You have to reassure them to keep things together. From their viewpoint it makes sense. Would you write: "Dear Distributors, we are royally screwed! John Browning is gone, so you better sell different guns from now on."
Winchester: you have to be crazy to want royalties Remington: sorry we are currently having a heart attack FN: we will pay you royalties in USD, francs, beer, waffles or any combination of the four.
Must be hell for people trying to accurately research historical female dress. So many primary source photographs never printed or otherwise lost because they showed a hint of ankle.
It's amazing to think that all of this happened before such iconic firearms as the 1911 and the BAR. It must have been hard to watch the Brownings' incredible success after parting ways with them.
When JMB was a young man, tinkering in his father's gun shop in the late 1870s he made a completely functional semiautomatic version of Winchesters famous 1873 lever action. I hear that gun is in possession of a descendent of one of his father's shop workers, who John had given it to at the time, and that it is still works to this day.
4:15 can you IMAGINE if you went for a job interview and you got turned away because your future boss just straight up died? I'd take that personally, as an omen.
I applied for a job, got accepted, showed up for work on the first day just to find out my old future boss was gone, there's now a new one and he doesn't care about the deal. I had nothing on paper (I was reasobably expecting I will sign the contract on my first day, afterall I was like 23 years old and it was very entry level thing), so I went home :P
Secretary: "Sir, there is a John Browning here to see you." Remington executive: visible panic " how's my hair! Is my tie straight?!?" Secretary: "sir you need to calm down it's just a interview." Remington executive: *dies*
I was never into guns, but I have stayed here for 6-7 years because of Ian's narrative and engineering details. That should speak volumes about his skill #praisegunjesus ;)
@@leszekkadelski9569 I like guns but I don't shoot and I don't own one, but I stay for the same reasons as you. The engineering is what I'm interested in and he presents it in such an understanding way.
@@dbmail545 Horsecrap. Thanks anyway, Mr Helper but Elmore Leonard's first novel was The Bounty Hunters from 1953. The synopsis is "David Flynn is a legend in the rugged Arizona Territory-a U.S. cavalry-turned-army scout-and the only man alive who can bring in the fierce Mimbre Apache called Soldado Viejo. But for David Flynn, tracking down an elusive Indian with a price on his head south of the border is a dangerous business…especially when a cunning outlaw and a murderous bounty hunter dog his path. Now Flynn’s riding hard for trouble on a bloody trail of treachery and slaughter in a lawless land where a man’s got to watch his back against friend and enemy, red man and white man alike. And if he’s Flynn-on the deadliest mission of his career-that means a one-way trip into a sultry desert hell…where the hunter is about to become the hunted…and where one man’s struggle for justice has just erupted in the battle of his life…" Sounds just like Rio Bravo to me. The story for Rio Bravo was credited to "B.H. McCampbell." This was actually Hawks' eldest daughter, Barbara Hawks McCampbell (McCampbell being her married name). Her contribution was the idea of using dynamite in the final shootout.
@@KuK137 Apparently you're not as well-informed as you like to think you are, considering you used Microsoft as an example and they have a very.... how shall we say, "colorful" (if not questionable) business history. The early days of personal computers were the electronics equivalent of The Great War: Far more ugly than most people nowadays realize.
@@KuK137 Yeah let's use the exceptions that prove the rule as examples to not prove the rule.... Wait.... Oh it's almost like that kind of success is very rare and that risky decisions backfire far more often than they succeed. At the end of the day luck and being at the right place at the right time had more to do with those successes than any bold business strategy did.
@@TheFanatical1 Yep, sounds like he was just asking for pretty standard stuff, stuff he was already getting from everybody else he worked with. Winchester just decided to be obstinate.
Interesting that a busy man like Browning apparently travelled frequently back and forth from America to Belgium. Remember this is the era before air travel, transatlantic travel meant lengthy trips on steamships.
I loved my A-5. Another firearm I wish I had never sold. My dad bought it at a garage sale in Denver. The guy who sold it said the barrel was bulged. My dad bought it for $2.50 as a wall hanger. My dad had it on the rifle rack for 2 years when I started to look at it. I took it to work to have one if the gunsmiths to look at it and the silent owner who really only plays in the gunsmiths shop. He asked me what was wrong with it. I told him what the guy that sold it to us said and he looked at me all puzzled. 10 minutes later we were elbow deep into it. The barrel was perfect for being made in 1926. Turns out that the bolt block was worn out. We ordered a new one from Brownells. I can't tell you how many times Brownells has saved my bacon. Well I got my first gunsmithing project right in front of me. When we took it apart the block that is at the end of the bolt pushes up and locks a square 3/4 if a inch or so up into the rear tang of the barrel into a square hole and it pivots on a 1/4 curved outset ridge to act like a really good hinge. It's the best way I can put it. I had to machine the curved ridge so it would move smoothly in the slot and lock up in the barrel. For most gunsmiths this would have 5aken a hour with setup. Me not that fast. I spent about 8 1/2 hours machining it on equipment that was as old as I am. All 5 of the gunsmiths helped me but the owner was in control. I def everything he asked and when everything was said and done I fired line it was brand new. Between my dad and I we had less then $45.00 in it including flitz and Emory cloth. But I did it. I made the shotgun run like a champ. After that everytime a firearm was finished I would take it on the range and test fire it 5 rounds and I would put the brass and the target in the box. Sometimes I would write a note on the target for the owner. That was in 1998. Since then I lived at the gunsmiths shop helping anywhere they needed. I was lucky enough to have their trust and the ability to work on my own firearms whenever I wanted.i never had the time to take gunsmithing classes at the gunsmithing academy that was out in Lakewood Colorado. It seems to be one of the better well known gunsmithing schools. I still live by their advice. Never work on a firearm that isn't mine. That firearm that I say I will look at it my be a family herloom that can't be replaced.i know enough to be dangerous. I never work on a firearm without a real gunsmith president. I don't want to hurt anyone. If you don't know ask. If you have no one to ask then get professional help. You will save in the end and you won't lose sleep. Happy Safe Shooting 🇺🇸💪.
Well it appears that you can`t build a fruitfull endeavour, after burning the bridge, scorching the earth, salting the land, and then going like ... yoo we good, right - you still design stuff for us for pennies, while we make big bang, yeah? Shocking, must have been an absolutly harrowing experience for the top brass back then :P Added to that ... the lawyers really did their jobs at least
I bought it too after he did a review on it. Haven't had a chance to read it yet though, as I've already got a pile of books I need to get through as-is. Still glad I got it for my library.
