Hopes for Pantheon's Early Access: th-cam.com/video/X_lfROIlcLM/w-d-xo.html Pantheon Official EA video: th-cam.com/video/lw2s30ogWi8/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Pantheon%3ARiseoftheFallen
For players that don't mind out of date graphics, Ultima Online and Runescape are both really good games and I think they are free. Anyone that wants more modern graphics is not going to play this game. I just don't see where Pantheon gets a player base big enough to sustain an MMO.
Hi I am Eric creator of the PENANCE ip. There are tons of things that go into a great end product and graphics right now isnt as hype as people want to let on. I made this choice as well and here is how it was made. Hardware available+market activity on hardware+the projection of pressures on the wallets of my audience+projected idea of where hardware will be at release day. People go with the cartoon look so it will live the longest allowing the largest audience pc gamers to play and pay. Example if I released now my biggest groups are 2070, 2080, 6000series amd and a big chunk of 3060s. Sprinkle also the hold out die hard 1080ti squad. If game play is based on fun and your game loop is sensory stimulating excitement the looks simply do not matter.
@@Forevergames-vn6gd I agree, Graphics are not everything in a good game. All i'm saying is, people that want good graphics in their game won't bother trying this one. And people like us that don't mind outdated graphics if its a good game, already have some fun, well established games, with loyal communities to choose from. I'm not sure that a game like this can draw enough players to sustain its-self for very long in this day and age.
@@krakhungames True but if it cant find a dan base what says my game will. Interesting as a actual CEO of a studio the one thing nobody asks me about is my actual IP lol. Let hope for the best and continue to expand our over all group.
Good take. The game IS fun and captures what it was going for. The PR side of VR has always been a little weak, though. Let's hope that doesn't cause too much of an issue. My biggest fear that they are too early in dev for an EA launch. I'm afraid there won't be enough in game to make it feel fleshed out enough to consider it early access and not just in development.
Yep agree. In the end, I SINCERELY HOPE that this early access initiative brings them some much needed funding and a new resolve to get this thing to 1.0 and live. But there have been missteps, and I hope early access can be successful enough to make those missteps not matter.
That’s crazy…. Plus the art style change and no corpse runs this game has changed alot. I can’t imagine investing that much money into it and not be furious.
@@Redbeardflynn wohoo Corpse runs, that's really 1999 and perhaps for 10% of the population still on different private servers of EQ. That is perhaps the audience that might be the most interested in playing Pantheon as of now, but many of them enjoy EQ still, it's a hard sell to get younger audience to these type of games. Corpse runs are the least of Pantheon's problems, they seem to be in Alpha still and they have 3 months to get to an open beta stage (Early access erm), I don't know if that's wishful thinking with the dev team they have now? I am guessing that EQ3 is coming out of the ideation phase in the first quarter of 2025, if so that might take even more attention away from Pantheon. I am hoping that Pantheon will be successful and take players away from EQ, this would probably put more pressure on putting the throttle down on that project. If it's a good game for enough players let's say somewhere in 2025, so that they can actually take subscription fees without players running away, I think that might be what I would call successful for Pantheon. I usually don't pay for a game until they are done, although it seems that many games that say they are, is in the pile of dead games as well.
The key component is still the game being good. Then it requires the developer to continue developing around foundational principles that do NOT change. Niche gaming died because of catering more and more to the largest audience and cross product/platforming, aka watering down.
In my opinion, making an MMO is constant crunch forever, because there never is an end to making the game and the players are always ravenous for content. Good news though is that for some devs, it's worth it.
My concern is the promises they make today are the promises they break tomorrow. VR has changed the pledge system, the graphics system, the play system from Pre-Alpha to 24/7 to Seasons to EA (all of that was done in just one year), the development software has been changed 3 times? Ogres in June, no July no September, okay probably December (and that's just one of the several promised races for EA). And now we're gonna double the playable zones in 6 months... lets remind everyone it's taken them nearly 10 years to get where we are right now and we're gonna double that in 6 months. My concern is they make promises and they break them and the game I want to love suffers cause more and more people choose not to buy into the hope that this game will be released... some day... maybe.
Good take as always. I am one of those that have been teetering on whether to buy one of the packs or wait for EA, and at this point, the wait seems more logical. Simply because FFXIV and GW2 fill my mmo fix, and Dragon Age + D4 Expac are on the horizon. So waiting til Dec to play Pantheon seems like the smarter move at this point. I will say it is a pity that the EA thing is so messed up now because it's gone from being, like it was for FFXIV that I got in 4 days before official launch, to being a glorified Beta test you pay for usually. the thing that the term is now used for both scenario's, will leave the under educated in this matter confused, and as you said leads to negative reviews. I believe at some point it will be understood by the masses, but at the same time, since I work in cust serv, I ain't holdin my breath. The game is starting to look really good, and I am eager to try it, just at this point, doesn't seem worth it for me to drop money on it yet.
Forget early access, this game is still in proof of concept phase. My only hope is that when this game fails and the studio finally dies off that they give all the game files to the public so anyone can work on it. Either way ima give it a try, even after crapping on it for years, I used to be a hyped fan a decade ago
I mean BG3 was barely proof of concept when it launched into early access with half of an act 1 in 2020, no? That's kind of the point, yeah? Its active development.
Steam just wants everything short of a full game release lumped into the entirely-too-broad "Early Access" category. It's extremely frustrating as a consumer who actually enjoys game testing as long as I know that's what I'm meant to be doing. But if you're putting a pricetag on your product, my immediate perspective becomes "am I getting my money's worth?", which does not lend itself well to being a solid -- or unbiased -- tester. So yes, Pantheon needs to be extremely clear about what they're offering when they release on Steam and how soon new content will be coming in because six playable zones barely scratches the surface of what an MMO should be offering to people paying to play the game.
