in the current weather (0 degrees Celcius), with a mix of local and motorway travel
7:10 Probably fair to point out that if Kia and Hyundai are buffering their battery capacity to the degree that you're still getting 100% of rated capacity years after purchase, that's a GOOD thing. The consumer can effectively count on the nominal capacity they were sold on at new, for many years to come because the company over-delivered.
Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test it's real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
@@rizulli See ? This is what I am talking about. And you are not the only one in this case. I heard many users doing tests and concluding the same. So it''s not just reading the battery data that shows this, real life tests also confirm it.
Richard - this is a fantastic gold mine of data . 2 mins into the video - really great! On behalf of the BEV industry and owners - existing and prospective thanks for doing this. Awesome.
The graph LFP vs non-LFP is suggesting that at a certain point the RWD (LFP) will have more actual range than a LR Tesla (non-LFP). It's probably 200k miles/320k km, but there might be an actual cross over point that will become a topic once these cars are getting much older.
Great video and very informative. Great points made in comments about battery age so I have emailed you to book in my Audi E-Tron 55 (2019) and on 80k miles, with you so we can see the battery condition on a 6 year old with that mileage to add to your data set. I have not noticed any degradation (other than weather related).
Watched a recent chat between Plug Life TV's - Dr Euan Mcturk (consultant battery electrochemist) and a company rep (Altelium) which provides extended warranties for vehicles out of battery warranty. It was interesting because your findings were indeed valid, but time played an important variable in battery degradation. This also reflects the older battery chemistries, and the data suggests that newer chemistries will laat longer than the older ones are doing, but even the older ones are lasting a lot longer than was envisaged, to the consternation of battery material recyclers, who still haven't been able to really get upto speed yet.
@@JohnnyMotel99 They'll also say that the batteries are full of rare and expensive materials, immediately followed by they end up in landfill; logic has stepped out of the room!
Richard, when comparing Tesla LFP with NMC it might be a good idea to only include cars that are post 2021 because batteries will degrade with age as well as use so having NMC cars that are older than 2021 in the data will distort the result.
Since the LFP are short range and the NMCs* are long range then graphing it by number of charge cycles might be interesting too, not sure if the Teslas report that to the customer - certainly with mine you'd need the dealer diagnostic tools. *or are they LCO chemistry like the early Model S?
Similar data on carla dealer from sweden webpage. Also Bjorn Nyland mentioned them in his Aviloo interview about two years ago. Wanted to do a similar excel on carla myself, but never managed to find time. I scrolled those results many times gathering empirical conclusions. One of the conclusions is that VW/Audi batteries degrade mostly with age. Tesla degrade both with age and km driven. While Kia/Hyundai keep up great, both with age and km driven.
I also get that Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe for some. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test is real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
I use an OBDC2 plug and Car Scanner app on my 71reg Ioniq5. At c.30K mileage it showed 95% battery capacity. The car went to the dealership at 34K and their report was 94.5% capacity. So the car seems to be following the same curve as the LMC Teslas.
Fabulous video. I would caution against drawing too many conclusions when their number of data points is low. But hopefully that will improve in the future. It makes me wonder if electric cars should have their battery capacity recorded during MOT tests!
People often think that LFP batteries are not 'damaged' by being charged to 100% but this is not true. The only reason LFP batteries need to be regularly charged to 100% is to maintain accurate SOC charge indication. This is because LFP batteries have a very flat voltage curve across SOC so battery voltage can't be used to calculate SOC. LFP batteries meter current in and out to calculate SOC and this drifts. However LFP does have a voltage kick up at 100% SOC so by charging to 100% the SOC baseline can be reset.
Two Model 3s in our family. Oldest a 3 year old M3P with 46000km. 9% degradation from Panasonic pack (Shanghai car). Newest 2 year old M3LR with 50000km and 5% degradation from the LG pack. The Panasonic pack in the older car is a known problem child for degradation (i will need to look up the part number again). Obviously some different between packs but calender aging may have had more impact on this particular example.
Just wanted to say how much I enjoy your content. In terms of your graphs and what they tell you. On the all car graph you should drop the Kia / Hyundai as they are outliers that will corrupt the average. Also with the spread of results being so far above and below the average, you need to go for a Modal average rather than Mean average if you want to estimate what you can expect as the norm. In terms of Tesla it would be interesting to map charging habits v the scatter pattern. Eg does long range fast charged cars come below the norm etc. Another point of interest would be any variance in the condition figure driven by the battery temp at the time it was measured. Cheers again for the interesting content. 😎
Fascinating information as ever. I suspect the thing that affects battery pack longevity the most is the complicated electronic device that sits between the steering wheel and the driver seat.
I own a BMW iX1, and after 30,000 miles, the battery shows zero degradation. BMW truly knows how to build batteries and develop software for them. The system for preconditioning the battery for fast charging, along with the ability to activate it manually in the car or through the app, is top-notch.
Great Video. We have done a few SoH tests so far with our Autel Maxisys Ultra EV. So far the EGMP cars seem to be holding up the best had one yesterday 100% SoH at 70000km. My Mini is showing 96% at 25000km
@@simplygregsterev eGMP show 100% SOH long after the true usable capacity has started to reduce, it's bad data. There is a thread somewhere on the international Ioniq forums where Ioniq 5 owners were measuring degradation in real measured capacity. I seem to remember it was similar to what you see with other brands.
Great project Richard. Something that you may want to consider in your data (and I'm super surprised its not mentioned much in degradation discussions) is battery calendar ageing. Lithium batteries degrade while sitting doing nothing (at different rates depending on SOC, temperature and chemistry). I get the impression (and some lab reports back this up), that calendar ageing becomes more of a dominant factor than cycling for LFP batteries (unless the battery clocks up a lot of cycles in a short time). It would be super interesting to look at battery degradation of cars over time (in years) rather than millage.
I think an important factor to consider in this equation would be battery age. I'd be curious to see degradation on a 5 year-old battery with 20.000 miles on it, for example. I think time matters even more than mileage when it comes to batteries.
Very interesting project, Richard, thanks for sharing. 👍 I would suggest looking at the capacity not only by mileage but also by the age of the battery, as it seems to be another parameter to consider.
