How good is Gambesons? (New AoE2 tech)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ค. 2024
- Here's a look into the new barracks tech "Gambesons". How big of a deal is +1 pierce armor for the militia line?
0:45 Which civilizations get it?
1:10 Current disadvantages of swordsmen
2:20 CASTLE AGE
2:25 vs Crossbows/Town Centers
3:22 vs Elite Skirmishers
4:45 vs Cavalry Archers
5:20 vs Scorpions
5:50 vs Slingers
7:00 IMPERIAL AGE
7:25 Anti-trash
8:25 Infantry unique units
9:20 Wrap up
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Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsound.com
Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition - เกม
I love how you can tell there will be a lot of math in this video just by how happy SotL's voice is during intro
I wish maths loved me as much as SOTL loves them
That's the reason we love him!
Literally nothing compares to SotL's analyses. All the pros may give specific insight from their perspective but they tend to ramble a lot, too and not one of them does these clean videos with explanations, visually appealing presentation along with complementary gameplay footage in the background. We're really lucky to have SotL as a content creator in the AoE2 community!
There's also Ornlu and T-west, if you haven't seen them anyway.
Ornlu for a slow grinding analisis with lots of empiric testing.
T-West for in depth analsis (almost reaching code level) at all of the ingame mechanics.
This is true, but what the pros offer is some intuitive input about important timing windows that play into the meta and whether or not these units (improved directly or buffed in some other way) will fit into the current timings or even new ones will appear based on the changes.
Couldn't say it better
I'd love to see SOTL being caster in a pro tournament
No shade on Hera but I just cannot watch his videos. He moves (and talks) too fast for my brain
This is a nice step in the right direction, but I'd like to see Gambesons moved to Feudal and a new tech, Gambedads (another +1 Pierce Armor), added to Castle.
11
Boooooo
I love it. 😂
Gambegrandads in imp
For a second I thought "That's a weird name for an armour but I guess maybe... wait a minute... it's a dad dad joke!"
I chuckled for 5 seconds
I'm a bit sad that Malians didn't get it. It would be too funny to see Malian militia with +4 Pierce armor
Malian huskarl lol
@@kevinflaherty1Champskarls is name that is used about their champion :D
Poor Malians, they get worse with every patch.
@@bannedcommander2932 they get huge buffs to compensate next patch
@@bannedcommander2932 They are getting a massive economic buff. Effectively 15% faster gold mining plus villagers carry 15% more gold plus 15% longer lasting gold mines. Way better than free gold mining techs ever was.
Alongside their Unique Unit getting a significant health buff and the castle unique tech getting a minor buff.
I love that long swords and bezerks now have totally different roles for vikings:mainline and raiders respectively
That's amazing.
i think at lower elo this might actually impact Teutons quite a bit, suddenly the swordsman line is a better all-round unit
This is actually a Teuton dream! Their cavalry already lack the extra mobility of husbandry, and their cheaper farms make building a larger food eco so much more viable in feudal and castle age.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 All to add to the stereotypical Teuton death march: a slow, but heavily armored army that will mess you up once it gets in close.
@@CyberDrewan like that scene in Monty python and thr holy grail, ypu know the one.
I hope he makes a video how this changed Teutons. But i guess chances are slim. First new DLS is priority one.
You are a big reason for the AoE2 Community to keep growing. Thanks!
Goat
18€
@@G91YS how much did you contribute?
@@dominikovesny907 just converting
@@dominikovesny907 how much did YOU contribute? the goat can talk for himself, he's much cooler than you
I like this tech, the champion has never felt like an actual champion before.
I, for one, welcome our new Celt, Slav, Viking, Burmese, and Japanese overlords
While goths are crying in the corner.
@@drschwandi3687 crying in numbers
We will be merciful.
@@drschwandi3687 That's what they deserve for sacking Rome!
Came here for Slav rep
About time the most wildly used armour in human history was introduced. :D
People underestimate the protective value of layered and quilted fabric.
And just over half the civs don't get it! (Obviously some is for balance reasons).
takes in age of empires are so weird. half of the time it feels like I'm researching stuff my units actually use already.
@@PrimordialNightmare Meanwhile, "Iron Casting" gives melee units an attack boost, despite the fact that cast iron is too brittle to be practical for making melee weapons.