Tired to be excited for this game but since I'm still bitter over Everquest Landmark I rarely even care about new MMORPGs until they have been out for the 3 months
I just feel VR bit off more than they could chew. EQ, WoW and even EQ2 were not built in a day, and I feel they wanted to match the content plus new innovations from day one. Original EQ had very little armor with stats and not a lot of "features", well besides kicking snakes. These games fail because they promise the world and more and they cannot deliver, or they go into development hell. This is the second company of Brad's (RIP, great game maker). that ran into what seems to be the same issues. Just like Vanguard (still some of the best classes I ever played.) this game is running into to long of development cycles. They had a vision, and an art style, they went back on them both. I understand why, but they chose an art style that is overdone and overused in practically all new games, all because its cheap and easy. I want this game to succeed, and I have no doubt there will be hardcore fans. but a few hardcore fans will not keep it a float without concessions. Those concessions will be in the form of a cash shop, which does not have to be bad, but VR really makes bad decisions, they always have. I feel like the game has lost the hype, the vision, and the style. I also feel that while you are correct that their EA should not be an invitation to the masses, that is precisely what they want to inject cash into the system. EA became what it is because companies want the cash. Yes to some extent it helps them in testing, and yes some companies use it more honestly than others, but at the end of the day it allows them to make cash. If it was not about cash, they would say here is the game, free for 6 months then you have to buy it. The game might get an official release, but it is already dated graphically and technically, so I do not see the staying power.
Only watched the first four minutes and 30 seconds. Nothing against you Red. I'm just don't care about Pantheon any more. When I cared. I have positive feedback at first. While I steal care and I seen questionable decisions and I feared about the success of the game. I gave criticism letting my concerns be know. YES even criticism is a good thing. Because it shows people do care. Otherwise they say nothing. Now. I don't care about Pantheon. I'm done. No more following it. No more positive comments, no more criticism. I'm just done.
How many years in development is this ? Looks like its 5+ years by the comments. Graphics look bad, it looks worse than mmos from 20 years ago, that was fine back then but now ? I dont think so, I aint paying 70 bucks for something that wants to cash in on nostalgia... Whats the target audience, people that played mmos 20 years ago ? Thats a handful of people, and they already play their favorite old looking game, WoW, Everquest, Lotro etc. What will this game have to bring in these players in ? Its an MMO so if its empty after a while then its dead, if the gameplay loop is not extremely fun while looking like trash, its dead, I dont have any real hopes for this, it will be played by a niche group of people that love to socialize, group up, maybe even roleplay but thats not going to be enough, especially after this many years of development. Most likely hard pass on this one.
@@Redbeardflynn nice, an indie game for a price of a AAA game, thats cool. I guess since its indie then its allowed to be totally a trash, overpriced cashgrab.
@Ludydobry yes that's a pledge to help support the indie game that has no traditional publisher. This video is about early access in December which we have no price for. Pledging is supporting and indie project. You definitely don't have to, but the whole idea of it is non indie mmos aren't making this type of game so it's crowdfunded. If it's not for you it's not for you. There are other mmos out there to play that are not indie nor crowdfunded.
game like that are boring thats the problem!Everyone on the sam position and hit 1 mob/boss whatever.Playerbase will be very low and game like that cant survive in modern mmo world!
@@Vujkan People are still playing FFXI and Everquest retail and private servers. Same playstyle. It'll be niche, yes, but it can survive as long as developers understand the game will be niche. They need to keep the budget low and understand their playerbase. A lot of people play a new TLP Everquest server each year and that is the target audience.
@@miro5052 i play for years everquest,but brother let be honest its hard to survive in this modern world!This is why i said many times Ashes of Creation last hope of mmorpg genre!they back everquest elements,pure PvX and group content,lvl up system in group and alot of features!
I have a few fears with it. They seemingly wasted years of development time when they actually had both interest and income. I can't help but think that their income has decreased exponentially from 5-7 years ago. How much longer can they continue to develop it? The game doesn't resemble the early vision for the game during it's Kickstarter drive in a number of ways. While this is a fear for me, dumbing it down does make it more likely to launch, and to have a wider appeal than the original vision. If it does launch, I feel as though a great deal of it's audience will have already completed all of it's content ten times over. Will it be able to hold interest if and when it does launch?
I think the thing a ton of people miss is just how expensive an MMO is to make and it's only gotten *more* expensive. Pantheon never had the money needed to make an MMO but they've persevered and had to make hard and difficult decisions to do so. Thats why I say its held up by a hell of a lot of passion. Because making an MMO with 300 million is hard, making an MMO with what, maybe 10-15 mil or less? That sounds impossible, but they've been doing it. As for the comment about players replaying the same content: I think most players currently testing have played the 1-10 content a ton for sure, but not much beyond that. Will that mean the core, by launch, has pretty much played, been there and done that for 1-50 (I mean itll already be 1-40 in EA) possibly, but I've played enough progression servers to know people don't mind re-doing things ;)
@@Redbeardflynn Yeah, if its good, ill replay it with new classes, knowing their is new content at the end. Ill probably play it really hard to the end initially, then come back only after major updates, or multiple major updates. I have played Everquest and Vanilla WoW on and off for like.... 20 years. If a games fun (which Pantheon has been fun for me), people come back. If its dead and I can't find anyone after the initial rush then that would be a big issue.
I want to have hope for it, but honestly the outlook doesn't seem good. They don't have enough money for the time they're investing and with Brad gone (although he was no saint) it feels like there's a lack of direction. Maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised if they manage to pull it off.
Pretty much gave up on Pantheon. Did a weekend stress test for monsters and memories and felt like I was in an MMO, captured my attention completely. On the other hand Pantheon feels like a coop RPG.
