Winchester Lever Action Development: Model 1892
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- As the Model 1873 began to show its age, Winchester wanted a new rifle to take its place in the company catalog. Scaling down the Model 1886 to the pistol cartridges of the 1873 seemed like a fine option, and Winchester executives approached John Browning, offering him $10,000 if he could produce such a gun within 3 months, or $15,000 if he could do the job in two months. Browning’s response was to say that he would take $20,000 and have the rifle in company hands within 30 days - or else he would give it to them for free.
The $20,000 that Winchester paid him for the new rifle was well worth it, as the 1892 would become the best selling Winchester rifle to that date, selling more than a million guns by the 1930s. It used the stronger and more cost effective locking system of the 1886, while being chambered for the same cartridges as the 1873 - the .44 WCF (.44-40), .38 WCF (.38-40), and .32 WCF (.32-20), as well as a few new cartridges added over time.
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Winchester went down to Utah
He was looking for a design to buy
He was in a bind, the 1873 was way behind
He was looking to make a deal
When he came across a man
Filing on a levergun frame and filing it hot
And Winchester jumped up on a hickory stump and said,
"Boy let me tell you what:
I guess you didn´t know it, but I'm a gun maker too,
And if you'd care to take a dare,
I'll make a bet with you
Now you make a pretty good levergun,
Boy, but give Winchester his due
I bet a mountain of cash against your gat
'Cause I think I'm better than you"
The man said, "My name's John and it might be a sin,
But I'll take your bet, you're gonna regret,
'Cause I'm the best there's ever been"
Sean Heihn TH-cam comment of the day! Fine work Sir!
Reposted to the Facebook page. :)
That was my laugh for the day. Bravo!
Ha, that is great. I sung that in my head.
Excellent!
John Brownimg deserves a video dedicated to him !
I somehow doubt that one video wold be enough.
One video would be enough. It'd be a damn long one though :D
Giloup92 yes!
I still watch the "J.M. Browning" Tales of the Gun episode from time to time. Love it.
By "video," you mean mini-series, right? :)
Browning was a pretty baller dude, haggling with Winchester like that. Then again, he's probably the only guy who could get away with it...
The fact his biggest buyer routinely visited him offering large sums of money for even unusable patents shows that they valued Browning, and Browning knew that.
Hard to say no to the best gun designer in history
Maverick44 they eventually did though. Winchester’s biggest mistake. When browning made a pump action .22 he told Winchester he want royalties on every one sold. Browning ended up getting his deal with another manufacturer and that little gun became the most popular .22 in the world. Had Winchester taken that deal we would probably still have pump action .22 rifles to this day. Though it did free browning up for handgun market so we would probably never have the 1911 had Winchester taken the deal
@@redneckwithajeep5001 which 22?
@@redneckwithajeep5001 that particular kerfuffle was over the auto 5 not the Remington 22 pump guns
The rifle arrived today and I dialed in the scope just a couple hours ago th-cam.com/users/postUgkxQt2uORDRfFOVSrO4idv4B90ThT6EOnEL . I haven’t shot with a scope in probably 25 years. The X on the left was my target. (the shot almost in the bullseye on the right X was my father in laws first shot after I made adjustments) The two shots circled are my first 2 shots. Then I brought it down - shot once. Then brought it over to the left. From there zeroed it in to dead center. This all was from 25 yards out. Follow instructions carefully when mounting the scope. So far I'm very happy with the purchase.
"Well, I am the newest employee at this here Winchester company, anything I need to know before I start working here."
"Well, you see, we have a company policy: When in doubt, throw a wad of cash as John Moses Browning."
"Uhm... that sounds totally insane."
"Indeed it does, do you want to know what the wierest part of it is?"
"Heavens, it get's worse?"
"It TOTALLY WORKS. We are doing GREAT."
*Browning shows up, senior employee promply chucks a pack of dollar bills in his face, giving him a black eye. Sales increase.*
"See?"
