Goodluck! Let me know if you have questions or run into issues. Fair warning, the recipe I ended up was mainly a function of the chemicals I had on hand at the time :) There are definitely better recipes in the literature. In particular, CuCl is supposed to give more conductive deposits, and someone else here in the comments mentioned a paper showing Xylitol doing much better than EtOH or formaldehyde. "laser-induced chemical liquid-phase deposition" (LCLD) seems to be the right keyword to start pulling up most of the literature. Oh, and one last disclaimer: I had a tough time soldering to it, might need to use a reflow oven and paste... or some kind of exotic solder. Or maybe just better cleaning than I did, which was next to none :) Cheers for stopping by, really enjoy your channel :)
Robert Murray-Smith - th-cam.com/users/RobertMurraySmith - has made a conductive ink that might be excellent for making plated through holes in regular pcb's. anyways If this method Cu metalization doesn't work (very interesting to me too), perhaps coating the ceramics in ink, electroplating it with copper and developing it normally with photoresist+etch might work :ø) Edit: Since the ink is conductive, it might also be required to remove it, and I doubt it will be etched away - perhaps blasting it with a laser so it evaporates, like removing an ink tattoo?
@@BreakingTaps did you mean xylene or does the literature really use Xylitol? Not trying to be a dick here i'm genuinely interested in the answer because that would be super weird.
@@Amasarac Haha, no problem. Yep, really xylitol :) here's a quote from one of the papers: "Multiatomic alcohols, sorbitol, xylitol, and glycerol, are shown to be effective reducing agents for performing LCLD at glass-ceramic surfaces" www.researchgate.net/profile/Ilya_Tumkin2/publication/269319964_Laser-Induced_Copper_Deposition_with_Weak_Reducing_Agents/links/55dc513608aed6a199ad097e/Laser-Induced-Copper-Deposition-with-Weak-Reducing-Agents.pdf
I suggest you try the electroplating to stainless steel again but with and without ultrasonic agitation. Also, double check the tube piece you squeeze in the vice, What material are the jaws made of? Try a repeat but with a barrier film between the jaws and the pipe. I'm wondering if the agitation from the laser localised heating is resonating on the metal piece, tension from a rubber band like a finger to a bell would work to determine this. I'm amazed by your work on this channel!
Excellent project. Really interesting. Very well done. Thank you for sharing. I guess the guy from "TheThoughtImporium" might want to hear about this. He is working on a neuron - electrical interface using an electrode matrix on a glass slide. He was hunting for a good process for creating such structures on a glass slide and had teamed up with the guy from Applied Science. The AS guy used a vapor deposition and chemical etching process. It worked, but that process was pretty hard to control and did not have a very good yeald. Looks like your process would handle this much easier. Would be nice to see you two working together to get to see more of his fascinating neuron research.
I might guess that the ripples in the 20x view are from the power rectification going into the diode laser, and how that filters out into the optical power output. e.g. if you don't have a large enough capacitor on the power supply, and you get a tiny 60Hz ripple or some other pattern, then that may not fully attenuate in the output. I wonder how well you could estimate the spacing between ripples, and if you could use the machine velocity to get the frequency Could also be vibration from the motion system, which presumably uses stepper motors. If you are actually able to estimate the spacing, you could compare it against the linear distance from a single microstep. A neat looking pattern any which way!
I really like how close this channel gets to "Applied Science". It already has better production quality than "Thought Emporium". I wonder if it will explode as fast as "Tech Ingredients" did.
Awesome video! Here's an idea, can you use the microscope controller (the one with nanometre accuracy) and etch nano structures on the glass to create structural color like the butterfly wings. I know that laser wavelength is high, but I think Intel uses a process where they pass the laser through a drop of water and that makes it smaller. It seems like a complicated idea, but it would be so awesome if it works.
In conventional electroplating alongside wetting agents in the solution we agitated the workpeice or the solution to avoid spots from hydrogen, it would be interesting to see if that will also help eliminate the spots in this process(If it won't mess with the lazer magic :D)
Also stainless comes in different grades and what makes stainless steel not rust is its other metal content so it might be stainless but have a higher copper content. I don't think a higher zinc content would do that but I'm not sure because I've never performed this experiment.
I wouldn't use aluminum oxide too much. It's not that it will react with anything but it will just turn to corundum. I've been using the same model laser to make Ruby, well attempt to make a good sized Ruby but all you mainly get is Ruby powder and I get some BB size stones. Flame fusion still been my best method for that. I did however find out that this little laser can bead titanium dioxide into raw titanium beads as well. I've been experimenting with different Ruby compositions and trying to make a mono and a polycrystalline laser Crystal to build my own flash pump Ruby laser. Started out as a fun project and has turned in to a 2-year obsession. Experiments can go a long way. Circling around to my main point, the corundum can form a highly reflective surface on the copper and can be slightly dangerous. 😎 I'm sure you already know this but don't trust those glasses that came with that laser. I took styro-pyro advice and bought a set of eagle pair in the right wavelengths at an OD4 and honestly it was the best decision I could have made because these glasses are awesome!
