I know a lot of people say “old heads don’t want their GOAT replaced” and that may be the case and I can see if you’re talking about Dr.J or Bird or Magic but bro, Michael Jordan is basketball personified.
I'm really trying here but no one's listening. Anyone who is stating reasons why Lebron is the goat wasn't around when MJ played. If I wasn't around when MJ played I'm sure I'd say the same as them. Even though they're so dead wrong. One of the guys I'm debating with told me that LeBron has won a ring with three different teams and MJ only with one team LOL. As if that's a good thing. They've got to be youngsters. Anyway we all know what's what
@@Daveyboy_RS3 Sorry DB330, but Lebron is the GOAT and it isn't even close. The talking TV heads never bring up this point - MJ was only successful because of the GREAT teammates he played with. Lebron NEVER had the same luxury until this last season. If you want to argue numbers, please don't because I will blow you away. By the way, I was THERE when MJ's Tarheels came into the Carrier Dome to play Syracuse, Dec. 10, 1983, so I watched his whole career. I used to think MJ was the greatest. He is not. He was entitled and made the most of the situation. The best analogy is Kawhi, playing for Toronto.
@@jtFacts77 That's an automatic L for you if you want to bring up Michael team-mates. Lebron has never taking a rookie under his wing and won with them. People act like Scottie Pippen came in the league as the best player. Lebron would have traded Pippen just like he did Wiggins. Lebron would have traded Anthony Davis if he was a rookie. Lebron played with all the top players of his draft in their prime and still lost to the Mavs.
@@jtFacts77 Dwyane Wade was a top five player when he played with him and Chris Bosh was an All-Star. That's all I have to say. LeBron also had Kyrie Irving (top 5 player who is likely the most naturally raw talent in the league, accompanied by another 6'10 🌟 Kevin Love (avg 20\11, who was a force on the glass and could also kill you with the three ball) in 2016 when Cleveland won the championship, and now that he's on New Jersey with KD, they are picked to win the East next year. And now he has AD who is the best pure scorer in the league from anywhere on the court at almost 6'11 who can also dive and dip and Euro step like he's half his size, a defensive force, an MVP caliber player, top 3 or 4 in the league. And he's playing with the best in the league. Just like Max kellerman said, when you take two top five MVP type players and put them on the same team, the odds are they will win a championship. Especially with all the injuries this season with the splash Brothers injured at Golden State and Kevin Durant injured as well in the east, it was a cakewalk for LA and should have been. Don't get me wrong, LeBron was absolutely incredible this postseason and he completely dispatched every team like it was nothing. But they never came up on Milwaukee or the clippers which is a shame as they both choked. But yes, He is the greatest player on the court today at 35 years old and has the greatest NBA career of all time (some people might say Kareem) but that's not my fight. However after everything that I've written all day I'm kind of beat up LOL so I will say that they did take a survey of current NBA players and past NBA players, about who the goat is, Michael Jordan got 73% of the vote, LBJ got 13%, Kareem got six or seven percent, Kobe got I think five, Wilt and Russell got a couple. So as far as the NBA players are concerned MJ is the goat. If LeBron didn't lose six championships regardless of the situation or his teammates or his coach... (Everyone had situations and factors) the debate wouldn't be so cut and dry. If LeBron had won six or seven out of his ten visits to the finals, his legacy would definitely be elevated but it would still leave Jordan as the GOAT. I'm assuming that you did not grow up watching Michael Jordan and you did watch LeBron James. Like I've told others young guys, If I started watching basketball after MJ had long retired I would be right there with you because I couldn't imagine anyone being better than LeBron James. Anyway good talk I'm done for today LOL. I enjoy debating this anyway. Not going to put MJ stats up compared to lbj's to rub it in either.
@@quechyancummings8070 You must be a young boy, because you don't know your history. Pippen was in his 4th year when they won the championship. Also, you must think that Lebron was the GM when he first went to Cleveland. He wasn't. It took 7 years for Jordan to make the Finals with a STACKED roster. Lebron made the finals in his 4th year with a bunch of nobodies. Lastly, Wade was on the downward trajectory in his career when Lebron came to Miami. He wasn't in his prime.
He also led the league in steals three seasons & was top 3 in like 8 seasons, led all guards in blocks a bunch of years, he was just as lethal on defense 🐐!!!
Magic Johnson:"Michael Jordan can do incredible moves, moves that I have never seen before, but nobody was better than Larry Bird, Larry Bird was the only player I feared."
Cyber 6 sapien, in a nutshell considering Jordan played 14 seasons or so, he won the scoring championship every year he played a full season. And these are great factors to determine the greatest of all time in the NBA... Even though Jordan doesn't need the perfect championship record to be considered the goat, since he has LeBron on everyone of these factors and many more.... the only argument we ever need is that the player that is to be considered greatest of all time cannot have lost 4 finals in 5 years. Other important factors in being considered for the goat is leading, win at all costs (kobe, Jordan) and completely taking over in the clutch when it's all on the line. Those were not LeBrons strong suits throughout his career. And remember, There is only one GOAT so all of this has to be scrutinized. You can have no rings and still be a top 10 player of all time but not the goat because if you were the greatest of all time your basketball IQ would have figured out a way to get those rings. but we're talking about the one and only best of the best, and if somehow LeBron James does get named the official goat before he retires ... in the annals of history, many years after LeBron James has long retired, the fans and journalists will be absolutely bewildered at how LeBron James could have been considered the best of all time as opposed to Michael Jordan if he lost six out of 10 finals among everything else MJ has over him. And remember this isn't baseball or football that has 15 players on the field where you can only choose the best at each position. This is five on five where one man can take it upon himself to win the game or championship, or not step Up and lose. A game where you can in fact have one goat (regardless of generations) if one has elevated so far beyond all the others that there isn't even a question, and for the last 30 years there hasn't been one, and there shouldn't be one now. Even if LBJ wins two more it doesn't matter. He still lost six!!! Conversation should be over right there in terms of being the goat. he is many other things and any of his accomplishments will likely be unsurpassed for many years to come..... but he can't and won't ever be the greatest of all time on just that statistic alone PERIOD.
@LEX your naming one statistic that LeBron has over Michael that is so specific? We can name thousands of circumstances like you just mentioned. LeBron has more regular season wins at home then MJ or something like that.
lebron best of he’s era. mj best of his era. lbj better whole career coz mj suck at the wizards. mj more championships though and better individual record.
This goat debate is draining and pointless I believe it’s two sides in the sand and everybody has their minds made up already and neither side will change
If Lebron gets to 6 some will change. If he gets to 7 most will change. but we're talking about man winnign 4 rings after the age of 35 to change minds so ya backs up your point if anything. I don't rule it out though. Especially if he takes less money on his next contract.
In 11 full seasons. Didnt play much in 86 due to the leg injury and in 95 came back for the last 17 games and wasn't in basketball shape and that hurt him late in games.
He did what because he scored efficiently. Dude Riley/Krauss built a team which allowed people like Jordan to succeed. There are way more stats Lebron wins against Jordan. One important stat, Win Loss %.....Lebron beats MJ. Clutch in playoffs, Lebron wins again. Lebron won with 3 different teams so you can definitively say Lebron is the main reason for those teams winning. Jordan had Pippen and Pat Riley.....hmmmmm Jordan went Washington and what happened. You have to take the totality and not just the 6 seasons he did well.
@SPACE•TIME Come on man, every single MJ haters talk about it, the thing is nobody talk about how terrible his team and how great his opponent at those first round sweep
@@connoryu5906 they did. The 97 bulls won 69 games 2nd best ever, he led the league in scoring, Karl Malone won MVP on the 64 win Jazz. Imagine the Lakers winning 69 games and Lebron not winning. It would never happen
I will quote one of my favorite all time greats, Hakeem Olajuwon: When people start comparing him with Jordan, then that’s not a fair comparison. Jordan was a far more superior player in a very tough league, and he was very creative. That’s not taking away anything from LeBron because he is a great player, but it is not a fair comparison because Jordan is a far superior player.” Hakeem Olajuwon, via CNBC
Hakeem has to say that tho. If Jordan's legacy is lowered in any way, then all of the greats who played during Jordan's era also shine a little less. Bottom line: there's no way to have this conversation in an objective manner.
@@isiahdaniels4295 The stats tell you who is the GOAT! It is and will always be Michael Jordan! MJ never referred to himself as the Goat! He didn't have to because his game spoke louder than words. LeBron James is constantly trying to convince people he's the Goat! A real Goat doesn't do that. LBJ is very insecure to be as talented as he is which is why so many people have said LeBron always lacked that killer mentality like MJ. He won't catch MJ in stats because LBJ will never win 2 olympic gold medals on top of everything else!
Ricardo Milos for me lebron isn’t number two either. You have certainly bill russel, but also kobey, magic. A lot of players who played both say kobe instead of lebron. I think players should say who’s best. Especially who played with or against them. Not the media.
That's a good point. When people mention winning a title trapped in the bubble, (living in the lap of luxury, btw), was difficult. Let'em know what the older generation went through.
@@jonathanblaze1648 COULDN'T EVEN EAT IN A RESTAURANT IN BOSTON WHILE WINNING 11 STRAIGHT...But this is the toughest year huh...N I'm Lakernation from the womb...
@@Polo34 I'm not sure why they mention Russell. He was a good player BUT let's be honest here, he had a team full of HOF & ALL STARS. Oh yeah, he also had a HOF coach too! U also take into consideration that the NBA only had 8-12 teams at that time. So he's disqualified from GOAT status
Young people who weren't around watching basketball simply don't understand what kind of a beast Jordan was when he played. He was simply an unstoppable force. He was a phenomenon. Killer instinct. Very efficient. He stopped playing for 2 years to try out professional baseball because he got bored winning championships. He came back and continued to win 3 more championships in a row!
He was the first of his kind back then and it amazed everyone. Nowadays someone does the stuff he did and its like ok that was expected cause Jordan did it. Jordan would get smashed in the league today because he couldn't keep up with all the Jordan copiecats. Just looked a Kobe almost an exact replicate only he was even better! Scored 81 in a game.
No like I explained to a lot of people to say such a thing is a bit cocky and going too far..I'd much rather put it this way MJ is the reigning and ongoing goat no argument with that, but we can't for tell the future and who's yet to come so we need to realize this truth my friend
Yea when you play against a minimum number of black guys until the 90s. MJ played no one like him for 8 years. He had to step back when players like Penny grant hill AI Kobe Bron came in jumping higher
Almost 7 minutes it takes to just say Jordan the GOAT. No one touches Jordan. This argument as to stop. And I’m not a Jordan fan boy either it’s just the truth.
@@gavinoctavien1400 except lebron has better overall career stats than kobe. Obviously the big factor in calling kobe great was that he proved he could win a championship without shaq, but lebron has proved with ar worse teams on multiple occasions that he is essentially all a team needs to make the finals
@@aaronbeasley5474 u can’t make this argument, lebron joined a super team in miami to win 2 of his chips (one of those finals he lost to the Dallas mavericks and severely underperformed). In Cleveland he had kyrie who was scoring at a very similar clip to lebron, Kevin love, and some good role players. Lebron then needed a top 3 player in the nba in AD to come to LA to beat a mediocre team like the heat. Know the facts before u make a statement.
I always prefered Barkley and pippen... Barkley has same brutal honesty i have and scottie has same bday as me.. Both who i thought were 'nice guys' (like LBJ fanbase). But lets be real...dont make them automatically better than MJ.
@@wisconsinbadger5948 and he still picked Clippers and the Bucks to play in the finals after injuries and the pandemic. Everyone dealt with the pandemic, and it was the same amount of time off before the teams that made the bubble had to go there.
@Kyng Symba No you stop. Its facts, its not a knock against the championship but to sit there and act like NONE of that actually factored into this in some way is just idiotic
The thing we miss in all of this is that we never had to have these conversations with Jordan. We saw him play and just knew he was the greatest player we've ever seen. He was just that far ahead of everyone else. He was different. Lebron is amazing, truly one of the greatest of all times, but you don't watch him play and feel like you haven't seen it before. My thing has always been this: If you're playing a pickup game and you're team captain... you can pick from any NBA players in their prime. Are you picking Lebron, knowing that means the other team gets Jordan?
For me you can never compare jordan to anybody, the way he impacted this game. Man the way people were glued watching him. It was magical and poetry in motion. Era before is way different now. How they defend how physical it was. I dunno how mj survived with detroit and knicks. Thats why numbers are up man, its a soft era now. You can never compare.
thats the main difference between MJ and Lebron. MJ defers to history of the sport and will not proclaim himself the greatest whereas Lebron calls himself the goat and gets mad when its questioned. If you have to say it yourself its more than likely not true.
@@cuppal1969 i never knew as an nba player or better yet in life, that it is bad to claim u are the best to do something ... is it bad for someone to be confident in their abilities?
@@_jiquan_ Highly egotistical is what it is and it gives off a very selfish and negative vibe you can't deny that..Lebron gotta be humble wit it just go pull up the interview he was preachin tellin everybody "I AM THE GOAT"
@@thephoenix8090 You can’t change the minds of people who believe Lebron is the GOAT and you can’t change the minds of people who believe Jordan is the GOAT. It’s all opinions.
@@suxgaming1273 lol...boring. Yeh a player that can play every position which Jordan cannot boring. Weakness....what weakness. Free throws is the only weakness. Dont even give me clutch shooting because he out performs Jordan in that. Mid range jump shots, he won matches with those. Rebounds.... hmmmm..Assists.....hmmmmm. You hear it in the media and judge it.
@@justinnguyen1395 Jordan had the greatest team ever really your acting like they were superteam from the start i ask you who was phil jackson before jordan??? Who was pippen before jordan?? They became a great team now with Lebron wade was a champion already and bosh an all star so he created a superteam.Also Eric spolstra will go down as a HOF coach
That’s a good point. I like lebron but numbers don’t lie and you can’t erase finals losses. It’s ok to have confidence in yourself but his ego is why I think most don’t like him.
