In northeastern Argentina, the is rehilada, so it sounds like the in "closure", but the is distinguished, so it sounds like the examples you gave. It sounds really cool.
As Spaniard from the north, born in 1978 we were thought that they were pronunced differently but nobody told us how to do it. So i have never noticed the difference when someone does it or not. So basically we are all yeistas. Good video by the way.
This is a wonderfully useful series. I wish I had discovered it years ago. It answers questions no one else seems to care about. I also appreciate the use of the IPA and other linguistic details. Abrazos a ti.
In most areas of Mexico, ll/y is pronounced like English y in normal speech (like yellow), but in emphatic speech, especially outside of northern Mexico, can be like the harder approximate.
I often help speakers learning Spanish with their pronunciation and it always trigger me hearing y and ll pronounced as English y, coming from a region where it's realized as a voiced palatal fricative with strong friction. IMO English speakers are particularly stubborn about changing how to pronounce this sound, as they've been taught is "simply a y" and that's it. Hearing things like eios, cabaio or anío tilts me. I always recommend your videos to a lot of people, so thank you for taking the time.
Thank you for your words of encouragement. I agree with you about weak pronunciation of ll/y. "Cabaio" and so forth. Drives me crazy. There is no dialect of Spanish where the ll/y is as weak (vocalic) as the English y. Even in Spanish dialects in which it is pronounced most weakly, it has more consonant quality than English y.
In my experiences with Argentinos, it seems as those from larger more Urban areas such as Buenos Aires have the more distinct -sh sound. The farther north or East you go it seems like it’s more of the -ch or -j. That’s just what I’ve heard
Be careful because that only applies along some very specific geographical lines. In some large cities like Córdoba or Mendoza, for example, most people won't use SH at all, unless they come from areas where that sound is used which, in the case of some provinces, might actually be more rural. In the case of the Córdoba province, for example, you will hear SH, /J/ or a straight up I vowel sound, depending on the region, social class, etcetera.
I don't know of any confusion between the -y/-ll and -ch sounds in Argentina. Incidentally, I remember a video that spoke about the Argentine accent, and they talked about how "che" is used, but they would say "che" and "she" interchangeably, which was really weird to listen to.
That form is more common in the Rio de la Plata region (covering most of Buenos Aires Province, Capital Federal and the center to south of Santa Fe Province), in which you have more than a 40% of the country's population. But the further you go from that region, the less common that form is
We actually use the voiced palatal approximant in most of Mexico. The English y sound is more common in New Mexican Spanish and Mexican Americans in general. In the state of Tabasco the pronunciation is just like in Argentina. That's the native pronunciation of the current president Andrés Manuel López Obrador. Sometimes he uses that pronunciation.
th-cam.com/video/bUemnlnHT6E/w-d-xo.html. I partially disagree, and would think you're educated, from central Mexico. Check out how he (from Sonora) pronounces y and ll, like yellow, and he is not Mexican American. He's also native, like me (Tijuana). In north west Mexico, very much y/ll is in normal speech like English yellow. th-cam.com/video/M2IQuXbExjU/w-d-xo.html -- here these guys are from Sinaloa. (Btw, the sh for ch is not common among natives in TIjuana, Tecate or Ensenda, but it is in Mexicali.)
Sorry I didn't get around to viewing this earlier - was going through a bout of depression. I wasn't notified of the upload and didn't notice it was up for over a month. After watching it, I can see that this is very helpful and clears up my confusion of the poorly-explained sound. I have new insights into the world of and . Or should I say, el mundo de la y de la . ¡Muchas gracias!
It's a mix actually in Philippine Spanish, I guess it depends on where and when the word came or introduced: ceboyas and cabayos but calye and mantequilya
Great video, you should also talk about the pronunciation of the Spanish J. It can be pronounced /ꭓ/, /x/ or /h/ depending on the dialect. In Spain it is normally pronounced /ꭓ/, in countries like Mexico, Argentina and Peru the sound /x/ is the most used, whereas in Colombia, most of the Caribbean countries and South Spain the sound /h/ is used instead.
Philippine Spanish maintains a distinction between and . Castilian Spanish had taught /ll/ to be pronounced as /ly/. In the same way that /ñ/ was taught to be /ny/. E.g. llave ~ lyabe; cavallo ~ cabalyo.
I’ve looked at so many videos and articles about this, but none of them fully or accurately explained the different pronunciations I thought I was hearing. I think I was gradually starting to get it by piecing together little bits of all the various different explanations, but this video says it all so wish I’d seen it earlier! Looks like some of your other videos address other things I’ve wondered about but no one else seems to explain, so will definitely check them out!
The first “LL” that sounds like elie is used a lot in Andean zones, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the Quechua influence in us, since “LL” is a very standard and important sound for the language. (Examples of Quechua words: Llama, llaqta, killa, kallpa, allinllam, llanqay, chilliku)
Interesting observation, but the elye definitely derives from old Spanish. And it is pronounced by people who are not Quichua speakers, nor even influenced by Quichua speakers. So I think it must be a coincidence.
@@tenminutespanish oh yeah not saying it was originated from that, but at least in Quechua zones, having that other sound so commonly used in the second most talked language (and a lot of our grandparents/parents spoke Quechua before Spanish) probably helped in keeping it in use until now (it’s not an easy sound to pronounce if you’re not used to it, my friends at the coast tend to have trouble with it when they try)
Great video! Thanks As a Spaniard (central Spain, born in 1982), I have never noticed anyone (from here) pronouncing them differently. I don't have much experience with all the dialects, so that's only my personal experience. I've always learnt that the distinction exists, so maybe I've never met anyone who does it or maybe I haven't noticed.