The game's original vision died with Brad McQuaid. They've changed the art style and design philosophy of the game. But most important of all, they took 10 years to do nothing but start over again and again. Lastly, they took a bunch of money from people and are still asking for more after a decade lol...I'd rather support Niche World Cult , that game hasn't accepted a single dollar and it's true to the original design Pantheon was going for. I've play tested it and it's got something for us old school EQ'ers and not just lipservice. Proven through action.
I never followed Pantheon, just happened to stumble on this video randomly... but the combat looks really boring. I hope it feel better than it look tbh.
If you have never played EQ, then you probably don’t “get it” but this is not an action MMO. This slower combat is trying to be more strategic (as opposed to button mashing). Some of that strategy goes into what you even prepare for skills and spells before combat, how they interact with your skills and the group’s skills, and how you are dealing with/locking downs adds. You are probably pressing a skill every 2 or 3 seconds on average. Some people prefer this “boring” combat over pressing 3 keys in rapid succession and spattering everything around you. I guess you could also find that “boring”.
Lots of good advice in this video and the corresponding one. I hope they take some of it. It's a great game so far, but a lot of people won't be prepared for an early access this early.
I'm in favor of wipes at the end of Early Access honestly. I get that its a bit different for MMOs but it preserved the full experience for BG3 when they wiped at release.
Basically my worries, that EA opens a floodgate that they are only to push back so much so much due to team, resources and time. Embers Adrift is in a similar situation a couple of years after it's release where they need new areas, new content, new armor and weapon models and more but they can only put out so much because their team is so small. And lack of content, however much you think you might have, will not keep the players for as long as you think. I hope there's some stuff behind the scenes that makes them more confident than I am in EA, but I have my concerns.
I think you'll agree with my hopes too then in the other video. Basically hoping it goes under the radar like a bg3. More players and more ability to play together but not a new world type flood
@@Redbeardflynn pretty sure they were scheduled for the beginning of sept, like the 6th, and were pushed back. also waiting on ogres and halflings to return as promised. maybe we'll get dark myr on 28th too. not holding my breath any longer.
@@TheKrinkled1 Ah no, they listed it the 9th yeah but that was on the prod tracker incorrectly because it didnt account for the longer season prior to it and used the wrong dates. If you want to hold them for that mistake sure, but it wasnt like they promised and delayed. Ogres and dwarves *are* delayed, dark myr, halflings, elves planned for the 28th.
I want to believe. I feel it in the water. No, wait. Let’s start over. Ok, I need the poster from X-Files, some Kool-Aid, cheesecake flavored, and guarantee so outlandish that I can safely say "This is a joke, right?" The problem is that when you are wanting a "new thing", regardless of the thing, you are either a pessimist or an optimist. There's really no in-between. I want a good game. I’m hoping for a great game, but I’m expecting something much more, um, Plain Jane. Don’t get me wrong, I like Jane. She is a great girl and I respect her a great deal. I mean, I couldn’t do what she does. But when you really want Laura Croft, she just can’t cut it.
I understand this 100% and I hear it in the voice. As CEO and creator of such a title I know what this means. Ever choice I make is a risk reward choice. Now I could continue and tell you why they are in this spot and think the risk is worth the squeeze. As you stated this could be as much the great beginning as it could be the ugly ending. I personally am seeking full funding and the original phase work tried and true. 3 - 5 alphas of various sizr and target, a closed beta and then a open beta into a solid wipe and launch everyone starting equal. Zero pay to win!
@@adamlannerd1408 I don't know.... Player run servers of legacy Everquest still get mid-high 00's and sometimes 1000+ at peak hours. Especially when 'expansions' are released.
@@adamlannerd1408 Just because the silent majority don't leave comments on videos like this, doesn't mean they don't exist. 🤣 There are a lot of people who used to play old-school MMORPG's that got left behind because the industry decided to cater to the solo player. More profit doesn't necessarily mean more satisfying gameplay. It's like when J. Allen Brack said, "You think you do, but you don't" when referencing the idea that ended up being WoW Classic. We know how that turned out.
As much as I want Pantheon and Monsters & Memories to succeed, I'm not hopeful. The reason theme park MMOs succeed is because they respect player's time. I can log into FF14 for 30 minutes and progress the main quest or do a couple duties, even if the game doesn't respect player skill, but in group focused old school games I have to spend that entire time searching LFG. If I don't play for several hours at a time, progression is non-existent. At least M&M's saving grace is that it seems to respect player skill, even if it doesn't respect their time. Pantheon respects neither.
Both games will really need to figure out a nut thats been hard to crack: How long is long enough to feel rewarding but not punishing. And then couple that with: How much is social enough without feeling forced? In a weird way when you look back at EQ, it did pretty well with that, Vanguard, too. You *could* progress solo, you *could* progress at a decent pace, but there was always incentive to do things with friends because it was just better. The good thing with both games imo is they're both going into Early Access and will hopefully take player feedback, both spoken feedback and behavior feedback, looking at data...etc.
I stopped following this game a while ago - are clerics the only ones that can res? Is there xp loss on death? Class specific and player run fast travel only through player cast spells except maybe a gate/home call? When it seemed like they were going away from the core of what made EQ 1, EQ 1, I gave up. Still have my VP access though from way back, so maybe if it comes back to the promised roots I could get my faith back.
From what I read from pantheon mmo page classes, Clerics, Paladins and Shamans can ressurect ( Shaman rezz leaving a rezz sickness ) And then theres druids that cannot rezz but instead before someone dies put some kind of protective bubble on them that will let them emerge when battle is over. Go to pantheon mmo and take a look, they listed some key class abilities under each class.
Oh its not about it being unfinished. It's about pretending it *is* finished when it wasn't. There was no reason why Palia couldn't have just used the Early Access tag. It created unnecessary blowback for little to no gain.