A lot of you are saying, “he picked what favors Jordan” like bro.. what other categories matter in a goat debate? lol NBA titles MVP’s Finals MVP’s DPOY (We won’t even count scoring titles. Even though that’s been the leading stat for YEARS when counting AST/RBD/STL’s).The criteria is still fair, y’all just biased for y’all guy and don’t wanna accept facts 💯
It’s not an unbiased metric for goat. Not at all. It favors scorers when you put “scoring titles”. If you want unbiased , you also add: TRB champion, AST champion, STL champion & BLK champion. Because it encompasses everything. Either that or remove the criteria if you want “unbiased, no feelings”
I hear you, but alright here then this is for you to take note my friend..these records here show the expanse of MJ's career NBA Records in its totality...Yes there are areas Lebron exceeds MJ as there are areas Kobe exceeds MJ, as there are areas Lebron exceeds Bird and, Lebron exceeds Magic and so on it's just the way sports work..obviously there will be areas a great athlete is superior to the other, but when all is said and done it boils down to their entire resume.. Michael Jordan set many NBA records in his career, most of them related with points because MJ was a scoring machine... Record: scoring average NBA Finals 41.0 (1993) Record: Regular Season Career Scoring average 30.1 Points per game in Playoffs, career average 33.4 Record: NBA Scoring Titles 10 (1987-93, 1996-98) Record: Consecutive NBA Scoring Titles 7 (1987-93) Record: most points in a playoff game 63 (against Boston on May 20, 1986, first round) Record: most Finals MVP 6 (1991-93, 1996-98) Record: All-Defensive First Team 9 (1988-93, 1996-98) Record: total points, playoffs, career 5,987 * Record: Field Goals Attempted, playoffs 4,497 Record: Free Throws Made, playoffs 1,463 Record: Consecutive games with 10 or more points 866 2 slam dunk chips..Lebron 0 Chicago Bulls Records The Bulls had a poor history before Michael Jordan arrived. He made them known around the world and of course he holds the Bulls' records in almost all the categories. These are some of them... Record: total points, career, regular season 29,277 Record: scoring average, career, regular season 31.5 And the list go on, he leads the Bulls in: FGA: 21686 FGM: 10962 FTA: 8115 FTM: 6798 Games: 930 Min: 35887 Def. Reb: 4289 Tot Reb: 5836 Assists: 5012 Steals: 2306 Turnovers: 2589 All-Star Game Records Michael Jordan was the star among the stars, so he could be not out of an All-Star records sheet. Record: most points, All-Star Game, career 262 Record: most field goals attempted, career 233 Record: most field goals made, career 110 Record: most field goals attempted, game 27 (2003) Record: total steals, career 37 Number of times MJ scored 50 or more points 38 games game high 69... Number of times Lebron scored 50 or more points 13 games game high 61.. MJ 6-0 finals = 100% win rate Lebron 4-6 finals = 40% win rate MJ is the reigning and ongoing 🐐 Although I respect Lebron being a great player and an absolute legend he just does not have the resume to challenge MJ as the goat yes he's got his areas where he's greater no doubt but overall MJ's achievements truly overshadows Lebron's..he got a wayys to go he still be chasing
@@boogalooak47 Lol yes go right on ahead I appreciate if you do..Bro it's a fun thing educating minds and these truths of mine are undeniable, if someone wants to debate them just request Lebron's resume that's all they'll have no say 👨🏾🏫👍🏾
@2pacKobe Hussle Kobe clearly had a weakness and that was his iq. He took so many bad shots. That’s why he has the most misses in nba history. Jordan also didn’t involve his teammates as well as others, which could have hindered his play if it wasn’t for illegal defense
Lol by this metric Bill should hop MJ considering how easily he could have been counted as finals MVP for most of Celts earlier chips, furthermore the award is named after dude lol
@Reese B Not really. The championship ring says that your team was the best team that year, and you played a part in that. MVP and finals MVP means that you were the best player on the team, and then came through as the best player when everything on the line. LeBron is a great basketball player. But Jordan outshines him, always will.
@Reese B True, but this topic they are trying to solve is G.O.A.T. That's greatest player, not greatest team. If it's team, Russell's Celtics win all day long.
Thats bull because Lebron got screwed in at least 5 of those MVPs. Behave yourself. Also even the final mvps, the teams he lost against....he was the real mvp. Check the stats and impact.
One emotional component that I always think about with Jordan vs LeBron... When Jordan was playing, whether you rooted for him or against him, in crunch time when he had the ball in his hands, you knew he was going to make that shot. Now, he didn't always make the shot, but if you were watching you thought he would. I've never had that same feeling about LeBron. As impressive as he is and has been... I've never been watching a game in crunch time and "knew" he was going to make the shot. And LeBron has made those shots too... it's just a vibe. I always got that vibe with Jordan, I don't with LeBron. I can't even explain it... but it's real.
i know exactly what you mean. it wasnt just the fact that he was head and shoulders above everybody else with his game, jordan's approach and character made you "know" that he was making that shot.
@@punisher_004 I haven't crunched the numbers but LeBron has definitely been in more finals than Jordan, most likely more playoff games as a result too... so he's bound to have more shots and more makes. My post wasn't to diminish LeBron... just to note that my gut reaction to the two players is opposite. Drop me into the final possession of a game with either LeBron or Jordan ball-in-hand, and I feel more confident that Jordan is going to hit that shot. I'm not saying LeBron can't or won't... just that my gut gives me more confidence in Jordan. IF we compared performance stats or athletic ability, LeBron has a clear edge in a lot of categories. I'd hesitate to take Jordan over LeBron one-on-one too, because LeBron is just bigger than Jordan. But none of that changes the gut feeling, and I can't explain it but it is there.
Michael Jordan is the GOAT & LeBron knows it he doesn't want to talk about it because he even know he's not the GOAT he's a phenomenal player he's just not over Jordan for the GOAT title sorry
@@foursup3139 If it's the media job then why was LeBron on his show The Shop discussing him being the GOAT LeBron never pass up an opportunity to brag on himself look at the tweets between him and Brady LeBron just don't want people to kill him for calling himself the GOAT like he did on his show doesn't have nothing to do with the media and most people have Jordan as the GOAT anyway
Robert Horry has 7 finals wins and zero losses, and also has played a vital part and hit big shots em route to winning those championships. He might be higher than Mike if that’s the case.
WE CAN NOT RECONCILE THAT GOAT ISSUE DEBATE I GUESS. NEVER. WHY? BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GREATEST OF ALL TIMES . THAT MEANS FOREVER .THERE IS NO SUCH THING. GREATEST OF HIS OWN TIMES ? YES ITS POSSIBLE. THAT IS WHY ALL THOSE WHOM WE'VE MENTION ARE GOHOTs- GREATEST OF THEIR OWN TIMES. NO ONE IS GOAT. BUT THERE ARE GOHOTs.
@@zaireriggins7877 bro Jordan has more fmvps, more MVPs, more scoring titles, more defensive selections and defensive titles, more rings, it's truly no debate, only thing LeBron wins in is more triple doubles and that's it
Well let's be very honest about this G.O.A.T. conversation between LeBron James and Michael Jordan. Let's keep this realistic if Michael Jordan would have played for 18 years what would his stats and accolades have look like I'm just going to leave it right there
@@uncleiroh7967 The point is even with MJ leaving basketball for those years, his stats are still better than LeBron James. LeBron can never surpass MJ's stats because on top of everything else, he'll never win 2 olympic gold medals; never!
@@americat3623 LeBrons is responsible for more points per games. Points plus assists. Lebron has more rebounds, more steals, more blocks. In regular season and playoffs. That's a fact. MJ quit twice. Trust mj fans to use mj quitting against lebron 🤣🤣🤣
@@uncleiroh7967 and how many times has Le4-6 quit? When you leave a team because you feel you can't win there,(yet you're supposed to be the best ever)you are a quitter. Le4-6 quits on teams and his teammates instead of staying and figuring out a way to win, once he feels he can't win with the lakers, he will quit again, maybe it will be for good.
So true. And of course he wont be able to extend it (mj years) playing coz 1. Its far more brutal on mjs era watch how he plays against detroit how brutal they were 2. No load management he completes all his games man. No comparison man, with this softie era thats why all their numbers are up
My criteria is Impact: How did you change the way the game is played or viewed. Awards/Merits: Rings, MVPs, DPoY, All-NBA etc Stats/Production: Traditional + Advanced Skill: Overall ability on offense + defense
PER rating in the playoffs I think is probably the most important stat. Lebron was behind by 0.2 before this year. When its updated he'll be behind 0.06. Couldn't be closer!
@nabil chowdhury Also if assited 3s count for more than assisted 2s as they should (if you've two open guys in each corner one just inside one just outside the 3 you should pass to the guy outside even though he'll make it less often so it's the worse PER decision) then LeBron would already be ahead. Not to mention the pass leading to free throws i.e. when a player about to dunk is hammered.
The man basically won the scoring title just about every season of his career. And even though I think Jalen shows some great factors to determine the greatest of all time in the NBA I would have added NBA defensive first team of which Jordan had 10 and LeBron has five. Even though Jordan wins this match up easily, the only argument we ever need is that the best player of all time cannot have lost more championships than he has won.... There can only one greatest of all time and Batman must be held to the highest of scrutiny. A player can have no rings and still be somewhere in the top 10 players of all time and have many other accolades. but we're talking about the one and only best of the best, and remember this is not baseball, football or soccer that has 15 players on each team on the field. This is five on five where one man does have the ability, the killer instinct, to completely take over a game or a series and win it all. (And MJ came through every single time) Even if LBJ wins two more it doesn't matter. He still lost six!!! Conversation should be over right there in terms of being the goat. he is many other things and many of his accomplishments will likely be unsurpassed for many years to come..... And he should be known as having the greatest NBA career of all time because he deserves that. But besides everything that Jalen just posted, LBJ isn't and will never be the greatest of all time because he cannot surpass MICHAEL JORDAN mainly based on that finals losses statistic. But he's not the assassin MJ was when it counted. He was an assassin at certain points but fell short many times when MJ never did. And one thing people don't talk about that doesn't determine the goat but it's still important and that's the fact that LBJ didn't ruin careers and steal Glory from dozens of Hall of famers during his 15 years. No rings for Malone Stockton, Barkley Ainge, Ewing Starks, R.Miller, Kemp Peyton, entire cavs lineup twice.... All because of Michael Jordan...no rings. He instilled fear in some of the best players ever and his 6 rings (and their lack of any) likely still haunt them to this day. LeBron never impacted players lives and legacies like that . Ever!
You said it perfectly my friend. So many great players are ringless because off this man and he could have easily gone 8 for 8 putting Olajuwon on that list.
Its not everyday that u find someone who argues with logic. Good to know there's some guys out there. I have nothing against Bron. He's top 6 all time. ALL TIME. And people are upset that he's not number 1? That shows u they're emotional, and not logical.
@@ohmadamn thanks brother. I think all of us who think that MJ ( or actually know) MJ is the goat are a little bit older and use logic instead of ego. Plus we saw the magic of him playing. We saw the absolute killer that he was. The career killer. So I don't blame the younger guys for being all about LeBron because if I grew up only watching LeBron, I would think no one could have been better than him either. Except MJ was so much better than everyone else. Just like Larry Bird said after Jordan scored 63 on the Celtics "God disguised as Michael Jordan" and Magic Johnson said " there's Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us." And all those poor Hall of famers who never got a ring because of him. They're all haunted by Jordan's ghost. LeBron never had that impact on players legacies. But he is on the Mount Rushmore, and I believe he's still the best player in the NBA at 35 after watching what he did during the playoffs. I don't know why people take offense to me calling someone the second best professional basketball player ever in the history of the game
@@Daveyboy_RS3 💯 agreed. He's on the Mt Rushmore. But he ain't the GOAT. He's definitely #2, or #3 depending on peoples criteria. Just saw a video of Jalen Rose(another logical dude) setting a standard to measure the GOAT-ness.
The stats, accolades, achievements, brand Jordan don't lie... he is and will always be the most competitive, most dominant, most feared man to ever play on a basketball court. Enough about LBJ...
@C A P no one has to even know Lebron to answer the GOAT question. Lebron is great in HIS era among HIS peers. There is no comparison. Lebron and many others exists because of MJ. Their own words.
@Ramses Stafford Ah the good old finals arguement! I guess its better to lose against the Celtics and Pistons in the first round then losing against the Warriors with Dellavedova as your second best player. Lebron's 4 rings and 10 final appearances are more impressive to me then Jordans 6-0. The consistency and longevity level of pure greatness that Lebron has displayed over 17 years hasn't ever been seen. Jordan and Lebron are 1a and 1b. It's ridiculous people use finals losses against an all time stacked warriors squad and a 2007 loss where he went up against 4 hall of famers lead by a top 7 player of all time against him. Nah. Try again.
The idea that a guy can have 1 bad finals out of 10 that ruins his legacy is a very poor argument. All 9 other Finals LeBron played brilliant. The Dallas series should count against him, but What about the other 9 appearances? Without the Dallas one, he has never lost when not playing against a dynasty or with significant injuries on his own team (or both in 2014 and 2015). If you want it to disqualify him, I don't see why. 1 bad series at 26 makes a guy's career? Come on.
MJ is beyond criteria.. his performance connects all the dots and nothing is lacking. unlike any goat wannabes, you can only appreciate limited features that are even sometimes inconsistent. MJ always had consistent dominance over whoever the opponent was. MJ goat all day.
So where was his performance the years he didn't win a title when he couldn't beat Boston and Detroit y'all basing this off 6 years it's evident u don't know basketball
@@mayanward979 no need to troll bossman, all basketball players have their low years just like MJ. i am speaking for their prime years. obviously you just hatin the facts. move on brothah! =) now dont go trolling again coz youre offended.. coz it doesnt matter to me. thanks though for making me the highlight of your day. =)
@@mayanward979 Even when he was losing he was performing well , it was just he had a trash team and went against a team of HOFs . His statline says that.
@@RobOn85South he beat the warriors but he lost to them too. Mike didn’t lose in the Finals bro. How could the teams he faced lack talent? Reggie, Ewing, Barkley, Malone all are ringless thanks to Mike and the list goes on you’re buggin
MJ played with out a physical big man the first 3 championships in a more physical league that was built for the BIG MEN to dominate with MORE skilled BIGS then any other era (Olajuwon, Ewing, Kareem, David Robinson, YOUNG SHAQ just to name a few and they all protect the rim) Also remember hand checking was allowed so there was no ticky tac fouls like today where if you sweat on a guy you fouled him, guards could pick u up full court defensively and no 3 in the key rule so bigs could actually camp out and wait for MJ unlike today where the paint is wide open to drive with NO "PAINT DEFENDERS" JORDAN DOMINATED THAT ERA.... Let's not forget Jordan never won a title with the type of talent Lebron has won with. Pippen was probably one of the best side kicks, you couldn't built a team around him like the sidekicks Lebron had (D. Wade, Kyrie Irving, AD)... Pippen played the heck out of his role but let's be honest who was Pippen before Jordan pushed him and how great was Pippen after Jordan retired??? In Houston and in Portland he still couldn't lead a team to a championship with multiple stars and HOF next to him. SO this is why to me Jordan is the GOAT among many other reasons I didn't bring up like playing against some of the greatest dynasties of all time SHOWTIME LAKERS, BIRD CELTICS, BAD BOY PISTONS just to name a few
Karaitiana Aranui jordan went to the finals 6 times and won all 6,not 1,not 2,not 3, not 4, not 5 but 6 and you saying why he didn’t go to more, like jordan himself said”I just run out of time”. Just saying
lebron came straight out of highschool so of course it took him longer 😂😂 . MJ learned under the greatest coaches all time so of course. Name 1 HOF coach lebron ever had... I'LL WAIT.
@@sliferxxxx correct, but the luxury MJ had that Lebron didn't. HOF COACHING HOF SIDEKICK in his prime and a Team built TOP to BOTTOM with Cs Stretch 4s and wing defenders ... Luxuries Bron never had. So of course.