For the copper on copper, what if you applied some "sub-threshold voltage" (i.e. not quite enough to start plating the whole sample) instead of doing it electroless? Seems like that would greatly reduce the etching effect, increase the plating rate, and let you go bigger and deeper.
I think your mystery plating around the edges is due to being a freshly cut sample of stainless... You mention the hypothesis that the passivation of the surface comes into play in the deposition process, but freshly cut stainless will not have had time to reach that passive state.
Instead of glycerin im used sorbitol. By the way, any resin is good reducer, so you can make PCB just on any textolite. Source: Laser-induced chemical liquid phase deposition of copper from aqueous solutions without reducing agents Kochemirovsky,V A et al.
Oh yeah, definitely not very efficient :) I suspect it would probably work best to deposit a very thin seed layer, and then using conventional electroplating after that to build it up
If you cut stainless steel with the same tools you used on less noble steels, iron particles are transferd to the surface. This basicly completly ruins the corrosion properties of stainless steel.
so this etches circuits? could it be done with a DLP liks SLA 3d printing to do it in a shorter time? you said the paper was from the 80s, but DLPs are essentially wide dispersion lasers, but much closer than say an LED or LCD screen, which is why they work for SLA
Thanks! Not yet, but it's on the "things i'd like to try" list :) Ditto to electroplating the LIG... have some vague ideas that it could make for a neat catalyst material or something, assuming the plating process can get inside the pores some without filling in.
Some papers are freely available online (scholar.google.com often has them). Others can be obtained if you have university access, or friends with university access. I think there are subreddits where people provide private copies as well. There are also slightly, uhh, less-legal (depending on where you live) methods like SciHub or LibGen. And you can always pay the publisher, but it's like $30 per paper and so not really a feasibly option for anyone at all imo :)
This is a really good technique, I'm quite impressed. Just a warning, with experience since we manufacture the L-Cheapo line of diode lasers: this will kill your laser VERY quickly with direct reflection! If you wish to avoid destroying your equipment, you need to set the laser at an angle to the workpiece (even a few degrees will do) so it doesn't fire right back into the diode! Note that because you are working with a liquid and gravity is in play, setting the workpiece at an angle will reduce reflections (due to the copper) but not completely eliminate them (due to the surface of the liquid). Better to angle the laser.
if the sapphire is clear isnt it just corundum? the blue color from impurities is what makes it sapphire. chromium impurities make it ruby. like the difference between iron and steel is carbon impurities as well as other metal making steel alloys.
@@darkshadowsx5949 natural sapphires can be almost any color. Impurities are titanium and iron oxide. The carbon in steel isn’t “impurity,” the trace sulfur, silicon, etc.. are.
Thanks! I've gotten a bunch of questions about that, will test it out! Main issue is soldering I think... a quick test with a solder iron didn't work well. I've ordered some solder paste to see if more even heat in an oven works better.
There are some interesting improvements for this in Robert Murray-Smith's channel in his video "993 'Printing' Copper With A Laser". He is solidifying the copper from a dried version of this solution. Seems much simpler if it works just so easily.
Just saw that, very cool! I pinned a comment on this video so other folks would see it... definitely an easier and less-fiddly technique. Might give it a shot myself! :)
Great to hear! I was originally nervous pivoting from the machining-stuff to science-stuff, but I enjoy the science more and frankly, I'll never be a very good machinist relative to others on YT. Or as funny as ToT :)
@@BreakingTaps I actually really like your humour because it's very low-key and humble. So it does not distract attention from the actual content of the video. Sometimes after watching ToT I still don't understand what he was actually doing lol.
So, I have been searching and talking to myself in front of my phone, recently, in search of a rapid prototyping process for the development of PCBs and the potential use of aluminum nitride as a PCB substrate for high performance applications. I was thinking of vacuum chambers and particle beams - but this seems infinitely more reasonable. Even I need thicker films than what would be practical to 'print' using something like this, I could use the initial layer as a seed for a more traditional electroplating process. The spooky algorithm in the machine can occasionally be quite helpful.