@@PrimordialNightmare like fletching... they probably shot toothpicks before :D
From this analysis I feel gambesons is a dream come true from balancing perspective.
A technology that would be researched sometimes, that is not necessary by any means but that adds to the diversity of the game tactics.
Gambesons being completely ineffective against hand cannoneers and conqs is historically apropos.
I learned a new word today. Thanks educated stranger. Your comment is very apropos to my learning
Actually it giving pierce armor is weird cause Gambison was usually best against melee weapons.
@@youcanthandlethetruth5433 go watch Django Unchained as well, the only movie I can recall that uses this word apropos
@@MrMarinus18 Gambeson was usually layered, and made from flax which is fairly tough. it was cheaper than leather, too, cheaper to grow flax than raise cattle, and thus used far more widely.
down with leather armor in medieval games
Though gambesons were most commonly used BY archers and they don't provide much protection against arrows but against swords. Linnen fairly easy to pierce but not easy to cut through.
This patch will give us so many interesting SOTL videos!
As an infantry player and Goth main, I understand their logic from leaving it out of the Gothic tech tree. Huskarls already give the Goths their pierce unit counter, and +1 pierce armor on their champions would be either overpowered, or, more likely, completely redundant in comparison. I'm interested that Celts, Aztecs, and Japanese all have access to this tech though - really a nice boost for three civilisations that do infantry very well already.
I can't wait to see Forced Levy Two-Handed Swordsman spam with Gambesons. It was already one of my favorite tactics in the game and it just got way stronger against a lot of civs. :D
Can we just have Gambesons affect all infantry units? Asking for a teutonic friend.
I suggest you create a thread in the official forums
Idk a tutonic friend of mine would be pleased if the Deutschritter gets another movement speed buff in addition
They probably wouldn't want it to apply to the spear line
@@tomeinsmann8236 maybe all Infanterie but not spearline and egal warrior
After seeing this explanation I get the feeling that we are still far from done redefining a more appealing niche for infantry.
Viking militia line might just be the toughest now? I am sure they can take 2+ castle firings now. as the only militia line.
Honestly, I would like a separation of niche melee units, akin to steppe lancer....
Say 2-h swordsman are the high damage melee and sword + shield infantry are missile resistant damage sponges.
Problem is that whit full plate ( which champions have ) you have high damage and can absorb misslie fire. Plate armour is the main reason why shields stoped being used.
@@stefankatsarov5806 full plate would be more expensive (higher gold cost) and users on foot slower
Hopefully the balance team will be closely watching match-ups and consider applying the gambeson tech to some unique infantry units, (and possibly other unique units) on a selective basis.
Plus possibly allow gambeson without supplies if needed for a couple of civs.
Puzzlingly adding pierce armor when piercing weapons and projectiles were it's main weakness
Todd's Workshop has run very historically representative tests on gambeson style padding vs longbow fire, and it does make a significant difference in penetration depth.
Given how rare swordsmen remain in this game, it seems reasonable.
I am more annoyed as to why it is studded.
@@bewawolf19 Probably to give the surface more texture at a glance. Also people studded whatever they could. Plate ain't cheap and every scrap of metal could save your life
Assuming you are wearing it under your armor as you are supposed to? Adding pierce armor makes sense since we do not have blunt damage in AOE. Imagining a scenario where an arrow manages to pierce the armor, the person that is wearing a gambeson is far less likely to actually get hurt by said arrow than a person that is not wearing one (though not wearing a solid piece of cloth under the armor pretty much makes the armor itself ineffective against everything that isn't slicing damage, but that's a different topic)
Great analysis, your attention to details is amazing! Well done!
Can you do one about the technologies at the Monastery? I`m curious what your analysis would be about these techs and for which cultures these techs would be worth it?
Never change bro, I wait and wait for every new video you put out! Your doing the lords work!
I find it funny how persians also have Gambesons
"Go buy yourself something nice"
I love these breakdowns of parts of the patch.