@@iasmina5359 Using the pronunciatons for "llamar" (from Spanish people) on Forvo as a reference: forvo.com/word/llamar/#es_es I would say Sento's and bliks' pronunciations are the closest to mine, but ieliei's has some of that "li" sound. er9834l's sounds to me a bit in between.
And even within dialects there's variation based on where it stands in the word afaik, there is always more consonant quality when it follows a backed vowel (I and E) such as in the word Amarillo This is something I've noticed in all dialects. so Y sounds become J sounds, and SH sounds become ZH there are other ways that different vowels effect the LL-Y sounds But I think the sound following back vowels is the most consistent and the one that would help the most people to sound more native
Excellent video! I had wondered what the difference would be between LL an Y in dialects which have a distinction between this two, and this was very informative. I realised that I’ve been intuitively using the voiced palatal approximant and it’s funny because my Mexican friend always corrects me when I say that sound. I’ve asked countless other Latin friends who have all insisted that it sounds fine - now I know why she has such an issue with it!
In the majority of Italian accents (as well as the standard) the 'gl' and 'gn' sounds are always geminated, so be careful of that (I believe in older, northern pronunciations, it isn't geminated.) In this instance, it would be better to transfer the sound from Portuguese, which is effectively 1:1. When I move over to Portuguese after I've been speaking Italian a lot, the "lh" that comes out is too long, and results in either weird looks or sometimes misunderstandings (and I assume the issue would be even greater in Spanish where the sound is even less recognizable.) Rural places in northern Spain carry on with this pronunciation, and it can be heard in older songs, especially if you listen to people with ceceo, but it's so subtle that it is rarely noticed. This sound change is super common, in Rome one can here someone say something like "fijo" instead of "figlio" but this is dependent on the phonetic environment. Or in the past, if we look only at the "li" of Latin "filius" (and ignore the "f" that eventually becomes "h" and then silent): [filius] > [filʲo] > [fiʎo] (with the same sound we see represented traditionally with "ll," as in "cavalho" or "filho" in Portuguese) > [fiʝo] (most common pronunciation today) > [fiʒo] (traditional rioplatense pronunciation) > [fiʃo] (cosmopolitan rioplatense pronunciation) > [fiχo] (standard pronunciation of "j") Excellent video.
Great video! Could you also make a video on neutral castillian spanish because you mostly talk about the latin american dialects and only mention the spanish ones.
That's an excellent suggestion. Unfortunately, I have limited personal experience with the small details of Spanish in Spain. (I have made one video on sibilants in Spain.) My personal experience is almost entirely with Spanish in Latin America. I have only visited Spain a couple of times. I fear that if I tried to flesh out the details of Spanish from Spain I would make too many errors. Let me think about it. I can probably research it and come up with something decent and then recruit some friends from Spain to help me with the sample words and phrases so they're accurate.
"Neutral" "Castilian" Spanish? -- in Latin America and most of Spain, we all speak some form of Castilian, and neutral, no such thing, really. But you probably mean Spanish from north-central Spain. I would just say that there is no need to cover, speak like you do already, they will understand. Just be authentic and no worries about sounding Latin American (badge of honor actually), unless you're doing some type of undercover work, then I won't ask.
Albanian has the same sound written as "gj". It's represented as /ɟ͡ʝ/ in the IPA and is pronounced by basically putting your tongue in position to say a Y but trying pronouncing a J with your tongue still in the position to say a Y.
While I have seen the lambda λ used in Spanish textbooks, the IPA symbol for the voiced palatal lateral is actually an upside down Y: ʎ. Of course it’s easy to mistake the two!
It interesting that in some dialects Y and LL are useful. But in most they aren't. It similar situation in Polish in most of our dialects CH and H( Ipa phonetic for them symbol X)are pronounced exactly the same and only some dialects. do people differentiate between them. fun video by the way my spanish pronunciation model for Y and LL is yeismo. I hope me using yeismo is ok.
The sound change j > sh already occurred in Spanish many centuries ago! So this would be the second time that this sound change is observed in our language
Almost all Spanish loanwords in the Philippines that have 'll' are pronounce as an /ʎ/ like tornilyo, martilyo, kastilyo etc. Except for kabayo(caballo).
I'm trying to learn Spanish, based in Mexico, and I still have a mix of y, j and sh sounds. I am Filipino and I am used to the elie sound, and, could be having a lisp affect my pronounciation as well?
Hey, i'm back to your video again because I wanted to ask if ll and y distinction can appear in non-distinction countries due to socio-economic background? Today I was watching a video of a mexican teenager who is more "well to do" and he pronounced "callate" with distinction, it was even more obvious because his friends did not pronounce it like that. There's not much information online so I'm counting on you! Thank you!
Absolutely! Ll/y distinction is not just geographical but also socio-cultural. I'm not familiar with the particulars in Mexico, but in Ecuador it is associated with extreme "correctness" in pronunciation, or at least that's how it was 30 years ago.
I feel comfortable pronouncing "Ll " and "y" as the English "y" but someone said that it sounds gringo and that it is better to pronounce Ll and y as the English "j". So I was wondering if there’re native speakers who pronounce it as the English “y”
Not there aren't natives who pronounce Spanish ll like English y. Not quite. There are natives from northern Mexico who say that Spanish ll is the same as English y, but I don't think they know exactly how English y is pronounced. I have a whole video answering exactly your question. Here's the link: th-cam.com/video/1SRSySfkKM4/w-d-xo.html
If you do use the traditional of «ll», how is the preceding s pronounced? Does the preceding s influence how «ll» is pronounced? I.E.- nos llamos, os llamáis.