Good video Redbeardflynn. I can't wait for part two. I wish that I could share your optimism that the label of "Early Access" will not result in review bombs and destruction of this title. I still really want this game to come out and be successful. So many indie studios get this part so so wrong that I am not sure if we're about to witness another train wreck or the most magical train to roll up to the station. Looking at VR's other miss steps in the past doesn't give me much confidence that it wont be a train wreck. I can't agree with you more that they needed to think through and communicate the monetization plan BEFORE announcing early access. However, since that ship has already sailed maybe they could also offer a pack that includes some physical merch like T-shirts, coffee mugs, or a cloth map of the game world like old school games of yore. They have the cloth map as an option in one of the much higher pledge tiers but I am on hard times and cannot make that kind of leap no matter how badly I would like to make it.
Part 2 launches at the same time ;) was testing something. I'll generally always err on the side of optimism when I can because there's just so much negativity in general. As for physical merch: speaking from experience with my own merch it has really really low margins. But if they can find a print on demand store they like I don't see why not. I mostly just wear my own merch though 😅
@@Redbeardflynn YT didn't want to show me the 2nd part yet so I'll go find it. You got coffee mugs? That's all I really do, but they got to be big coffee mugs. I require a large infusion of coffee in the mornings so tiny mugs don't get no love from me.
Good video Red - My expectations is simple ..That they go on every 6th week with updates (no matter how big/small they are) just as it has been under 2024. And also i see a bright future for Pantheon, yeah i know i'm optimistic, but when i logg in these days i freakin love it, it feels great. And in my humble opinion, it can only get better from here on.
I loved Everquest. I loved Vanguard. I was a big fan of Brad and his game theory, non instance, travel time, community. I've watched Pantheon development you years and years. But I found Mortal Online 2 and have not looked back. MO2 does everything better. My recommendation is to give it and try and see what I mean. Pantheon, ashes of creation, and other epic mmos these days at dead imo.
@Redbeardflynn Man, I've been hooked. It has everything, share experiences, player driven intrigue, a real high fantasy world full of elves, dwarves, humans, and orcs, 4 magic schools, no GPS, true exploration and discovery, pets, non istanced housing, real sword fighting, chases on horse back, land navigation, strategy, team work, kingdoms, one huge uninstanced world that everyone is on, massive wars, role play, emersion. It's Skyrim online. There are so many hours of content, so much lost sleep.
that would only degrade quality. You can't do mentally taxing levels of focus, like programming requires, for more than around 4 hours per day before it degrades noticeably, by 8 hours it's pretty much gone quality wise. Over time pay isn't going to fix that.
@@zarroth Giving overtime pay isn't to make programmers work more hours but less. Currently Employers can demand salary exempt jobs to work overtime without pay or compensation or time off. This is why crunch exists. It's cheaper to burn out programmers work them 60-80 hours than to hire a 2nd one to fill the extra demand.
I am not too concerned about their dev team burning out. They just got back from an 8 year paid vacation. I can't even take this game seriously as an MMO when they don't even have a character generator. Every human male looks exactly the same. Not even a mobile game would release previews with that level of lack of variety. They are releasing something playable in hopes their backers won't sue them. Which is probably going to happen anyway since the game delivered has no similarity to the game promised.
Making an mmo isnt the same as making 1990's Tetris or Super mario. Theres alot of coding and details. They even said the game had problems in the beginning with spaghetti code and they hired a guy to re do the coding. You dont want a game built on spaghetti coding as that will cause more and more problems in the future for devs and players.
@@kjetilandreeide7464 The technical problems they had with their code is not where the 8 years and millions of dollars were spent. They were iterating on new concepts literally for years. Ideas they spent months to develop which never even made it to the final game. They had zero direction from the start, or perhaps the direction passed away with Brad.
This comment could be taken at least a couple different ways. A) The game is fun, but more challenging or punishing than most typical MMOs in recent years, or B) The game is not fun and not worth your time. Which is it?
Id rather have a mmo with not so great gfx as long as artstyle is cool rather then a mmo that requires top end GPU's to run... Everquest 2 made that mistake and made the game too gfx heavy for its time and alot of players including myself couldnt run it. It was also released at the same time as Wow and I could run Wow with my current pc. I think EQ2 lost alot of players to Blizzard because of this.
Hopes for Pantheon's Early Access: th-cam.com/video/X_lfROIlcLM/w-d-xo.html
Pantheon Official EA video: th-cam.com/video/lw2s30ogWi8/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Pantheon%3ARiseoftheFallen
For players that don't mind out of date graphics, Ultima Online and Runescape are both really good games and I think they are free. Anyone that wants more modern graphics is not going to play this game. I just don't see where Pantheon gets a player base big enough to sustain an MMO.
Hi I am Eric creator of the PENANCE ip. There are tons of things that go into a great end product and graphics right now isnt as hype as people want to let on. I made this choice as well and here is how it was made. Hardware available+market activity on hardware+the projection of pressures on the wallets of my audience+projected idea of where hardware will be at release day. People go with the cartoon look so it will live the longest allowing the largest audience pc gamers to play and pay. Example if I released now my biggest groups are 2070, 2080, 6000series amd and a big chunk of 3060s. Sprinkle also the hold out die hard 1080ti squad. If game play is based on fun and your game loop is sensory stimulating excitement the looks simply do not matter.
@@Forevergames-vn6gd I agree, Graphics are not everything in a good game. All i'm saying is, people that want good graphics in their game won't bother trying this one. And people like us that don't mind outdated graphics if its a good game, already have some fun, well established games, with loyal communities to choose from. I'm not sure that a game like this can draw enough players to sustain its-self for very long in this day and age.
@@krakhungames True but if it cant find a dan base what says my game will. Interesting as a actual CEO of a studio the one thing nobody asks me about is my actual IP lol. Let hope for the best and continue to expand our over all group.
I want this to work out, but lets be honest. This isn't gonna matter
Good take. The game IS fun and captures what it was going for. The PR side of VR has always been a little weak, though. Let's hope that doesn't cause too much of an issue.