Even though it is a scaled down version, making a prototype in 2 weeks is still really impressive. When you consider the machining equipment they had in those days even more so.
They would sell them in Siam,
They would sell them in Miam',
They would sell them to the Brits,
They would sell them where they eat grits,
They would sell them overseas,
They would sell them where they make cheese,
They would sell them modified,
They would sell them to a guide,
They would sell them the world around,
And still we see they do abound.
You could buy one in Qatar,
And lean it up on your guitar.
yeah..or in ur asses!!?? :D
These were the fully lever automated actions of automatic fire of their day ah yes the AR-1892 what a gun
browning really was a genius engineer, the US military still uses his designs today, a la the m2 hmg.
that serial number puts it's production date at late 1918
It's hard to find a modern pistol that doesn't have some ties to Browning.
holy shit "aint nobody got time for dat." that's a long ass comment, friend.
Taolan8472 Bwahaha nice! Hope he learned the error of his ways...
How do you mess up one of the simplest guns ever made?
i like how he admits mistakes amd corrects them. keep up the awsome videos.
"amd".... I see what you did there.
@@michaelbrooker1433 also "awsome"
A few years later Winchester severed its relationship with JMB...declaring that nothing new could possibly be invented by him...JMB went to Belgium and continued to prove Winchester wrong until his death in 1926...
Since Ian started with the Henry Rifle a few days ago, I have been waiting for this one. May not be the best rifle ever made, but it's my favorite.
Thanks Ian and keep up the excellent work.
The '92 gun is from 1918, according to winchester
Least forgotten Forgotten Weapon
Steyr guns can get on forgotten weapons even when still in production due to Steyr's ingenious marketing program: If we make good guns then people will buy lots of them, right? And if we make them good enough, we don't need to waste money on advertising!
When I was a kid I used to think the west’s only guns were Winchester 1892s and Colt peacemaker’s thanks to Hollywood.
I had a Mattel Winchester '92...with operating lever, loading gate, tubular magazine, elevator and "shell" ejecting...must've been ca. 1959 or so...
"In Ravenholm you do well... To be vigilant." - Father Grigori
" "
-Gordon Freeman
Great series. Now please do the same with Marlin lever rifles.
bibbyman2 nowadaze Marlin makes a better gun but, back the Winchester was the sizzle
I would like to see that as well as compare and contrast the 2 systems. watching the evolution. is fascinating!!! way to go Ian!!
Love this series, never knew the big loop lever was a modern add but it makes sense, it just made Chuck Conners and John Wayne look that much cooler!
For a while Browning sold a decent copy called the B92 made by Miroku in Japan just like the current "Winchester" . The Brownings have been discontinued. The Miroku "Winchester" while decent, is still very far from close to an original. That horrible tang safety is just about in the worst location imaginable. The extra safety parts in the action were never a part of originals. Rossi 92s can be found once in a while but are very cheaply made and not even close in exact measurements or fit and finish.
The one and ONLY Company that currently makes a 100% identical copy of the 1892 Winchester, with the quality that actually lives up to the Winchester name is Chiappa in Italy and imported through either Cimarron Firearms or Taylor's and Company. From there they are sold through dealers. They are so exact their parts (minus the few altered for the modern caliber) can be swapped into original Winchesters. Of lately, however they have been next to impossible to find in stock. They are still kinda pricey but Vs the cost of an original, not too bad.
A safety is required to import firearms into the US. Blame the government for forcing companies to add that on. Gov did not accept the time-tested half-cock safety system as adequate.
@@leonardrodgers5746 Well, unfortunately, there are a number of folks out there that that could mess up a wet dream without even thinking, so those safeties are what they are,....unfortunately.
Have a '92 Trapper. Love it, favorite of my lever guns. Nice and compact. That small receiver lends itself nicely to an overall short carbine.