I want to follow your advice of pronouncing the y/ll as the voiced paladar fricative, to be as neutral as possible... yet for the life of me I cannot figure out how td pronounce it! How do you suggest that one learns this? On the other hand, I can pronounce [j] and [ʒ] without issue. I know that [ʒ] is not neutral on an international level, but for purposes of speaking "international" Spanish, would you recommend more [j] or [ʒ]?
@@matthewdimicelli4191 I honestly don't know what to call the sound I refer to here. It isn't the typical approximant [j] and it isn't the fricative. It's kinda in between...? It's pronounced by bringing the anterior dorsum of the tongue close to the anterior wall of the dome of the palate. I couldn't tell you how to do that in words.
In some rural areas of northern Mexico people use more the Y sound (the vowel-like sound) some even take it to the extreme to pronounce the Y as an I in Spanish, in other words very similar to the Y in English, example: "Hermosiio" instead of Hermosillo. Some Andalusians in Spain do this as well. It's the very, very, very opposite to what some Argentinians do with the "sh", strange coincidence hah? look at both countries in the map, they are in the opposites ends of Latin America.
Not many years ago I spent a couple weeks studying Spanish in Salamanca, Spain. There the instructors insisted that the Salamanca region features the purest Spanish pronunciation anywhere, and I was wise to being studying with them. They assured me that the correct pronunciation of "ll" is [ʎ]. My Spanish phonetics professor from Mexico, with a PhD in linguistics, tells me that had I studied in Valladolid I would have been told that THEY, and not the salmantinos, speak the purest Spanish. However, they would have agreed that the "ll" is properly pronounced as [ʎ].
Actually the pronunciation of those letters in mexican spanish is like the "j" in english or it's pronounced as in Spain and the one you did is the mexican american accent wich is wrong since is already mixed or maybe not wrong but it sounds more like an american speaking spanish, the rest of the country pronounces those letters correct but it also depends on de region.
I would say that it depends on the region. I speak "correctly" too and in normal speech I pronounce y and ll like y in yellow, and so do most people i've known in northern or northwestern mexico. Some mexican americans may produce a very almost vowel like sound, where villa and vía may sound almost the same. I don't consider the harder /dj/ sound more prestigious, just more emphatic when hearing another Mexican. Often I smell some type of hyper correction attempt to speak "properly." In the northwest, it's a little more common to hear in official speeches that are being overly-enunciated.
Hi , thank you very much for that video ! Can you or someone else tell me in dialects of what regions/countries the LL pronounced as Y (or with similar sound) in English ?
To the best of my knowledge, not many. I only know of some dialects near the US/Mexico border. I do not recommend pronouncing ll like English y. It is considered foreign-sounding by most native Spanish speakers.
Hi! Do you have a video on how to properly enunciate the "ci" sound like in "canción" and "ciudad?" Are there also differences in the way it is said between European Spanish and in the Americas? I'm Filipino and I plan to start learning Spanish soon (leaning into Mexican Spanish) and hopefully learning more about it will help get rid of the lazy way I pronounce the Spanish loan words in Tagalog (Ciudad is spelled as Siyudad but said as Shudad). We also have the same issue with the "Di" sound in Diez and Dios = Spelled as Diyes and Diyos but most of us say it as Jess and Joss.
I don't have videos on those subjects, because there is nothing special about them. What I mean, is there is no special rule governing "di" in Spanish. d is just pronounced [d]. In Mexican Spanish, the c before i and e is pronounced [s]. I do have a video on that that I'll link at the end of this post. I do need to tell you, though, that ciudad is not "siyudad". There is no y sound in that word. It is "siudad". And there is no y sound in diez and Dios. They are NOT "diyes" and "diyos". They are "dies" and "dios". The concept for you to understand there is how to pronounce Spanish diphthongs. So, I'll link two videos that I think you should check out. Pronunciation of c before e and i: th-cam.com/video/hbTi9382lbI/w-d-xo.html Diphthongs: th-cam.com/video/THhSeT5YZQM/w-d-xo.html
Not many years ago I spent a couple weeks studying Spanish in Salamanca, Spain. There the instructors assured me that the Salamanca region features the purest Spanish pronunciation anywhere, and that the correct pronunciation of "ll" is [ʎ]. My university phonetics professor from Mexico, with a PhD in linguistics, tells me that had I spent some time studying in Valladolid I would have heard that THEY, not the salmantinos, speak the purest Spanish. But they would agree that "ll" should be pronounced [ʎ].
Yes, you are correct. It is customary in some schools of Spanish studies to represent it with lambda, though, and that's how I learned it. My phonetic transcription is all screwed up, partly because within Spanish studies they don't strictly use IPA.
I know you watched my video on ll/y and j/ge/gi, because you left a long and thoughtful comment. Ok, so based on that video, how would you answer your own question here?
@@kingjimmycraftofcalderonia2017 Yes, that is exactly true. ll/y is a consonant sound. The weakest pronunciation of ll/y is still more consonant-like than any version of i. And you have to remember that a large majority of Spanish dialects pronounce ll/y like a soft j or zh. Nothing at all like an i or an English y.
So in Mexico, they have tuteo, vowel-like yeísmo, and seseo; Rioplatenese has voseo, consonant-like yeísmo, and seseo; and Madrileño Spanish has tuteo, neutral yeísmo, and distinción. So easy to understand.