Very interesting results. I was surprised at the Tesla Model 3 LFP degradation at 30k miles being greater than the non LFP. I can understand the SR non LFP having higher degradation than the LR, as it's a smaller battery and charged more frequently to achieve the same overall mileage. It would be interesting to compare the charging habits between the LFP and non-LFP cars, to see if LFP cars were charged to 100% more often. Perhaps as more data becomes available a clearer picture will emerge.
yeahp... Tesla recommend charging lfp to 100... but this although helps BMS to calibrate ( more difficult on lfp than NMC due to small voltage variation ) it is proven that in any current lithium based battery, keeping it for long at 100 will degrade it faster... so people may be degrading more the batteries by following manufacturers indications. would really like to have more information but it is still scarce
@@freddykrueger79Yep used to top mine up every few days. Until that recent report which said it will degraded just as much as lithium ion. Now charge it to full when it gets down to 20%. The stated range has now gone up.
I had Kia for 4 years,i was still getting the same range at the end as when i bought (45k miles at the end). Whether it's using a buffer or not, all the same to me.
Yep, Kia and Hyundai are so good compared with others that it is hard to believe. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test it's real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
Our 70k km, 3 year old Kia eSoul hasn't lost a single km in range so far. It has a big buffer but I suspect it also has a very good battery management system, it sounds like a jet taking off when fast charging. 15kwh/100km average during that period, with about 50% of its total kms made on the motorway. Brilliant car, its been completely flawless.
What's missing is the age of the cars as age is also a factor in battery life. I would also be interested to see how much better battery heating/cooling effects it (e.g. model 3 pre/post heat pump).
Good stuff. So much unfounded FUD around. Battery also degrades over time as well as use, however many of the very long distance (100k+) ones probably decent age as well ?
Thanks Richard, really interesting to see this and agree with the overall conclusion. Although being able attach a number to battery degradation feels like a big step forward, I wondered if there need to be a few more caveats around what exactly the Aviloo flash test is measuring, and what the numbers mean. For example I see on their website that it's only on the (longer) premium test that they actually calculate a state of health, which implies that there are some limitations to the flash test.. And it's not clear to me whether some of the measurements are relative (I.e. relative to a benchmark based on scores from similar models) or absolute. Maybe you could do a follow-up video interviewing someone from Aviloo?
My Gen 1 MG ZS is just 5 years & 30,000 miles old. Battery SOH is at 98% as reported by dealer at recent MOT. Only maintenance has been a set of wiper blades. Still on original tyres, brake pads & discs.
My early UK Model 3 SR+, now 5+ years is only charged to 80% for most use as I need to stop for a comfort break by then. As long as it can do 80% charge I won't really notice the difference except on a couple of journeys a year when I'll need to rethink my pit-stops. Going down to single figure mileage doesn't worry me as the superchargers are so reliable.
Same. My 2019 SR+ is at 63k now and based on fully charged mileage shown now vs when delivered I estimate 7% deg, but it’s immaterial to my use of the car.
Hi, great video, thanks for sharing. From the limited tests you have done so far, how would you say the Peugeot's/ Corsa's compare to the others you have tested? I want an ev but am totally obsessed and paranoid about the battery health! 😅
Thanks, hopefully the myth of the battery needing replacing after a few years is fading, along with all the other myths. Yes there will be an occasional battery failure and and occasional fire, but less than ICE car engine failure and fires.
As with all statistics, the result depends on how the subjects (batteries in this case) are selected. Ideally for accurate data you would need a sample that is not dependent on the owner deciding to get the battery tested.
Interesting data but I am curious whether batteries degrade due to time more than mileage. My 2019 Model 3 SR+ has done 105,000kms (about 70,000 miles) and has lost about 15% of its original range. I have spoken to fellow owners that have done more than double the miles but have very similar loss of range.
Cars using LFP currently have smaller batteries than the higher spec versions of the same model that don't use LFP, so will need more charge/discharge cycles to cover the same miles. Examples include MG4, Tesla 3 & Y. It is the number of cycles that is usually judged to cause degradation, together with age.
A really informative video which shows the longevity of EVs. Are you able to compare the smart options once the vehicles go out of warranty? My understanding is that the Kia’s in the UK might lose access to Kia Connect after 7 years which means that battery pre-conditioning and remote heating would stop as an example.
I think there was some confusion in the LFP M3 2021/22 model years as there was two different battery pack sizes: 55 + 60KW, and these were misplotted giving erroneously high degradation for the 55kw packs.
Another interesting EV video Richard. I see you are wearing a Fitbit type ring, how is the Richard health going. Very well I trust, I want to see a lot more of these videos.
I think the key take home here is the massive variation in degradation irrespective of mileage. You could do 40k miles and have a not uncommon degradation of 15%. It doesn’t neatly follow your line of best fit. It is basically a lucky (or unlucky) dip.
LFP is fascinating, interesting to see after 250k miles or so. Suspect LFP to level off and last a long long time. That first drop could be worrying but really isn’t. Thanks for sharing.
My model S is out of warranty was 8 years , unlimited miles however it has been out of warranty since December 2023 but i do know there are two places in the UK who can repair Tesla battery packs and motors and im sure as time goes on there will be more of these kind of repair centres springing up as it can be a lot cheaper than paying for a new or refurbished pack or motor
Very interesting- thank you for providing the data. Observations for me are LFP seems to be the chemistry of choice and Tesla are middling to low on longevity beaten by many other brands.
With the counterpoint that Tesla actually has ranges that top their competitors when new, and will match their competitors when heavily used. It's like people charging their phone to 80%. Sure, it'll last longer. You'll also never actually be able to use the full range of the car when it's new. I much prefer Tesla's stance. I'm at 5 years and 150k km, and I'm just now at the point of range where my friend's Kia Niro has been since he bought it. So for the last 5 years, my car went alot further on a single charge.
@@Jeroenneman True, Tesla have always been the efficiency kings. But with cars that are now cheaper and have bigger batteries for the price, efficiency is less of a problem as the range will be the same. You only lose out most when public charging, but home charging will only cost a little more.
Would be interesting to look at old BMW i3s plenty out there with over 100,000 miles now and on smaller batteries so more charging cycles etc. I know if one smallest battery Rex with over 230,000 miles on the clock original battery and OK range according to the owner. Bjorn Nyland’s tests show good results for the little Beemer - I assume the bigger BMWs do well too . Is there a time factor as well as a use factor on degradation too.? There are lots of older LEAF Zoe and i3 out there, but they wouldn’t fall under your lease car scenario 😊
Thank you for sharing that data! As a current Tesla owner who has aspirations to become a Taycan owner I’ve admittedly been put off by the amount of negativity around the J1.1’s battery so I’d be all over Taycan’s being part of this. Any chance?