Ian are you going to do a 7.62x54r 1895 in this series?
nutin2new he already has a while back :)
He's already done a very comprehensive one about the russian military contract 1895, maybe he'll make one about the regular comercial 1895.
He said two more, so that would be the '94 and the '95.
My grandfather ended up with an old 1892 Winchester in the 1920's because he was owed $20, that the man couldn't pay. I now have that gun and have researched it and it is first year of manufacture, 44/40 octagonal barrel and in excellent condition. Still shoots very well too. Love Grandpa's old gun.
If it is a 20" barrel Carbine, would you kindly verify for me how many cartridges it will hold in the magazine, 10 or 11 ?
@@joevalicenti2722 Not a Carbine. 24" barrel and holds 13 rounds. Each round is a little over 1.5" and I would have a hard time believing you could get more than 10 rounds in a carbine as that would be over 4.5" into a barrel only 4 " longer.
@@R182video That's the issue. If you ask folks they say the 24" Rifle holds 12 but I also have documented proof that it holds and fires 13 from the magazine tube. Still trying to verify the Carbine.
@@R182video Found the answer! Per The history of Winchester firearms, 1866-1966 Hardcover - January 1, 1966 by George R Watrous (Author) the Winchester Model
1892 in caliber .44-40 magazine capacities are as follows:
Standard 24" Rifle - 13
Standard 20" Carbine - 11
@@joevalicenti2722 Great... I will say i could get 13- 3/4 bullets in my gun, so I can see how 11 can go in a carbine.
I think 99% of the rifles used in western movies were ‘92s, regardless of what period the film was set in.
Hi Ian, at what point did the Winchester rifle designs change to accept smokeless powder cartridges? I realize smoke less powder existed at the time of the 1892s development. Were early models black powder and later ones smokeless?
That started with the Model 1894 and the Model 1895 which should be the next two rifles in the series
Brett Hutchison , does that mean that all model 92 rifles, even those made after 1900 are still black powder?
hallman244 Yes
Basically yes (it depends on what you mean by model). Later versions of this rifle, especially in the "varmint" calibers all used smokeless loads. The action was strong enough so later ammunition used smokeless powder. There was even a smokeless powder designated "Bulk" which could (at least theoretically) be loaded volume for volume into black powder cases. The pressure curves weren't identical, however, so there was some risk involved when using it in older guns.
There was also some tradition involved in cartridge nomenclature, where the first number was caliber, the second the weight of the charge of black powder, and the third (if used) was the bullet weight. The 30 30 Winchester kept the designation even though it was a smokeless design from the beginning. There was even the 32 Winchester special, a smokeless powder cartridge that was designed to be reloaded with black powder if the shooter desired.
smokeless powder cartridges are designed to higher pressures, but black powder cartridges are still loaded to lower pressures, even with smokeless in factory loadings.
My favorite. The 1892 is a strong action, can take modern magnum calibers. Winchester offered a load "WHV" for "Winchester High Velocity" cartridges that out performed 357 / 44 Mag. Too dangerous because the load cold destroy the 1873 Winchester rifle. I have a FMOBR 92 in 38-40, plus a repo Rossi 92 in 357 Mag. Ian didn't mention that the 92 action is smooth as butter, so fine.
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Imagine the 1915 Howell Conversion outfitted for a lever action
I love these series detailing a specific type of guns development, Ian. Definitely keep up the good work
Are you gonna do a video at the end detailing the changes made to the current reproductions?
my modern production 1892 is one of my favorite rifles to shoot. just an amazingly nice handling and shoot able rifle
Iconic rifle and a great backstory. I'm pretty sure JMB had the prototype nearly done or he would not have made that bet. He was probably just figuring out a few final dimensions. It would have been logical at the time to downsize the 86 to the shorter cartridges, since many people preferred them and the 73 had been so popular. Great video as always. Thank you
Rolling block remington
The prototype was the 1886 lever. The 92 is basically a scaled down version of it
Hello Ian,
You comment that the 44 WCF caliber configuration makes up 80% of the total Model 1892 production. I can assure you that this is far from being correct. In an effort to answer jsut these sort of questions precisely I have been conducting a research survey of the Model 1892 rifles for over 6 years now and have cataloged just over 10,200 individual rifles. Based on this data set it is apparent that the 44 WCF in fact makes up approximately 22% of the total number of rifles sampled. It would be almost impossible that the other three caliber choices are dramatically over represented in the market place to skew the numbers that dramatically.