In Mexico, we call LL like double L and Y we call it Y griega and I can say that the sound of the double L and Y is almost the same as Spain Castellano, In Argentina Double l sound like sh maybe for the Italian roots that they have very strong. Saludos desde Sonora Mexico, if you have a question about Spanish or Castellano ask me maybe I can help!
I'm still having a lot of trouble hearing the difference between the "Mexican Y" and the voiced palatal approximant. I'm starting to feel like my headphones are broken, or I should get my hearing tested.
My wife is Chilean and she does not pronounce the LL this way. It's hard to describe, but I can't imitate it. It's kind of like a weird in-between of the Buenos Aires pronunciation and standard LL sound. It's more similar to an English J than an L but it's not the same sound. Hard to describe and I wish I could imitate it better, but I can't.
@@tenminutespanish First of all thank you for the video, I understand how to do the ''voiced palatal approximant'' but you said there is another sound that sounds like english ''j'' like in the word ''conllevar'' and I don't understand how to make this sound or what should I do in my mouth to produce this sound
@@orfrisbee2121 You're sooo welcome. It makes me very happy that you like the video. Yes, in words where /n/ or /l/ precede the palatal approximant, the palatal approximant is pronounced stronger, more like the English in words like "jump" and "jelly". [ʤ] I wish I could tell you exactly what to do to produce the sound. It is literally just a slightly softer English sound.
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion! I always appreciate the input of native speakers. The only publication I could find on this topic was from 1974. (Torreblanca, Máximo: «Estado actual del lleísmo y de la h aspirada en el noroeste de la provincia de Toledo», en Revista de dialectología y tradiciones populares, Tomo 30, Cuaderno 1-2, 1974, págs. 77-90.) Apparently it is much less common in in Spain than in Latin America. "En España puede haber lleísmo en cualquier parte..., aunque existen ciertas áreas pequeñas en que parece ser lleísmo dialectal... El término lleísmo no lo recogen diccionarios como el DRAE y el CLAVE, quizá porque en gran parte no es fenómeno peninsular. Pero, dada la amplitud y frecuencia con que aparece este fenómeno en Hispanoamérica, quizá debería incluirlo." www.wikilengua.org/index.php/Lle%C3%ADsmo#endnote_lle
5:42 This is how I pronounce these words. That's why I hate it when other Spanish speakers pronounce foreign words with sh as ch. Like saying "chow" instead of "show". It hurts my ears so much. One thing I noticed. We normally distinguish very clearly words like yerba and hierba. There's a yerba in Argentina called "hierbital". However I've heard people pronounce it as "yerbital" (more accurately "sherbital"). I'd never say it like that. It'd be as bad as pronouncing the word "hielo" as "shelo".
You know, I'll write this OFTEN but, Language coming out of one's own mouth is a VERY personal thing. As I've said many times, saying something wrong, «as if you were an idiot» just to be arrogant or difficult is low class. HOWEVER, let's say you're enchanted with, enamored with, enthralled by the sound of «ly» and you WANT to say it, I don't know, perhaps in your mind to preserve the Spanish language, to feel the blood of Cervantes pulsing between your ears, into your heart, because you love Spain and Spaniards so much that you can't hold back from this expression. Well, then screw everyone else and you do you! I still don´t get the whole Argentinian shhhrrllllaayyyaa thing or whatever.
![The best trilled [r] video yet!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/joVgJUO74Mg/mqdefault.jpg)
In northeastern Argentina, the is rehilada, so it sounds like the in "closure", but the is distinguished, so it sounds like the examples you gave. It sounds really cool.
Very interesting!
As Spaniard from the north, born in 1978 we were thought that they were pronunced differently but nobody told us how to do it. So i have never noticed the difference when someone does it or not. So basically we are all yeistas. Good video by the way.
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion and your kind words.
This is a wonderfully useful series. I wish I had discovered it years ago. It answers questions no one else seems to care about. I also appreciate the use of the IPA and other linguistic details. Abrazos a ti.
In most areas of Mexico, ll/y is pronounced like English y in normal speech (like yellow), but in emphatic speech, especially outside of northern Mexico, can be like the harder approximate.
I often help speakers learning Spanish with their pronunciation and it always trigger me hearing y and ll pronounced as English y, coming from a region where it's realized as a voiced palatal fricative with strong friction.
IMO English speakers are particularly stubborn about changing how to pronounce this sound, as they've been taught is "simply a y" and that's it.
Hearing things like eios, cabaio or anío tilts me.
I always recommend your videos to a lot of people, so thank you for taking the time.
Thank you for your words of encouragement. I agree with you about weak pronunciation of ll/y. "Cabaio" and so forth. Drives me crazy. There is no dialect of Spanish where the ll/y is as weak (vocalic) as the English y. Even in Spanish dialects in which it is pronounced most weakly, it has more consonant quality than English y.
In my experiences with Argentinos, it seems as those from larger more Urban areas such as Buenos Aires have the more distinct -sh sound. The farther north or East you go it seems like it’s more of the -ch or -j. That’s just what I’ve heard
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion!
Be careful because that only applies along some very specific geographical lines. In some large cities like Córdoba or Mendoza, for example, most people won't use SH at all, unless they come from areas where that sound is used which, in the case of some provinces, might actually be more rural. In the case of the Córdoba province, for example, you will hear SH, /J/ or a straight up I vowel sound, depending on the region, social class, etcetera.