Ordered the book and was impatient enough to order it on Kindle as well. Apparently, FN had their doubts about the Auto-5 as well. Not so much doubt about the design as much as FN was not heavily into sporting arms at the time. This attitude had changed by the time JMB designed the Superposed shotgun, undoubtedly due to the commercial success of the Auto-5.
It’s possible that my father purchased a LNIB Belgian made Browning Sweet 16 sometime during the 1960s… sometimes a mechanism is beautiful in form, function and design.
Love my auto 5. Bought it with a broken firing pin. Gave the serial number to Browning, they sent me a new one free and told me it was made in 1930. Shoots great still
We've had a photo copy of that letter at the info desk for years. I love how you came to the same conclusion about Winchester not wanting the Auto 5 competing with the 97 that I came to myself a few years back.
When you read the part about Browning getting the loser end of the deal, I immediately thought about the .50 Winchester Machine Gun caliber, the Winchester Automatic Rifle in WWII, the M1911 pistol, the Winchester M2 machine gun........ Oh wait, those were all designed by John Browning.
@@TheFanatical1 That is the point...Winchester would never be able to invent those guns....they might engineer them to be manufactured better then JMB sketchy drawings but they would NEVER invent new guns that establish their own culture and are still purchased 100 years later. JMB had the vision to invent new guns and ammo to solve problems that had not been solved before. Winchester was just a manufacturing and sales company.
I have an 1954 BELGIUM Browning A-5 "Sweet Sixteen" Gauge that my father had when he was just a wee lad. It had a Cutt's Compensator installed and came with a host of gaudy screw in chokes. I wouldn't even DREAM of parting with that thing. Best duck gun... EVER!!!
In the breakup, Bennett kept Browning's two toy poodles and his mother's silverware set. Browning never forgave him for that. He loved those dogs and the only reason he didn't go all John Wick on Bennett was his strict religious background.
Lolwut? Why would he have been holding his two puppers n mum's silverware in the first place? Unless they were roommates, that would be an odd happenstance. If they were, that'd both make it a dock move and kind of understandable.
From what I remember from the book-which I bought on your recommendation-Matthew was the business guy and felt Browning was getting shafted by the one shot payment and pushed JMB towards the split. Also, Winchester supposedly was buying all the patents just so they would not worry about having to compete if he sold something to a different company, e.g. Colt, and during this time period JMB had invented an exceptionally large number of designs which increased the number of “non-viable” patents Winchester was buying, and they were not happy with that, either.
This is where I usually say " well it was your idea, genius!" Winchester backed themselves into that corner, not JMB. They knew he worked with other companies, and had to be aware of how they paid him. Thinking their status quo would be sustainable long-term was very shortsighted. Sure JMB made a prolific amount of guns at that time that were fringe or only vaguely marketable, but firearms and manufacturing technology were exploding at that time and such is the price of staying on the "tip of the spear"
In Finland, we used to call all handguns 'prouninki' after John Moses Browning. My grandfather brought along a Colt revolver when he returned from America. He always referred to it as his prouninki. Likewise, my uncle brought back a Soviet Nagant from the front. Another prouninki.
This video reminds me the video about history of Colt-company. I really enjoyed it and I wish Ian would do similar videos about Winchester, Remington, FN and other major (and why not minor) companies.
Ian, I think this was your best video *ever!* And thanks to you, I just ordered the book on your right... THANK you, and stay well! ETA: I will place a printout of that letter in the book when it arrives!!
I'd love to see an in depth biography of Edwin Pugsley done. From what I understand, the man was the driving force behind getting Browning to work with Winchester during World War I.
The freedom that Browning got from that break with Winchester opened the door for the most productive time in John Browning's history and sealed him into the annals of early 20th Century Firearm Design whereupon nearly every other successful handgun, shotgun and machine gun owes debts to a Browning designs.
Winchester couldn’t shine John Moses Brownings shoes. JMB was the most prolific ahead of his time gun inventor in the history of the universe. Most well known gun inventors like Glock, Luger, Thompson, ect. we’re fortunate to invent one gun. Browning invented dozens of popular and successful weapons. Some our modern military still uses today. The 1911 45acp alone would have made Browning a legend.
Thank you Ian! I just knew the version you spoke of, ending with JMB in the Remington CEO's waiting room, and the CEO being wheeled out on a gurney, and not coming down for breakfast the next day, etc. Winchester's lawyers evidently did their job very well, to the eventual detriment of their client. LOL The big W made a lot of cabbage with JMB, and just imagine if they had given him what he asked for... FN would still be chugging along, doing their thing(s), The Winchester Auto-5 would be a smash hit, and there would never be a Remington Model 11, 1100, etc. Hard to even imagine. Thanx again Ian!
Love to hear the history as much as seeing the firearms, so I appreciate you making content like this. Also thanks to the Cody Arm Museum for their graciousness.
Can you imagine if the Commandant of the U.S. Arsenal at Springfield wrote a similar letter in the 1920’s explaining his reason for firing John C. Garand?
I've never been able to figure out how wealthy John Browning actually was. In addition to being a massive fan of the 1911, and therefore a massive fan of John Browning, I'm also a massive fan of Gilded Age mansions. I'm kinda crazy about them. Being a big fan of Browning, who was alive and invented all of his famous firearms during the heart of the "Glided Age", I figured that he probably had a huge Gilded Age mansion and I wanted to see what it looked like or if it was still standing. We are all familiar with the Winchester House, and I figured that Browning would've also built a large mansion befitting his (assumed) wealth and societal status. Either he wasn't as wealthy as I thought he would be, or he had far more restrained tastes because while he DID build himself a mansion, it was not one of those 40,000+ square foot Gilded Age masterpieces. It was still a large mansion, but not massive. It is supposedly about 6,700 square feet (although it absolutely does NOT look THAT large) and was built in Ogden, Utah in 1900. Believe it or not, it still stands to this day. So I'm curious if Ian knows anything about Browning's net worth in his later life? I always assumed that Browning was EXTREMELY wealthy just based on not only the number of guns he invented, but the fact that many of them became literally some of the greatest, most used firearms in human history and many of those were adopted by the US military and the militaries of other countries as well. However, there don't seem to be any accurate descriptions of his net worth...at least none that I've been able to find. I'm really curious to know how big of a fortune Browning amassed from being the inventor of some of the greatest firearms in human history
One would suspect he was quite wealthy but maybe did not engage in ostentatious displays of wealth and was evidently somewhat private. He may also have waived some of the royalties for military contracts out of a sense of patriotism - although at that point probably he was already very wealthy from his commercial guns alone.