@@RobOn85South name a time MJ disappeared in the NBA finals?? 12 full seasons, 6 championships, 10 scoring titles etc. Got humiliated in 1990, came back the next season and ended Isaiah's career. Just returned from retirement and lost to SHAQ and Penny, retooled and swept them out of the playoffs the next season aka as the greatest season of all-time. ....
*COUNTER-ARGUMENT TO JALEN ROSE:* 1) *Faulty Criteria:* The DPOY, MVP and Finals MVP are political in nature due to being voted on like a popularity contest. They are not actual measurements of individual performance based on a set criteria, which allows some biased individuals to choose a person on his or her own preference instead of on a rational standard. 2) *NBA Title.* NBA Title wins does not mean the individual was superior, but that a given team was better against another specific team. Again, we want to measure how great an individual performed, not how well his team performed against another in one series of games. 3) *Scoring Title.* a) *Stat Tracking.* The NBA also tracks rebounding, assists, blocks, steals and win shares. The scoring title award is based on the highest average of points a player has over the total number of games played. The problem is that Jalen intentionally uses scoring as a the metric to benefit Michael Jordan, while purposefully failing to add rebounding or assists, even though all of the players under consideration for GOAT played different positions which emphasize dominance in different skills (e.g., points for Guard, rebounding for Center). I would argue that *_Career Win Shares_* are more important than points alone because it calculates how important a player was to his team winning. b) *Games played.* The other weakness by using the average is that it allows a player who played fewer games (e.g., 20 games) but scored higher each game (e.g. 20 points) to retain a competitive position relative to a guy who played 75 games but scored consistently between 12-25 points a night during all games. Essentially, one player's contributions were more valuable for the whole season while the other player's points helped in fewer matchups.
Tbh the more awards , stats or analytics you use the worst it gets for Bron as MJ is no1 in almost everything and has all the top games etc. Bron leads longevity by a landslide and is great for triple doubles though ill give him that.
That G.O.A.T criteria is lacking. If stats are in the equation, you can't just have scoring titles. You should add: - points per game - total points - assists per game - total assists - rebounds per game - total rebounds - blocks per game - total blocks - steals per game - total steals - FG% - 3pt% - FT% All these for both regular season and Playoffs. Also: - All NBA selections - All defense selections - All-Star selections - total games played (RS & Playoffs)
problem with this is it takes average of all games you have played, so it will include jordan's and lebron's start to their career where they obv werent as good, as well as jordan's end. also there are too many metrics, how would you determine in the end who is better, you wouldnt be able to do it solely on who wins more of the criteria, because clearly some of the criteria should be weighted higher than others. but yeah i agree they should have added maybe 1 or 2 more important metrics, like steal leader, block leader and assist leader
Take the word "total" out of you criteria, thats empty longevity stats, if MJ cared about longevity he would not have retired twice including one time during his prime.
@@koasizmworld1927 I couldn't disagree more. Longevity is synonymous with commitment, discipline and maximum effort. Those are highly respectable attributes. Longevity is why Brady & Kareem & CR7 & Federer are such legends. It's why LeBron won this year. The truth is MJ played 10 years at the top level and called it a day. That's a valid knock on his legacy, even though I still got him #1
@@laughingbehelit yeah imagine if MJ cared about longevity, he would b untouchable.. But my point is about there game, how good they are ar scoring or defending etc, longevity doesnt determine ur avg scoring or avr steals etc
@@alecxantv4981 ikr it's just the kids because they grew up with Lebron's greatness and want him to be the best there ever was..they shut everyone else of the equation 🤦🏾♂️
@@sanantoballa4834 never that's great🙌, the matter here is that Jordan's numbers in 15 years are bigger than LeBron's in 17, jordan is #1 PPR, #1 PPG, 10 Times the best scorer, 1 BDPOY, 5 MVP, 6 MVP finals, 6 rings, all that in 15 years, unbelievable man 🥶🤯 ..lebron james is #2 in turnsovers of all times in the league almost #1 with 4,424 that's a really negative rank, Jordan just commited 2,977 turnsovers in his career, it means jordan's hands were more secure than lebron's, jordan was a very clutch player when needed, lebron has never been a clutch player that's why he lost 6 finals, the truth here is comparing LJ wiht MJ is just a joke...
@@alecxantv4981 - Actually by his 11th full year, Jordan already had 6 rings, 6 finals mvps. 10 scoring titles. DPOY. x3 steals titles etc etc etc. Lebron wasn't even close to sniffing that in 11 years. The debate has never been close.
@@Gg-et8gp Nope we can make Number of triple doubles Total points scored Total assist made Total rebounds ... All comes under basketball .. I beleive MJ is goat.. But this list is just unfair 😅
No one is taking anything away from Lebron, he's a great player. However, the "GOAT" is MJ, even if Lebron wins 10 championships and passes MJ's 6, (1)it took Lebron longer (2) MJ had two 3peats (3) MJ is 6/6 in Finals, 6/6 finals MVP and has never went to a game 7. So this whole lot of talk of he has more work to do is not holding water for me. Thats just my honest opinion.
When I think of the GOAT, I think of a player who dominated the game with so much finesse and style. Who’s game impacted generations. Who globalized NBA basketball’s popularity. Who was a childhood (and grown up) superhero for anyone who ever cared a single bit about basketball. The GOAT conversation is not about numbers. It’s about what you did beside those numbers. You have to have insane stats for sure. But nobody cares about Lebron James who doesn’t play the game. Or doesn’t watch it. When Michael Jordan was playing, the WHOLE WORLD knew who he was, and he straight up DOMINATED every other aspect of LIFE. Not just basketball. Michael Jordan is unique and there never be another one like him. Just his presence. Even a mere thought about him makes me shiver cause his goatness. Noone can come close.
No, the All-time scoring list doesnt necessarily mean you were a great scorerer. You could average 20 points for 20 seasons and crack the top 10 All time scoring. Thats shows longevity but actually leading the league in scoring shows a dominance in that area
@@darryla13 But scoring doesn’t necessarily lead to winning. Look at harden or melo. Just this year Beal, young, booker all averaged 27+ and didn’t make the playoffs
@@Half_Full-Since96 and that's what i try to tell y'all about lebron numbers lol all his numbers def doesn't mean he is gonna win and when he tries to do everything it takes away from everyone else that's lebron gift and curse. It's hard for him to co exist because he won't focus on one area. Mike scored defended. Because that's basketball offense defense lebron does so much just to lose and you all blame his teammates for not playing when he has the ball 90% of the time because he passing to somebody to assist he is scoring and rebounding which has him 4-10 and a bunch of excuses from his fans
When the lights were the brightest and the stage was the biggest MJ was at his best, the same can not be said for LeBron. He had two terrible finals series against San Antonio in 2007 and Dallas in 2011. Those are the two biggest reasons why he will never surpass MJ as the GOAT.
@@Dplayer-g1l The main difference is, Jordan never played poorly in a playoff series, let alone the finals. LeBron was awful in the 2007 series against the Spurs and again against Dallas in 2011. You can't call yourself the best player ever and avg 17 points in a finals loss. It's not taking anything away from him, he has learned from those losses and become an amazing player now, but those 2 series will always hold him back.
@@jimcosta9631 I’m happy for you to claim Bill Russell as 🐐 if you want. It’s just a tough sell considering there was something like 10 teams in the league at the time and he played on stacked teams including 5 hall of famers.
What about assists? I mean would you rather do it yourself or rely on another person. Plus.. Jordan assist average is only about 2 shy of lebron. So whatever
@@Khanvict08 Lebron is first pass guy yet averages 27.4 ppg for his career only 3 pts less than Jordan which makes lebrons ppg average that much more impressive.......
@@Khanvict08 about two assists doesn't sound like a lot but, it's a pretty big difference. In only about two extra seasons LeBron has almost doubled Jordan in total assists.
Lebron averages 1.9 more assists than Jordan for their careers...lol 1.9 and LeBron’s play style is to control ball and the facilitating. You have to count these factors because having more numbers does not equate to being better.
@@ng7214 how are you pass first if he’s 3 points away from Jordan😂😂😭 he’s not pass first he’s .7 higher then Bird and 2.0 higher then Jordan... NOT PASS FIRST IF YOU AVG 27-7-7
@@Madmax_sports well, his criteria is valid as those stats are the most important as to how dominant you were as a player. All time stats just proves longevity. Doesn’t necessarily mean you are great.
@@tyrionlannister8 Not really, both LeBron and Jordan should have more MVP's. Finals MVP are also questionable at times... Igoudala 2015. Scoring titles is not the only way to be dominant. Assist, Rebounding, Blocks, Steals can also control a game.
all i can say my humble opinion...if lebron transform cavs in his rookie yr till now and lebron leaves cavs with 5 or 6 champs well we can talk about it..MJ transformed the bulls into DYNASTY!
If they had DPOY was around before 83 Kareem would have had 4 of the 5 in his bucks title and he probably would have had multiple DPOY awards in the 1970s. I am from Chicago so I am obviously on MJs side but people don't give Kareem enough respect
Those 9 teams had some of the most dominant players in NBA history. Go look at when the league expanded in the 70's and look at who were the most dominant players from 70-76. Other than Kareem, all the other guys come from the 60's... Oscar, Wilt, Clyde, Reed, Hondo, Jerry West, Unseld etc...
Yes! Which means teams were that much deeper. Whereas now you literally have historically pathetic defenders making allstar teams and being voted mvp. Your argument is pathetic.
After combining all the criteria i got my conclusion on this.. Lebron is the Goat and MJ is very close second But i can understand if people put MJ over LBJ as well
It is not even close! The inconsistent performance of LJ, especially when he defenses. The altitude he had when he claimed himself as GOAT. A show on TV when he announced his trade? Come on man... So many flaws!
That’s a fact. He knows he ain’t better. It’s not even close. I don’t even know why people are comparing him to Jordan when he hasn’t surpassed Kobe in my opinion
@@ericduncan7421 LeBron is "better" because he's versatile and great in so many different stats, he can play all 5 positions. but LeBron would never beat MJ in a 1v1
Yea just pointing out LeBron has lost more than Won in Finals and because he is suppose to be the best and generational talent like MJ than alot of blame for the losses falls on him especially in Cleveland and the Dallas series with the Heat, that was his fault for quitting on his team mates. Something Jordan nor Bill Russell ever did
Jordan never quit on his teammates?!?! Yeah, he was really there for them in 1994 and 1995. How much did MJ help his Bulls teammates in 1999? Jordan quit 3 times and the first 2 of those are squarely on his shoulders. MJ’s NBA career spanned 19 years. He FAILED to get to the Finals in 13 of those. Four years because he was a quitter. Nine years because he couldn’t get his team to the Finals. How do you judge that as perfection?
Who set these criterias? Mvp? Scoring titles? DPOY? It’s comical what this guy said, if you say mvp’s should be the main criteria then Kobe is automatically ruled out if we say “you have to have 10 scoring titles to be the goat” then kareem is ruled out. jaylen just nitpicked every thing Jordan has over lebron. Since were setting criteria’s, here’s mine, longevity, all around dominance, leadership, accumulated stats, all nba teams, and all star appearances. I said all that to say this, there is no criteria for being the goat we’ve seen players dominating in ways we’ve never seen before, at the end of the day it’s just your preference.
It will tho especially when the FACTS start rolling out...... Just check all the recent ESPN videos where people still dropping Jordan bombs & check the dislikes........ Alot of feelings getting hurt out here 🤣😂🤣
@@oblivionpro69 looking at the players LeBron HAD to team up with to win titles will hurt LeBron fans feelings..... We can do this all night but you gonna run out of ammo WAY BEFORE I even get half way done
@C A P didn't need as much help as LeBron because Jordan won a title without a single all star teammate on his team..... Let me know when LeBron pull that one off
Lebron is a way better defender, regardless of him not winning dpoy because he has to go up against way better competition than mj did and scottie pippen was a better defender than mj and he never won a dpoy. Mj only played defense against guards, like isiah Thomas and john stockton while lebron can guard all 5 positions
@@roshawnterry1929 THANK YOU! The media narrative bs with him guarding all 5 positions need to stop. He runs away from guarding elite players at his own position so that's a lie every time I hear it.
@@benenders6920 Lebron can only defend people smaller than him. Stop kidding yourself. Don't act like Lebron would be able to defend truly skilled or big players. What happened every time Lebron played against Durant ? Durant dropped 30+ averaging 50-40-90 type numbers.
Assists are overinflated stat. They require someone else to make the shot. Basketball points matter, followed by defense. Rebounds after that. Assists are at the bottom.
because an assist relies mainly on the teammates ability to score. And what percentage of assists are simple hand offs to a very good scorer? How is that making the guy who passed it great in any way?
There are probably a handful of teams that can be a toss up of the greatest teams/coach combos of all time ....LeBron had to face two of them for a total of 7 times (warriors and spurs)...none of which were his teams favored to win the series (he lost 5 of them) his teams were favored in the other 3 (mavs, thunder, heat) which he won 2 of those 3 matchups. The one hiccup he and his team had was the loss against the mavs...and the 3-1 comeback against the warriors was epic even with the draymond suspension. So, out of 10 finals, he had one inexcusable loss. Also, injuries to love and irving def have him no shot in one of the series. Jordans finals opponents were good yes obviously, but they weren't dynasties like the warriors and spurs who dominated for long stretches and won multiple rings. Jordans routes to the finals were definitely harder than most of lebron's however. Both players are phenomenal, but the finals records shouldn't be what decides who is better. Jordan was a better scorer and a more consistent elite defender, but bron can guard all positions when necessary and is/was elite at defense in his prime as well. He also can rebound way better and his passing in my opinion is top 3 all time with magic and stockton. Overall with statistics, LeBron will dwarf most of MJs stats and you can easily make an argument either way on who was the overall best player.