The problem with Age infantry is it's still too expensive. Knights will always be a better choice until you are getting 4 or 5 swordsman to 1 knight. Which historically might be closer to reality.
just free supplies for everyone would be a good, and I think we're done
i would love to see the cost of infantry reduced.
knights should be more expensive
This is basically my thought and solution to making infantry viable. You can't buff them till they're as strong as cavalry (that wouldn't make sense, and cav still has mobility). And even though they are cheaper, obviously it's not enough. I'm thinking along the lines of mass production. Infantry are the bulk of most (maybe just European? I don't know military history enough) armies, with cav and archers playing a more specialized role. But in AoE, these specialized roles can be and are the military. lol. So, make them cheaper, OR, make them mass produce (2 at a time or something), AND/OR, creation time is reduced even more. Maybe that breaks the game. Make them 25% more expensive if you go the bulk route. I don't know. But I don't think making them stronger and stronger is the answer logically or creatively. I just think with infantry it's more about quantity rather than quality.
@@curlywhites The infantry armor techs at the blacksmith should be quick, and the archer attack/range upgrades should take longer
Quality content as always Spirit!
Thank you! 👍
I think that this tech has a higher purpose. Particularly for American civilisations. I think it’s to promote certain unique units, namely the slinger and jaguar warriors
But still I would assume that Beserks with now basekit higher HP regeneration are going to be quite effective against skirmishers even if Longswords are buffed. The Urumi Swordsmen was also before a bit too good against civilizations who lack arbalester and hand cannon who regardless had a hard time countering those. I agree though on the Samurai being hurt the most because they were in fact very similiar in most other aspects to the champion.
they are faster as well
I can see how they'll be even better at that, but I don't really see that making much practical difference. Sure, they'll beat skirms even harder, but as far as I know they already beat them well enough. I just can't remember any realy situations where any non-spear infantry not being effective (enough) against skirms was an issue. It was always their performance against the other main units that was the problem (losing to both cavalry and archers).
I totally agree and I even thought of a more direct but by giving more Hitpoints to the Longswords man with this tech.. Because non infantry focused civs always lacked the easy access to even cost efficient trades with knights where they are only on par with the knight. But as SOTL pointed out that they would be otherwise maybe a bit too good against all trash units?
Honestly samurai need another pierce armor. It’s nice the “counter” unique units, but when so many of those UUs are ranged and mobile, the samurai falls to merely an aesthetic token.
Also, if Obuchs are gonna only cost 55f 20g and be 95 HP, then every single other infantry UU is owed a massive cost reduction and HP buff, or Obuchs just need to be way more expensive like 65f 30g.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 I actually think you're right about the Obuchs. People sleep on them currently because well, the game has a melee infantry problem (or lack of, I suppose) so they tend to not be any high level players go-to but they're actually disgusting cost-efficient compared to basically every other melee infantry unit in the game. It likely won't get address until melee infantry see more meta play though and Gambesons doesn't fix the problem on its own so we'll have to wait and see. For awhile too it seems, at this rate.
I would kinda say it´s the HP.
They feel fragile always compared to anything on the field.
But i guess that´s the fate of the militia line.
Hp might be a good buff, but I think training time and cost reduction would make more of an impact.
Great video 👍
Hi SOTL
Great quality video as always.
🙏Thanks Devs that hard counter units like handcanonier (gunpowder)and siege will still work against Champions.
Honestly I expect everything that worked before to still work. It's not that big of a big armor difference (except maybe for skirms, but it was already a bad matchup for them regardless, and stats alone are only a small fraction of why infantry gets outperformed. Infantry taking slightly better trades doesn't matter too much when their main problem is their inability to make those trades in the first place.
This is critical tech. Online and competitive AOE 2 had become an archer micro click battle and strategy had gone for a toss. This tech might balance some of that.
Always nice to see the most widely played javelin video of all time.
Thank you so much for this video about the new tech. The community doesn't deserve you- you are a god! Thanks for being literally the best at this. ❤❤❤
exactly the video I was waiting for ever since I heard about the new tech.
The lack of April Fools video is very disappointing, Spirit.
Thanks for your content
I gotta say, the thing I'm most excited about regarding this new massive update is all the SotL content we're gonna get from it 😁
I'm impressed this game still gets updates
It just pushes them further into being a trash counter and makes them stronger in situations where they're already used, like in teamgames in late game or to counter eagles or trash units. It won't make them used more, my prediction. The problem with the militia line is that they're countered by both xbows and knights, so we will always be seeing those two much more.
This, it's just more or less a tiny win more upgrade
whit the ubgrade to pikes lowerd and the fact that you alredy have infantry ubgrades, we are looking at a posible pike and sword combo vs knights.