Please update if you discover anything more. JMB must have made fortunes especially during WWI with his 1911/M1917/BAR contracts and I'd be curious to know how he spent that money in his later years. I know he famously worked in his shop to the day he died but I'm also super curious to know if he was a lavish spender or not.
@@00Helix00 He wasn't a lavish spender, in fact, the man was so humble that it's hard to tell what he did with the money other than providing for his family and travel expenses. When asked why he didn't charge the government millions for the BAR. He responded with, had we been thirty years younger it would be us they would be sending to war. When asked why he served a full two-year mission, he had no regrets. He even named someone else as the greatest arms designer. Honestly aside from Tax and Tithing records, I haven't got a clue what he spent his money on or how he lived. However, his character doesn't scream show off. Thank you.
@@00Helix00 I can't find the reference but have read that the Army put the 1917 and BAR into production prior to having any sort of contract with Browning for the designs. He had them over a barrel, but instructed his negotiator to accept no more than $5 total for both (total, not per gun!) as long as he retained commercial production rights after the war and that his son's infantry division be the first one to field the BAR.
The man could have been wealthy beyond belief, but he wasn’t driven by greed.. read his autobiography written by his grandson.. he essentially gave away the 1886.. he accepted pennies on the dollar for all his WW ll inventions because he was a patriot,, in my opinion... He is the only reason Winchester is what they became.. if he would have taken the 1886 to Remington,, the good lord only knows the wealth he might have obtained.. Winchester took advantage of Browning from the first deal to the last.. I’m sure he was quite wealthy.. Could have been filthy rich , had he shopped that 1886 around
Without John Browning the firearms industry wouldn't have grown the way it did. The man was a genius from working with the lever guns and making a 1887 model lever action shotgun, which he didn't really want to do as he was working on a different shotgun, he contributed to pump actions and semi auto's in the A5 series. The man was a genius when it came to understanding how firearms needed to be reliable and functional and not a single person can deny that he no doubt directly contributed to the advancement of firearms as we know them today.
Not to mention that the Browning .50 M2 armed the entire US Army Air Corps and most of the USNAC. That was the weapon we trusted against Fokkers and Zeros. With all the troubles the US had trying to create a working 20mm autocannon Browning's heavy MG was the best we had for air combat, and it got the job done beautifully for the most part.
The Gunfather is the MAN. I have a 1967 Browning A-5 12 guage, a Remmington 1911, a 1894 Winchester 30-30 and many other Browning designed firearms, and they are the best. Thank you for this video. Jimmy Stang.
Interesting, entertaining, informative, fun ... Yes! It's a Gun Jesus video... :-) Personally, I'd never heard of the 'sour grapes' letter but thanks for making the whole story come to life for us, Ian, you have a knack.
Now Ian , I have the Winchester model 1911, and it’s a perfectly good gun as long as you like lots of recoil and a nagging filling of your about to shoot your self every time you load the first round. Other than those two minor issues the gun is great
For added perspective, after this breakup Browning would go on to develop the 1911 pistol, the BAR, the M2 .50 cal, the .45 ACP cartidge, and .50 BMG (granted, Winchester would help in the development of some of these, but most of the licenses would be under Colt)
Really love this "behind-the-scenes" history. Keep up the great videos, buddy. Maybe do a video on the lawsuit between Springfield and Mauser over the 1903, if you haven't already?
I scooped up an A5 Light Twelve a few years ago for a song. Haven’t shot it yet but I do enjoy looking at it when I go into the safe for other accoutrements
Certain technologies and inventions make other things possible, like the internal combustion engine making automobiles and airplanes possible. It would be common for different inventors, unaware of each other, to be working on essentially the same invention. That time in history was incredible with people like Bell, Tesla, Edison, Ford, and Browning.
Another irony relating to Winchesters hand in the patents for JMBs designs is that Winchesters lawyers didn't just patent the design but also every conceivable work around, and did such a good job that when Winchester later and now on its own tried to design their own shotgun they had a terrible time because of all the air tight and optional patents they. had secured for JMB.
"You'll never hear about Browning again" Meanwhile JM Browning creates weapons that help win 2 world wars, the US Military is still running the M2 .50 cal and is hailed as one of the best weapons designers ever.
I've been watching your videos for awhile and never commented, and just wanted to say I'm not a gun owner but I support the right to own guns and I love your videos I'm huge military history buff and I love content like this. In history it's always the little things in the background that determine the outcomes and it's knowing the little things that fascinate me
This is one of the best Video I ever watch ,I knew a bitof the Story but know I'm sure ,John Moses Browning was a genus ,in Gun Making, my favourite gun is a Browning thank you .
I grew up next door to a man named Dale Browning.... Yes, that family. What a wonderful break up ! My neighbor was a wealth of knowledge. As a teenager, I could listen to my neighbor for hours.
Completely distilled as you stated - Browning quoted them a ridiculous price that he knew Winchester wouldn't accept" and then " it was actually Browning who broke the deal" I have no time for either company but I respect the fact that Winchester basically told him enough is enough and to PO even after the lawyers did the right thing by Browning and his patents. As the Judge always says there are two sides to every story and sorting bias out in these forums is a task doomed to fail. Good luck with transposing modern day values on a 120 years old deal.
Browning knew he had a revolutionary design with the Auto-5. He anticipated there would be many sales and he wanted to make sure he was adequately compensated for his work. That's why he demanded royalty based payments. FN, Remington and Savage license-built the design and enjoyed great success with it. As for Remington, they were very much interested in the Auto-5 and agreed to Browning's terms. He traveled to Ilion, NY and while waiting in the outer office, Remington's chairman, Marcellus Hartley, suffered a massive heart attack and died. The resulting turmoil at Remington delayed negotiations and that's when Browning went to FN. Remington eventually returned to the table and license built it as the Model 11.