Alright here then this is for you to take note my friend..these records here show the expanse of MJ's career NBA Records in its totality...Yes there are areas Lebron exceeds MJ as there are areas Kobe exceeds MJ, as there area areas Lebron exceeds Bird and, Lebron exceeds Magic and so on it's just the way sports work..obviously there will be areas a great athlete is superior to the other, but when all is said and done it boils down to their entire resume.. Michael Jordan set many NBA records in his career, most of them related with points because MJ was a scoring machine... Record: scoring average NBA Finals 41.0 (1993) Record: Regular Season Career Scoring average 30.1 Points per game in Playoffs, career average 33.4 Record: NBA Scoring Titles 10 (1987-93, 1996-98) Record: Consecutive NBA Scoring Titles 7 (1987-93) Record: most points in a playoff game 63 (against Boston on May 20, 1986, first round) Record: most Finals MVP 6 (1991-93, 1996-98) Record: All-Defensive First Team 9 (1988-93, 1996-98) Record: total points, playoffs, career 5,987 * Record: Field Goals Attempted, playoffs 4,497 Record: Free Throws Made, playoffs 1,463 Record: Consecutive games with 10 or more points 866 Chicago Bulls Records The Bulls had a poor history before Michael Jordan arrived. He made them known around the world and of course he holds the Bulls' records in almost all the categories. These are some of them... Record: total points, career, regular season 29,277 Record: scoring average, career, regular season 31.5 And the list go on, he leads the Bulls in: FGA: 21686 FGM: 10962 FTA: 8115 FTM: 6798 Games: 930 Min: 35887 Def. Reb: 4289 Tot Reb: 5836 Assists: 5012 Steals: 2306 Turnovers: 2589 All-Star Game Records Michael Jordan was the star among the stars, so he could be out of an All-Star records sheet. Record: most points, All-Star Game, career 262 Record: most field goals attempted, career 233 Record: most field goals made, career 110 Record: most field goals attempted, game 27 (2003) Record: total steals, career 37 Number of times MJ scored 50 or more points 38 games game high 69... Number of times Lebron scored 50 or more points 13 games game high 61.. MJ 6-0 finals = 100% win rate Lebron 4-6 finals = 40% win rate MJ is the reigning and ongoing 🐐 Although I respect Lebron being a great player and an absolute legend he just does not have the resume to challenge MJ as the goat yes he's got his areas where he's greater no doubt but overall MJ's achievements truly overshadows Lebron's..he got a wayys to go he still be chasing
Mj and other past greats like magic, bird, bill russell etc only truly played 13 or less seasons. Mj didn't play a full 15 seasons. Newer guys like kobe and lbj have longer careers. But less overall stats. They all also never played each other in their primes. Which mj has said many times. Therefore it's not a true goat. Mj is just the standard, outside of big men. Likely could've had more rings had Chicago been a competent front office?? He gave up a lot of good yrs to retirement (s)
so many points to tackle here. first LBJ has 2 inexcusable loses and one loss that is totally embarrassing and removes him from all GOAT talks. 2011 and 2014 in which the Spurs and Heat were both great teams but as the best player on both teams, LBJ should have carried his team to victory, something MJ would have done. You say MJ never had to face a "dynasty" but that was because MJ was the dynasty and the king of the hill, something LBJ should have been but instead he let many other teams win the ship over him. LBJ cannot guard all 5 positions. Stop it. that is new era slick talk that people tend to fall for. LBJ can not guard centers like Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem etc. LBJ is not even close to MJ as a defender. Rebounding and passing are much closer than you think. Please go back and watch MJ play. He could do everything on the court LBJ can do if he wanted to and if the team needed him to. LBJ cannot do everything MJ can do, especially hit last second shots with the game on the line. LBJ played in a softer era, had better medicine and info, and played longer. So of course his stat totals will be higher than MJs but averages, and rings, he still isnt close to MJ. He would need 19 seasons to match MJs output from 13 seasons. That tells you everything you need to know....
Scott Hinkens that paragraph represents your hand around lebron's shaft. Comparing James to Jordan is a joke. That criteria is how you separate men from boys. Basketball when simplified is about offense and defense.
Finally, finally the metric for the goat conversation and o f course James is NOT the goat, Not even Davis said it. Davis was asked in this interview if James was the goat and he said "hummm, its tough, Im from Chicago, that's tough" and on top of that you win a title against a team ,no disrespect, with no stars and a no body's team. You said it was tough and you asked for respect? Come on you clearly are NOT the goat. GOAT = Michael Jeffrey Jordan
Funny thing is even though Dwyane Wade is great friends with LeBron he said MJ is the goat the first thing Max said well Wade is from Chicago Lol.. well LeBron himself has spoken and I agree this is a played-out topic people will have their opinions the purists on either side isn't going to change their minds and by saying that one is the goat what is the benefit from it? People argue till they're blue in the face against someone who isn't going to change their mind but what is the reward waiting at the end of this debate nothing but a bunch of wasted time and air
I know a lot of people say “old heads don’t want their GOAT replaced” and that may be the case and I can see if you’re talking about Dr.J or Bird or Magic but bro, Michael Jordan is basketball personified.
I'm really trying here but no one's listening. Anyone who is stating reasons why Lebron is the goat wasn't around when MJ played. If I wasn't around when MJ played I'm sure I'd say the same as them. Even though they're so dead wrong. One of the guys I'm debating with told me that LeBron has won a ring with three different teams and MJ only with one team LOL. As if that's a good thing. They've got to be youngsters. Anyway we all know what's what
@@Daveyboy_RS3 Sorry DB330, but Lebron is the GOAT and it isn't even close. The talking TV heads never bring up this point - MJ was only successful because of the GREAT teammates he played with. Lebron NEVER had the same luxury until this last season. If you want to argue numbers, please don't because I will blow you away. By the way, I was THERE when MJ's Tarheels came into the Carrier Dome to play Syracuse, Dec. 10, 1983, so I watched his whole career. I used to think MJ was the greatest. He is not. He was entitled and made the most of the situation. The best analogy is Kawhi, playing for Toronto.
@@jtFacts77 That's an automatic L for you if you want to bring up Michael team-mates. Lebron has never taking a rookie under his wing and won with them. People act like Scottie Pippen came in the league as the best player. Lebron would have traded Pippen just like he did Wiggins. Lebron would have traded Anthony Davis if he was a rookie. Lebron played with all the top players of his draft in their prime and still lost to the Mavs.
@@jtFacts77 Dwyane Wade was a top five player when he played with him and Chris Bosh was an All-Star. That's all I have to say. LeBron also had Kyrie Irving (top 5 player who is likely the most naturally raw talent in the league, accompanied by another 6'10 🌟 Kevin Love (avg 20\11, who was a force on the glass and could also kill you with the three ball) in 2016 when Cleveland won the championship, and now that he's on New Jersey with KD, they are picked to win the East next year. And now he has AD who is the best pure scorer in the league from anywhere on the court at almost 6'11 who can also dive and dip and Euro step like he's half his size, a defensive force, an MVP caliber player, top 3 or 4 in the league. And he's playing with the best in the league. Just like Max kellerman said, when you take two top five MVP type players and put them on the same team, the odds are they will win a championship. Especially with all the injuries this season with the splash Brothers injured at Golden State and Kevin Durant injured as well in the east, it was a cakewalk for LA and should have been.
Don't get me wrong, LeBron was absolutely incredible this postseason and he completely dispatched every team like it was nothing. But they never came up on Milwaukee or the clippers which is a shame as they both choked. But yes, He is the greatest player on the court today at 35 years old and has the greatest NBA career of all time (some people might say Kareem) but that's not my fight. However after everything that I've written all day I'm kind of beat up LOL so I will say that they did take a survey of current NBA players and past NBA players, about who the goat is, Michael Jordan got 73% of the vote, LBJ got 13%, Kareem got six or seven percent, Kobe got I think five, Wilt and Russell got a couple. So as far as the NBA players are concerned MJ is the goat. If LeBron didn't lose six championships regardless of the situation or his teammates or his coach... (Everyone had situations and factors) the debate wouldn't be so cut and dry. If LeBron had won six or seven out of his ten visits to the finals, his legacy would definitely be elevated but it would still leave Jordan as the GOAT. I'm assuming that you did not grow up watching Michael Jordan and you did watch LeBron James. Like I've told others young guys, If I started watching basketball after MJ had long retired I would be right there with you because I couldn't imagine anyone being better than LeBron James. Anyway good talk I'm done for today LOL. I enjoy debating this anyway. Not going to put MJ stats up compared to lbj's to rub it in either.
@@quechyancummings8070 You must be a young boy, because you don't know your history. Pippen was in his 4th year when they won the championship. Also, you must think that Lebron was the GM when he first went to Cleveland. He wasn't. It took 7 years for Jordan to make the Finals with a STACKED roster. Lebron made the finals in his 4th year with a bunch of nobodies.
Lastly, Wade was on the downward trajectory in his career when Lebron came to Miami. He wasn't in his prime.
He also led the league in steals three seasons & was top 3 in like 8 seasons, led all guards in blocks a bunch of years, he was just as lethal on defense 🐐!!!
@Clan leader Predator I think when he referred to rebounds and steals it was as a shooting guard.
"There's MJ, then there's everyone else." - Magic
Magic Johnson:"Michael Jordan can do incredible moves, moves that I have never seen before, but nobody was better than Larry Bird, Larry Bird was the only player I feared."
He said king before Lebron debut lol
There's mj, there are all the plumbers he faced
@@dadillonful those plumbers would pipe LeBron raw
@dad...
Lol just so salty and frustrated
Jordan won the scoring title 10 times while missing 3 seasons out his prime : 1986, 1994, & 1995.
Cyber 6 sapien, in a nutshell considering Jordan played 14 seasons or so, he won the scoring championship every year he played a full season. And these are great factors to determine the greatest of all time in the NBA... Even though Jordan doesn't need the perfect championship record to be considered the goat, since he has LeBron on everyone of these factors and many more.... the only argument we ever need is that the player that is to be considered greatest of all time cannot have lost 4 finals in 5 years. Other important factors in being considered for the goat is leading, win at all costs (kobe, Jordan) and completely taking over in the clutch when it's all on the line. Those were not LeBrons strong suits throughout his career. And remember, There is only one GOAT so all of this has to be scrutinized. You can have no rings and still be a top 10 player of all time but not the goat because if you were the greatest of all time your basketball IQ would have figured out a way to get those rings. but we're talking about the one and only best of the best, and if somehow LeBron James does get named the official goat before he retires ... in the annals of history, many years after LeBron James has long retired, the fans and journalists will be absolutely bewildered at how LeBron James could have been considered the best of all time as opposed to Michael Jordan if he lost six out of 10 finals among everything else MJ has over him. And remember this isn't baseball or football that has 15 players on the field where you can only choose the best at each position. This is five on five where one man can take it upon himself to win the game or championship, or not step Up and lose. A game where you can in fact have one goat (regardless of generations) if one has elevated so far beyond all the others that there isn't even a question, and for the last 30 years there hasn't been one, and there shouldn't be one now. Even if LBJ wins two more it doesn't matter. He still lost six!!! Conversation should be over right there in terms of being the goat. he is many other things and any of his accomplishments will likely be unsurpassed for many years to come..... but he can't and won't ever be the greatest of all time on just that statistic alone PERIOD.
@James Jenkis according to Magic Johnson he was black Jesus. Which seems about right considering Jesus walked on water and Jordan walked on air
Basketball isn’t just about scoring there are other parts of he game too.
@Brian Gore thank you
@LEX your naming one statistic that LeBron has over Michael that is so specific? We can name thousands of circumstances like you just mentioned. LeBron has more regular season wins at home then MJ or something like that.
A wise man once said "It's not even close."
Facts.
@Dash Fetchem....... lmao, ITS NOT CLOSE! And Lebron ain’t leapfrogged Kobe or magic or Kareem yet!!
Bill "the man" Russell
lebron best of he’s era. mj best of his era. lbj better whole career coz mj suck at the wizards. mj more championships though and better individual record.
@@caseyjones815 U honestly sound sped
This goat debate is draining and pointless I believe it’s two sides in the sand and everybody has their minds made up already and neither side will change
Thank u bruh like nobody’s gonna change there minds can they just stfu already. They just taking away there greatness.
Lol, Kenny Beecham said it best
If Lebron gets to 6 some will change. If he gets to 7 most will change. but we're talking about man winnign 4 rings after the age of 35 to change minds so ya backs up your point if anything. I don't rule it out though. Especially if he takes less money on his next contract.
@@89feighery I’m over just we shouldn’t discuss Michael Jordan everyday on current sports shows... he hasn’t played in the nba in 17 years
Draining lmao... Real basketball heads know who the goat is ... This video pretty much proved it
MJ is the GOAT, come on now.
LeBron is still catching up what MJ did in 13 years.
Catching up for no. 2, and that will be probably another debate lol
In 11 full seasons. Didnt play much in 86 due to the leg injury and in 95 came back for the last 17 games and wasn't in basketball shape and that hurt him late in games.
He did what because he scored efficiently. Dude Riley/Krauss built a team which allowed people like Jordan to succeed.
There are way more stats Lebron wins against Jordan. One important stat, Win Loss %.....Lebron beats MJ. Clutch in playoffs, Lebron wins again. Lebron won with 3 different teams so you can definitively say Lebron is the main reason for those teams winning. Jordan had Pippen and Pat Riley.....hmmmmm Jordan went Washington and what happened.
You have to take the totality and not just the 6 seasons he did well.
@@NYCGERSON777 whos fault was that? that's a negative to his Jordan resume, not a positive and you cannot ignore it either.
It took James 18 years to win 4 rings, MJ. Played 15 years or more accurate 13 years, because of 2 year retirement, and he won 6 rings.
Nobody ever mentions how Lebron led USA to a bronze medal.
And MJ won 2 Gold. C'mon man seriously?
@@IvoryTaurean I think he was being sarcastic my friend
@@IvoryTaurean he's been just sarcastic man 🤣🤣🤣
LeBronze
@SPACE•TIME Come on man, every single MJ haters talk about it, the thing is nobody talk about how terrible his team and how great his opponent at those first round sweep
MVP is a political gift. When people get tired of you, you will not get it.
Yeah imagine how many MJ SHOULD'VE HAD.
Not always since MJ shoulda won 2 or 3 before he started winning rings
@@VVVY777 ppl getting bored of mj? in the 90s?
@@connoryu5906 they did. The 97 bulls won 69 games 2nd best ever, he led the league in scoring, Karl Malone won MVP on the 64 win Jazz. Imagine the Lakers winning 69 games and Lebron not winning. It would never happen
Kobe
I love how Jordan has 10 scoring titles, went 6-0 in the finals, and people are like "LeBron passes a lot".
Okay.
hahahaha so true
Mj should have 6 mvps, but was some how hosed that year and sir charles won mvp. And we all know how that season ended
@@icculus19 or Karl Malone
@@icculus19 Michael took it personal!
And even then MJ has the record for most assists in a Finals by a non point guard (11.4 in 1991)
As long as Lebron boast himself as a GOAT, he fails to surpass Jordan even more
Please show where Lebron said it more than once he was better than Michael Jordan
@@Sean360Lennox He literally said the 2016 made him "the greatest of all time" lmao. I think it was on his show
@@requix11 I know he said it But in his defense Goat what... SF or Player to me he’s still not but he’s top 5 dead or alive
Why
@@requix11 he ment one of the greatest
I will quote one of my favorite all time greats, Hakeem Olajuwon: When people start comparing him with Jordan, then that’s not a fair comparison. Jordan was a far more superior player in a very tough league, and he was very creative. That’s not taking away anything from LeBron because he is a great player, but it is not a fair comparison because Jordan is a far superior player.”
Hakeem Olajuwon, via CNBC
Agreeeeeee !!!!!
Facts
Excellent point. By the way, Hakeem taught LeBron a lot of moves, so he is an authority.
Hakeem has to say that tho. If Jordan's legacy is lowered in any way, then all of the greats who played during Jordan's era also shine a little less. Bottom line: there's no way to have this conversation in an objective manner.