My biggest fear that they are too early in dev for an EA launch. I'm afraid there won't be enough in game to make it feel fleshed out enough to consider it early access and not just in development.
Yep agree. In the end, I SINCERELY HOPE that this early access initiative brings them some much needed funding and a new resolve to get this thing to 1.0 and live. But there have been missteps, and I hope early access can be successful enough to make those missteps not matter.
I paid a very high premium price for this game ten years ago; it was over $1,000. For it to still be in early access is, honestly, disgusting.
That’s crazy…. Plus the art style change and no corpse runs this game has changed alot. I can’t imagine investing that much money into it and not be furious.
The game has corpse runs in right now...
@@Redbeardflynn wohoo Corpse runs, that's really 1999 and perhaps for 10% of the population still on different private servers of EQ.
That is perhaps the audience that might be the most interested in playing Pantheon as of now, but many of them enjoy EQ still, it's a hard sell to get younger audience to these type of games.
Corpse runs are the least of Pantheon's problems, they seem to be in Alpha still and they have 3 months to get to an open beta stage (Early access erm), I don't know if that's wishful thinking with the dev team they have now?
I am guessing that EQ3 is coming out of the ideation phase in the first quarter of 2025, if so that might take even more attention away from Pantheon.
I am hoping that Pantheon will be successful and take players away from EQ, this would probably put more pressure on putting the throttle down on that project.
If it's a good game for enough players let's say somewhere in 2025, so that they can actually take subscription fees without players running away, I think that might be what I would call successful for Pantheon.
I usually don't pay for a game until they are done, although it seems that many games that say they are, is in the pile of dead games as well.
The change in art style is disgusting
I got burned in a similar way by EQNext. Ever since, I think of the maxim: “To buy unseen land, pay in unseen coin.”
Hope it finds its niche community
I hope this for every mmo tbh. I want people to find games and have fun
The key component is still the game being good. Then it requires the developer to continue developing around foundational principles that do NOT change. Niche gaming died because of catering more and more to the largest audience and cross product/platforming, aka watering down.
In my opinion, making an MMO is constant crunch forever, because there never is an end to making the game and the players are always ravenous for content. Good news though is that for some devs, it's worth it.
My concern is the promises they make today are the promises they break tomorrow. VR has changed the pledge system, the graphics system, the play system from Pre-Alpha to 24/7 to Seasons to EA (all of that was done in just one year), the development software has been changed 3 times? Ogres in June, no July no September, okay probably December (and that's just one of the several promised races for EA). And now we're gonna double the playable zones in 6 months... lets remind everyone it's taken them nearly 10 years to get where we are right now and we're gonna double that in 6 months. My concern is they make promises and they break them and the game I want to love suffers cause more and more people choose not to buy into the hope that this game will be released... some day... maybe.
I just dropped to say I also love Breaking Benjamin, just saw them live last Friday
Awesome! I'm seeing them in October!
How many years has it been in development?
over 9000.
Good take as always. I am one of those that have been teetering on whether to buy one of the packs or wait for EA, and at this point, the wait seems more logical. Simply because FFXIV and GW2 fill my mmo fix, and Dragon Age + D4 Expac are on the horizon. So waiting til Dec to play Pantheon seems like the smarter move at this point.
I will say it is a pity that the EA thing is so messed up now because it's gone from being, like it was for FFXIV that I got in 4 days before official launch, to being a glorified Beta test you pay for usually. the thing that the term is now used for both scenario's, will leave the under educated in this matter confused, and as you said leads to negative reviews. I believe at some point it will be understood by the masses, but at the same time, since I work in cust serv, I ain't holdin my breath. The game is starting to look really good, and I am eager to try it, just at this point, doesn't seem worth it for me to drop money on it yet.
it's an mmo.... they will need to continue working forever on it regardless of it being called early access or launch....
True, but there are peaks and valleys, my concern was about the peak going straight into another peak with no valley, if that makes sense.
Forget early access, this game is still in proof of concept phase. My only hope is that when this game fails and the studio finally dies off that they give all the game files to the public so anyone can work on it. Either way ima give it a try, even after crapping on it for years, I used to be a hyped fan a decade ago
I mean BG3 was barely proof of concept when it launched into early access with half of an act 1 in 2020, no? That's kind of the point, yeah? Its active development.
@@Redbeardflynn BG3 did not launch in a proof of concept phase. They already had the license. They werent worried about not finishing the product.
Steam just wants everything short of a full game release lumped into the entirely-too-broad "Early Access" category. It's extremely frustrating as a consumer who actually enjoys game testing as long as I know that's what I'm meant to be doing. But if you're putting a pricetag on your product, my immediate perspective becomes "am I getting my money's worth?", which does not lend itself well to being a solid -- or unbiased -- tester. So yes, Pantheon needs to be extremely clear about what they're offering when they release on Steam and how soon new content will be coming in because six playable zones barely scratches the surface of what an MMO should be offering to people paying to play the game.
Tired to be excited for this game but since I'm still bitter over Everquest Landmark I rarely even care about new MMORPGs until they have been out for the 3 months
Not sure Everquest combined with Minecraft woulda been that great, not to mention the artstyle were even more cartoonish then wow..
I just feel VR bit off more than they could chew. EQ, WoW and even EQ2 were not built in a day, and I feel they wanted to match the content plus new innovations from day one. Original EQ had very little armor with stats and not a lot of "features", well besides kicking snakes. These games fail because they promise the world and more and they cannot deliver, or they go into development hell. This is the second company of Brad's (RIP, great game maker). that ran into what seems to be the same issues. Just like Vanguard (still some of the best classes I ever played.) this game is running into to long of development cycles. They had a vision, and an art style, they went back on them both. I understand why, but they chose an art style that is overdone and overused in practically all new games, all because its cheap and easy. I want this game to succeed, and I have no doubt there will be hardcore fans. but a few hardcore fans will not keep it a float without concessions. Those concessions will be in the form of a cash shop, which does not have to be bad, but VR really makes bad decisions, they always have. I feel like the game has lost the hype, the vision, and the style. I also feel that while you are correct that their EA should not be an invitation to the masses, that is precisely what they want to inject cash into the system. EA became what it is because companies want the cash. Yes to some extent it helps them in testing, and yes some companies use it more honestly than others, but at the end of the day it allows them to make cash. If it was not about cash, they would say here is the game, free for 6 months then you have to buy it. The game might get an official release, but it is already dated graphically and technically, so I do not see the staying power.