Haha "spooky algorithm in the machine" indeed, feels like it's read my mind on occasion as well and served up exactly what I needed. So caveat to this process, the recipe seems to have a big impact on how electrically conductive (and robust) the traces are. There is another comment here somewhere showing a paper which compared different components and xylitol + copper chloride seemed to be the winner. I saw a different paper that compared the durability of the traces, and unfortunately don't remember the details but some recipes stood up to ultrasonic cleaning better than others. Which would probably be important to get the crud off the top and use it as a seed layer. But yeah, otherwise it seems to be a really useful technique as long as your material is transparent! On a more recent project I cheated and used a fiber laser to ablate away a pattern from some adhesive copper tape: th-cam.com/users/postUgyT5bl94pSSUmr7HI14AaABCQ Sorta dirty hack, but it worked :)
Great job, excellent video! Perfect for coping with applied science withdrawal symptoms. Considering the amount of variables it looks like this could be fine tuned for even better results. Have you found any papers using other metals with a similar technique? Subscribed and looking forward to future experiments.
Thanks! I saw some papers that did this with Nickel as well, so I suspect it works with any of the normally platable metals (but don't have proof of that outside copper and nickel).
Of course you can electrolytically deposit copper on stainless steel. When people say you can't what they mean is that the adhesion is very bad. If you had used a knife instead of a file, you'd have seen that you can scrape of huge flakes easily. This is why stainless steel sheets are used in the refining of copper. After the deposition you can neatly break off the stainless steel sheet from the copper plate by just bending it slightly. It's quite amusing how you misunderstood this to mean that it literally does not deposit.
Ooooh, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe! It doesn't feel like it's plated or coated, and didn't chip/flake away when cutting... but I also wasn't really paying attention to that at the time. I'll pop out to the garage tonight and try to file away the top surface, or attempt to etch it or something. Good idea!
So if the first process is based on localized heating of the copper, shouldn't an IR Laser that gets mostly absorbed by the copper be a lot more efficient?
Yeah I think so! Something like an Nd:YAG laser should theoretically work a lot better (assuming you dial it in and don't ablate the copper from too much heat).
@@BreakingTaps ok i just looked up copper adsorption and at normal temperatures IR light is almost completely reflected... dont know why i had that in mind. whoops!
Oh huh, yeah you're right. I was thinking it absorbed better as well... I've definitely seen Nd:YAG fiber lasers etch copper before so assumed it absorbed well. But it might just be due to the pulse power of those lasers which can dump in a ton of power before it has a chance to dissipate? Not sure!
Do you know photoelectric effect? They mean electronic temperature. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi%E2%80%93Dirac_statistics. The wavelength of the laser is more important than the power. You also need enough excitonic lifetime for the reaction to occur. Hence the insulator. For the edge effect, see plasmonics, and topological effects.
Great! I wonder how 405 nm will do. They are not DPSS, so their beam quality is much better, and the energy at those short wavelengths is quite a bit higher. Also, you could try citric acid in your last reaction. Its a great chelating agent for copper. Hopefully it will give it up when needed. All the best!
Interesting, will look into citric acid! And agreed, a 405nm would be interesting. I'm assembling a photolithography system using a 405nm (2W) laser for a different project... might have to shoot it at some of this copper sulfate solution and see what happens :)
photo electric redox reaction. photon initiated electrolysis 20x view, nice weld puddle.... Crusty insulating layer- commonly known as slag. Looks like a weld, sounds like a weld. It's a weld....
Very cool demonstration. One thing maybe to look at is testing with a UV laser or UV leds. Maybe the shorter wavelength/higher energy photons might produce some interesting effects.
Try nickel plating electrolyte in this process with the copper Try the first one but in a vacuum! Try the first one in a vacuum while heating the solution greatly! These will all produce ... Stuff!
Some of that discolouration looks suspiciously like copper oxide. I wonder if a treatment to remove disolved oxygen from your solution before use might give cleaner results. Perhaps a simple degassing step would do the job.
Copper is very easily released from solution on more active metals such as zinc, aluminum, iron. This does not require additional energy sources, because that potential difference, which is given by the metal itself, placed in the electrolyte, is quite enough. After all, this is a school experiment, when an iron nail is dipped into a solution of copper sulfate, and after a while a layer of metallic copper appears on the nail, which, however, is very fragile and can be easily erased with a rag. That's why you got a fully copper-plated piece of stainless steel leaving it in the solution.
love the thinking outside the box. was just thinking about if someone has tried it with a co2 laser, certainly the slide one would have to work on the surface not the obverse due to the low transmission of the wavelength in glass.
Controlling dissolved oxygen concentration will likely help with the quality and rate of deposition of copper in the essentially electroless bath. Too high a concentration of dissolved oxygen can essentially re-etch the copper off. Too low would normally lead to a bath crashing out and plating out too easily onto anything and everything mildly catalytic, like dust, scratches in glass, existing copper, etc... Since you are using a weak bath that doesn't strongly want to plate out and the laser is forcing it, a very low DO concentration may actually work very well. Consider enclosing your experiment and purging the DO in the bath by bubbling nitrogen gas through.