How do these grapes show battery failures? If a pack is completely bad and has to be replaced would it show up as 0 or is it removed from the data set?
My Peugeot E-Expert van has done 103,000 miles and Car Scanner states 90.1% SOC. Original Capacity 75Kwh with 68kwh usable is 90.7%. My home charger shows it is still putting in 67kwh to 68kwh charge to 100%. Not noticed any range drop other than expected weather related drops.
Running costs I’m quids in with home charging and Tesla/Ionity memberships. Still on the original rear tyres (3mm tread left) which I’ve never had from any vehicle before. Fronts changed at 56k. 3 x services with one pair of front pads (could have kept the old ones as plenty left) plus 1 light bulb! Just passed its MOT with the tester commenting “it’s in mint condition!”
As a former iPace owner - Jag’s policy of always charging to 100% won’t be helping battery life. Compared to Tesla where you charge to 80% unless you are doing a long journey.
LFP would be expected to drop off more quickly (often little/no buffer) and then should last significantly more cycles. Perfect for high milage vehicles.
Good data, In reality a breakdown of A/C & DC charging might also show a big effect on degradation. Certainly shows that batteries are not the issue that we keep being feed by the fudders.
Thanks for sharing data. I just saw a Kia EV6 for sale at a Bosch center with 170.000km and there was a certificat saying 100% Soh ? Does that just say it cant be measured the same way as others?
You need to factor in the different battery capacity in each cars because degradation happens relative to the charging cycle and smaller the battery pack is more the charging cycle per mile. 100kW battery pack should degrade 20% slower than 80kW battery pack in same mileage.
The key in these test is surely the change in battery life over time. That is the flatter the curve the better. As they all have different methods for reporting maximum battery capacity the important test is how these values change as it's the only like for like comparison we can make. On this test it looks like the lfp batteries are much better as a car that has "good" range at 30k will be far more likely to continue to have "good" range at 130k. A key point in this is Tesla Vs Audi in the manufacturerer comparison. While Audi starts at a higher percentage it actually starts to perform worse at 100kish. This tells you the battery in the Audi degrades faster which is all we can answer as everything else isn't apples to apples.
In everyday use range variations with ambient temperature will have more impact than any degradation in the cells. Oh and remember any ICE engine will lose bhp and performance with wear too. So charge it, drive it and enjoy it.
THE LFP comparison chart was very interesting. Taking into account the scattering and the odd man out showing initial high degradation, it would be interesting to know how this particular car was charged. Was it fast charged more than another car or is there another charging variable that should be taken into account.
We have a 72 plate MYLR from new, noticed its dropped off a bit, then again I don't think its ever done the stated 330 miles of range, tends to be fully charged at 303 to 308 which we do when heading out on a long trip. So long at it achieves 260 miles which is our longest round trip that's fine for us.
Is it possible to compensate for battery size in kWh? Comparing different sizes is not really fair. And replacement cost is highly associated to capacity.
Just excellent . a Genuine FUD beater . Have you considered producing a press release for distribution to our MSM - be interesting to gouge thier interest in facts. How accessible are the testing Apps ? Could you sponsor thier use by your audience to Crowd source even more data ? Early Tesla owners deployed as SC only Taxi operators did experience battery damage .Do you know the charge history profile of these data points : does extensive DC High Powr charging impact the outcome compared to almost exclusive AC HOME charging ? I suspect it might?
Hi Richard Hope you and the team are well. Battery question I collected a new M3 Highland on 27th Dec with 6 miles on the clock and 73% battery I have not done a trip yet so not charged past 80% Is that an issue, should it be charged to a 100% as a one off or is it ok to wait for whenever next road trip is? Thoughts appreciated Dan
Thanks Richard, do you have any data on tyres? I'm a fan of e Primacy 4, I've seen great range on these tyres, however others report less range. Just wondering what your thoughts are, c what tyres do you recommend for EV's?
Very interesting. As a Kia EV6 driver I’m curious if you can explain the odd results and your concerns with the data further? My car has only 25k miles and still reports 100% SoH and when I last charged to 100% it showed 73.3 kWh which is quite close to the original 74 kWh indicating just under 1% degradation.
All kia stuff build in a buffer so that degradation is mostly hidden. GM and tesla, do not. However, recently, tesla and gm now rate range after some initial degradation.
@ so if a car shows SoH at 95% it may really be 92% (random example). Is it possible to say how much the buffet was when new to calculate the real degradation.
@@tomm5936 Actually Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe for some. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test is real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
Hi, I'd like to see these stats by year, for example is a 3 year old 100k mileage battery worse than a 3 year old car that's only done say, 10k miles. How much does time affect the battery regardless of mileage.
Thanks for sharing this data. Could you extend your analysis to the impact of temperature on battery performane and range? Particularly, the impact of low, winter temperatures on range. My MG5 second generation hates -5 to +10 C and typically loses 65 miles on a 90% charge.
Hi Richard interesting video. My thoughts are how do the batteries fair with age rather than just high mileage. Ie a car that has done say 10,000 miles a year over say 10 years rather than 100,000 miles over say 3 or 4years. Which is more typical of a private buyer rather than a company car.
the problem with an analysis such as this is that it doesn't plot the 'driver behaviour' factor: Heavy right foot, ultra-fast charging, operating temperature/combination of all three, etc. Also, what constitutes an 'outlier' here? 3 sd? < 3sd? (why?) What would be useful is if SoH was to be recorded in mot data per @markukblackmore's post below; what would add to that somewhat would be if the 'power in/out' data was also recorded - then we'd know if a 'good' used battery had retained performance due to it's chemistery or because the driver hadn't (ab)used it overly, or conversely a shagged battery got that way 'cause the owner drove like an F1 nutter and charged twice a day at 350kW in their Death Valley homeland...(and so became an 'outlier'). It would be good to also show the data as normal distribution plots. Thanks, good stuff.
Renault Zoe 4.5 years old and 36000 driven. Using Canzee Getting linear losses (measured every three months or so) and SOH shows 95.2%. Predict 90% will be hit at 72000 ATM. Hopefully the plot will start to flatten. Having said the above my dealer did a test at my last service showing SOH at 98.8% !!!!
Is the degradation time specific, recharged number or time/age of battery? I would assume it is more related to recharge cycles but I wonder if it’s actually a combo of the two.
What would be cool if the software supports it would be adding a colour temperature to each of the dots on the all and manufacturer specific graphs representing the percentage of fast charging each of the vehicles has experienced. Would we see a trend regarding the side of the line the individual cars fall?