@@isiahdaniels4295 The stats tell you who is the GOAT! It is and will always be Michael Jordan! MJ never referred to himself as the Goat! He didn't have to because his game spoke louder than words. LeBron James is constantly trying to convince people he's the Goat! A real Goat doesn't do that. LBJ is very insecure to be as talented as he is which is why so many people have said LeBron always lacked that killer mentality like MJ. He won't catch MJ in stats because LBJ will never win 2 olympic gold medals on top of everything else!
Finally a bit of reason instead of just media crying or screaming that lebron is not called the goat. Why because MJ is just better.
I also love that they also brought up Bill Russell. For me, he is no. 2, not LeBron.
Ricardo Milos for me lebron isn’t number two either. You have certainly bill russel, but also kobey, magic. A lot of players who played both say kobe instead of lebron. I think players should say who’s best. Especially who played with or against them. Not the media.
It’s like we’re watching a re run of ESPN with the “GOAT debates” they literally say the same thing everyday
💯facts
Now your comment is the absolute FACTS!
That's cause LeBron fans are morons. They keep adding excuses and mental gymnastics to try and tear others down.
@@VVVY777 explain?
Fact
Bill Russell was winning chips while sleeping in cars bcuz of segregation...
People don't undertstand Russell's impact. If you juiced him up with PEDs in the modern era, he would be a monster.
That's a good point. When people mention winning a title trapped in the bubble, (living in the lap of luxury, btw), was difficult. Let'em know what the older generation went through.
@@SuperTDSmith 😁🤣😂 They didn't even pass him the ball. Most his points came from offensive boards...
@@jonathanblaze1648 COULDN'T EVEN EAT IN A RESTAURANT IN BOSTON WHILE WINNING 11 STRAIGHT...But this is the toughest year huh...N I'm Lakernation from the womb...
@@Polo34 I'm not sure why they mention Russell. He was a good player BUT let's be honest here, he had a team full of HOF & ALL STARS. Oh yeah, he also had a HOF coach too! U also take into consideration that the NBA only had 8-12 teams at that time. So he's disqualified from GOAT status
Young people who weren't around watching basketball simply don't understand what kind of a beast Jordan was when he played. He was simply an unstoppable force. He was a phenomenon. Killer instinct. Very efficient. He stopped playing for 2 years to try out professional baseball because he got bored winning championships. He came back and continued to win 3 more championships in a row!
He was the first of his kind back then and it amazed everyone. Nowadays someone does the stuff he did and its like ok that was expected cause Jordan did it. Jordan would get smashed in the league today because he couldn't keep up with all the Jordan copiecats. Just looked a Kobe almost an exact replicate only he was even better! Scored 81 in a game.
@@charleslane7827 81 on the Raptors is different to 63 against the Celtics in the playoffs
@@charleslane7827if u think kobe is better cos he scored 81 pts, uve lost any credibility in bball whatsoever, no need to even argue 😂😂😂
This topic sucks, let's talk about the paint Jalen has on his dome.
😂😂😂😂😂
Lol im putting you in timeout .Its to perfect .I was wondering is he a clone .
Look like motor oil😭
Wow
Found the lebron fan
MJ will forever be the goat
No like I explained to a lot of people to say such a thing is a bit cocky and going too far..I'd much rather put it this way MJ is the reigning and ongoing goat no argument with that, but we can't for tell the future and who's yet to come so we need to realize this truth my friend
Yea when you play against a minimum number of black guys until the 90s. MJ played no one like him for 8 years. He had to step back when players like Penny grant hill AI Kobe Bron came in jumping higher
Records are bound to be broken, but for now, MJ is still the goat.
@@123rockstar2010 Agreed
@@killamatrix1 LOL
its all just barbershop talk when it comes to these topics. Different eras, different game, they are both legends but nobody touching MJ.
Almost 7 minutes it takes to just say Jordan the GOAT. No one touches Jordan. This argument as to stop. And I’m not a Jordan fan boy either it’s just the truth.
Except the criteria in this debate is bs
It will stop when Lebron retires. They hyping him up cause he still playing and they need him. They did the same when Kobe was still playing.
@@gavinoctavien1400 except lebron has better overall career stats than kobe. Obviously the big factor in calling kobe great was that he proved he could win a championship without shaq, but lebron has proved with ar worse teams on multiple occasions that he is essentially all a team needs to make the finals
@@aaronbeasley5474 u can’t make this argument, lebron joined a super team in miami to win 2 of his chips (one of those finals he lost to the Dallas mavericks and severely underperformed). In Cleveland he had kyrie who was scoring at a very similar clip to lebron, Kevin love, and some good role players. Lebron then needed a top 3 player in the nba in AD to come to LA to beat a mediocre team like the heat. Know the facts before u make a statement.
I always prefered Barkley and pippen...
Barkley has same brutal honesty i have and scottie has same bday as me..
Both who i thought were 'nice guys' (like LBJ fanbase).
But lets be real...dont make them automatically better than MJ.
I think if Shaq really committed himself to basketball he would have been the GOAT
really committed? 😂😂😂 THE MOST DOMINANT CENTER EVER.
@@RobOn85South most dominant fat center.
@@RobOn85South Yes, if he worked out and kept his body slim like he was with The Magic. He would’ve been even more unstoppable.
Theres quite a few players like that
Who if they had the Jordan dedication would run amok
Being the goat for dunking over and over .. Shaq the goat for get about it
Kareem Abdul Jabbar is the most unappreciated superstar in the history of sports! His body of work speaks for itself.
Wilt... The dude was eras ahead of his time. The dude played pro when he was in HS
Isiah Thomas, man got a title being the only all star on the team if im not mistaken.
HE'S REALLY THE GOAT
Wilt Chamberlain by far
KAJ is #2 all time
This the same guy that said Bron would win an Emmy before winning a ring when he initially went to LA lmao.
Nobody could predict injury to the best team/players, and a pandemic lmao 😂
@@wisconsinbadger5948 and he still picked Clippers and the Bucks to play in the finals after injuries and the pandemic. Everyone dealt with the pandemic, and it was the same amount of time off before the teams that made the bubble had to go there.
@Kyng Symba No you stop. Its facts, its not a knock against the championship but to sit there and act like NONE of that actually factored into this in some way is just idiotic
Well Anthony Davis joined him so that changed everything
Yeah, LeBron shouldve played all by himself.
Stupid fools
The thing we miss in all of this is that we never had to have these conversations with Jordan. We saw him play and just knew he was the greatest player we've ever seen. He was just that far ahead of everyone else. He was different. Lebron is amazing, truly one of the greatest of all times, but you don't watch him play and feel like you haven't seen it before. My thing has always been this: If you're playing a pickup game and you're team captain... you can pick from any NBA players in their prime. Are you picking Lebron, knowing that means the other team gets Jordan?
For me you can never compare jordan to anybody, the way he impacted this game. Man the way people were glued watching him. It was magical and poetry in motion. Era before is way different now. How they defend how physical it was. I dunno how mj survived with detroit and knicks. Thats why numbers are up man, its a soft era now. You can never compare.
no man
They should have had Shannon Sharpe as a guest during this segment lol.
Can't change the facts. They don't show these facts cause its not even close
Shannon would've blew out his shirt with anger hearing this 😂😂😂
But Skyuuuup...
He and Nick Wrong would be speechless. 😂😂😂
FYI its Leshannon lol
Michael was the scoring Champion 10 times but actually led the league in total points scored 11x. Fun fact
@Affordable Sticks until you realize that Jordan won the NBA championship 6x while leading the league in scoring.
Respect greatness.
@Affordable Sticks Bron hogs the ball more than Jordan and anyone in NBA history . Jordan can play with or without the ball. Check advanced stats
@@vc2349-0 Doesnt lebron have the most assists in playoffs or something like that?
@@vc2349-0 JUST STOP IT. Jordan can not play without the ball hence his 10 scoring titles and on 5 assist.
@@RobOn85South he can score without dominating the ball is what I'm saying. Like KD. You heard of triangle?
LeBron is an amazing player, but he’s not MichaelAngelo Jordan
Jeffrey
Facts!!
And Jordan is not Lebron James.
@@sexyAllen4u facts! Jordan is better
@@ronnymoreno406 ur out your everlasting mind.
Like for Jordan
My goat could never have 6 finals losses. Bron would have to win 7 for me to call him the goat.
@@sz I think he will
As mj says, no one knows who is the goat. They never played against wilt,west and other legends.
thats the main difference between MJ and Lebron. MJ defers to history of the sport and will not proclaim himself the greatest whereas Lebron calls himself the goat and gets mad when its questioned. If you have to say it yourself its more than likely not true.
West who? Better not say Jerry west
@@cuppal1969 he never called himself the goat
@@cuppal1969 i never knew as an nba player or better yet in life, that it is bad to claim u are the best to do something ... is it bad for someone to be confident in their abilities?
@@_jiquan_ Highly egotistical is what it is and it gives off a very selfish and negative vibe you can't deny that..Lebron gotta be humble wit it just go pull up the interview he was preachin tellin everybody "I AM THE GOAT"
There is no debate...MJ is "Basketballs Boss and G.O.A.T
It's all opinions
@@hennndo Well in this case it's a fact Jordan the GOAT
@@thephoenix8090 You can’t change the minds of people who believe Lebron is the GOAT and you can’t change the minds of people who believe Jordan is the GOAT. It’s all opinions.
@@LakeShow2408 LeBron didn't even make the playoffs his first 2 years playing so.....
@@shigechi5027 Trust me I don't try to convince idiots
MJ: highest PER in NBA history. Lebron is second highest
Even the guy who made the PER stat now questions it lol
@Reese B nah boring player and too many weakness
@@suxgaming1273 lol...boring. Yeh a player that can play every position which Jordan cannot boring. Weakness....what weakness. Free throws is the only weakness. Dont even give me clutch shooting because he out performs Jordan in that. Mid range jump shots, he won matches with those. Rebounds.... hmmmm..Assists.....hmmmmm. You hear it in the media and judge it.
Zero losses in finals. Mic drop....and added, never quit, carried to the trophy. Assasin. No questions asked. 23 is the only 23.
@@Anthony-77 what about the years that he didnt make the finals??
Bro the “GOAT Debate” is so pointless. You’ll never change someone’s mind on who they think the GOAT is.
Exactly
its not an opinion cause someone has to be the best and that’s Jordan
Agree. Because it will always be MJ
I change my mind on who the goat from mj to the player that wears #23 which ever ur choice is the right one
@BIGmonkeys 23 what is a stan?
Why scoring titles why not titles in general? I think having an assist title is very impressive and dominant
Jordan has 10 scoring titles
3 steals titles
LeBron has 1 scoring title
1 assist title
N¡66@ please
Add it if you want, Jordan is still better...
I agree
Scoring is the name of the game isn't it
There is no debate, clowns: MJ is the goat. The NBA is known to the world due to him.
Truth, he was a walking billboard for the league, and still is
The nba is known to the world because of magic and bird stupid and Lebron is already the goat
@@BodiggsAkaTheVoice You just proved your idiocy.
Do you know the guy named bill russel?
@@MM-gi3qj I mean nah he is a right. Magic and bird made the nba mainstream. Mj just took it to the next level
MJ even looks like ''basketball'' when you see him! Silly debate
Facts
@@gavinoctavien1400 4 real bro!
How long did it take LeBron to win his 4th ring 17 long years. How long did it take Jordan to win 6 rings 13 years. So there is no debate.
Jordan had the greatest team ever put some respect on the bulls also phil jackson , but i agree i still put jordan #1
and Jordan has almost 2 yrs of hiatus during those yrs . It could have been 8.
@@justinnguyen1395 Jordan had the greatest team ever really your acting like they were superteam from the start i ask you who was phil jackson before jordan??? Who was pippen before jordan?? They became a great team now with Lebron wade was a champion already and bosh an all star so he created a superteam.Also Eric spolstra will go down as a HOF coach
That’s a good point. I like lebron but numbers don’t lie and you can’t erase finals losses. It’s ok to have confidence in yourself but his ego is why I think most don’t like him.
That's a pathetic argument. Jordan was better, all you had to do is watch him.
A lot of you are saying, “he picked what favors Jordan” like bro.. what other categories matter in a goat debate? lol
NBA titles
MVP’s
Finals MVP’s
DPOY
(We won’t even count scoring titles. Even though that’s been the leading stat for YEARS when counting AST/RBD/STL’s).The criteria is still fair, y’all just biased for y’all guy and don’t wanna accept facts 💯
Lol. They want 2nd place trophies in there
1st Team All Defense is also important
That’s like half the game. Jordan has 9. Lebron has 5.
Yeah how bout finals win %
Jordan's shoes will never be filed lebron !!!! And suck on that
what facts you got?
It’s not an unbiased metric for goat. Not at all. It favors scorers when you put “scoring titles”. If you want unbiased , you also add: TRB champion, AST champion, STL champion & BLK champion. Because it encompasses everything. Either that or remove the criteria if you want “unbiased, no feelings”
I hear you, but alright here then this is for you to take note my friend..these records here show the expanse of MJ's career NBA Records
in its totality...Yes there are areas Lebron exceeds MJ as there are areas Kobe exceeds MJ, as there are areas Lebron exceeds Bird and, Lebron exceeds Magic and so on it's just the way sports work..obviously there will be areas a great athlete is superior to the other, but when all is said and done it boils down to their entire resume..
Michael Jordan set many NBA records in his career, most of them related with points because MJ was a scoring machine...
Record: scoring average NBA Finals
41.0
(1993) Record: Regular Season Career Scoring average
30.1 Points per game in Playoffs, career average
33.4
Record: NBA Scoring Titles
10
(1987-93, 1996-98)
Record: Consecutive NBA Scoring Titles
7
(1987-93) Record: most points in a playoff game
63
(against Boston on May 20, 1986, first round) Record: most Finals MVP
6
(1991-93, 1996-98) Record: All-Defensive First Team
9
(1988-93, 1996-98)
Record: total points, playoffs, career
5,987 * Record: Field Goals Attempted, playoffs
4,497 Record: Free Throws Made, playoffs
1,463 Record: Consecutive games with 10 or more points
866
2 slam dunk chips..Lebron 0
Chicago Bulls Records
The Bulls had a poor history before Michael Jordan arrived. He made them known around the world and of course he holds the Bulls' records in almost all the categories. These are some of them...
Record: total points, career, regular season
29,277 Record: scoring average, career, regular season
31.5
And the list go on,
he leads the Bulls in:
FGA: 21686
FGM: 10962
FTA: 8115
FTM: 6798
Games: 930 Min: 35887
Def. Reb: 4289
Tot Reb: 5836
Assists: 5012
Steals: 2306
Turnovers: 2589
All-Star Game Records
Michael Jordan was the star among the stars, so he could be not out of an All-Star records sheet.
Record: most points, All-Star Game, career
262 Record: most field goals attempted, career
233 Record: most field goals made, career
110 Record: most field goals attempted, game
27
(2003) Record: total steals, career
37
Number of times MJ scored 50 or more points 38 games game high 69...
Number of times Lebron scored 50 or more points 13 games game high 61..