So I can print a circuit on a glass slide using a laser? Or just send my designs off to some company overseas and pay a few cents to have multi-layer boards made…?
man I will have to try this with the copper acetate solution I made for reacting with the aluminum on mylar thermal blankets to strip it and make aluminum acetate in the process (for another process to make quasicrystals of aluminum phosphate, while leaving copper oxide behind for making CCTO for "Join the technicians" channel Jeremiah's Antigravity research something he is doing to test given claims in various papers, in this instance the CCTO is for asymetrical high K low K dielectric material, with the CCTO being the high K material and hopefully being able to fire it in a kiln to shape here before mailing it.
so.. this is depositing on both sides of the glass? So when is the gallium deposition to the copper going to be attempted? How about silver? At the micron level? I think that you are going to need Invar holders when you go small..
Is the copper on the edge of that “stainless” concentrating where the electrical field is greatest? It looks like there is more copper on the corners (where a field would be concentrated).
So this change in the 'resting potential' of the copper. Is it something like the photoelectric effect? As in, the electrons are knocked off the copper? Or the other way around?
alright so im not like big on chemistry so the explanation kind of went over my head in the laser-induced electroplating section but im assuming the solution the glass sits in carries copper atoms (or some material that turns into copper) is formed when the laser strikes the material due to plasma forming at the surface? and since plasma can carry a charge, it enables the solution to deposit copper onto the surface of the glass? feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, mostly just watching because mildly interested
Awesome! I may have to 'borrow' this recipe for some ceramic PCBs 😏
Goodluck! Let me know if you have questions or run into issues. Fair warning, the recipe I ended up was mainly a function of the chemicals I had on hand at the time :) There are definitely better recipes in the literature. In particular, CuCl is supposed to give more conductive deposits, and someone else here in the comments mentioned a paper showing Xylitol doing much better than EtOH or formaldehyde. "laser-induced chemical liquid-phase deposition" (LCLD) seems to be the right keyword to start pulling up most of the literature.
Oh, and one last disclaimer: I had a tough time soldering to it, might need to use a reflow oven and paste... or some kind of exotic solder. Or maybe just better cleaning than I did, which was next to none :)
Cheers for stopping by, really enjoy your channel :)
Can't wait
Robert Murray-Smith - th-cam.com/users/RobertMurraySmith - has made a conductive ink that might be excellent for making plated through holes in regular pcb's. anyways
If this method Cu metalization doesn't work (very interesting to me too), perhaps coating the ceramics in ink, electroplating it with copper and developing it normally with photoresist+etch might work :ø)
Edit: Since the ink is conductive, it might also be required to remove it, and I doubt it will be etched away - perhaps blasting it with a laser so it evaporates, like removing an ink tattoo?
@@BreakingTaps did you mean xylene or does the literature really use Xylitol? Not trying to be a dick here i'm genuinely interested in the answer because that would be super weird.
@@Amasarac Haha, no problem. Yep, really xylitol :) here's a quote from one of the papers: "Multiatomic alcohols, sorbitol, xylitol, and
glycerol, are shown to be effective reducing agents for performing LCLD at glass-ceramic surfaces" www.researchgate.net/profile/Ilya_Tumkin2/publication/269319964_Laser-Induced_Copper_Deposition_with_Weak_Reducing_Agents/links/55dc513608aed6a199ad097e/Laser-Induced-Copper-Deposition-with-Weak-Reducing-Agents.pdf
Funny, it's seems similar to moon dust gaining a charge , and levitating, when hit by sunlight. More or less.
I suggest you try the electroplating to stainless steel again but with and without ultrasonic agitation. Also, double check the tube piece you squeeze in the vice, What material are the jaws made of? Try a repeat but with a barrier film between the jaws and the pipe. I'm wondering if the agitation from the laser localised heating is resonating on the metal piece, tension from a rubber band like a finger to a bell would work to determine this. I'm amazed by your work on this channel!
Excellent project. Really interesting. Very well done. Thank you for sharing.
I guess the guy from "TheThoughtImporium" might want to hear about this.
He is working on a neuron - electrical interface using an electrode matrix on a glass slide.
He was hunting for a good process for creating such structures on a glass slide and had teamed up with the guy from Applied Science.
The AS guy used a vapor deposition and chemical etching process. It worked, but that process was pretty hard to control and did not have a very good yeald.
Looks like your process would handle this much easier. Would be nice to see you two working together to get to see more of his fascinating neuron research.
Neat. I'm wondering if you could tune the frequency of the laser to the vibrational frequency of the copper atoms to heat them more effectively.