Sincerely
Michael
like "Terminator 2" reload?
Ian, would You and Carl do a mud test on any Browning-Winchester gun?
Is it possible to take an 1886 apart? It'd be nice to see how it works inside.
I really appreciate your work. Enough details to make the delivery very entertaining and informative. Keep up the good work.
Here it is near the end of 2021 and I am about to become the owner of a brand new Model 92.
I have an 1892 pattern rifle, a Rossi in .45 Colt. It is my favorite lever gun.
Crazy that the model B92 carbine (.357Mag) that my grandfather passed on to me is almost exactly the same as the carbine here
Point of curiosity. A friend of mine with a winchester collection has a 92 with the half tube chambered in 25-20 and it was issued to a British armed merchant shipping crew to fend off against Uboats in ww1
Wonderful presentation, thank you for your time posting this excellent information.
Ian when did they get rid of the safety on the loading lever? what did they replace it with? is there a half cock notch or something. I know you mentioned an out of battery safety is that it?
Enjoying this series, but the Winchester story is fairly well known. Please do a series on the Marlin lever guns. All I really know is 1894, 1895, and 1893 (which I've rarely seen). No idea where the 336 and some of the others fit in.
Skull Face's rifle in MGS5 is based on this gun.
I have a usable M92 carbine clone. Great in thick woods. Whenever you see a picture of John Wayne with a rifle it was a M92 carbine. He was very particular I have heard to use the same gear in every movie right down to his vest. Those props were reserved for him. There was a big sweat on a wardrobe department one time when they couldn't find his vest. Armorer wasn't as dumb. He knew exactly what Wayne wanted and had it there.
Did any gun-makers try to make a side-by-side 2x barrel and action operated by a single lever? (Rifle or Shotgun)
One lever to rule them all!
or did anyone ever make a left-handed leveraction?
I DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT KIND OF IMPROVEMENTS DID WINCHESTER ASKED FROM BROWNING. or what for did he got 20k usd.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. The f*ck you mean, Winchester is a Connecticut company?! The prideless state I have LIVED IN FOR 16 YEARS?! AND THEY WERE IN NEW HAVEN!? 😂 I had a really good Thai soup there a few years ago. Wow, I can't believe all those *expletive* university students walk on sacred gun grounds.
Kind of upsetting actually...
No 1887 shotgun? :(
As I found out fairly recently, the BSAP (The Rhodesian paramilitary police force) bought a 1000 in 44-40 for issue to the auxiliary Matabele police... A poor decision when they were turned against them!
My first gun after air rifle was a 94/22, simply elegant and functional guns.
My bro Rusty had 1..rip
The loop lever gimmick was first used by John Wayne in the 1939 John Ford movie "Stagecoach" Reportedly, it was cooked up by stuntman Yakima Canute, Ford and Wayne as a memorable introduction for Wayne's character in the movie. He's stranded in the desert after his horse went down. He hails the coach by spin cocking the rifle. Even though Wayne was over 6 feet tall, they still had to cut the barrel down to clear his armpit for the spin. He used it in numerous movies over the years like Rio Bravo and even in the final shoot out of True Grit. Of course the model 92 hadn't been invented until decades after the time frame of most Hollywood westerns, but they were cheap and plentiful at the time, so they were used from the 30's and on until Italian replicas began to appear in the 1970's
$20,000 USD in 1893 is worth about $721,000 in today's money.