Only watched the first four minutes and 30 seconds. Nothing against you Red. I'm just don't care about Pantheon any more. When I cared. I have positive feedback at first. While I steal care and I seen questionable decisions and I feared about the success of the game. I gave criticism letting my concerns be know. YES even criticism is a good thing. Because it shows people do care. Otherwise they say nothing. Now. I don't care about Pantheon. I'm done. No more following it. No more positive comments, no more criticism. I'm just done.
Totally fair, any particular reason? And yes criticism is definitely a good thing, as long as its actionable.
How many years in development is this ? Looks like its 5+ years by the comments. Graphics look bad, it looks worse than mmos from 20 years ago, that was fine back then but now ? I dont think so, I aint paying 70 bucks for something that wants to cash in on nostalgia... Whats the target audience, people that played mmos 20 years ago ? Thats a handful of people, and they already play their favorite old looking game, WoW, Everquest, Lotro etc. What will this game have to bring in these players in ? Its an MMO so if its empty after a while then its dead, if the gameplay loop is not extremely fun while looking like trash, its dead, I dont have any real hopes for this, it will be played by a niche group of people that love to socialize, group up, maybe even roleplay but thats not going to be enough, especially after this many years of development. Most likely hard pass on this one.
It's an indie mmo
@@Redbeardflynn nice, an indie game for a price of a AAA game, thats cool. I guess since its indie then its allowed to be totally a trash, overpriced cashgrab.
@@Ludydobry what? It doesn't even have a price yet for Early Access?
@@Redbeardflynn cheapest pledge is 50 euros on kickstarter
@Ludydobry yes that's a pledge to help support the indie game that has no traditional publisher. This video is about early access in December which we have no price for. Pledging is supporting and indie project. You definitely don't have to, but the whole idea of it is non indie mmos aren't making this type of game so it's crowdfunded. If it's not for you it's not for you. There are other mmos out there to play that are not indie nor crowdfunded.
My concern comes from being too bored to make it out of the starting zone during the last beta.
game like that are boring thats the problem!Everyone on the sam position and hit 1 mob/boss whatever.Playerbase will be very low and game like that cant survive in modern mmo world!
@@Vujkan People are still playing FFXI and Everquest retail and private servers. Same playstyle. It'll be niche, yes, but it can survive as long as developers understand the game will be niche. They need to keep the budget low and understand their playerbase. A lot of people play a new TLP Everquest server each year and that is the target audience.
@@miro5052 i play for years everquest,but brother let be honest its hard to survive in this modern world!This is why i said many times Ashes of Creation last hope of mmorpg genre!they back everquest elements,pure PvX and group content,lvl up system in group and alot of features!
I have a few fears with it.
They seemingly wasted years of development time when they actually had both interest and income. I can't help but think that their income has decreased exponentially from 5-7 years ago. How much longer can they continue to develop it?
The game doesn't resemble the early vision for the game during it's Kickstarter drive in a number of ways. While this is a fear for me, dumbing it down does make it more likely to launch, and to have a wider appeal than the original vision.
If it does launch, I feel as though a great deal of it's audience will have already completed all of it's content ten times over. Will it be able to hold interest if and when it does launch?
I think the thing a ton of people miss is just how expensive an MMO is to make and it's only gotten *more* expensive. Pantheon never had the money needed to make an MMO but they've persevered and had to make hard and difficult decisions to do so. Thats why I say its held up by a hell of a lot of passion. Because making an MMO with 300 million is hard, making an MMO with what, maybe 10-15 mil or less? That sounds impossible, but they've been doing it.
As for the comment about players replaying the same content: I think most players currently testing have played the 1-10 content a ton for sure, but not much beyond that. Will that mean the core, by launch, has pretty much played, been there and done that for 1-50 (I mean itll already be 1-40 in EA) possibly, but I've played enough progression servers to know people don't mind re-doing things ;)
@@Redbeardflynn Yeah, if its good, ill replay it with new classes, knowing their is new content at the end. Ill probably play it really hard to the end initially, then come back only after major updates, or multiple major updates. I have played Everquest and Vanilla WoW on and off for like.... 20 years. If a games fun (which Pantheon has been fun for me), people come back. If its dead and I can't find anyone after the initial rush then that would be a big issue.
I want to have hope for it, but honestly the outlook doesn't seem good. They don't have enough money for the time they're investing and with Brad gone (although he was no saint) it feels like there's a lack of direction. Maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised if they manage to pull it off.
Pretty much gave up on Pantheon. Did a weekend stress test for monsters and memories and felt like I was in an MMO, captured my attention completely. On the other hand Pantheon feels like a coop RPG.
The game's original vision died with Brad McQuaid. They've changed the art style and design philosophy of the game. But most important of all, they took 10 years to do nothing but start over again and again. Lastly, they took a bunch of money from people and are still asking for more after a decade lol...I'd rather support Niche World Cult , that game hasn't accepted a single dollar and it's true to the original design Pantheon was going for. I've play tested it and it's got something for us old school EQ'ers and not just lipservice. Proven through action.
What if I told you, you can play both games? :)
I never followed Pantheon, just happened to stumble on this video randomly... but the combat looks really boring. I hope it feel better than it look tbh.