I might guess that the ripples in the 20x view are from the power rectification going into the diode laser, and how that filters out into the optical power output. e.g. if you don't have a large enough capacitor on the power supply, and you get a tiny 60Hz ripple or some other pattern, then that may not fully attenuate in the output. I wonder how well you could estimate the spacing between ripples, and if you could use the machine velocity to get the frequency
Could also be vibration from the motion system, which presumably uses stepper motors. If you are actually able to estimate the spacing, you could compare it against the linear distance from a single microstep. A neat looking pattern any which way!
I really like how close this channel gets to "Applied Science". It already has better production quality than "Thought Emporium". I wonder if it will explode as fast as "Tech Ingredients" did.
I'm surprised you haven't tried to layer different metals to make a solid state battery. It would be very easy to do with your technology
Oh! Easier than magnetron sputtering!
This is very good could you do Nickel plating with a laser
Awesome video! Here's an idea, can you use the microscope controller (the one with nanometre accuracy) and etch nano structures on the glass to create structural color like the butterfly wings. I know that laser wavelength is high, but I think Intel uses a process where they pass the laser through a drop of water and that makes it smaller. It seems like a complicated idea, but it would be so awesome if it works.
When you scratched one side with your finger I was like "please don't do the other side" that gave me chills with the headset lol
Anti-ASMR 😂 (sorry about that!)
Yes please.
In conventional electroplating alongside wetting agents in the solution we agitated the workpeice or the solution to avoid spots from hydrogen, it would be interesting to see if that will also help eliminate the spots in this process(If it won't mess with the lazer magic :D)
Also stainless comes in different grades and what makes stainless steel not rust is its other metal content so it might be stainless but have a higher copper content. I don't think a higher zinc content would do that but I'm not sure because I've never performed this experiment.
copper displacement can occour on Fe phase on sus so this why have copper deposit on site and back of sus may be Fe from cutting tool or sus it self.
I wouldn't use aluminum oxide too much. It's not that it will react with anything but it will just turn to corundum. I've been using the same model laser to make Ruby, well attempt to make a good sized Ruby but all you mainly get is Ruby powder and I get some BB size stones. Flame fusion still been my best method for that. I did however find out that this little laser can bead titanium dioxide into raw titanium beads as well. I've been experimenting with different Ruby compositions and trying to make a mono and a polycrystalline laser Crystal to build my own flash pump Ruby laser. Started out as a fun project and has turned in to a 2-year obsession. Experiments can go a long way. Circling around to my main point, the corundum can form a highly reflective surface on the copper and can be slightly dangerous. 😎 I'm sure you already know this but don't trust those glasses that came with that laser. I took styro-pyro advice and bought a set of eagle pair in the right wavelengths at an OD4 and honestly it was the best decision I could have made because these glasses are awesome!
For the copper on copper, what if you applied some "sub-threshold voltage" (i.e. not quite enough to start plating the whole sample) instead of doing it electroless? Seems like that would greatly reduce the etching effect, increase the plating rate, and let you go bigger and deeper.
I think your mystery plating around the edges is due to being a freshly cut sample of stainless... You mention the hypothesis that the passivation of the surface comes into play in the deposition process, but freshly cut stainless will not have had time to reach that passive state.
This is awesome, great job.
Instead of glycerin im used sorbitol. By the way, any resin is good reducer, so you can make PCB just on any textolite. Source: Laser-induced chemical liquid phase deposition of copper from aqueous solutions without reducing agents Kochemirovsky,V A et al.
Never have I subscribed so fast
❤
Cool stuff! Thanks for sharing =D
Seems neat as an experiment but perhaps this probably uses more energy than a standard electrolytic plating?
Oh yeah, definitely not very efficient :) I suspect it would probably work best to deposit a very thin seed layer, and then using conventional electroplating after that to build it up
Stargate special effects around the petrie's
If you cut stainless steel with the same tools you used on less noble steels, iron particles are transferd to the surface. This basicly completly ruins the corrosion properties of stainless steel.
Looks like your stainless sample needed to be passivated before plating (exposed iron in the cut steel would need removed)
7:19 is that fish?????!!!!!
make a glass circuit
dissolving glass then printing it is quite hard for the diy 'down the garden shed' maker
If u could just lower the dish on z axis, its a copper printer
so this etches circuits? could it be done with a DLP liks SLA 3d printing to do it in a shorter time? you said the paper was from the 80s, but DLPs are essentially wide dispersion lasers, but much closer than say an LED or LCD screen, which is why they work for SLA
Another super awesome video! Have you tried plating LIG with this method?
Thanks! Not yet, but it's on the "things i'd like to try" list :) Ditto to electroplating the LIG... have some vague ideas that it could make for a neat catalyst material or something, assuming the plating process can get inside the pores some without filling in.
Can this be taken to the extreme and used for metal 3d printing?
Hi, you link to the pdf file of the article? Thanks
great video, I'm a bit late but what laser output power would be needed for an ablation process?