MJ 6-0 finals = 100% win rate
Lebron 4-6 finals = 40% win rate
MJ is the reigning and ongoing 🐐
Although I respect Lebron being a great player and an absolute legend he just does not have the resume to challenge MJ as the goat yes he's got his areas where he's greater no doubt but overall MJ's achievements truly overshadows Lebron's..he got a wayys to go he still be chasing
@@boondockbwoy14 I am copying an pasting my friend 👏👏👏👏
@2pacKobe Hussle so does magic not deserve to be in the top 5 conversation? Since he didn’t score
@@boogalooak47 Lol yes go right on ahead I appreciate if you do..Bro it's a fun thing educating minds and these truths of mine are undeniable, if someone wants to debate them just request Lebron's resume that's all they'll have no say 👨🏾🏫👍🏾
@2pacKobe Hussle Kobe clearly had a weakness and that was his iq. He took so many bad shots. That’s why he has the most misses in nba history. Jordan also didn’t involve his teammates as well as others, which could have hindered his play if it wasn’t for illegal defense
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" quote from goat Lombardi..
The three highest accomplished awards are - MVP, Championship, Finals MVP..
1 - Jordan = 5 MVP, 6 rings, 6 finals MVP = 17 total.
2 - Kareem = 6 MVP, 6 rings, 2 finals MVP = 14 total.
3 - Russell = 5 MVP, 11 rings = 16 total (no finals MVP)
4 - Bron = 4 MVP, 4 rings, 4 finals MVP = 12 total.
5 - Magic = 3 MVP, 5 rings, 3 finals MVP = 11 total.
Lol by this metric Bill should hop MJ considering how easily he could have been counted as finals MVP for most of Celts earlier chips, furthermore the award is named after dude lol
@Reese B Not really.
The championship ring says that your team was the best team that year, and you played a part in that. MVP and finals MVP means that you were the best player on the team, and then came through as the best player when everything on the line.
LeBron is a great basketball player. But Jordan outshines him, always will.
@Reese B True, but this topic they are trying to solve is G.O.A.T.
That's greatest player, not greatest team. If it's team, Russell's Celtics win all day long.
Easy enough nice job
Thats bull because Lebron got screwed in at least 5 of those MVPs. Behave yourself. Also even the final mvps, the teams he lost against....he was the real mvp. Check the stats and impact.
One emotional component that I always think about with Jordan vs LeBron... When Jordan was playing, whether you rooted for him or against him, in crunch time when he had the ball in his hands, you knew he was going to make that shot. Now, he didn't always make the shot, but if you were watching you thought he would. I've never had that same feeling about LeBron. As impressive as he is and has been... I've never been watching a game in crunch time and "knew" he was going to make the shot. And LeBron has made those shots too... it's just a vibe. I always got that vibe with Jordan, I don't with LeBron. I can't even explain it... but it's real.
i know exactly what you mean. it wasnt just the fact that he was head and shoulders above everybody else with his game, jordan's approach and character made you "know" that he was making that shot.
Tell me why Lebron has attempted more shots and made more shots than Jordan in the playoffs?
@Krump 7 hes made more in playoffs then Jordan
@@punisher_004 I haven't crunched the numbers but LeBron has definitely been in more finals than Jordan, most likely more playoff games as a result too... so he's bound to have more shots and more makes.
My post wasn't to diminish LeBron... just to note that my gut reaction to the two players is opposite. Drop me into the final possession of a game with either LeBron or Jordan ball-in-hand, and I feel more confident that Jordan is going to hit that shot. I'm not saying LeBron can't or won't... just that my gut gives me more confidence in Jordan.
IF we compared performance stats or athletic ability, LeBron has a clear edge in a lot of categories. I'd hesitate to take Jordan over LeBron one-on-one too, because LeBron is just bigger than Jordan. But none of that changes the gut feeling, and I can't explain it but it is there.
Yet Lebron has more clutch game winners than Jordan.
MJ’a GOATness isn’t in question.
This is so true!
Michael Jordan is the GOAT & LeBron knows it he doesn't want to talk about it because he even know he's not the GOAT he's a phenomenal player he's just not over Jordan for the GOAT title sorry
Lol no he doesnt want to talk about it because thats the media job.
@@foursup3139 If it's the media job then why was LeBron on his show The Shop discussing him being the GOAT LeBron never pass up an opportunity to brag on himself look at the tweets between him and Brady LeBron just don't want people to kill him for calling himself the GOAT like he did on his show doesn't have nothing to do with the media and most people have Jordan as the GOAT anyway
@Ayuub Nur Or it could be that he knows he's just not the GOAT
@@thephoenix8090 or because the media is trying bait him and are trying to get a story going
@@csc4781 how can the media bait him in something he's already said
ITS not even close MJ all day. MJ has 6 chips "0" loses bronny has lost 6 chips
Robert Horry has 7 finals wins and zero losses, and also has played a vital part and hit big shots em route to winning those championships. He might be higher than Mike if that’s the case.
@Aboood165 exactly
I guess then Giannis had a better playoffs run than Butler since he didn’t lose in the final
@@VitaminJay did he won the final mvp? Camon man... we know this is a weak point, he is not the lead of the team, bill Russell is... but lost one 😂
WE CAN NOT RECONCILE THAT GOAT ISSUE DEBATE I GUESS. NEVER. WHY? BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GREATEST OF ALL TIMES . THAT MEANS FOREVER .THERE IS NO SUCH THING. GREATEST OF HIS OWN TIMES ? YES ITS POSSIBLE. THAT IS WHY ALL THOSE WHOM WE'VE MENTION ARE GOHOTs- GREATEST OF THEIR OWN TIMES. NO ONE IS GOAT. BUT THERE ARE GOHOTs.
Obviously these categories were predetermined before the “debate”
I think you're right.. Your criteria is better..
LeBron fanboy mad at fax i see
@@kckc7140 Jordan Stan mad to fit a argument I see
@@zaireriggins7877 bro Jordan has more fmvps, more MVPs, more scoring titles, more defensive selections and defensive titles, more rings, it's truly no debate, only thing LeBron wins in is more triple doubles and that's it
Facts!!!
here's 1, bring a championship to the Knicks 😆 impossible feat
Get a new owner first
They won a chip in 1970 so it can happen but never again😭
🤣 u a fool g
If lebron went to the Knicks they'd be champions by 2022 that's just how the pattern works
As a knicks fan its not impossible although it feels that way sometimes.... MJ is the G.O.A.T Lebron by the end of his career will be the S.G.O.A.T.
Mike's the GOAT and he will always be the GOAT
Mike is a sheep, 3 first round exits, 1-3 vs Pistons, just a scorer
@@fawadchaudhry6654 6 for 10 in the finals lebron is wack
@@fawadchaudhry6654 and lebron got to the finals all the time huh
@@fawadchaudhry6654 Just a scorer but has 10 all defensive first teams and a DPOY
Simple as that
Well let's be very honest about this G.O.A.T. conversation between LeBron James and Michael Jordan. Let's keep this realistic if Michael Jordan would have played for 18 years what would his stats and accolades have look like I'm just going to leave it right there
Key word if.. mj quit on his own accord. That's on mj not lebron.
@@uncleiroh7967 The point is even with MJ leaving basketball for those years, his stats are still better than LeBron James. LeBron can never surpass MJ's stats because on top of everything else, he'll never win 2 olympic gold medals; never!
@@americat3623 LeBrons is responsible for more points per games. Points plus assists. Lebron has more rebounds, more steals, more blocks. In regular season and playoffs. That's a fact. MJ quit twice. Trust mj fans to use mj quitting against lebron 🤣🤣🤣
@@uncleiroh7967 and how many times has Le4-6 quit? When you leave a team because you feel you can't win there,(yet you're supposed to be the best ever)you are a quitter. Le4-6 quits on teams and his teammates instead of staying and figuring out a way to win, once he feels he can't win with the lakers, he will quit again, maybe it will be for good.
So true. And of course he wont be able to extend it (mj years) playing coz 1. Its far more brutal on mjs era watch how he plays against detroit how brutal they were 2. No load management he completes all his games man. No comparison man, with this softie era thats why all their numbers are up
Lebron already did go there when he self-proclaimed himself as the goat. lol
Exactly. Who calls themselves the 🐐
@Si Starr Lebron said it when he beat the golden state
@Si Starr dont be lazy search for it by yourself lmao
@Si Starr type Lebron says he is the goat on TH-cam its 56sec long
@Si Starr did u check? Lol I bet u did smh LeBron fanboy
My criteria is
Impact: How did you change the way the game is played or viewed.
Awards/Merits: Rings, MVPs, DPoY, All-NBA etc
Stats/Production: Traditional + Advanced
Skill: Overall ability on offense + defense
PER rating in the playoffs I think is probably the most important stat. Lebron was behind by 0.2 before this year. When its updated he'll be behind 0.06. Couldn't be closer!
@nabil chowdhury Also if assited 3s count for more than assisted 2s as they should (if you've two open guys in each corner one just inside one just outside the 3 you should pass to the guy outside even though he'll make it less often so it's the worse PER decision) then LeBron would already be ahead. Not to mention the pass leading to free throws i.e. when a player about to dunk is hammered.
So what's your top 10?
@C A P cap mad cause Lebron “6losses 2x Swept” James will never pass MJ 😂
@@yomommalikethismeat9968 mj got swept in the1st round twice and also beat in 5 in the 1st as well
The man basically won the scoring title just about every season of his career. And even though I think Jalen shows some great factors to determine the greatest of all time in the NBA I would have added NBA defensive first team of which Jordan had 10 and LeBron has five.
Even though Jordan wins this match up easily, the only argument we ever need is that the best player of all time cannot have lost more championships than he has won.... There can only one greatest of all time and Batman must be held to the highest of scrutiny. A player can have no rings and still be somewhere in the top 10 players of all time and have many other accolades. but we're talking about the one and only best of the best, and remember this is not baseball, football or soccer that has 15 players on each team on the field. This is five on five where one man does have the ability, the killer instinct, to completely take over a game or a series and win it all. (And MJ came through every single time)
Even if LBJ wins two more it doesn't matter. He still lost six!!! Conversation should be over right there in terms of being the goat. he is many other things and many of his accomplishments will likely be unsurpassed for many years to come..... And he should be known as having the greatest NBA career of all time because he deserves that. But besides everything that Jalen just posted, LBJ isn't and will never be the greatest of all time because he cannot surpass MICHAEL JORDAN mainly based on that finals losses statistic.
But he's not the assassin MJ was when it counted. He was an assassin at certain points but fell short many times when MJ never did.
And one thing people don't talk about that doesn't determine the goat but it's still important and that's the fact that LBJ didn't ruin careers and steal Glory from dozens of Hall of famers during his 15 years. No rings for Malone Stockton, Barkley Ainge, Ewing Starks, R.Miller, Kemp Peyton, entire cavs lineup twice.... All because of Michael Jordan...no rings. He instilled fear in some of the best players ever and his 6 rings (and their lack of any) likely still haunt them to this day. LeBron never impacted players lives and legacies like that . Ever!
You said it perfectly my friend. So many great players are ringless because off this man and he could have easily gone 8 for 8 putting Olajuwon on that list.
Its not everyday that u find someone who argues with logic. Good to know there's some guys out there.
I have nothing against Bron. He's top 6 all time. ALL TIME. And people are upset that he's not number 1? That shows u they're emotional, and not logical.
@@ohmadamn thanks brother. I think all of us who think that MJ ( or actually know) MJ is the goat are a little bit older and use logic instead of ego. Plus we saw the magic of him playing. We saw the absolute killer that he was. The career killer. So I don't blame the younger guys for being all about LeBron because if I grew up only watching LeBron, I would think no one could have been better than him either. Except MJ was so much better than everyone else. Just like Larry Bird said after Jordan scored 63 on the Celtics "God disguised as Michael Jordan" and Magic Johnson said " there's Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us." And all those poor Hall of famers who never got a ring because of him. They're all haunted by Jordan's ghost. LeBron never had that impact on players legacies. But he is on the Mount Rushmore, and I believe he's still the best player in the NBA at 35 after watching what he did during the playoffs. I don't know why people take offense to me calling someone the second best professional basketball player ever in the history of the game
@@Daveyboy_RS3 💯 agreed. He's on the Mt Rushmore. But he ain't the GOAT. He's definitely #2, or #3 depending on peoples criteria. Just saw a video of Jalen Rose(another logical dude) setting a standard to measure the GOAT-ness.
@@CALord-tc7ww absolutely. The rockets and olajawon won the lottery when Jordan left for those 18 months
The stats, accolades, achievements, brand Jordan don't lie... he is and will always be the most competitive, most dominant, most feared man to ever play on a basketball court.
Enough about LBJ...
Whoever compares LeBron to MJ should be sentenced to jail.
"You don't want to compare a player to Michael Jordan or you'll get your feelings hurt."
- Max Kellerman
LeBron fans = 🥩 MJ fans = 🦖
It seems my incompetent brain cannot understand the analogy. Can someone explain, asking for a friend
@C A P no one has to even know Lebron to answer the GOAT question. Lebron is great in HIS era among HIS peers. There is no comparison. Lebron and many others exists because of MJ. Their own words.
They forgot to put on the “never choked on the brightest stage” criteria
Like Jordan did against Orlando? Yeah valid point!
@Ramses Stafford Ah the good old finals arguement! I guess its better to lose against the Celtics and Pistons in the first round then losing against the Warriors with Dellavedova as your second best player. Lebron's 4 rings and 10 final appearances are more impressive to me then Jordans 6-0. The consistency and longevity level of pure greatness that Lebron has displayed over 17 years hasn't ever been seen. Jordan and Lebron are 1a and 1b. It's ridiculous people use finals losses against an all time stacked warriors squad and a 2007 loss where he went up against 4 hall of famers lead by a top 7 player of all time against him. Nah. Try again.
@Ramses Stafford Why did he only make the finals 6x? Real GOATs go atleast 10x. If you only go 6x it means you failed more then you won
The idea that a guy can have 1 bad finals out of 10 that ruins his legacy is a very poor argument.
All 9 other Finals LeBron played brilliant. The Dallas series should count against him, but What about the other 9 appearances? Without the Dallas one, he has never lost when not playing against a dynasty or with significant injuries on his own team (or both in 2014 and 2015).
If you want it to disqualify him, I don't see why. 1 bad series at 26 makes a guy's career?
Come on.
@Ramses Stafford If LeBron 3peats and gets 6, with 12 appearances and maybe another MVP, what will you say?
MJ is beyond criteria..
his performance connects all the dots and nothing is lacking. unlike any goat wannabes, you can only appreciate limited features that are even sometimes inconsistent. MJ always had consistent dominance over whoever the opponent was. MJ goat all day.
So where was his performance the years he didn't win a title when he couldn't beat Boston and Detroit y'all basing this off 6 years it's evident u don't know basketball
@@mayanward979 no need to troll bossman, all basketball players have their low years just like MJ. i am speaking for their prime years. obviously you just hatin the facts. move on brothah! =) now dont go trolling again coz youre offended.. coz it doesnt matter to me. thanks though for making me the highlight of your day. =)
@@mayanward979 Even when he was losing he was performing well , it was just he had a trash team and went against a team of HOFs . His statline says that.