My 2021 M3P has 161,000 miles on it now. Scan my Tesla says I have 63.5kwh nominal remaining from the original 82.1kwh. 22.7% degradation. Car has been 60+% supercharged through its life in the UK! Thought it would be better, but maybe the Panasonic battery isn’t as good as the older smaller capacity one?
My guess is that the Teslas are to a much higher degree fast charged, as that is one of the main reasons why people chose Tesla back then (the supercharger network), which is also supported by there being a lot more high mileage Teslas. Therefore i think the data might not be entirely comparable. Since the other cars are probably slow charged to a much higher degree, which is good for their battery health, they're much more comparable to each other.
Great video with heaps of data. In my case as a first time ev owner, I chose to get a BYD, for the supposedly lower degradation LFP tech. Also, heat pump was a plus. Do you have data on chemistry instead of brand? That would be lovely.
I think I have a great business idea for you Rich: Provide a Tesla rebranding service! I love me M3 but I would love a service to make it look like a Chinese EV just so that I can avoid the Elon conversation
It It odd that certain corners are pushing for hybrids but neglect to mention battery degradation of hybrid packs that often do without thermal management!
Could it be that the testing methodology isn't adjusted for LFP batteries? The voltage curve behaves differently, i.e. is much flatter, and they need to be charged to 100% regularly for the BCM to recalibrate to know where the actual 100% is.
Tesla had 55 and 60kw LFP battery packs in 2021/22 and I think the 55kw packs were added into the 60kw data, and so they erroneously show ~10% degradation at 30k miles.
Interesting observations... as the curves are tailoring off in somewhat identical patterns, I think the "buffer" that different suppliers choose to have, "compensates" a bit and therefore they start a little higher after some time...... LFP vs Non LFP.... For LFP it is from 50-100% that is "hard to measure" (therefore the need for calibration so the car knows at what SOC it is = charge to 100% e.g. once a week)... Not healthy for any battery to charge to 100%, but the LFP can hold longer by design.... 20-80% on Non LFP or 20-100% on LFP, should degrade about the same... If you do NOT charge to 100% on LFP it will hold much longer (but you will not really know how much range there is, until it suddently hits the "below 50% range" area). And thinking about it 60% used range on 82 kwh vs 80% used range on 60 kwh...there is suddently not that big of range difference in recharging patterns in daily driving patterns for most of us... (until you NEED the extra range for a long trip)
Richard next time you buy a Tesla at the auction that has had a battery test run your own test and see if it's the same. Would be interesting to see how accurate the battery tests are at the auction houses.
At the 3 year point, Jan 2024, I screenshot my Tesla app that showed my Model 3 had 250 miles at an 80% charge. In Jan 2025, and after driving 20,000 miles in 2024, it’s reporting 248 miles at 80%. I charge to 100% a couple of times a month. Depending on the outside temperature, a 100% charge gives me 309-312 miles. In Jan 2024, a 100% charge gave me 318 -320 miles. I charge at a Tesla supercharger a couple of times a month and top up about 100 miles. The rest of the time I charge at home. I’m not losing any sleep over it.
Thanks Richard, thats put my mind at rest. My 2022 M3 LFP has done 22K miles and the Tessie app says ive lost 6% which i thought v high but looks like its ok. Btw weren't tesla going to be allowing us to pay to release extra capacity? How would that work and how would that affect the graphs?
Something seriously wrong with that data set... I suspect whatever mechanism is reporting the "state of health" has got bugs. Well... and the mechanism is going to be different for each vehicle. The only way to really calculate a proper state of health is to full-cycle the battery. Empty-to-full with a fixed charge rate would be the most consistent method. -Matt
Nothing wrong, just hard to accept for some. Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test it's real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
Empty to full with a fixed charge rate wouldn't tell you anything conclusive, too many variables such as the losses in the onboard charger and energy used for battery heating/cooling.
I'm in a 2015 Tesla model S and I've currently got 307,000 on the clock and my degradation is currently 14.63% with capacity at 69.58% I'm still happy with it , it's an every day WORKING car and I still enjoy it
Good mileage 👍
Where is the rest of the battery percentage ? 14.63 + 69.58 = 84.21% ! Am I missing something ? 😂
Translate this to us please. It doesn't add up to 100%
Probably you meant 69.58 kWh?!
Fair play💪😎
Interesting video rich, that's by far the most extensive dataset of this type I've seen, especially one with all the data generated from a consistent method. Great work!
Hi Richard, I bought my BMW i3 new in 2019. It’s now at just over 50k miles, I’ve not had the traction battery tested, but I’ve not noticed any loss of range. Yes, range is much lower in the cold months, and much better in the warm months, but it was like that from day one. This is my first BEV and despite being nervous about my choice at the time, I’m very pleased with my purchase and have no regrets.
I doubt that the Aviloo flash test would be entirely reliable with the i3 or a probe with app and dongle from what we know. The full expensive Aviloo driving test with data logger might tell you something useful but is it worth it? I'm doing half the mileage you are on mine.
We bought an i3 with 120 Ah battery a few months ago from 2019 with 59.000 km's and an Aviloo score of 97. The seller was specialized in i3's and our was in the number-range of the other cars for the flash test. My wife gets a bit more than 200 km in the current weather (0 degrees Celcius), with a mix of local and motorway travel
7:10 Probably fair to point out that if Kia and Hyundai are buffering their battery capacity to the degree that you're still getting 100% of rated capacity years after purchase, that's a GOOD thing. The consumer can effectively count on the nominal capacity they were sold on at new, for many years to come because the company over-delivered.
Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test it's real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
@@flavianddI’ve had a Kona Electric for 4.5 years. Almost 110,000 kms and the range is exactly the same.
@@rizulli See ? This is what I am talking about. And you are not the only one in this case. I heard many users doing tests and concluding the same. So it''s not just reading the battery data that shows this, real life tests also confirm it.
Yes
@@flaviandd But in the meanwhile the Tesla's lose almost nothing so what's the point.
Cracking video Richard. Really helps dispel the myth that EV batteries will need replacing after 3 years.
Battery health is 85.37% with degradation of 14.63% so and usable is 69.58kwh hope that answers your question
This is a great video and great data, thanks for producing it.
Richard - this is a fantastic gold mine of data . 2 mins into the video - really great! On behalf of the BEV industry and owners - existing and prospective thanks for doing this. Awesome.
The graph LFP vs non-LFP is suggesting that at a certain point the RWD (LFP) will have more actual range than a LR Tesla (non-LFP). It's probably 200k miles/320k km, but there might be an actual cross over point that will become a topic once these cars are getting much older.