Its funny to see these weapons While the oldest surviving example of a squirt gun dates to J.W. Wolff's June 30, 1896 patent ... just four years after the winchester 1892
And John Browning said "I only need one month to give you a rifle that will bring prosperity to your company"
Definitely one of my favorites series Ian, looking forward to the next one
Have a 92 serial 343,### circa 1906 with a Lyman (I think that's the name) flip up rear sight, no buck horn sight but the dove tail to mount one is in the barrel...is that an original option?
first centerfire rifle i ever fired was a model 92 in .25-20...good times
Looking for an 1892 Winchester 44/40 extractor. If anyone can help let me know thanks!
Can anyone tell me if you can just buy a leather stock cover for any Winchester 1800 series or does it need to be 1892 specific?
I seem to recall reading that there was a lot of hoopla about how much stronger the 92 was than the 1873 because of the vertical locking lugs. One of the gunsmith/writers of the time (P.O. ACKLEY?) proved this wasn't so by removing the lugs and firing it without incident.
The '73 was handling handgun cartridges just fine, the lugs were a big help when using rifle rounds (thus the '86). Putting the same system into the '92 was mere overbuild. Kind of like installing duallys into a station wagon: sure, they may have a place and purpose in a heavy-duty pickup, but on a _station wagon?_ Not so much.
Mine loooks like it hex barrel nickel rec,but short mag tube right at the end of fore end also peep sight says 94 on it but what model its also in 30wcf so any ideas
Nice to see, great video
"I am father Gregori. You have already met my... congregation"
Really enjoying this series Ian. Top work.
First from Norway. :3c
standart 24 inch model 1892 lever action rifle.
the 92 dose not look as good as the 82. it just seems like the loading gate on the 92 was not make with the same quality.
I have a Winchester 1892 Ser # 32XXX. Looking at Winchester Dates of Mfg. it was made in 1893. What is your thought on firing this old gun? I have some modern smokeless cartridges 38-40. Thank you.
If your dating is correct then Blackpowder only. I believe that an 1895 manufacture date is generally accepted as the ealiest that you can expect guns to be proofed for smokeless but I have never seen any factory sourced documents to prove it. For my own guns I use 1900 as the cut off especially with ones not made by mainstream manufacturers. Had an acquaintance with a BEAUTIFUL 1875 Remmy, fantastic condition dated to 1894. He wouldn't heed the warnings and after about 3 cylinders full of factory 44 40 ammo the cylinder cracked. Luckily it stayed together and no one was hurt but a lot of money leaked out of the gun at that moment. Also, there was a story circulating around the cowboy action crowd about 25 years ago concerning someone insisting on shooting smokeless out of a clearly presmokless Win 73. When the gun came apart the little cross pin, that holds the old style one piece firing pin into the bolt, sheared sending the firing pin backwards through his safety glasses into his eye. I might want to avoid that scenerio if possible. Good luck!
I have a model 1873 Winchester lever action rifle im look to sell .. I need help
John Wayne had a large loop 1892 carbine in the 1939 movie 'Stagecoach'. quite a famous scene is when Wayne flags down the stagecoach by firing the rifle and cycling the action as described. (watch?v=Wb4Q3jtyapc)
RIP Spef
2017-2017
How many cartridges does an ORIGINAL Model 1892 20" Carbine hold in 44WCF (44-40) ?
Found the answer! Per The history of Winchester firearms, 1866-1966 Hardcover - January 1, 1966 by George R Watrous (Author) the Winchester Model
1892 in caliber .44-40 magazine capacities are as follows:
Standard 24" Rifle - 13
Standard 20" Carbine - 11
I was after a barrel for my 1892 and here in Brazil I can't find
Hi Ian,
what happend to the video about the 1887? That you spoke about a long time ago?
I am still eagerly waiting for it...
This series is just on the rifles.