Oh and MJs team never lost in the finals and never went to a game 7 in the finals Pure dominance 💯💪🏾
easy to do when the teams he played were lacking talent. and yall say lebron cake walk to the finals
Mj and lebron fans: fighting
White Mamba fans: chilling
@@RobOn85South he beat the warriors but he lost to them too. Mike didn’t lose in the Finals bro. How could the teams he faced lack talent? Reggie, Ewing, Barkley, Malone all are ringless thanks to Mike and the list goes on you’re buggin
MJ played with out a physical big man the first 3 championships in a more physical league that was built for the BIG MEN to dominate with MORE skilled BIGS then any other era (Olajuwon, Ewing, Kareem, David Robinson, YOUNG SHAQ just to name a few and they all protect the rim) Also remember hand checking was allowed so there was no ticky tac fouls like today where if you sweat on a guy you fouled him, guards could pick u up full court defensively and no 3 in the key rule so bigs could actually camp out and wait for MJ unlike today where the paint is wide open to drive with NO "PAINT DEFENDERS" JORDAN DOMINATED THAT ERA.... Let's not forget Jordan never won a title with the type of talent Lebron has won with. Pippen was probably one of the best side kicks, you couldn't built a team around him like the sidekicks Lebron had (D. Wade, Kyrie Irving, AD)... Pippen played the heck out of his role but let's be honest who was Pippen before Jordan pushed him and how great was Pippen after Jordan retired??? In Houston and in Portland he still couldn't lead a team to a championship with multiple stars and HOF next to him. SO this is why to me Jordan is the GOAT among many other reasons I didn't bring up like playing against some of the greatest dynasties of all time SHOWTIME LAKERS, BIRD CELTICS, BAD BOY PISTONS just to name a few
Karaitiana Aranui jordan went to the finals 6 times and won all 6,not 1,not 2,not 3, not 4, not 5 but 6 and you saying why he didn’t go to more, like jordan himself said”I just run out of time”. Just saying
The Biggest Stat no one Mentions is Seasons. MJ accomplished all that in just 12 full seasons LeBron is in Season 17 still playing catchup.
Precisely. MJs body of work in modern times is unmatched. 6 for 6 and no disappearance act in the finals. No game 7s.
Truth.
lebron came straight out of highschool so of course it took him longer 😂😂 . MJ learned under the greatest coaches all time so of course. Name 1 HOF coach lebron ever had...
I'LL WAIT.
@@sliferxxxx correct, but the luxury MJ had that Lebron didn't.
HOF COACHING HOF SIDEKICK in his prime and a Team built TOP to BOTTOM with Cs Stretch 4s and wing defenders ... Luxuries Bron never had. So of course.
@@RobOn85South name a time MJ disappeared in the NBA finals?? 12 full seasons, 6 championships, 10 scoring titles etc. Got humiliated in 1990, came back the next season and ended Isaiah's career. Just returned from retirement and lost to SHAQ and Penny, retooled and swept them out of the playoffs the next season aka as the greatest season of all-time. ....
Lebron james not even on Mj level cause of what happen in 2011.
HOF Lebron faced in finals: 2007- 3 HOF + HOF coach, 2011- 2 HOF, 2012 - 3 HOF, 2013 4 HOF + coach, 2015 - 3 HOF, 2017 - 4 HOF
Jordan has had bad performances in the 80s. That didn't negate what he did in the 90s tho.
Is Mj not on Lebrons level cause of what happened with the Wizards?
Is Mj not on Lebrons level because he retired early twice because he was mentally drained?
Bronsexuals will find a way to argue
*COUNTER-ARGUMENT TO JALEN ROSE:*
1) *Faulty Criteria:*
The DPOY, MVP and Finals MVP are political in nature due to being voted on like a popularity contest. They are not actual measurements of individual performance based on a set criteria, which allows some biased individuals to choose a person on his or her own preference instead of on a rational standard.
2) *NBA Title.*
NBA Title wins does not mean the individual was superior, but that a given team was better against another specific team. Again, we want to measure how great an individual performed, not how well his team performed against another in one series of games.
3) *Scoring Title.*
a) *Stat Tracking.* The NBA also tracks rebounding, assists, blocks, steals and win shares.
The scoring title award is based on the highest average of points a player has over the total number of games played.
The problem is that Jalen intentionally uses scoring as a the metric to benefit Michael Jordan, while purposefully failing to add rebounding or assists, even though all of the players under consideration for GOAT played different positions which emphasize dominance in different skills (e.g., points for Guard, rebounding for Center). I would argue that *_Career Win Shares_* are more important than points alone because it calculates how important a player was to his team winning.
b) *Games played.*
The other weakness by using the average is that it allows a player who played fewer games (e.g., 20 games) but scored higher each game (e.g. 20 points) to retain a competitive position relative to a guy who played 75 games but scored consistently between 12-25 points a night during all games. Essentially, one player's contributions were more valuable for the whole season while the other player's points helped in fewer matchups.
Jalen picked all the categories that he knew MJ was leading lol
Facts lol jalen my guy but hes a obvious jordan guy. Bron could win 4more it wouldnt change his mind
Bruh he picked the most important awards in basketball what other awards matter
Tbh the more awards , stats or analytics you use the worst it gets for Bron as MJ is no1 in almost everything and has all the top games etc.
Bron leads longevity by a landslide and is great for triple doubles though ill give him that.
What is more important than those categories?
you clown those are the most important categories
That G.O.A.T criteria is lacking. If stats are in the equation, you can't just have scoring titles. You should add:
- points per game
- total points
- assists per game
- total assists
- rebounds per game
- total rebounds
- blocks per game
- total blocks
- steals per game
- total steals
- FG%
- 3pt%
- FT%
All these for both regular season and Playoffs. Also:
- All NBA selections
- All defense selections
- All-Star selections
- total games played (RS & Playoffs)
problem with this is it takes average of all games you have played, so it will include jordan's and lebron's start to their career where they obv werent as good, as well as jordan's end. also there are too many metrics, how would you determine in the end who is better, you wouldnt be able to do it solely on who wins more of the criteria, because clearly some of the criteria should be weighted higher than others.
but yeah i agree they should have added maybe 1 or 2 more important metrics, like steal leader, block leader and assist leader
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" quote from goat Lombardi..
The three highest accomplished awards are - MVP, Championship, Finals MVP..
1 - Jordan = 5 MVP, 6 rings, 6 finals MVP = 17 total.
2 - Kareem = 6 MVP, 6 rings, 2 finals MVP = 14 total.
3 - Russell = 5 MVP, 11 rings = 16 total (no finals MVP)
4 - Bron = 4 MVP, 4 rings, 4 finals MVP = 12 total.
5 - Magic = 3 MVP, 5 rings, 3 finals MVP = 11 total.
Take the word "total" out of you criteria, thats empty longevity stats, if MJ cared about longevity he would not have retired twice including one time during his prime.
@@koasizmworld1927 I couldn't disagree more. Longevity is synonymous with commitment, discipline and maximum effort. Those are highly respectable attributes.
Longevity is why Brady & Kareem & CR7 & Federer are such legends. It's why LeBron won this year. The truth is MJ played 10 years at the top level and called it a day. That's a valid knock on his legacy, even though I still got him #1
@@laughingbehelit yeah imagine if MJ cared about longevity, he would b untouchable..
But my point is about there game, how good they are ar scoring or defending etc, longevity doesnt determine ur avg scoring or avr steals etc
It’s too late for LeBron James to pass MJ he’s been playing too long 18 years only 4 rings 1 scoring title 🤷🏻♂️
i don't even know how people debate abou it, is too obvious 🤣🤣🤣
So now it’s bad to be able to play at the highest level for almost 2 decades?🤣🤣
@@alecxantv4981 ikr it's just the kids because they grew up with Lebron's greatness and want him to be the best there ever was..they shut everyone else of the equation 🤦🏾♂️
@@sanantoballa4834 never that's great🙌, the matter here is that Jordan's numbers in 15 years are bigger than LeBron's in 17, jordan is #1 PPR, #1 PPG, 10 Times the best scorer, 1 BDPOY, 5 MVP, 6 MVP finals, 6 rings, all that in 15 years, unbelievable man 🥶🤯 ..lebron james is #2 in turnsovers of all times in the league almost #1 with 4,424 that's a really negative rank, Jordan just commited 2,977 turnsovers in his career, it means jordan's hands were more secure than lebron's, jordan was a very clutch player when needed, lebron has never been a clutch player that's why he lost 6 finals, the truth here is comparing LJ wiht MJ is just a joke...
@@alecxantv4981 - Actually by his 11th full year, Jordan already had 6 rings, 6 finals mvps. 10 scoring titles. DPOY. x3 steals titles etc etc etc.
Lebron wasn't even close to sniffing that in 11 years.
The debate has never been close.
Jalen literally made this segment to fit his goat argument😂
What stats would you use who made the finals more?😂
@@Gg-et8gp Nope we can make
Number of triple doubles
Total points scored
Total assist made
Total rebounds ...
All comes under basketball ..
I beleive MJ is goat..
But this list is just unfair 😅
@@aadhi6794 there are many lists were Mj will win as well you have to also realize that he played much less seasons
@@aadhi6794 total cumulated accolades just means longevity, that makes MJ more impressive because he achieved more in less time lol
Bringing up titles that are voted for is bogus for either side. Don't get me started with that BS. LeBron got robbed twice of DPOY
but during those times when jordan won those awards, it was obvious that he was the best in those categories.
NeverFail: nah those other 2 guys deserved dpoy. bron takes nights off always has. kareem and mj were better at that end
Jordan could have easily won MVP 3-5 more times.
@C A P you cant just say "nah" and expect people to believe you
@Brian Abisdid nah, not the whole game, on certain plays. Chase down blocks don’t make you the greatest defender in the league.
Jordan's sneakers are still selling very well 10 years ago he retired, that's the definition of GOAT. ;)
Do you think MJ retired in 2010?
No one is taking anything away from Lebron, he's a great player. However, the "GOAT" is MJ, even if Lebron wins 10 championships and passes MJ's 6, (1)it took Lebron longer (2) MJ had two 3peats (3) MJ is 6/6 in Finals, 6/6 finals MVP and has never went to a game 7. So this whole lot of talk of he has more work to do is not holding water for me. Thats just my honest opinion.
When I think of the GOAT, I think of a player who dominated the game with so much finesse and style. Who’s game impacted generations. Who globalized NBA basketball’s popularity. Who was a childhood (and grown up) superhero for anyone who ever cared a single bit about basketball.
The GOAT conversation is not about numbers. It’s about what you did beside those numbers. You have to have insane stats for sure. But nobody cares about Lebron James who doesn’t play the game. Or doesn’t watch it.
When Michael Jordan was playing, the WHOLE WORLD knew who he was, and he straight up DOMINATED every other aspect of LIFE. Not just basketball. Michael Jordan is unique and there never be another one like him. Just his presence. Even a mere thought about him makes me shiver cause his goatness.
Noone can come close.
It's VerSUS NOT VERSE. A verse is part of a song.
Or a poem
Leading the league in scoring shouldn’t be a area of focus when you have other stat categories. It should be more about the time scoring list.
No, the All-time scoring list doesnt necessarily mean you were a great scorerer. You could average 20 points for 20 seasons and crack the top 10 All time scoring. Thats shows longevity but actually leading the league in scoring shows a dominance in that area
@@darryla13
But scoring doesn’t necessarily lead to winning. Look at harden or melo. Just this year Beal, young, booker all averaged 27+ and didn’t make the playoffs
@@Half_Full-Since96 you’re forgetting that MJ has more all defensive teams and a dpoy. Lebron has no dpoy
@@Half_Full-Since96 But Jordan ain't Melo or Harden. He scored and won while doing it.
@@Half_Full-Since96 and that's what i try to tell y'all about lebron numbers lol all his numbers def doesn't mean he is gonna win and when he tries to do everything it takes away from everyone else that's lebron gift and curse. It's hard for him to co exist because he won't focus on one area. Mike scored defended. Because that's basketball offense defense lebron does so much just to lose and you all blame his teammates for not playing when he has the ball 90% of the time because he passing to somebody to assist he is scoring and rebounding which has him 4-10 and a bunch of excuses from his fans
When the lights were the brightest and the stage was the biggest MJ was at his best, the same can not be said for LeBron. He had two terrible finals series against San Antonio in 2007 and Dallas in 2011. Those are the two biggest reasons why he will never surpass MJ as the GOAT.
Preach Sir
The lights were too bright in the first round a couple of times and Jordan got swept.
Facts
@@Dplayer-g1l The main difference is, Jordan never played poorly in a playoff series, let alone the finals. LeBron was awful in the 2007 series against the Spurs and again against Dallas in 2011. You can't call yourself the best player ever and avg 17 points in a finals loss. It's not taking anything away from him, he has learned from those losses and become an amazing player now, but those 2 series will always hold him back.
@@Dplayer-g1l u right especially when u don't make the playoffs your 1st 2 season to get sweep because u was home already sweeping your own floor,
The goal of basketball is winning the championship.
Here’s some simple math:
4 🏆 / 17 attempts = 23.5%
6 🏆 / 15 attempts = 40% 🐐
Then
11 🏆/ 13 attempts = 84.62% 🐐
@@jimcosta9631 they dont wanna hear that
@@jimcosta9631 I’m happy for you to claim Bill Russell as 🐐 if you want. It’s just a tough sell considering there was something like 10 teams in the league at the time and he played on stacked teams including 5 hall of famers.
so we have scoring titles, where is the assist titles
What about assists? I mean would you rather do it yourself or rely on another person. Plus.. Jordan assist average is only about 2 shy of lebron. So whatever
@@Khanvict08 Lebron is first pass guy yet averages 27.4 ppg for his career only 3 pts less than Jordan which makes lebrons ppg average that much more impressive.......
@@Khanvict08 about two assists doesn't sound like a lot but, it's a pretty big difference. In only about two extra seasons LeBron has almost doubled Jordan in total assists.
Lebron averages 1.9 more assists than Jordan for their careers...lol 1.9 and LeBron’s play style is to control ball and the facilitating. You have to count these factors because having more numbers does not equate to being better.
@@ng7214 how are you pass first if he’s 3 points away from Jordan😂😂😭 he’s not pass first he’s .7 higher then Bird and 2.0 higher then Jordan... NOT PASS FIRST IF YOU AVG 27-7-7
I don't care MJ will always be the goat for me.
SO JALEN BASICALLY SAYING WITH THIS CRITERIA LEBRON MIGHT NOT BE IN TOP 5
That’s what I was thinking . But the eye test tells me lebron is the best player I’ve seen
Jalen Rose likes to prop up his era to make himself seem better than he was
@@Madmax_sports well, his criteria is valid as those stats are the most important as to how dominant you were as a player. All time stats just proves longevity. Doesn’t necessarily mean you are great.