A very similar story: A famous publishing company in London appoints a new commissioning editor, and in a locked desk drawer the new man finds a dusty manuscript with the words "this is just a silly story about rabbits!" scrawled on the front page in his predecessor's handwriting. He then discovers that he is holding the first submitted MS of "Watership Down" by Richard Adams.
Kind of but not really. Winchester had already "signed" John Browning and his work was already popular. They just didn't want to give him a pay increase essentially. This is more like Paul McCartney underbidding on the Beatles catalog and thus losing out because he didn't think it was worth that much.
What record companies tend to do much more often, is identify and sign single artists or bands with tremendous potential, and then bully them into changing all of the things which could have made them a success. The talent either has to get lucky with the people who sign them (which the Beatles did), or do what Kate Rusby and her family did, which was create a record label of their own with an image and values which exactly matched what she was prepared to do. In her case it worked, but the odds were somewhat against this.
The Godfather: "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse."
The Gunfather (John Moses Browning): "I'll make him an offer he must refuse."
Why didn't you go for "... can't accept"?
(genuine linguistics/curiosity question)
@@MrNicoJac I considered that but went for maximum similarity in sound and syllable count.
@@darthhodges
A fair decision, thanks for the reply! :)
You hear the one about the Chinese Godfather??
..he made them an offer they couldn't understand.
Winchester sounds like they're in denial with the letter; "You didn't break up with me, I broke up with you!"
“You’ll miss me but I’ll be fine without you!”
You have to reassure them to keep things together. From their viewpoint it makes sense.
Would you write: "Dear Distributors, we are royally screwed! John Browning is gone, so you better sell different guns from now on."
@@onpsxmember yes but they might have overdone it a bit, it sounds insecure
It sounds like pretty standard corporate PR speak.
@@88porpoise Yup. Straight out of a bull's bum.
Winchester: you have to be crazy to want royalties
Remington: sorry we are currently having a heart attack
FN: we will pay you royalties in USD, francs, beer, waffles or any combination of the four.
FN's offer sounds imminently more reasonable.
Chocolate, don't forget Belgium chocolate.
@@kevinoliver3083Homer in the land of chocolate.
"Obscene and unprintable."
One has to wonder how many details of history are lost due to this.
A shitload.
Oh, I guess that won't get printed either.
The most worthwhile people are generally unknown.
@@nicknumber1512 Heh.
Must be hell for people trying to accurately research historical female dress. So many primary source photographs never printed or otherwise lost because they showed a hint of ankle.
And which *today* would not be too much of an issue with publishing...
"This is perhaps the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, maybe ever"
Could this deal get any worse?
Brexit?
@@donaldasayers Besp-in.
Not for FN or Colt
Selling Manhattan for, supposedly, sixty guilders' worth of goods must be pretty high on that list.
It's amazing to think that all of this happened before such iconic firearms as the 1911 and the BAR. It must have been hard to watch the Brownings' incredible success after parting ways with them.
Winchester wasn’t in the military arms business that big
@@anotherroady6234 No, they certainly were not. But they still had to watch more of Browning's designs become huge successes.
@@anotherroady6234 They weren't but I bet you dollars to doughnuts that wasn't for a lack of trying.
Presenting those million mark Model 94's to presidents must have been a sharp twist of the knife too.
When JMB was a young man, tinkering in his father's gun shop in the late 1870s he made a completely functional semiautomatic version of Winchesters famous 1873 lever action. I hear that gun is in possession of a descendent of one of his father's shop workers, who John had given it to at the time, and that it is still works to this day.
Those two white books are giving Ian bunny ears lol
🤣
*laughing my guts out* 😹
UwU
Now i cant unsee it
@@wonder-bred 😆😆😆
4:15 can you IMAGINE if you went for a job interview and you got turned away because your future boss just straight up died? I'd take that personally, as an omen.
Sounds like he may have came to the same conclusion.
@@travisinthetrunk Dodged the apocalypse on that one.
I applied for a job, got accepted, showed up for work on the first day just to find out my old future boss was gone, there's now a new one and he doesn't care about the deal. I had nothing on paper (I was reasobably expecting I will sign the contract on my first day, afterall I was like 23 years old and it was very entry level thing), so I went home :P
My response would be "I understand that you have a new opening in management."
Secretary: "Sir, there is a John Browning here to see you."
Remington executive: visible panic " how's my hair! Is my tie straight?!?"
Secretary: "sir you need to calm down it's just a interview."
Remington executive: *dies*
Ian never fails to convince me he'd have been just as good a teacher as a weapons expert. Love these mini documentary videos!
It's that ability to educate that makes him so good.
I was never into guns, but I have stayed here for 6-7 years because of Ian's narrative and engineering details. That should speak volumes about his skill #praisegunjesus ;)
He's both (though not professionally). I would love to take a college level history class taught by him.
@@leszekkadelski9569 I like guns but I don't shoot and I don't own one, but I stay for the same reasons as you. The engineering is what I'm interested in and he presents it in such an understanding way.
Ian it´s a teacher and Internet his lecture hall
"We'll be better off without them"
Cue my favorite John Wayne quote from Rio Bravo. "We're gonna remember you said that!"
Elmore Leonard's first book that got made into a movie.
☝️☝️ Love this quote.
@@dbmail545 Horsecrap. Thanks anyway, Mr Helper but Elmore Leonard's first novel was The Bounty Hunters from 1953. The synopsis is "David Flynn is a legend in the rugged Arizona Territory-a U.S. cavalry-turned-army scout-and the only man alive who can bring in the fierce Mimbre Apache called Soldado Viejo. But for David Flynn, tracking down an elusive Indian with a price on his head south of the border is a dangerous business…especially when a cunning outlaw and a murderous bounty hunter dog his path. Now Flynn’s riding hard for trouble on a bloody trail of treachery and slaughter in a lawless land where a man’s got to watch his back against friend and enemy, red man and white man alike. And if he’s Flynn-on the deadliest mission of his career-that means a one-way trip into a sultry desert hell…where the hunter is about to become the hunted…and where one man’s struggle for justice has just erupted in the battle of his life…"
Sounds just like Rio Bravo to me.
The story for Rio Bravo was credited to "B.H. McCampbell." This was actually Hawks' eldest daughter, Barbara Hawks McCampbell (McCampbell being her married name). Her contribution was the idea of using dynamite in the final shootout.
@@FIREBRAND38 sorry that you can't read. "The first Elmore Leonard novel that GOT MADE INTO A MOVIE" from Elmore's interview by Terry Gross.