I don't know of any confusion between the -y/-ll and -ch sounds in Argentina. Incidentally, I remember a video that spoke about the Argentine accent, and they talked about how "che" is used, but they would say "che" and "she" interchangeably, which was really weird to listen to.
That form is more common in the Rio de la Plata region (covering most of Buenos Aires Province, Capital Federal and the center to south of Santa Fe Province), in which you have more than a 40% of the country's population. But the further you go from that region, the less common that form is
We actually use the voiced palatal approximant in most of Mexico. The English y sound is more common in New Mexican Spanish and Mexican Americans in general. In the state of Tabasco the pronunciation is just like in Argentina. That's the native pronunciation of the current president Andrés Manuel López Obrador. Sometimes he uses that pronunciation.
Thank you for your contribution. I appreciate the correction.
th-cam.com/video/bUemnlnHT6E/w-d-xo.html. I partially disagree, and would think you're educated, from central Mexico. Check out how he (from Sonora) pronounces y and ll, like yellow, and he is not Mexican American. He's also native, like me (Tijuana). In north west Mexico, very much y/ll is in normal speech like English yellow. th-cam.com/video/M2IQuXbExjU/w-d-xo.html -- here these guys are from Sinaloa.
(Btw, the sh for ch is not common among natives in TIjuana, Tecate or Ensenda, but it is in Mexicali.)
Sorry I didn't get around to viewing this earlier - was going through a bout of depression. I wasn't notified of the upload and didn't notice it was up for over a month. After watching it, I can see that this is very helpful and clears up my confusion of the poorly-explained sound. I have new insights into the world of and . Or should I say, el mundo de la y de la .
¡Muchas gracias!
I hope ur ok
Muchas gracias por el video,
yo buscaba mucho tiempo un video sobre este tema
y este es el mejor
Equatoguinean and Philippine Spanish still maintain the distinction.
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion!
It's a mix actually in Philippine Spanish, I guess it depends on where and when the word came or introduced: ceboyas and cabayos but calye and mantequilya
Also Bolivia and Peru
Great video, you should also talk about the pronunciation of the Spanish J. It can be pronounced /ꭓ/, /x/ or /h/ depending on the dialect. In Spain it is normally pronounced /ꭓ/, in countries like Mexico, Argentina and Peru the sound /x/ is the most used, whereas in Colombia, most of the Caribbean countries and South Spain the sound /h/ is used instead.
Thank you. This is an excellent suggestion for a video. I'll add it to my suggestion list.
Philippine Spanish maintains a distinction between and . Castilian Spanish had taught /ll/ to be pronounced as /ly/. In the same way that /ñ/ was taught to be /ny/. E.g. llave ~ lyabe; cavallo ~ cabalyo.
I’ve looked at so many videos and articles about this, but none of them fully or accurately explained the different pronunciations I thought I was hearing. I think I was gradually starting to get it by piecing together little bits of all the various different explanations, but this video says it all so wish I’d seen it earlier! Looks like some of your other videos address other things I’ve wondered about but no one else seems to explain, so will definitely check them out!
I'm so happy to hear that you found this useful.
The first “LL” that sounds like elie is used a lot in Andean zones, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the Quechua influence in us, since “LL” is a very standard and important sound for the language. (Examples of Quechua words: Llama, llaqta, killa, kallpa, allinllam, llanqay, chilliku)
Interesting observation, but the elye definitely derives from old Spanish. And it is pronounced by people who are not Quichua speakers, nor even influenced by Quichua speakers. So I think it must be a coincidence.
@@tenminutespanish oh yeah not saying it was originated from that, but at least in Quechua zones, having that other sound so commonly used in the second most talked language (and a lot of our grandparents/parents spoke Quechua before Spanish) probably helped in keeping it in use until now (it’s not an easy sound to pronounce if you’re not used to it, my friends at the coast tend to have trouble with it when they try)
@@Yamineftis Oh, I see what you're saying. I think that's a plausible theory.
Jallalla!
Great video! Thanks
As a Spaniard (central Spain, born in 1982), I have never noticed anyone (from here) pronouncing them differently. I don't have much experience with all the dialects, so that's only my personal experience. I've always learnt that the distinction exists, so maybe I've never met anyone who does it or maybe I haven't noticed.
Thank you for this insight.
In this case how do you pronounce them both? Just like the English Y sound or with the subtle L (Li) as presented in the video?
@@iasmina5359 Using the pronunciatons for "llamar" (from Spanish people) on Forvo as a reference: forvo.com/word/llamar/#es_es
I would say Sento's and bliks' pronunciations are the closest to mine, but ieliei's has some of that "li" sound. er9834l's sounds to me a bit in between.
@@rauljvila thanks for the example! I noticed two pronunciationso here... /ɟʝ/ and /j/
forvo seems good...
This is great. Thank you. I've been confused by this for a while.
Im glad you liked the video.
the original pronunciation of ll makes sense when you consider that ñ was originally nn
And even within dialects there's variation based on where it stands in the word
afaik, there is always more consonant quality when it follows a backed vowel (I and E) such as in the word Amarillo
This is something I've noticed in all dialects. so Y sounds become J sounds, and SH sounds become ZH
there are other ways that different vowels effect the LL-Y sounds
But I think the sound following back vowels is the most consistent and the one that would help the most people to sound more native
Excellent video! I had wondered what the difference would be between LL an Y in dialects which have a distinction between this two, and this was very informative. I realised that I’ve been intuitively using the voiced palatal approximant and it’s funny because my Mexican friend always corrects me when I say that sound. I’ve asked countless other Latin friends who have all insisted that it sounds fine - now I know why she has such an issue with it!