What the % of people than take cars at 200000miles ? Where I live it's pretty damn low. Like more than 10-15 years to get there
Great video and very informative. Great points made in comments about battery age so I have emailed you to book in my Audi E-Tron 55 (2019) and on 80k miles, with you so we can see the battery condition on a 6 year old with that mileage to add to your data set. I have not noticed any degradation (other than weather related).
Watched a recent chat between Plug Life TV's - Dr Euan Mcturk (consultant battery electrochemist) and a company rep (Altelium) which provides extended warranties for vehicles out of battery warranty. It was interesting because your findings were indeed valid, but time played an important variable in battery degradation. This also reflects the older battery chemistries, and the data suggests that newer chemistries will laat longer than the older ones are doing, but even the older ones are lasting a lot longer than was envisaged, to the consternation of battery material recyclers, who still haven't been able to really get upto speed yet.
I find it amusing when EV-deniers state that batteries will only last 10 years maximum.
@@JohnnyMotel99 Well, at least they're up from 3 years, so at least they're improving.
@@ramblerandy2397my problem is that the battery keeps catching fire each week.
@@JohnnyMotel99 They'll also say that the batteries are full of rare and expensive materials, immediately followed by they end up in landfill; logic has stepped out of the room!
@ And all those battery recyclers are eager to show them they're wrong.
Great stuff. Thank you for taking the time to do this analysis
I’m thinking of buying a used ev this year and this really helps my confidence, many thanks
Richard, when comparing Tesla LFP with NMC it might be a good idea to only include cars that are post 2021 because batteries will degrade with age as well as use so having NMC cars that are older than 2021 in the data will distort the result.
Since the LFP are short range and the NMCs* are long range then graphing it by number of charge cycles might be interesting too, not sure if the Teslas report that to the customer - certainly with mine you'd need the dealer diagnostic tools. *or are they LCO chemistry like the early Model S?
Similar data on carla dealer from sweden webpage. Also Bjorn Nyland mentioned them in his Aviloo interview about two years ago. Wanted to do a similar excel on carla myself, but never managed to find time. I scrolled those results many times gathering empirical conclusions. One of the conclusions is that VW/Audi batteries degrade mostly with age. Tesla degrade both with age and km driven. While Kia/Hyundai keep up great, both with age and km driven.
I also get that Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe for some. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test is real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
Very useful information going forward, keep up the good work👍
I use an OBDC2 plug and Car Scanner app on my 71reg Ioniq5. At c.30K mileage it showed 95% battery capacity. The car went to the dealership at 34K and their report was 94.5% capacity. So the car seems to be following the same curve as the LMC Teslas.
Fabulous video. I would caution against drawing too many conclusions when their number of data points is low. But hopefully that will improve in the future. It makes me wonder if electric cars should have their battery capacity recorded during MOT tests!
People often think that LFP batteries are not 'damaged' by being charged to 100% but this is not true. The only reason LFP batteries need to be regularly charged to 100% is to maintain accurate SOC charge indication. This is because LFP batteries have a very flat voltage curve across SOC so battery voltage can't be used to calculate SOC. LFP batteries meter current in and out to calculate SOC and this drifts. However LFP does have a voltage kick up at 100% SOC so by charging to 100% the SOC baseline can be reset.
March 2020 Tesla Model 3 LR with performance boost, just completed 100K miles this month with a degradation of 11%.
Two Model 3s in our family.
Oldest a 3 year old M3P with 46000km. 9% degradation from Panasonic pack (Shanghai car).
Newest 2 year old M3LR with 50000km and 5% degradation from the LG pack.
The Panasonic pack in the older car is a known problem child for degradation (i will need to look up the part number again). Obviously some different between packs but calender aging may have had more impact on this particular example.
Just wanted to say how much I enjoy your content. In terms of your graphs and what they tell you. On the all car graph you should drop the Kia / Hyundai as they are outliers that will corrupt the average. Also with the spread of results being so far above and below the average, you need to go for a Modal average rather than Mean average if you want to estimate what you can expect as the norm. In terms of Tesla it would be interesting to map charging habits v the scatter pattern. Eg does long range fast charged cars come below the norm etc. Another point of interest would be any variance in the condition figure driven by the battery temp at the time it was measured. Cheers again for the interesting content. 😎
Fascinating information as ever. I suspect the thing that affects battery pack longevity the most is the complicated electronic device that sits between the steering wheel and the driver seat.
I own a BMW iX1, and after 30,000 miles, the battery shows zero degradation. BMW truly knows how to build batteries and develop software for them. The system for preconditioning the battery for fast charging, along with the ability to activate it manually in the car or through the app, is top-notch.
Great Video. We have done a few SoH tests so far with our Autel Maxisys Ultra EV. So far the EGMP cars seem to be holding up the best had one yesterday 100% SoH at 70000km. My Mini is showing 96% at 25000km
@@simplygregsterev eGMP show 100% SOH long after the true usable capacity has started to reduce, it's bad data. There is a thread somewhere on the international Ioniq forums where Ioniq 5 owners were measuring degradation in real measured capacity. I seem to remember it was similar to what you see with other brands.
Great project Richard. Something that you may want to consider in your data (and I'm super surprised its not mentioned much in degradation discussions) is battery calendar ageing. Lithium batteries degrade while sitting doing nothing (at different rates depending on SOC, temperature and chemistry). I get the impression (and some lab reports back this up), that calendar ageing becomes more of a dominant factor than cycling for LFP batteries (unless the battery clocks up a lot of cycles in a short time).
It would be super interesting to look at battery degradation of cars over time (in years) rather than millage.
Really useful topic. Be good to see regular updates as you build the dataset.
I think an important factor to consider in this equation would be battery age. I'd be curious to see degradation on a 5 year-old battery with 20.000 miles on it, for example. I think time matters even more than mileage when it comes to batteries.
You are dead right, my EV started showing battery bar loss at 5 years old. All batteries degrade with time and use cycles. All !
Very interesting project, Richard, thanks for sharing. 👍
I would suggest looking at the capacity not only by mileage but also by the age of the battery, as it seems to be another parameter to consider.