I know, but I am still wondering what happend back then. I remember you replying to a comment on a video (where people were shooting in funny costumes) that you will make a video on the gun used by a guy in that video.
Did something interfere?
Just haven't had a chance to coordinate filming with the guy who had that one. I do plan to make that video, but I don't know when it will happen.
Thanks for the vid sir.
When did the tang safety switch get added? I don't see it on these early models.
Really interesting video, thanks!!!
show up my favo now.. win.94!!! ;))
What a fine piece of equipment.
I have a model 1892 in 38-40. Serial #168. It has NEVER had a round fired through it.............. Belonged to my wife's great uncle who was an illustrator back in the day.
BTW according to the inflation calculator I found online - that $20,000 would in apx $550,000.00 in 2019 dollars.
Actually both John M and his brother Matthew S Browning co-patented the 1886 and the 1892 as well as the 1887, 1890, 1893, 1897 and colt 1895 MG. Their half-brother Edmund would have made the prototypes as he was the best machinist.
Browning remains the coolest guy to ever be
I can't wait for the 94 Winchester! One of my favorite firearms
Just started a new TH-cam channel come check it out
Browning was a master.
Too bad he didn’t insist upon royalties.
John Wayne used a 92 about 20 years before JMB himself designed it ...in 'Stagecoach'...
I would buy in France or Spain
I would shoot it in the rain
I would buy in California
I would buy in Bora Bora
I like your gun John Moses, dude!
Yes I would buy a '92!
I would buy it with a mouse
I would shoot it in the house
I would buy it in a shoe
With a finish green or blue
I like your gun John Moses, dude!
Yes, I would buy a '92!
Awesome! I learned a lot about a gun I own but didn't know much about. Interesting thing here, mine is marked "Model 1892 Winchester Trade Mark Reg. in U.S. Pat. Off." so it's a mix between the two you have here. Im assuming this is in between switching from 1892 to Model 92. Serial Number on mine is 504xxx. Must be middle of the batch. Thanks for the info!
So I'm guessing you're just going to be doing videos on the 1894 and 1895 then? Why not do videos on all the other lever action guns that Winchester sold? Like the 88, 9422, and the 1887/1901 shotguns?
in 1892 20000 Dollars was an Unheard Salary, with Inflation this would be close to 520000 Dollars Today. this i would say is a Decent Salary for one months Work just saying.
The gun that didn’t win the West, was hardly even present, yet dominates every movie or tv series on the West. To some degree, an after effect of Stagecoach combined with the fact that you have a handy carbine that fires 5 in 1 blanks. You would be surprised at the number of gun owners who believe they are seeing a Model 1894 and don’t even know the 92 existed!
I know that this is a old video but I just want to say....I LOVE lever action rifles, especially WINCHESTER!! Too bad they aren't made in the USA anymore. I'll keep my pre-64 model 94 until they pry it from my dead cold hands.
I swear half of the stuff JMB did was black magic.
Making an entirely new rifle prototype even off of an existing platform, in less than 2 weeks time, 12 days if he didn't work on Sundays, is uncanny.
Thank you for all the information I just gleaned from your video. I have a model 1892, a family heirloom that was handed to me by my dad. I have no idea where or when he got it but if came into the family via him. Mine is chambered in 3220, which is expensive as gold to buy but I still love this gun.
I’m curious what is the price range on this o?
Wow for context, 20,000 dollars in 1890 is equivalent to 517,000 today. A well spent month...
the saga of winchester: browning strikes again......again....for like the fourth time
One month, absurd, even for just scaling down a design. If he hadn’t already had much of the scaled down design ready, it’s Unbelievable.
ahhh yes a gun that you can kill witches with it
Thanks for the informative video! I just inherited a Model 1892 marked 25-20
8:05 ahh this flipping was also used in famous Terminator 2 scene where Schwarzernegger was riding with Harley Davidson and swing-cocked lever action shotgun Winchester M1887 to shoot the bad guy :D .