Could this be used to deposit copper traces on flexible plastics, like acetal or polyimade, to make flexible circuits at home?
If you darken the glass, e.g. just fill with shapie in the printed area, does it deposit better on glass?
Not sure, it's a good idea! I'll give it a shot if I try this again
Yay
Jonas Salk?
Its probably 201 , thats a bit ferrous. You need 304 SS or better.
stress accelerate electroplating
3D Printing
cool,how do u get access to papers? is there a fee?
Some papers are freely available online (scholar.google.com often has them). Others can be obtained if you have university access, or friends with university access. I think there are subreddits where people provide private copies as well. There are also slightly, uhh, less-legal (depending on where you live) methods like SciHub or LibGen. And you can always pay the publisher, but it's like $30 per paper and so not really a feasibly option for anyone at all imo :)
What is the power of your laser?
Edit: (not 50W, was thinking of the pulsed laser i use in other videos.) This laser was a "20W" blue diode laser
This is getting me applied science, tech ingredients or thought emporium vibes.
That means a lot to me, I'm a big fan of all three of those channels! Thanks!
Tech ingredients and thought emporium are two of my top applied science channels. I definitely noticed similarity in quality of learning on all 3!
Let us pray he is a _Holographic chocolate and Banana brandy-sort of scientist!_
This is a really good technique, I'm quite impressed. Just a warning, with experience since we manufacture the L-Cheapo line of diode lasers: this will kill your laser VERY quickly with direct reflection! If you wish to avoid destroying your equipment, you need to set the laser at an angle to the workpiece (even a few degrees will do) so it doesn't fire right back into the diode!
Note that because you are working with a liquid and gravity is in play, setting the workpiece at an angle will reduce reflections (due to the copper) but not completely eliminate them (due to the surface of the liquid). Better to angle the laser.
Oh, that's a good tip! Will start putting a slight angle on the diode from now on
Laser specs?
@@donaldviszneki8251 Ours is the L-Cheapo MK7.
For cheap sapphire blanks, look at replacement watch crystals. Should cost $4 for a single 40mm blank.
Genius! Thanks for the tip, will look into grabbing a few
if the sapphire is clear isnt it just corundum?
the blue color from impurities is what makes it sapphire. chromium impurities make it ruby.
like the difference between iron and steel is carbon impurities as well as other metal making steel alloys.
@@darkshadowsx5949 I've heard people say "saphire" regardless of what impurities are in it, including what most people would call ruby.
@@darkshadowsx5949 natural sapphires can be almost any color. Impurities are titanium and iron oxide. The carbon in steel isn’t “impurity,” the trace sulfur, silicon, etc.. are.
This is awesome, you should try it on FR4 circuit board material.
Very Applied Science feel to this video. Wonder if you can build a circuit on a transparent substrate using this technique.
Thanks! I've gotten a bunch of questions about that, will test it out! Main issue is soldering I think... a quick test with a solder iron didn't work well. I've ordered some solder paste to see if more even heat in an oven works better.
@@BreakingTaps Run the circuit board you have fabricated through a tinning bath before soldering? th-cam.com/video/Hsw3lOnHaas/w-d-xo.html
Oh, neat! Didn't realize that was easily done... will look into that. I bet that would help considerably
I'm 4 videos in on your channel, subbed after 1st vid.
Woo! Thanks for watching :)
There are some interesting improvements for this in
Robert Murray-Smith's channel in his video "993 'Printing' Copper With A Laser". He is solidifying the copper from a dried version of this solution. Seems much simpler if it works just so easily.
Just saw that, very cool! I pinned a comment on this video so other folks would see it... definitely an easier and less-fiddly technique. Might give it a shot myself! :)
So it's basically the magneto optical affect applied to electroplating. Genius.
I definitely prefer this "Applied Science"-type experimental content rather than "This Old Tony"-type machining content.
Great to hear! I was originally nervous pivoting from the machining-stuff to science-stuff, but I enjoy the science more and frankly, I'll never be a very good machinist relative to others on YT. Or as funny as ToT :)
@@BreakingTaps I actually really like your humour because it's very low-key and humble. So it does not distract attention from the actual content of the video. Sometimes after watching ToT I still don't understand what he was actually doing lol.
So, I have been searching and talking to myself in front of my phone, recently, in search of a rapid prototyping process for the development of PCBs and the potential use of aluminum nitride as a PCB substrate for high performance applications.
I was thinking of vacuum chambers and particle beams - but this seems infinitely more reasonable. Even I need thicker films than what would be practical to 'print' using something like this, I could use the initial layer as a seed for a more traditional electroplating process.
The spooky algorithm in the machine can occasionally be quite helpful.
Haha "spooky algorithm in the machine" indeed, feels like it's read my mind on occasion as well and served up exactly what I needed.