I agree. Is degradation a function of age or mileage (or both)
I am gathering the data incl age so can report on that too further down the line
Very interesting results. I was surprised at the Tesla Model 3 LFP degradation at 30k miles being greater than the non LFP. I can understand the SR non LFP having higher degradation than the LR, as it's a smaller battery and charged more frequently to achieve the same overall mileage. It would be interesting to compare the charging habits between the LFP and non-LFP cars, to see if LFP cars were charged to 100% more often. Perhaps as more data becomes available a clearer picture will emerge.
yeahp... Tesla recommend charging lfp to 100... but this although helps BMS to calibrate ( more difficult on lfp than NMC due to small voltage variation ) it is proven that in any current lithium based battery, keeping it for long at 100 will degrade it faster... so people may be degrading more the batteries by following manufacturers indications. would really like to have more information but it is still scarce
@@freddykrueger79Yep used to top mine up every few days. Until that recent report which said it will degraded just as much as lithium ion.
Now charge it to full when it gets down to 20%.
The stated range has now gone up.
@jonnya245 to recalibrate BMS you probably just need to charge from 20 to 100 once a month and don't keep car for 100%soc for much time
I had Kia for 4 years,i was still getting the same range at the end as when i bought (45k miles at the end). Whether it's using a buffer or not, all the same to me.
Yep, Kia and Hyundai are so good compared with others that it is hard to believe. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test it's real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
Our 70k km, 3 year old Kia eSoul hasn't lost a single km in range so far. It has a big buffer but I suspect it also has a very good battery management system, it sounds like a jet taking off when fast charging. 15kwh/100km average during that period, with about 50% of its total kms made on the motorway. Brilliant car, its been completely flawless.
What's missing is the age of the cars as age is also a factor in battery life. I would also be interested to see how much better battery heating/cooling effects it (e.g. model 3 pre/post heat pump).
Good stuff. So much unfounded FUD around. Battery also degrades over time as well as use, however many of the very long distance (100k+) ones probably decent age as well ?
Thanks Richard, really interesting to see this and agree with the overall conclusion. Although being able attach a number to battery degradation feels like a big step forward, I wondered if there need to be a few more caveats around what exactly the Aviloo flash test is measuring, and what the numbers mean. For example I see on their website that it's only on the (longer) premium test that they actually calculate a state of health, which implies that there are some limitations to the flash test.. And it's not clear to me whether some of the measurements are relative (I.e. relative to a benchmark based on scores from similar models) or absolute. Maybe you could do a follow-up video interviewing someone from Aviloo?
My Gen 1 MG ZS is just 5 years & 30,000 miles old. Battery SOH is at 98% as reported by dealer at recent MOT. Only maintenance has been a set of wiper blades. Still on original tyres, brake pads & discs.
My early UK Model 3 SR+, now 5+ years is only charged to 80% for most use as I need to stop for a comfort break by then. As long as it can do 80% charge I won't really notice the difference except on a couple of journeys a year when I'll need to rethink my pit-stops. Going down to single figure mileage doesn't worry me as the superchargers are so reliable.
Same. My 2019 SR+ is at 63k now and based on fully charged mileage shown now vs when delivered I estimate 7% deg, but it’s immaterial to my use of the car.
It’ll always charge to 80%……but of a declining capacity
Hi, great video, thanks for sharing. From the limited tests you have done so far, how would you say the Peugeot's/ Corsa's compare to the others you have tested? I want an ev but am totally obsessed and paranoid about the battery health! 😅
Excellent content. Bravo!
Thanks Richard , very useful.
Thanks, hopefully the myth of the battery needing replacing after a few years is fading, along with all the other myths.
Yes there will be an occasional battery failure and and occasional fire, but less than ICE car engine failure and fires.
Oh the haters will keep saying it.
And they'll ignore all the gm v8 engines failing all over the place.
As with all statistics, the result depends on how the subjects (batteries in this case) are selected. Ideally for accurate data you would need a sample that is not dependent on the owner deciding to get the battery tested.
Great analysis. Thank you
Interesting data but I am curious whether batteries degrade due to time more than mileage. My 2019 Model 3 SR+ has done 105,000kms (about 70,000 miles) and has lost about 15% of its original range. I have spoken to fellow owners that have done more than double the miles but have very similar loss of range.
Cars using LFP currently have smaller batteries than the higher spec versions of the same model that don't use LFP, so will need more charge/discharge cycles to cover the same miles. Examples include MG4, Tesla 3 & Y. It is the number of cycles that is usually judged to cause degradation, together with age.
A really informative video which shows the longevity of EVs.
Are you able to compare the smart options once the vehicles go out of warranty?
My understanding is that the Kia’s in the UK might lose access to Kia Connect after 7 years which means that battery pre-conditioning and remote heating would stop as an example.
I think there was some confusion in the LFP M3 2021/22 model years as there was two different battery pack sizes: 55 + 60KW, and these were misplotted giving erroneously high degradation for the 55kw packs.
Another interesting EV video Richard. I see you are wearing a Fitbit type ring, how is the Richard health going. Very well I trust, I want to see a lot more of these videos.
I think the key take home here is the massive variation in degradation irrespective of mileage. You could do 40k miles and have a not uncommon degradation of 15%. It doesn’t neatly follow your line of best fit. It is basically a lucky (or unlucky) dip.
LFP is fascinating, interesting to see after 250k miles or so. Suspect LFP to level off and last a long long time. That first drop could be worrying but really isn’t. Thanks for sharing.
My model S is out of warranty was 8 years , unlimited miles however it has been out of warranty since December 2023 but i do know there are two places in the UK who can repair Tesla battery packs and motors and im sure as time goes on there will be more of these kind of repair centres springing up as it can be a lot cheaper than paying for a new or refurbished pack or motor
Great data set. Thanks! Any BMW i4 data?
Very interesting- thank you for providing the data.
Observations for me are LFP seems to be the chemistry of choice and Tesla are middling to low on longevity beaten by many other brands.
With the counterpoint that Tesla actually has ranges that top their competitors when new, and will match their competitors when heavily used.
It's like people charging their phone to 80%. Sure, it'll last longer. You'll also never actually be able to use the full range of the car when it's new.
I much prefer Tesla's stance. I'm at 5 years and 150k km, and I'm just now at the point of range where my friend's Kia Niro has been since he bought it. So for the last 5 years, my car went alot further on a single charge.
@@Jeroenneman True, Tesla have always been the efficiency kings.
But with cars that are now cheaper and have bigger batteries for the price, efficiency is less of a problem as the range will be the same.
You only lose out most when public charging, but home charging will only cost a little more.