Good quote - also I love the Tarkus avatar!
Whenever you hear a corporate exec say “we’ll be better off for it”….
@@KuK137 Someone's made some bad business decisions.
It's corporate code for "we screwed up & we're all doomed!"
@@KuK137 Apparently you're not as well-informed as you like to think you are, considering you used Microsoft as an example and they have a very.... how shall we say, "colorful" (if not questionable) business history. The early days of personal computers were the electronics equivalent of The Great War: Far more ugly than most people nowadays realize.
Well what was he going to say, "jeez guys I really screwed up there you better pull out your investment now."
@@KuK137 Yeah let's use the exceptions that prove the rule as examples to not prove the rule.... Wait.... Oh it's almost like that kind of success is very rare and that risky decisions backfire far more often than they succeed. At the end of the day luck and being at the right place at the right time had more to do with those successes than any bold business strategy did.
Reminds me of the Chicago Bulls talking about Michael Jordan, and saying the organisation was more important
Or Patriots coaches and Tom Brady
Oilers and Gretzky
Na he got it with the Bulls and Jordan
Chicago Bulls? Never heard of them. 😏
Or cavs owner Dan Gilbert’s letter to Lebron in comic sans
“You’ll never hear about Browning again”
Meanwhile, ~118 years later, Browning is hailed as one of the greatest firearms designers in history.
I think the quantity of his designs combined with the quality of said designs officially puts him in GOAT status.
and now winchester is best known for making shitty ammo.
Arguably *THE* greatest firearm designer in history
Try finding Thomas Bennett on Wikipedia....lots of them, but not this one....
@@theguy9208, right, that’s all that Winchester is, or ever will be, known for. Browning Arms who?
When you have a golden goose, you'd do better to put up with it's honking every now and then
Great comment.
@@1anthonybrowning A Browning would like this! XD
By all accounts JMB wasn't even doing that much Honking
@@TheFanatical1 Yep, sounds like he was just asking for pretty standard stuff, stuff he was already getting from everybody else he worked with. Winchester just decided to be obstinate.
FN: "sour grapes make the sweetest and most desirable wines in the right hands"
Interesting that a busy man like Browning apparently travelled frequently back and forth from America to Belgium. Remember this is the era before air travel, transatlantic travel meant lengthy trips on steamships.
A lot of time traveling from Utah to the East Coast within the US as well. That was likely done mostly done by rail.
In 1900, ocean liners would routinely cross the Atlantic in about 5 days.
About two weeks from NY to Europe. Another week plus from Utah to NY by rail.
Yes, but think of what can be accomplished in a quiet suite in ship or rail car without the distractions of wife and kids.
I loved my A-5. Another firearm I wish I had never sold. My dad bought it at a garage sale in Denver. The guy who sold it said the barrel was bulged. My dad bought it for $2.50 as a wall hanger. My dad had it on the rifle rack for 2 years when I started to look at it. I took it to work to have one if the gunsmiths to look at it and the silent owner who really only plays in the gunsmiths shop. He asked me what was wrong with it. I told him what the guy that sold it to us said and he looked at me all puzzled. 10 minutes later we were elbow deep into it. The barrel was perfect for being made in 1926. Turns out that the bolt block was worn out. We ordered a new one from Brownells. I can't tell you how many times Brownells has saved my bacon. Well I got my first gunsmithing project right in front of me. When we took it apart the block that is at the end of the bolt pushes up and locks a square 3/4 if a inch or so up into the rear tang of the barrel into a square hole and it pivots on a 1/4 curved outset ridge to act like a really good hinge. It's the best way I can put it. I had to machine the curved ridge so it would move smoothly in the slot and lock up in the barrel. For most gunsmiths this would have 5aken a hour with setup. Me not that fast. I spent about 8 1/2 hours machining it on equipment that was as old as I am. All 5 of the gunsmiths helped me but the owner was in control. I def everything he asked and when everything was said and done I fired line it was brand new. Between my dad and I we had less then $45.00 in it including flitz and Emory cloth. But I did it. I made the shotgun run like a champ. After that everytime a firearm was finished I would take it on the range and test fire it 5 rounds and I would put the brass and the target in the box. Sometimes I would write a note on the target for the owner. That was in 1998. Since then I lived at the gunsmiths shop helping anywhere they needed. I was lucky enough to have their trust and the ability to work on my own firearms whenever I wanted.i never had the time to take gunsmithing classes at the gunsmithing academy that was out in Lakewood Colorado. It seems to be one of the better well known gunsmithing schools. I still live by their advice. Never work on a firearm that isn't mine. That firearm that I say I will look at it my be a family herloom that can't be replaced.i know enough to be dangerous. I never work on a firearm without a real gunsmith president. I don't want to hurt anyone. If you don't know ask. If you have no one to ask then get professional help. You will save in the end and you won't lose sleep. Happy Safe Shooting 🇺🇸💪.
What made you sell it?
@@Galahad_Du_Lac my dad did. It was his
Good stuff. My A5 is from 1928 and runs like new. Looks rough though.
The lawyers did such a good job for themselves, that they couldnt undo what they'd done when the bosses changed their minds?
Been there, done that 🤣
Good lawyers a like guns. Don't shoot something unless you want it shot. Do send a good lawyer after something unless you want it incredibly lawyered.
Well it appears that you can`t build a fruitfull endeavour, after burning the bridge, scorching the earth, salting the land, and then going like ... yoo we good, right - you still design stuff for us for pennies, while we make big bang, yeah?
Shocking, must have been an absolutly harrowing experience for the top brass back then :P Added to that ... the lawyers really did their jobs at least
Ian's reaction to "the locking features only."
Right? How dare they?
Boggles the mind that line. That's like saying he only designed the ballpoint and ink for our new pen.
"He only supplied us the heart of the rifle, we provided everything else (by taking those features from our previous rifles)."
I loved that moment. He didn't even need to say a word.
"Only the components that are legally defined as being the entirety of the firearm."
Bought Gorenstein’s book after your review and almost finished reading it. Well worth the money and an enjoyable reading, thanks Ian!
Already did. Well worth it.
Great book. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in firearms history.
I bought it too after he did a review on it. Haven't had a chance to read it yet though, as I've already got a pile of books I need to get through as-is. Still glad I got it for my library.
Breaking up with a "dear John Browning" letter?
ha!