@@stefankatsarov5806 pikes and swords vs knights and skirms you mean
Someone should suggest to the devs adding a 'garrison inside' button to rams, similar to Town Bell, that also tries to evenly distribute infantry so rams move at the same speed
I feel like even generic civs will still find some usefulness out of this, especially when you combine it with the quicker research time of the militia-line techs. Saracens for example, sometimes face trash spams because of how gold intensive they are and they types of units they create, so I can it worth it to try a arb-champ combo instead of their usual arb-hussar or even hussar-champ maybe. Hussar Champ feels like it could be really a deadly spam if you can build up to it.
Or Persians with Arbs/Mili if the enemy civ is an infantry civ during castle as you you research the tech that turns archers to trash units
I'm a little disappotined, that you didn't do an Aprils Fools video this year, but I still love u regardless ❤
Bold Prediction - In the future, Gambesons will be buffed to +1/+1 armour
It's not enough to make them mid-game meta. But once we settle into the late-game meta of Swordsmen tanking Skirms, they'll gain melee armour as well to shut down Halbs & esp Hussars, cementing their role as trash busters
I don't think they would do that, but I do think they will buffs the infantry UU that has similar role to champions. So maybe we'll see Samurai getting 1 more pierce armor or 2 more attacks, or Jaguar is 20 food cheaper with added attack benefits, etc.
@@CrnaStrela The two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive
"How good is Gambeson" -- Waiting for Shad to suddenly pop up out of nowhere like "I've been summoned"
Might have been better as cutting armor, though it _was_ also good for stopping arrows, as seen during the crusades
My guess for the new patch is that civs like Malay, Celts, Vikings, Dravidians will be able to do a double gold unit comp with xbow and long swordsman like how other civs do xbow knight and they will get better at castle age pushes
Malay should still be too vulnerable to early pressure for this to work for them on Arabia, I think. They're one of two civs (other being Chinese) that can't ever really open man at arms, which is why the devs think it's safe to give them free infantry armor.
SOTL is the only TH-camr who I upvote before even watching the video. I have that much faith I will love his videos.
Hello there, which one is the video where you show the diferent tipes of arabia for ranked?? I coudnt find it
How do infantry with gambesons fare against towers?
Can't wait to try malay trash 2hand swordman with gambeson!
Players: all infantry needs a rework
Devs: I agree _[adds new tech which only affects Militia line and isn't available to all civs anyway]_
I really feel they need to make them just move faster with an upgrade. Or maybe a slight more speed.
Maybe a test of 5-10% movement speed to see how it affects things.
Main purpose of gambesons is strengthening swordsmen in busting bases (TCs and castles fire arrows) and making them actually counter trash (aka eskirms) in lategame without making them OP aka giving every civ access to champskarls.
The primary thing that is holding swordsmen back is awkward food cost of upgrades, I would actually like to see infantry blacksmith upgrades, arson and squires cost wood instead of food.
@@Igor369 oh I gotta say I agree with the cost change
@@Igor369 why does Arson cost food anyway?
What are you burning, meat?
I thought torches needed wood...
@@Igor369 Gambesons are not going to change how Champs die to Castles like before, so it is only useful against TCs.
Where it will be interesting I think is civs that may have a strong castle age archer game but an average or weak imperial age one due to missing an upgrade.
No word about effect on arrows missing the target and hitting the next one, ie doing 50% dammage ? Does it has an effect here ?
If things get messy it could have an importanfce
Hi SOTL,
Is there a Fishtrap video on how to set them up?
If not could you make one?
Thx
Kinda wish it applied to some of the unique infantry units now. Like why am I ever going to build Jaguar Warriors now other than they look cool with eagles in the jungle in the single player campaign?
Jaguars destroy the champions who want to kill your eagles at least.
Yeah, Jags, Samurai, Woads all need some love. Berserks just need +1 pierce armor in imp.
You might make a few Jags against Goths or maybe Dravidians, I guess? Even then, they're iffy. It's a real shame that such a rad unit in design and history is so useless so much of the time. Since the Jag is on a civ that doesn't have cavalry and therefore will much more rarely encounter halbs, most civs would never want to make any kind of infantry against them anyway; so, the fact that the Jag is so slow, both to create and to move around the battlefield, is a crying shame.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 Woads I feel really suffer from a lack of real identity. Samurai and Jags might not be great but they DO have a defined identity/thing they've got bonuses against. Woads are 'slightly faster infantry in the slightly faster infantry civ' without being so fast as for it to be really notable over the champion line.