Would be interesting to look at old BMW i3s plenty out there with over 100,000 miles now and on smaller batteries so more charging cycles etc. I know if one smallest battery Rex with over 230,000 miles on the clock original battery and OK range according to the owner. Bjorn Nyland’s tests show good results for the little Beemer - I assume the bigger BMWs do well too . Is there a time factor as well as a use factor on degradation too.? There are lots of older LEAF Zoe and i3 out there, but they wouldn’t fall under your lease car scenario 😊
Thank you for sharing that data! As a current Tesla owner who has aspirations to become a Taycan owner I’ve admittedly been put off by the amount of negativity around the J1.1’s battery so I’d be all over Taycan’s being part of this. Any chance?
How do these grapes show battery failures? If a pack is completely bad and has to be replaced would it show up as 0 or is it removed from the data set?
My Peugeot E-Expert van has done 103,000 miles and Car Scanner states 90.1% SOC.
Original Capacity 75Kwh with 68kwh usable is 90.7%. My home charger shows it is still putting in 67kwh to 68kwh charge to 100%.
Not noticed any range drop other than expected weather related drops.
Calculated running savings? Both fuel and maintenance would add up I’m sure
Running costs I’m quids in with home charging and Tesla/Ionity memberships.
Still on the original rear tyres (3mm tread left) which I’ve never had from any vehicle before. Fronts changed at 56k. 3 x services with one pair of front pads (could have kept the old ones as plenty left) plus 1 light bulb!
Just passed its MOT with the tester commenting “it’s in mint condition!”
Great video! Please also show km
As a former iPace owner - Jag’s policy of always charging to 100% won’t be helping battery life. Compared to Tesla where you charge to 80% unless you are doing a long journey.
LFP would be expected to drop off more quickly (often little/no buffer) and then should last significantly more cycles. Perfect for high milage vehicles.
Great data!
Good data, In reality a breakdown of A/C & DC charging might also show a big effect on degradation. Certainly shows that batteries are not the issue that we keep being feed by the fudders.
Our own m3p has had a lot of DC but it was still 90% at 100k miles
On leafs with no active cooling, yes. Since then, not really.
Thanks for sharing data. I just saw a Kia EV6 for sale at a Bosch center with 170.000km and there was a certificat saying 100% Soh ? Does that just say it cant be measured the same way as others?
You need to factor in the different battery capacity in each cars because degradation happens relative to the charging cycle and smaller the battery pack is more the charging cycle per mile.
100kW battery pack should degrade 20% slower than 80kW battery pack in same mileage.
The key in these test is surely the change in battery life over time. That is the flatter the curve the better. As they all have different methods for reporting maximum battery capacity the important test is how these values change as it's the only like for like comparison we can make.
On this test it looks like the lfp batteries are much better as a car that has "good" range at 30k will be far more likely to continue to have "good" range at 130k.
A key point in this is Tesla Vs Audi in the manufacturerer comparison. While Audi starts at a higher percentage it actually starts to perform worse at 100kish. This tells you the battery in the Audi degrades faster which is all we can answer as everything else isn't apples to apples.
In everyday use range variations with ambient temperature will have more impact than any degradation in the cells. Oh and remember any ICE engine will lose bhp and performance with wear too. So charge it, drive it and enjoy it.
THE LFP comparison chart was very interesting. Taking into account the scattering and the odd man out showing initial high degradation, it would be interesting to know how this particular car was charged. Was it fast charged more than another car or is there another charging variable that should be taken into account.
See my comment above.
We have a 72 plate MYLR from new, noticed its dropped off a bit, then again I don't think its ever done the stated 330 miles of range, tends to be fully charged at 303 to 308 which we do when heading out on a long trip. So long at it achieves 260 miles which is our longest round trip that's fine for us.
Fantastic video, thank you a lot! :-)
Any information on Cupra Borns. Had mine 2.5 years done 44k and the last battery check was at 78%.
Thats terrible vw id3 have had big problems with Deg apparently I guess the cupra has a same battery
Cells in smaller capacity batteries are likely to have more charge cycles so degrade faster than larger capacity batteries.
My ID3 at 43k shows 90% battery capacity, which is normal for VW 58kWh battery.
Is it possible to compensate for battery size in kWh? Comparing different sizes is not really fair. And replacement cost is highly associated to capacity.
This! A 100 kWh battery and 50kWh battery af 100k miles have clearly done different numbers of cycles and cycles is a key factor in degradation.
Are there used packs available on the market now in the unlikely event of a fault?
Just excellent . a Genuine FUD beater .
Have you considered producing a press release for distribution to our MSM - be interesting to gouge thier interest in facts.
How accessible are the testing Apps ?
Could you sponsor thier use by your audience to Crowd source even more data ?
Early Tesla owners deployed as SC only Taxi operators did experience battery damage .Do you know the charge history profile of these data points : does extensive DC High Powr charging impact the outcome compared to almost exclusive AC HOME charging ? I suspect it might?
Hi Richard
Hope you and the team are well.
Battery question
I collected a new M3 Highland on 27th Dec with 6 miles on the clock and 73% battery
I have not done a trip yet so not charged past 80%
Is that an issue, should it be charged to a 100% as a one off or is it ok to wait for whenever next road trip is?
Thoughts appreciated
Dan
Thanks Richard, do you have any data on tyres? I'm a fan of e Primacy 4, I've seen great range on these tyres, however others report less range. Just wondering what your thoughts are, c what tyres do you recommend for EV's?
Very interesting. As a Kia EV6 driver I’m curious if you can explain the odd results and your concerns with the data further? My car has only 25k miles and still reports 100% SoH and when I last charged to 100% it showed 73.3 kWh which is quite close to the original 74 kWh indicating just under 1% degradation.
All kia stuff build in a buffer so that degradation is mostly hidden. GM and tesla, do not. However, recently, tesla and gm now rate range after some initial degradation.
@ so if a car shows SoH at 95% it may really be 92% (random example). Is it possible to say how much the buffet was when new to calculate the real degradation.
@@tomm5936 Actually Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe for some. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test is real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
@tomm5936 yes. You can check via obd port.
@@sprockkets I have the OBD reader. What should I look for?
Hi,
I'd like to see these stats by year, for example is a 3 year old 100k mileage battery worse than a 3 year old car that's only done say, 10k miles. How much does time affect the battery regardless of mileage.
Thanks for sharing this data. Could you extend your analysis to the impact of temperature on battery performane and range? Particularly, the impact of low, winter temperatures on range. My MG5 second generation hates -5 to +10 C and typically loses 65 miles on a 90% charge.