So caveat to this process, the recipe seems to have a big impact on how electrically conductive (and robust) the traces are. There is another comment here somewhere showing a paper which compared different components and xylitol + copper chloride seemed to be the winner. I saw a different paper that compared the durability of the traces, and unfortunately don't remember the details but some recipes stood up to ultrasonic cleaning better than others. Which would probably be important to get the crud off the top and use it as a seed layer.
But yeah, otherwise it seems to be a really useful technique as long as your material is transparent! On a more recent project I cheated and used a fiber laser to ablate away a pattern from some adhesive copper tape: th-cam.com/users/postUgyT5bl94pSSUmr7HI14AaABCQ Sorta dirty hack, but it worked :)
Great job, excellent video! Perfect for coping with applied science withdrawal symptoms.
Considering the amount of variables it looks like this could be fine tuned for even better results. Have you found any papers using other metals with a similar technique?
Subscribed and looking forward to future experiments.
Thanks! I saw some papers that did this with Nickel as well, so I suspect it works with any of the normally platable metals (but don't have proof of that outside copper and nickel).
..it has frickin' lasers, ofcourse we like!
Of course you can electrolytically deposit copper on stainless steel. When people say you can't what they mean is that the adhesion is very bad. If you had used a knife instead of a file, you'd have seen that you can scrape of huge flakes easily. This is why stainless steel sheets are used in the refining of copper. After the deposition you can neatly break off the stainless steel sheet from the copper plate by just bending it slightly.
It's quite amusing how you misunderstood this to mean that it literally does not deposit.
If you kept plating for a long time, can you make a 3d structure?
This is the first video of yours I've seen, and I'm getting massive applied science channel vibes. Which is a huge component BTW. Loved this video
After seeing this I have to take a shot at laser atomic deposition 🤩
very good! Full support from Endurance lasers!!!
Thanks! Was actually just looking at your 532nm DPSS lasers. I keep finding a need for a pulsed, shorter wavelength. Will be in touch!
17:15 20x view: Looks like the bead from an automated welder.
Could that stainless have had some sort of plating layer on, i.e. zinc?
Ooooh, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe! It doesn't feel like it's plated or coated, and didn't chip/flake away when cutting... but I also wasn't really paying attention to that at the time. I'll pop out to the garage tonight and try to file away the top surface, or attempt to etch it or something. Good idea!
@@BreakingTaps yeah... give it bit of an acid bath.... pickling????
Its like a welding pattern. Can you check the conductivity?
is the stainless coating its oxide layer being deposited on and not the actual metal ?
I love a bit of chemistry in between my machining in my own workshop... so this is great.
So if the first process is based on localized heating of the copper, shouldn't an IR Laser that gets mostly absorbed by the copper be a lot more efficient?
Yeah I think so! Something like an Nd:YAG laser should theoretically work a lot better (assuming you dial it in and don't ablate the copper from too much heat).
@@BreakingTaps ok i just looked up copper adsorption and at normal temperatures IR light is almost completely reflected... dont know why i had that in mind. whoops!
Oh huh, yeah you're right. I was thinking it absorbed better as well... I've definitely seen Nd:YAG fiber lasers etch copper before so assumed it absorbed well. But it might just be due to the pulse power of those lasers which can dump in a ton of power before it has a chance to dissipate? Not sure!
Yes i think pulse energy is more important than absorption in that case
@@ramous5182 Dont forget your solution's absorption properties as well. Water is pretty opaque to most IR
Huh, I might have to try this. I was wanting to etch circuits onto glass. This is way better than how I was going to do it.
Do you know photoelectric effect? They mean electronic temperature. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi%E2%80%93Dirac_statistics. The wavelength of the laser is more important than the power. You also need enough excitonic lifetime for the reaction to occur. Hence the insulator. For the edge effect, see plasmonics, and topological effects.
Great! I wonder how 405 nm will do. They are not DPSS, so their beam quality is much better, and the energy at those short wavelengths is quite a bit higher. Also, you could try citric acid in your last reaction. Its a great chelating agent for copper. Hopefully it will give it up when needed. All the best!
Interesting, will look into citric acid! And agreed, a 405nm would be interesting. I'm assembling a photolithography system using a 405nm (2W) laser for a different project... might have to shoot it at some of this copper sulfate solution and see what happens :)
Great video! Is the method could work on plastic sheets? I mean kapton, mylar, BOP?
I'm not sure to be honest, maybe? If they are clear it would _probably_ work but I'm not sure :)
photo electric redox reaction. photon initiated electrolysis 20x view, nice weld puddle.... Crusty insulating layer- commonly known as slag. Looks like a weld, sounds like a weld. It's a weld....