In the majority of Italian accents (as well as the standard) the 'gl' and 'gn' sounds are always geminated, so be careful of that (I believe in older, northern pronunciations, it isn't geminated.) In this instance, it would be better to transfer the sound from Portuguese, which is effectively 1:1. When I move over to Portuguese after I've been speaking Italian a lot, the "lh" that comes out is too long, and results in either weird looks or sometimes misunderstandings (and I assume the issue would be even greater in Spanish where the sound is even less recognizable.)
Rural places in northern Spain carry on with this pronunciation, and it can be heard in older songs, especially if you listen to people with ceceo, but it's so subtle that it is rarely noticed. This sound change is super common, in Rome one can here someone say something like "fijo" instead of "figlio" but this is dependent on the phonetic environment. Or in the past, if we look only at the "li" of Latin "filius" (and ignore the "f" that eventually becomes "h" and then silent): [filius] > [filʲo] > [fiʎo] (with the same sound we see represented traditionally with "ll," as in "cavalho" or "filho" in Portuguese) > [fiʝo] (most common pronunciation today) > [fiʒo] (traditional rioplatense pronunciation) > [fiʃo] (cosmopolitan rioplatense pronunciation) > [fiχo] (standard pronunciation of "j")
Excellent video.
In Pucallpa, Peru (la selva), the double l is pronounced like the English ‘j’ and the ‘y’ is pronounced like the English ‘y’.
Great video! Could you also make a video on neutral castillian spanish because you mostly talk about the latin american dialects and only mention the spanish ones.
That's an excellent suggestion. Unfortunately, I have limited personal experience with the small details of Spanish in Spain. (I have made one video on sibilants in Spain.) My personal experience is almost entirely with Spanish in Latin America. I have only visited Spain a couple of times. I fear that if I tried to flesh out the details of Spanish from Spain I would make too many errors. Let me think about it. I can probably research it and come up with something decent and then recruit some friends from Spain to help me with the sample words and phrases so they're accurate.
"Neutral" "Castilian" Spanish? -- in Latin America and most of Spain, we all speak some form of Castilian, and neutral, no such thing, really. But you probably mean Spanish from north-central Spain. I would just say that there is no need to cover, speak like you do already, they will understand. Just be authentic and no worries about sounding Latin American (badge of honor actually), unless you're doing some type of undercover work, then I won't ask.
Filipino language still use that "LL" from old Spanish and it sometimes spelled as LY
This was very helpful! Could you explain how to pronounce the y sound that’s closer to a j?
Albanian has the same sound written as "gj".
It's represented as /ɟ͡ʝ/ in the IPA and is pronounced by basically putting your tongue in position to say a Y but trying pronouncing a J with your tongue still in the position to say a Y.
Apoyo - ah poe joe. Yo - joe. Pollo - poe joe
While I have seen the lambda λ used in Spanish textbooks, the IPA symbol for the voiced palatal lateral is actually an upside down Y: ʎ. Of course it’s easy to mistake the two!
It interesting that in some dialects Y and LL are useful. But in most they aren't. It similar situation in Polish in most of our dialects CH and H( Ipa phonetic for them symbol X)are pronounced exactly the same and only some dialects. do people differentiate between them. fun video by the way my spanish pronunciation model for Y and LL is yeismo. I hope me using yeismo is ok.
Of course. Yeismo is what I call in this video "loss of distinction between ll and y". That's 90% of Spanish dialects on both sides of the Atlantic.
The sound change j > sh already occurred in Spanish many centuries ago! So this would be the second time that this sound change is observed in our language
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Almost all Spanish loanwords in the Philippines that have 'll' are pronounce as an /ʎ/ like tornilyo, martilyo, kastilyo etc. Except for kabayo(caballo).
How interesting! Thanks for the contribution.
I'm trying to learn Spanish, based in Mexico, and I still have a mix of y, j and sh sounds. I am Filipino and I am used to the elie sound, and, could be having a lisp affect my pronounciation as well?
Hey, i'm back to your video again because I wanted to ask if ll and y distinction can appear in non-distinction countries due to socio-economic background? Today I was watching a video of a mexican teenager who is more "well to do" and he pronounced "callate" with distinction, it was even more obvious because his friends did not pronounce it like that. There's not much information online so I'm counting on you!
Thank you!
Absolutely! Ll/y distinction is not just geographical but also socio-cultural. I'm not familiar with the particulars in Mexico, but in Ecuador it is associated with extreme "correctness" in pronunciation, or at least that's how it was 30 years ago.
I feel comfortable pronouncing "Ll " and "y" as the English "y" but someone said that it sounds gringo and that it is better to pronounce Ll and y as the English "j". So I was wondering if there’re native speakers who pronounce it as the English “y”
Not there aren't natives who pronounce Spanish ll like English y. Not quite. There are natives from northern Mexico who say that Spanish ll is the same as English y, but I don't think they know exactly how English y is pronounced. I have a whole video answering exactly your question. Here's the link: th-cam.com/video/1SRSySfkKM4/w-d-xo.html
If you do use the traditional of «ll», how is the preceding s pronounced? Does the preceding s influence how «ll» is pronounced?
I.E.- nos llamos, os llamáis.
I want to follow your advice of pronouncing the y/ll as the voiced paladar fricative, to be as neutral as possible... yet for the life of me I cannot figure out how td pronounce it! How do you suggest that one learns this?
On the other hand, I can pronounce [j] and [ʒ] without issue. I know that [ʒ] is not neutral on an international level, but for purposes of speaking "international" Spanish, would you recommend more [j] or [ʒ]?