No shotgun wedding?
😂
Oh how droll!!
Benett must have rolled in his grave the day it was announced Winchester was being bought by the Browning company.
I think with all the continuous issues Winchester had over the years, that corpse has been In a continuous alligator death roll
@@wesleygay8918 Tape a permanent magnet to that man, wrap his coffin in coils, and we'll power the tri-state area
FN owns Browning and Winchester.
@@TexanUSMC8089 indeed they do , now. This completes the Divine Comedy of firearms
Ordered the book and was impatient enough to order it on Kindle as well. Apparently, FN had their doubts about the Auto-5 as well. Not so much doubt about the design as much as FN was not heavily into sporting arms at the time. This attitude had changed by the time JMB designed the Superposed shotgun, undoubtedly due to the commercial success of the Auto-5.
It’s possible that my father purchased a LNIB Belgian made Browning Sweet 16 sometime during the 1960s… sometimes a mechanism is beautiful in form, function and design.
Love my auto 5. Bought it with a broken firing pin. Gave the serial number to Browning, they sent me a new one free and told me it was made in 1930. Shoots great still
John browning would be proud 🥹
The Sino-Soviet split of the US gun manufacturing environment.
Or the equivalent of the Red Sox trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees.
Comment for support! Thanks Ian, please keep up the work.
We've had a photo copy of that letter at the info desk for years. I love how you came to the same conclusion about Winchester not wanting the Auto 5 competing with the 97 that I came to myself a few years back.
Are you telling me Tales Of The Gun wasn't entirely accurate? Say it isn't so.
pardon me sir , where is Browning ? upstairs where you send me was only a kid (i believe thats the one?)
A History Channel documentary might be inaccurate?! Surely you jest sir?
😁😃😆😆😀😁
The Guns of John Browning is an easy, very informative, read.
Highly recommend.
When you read the part about Browning getting the loser end of the deal, I immediately thought about the .50 Winchester Machine Gun caliber, the Winchester Automatic Rifle in WWII, the M1911 pistol, the Winchester M2 machine gun........
Oh wait, those were all designed by John Browning.
In the defence of Winchester, none of those guns were extant in 1903
@@TheFanatical1 That is the point...Winchester would never be able to invent those guns....they might engineer them to be manufactured better then JMB sketchy drawings but they would NEVER invent new guns that establish their own culture and are still purchased 100 years later.
JMB had the vision to invent new guns and ammo to solve problems that had not been solved before. Winchester was just a manufacturing and sales company.
I have an 1954 BELGIUM Browning A-5 "Sweet Sixteen" Gauge that my father had when he was just a wee lad. It had a Cutt's Compensator installed and came with a host of gaudy screw in chokes. I wouldn't even DREAM of parting with that thing. Best duck gun... EVER!!!
" we will do better without them then they without us." famous last words
In the breakup, Bennett kept Browning's two toy poodles and his mother's silverware set. Browning never forgave him for that. He loved those dogs and the only reason he didn't go all John Wick on Bennett was his strict religious background.
Lolwut? Why would he have been holding his two puppers n mum's silverware in the first place? Unless they were roommates, that would be an odd happenstance. If they were, that'd both make it a dock move and kind of understandable.
Would anyone else care to explain the joke? It's very late and I'm quite tired.
@@sixstringedthing Just goofing on the "breakup" theme of the vid. You know, the ex-wife keeps your dog just to piss you off, etc.
From what I remember from the book-which I bought on your recommendation-Matthew was the business guy and felt Browning was getting shafted by the one shot payment and pushed JMB towards the split. Also, Winchester supposedly was buying all the patents just so they would not worry about having to compete if he sold something to a different company, e.g. Colt, and during this time period JMB had invented an exceptionally large number of designs which increased the number of “non-viable” patents Winchester was buying, and they were not happy with that, either.
This is where I usually say " well it was your idea, genius!"
Winchester backed themselves into that corner, not JMB. They knew he worked with other companies, and had to be aware of how they paid him. Thinking their status quo would be sustainable long-term was very shortsighted.
Sure JMB made a prolific amount of guns at that time that were fringe or only vaguely marketable, but firearms and manufacturing technology were exploding at that time and such is the price of staying on the "tip of the spear"
Patent trolling: literally older than sliced bread
In Finland, we used to call all handguns 'prouninki' after John Moses Browning. My grandfather brought along a Colt revolver when he returned from America. He always referred to it as his prouninki. Likewise, my uncle brought back a Soviet Nagant from the front. Another prouninki.
@@vksasdgaming9472 In French, the T in Nagant is silent. The Russians copied that and we did, too, so it became 'nakani' or 'nakaani'.
@@bocefusmurica4340 It's a phenomenon that is not limited to firearms. Grab a Kleenex(!) and dry your tears.
This video reminds me the video about history of Colt-company. I really enjoyed it and I wish Ian would do similar videos about Winchester, Remington, FN and other major (and why not minor) companies.
Ian, I think this was your best video *ever!* And thanks to you, I just ordered the book on your right... THANK you, and stay well!
ETA: I will place a printout of that letter in the book when it arrives!!
Didn't even know about all of this, thanks for the story time Ian
2:33 "they supplied us with the locking lugs only" you mean the most important part of every gun design? The bit that makes it not explode.
I'd love to see an in depth biography of Edwin Pugsley done. From what I understand, the man was the driving force behind getting Browning to work with Winchester during World War I.
The freedom that Browning got from that break with Winchester opened the door for the most productive time in John Browning's history and sealed him into the annals of early 20th Century Firearm Design whereupon nearly every other successful handgun, shotgun and machine gun owes debts to a Browning designs.
Thanks for the history lesson, Ian. I, sometimes think it's the best part of this channel.
Thankful for your content on all things guns! Your one of the best sources of info and we're lucky to have you and your channel!
If I ever payed this attention in school ….
Thank you for taking the time to share this fantastic story!
This book was definitely worth the buy, thanks for the review.
Winchester couldn’t shine John Moses Brownings shoes. JMB was the most prolific ahead of his time gun inventor in the history of the universe. Most well known gun inventors like Glock, Luger, Thompson, ect. we’re fortunate to invent one gun. Browning invented dozens of popular and successful weapons. Some our modern military still uses today. The 1911 45acp alone would have made Browning a legend.
"We don't need Browning, just wait until 1964 when some really great designs of ours hit the market."