If you have never played EQ, then you probably don’t “get it” but this is not an action MMO. This slower combat is trying to be more strategic (as opposed to button mashing). Some of that strategy goes into what you even prepare for skills and spells before combat, how they interact with your skills and the group’s skills, and how you are dealing with/locking downs adds. You are probably pressing a skill every 2 or 3 seconds on average. Some people prefer this “boring” combat over pressing 3 keys in rapid succession and spattering everything around you. I guess you could also find that “boring”.
Lots of good advice in this video and the corresponding one. I hope they take some of it. It's a great game so far, but a lot of people won't be prepared for an early access this early.
Games shouldn’t go into early access TOO early. It should be at least in a beta state, there should be a complete enough game that there is no wipes
I'm in favor of wipes at the end of Early Access honestly. I get that its a bit different for MMOs but it preserved the full experience for BG3 when they wiped at release.
@@Redbeardflynn yeah I mean for MMOs
Basically my worries, that EA opens a floodgate that they are only to push back so much so much due to team, resources and time.
Embers Adrift is in a similar situation a couple of years after it's release where they need new areas, new content, new armor and weapon models and more but they can only put out so much because their team is so small. And lack of content, however much you think you might have, will not keep the players for as long as you think.
I hope there's some stuff behind the scenes that makes them more confident than I am in EA, but I have my concerns.
I think you'll agree with my hopes too then in the other video. Basically hoping it goes under the radar like a bg3. More players and more ability to play together but not a new world type flood
people still believe in this scam? lol
What game are you currently playing and enjoying? :)
You really don't know what a scam is(which is deeply concerning) to make such an asinine comment.
They have a base game already brainiac
just in the past 3 months we've been promised more races and the necro class. promises made, promises broken.
How are they broken?
Necro and several playable races were scheduled for Sept 28th, currently all of that is still on schedule so I'm not understanding the comment
@@Redbeardflynn pretty sure they were scheduled for the beginning of sept, like the 6th, and were pushed back. also waiting on ogres and halflings to return as promised. maybe we'll get dark myr on 28th too. not holding my breath any longer.
@@TheKrinkled1 Ah no, they listed it the 9th yeah but that was on the prod tracker incorrectly because it didnt account for the longer season prior to it and used the wrong dates. If you want to hold them for that mistake sure, but it wasnt like they promised and delayed. Ogres and dwarves *are* delayed, dark myr, halflings, elves planned for the 28th.
I want to believe. I feel it in the water. No, wait. Let’s start over. Ok, I need the poster from X-Files, some Kool-Aid, cheesecake flavored, and guarantee so outlandish that I can safely say "This is a joke, right?"
The problem is that when you are wanting a "new thing", regardless of the thing, you are either a pessimist or an optimist. There's really no in-between. I want a good game. I’m hoping for a great game, but I’m expecting something much more, um, Plain Jane.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Jane. She is a great girl and I respect her a great deal. I mean, I couldn’t do what she does. But when you really want Laura Croft, she just can’t cut it.
I understand this 100% and I hear it in the voice. As CEO and creator of such a title I know what this means. Ever choice I make is a risk reward choice. Now I could continue and tell you why they are in this spot and think the risk is worth the squeeze. As you stated this could be as much the great beginning as it could be the ugly ending. I personally am seeking full funding and the original phase work tried and true. 3 - 5 alphas of various sizr and target, a closed beta and then a open beta into a solid wipe and launch everyone starting equal. Zero pay to win!
this game is going to be dead on arrival
Why's that?
@@Redbeardflynn Because there's a total of 400 people on the planet that want this kind of game.
@@adamlannerd1408 I don't know.... Player run servers of legacy Everquest still get mid-high 00's and sometimes 1000+ at peak hours. Especially when 'expansions' are released.
@@adamlannerd1408 Just because the silent majority don't leave comments on videos like this, doesn't mean they don't exist. 🤣 There are a lot of people who used to play old-school MMORPG's that got left behind because the industry decided to cater to the solo player. More profit doesn't necessarily mean more satisfying gameplay. It's like when J. Allen Brack said, "You think you do, but you don't" when referencing the idea that ended up being WoW Classic. We know how that turned out.
@@adamlannerd1408 the current season has more people than a lot of lower tiers mmo and you had to pay a bunch of money for access lmao
The only thing amazing about this game is how little progress they have made with it.
Anyone remember Crowfall? Vibes
As much as I want Pantheon and Monsters & Memories to succeed, I'm not hopeful. The reason theme park MMOs succeed is because they respect player's time. I can log into FF14 for 30 minutes and progress the main quest or do a couple duties, even if the game doesn't respect player skill, but in group focused old school games I have to spend that entire time searching LFG. If I don't play for several hours at a time, progression is non-existent. At least M&M's saving grace is that it seems to respect player skill, even if it doesn't respect their time. Pantheon respects neither.
Both games will really need to figure out a nut thats been hard to crack: How long is long enough to feel rewarding but not punishing.
And then couple that with: How much is social enough without feeling forced?
In a weird way when you look back at EQ, it did pretty well with that, Vanguard, too. You *could* progress solo, you *could* progress at a decent pace, but there was always incentive to do things with friends because it was just better.
The good thing with both games imo is they're both going into Early Access and will hopefully take player feedback, both spoken feedback and behavior feedback, looking at data...etc.
I stopped following this game a while ago - are clerics the only ones that can res? Is there xp loss on death? Class specific and player run fast travel only through player cast spells except maybe a gate/home call?
When it seemed like they were going away from the core of what made EQ 1, EQ 1, I gave up. Still have my VP access though from way back, so maybe if it comes back to the promised roots I could get my faith back.
From what I read from pantheon mmo page classes, Clerics, Paladins and Shamans can ressurect ( Shaman rezz leaving a rezz sickness ) And then theres druids that cannot rezz but instead before someone dies put some kind of protective bubble on them that will let them emerge when battle is over. Go to pantheon mmo and take a look, they listed some key class abilities under each class.