Laser-induced Chemical Liquid phase Deposition.. Seems like it could be used with SLA 3d printers?
Very cool demonstration. One thing maybe to look at is testing with a UV laser or UV leds. Maybe the shorter wavelength/higher energy photons might produce some interesting effects.
yes, also trying X-rays to ionize it better.
Try nickel plating electrolyte in this process with the copper
Try the first one but in a vacuum!
Try the first one in a vacuum while heating the solution greatly!
These will all produce ... Stuff!
Some of that discolouration looks suspiciously like copper oxide. I wonder if a treatment to remove disolved oxygen from your solution before use might give cleaner results. Perhaps a simple degassing step would do the job.
Hey! Dunno if you’ll see this, but have you considered attempting any sonoluminescence setups? I would love to see you succeed at that
I haven't, but agree that sounds cool to capture on high speed! Added to the list of potential future projects :)
@@BreakingTaps I don’t know if “laser-induced sonoluminescence” is a thing but if so, I reckon you’ve already got the tools for it ;)
WTF? I have known about you for 90 seconds and already think you're an alien from outer space!!!....
Copper is very easily released from solution on more active metals such as zinc, aluminum, iron. This does not require additional energy sources, because that potential difference, which is given by the metal itself, placed in the electrolyte, is quite enough. After all, this is a school experiment, when an iron nail is dipped into a solution of copper sulfate, and after a while a layer of metallic copper appears on the nail, which, however, is very fragile and can be easily erased with a rag. That's why you got a fully copper-plated piece of stainless steel leaving it in the solution.
love the thinking outside the box. was just thinking about if someone has tried it with a co2 laser, certainly the slide one would have to work on the surface not the obverse due to the low transmission of the wavelength in glass.
Controlling dissolved oxygen concentration will likely help with the quality and rate of deposition of copper in the essentially electroless bath.
Too high a concentration of dissolved oxygen can essentially re-etch the copper off. Too low would normally lead to a bath crashing out and plating out too easily onto anything and everything mildly catalytic, like dust, scratches in glass, existing copper, etc... Since you are using a weak bath that doesn't strongly want to plate out and the laser is forcing it, a very low DO concentration may actually work very well. Consider enclosing your experiment and purging the DO in the bath by bubbling nitrogen gas through.
Wow, the glass deposition technique may be very useful for making brain cells substrates for bio computers very easily
Oxidized formaldehyde is formic acid/formate (depending on pH, of course).
So I can print a circuit on a glass slide using a laser?
Or just send my designs off to some company overseas and pay a few cents to have multi-layer boards made…?
man I will have to try this with the copper acetate solution I made for reacting with the aluminum on mylar thermal blankets to strip it and make aluminum acetate in the process (for another process to make quasicrystals of aluminum phosphate, while leaving copper oxide behind for making CCTO for "Join the technicians" channel Jeremiah's Antigravity research something he is doing to test given claims in various papers, in this instance the CCTO is for asymetrical high K low K dielectric material, with the CCTO being the high K material and hopefully being able to fire it in a kiln to shape here before mailing it.
if its all about optical generated heat, so in theory, 1064 nm laser will do a much better job?
I wonder if this would work with Graphene/Graphite on glass instead of copper!
wait... why does the deposition self extinguish? if that can be avoided... then you could 3d print miniature copper boaties ~
You're saying things in English, but I guess my brain is full. Thanks though.
I love this side project. I've never heard of this before. Very interesting. Thanks.
Sodium Bicarbonate and Tartaric Acid... erm... baking powder
9:26 Too high voltage? But if the copper is properly attached, then I guess it just works.
Wow , plating so thick its textured. Hmm, print a coil and try to put ac threw it? Wonder if it could work over blue titanium plating .
so.. this is depositing on both sides of the glass? So when is the gallium deposition to the copper going to be attempted? How about silver? At the micron level? I think that you are going to need Invar holders when you go small..
Is the copper on the edge of that “stainless” concentrating where the electrical field is greatest? It looks like there is more copper on the corners (where a field would be concentrated).
If you turn it all sideways, and lift the material out of the bath as you go, you could prevent the issue of the etching removing what you deposited.
So this change in the 'resting potential' of the copper. Is it something like the photoelectric effect? As in, the electrons are knocked off the copper? Or the other way around?
alright so im not like
big on chemistry so the explanation kind of went over my head in the laser-induced electroplating section
but im assuming the solution the glass sits in carries copper atoms (or some material that turns into copper) is formed when the laser strikes the material due to plasma forming at the surface? and since plasma can carry a charge, it enables the solution to deposit copper onto the surface of the glass? feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, mostly just watching because mildly interested
Can we see the result with your atomic force microscope??! 😃❤️
polished stainless molds are used to electroform shapes that are easily removed...nickel is common.