LOL
Thank you Ian! I just knew the version you spoke of, ending with JMB in the Remington CEO's waiting room, and the CEO being wheeled out on a gurney, and not coming down for breakfast the next day, etc. Winchester's lawyers evidently did their job very well, to the eventual detriment of their client. LOL The big W made a lot of cabbage with JMB, and just imagine if they had given him what he asked for... FN would still be chugging along, doing their thing(s), The Winchester Auto-5 would be a smash hit, and there would never be a Remington Model 11, 1100, etc. Hard to even imagine. Thanx again Ian!
A great video. There have been several versions of 'what happened' between Browning and Winchester. Personalities were clearly a factor...
Love to hear the history as much as seeing the firearms, so I appreciate you making content like this. Also thanks to the Cody Arm Museum for their graciousness.
Great story Ian I had never heard of this before. Thank you for telling us all about it.
Can you imagine if the Commandant of the U.S. Arsenal at Springfield wrote a similar letter in the 1920’s explaining his reason for firing John C. Garand?
Can you imagine if the small arms ordnance board had written a similar letter in the 1940s about Col. R Studler?
I fell out of my chair at that one.
@@aaronleverton4221 that would have been a huge improvement. Best thing that could have happened to small arms development in the 1950s.
Would prefer a letter circa 1910 explaining the decision to axe Crozier as head of Ordinance Branch if we're looking for alt histories
@@ModalCuchulainn why not a letter agreeing to do that in like 1890 so the krag and 1903 don't happen and we adopt like Mauser 98's and the maxim?
I've never been able to figure out how wealthy John Browning actually was. In addition to being a massive fan of the 1911, and therefore a massive fan of John Browning, I'm also a massive fan of Gilded Age mansions. I'm kinda crazy about them. Being a big fan of Browning, who was alive and invented all of his famous firearms during the heart of the "Glided Age", I figured that he probably had a huge Gilded Age mansion and I wanted to see what it looked like or if it was still standing. We are all familiar with the Winchester House, and I figured that Browning would've also built a large mansion befitting his (assumed) wealth and societal status.
Either he wasn't as wealthy as I thought he would be, or he had far more restrained tastes because while he DID build himself a mansion, it was not one of those 40,000+ square foot Gilded Age masterpieces. It was still a large mansion, but not massive. It is supposedly about 6,700 square feet (although it absolutely does NOT look THAT large) and was built in Ogden, Utah in 1900. Believe it or not, it still stands to this day.
So I'm curious if Ian knows anything about Browning's net worth in his later life? I always assumed that Browning was EXTREMELY wealthy just based on not only the number of guns he invented, but the fact that many of them became literally some of the greatest, most used firearms in human history and many of those were adopted by the US military and the militaries of other countries as well. However, there don't seem to be any accurate descriptions of his net worth...at least none that I've been able to find. I'm really curious to know how big of a fortune Browning amassed from being the inventor of some of the greatest firearms in human history
One would suspect he was quite wealthy but maybe did not engage in ostentatious displays of wealth and was evidently somewhat private. He may also have waived some of the royalties for military contracts out of a sense of patriotism - although at that point probably he was already very wealthy from his commercial guns alone.
Please update if you discover anything more. JMB must have made fortunes especially during WWI with his 1911/M1917/BAR contracts and I'd be curious to know how he spent that money in his later years. I know he famously worked in his shop to the day he died but I'm also super curious to know if he was a lavish spender or not.
@@00Helix00 He wasn't a lavish spender, in fact, the man was so humble that it's hard to tell what he did with the money other than providing for his family and travel expenses.
When asked why he didn't charge the government millions for the BAR. He responded with, had we been thirty years younger it would be us they would be sending to war.
When asked why he served a full two-year mission, he had no regrets.
He even named someone else as the greatest arms designer.
Honestly aside from Tax and Tithing records, I haven't got a clue what he spent his money on or how he lived. However, his character doesn't scream show off.
Thank you.
@@00Helix00 I can't find the reference but have read that the Army put the 1917 and BAR into production prior to having any sort of contract with Browning for the designs. He had them over a barrel, but instructed his negotiator to accept no more than $5 total for both (total, not per gun!) as long as he retained commercial production rights after the war and that his son's infantry division be the first one to field the BAR.
The man could have been wealthy beyond belief, but he wasn’t driven by greed.. read his autobiography written by his grandson.. he essentially gave away the 1886.. he accepted pennies on the dollar for all his WW ll inventions because he was a patriot,, in my opinion... He is the only reason Winchester is what they became.. if he would have taken the 1886 to Remington,, the good lord only knows the wealth he might have obtained.. Winchester took advantage of Browning from the first deal to the last.. I’m sure he was quite wealthy.. Could have been filthy rich , had he shopped that 1886 around
It's videos like this which are the icing on the cake which is Forgotten Weapons.
Much appreciated & very informative.
Without John Browning the firearms industry wouldn't have grown the way it did. The man was a genius from working with the lever guns and making a 1887 model lever action shotgun, which he didn't really want to do as he was working on a different shotgun, he contributed to pump actions and semi auto's in the A5 series. The man was a genius when it came to understanding how firearms needed to be reliable and functional and not a single person can deny that he no doubt directly contributed to the advancement of firearms as we know them today.
Not to mention that the Browning .50 M2 armed the entire US Army Air Corps and most of the USNAC. That was the weapon we trusted against Fokkers and Zeros. With all the troubles the US had trying to create a working 20mm autocannon Browning's heavy MG was the best we had for air combat, and it got the job done beautifully for the most part.
Thanks Ian. One of the fascinating things about History is the
"Yes. They really did that."
type of thing..
.
The Gunfather is the MAN. I have a 1967 Browning A-5 12 guage, a Remmington 1911, a 1894 Winchester 30-30 and many other Browning designed firearms, and they are the best. Thank you for this
video. Jimmy Stang.
Interesting, entertaining, informative, fun ... Yes! It's a Gun Jesus video... :-)
Personally, I'd never heard of the 'sour grapes' letter but thanks for making the whole story come to life for us, Ian, you have a knack.
Always great to see a new informative video Ian keep up the great work!
I feel like this was one last attempt at Winchester asserting who rules BarterTown...and we all know how that ended
More of these kinds of videos Ian! This was great.