Palia is free. I don't think I've ever been upset for spending zero dollars for an unfinished product. I simply uninstall and move on.
Oh its not about it being unfinished. It's about pretending it *is* finished when it wasn't. There was no reason why Palia couldn't have just used the Early Access tag. It created unnecessary blowback for little to no gain.
Good video Redbeardflynn. I can't wait for part two. I wish that I could share your optimism that the label of "Early Access" will not result in review bombs and destruction of this title. I still really want this game to come out and be successful. So many indie studios get this part so so wrong that I am not sure if we're about to witness another train wreck or the most magical train to roll up to the station. Looking at VR's other miss steps in the past doesn't give me much confidence that it wont be a train wreck.
I can't agree with you more that they needed to think through and communicate the monetization plan BEFORE announcing early access. However, since that ship has already sailed maybe they could also offer a pack that includes some physical merch like T-shirts, coffee mugs, or a cloth map of the game world like old school games of yore. They have the cloth map as an option in one of the much higher pledge tiers but I am on hard times and cannot make that kind of leap no matter how badly I would like to make it.
Part 2 launches at the same time ;) was testing something.
I'll generally always err on the side of optimism when I can because there's just so much negativity in general.
As for physical merch: speaking from experience with my own merch it has really really low margins. But if they can find a print on demand store they like I don't see why not. I mostly just wear my own merch though 😅
@@Redbeardflynn YT didn't want to show me the 2nd part yet so I'll go find it.
You got coffee mugs? That's all I really do, but they got to be big coffee mugs. I require a large infusion of coffee in the mornings so tiny mugs don't get no love from me.
Good video Red - My expectations is simple ..That they go on every 6th week with updates (no matter how big/small they are) just as it has been under 2024. And also i see a bright future for Pantheon, yeah i know i'm optimistic, but when i logg in these days i freakin love it, it feels great. And in my humble opinion, it can only get better from here on.
Yep I think that'll be most people's expectations which will probably put the next expected update post EA... February-ish? Something like that?
@@Redbeardflynn Yeah, late February early March, is my expectations.
I loved Everquest. I loved Vanguard. I was a big fan of Brad and his game theory, non instance, travel time, community. I've watched Pantheon development you years and years. But I found Mortal Online 2 and have not looked back. MO2 does everything better. My recommendation is to give it and try and see what I mean. Pantheon, ashes of creation, and other epic mmos these days at dead imo.
Tried a bit of mortal online 2 myself, wasn't the game for me but I'm so happy you've found a great home there!
@Redbeardflynn Man, I've been hooked. It has everything, share experiences, player driven intrigue, a real high fantasy world full of elves, dwarves, humans, and orcs, 4 magic schools, no GPS, true exploration and discovery, pets, non istanced housing, real sword fighting, chases on horse back, land navigation, strategy, team work, kingdoms, one huge uninstanced world that everyone is on, massive wars, role play, emersion. It's Skyrim online. There are so many hours of content, so much lost sleep.
😬
😉
The combat and UI need more "mmph".
The UI needs a dedicated UI dev before 1.0 for sure. Combat is getting there. Feels pretty good right now, but new vfx needed.
Remove computer programmers from the overtime exclusion would remove crunch.
that would only degrade quality. You can't do mentally taxing levels of focus, like programming requires, for more than around 4 hours per day before it degrades noticeably, by 8 hours it's pretty much gone quality wise. Over time pay isn't going to fix that.
@@zarroth Giving overtime pay isn't to make programmers work more hours but less. Currently Employers can demand salary exempt jobs to work overtime without pay or compensation or time off. This is why crunch exists. It's cheaper to burn out programmers work them 60-80 hours than to hire a 2nd one to fill the extra demand.
The game still looks like the graphics are from Ashron's Call 2...
Oo that's a new one! Usually its "EQ" or "Fortnite"
Pantheon is another Shroud of the Avatar to me.
I am not too concerned about their dev team burning out. They just got back from an 8 year paid vacation. I can't even take this game seriously as an MMO when they don't even have a character generator. Every human male looks exactly the same. Not even a mobile game would release previews with that level of lack of variety. They are releasing something playable in hopes their backers won't sue them. Which is probably going to happen anyway since the game delivered has no similarity to the game promised.
Making an mmo isnt the same as making 1990's Tetris or Super mario. Theres alot of coding and details. They even said the game had problems in the beginning with spaghetti code and they hired a guy to re do the coding. You dont want a game built on spaghetti coding as that will cause more and more problems in the future for devs and players.
@@kjetilandreeide7464 The technical problems they had with their code is not where the 8 years and millions of dollars were spent. They were iterating on new concepts literally for years. Ideas they spent months to develop which never even made it to the final game. They had zero direction from the start, or perhaps the direction passed away with Brad.
Redbeardflynn: "Pantheon's Early Access: What to Fear"
Answer: The game itself.
Nah. Game is fun
This comment could be taken at least a couple different ways. A) The game is fun, but more challenging or punishing than most typical MMOs in recent years, or B) The game is not fun and not worth your time. Which is it?
@@justjesting9468 haha I think you can tell how I took it. Maybe I'm defensive 😅
Doomed to fail cuz of the graphic choice.
Such a superficial and ignorant comment.
Id rather have a mmo with not so great gfx as long as artstyle is cool rather then a mmo that requires top end GPU's to run... Everquest 2 made that mistake and made the game too gfx heavy for its time and alot of players including myself couldnt run it. It was also released at the same time as Wow and I could run Wow with my current pc. I think EQ2 lost alot of players to Blizzard because of this.
@@googleifyouseekayu what graphics are you comparing it to? Is EQ realistic in your mind?
@@B1u35ky whatever helps u sleep at night.
It's not really a "crunch" if you've had a decade to fck around beforehand.
Every startup crunches. It's how the investment cycle works.