@@tyrionlannister8 jalen didn't include assists leader because jordan didn't do it but lebron did
@@tyrionlannister8 Not really, both LeBron and Jordan should have more MVP's. Finals MVP are also questionable at times... Igoudala 2015. Scoring titles is not the only way to be dominant. Assist, Rebounding, Blocks, Steals can also control a game.
all i can say my humble opinion...if lebron transform cavs in his rookie yr till now and lebron leaves cavs with 5 or 6 champs well we can talk about it..MJ transformed the bulls into DYNASTY!
they need to take into account 17 years of basketball dominance
he didn't dominate all 17 years...LeBron is the social media GOAT
@King Khan lol Durant joined a 73 win team if you wanna talk about stacked teams. Remind me what happened when Miami faced OKC in the finals?
Remind me who beat the 73 win team...
And he still not the GOAT
Jalen should only be allowed to talk about Kobe, 81 was dropped on he’s head!!
Everyone that is arguing saying that it’s LeBron James are Probably 14-19 years old and never seen MJ play unless it’s on TH-cam.. MJ was a dog !!!
Shutup old man
14-19???? WTH... anybody (any age) with working eyes can see Lebron is better... coming from someone older than 14-19yrs old..
I'm 40 years old. Bron is the GOAT!!!
Does that mean lebron can’t be a dog as well
Lebron is a complete player not just a scorer and overrated defender
If they had DPOY was around before 83 Kareem would have had 4 of the 5 in his bucks title and he probably would have had multiple DPOY awards in the 1970s. I am from Chicago so I am obviously on MJs side but people don't give Kareem enough respect
Mj will always be the goat lmao
Yes, but when bill Russel was playing, there were around 8 teams in the league. Soo weak argument.
🙄
Right, that's why counting chips alone is aberrant.
Those 9 teams had some of the most dominant players in NBA history. Go look at when the league expanded in the 70's and look at who were the most dominant players from 70-76. Other than Kareem, all the other guys come from the 60's... Oscar, Wilt, Clyde, Reed, Hondo, Jerry West, Unseld etc...
8 teams. That means that 16% of the time Bill was facing off against Wilt Chamberlain
Yes! Which means teams were that much deeper. Whereas now you literally have historically pathetic defenders making allstar teams and being voted mvp. Your argument is pathetic.
Am a big Lebron fan but Mj will always be 1 .Bron top 5 tho.
did u just say lebron top 5 as if he already isn’t the 2nd or 1st greatest
MJ will always be the GOAT of ALL TIME
After combining all the criteria i got my conclusion on this.. Lebron is the Goat and MJ is very close second
But i can understand if people put MJ over LBJ as well
you crazy ...LeBron will never surpass Jordan
@Ayuub Nur lol why?
@@andresmith5615 lol very objective opinion of yours
Not objective...FACTS...
Fun fact Jordan never lost as the#1 seed in the conference. How many times has James lost or got swept as the#1 seed
Michael Jordan is the GOD I REPEAT THE GOD OFF BASKETBALL THE. DUDE CAN FLY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD
There is but ONE GOD....and there are NONE beside HIM
Facts
Amen!!
@C A P For real, all he had to do back then was isolate. And then he had the privilege of playing in the triangle with the greatest coach of all time.
It is not even close! The inconsistent performance of LJ, especially when he defenses. The altitude he had when he claimed himself as GOAT. A show on TV when he announced his trade? Come on man... So many flaws!
You know who doesn’t believe Lebron is better than Jordan? Lebron.
That’s a fact. He knows he ain’t better. It’s not even close. I don’t even know why people are comparing him to Jordan when he hasn’t surpassed Kobe in my opinion
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Apart from the fact that he's actually stated that he's the GOAT this is a great point
@@frankseal7041 I can say I’m the GOAT but it doesn’t mean I believe it.
@@ericduncan7421 LeBron is "better" because he's versatile and great in so many different stats, he can play all 5 positions. but LeBron would never beat MJ in a 1v1
6-0 over 12yrs sounds better than 4-6 over 20yrs. Imo you can't beat perfection
I been telling mfs this
So does 11 chips in 13 years ( bill Russell ) but hey 🤷🏽♂️
Yea just pointing out LeBron has lost more than Won in Finals and because he is suppose to be the best and generational talent like MJ than alot of blame for the losses falls on him especially in Cleveland and the Dallas series with the Heat, that was his fault for quitting on his team mates. Something Jordan nor Bill Russell ever did
Jordan never quit on his teammates?!?! Yeah, he was really there for them in 1994 and 1995. How much did MJ help his Bulls teammates in 1999? Jordan quit 3 times and the first 2 of those are squarely on his shoulders.
MJ’s NBA career spanned 19 years. He FAILED to get to the Finals in 13 of those. Four years because he was a quitter. Nine years because he couldn’t get his team to the Finals. How do you judge that as perfection?
Mvp and dpoy is voted by people who are biased. Shaq only has 1 mvp, for example
Fact
Shaq was lazy -Kobe
@@Mistercorms you're wrong
@@phillychilll6308 I didn't say it Kobe did look it up..
@@Mistercorms shaq was better than Kobe
Who set these criterias? Mvp? Scoring titles? DPOY? It’s comical what this guy said, if you say mvp’s should be the main criteria then Kobe is automatically ruled out if we say “you have to have 10 scoring titles to be the goat” then kareem is ruled out. jaylen just nitpicked every thing Jordan has over lebron. Since were setting criteria’s, here’s mine, longevity, all around dominance, leadership, accumulated stats, all nba teams, and all star appearances. I said all that to say this, there is no criteria for being the goat we’ve seen players dominating in ways we’ve never seen before, at the end of the day it’s just your preference.
We all know MJ the GOAT, He even won the Sneaker Game!!!!! 😆😆😆
Goat of his era
@fully up in his era.
@@gohanson27 can't say GOAT for LeBron or anyone then, it means of ALL TIME.. LMFAOOOOOOO since Lebron didn't play in Michael's era.
Comparing a player to MJ will get your feelings hurt 🤷🏾♂️
Yeah that was funny.
It will tho especially when the FACTS start rolling out...... Just check all the recent ESPN videos where people still dropping Jordan bombs & check the dislikes........ Alot of feelings getting hurt out here 🤣😂🤣
Looking at the competition Jordan played against as a Jordan fan will hurt your feelings
@@oblivionpro69 looking at the players LeBron HAD to team up with to win titles will hurt LeBron fans feelings..... We can do this all night but you gonna run out of ammo WAY BEFORE I even get half way done
@C A P didn't need as much help as LeBron because Jordan won a title without a single all star teammate on his team..... Let me know when LeBron pull that one off
it should be clear MJ was a far better defender...you tell me how many people got to be topscorer and DPOY in the same season???
Lebron is a way better defender, regardless of him not winning dpoy because he has to go up against way better competition than mj did and scottie pippen was a better defender than mj and he never won a dpoy. Mj only played defense against guards, like isiah Thomas and john stockton while lebron can guard all 5 positions
The lies!!!! When has he guarded all 5?
@@roshawnterry1929
He guarded all 5 when GSW or Rockets put Tiny Fowards as Centers.
@@roshawnterry1929 THANK YOU! The media narrative bs with him guarding all 5 positions need to stop. He runs away from guarding elite players at his own position so that's a lie every time I hear it.
@@benenders6920
Lebron can only defend people smaller than him. Stop kidding yourself.
Don't act like Lebron would be able to defend truly skilled or big players.
What happened every time Lebron played against Durant ? Durant dropped 30+ averaging 50-40-90 type numbers.
why are assists being left off when lebron is the only player in history to be a top 5 scorer and assist man
He's not top 5 in Assists.
Assists are overinflated stat. They require someone else to make the shot. Basketball points matter, followed by defense. Rebounds after that. Assists are at the bottom.
@@mak23997 --- Thank you, sir!
because an assist relies mainly on the teammates ability to score. And what percentage of assists are simple hand offs to a very good scorer? How is that making the guy who passed it great in any way?
We are going to act like AD didn't avg 28ppg 10 reb while being a dpoy candidate right? Imagine MJ getting that from Pip 🤣🤣
Len, why does that go over Bron fans headz? Oh, I know why, it doesn't fit their narrative.
@@geralddecosta320 they braindead of course. Their king left them in a position where they have to try and spin 6 massive Ls into a win, 😂😂
Flopping and ref moaning is NOT becoming of THE GOAT.
Nor is getting swept in the first round multiple times and not even making the finals.
So how's mj tje. Goat all he did was cry
@@ThaSweetHart they say its better to not make it than to make it and lose lmao...mj fans criteria
ThaSweetHart: Fake News. Youre bringing up mjs redshirt yrs when he wasnt in prime. No one had great freshman yrs but Kareem. Thats it.
bron missed the playoffs in his redshirt yrs kobe was swept but he even had Shaq w/him. see the bias? CNN
There are probably a handful of teams that can be a toss up of the greatest teams/coach combos of all time ....LeBron had to face two of them for a total of 7 times (warriors and spurs)...none of which were his teams favored to win the series (he lost 5 of them) his teams were favored in the other 3 (mavs, thunder, heat) which he won 2 of those 3 matchups. The one hiccup he and his team had was the loss against the mavs...and the 3-1 comeback against the warriors was epic even with the draymond suspension. So, out of 10 finals, he had one inexcusable loss. Also, injuries to love and irving def have him no shot in one of the series. Jordans finals opponents were good yes obviously, but they weren't dynasties like the warriors and spurs who dominated for long stretches and won multiple rings. Jordans routes to the finals were definitely harder than most of lebron's however. Both players are phenomenal, but the finals records shouldn't be what decides who is better. Jordan was a better scorer and a more consistent elite defender, but bron can guard all positions when necessary and is/was elite at defense in his prime as well. He also can rebound way better and his passing in my opinion is top 3 all time with magic and stockton. Overall with statistics, LeBron will dwarf most of MJs stats and you can easily make an argument either way on who was the overall best player.
Alright here then this is for you to take note my friend..these records here show the expanse of MJ's career NBA Records
in its totality...Yes there are areas Lebron exceeds MJ as there are areas Kobe exceeds MJ, as there area areas Lebron exceeds Bird and, Lebron exceeds Magic and so on it's just the way sports work..obviously there will be areas a great athlete is superior to the other, but when all is said and done it boils down to their entire resume..
Michael Jordan set many NBA records in his career, most of them related with points because MJ was a scoring machine...
Record: scoring average NBA Finals
41.0
(1993) Record: Regular Season Career Scoring average
30.1 Points per game in Playoffs, career average
33.4
Record: NBA Scoring Titles
10
(1987-93, 1996-98)
Record: Consecutive NBA Scoring Titles
7
(1987-93) Record: most points in a playoff game
63
(against Boston on May 20, 1986, first round) Record: most Finals MVP
6
(1991-93, 1996-98) Record: All-Defensive First Team
9
(1988-93, 1996-98)
Record: total points, playoffs, career
5,987 * Record: Field Goals Attempted, playoffs
4,497 Record: Free Throws Made, playoffs
1,463 Record: Consecutive games with 10 or more points
866
Chicago Bulls Records
The Bulls had a poor history before Michael Jordan arrived. He made them known around the world and of course he holds the Bulls' records in almost all the categories. These are some of them...
Record: total points, career, regular season
29,277 Record: scoring average, career, regular season
31.5
And the list go on,
he leads the Bulls in:
FGA: 21686
FGM: 10962
FTA: 8115
FTM: 6798
Games: 930 Min: 35887
Def. Reb: 4289
Tot Reb: 5836
Assists: 5012
Steals: 2306
Turnovers: 2589
All-Star Game Records
Michael Jordan was the star among the stars, so he could be out of an All-Star records sheet.
Record: most points, All-Star Game, career
262 Record: most field goals attempted, career
233 Record: most field goals made, career
110 Record: most field goals attempted, game
27
(2003) Record: total steals, career
37
Number of times MJ scored 50 or more points 38 games game high 69...
Number of times Lebron scored 50 or more points 13 games game high 61..
MJ 6-0 finals = 100% win rate
Lebron 4-6 finals = 40% win rate
MJ is the reigning and ongoing 🐐
Although I respect Lebron being a great player and an absolute legend he just does not have the resume to challenge MJ as the goat yes he's got his areas where he's greater no doubt but overall MJ's achievements truly overshadows Lebron's..he got a wayys to go he still be chasing
Mj and other past greats like magic, bird, bill russell etc only truly played 13 or less seasons. Mj didn't play a full 15 seasons.
Newer guys like kobe and lbj have longer careers. But less overall stats. They all also never played each other in their primes. Which mj has said many times. Therefore it's not a true goat.
Mj is just the standard, outside of big men. Likely could've had more rings had Chicago been a competent front office?? He gave up a lot of good yrs to retirement (s)
so many points to tackle here. first LBJ has 2 inexcusable loses and one loss that is totally embarrassing and removes him from all GOAT talks. 2011 and 2014 in which the Spurs and Heat were both great teams but as the best player on both teams, LBJ should have carried his team to victory, something MJ would have done. You say MJ never had to face a "dynasty" but that was because MJ was the dynasty and the king of the hill, something LBJ should have been but instead he let many other teams win the ship over him. LBJ cannot guard all 5 positions. Stop it. that is new era slick talk that people tend to fall for. LBJ can not guard centers like Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem etc. LBJ is not even close to MJ as a defender. Rebounding and passing are much closer than you think. Please go back and watch MJ play. He could do everything on the court LBJ can do if he wanted to and if the team needed him to. LBJ cannot do everything MJ can do, especially hit last second shots with the game on the line. LBJ played in a softer era, had better medicine and info, and played longer. So of course his stat totals will be higher than MJs but averages, and rings, he still isnt close to MJ. He would need 19 seasons to match MJs output from 13 seasons. That tells you everything you need to know....
Scott Hinkens that paragraph represents your hand around lebron's shaft. Comparing James to Jordan is a joke. That criteria is how you separate men from boys. Basketball when simplified is about offense and defense.
@@duncanbrowne2278 lmao. Your comment represents your hand around Scott Hinkens neck.
Finally, finally the metric for the goat conversation and o f course James is NOT the goat, Not even Davis said it. Davis was asked in this interview if James was the goat and he said "hummm, its tough, Im from Chicago, that's tough" and on top of that you win a title against a team ,no disrespect, with no stars and a no body's team. You said it was tough and you asked for respect? Come on you clearly are NOT the goat.
GOAT = Michael Jeffrey Jordan
Funny thing is even though Dwyane Wade is great friends with LeBron he said MJ is the goat the first thing Max said well Wade is from Chicago Lol.. well LeBron himself has spoken and I agree this is a played-out topic people will have their opinions the purists on either side isn't going to change their minds and by saying that one is the goat what is the benefit from it? People argue till they're blue in the face against someone who isn't going to change their mind but what is the reward waiting at the end of this debate nothing but a bunch of wasted time and air
Yup no comparison lebron is good but he ain't no goat