Sorry, I meant voiced paladar approximant
@@matthewdimicelli4191 I honestly don't know what to call the sound I refer to here. It isn't the typical approximant [j] and it isn't the fricative. It's kinda in between...? It's pronounced by bringing the anterior dorsum of the tongue close to the anterior wall of the dome of the palate. I couldn't tell you how to do that in words.
In this video everything is so well explained. Thank youuuuu
I'm so happy you liked it. More to come! I'm working on my next video now!
The Philippines, up to this day, maintained the sound of the “ll” as it is when pronouncing Spanish words or loanwords that are derived from Spanish.
In the Philippines, we read ll in surnames as ly, like Padilya for Padilla.
Here in the Philippines, the ll is commonly pronounced as |λ| which is the old fashion way.
In some rural areas of northern Mexico people use more the Y sound (the vowel-like sound) some even take it to the extreme to pronounce the Y as an I in Spanish, in other words very similar to the Y in English, example: "Hermosiio" instead of Hermosillo. Some Andalusians in Spain do this as well.
It's the very, very, very opposite to what some Argentinians do with the "sh", strange coincidence hah? look at both countries in the map, they are in the opposites ends of Latin America.
Gracias por la explicación clara
Not many years ago I spent a couple weeks studying Spanish in Salamanca, Spain. There the instructors insisted that the Salamanca region features the purest Spanish pronunciation anywhere, and I was wise to being studying with them. They assured me that the correct pronunciation of "ll" is [ʎ]. My Spanish phonetics professor from Mexico, with a PhD in linguistics, tells me that had I studied in Valladolid I would have been told that THEY, and not the salmantinos, speak the purest Spanish. However, they would have agreed that the "ll" is properly pronounced as [ʎ].
Actually the pronunciation of those letters in mexican spanish is like the "j" in english or it's pronounced as in Spain and the one you did is the mexican american accent wich is wrong since is already mixed or maybe not wrong but it sounds more like an american speaking spanish, the rest of the country pronounces those letters correct but it also depends on de region.
I would say that it depends on the region. I speak "correctly" too and in normal speech I pronounce y and ll like y in yellow, and so do most people i've known in northern or northwestern mexico. Some mexican americans may produce a very almost vowel like sound, where villa and vía may sound almost the same. I don't consider the harder /dj/ sound more prestigious, just more emphatic when hearing another Mexican. Often I smell some type of hyper correction attempt to speak "properly." In the northwest, it's a little more common to hear in official speeches that are being overly-enunciated.
Hi , thank you very much for that video ! Can you or someone else tell me in dialects of what regions/countries the LL pronounced as Y (or with similar sound) in English ?
To the best of my knowledge, not many. I only know of some dialects near the US/Mexico border. I do not recommend pronouncing ll like English y. It is considered foreign-sounding by most native Spanish speakers.
Hi! Do you have a video on how to properly enunciate the "ci" sound like in "canción" and "ciudad?" Are there also differences in the way it is said between European Spanish and in the Americas?
I'm Filipino and I plan to start learning Spanish soon (leaning into Mexican Spanish) and hopefully learning more about it will help get rid of the lazy way I pronounce the Spanish loan words in Tagalog (Ciudad is spelled as Siyudad but said as Shudad).
We also have the same issue with the "Di" sound in Diez and Dios = Spelled as Diyes and Diyos but most of us say it as Jess and Joss.
I don't have videos on those subjects, because there is nothing special about them. What I mean, is there is no special rule governing "di" in Spanish. d is just pronounced [d]. In Mexican Spanish, the c before i and e is pronounced [s]. I do have a video on that that I'll link at the end of this post.
I do need to tell you, though, that ciudad is not "siyudad". There is no y sound in that word. It is "siudad". And there is no y sound in diez and Dios. They are NOT "diyes" and "diyos". They are "dies" and "dios". The concept for you to understand there is how to pronounce Spanish diphthongs. So, I'll link two videos that I think you should check out.
Pronunciation of c before e and i: th-cam.com/video/hbTi9382lbI/w-d-xo.html
Diphthongs: th-cam.com/video/THhSeT5YZQM/w-d-xo.html
Not many years ago I spent a couple weeks studying Spanish in Salamanca, Spain. There the instructors assured me that the Salamanca region features the purest Spanish pronunciation anywhere, and that the correct pronunciation of "ll" is [ʎ]. My university phonetics professor from Mexico, with a PhD in linguistics, tells me that had I spent some time studying in Valladolid I would have heard that THEY, not the salmantinos, speak the purest Spanish. But they would agree that "ll" should be pronounced [ʎ].
0:54 The voiced palatal lateral approximant is a rotated "y": [ʎ], not a lambda (λ).
Yes, you are correct. It is customary in some schools of Spanish studies to represent it with lambda, though, and that's how I learned it. My phonetic transcription is all screwed up, partly because within Spanish studies they don't strictly use IPA.
So does this means the diphthong i + vowel (like palacio) is pronounced different than ll/y + vowel (like pollo or yo)?
I know you watched my video on ll/y and j/ge/gi, because you left a long and thoughtful comment. Ok, so based on that video, how would you answer your own question here?
@@tenminutespanish That it is not because ll/y is a consonant while i+vowel is a vowel sound?
@@kingjimmycraftofcalderonia2017 Yes, that is exactly true. ll/y is a consonant sound. The weakest pronunciation of ll/y is still more consonant-like than any version of i. And you have to remember that a large majority of Spanish dialects pronounce ll/y like a soft j or zh. Nothing at all like an i or an English y.