Now Ian , I have the Winchester model 1911, and it’s a perfectly good gun as long as you like lots of recoil and a nagging filling of your about to shoot your self every time you load the first round. Other than those two minor issues the gun is great
For added perspective, after this breakup Browning would go on to develop the 1911 pistol, the BAR, the M2 .50 cal, the .45 ACP cartidge, and .50 BMG (granted, Winchester would help in the development of some of these, but most of the licenses would be under Colt)
Great story! Such a huge effect on history as well. Thanks Ian.
God bless all here.
I have always been a Browning fan . Thank you for more insight
Really love this "behind-the-scenes" history. Keep up the great videos, buddy. Maybe do a video on the lawsuit between Springfield and Mauser over the 1903, if you haven't already?
I scooped up an A5 Light Twelve a few years ago for a song. Haven’t shot it yet but I do enjoy looking at it when I go into the safe for other accoutrements
I am not a big gun enthusiast. But never the less I enjoy listening to what you have to say.
Without Browning, Winchester since then went into decline with the quality of its products. Smooth move, Bennett!
"Let off some steam, Bennett"
Decline never came to Winchester until 1964, then it declined.
Except for their shotguns, browning is not exactly know for their fantastic guns today
I can't remember, does the b in .50 BMG stand for browning or Bennet?
Hopefully you will do more of this kind of contents
Certain technologies and inventions make other things possible, like the internal combustion engine making automobiles and airplanes possible. It would be common for different inventors, unaware of each other, to be working on essentially the same invention. That time in history was incredible with people like Bell, Tesla, Edison, Ford, and Browning.
Nicely told story. I also agree that the new biography on my great grandfather is first rate. Yes I can attest that the Browning’s did just fine :-)
Remington, Colt and FN must be laughing all the way to the bank.
Loved the video. Definitely should do more content like this.
Another irony relating to Winchesters hand in the patents for JMBs designs is that Winchesters lawyers didn't just patent the design but also every conceivable work around, and did such a good job that when Winchester later and now on its own tried to design their own shotgun they had a terrible time because of all the air tight and optional patents they. had secured for JMB.
I was just at the Cody Firearms Museum and saw it there. Awesome summer vacation with my son.
I just bought that book a couple weeks ago and can affirm that if you are interested in the life of John Browning it is an amazing read
This kind of sounds like Blockbuster video not buying Netflix during the 2000's.
Just finished this book. It was really quite good!
"You'll never hear about Browning again"
Meanwhile JM Browning creates weapons that help win 2 world wars, the US Military is still running the M2 .50 cal and is hailed as one of the best weapons designers ever.
Just imagine what he could have done with the recent advances in metallurgy.
Great stuff Ian, great stuff!
I had no idea that browning had a toggle locking shotgun design. Very interesting
Just assume browning made one of everything....it wouldn't be far off
Somehow, I think these are my favorite type of Forgotten Weapons videos
This was a fantastic lesson thank you Ian.
The Guns of John Moses Browning is an extremely well written book and id highly recommend it.
I've been watching your videos for awhile and never commented, and just wanted to say I'm not a gun owner but I support the right to own guns and I love your videos I'm huge military history buff and I love content like this. In history it's always the little things in the background that determine the outcomes and it's knowing the little things that fascinate me
This is one of the best Video I ever watch ,I knew a bitof the Story but know I'm sure ,John Moses Browning was a genus ,in Gun Making, my favourite gun is a Browning thank you .
Ian knows and loves his iron, except when it comes to his shirts. /jk love your channel!
I grew up next door to a man named Dale Browning.... Yes, that family. What a wonderful break up ! My neighbor was a wealth of knowledge. As a teenager, I could listen to my neighbor for hours.
I actually have another descendant of his in my neighborhood. They weren't really into the guns side of things though.
Completely distilled as you stated - Browning quoted them a ridiculous price that he knew Winchester wouldn't accept" and then " it was actually Browning who broke the deal" I have no time for either company but I respect the fact that Winchester basically told him enough is enough and to PO even after the lawyers did the right thing by Browning and his patents. As the Judge always says there are two sides to every story and sorting bias out in these forums is a task doomed to fail. Good luck with transposing modern day values on a 120 years old deal.
Very interesting history, as FN-Browning A5 owner and Star Super B lover... i stand by John Moses Browning.
Another excellent back story, thanks Ian.
Very interesting !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the knowledge about Winchester Breaking up with John M, Browning, Gun Jesus.
I got the book on audible and finished it in one day of work, really recommend
Over the years I've had a rem model 11 and a Belgian auto 5, both are guns I wish I had kept to this day, those and my Browning bps 3 1/2" pump.
If I had ever met John Moses Browning, I'd probably have a heart attack too! 🤣🤣
Browning knew he had a revolutionary design with the Auto-5. He anticipated there would be many sales and he wanted to make sure he was adequately compensated for his work. That's why he demanded royalty based payments. FN, Remington and Savage license-built the design and enjoyed great success with it.
As for Remington, they were very much interested in the Auto-5 and agreed to Browning's terms. He traveled to Ilion, NY and while waiting in the outer office, Remington's chairman, Marcellus Hartley, suffered a massive heart attack and died. The resulting turmoil at Remington delayed negotiations and that's when Browning went to FN. Remington eventually returned to the table and license built it as the Model 11.
“The locking features only” you mean the thing that keeps it from blowing up in the user’s face.
Hey, Winchester engineers got the ONE moving part in the magazine to work properly.
Thinking they would be better off with out John Browning is a bit like not signing the Beatles becauase you think they wont be popular.
A very similar story: A famous publishing company in London appoints a new commissioning editor, and in a locked desk drawer the new man finds a dusty manuscript with the words "this is just a silly story about rabbits!" scrawled on the front page in his predecessor's handwriting. He then discovers that he is holding the first submitted MS of "Watership Down" by Richard Adams.
Kind of but not really. Winchester had already "signed" John Browning and his work was already popular. They just didn't want to give him a pay increase essentially. This is more like Paul McCartney underbidding on the Beatles catalog and thus losing out because he didn't think it was worth that much.
What record companies tend to do much more often, is identify and sign single artists or bands with tremendous potential, and then bully them into changing all of the things which could have made them a success. The talent either has to get lucky with the people who sign them (which the Beatles did), or do what Kate Rusby and her family did, which was create a record label of their own with an image and values which exactly matched what she was prepared to do. In her case it worked, but the odds were somewhat against this.