Hi Richard interesting video. My thoughts are how do the batteries fair with age rather than just high mileage. Ie a car that has done say 10,000 miles a year over say 10 years rather than 100,000 miles over say 3 or 4years. Which is more typical of a private buyer rather than a company car.
the problem with an analysis such as this is that it doesn't plot the 'driver behaviour' factor: Heavy right foot, ultra-fast charging, operating temperature/combination of all three, etc. Also, what constitutes an 'outlier' here? 3 sd? < 3sd? (why?)
What would be useful is if SoH was to be recorded in mot data per @markukblackmore's post below; what would add to that somewhat would be if the 'power in/out' data was also recorded - then we'd know if a 'good' used battery had retained performance due to it's chemistery or because the driver hadn't (ab)used it overly, or conversely a shagged battery got that way 'cause the owner drove like an F1 nutter and charged twice a day at 350kW in their Death Valley homeland...(and so became an 'outlier').
It would be good to also show the data as normal distribution plots.
Thanks, good stuff.
Renault Zoe 4.5 years old and 36000 driven. Using Canzee Getting linear losses (measured every three months or so) and SOH shows 95.2%. Predict 90% will be hit at 72000 ATM. Hopefully the plot will start to flatten. Having said the above my dealer did a test at my last service showing SOH at 98.8% !!!!
Is the degradation time specific, recharged number or time/age of battery? I would assume it is more related to recharge cycles but I wonder if it’s actually a combo of the two.
ChatGPT says both age and mileage.
The LFP cars tend to have smaller batteries, so will cycle more often, so you'd expect them to degrade more.
What would be cool if the software supports it would be adding a colour temperature to each of the dots on the all and manufacturer specific graphs representing the percentage of fast charging each of the vehicles has experienced. Would we see a trend regarding the side of the line the individual cars fall?
My 2021 M3P has 161,000 miles on it now. Scan my Tesla says I have 63.5kwh nominal remaining from the original 82.1kwh. 22.7% degradation. Car has been 60+% supercharged through its life in the UK!
Thought it would be better, but maybe the Panasonic battery isn’t as good as the older smaller capacity one?
My guess is that the Teslas are to a much higher degree fast charged, as that is one of the main reasons why people chose Tesla back then (the supercharger network), which is also supported by there being a lot more high mileage Teslas. Therefore i think the data might not be entirely comparable. Since the other cars are probably slow charged to a much higher degree, which is good for their battery health, they're much more comparable to each other.
Great video with heaps of data. In my case as a first time ev owner, I chose to get a BYD, for the supposedly lower degradation LFP tech. Also, heat pump was a plus. Do you have data on chemistry instead of brand? That would be lovely.
There’s a bit in there on LfP Tesla as a conparison
@RSEV guess I'll have to follow the channel to hear from you when my car gets to be 10 years old. No pressure, love the content.
Capacity would also play a part, esp in the LFP vs not. Can you plot on size?
I have a feeling the teslas are kind owned more by reps and driver more hard than premium brands where people might care more
Not always. I'm retired, bought mine from new and cosset the car ! Rarely use DC chargers .
@@cngraham7932 I mean in this test, Im similar to u
I think I have a great business idea for you Rich:
Provide a Tesla rebranding service!
I love me M3 but I would love a service to make it look like a Chinese EV just so that I can avoid the Elon conversation
Oh no
It It odd that certain corners are pushing for hybrids but neglect to mention battery degradation of hybrid packs that often do without thermal management!
Could it be that the testing methodology isn't adjusted for LFP batteries? The voltage curve behaves differently, i.e. is much flatter, and they need to be charged to 100% regularly for the BCM to recalibrate to know where the actual 100% is.
Tesla had 55 and 60kw LFP battery packs in 2021/22 and I think the 55kw packs were added into the 60kw data, and so they erroneously show ~10% degradation at 30k miles.
Interesting observations... as the curves are tailoring off in somewhat identical patterns, I think the "buffer" that different suppliers choose to have, "compensates" a bit and therefore they start a little higher after some time...... LFP vs Non LFP.... For LFP it is from 50-100% that is "hard to measure" (therefore the need for calibration so the car knows at what SOC it is = charge to 100% e.g. once a week)... Not healthy for any battery to charge to 100%, but the LFP can hold longer by design.... 20-80% on Non LFP or 20-100% on LFP, should degrade about the same... If you do NOT charge to 100% on LFP it will hold much longer (but you will not really know how much range there is, until it suddently hits the "below 50% range" area). And thinking about it 60% used range on 82 kwh vs 80% used range on 60 kwh...there is suddently not that big of range difference in recharging patterns in daily driving patterns for most of us... (until you NEED the extra range for a long trip)
Richard next time you buy a Tesla at the auction that has had a battery test run your own test and see if it's the same. Would be interesting to see how accurate the battery tests are at the auction houses.
Already been doing that, comparing pavilion v altelium v scan my Tesla…
There will be a video on it soon I’m sure 🤷♂️
@RSEV looking forward to that video 👍
@@RSEV keep gathering data, we wait agog! 🙂
At the 3 year point, Jan 2024, I screenshot my Tesla app that showed my Model 3 had 250 miles at an 80% charge. In Jan 2025, and after driving 20,000 miles in 2024, it’s reporting 248 miles at 80%. I charge to 100% a couple of times a month. Depending on the outside temperature, a 100% charge gives me 309-312 miles. In Jan 2024, a 100% charge gave me 318 -320 miles. I charge at a Tesla supercharger a couple of times a month and top up about 100 miles. The rest of the time I charge at home. I’m not losing any sleep over it.
I think most battery packs lose around 5% in the first 12 - 18 months .
Very interesting data thanks. Where some EVs have lower degradation could this be due to better battery management systems ?.
Thanks Richard, thats put my mind at rest. My 2022 M3 LFP has done 22K miles and the Tessie app says ive lost 6% which i thought v high but looks like its ok. Btw weren't tesla going to be allowing us to pay to release extra capacity? How would that work and how would that affect the graphs?
Something seriously wrong with that data set... I suspect whatever mechanism is reporting the "state of health" has got bugs. Well... and the mechanism is going to be different for each vehicle. The only way to really calculate a proper state of health is to full-cycle the battery. Empty-to-full with a fixed charge rate would be the most consistent method.
-Matt
Nothing wrong, just hard to accept for some. Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test it's real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
Empty to full with a fixed charge rate wouldn't tell you anything conclusive, too many variables such as the losses in the onboard charger and energy used for battery heating/cooling.
There is chronological degradation too , the clock is ticking from the day of manufacturing .