@@tenminutespanish Thanks
So in Mexico, they have tuteo, vowel-like yeísmo, and seseo; Rioplatenese has voseo, consonant-like yeísmo, and seseo; and Madrileño Spanish has tuteo, neutral yeísmo, and distinción. So easy to understand.
Perfect!
In Mexico, we call LL like double L and Y we call it Y griega and I can say that the sound of the double L and Y is almost the same as Spain Castellano, In Argentina Double l sound like sh maybe for the Italian roots that they have very strong. Saludos desde Sonora Mexico, if you have a question about Spanish or Castellano ask me maybe I can help!
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion!
keep up the greak work! :)
Thank you!
In Medellín, ll/y sounds like English j.
En Colombia se pronuncian diferente.
I'm still having a lot of trouble hearing the difference between the "Mexican Y" and the voiced palatal approximant. I'm starting to feel like my headphones are broken, or I should get my hearing tested.
The difference is small . Most Spanish speakers have grown not hearing nor using that distinction , so we probably won' t even notice .
@@TheMaru666 Thank you, I'm glad I'm not insane.
Cuidado que en Paraguay el sonido de la y no es como en Argentina y Uruguay, sino más bien como en México. ¡Saludos!
Gracias por la corrección.
Is the voiced palatal approximant the same as the English y only air comes through in Spanish?
That's not how I would describe it.
@@tenminutespanish how do I put my tongue in the right postion?
@@laciruela7772 Please review what I say at 6:12 in the video. I can't explain it better than that.
My wife is Chilean and she does not pronounce the LL this way. It's hard to describe, but I can't imitate it. It's kind of like a weird in-between of the Buenos Aires pronunciation and standard LL sound. It's more similar to an English J than an L but it's not the same sound. Hard to describe and I wish I could imitate it better, but I can't.
I didn't understand how to do this ''soft j'' sound
Did this video help? Any questions?
@@tenminutespanish First of all thank you for the video,
I understand how to do the ''voiced palatal approximant'' but you said there is another sound that sounds like english ''j'' like in the word ''conllevar''
and I don't understand how to make this sound or what should I do in my mouth to produce this sound
@@orfrisbee2121 You're sooo welcome. It makes me very happy that you like the video. Yes, in words where /n/ or /l/ precede the palatal approximant, the palatal approximant is pronounced stronger, more like the English in words like "jump" and "jelly". [ʤ] I wish I could tell you exactly what to do to produce the sound. It is literally just a slightly softer English sound.
Filipinos still maintain the distinction between ll and y
I think most people that search this is because they often hear native speakers pronounce it with a j sound
I'm from Spain and don't remember hearing anyone pronouncing y and ll differently.
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion! I always appreciate the input of native speakers.
The only publication I could find on this topic was from 1974.
(Torreblanca, Máximo: «Estado actual del lleísmo y de la h aspirada en el noroeste de la provincia de Toledo», en Revista de dialectología y tradiciones populares, Tomo 30, Cuaderno 1-2, 1974, págs. 77-90.)
Apparently it is much less common in in Spain than in Latin America.
"En España puede haber lleísmo en cualquier parte..., aunque existen ciertas áreas pequeñas en que parece ser lleísmo dialectal... El término lleísmo no lo recogen diccionarios como el DRAE y el CLAVE, quizá porque en gran parte no es fenómeno peninsular. Pero, dada la amplitud y frecuencia con que aparece este fenómeno en Hispanoamérica, quizá debería incluirlo." www.wikilengua.org/index.php/Lle%C3%ADsmo#endnote_lle
How do you pronounce them both? Just like the English Y sound or with the subtle L (Li) as presented in the video?
@@iasmina5359 Just like at 06:11 on this video
@@iasmina5359 It can vary from one to another word or speaker , but it is close to the j in just or jacket .
2:03 listen to donald trump say million
Why??? 'sh', 'j', and 'y' is more difficult...jaja, I speak Philippine-Spanish, we say 'elyeh'
5:42 This is how I pronounce these words. That's why I hate it when other Spanish speakers pronounce foreign words with sh as ch. Like saying "chow" instead of "show". It hurts my ears so much.
One thing I noticed. We normally distinguish very clearly words like yerba and hierba. There's a yerba in Argentina called "hierbital". However I've heard people pronounce it as "yerbital" (more accurately "sherbital"). I'd never say it like that. It'd be as bad as pronouncing the word "hielo" as "shelo".
I'll alwsys pronunce ll as y in Spanidh
You know, I'll write this OFTEN but, Language coming out of one's own mouth is a VERY personal thing. As I've said many times, saying something wrong, «as if you were an idiot» just to be arrogant or difficult is low class. HOWEVER, let's say you're enchanted with, enamored with, enthralled by the sound of «ly» and you WANT to say it, I don't know, perhaps in your mind to preserve the Spanish language, to feel the blood of Cervantes pulsing between your ears, into your heart, because you love Spain and Spaniards so much that you can't hold back from this expression. Well, then screw everyone else and you do you! I still don´t get the whole Argentinian shhhrrllllaayyyaa thing or whatever.
What’s so hard to get? “Pablo Xavier” it should be easy for you since you’re Hispanic. I’m Colombian and it’s normal.
It’s hard for a gringo 😂 “pablo xavier” trump supporting “Hispanic” 😂
Thanks for the video but is y and or ll more of a vowel or a consonant
Sorry if this video already explains that
ll/y is a consonant in that it cannot be the nucleus of a syllable.
@@tenminutespanish thanks