@@ikiry0830 id say they are significantly faster, but lack pierce armor to tank town center fire/castle fire to be any good at raiding for their (gold) cost
Sadly as someone else said the real problem is that almost anything the militia line can do, the knight line can do better, (with archers covering the bulk of the reminder). Which is allways going to leave Militia line with a purpose problem.
As an aside can i express how much i appreciate your super nerdy videos. They allways help me exercise the old grey matter which is allways fun to do. Rewatching your custom civ videos recently got me doing sme custom civ writing of my own and that was another fun exercise stretching the grey matter, (especially the commentaries;, thinking through how they'd possibly play out is a real brain workout).
I think it is fine for the knights to be better than militia. But I think that the costs of knights should be high enough that some people will choose the militia line as a cheaper option.
That grey matter failing you on always* :p
Well another question, is difference big enouth to flip albarest > Hand canon formula?
the infantry line can easily be fixed by being split up. We need a cheap alternative to the militia line similar to the scout that isn't a specialist like pikes are. I do think the militia line needs to be cheaper overall though.
Cheap militia-line? Yes, please!
Edge cases, outliers, unintended consequences. This channel is more like a fun ML course now 😆
I think if the militia line had a short speed boost option that is on a cooldown it would solve many of their issues. I just always feel like with infantry you die more than 1/2 of the time before you even really engage in the fight unless you mass them.
Crossbow Longsword combo op, got it.
Sicilians be like ah yes pierce armor, we were running low on that.
I would've preferred it to also give them a bit of a speed boost too. Close to or equal to Celts infantry speed. Or maybe give them a bonus attack vs. siege + trebs.
Oh, I missed this one. Interesting
This seems especially strong for Vikings who already have extra HP to improve the usefulness of pierce armor. Viking xbow + longswords seems like it could be decent, especially to transition to arbs in imp with their new attack tech.
VIKINGS! SHIELD WALL!!!!!
Viking infantry is already strong, why give’em Gambesons!
@@user-iz2tm5ih4e Because viking now are almost not used on tournaments exept some water maps.
I feel like those higher power units are supposed to counter infantry anyway since they all seem to be gunpowder so I don't see much issue with the tech not affecting those matchups much. They're not supposed to do well against those units
Number crunching season is OPEN!
Would add that in addition to being broken if they got supplies, Goths don’t need Gambesons because the Huskarl is already a thing.
This also reads as a great update for Celts, as their infantry benefit bigly but their siege is not nerfed (or is much less nerfed) than the infantry counters (mainly archers) of other civs.
Knights and archers always have their niche, even if they miss one or two upgrades. Swordsmen can't afford to miss as many upgrades as knights and archers can. So I would be happy if more civs get gambesons so we can see more "generic" swordsmen from civs that don't get any flashy infantry bonusses.
I think this should apply to infantry UU as well, but that would probably be broken on some civs.
This is a buff for hand cannoners. As a turk main I'm happy to see it
Turks dont get the tec tho
"Are you winning Gambeson?"
"Not now dad"
(Sorry not sorry)
Glad to see infantry get a bit of a buff. Sometimes x boy and knights in castle gets a bit boring
I'd say longswordsmen have an edge over knights in that they cost less while having fewer counters. Knights are hard counters by pikes, camels, mamelukes, etc. Whereas infantry are only really hard countered by archers and siege. But archers cost more gold than militia line while being countered by skirmishers and light cavalry. So you could easily have a mixed army of cav and infantry if your eco is geared towards food. Especially the Slavs
Going to be a big(ger) impact for low elo where micro on archers is less of a factor and there is no focus fire. Seems like that was somewhat of a theme in the changes overall from the patch aimed for the lower level players and at the high end it will be mostly a non factor.
I don't have high hopes for the militia line ever becoming a meta strategy in Aoe2, but this tech in combination with the other research buffs might make them the best option in some situations at least, like when the opponent makes a ton of pikemen + archers and you don't want to tech switch into ranged units yourself.
So teuton question here: champions or teutonic knights? Gambesons now gives Champions equal pierce armor to Elite Teutonic Knights so that's one less advantage the latter has over them. I'd still go TKs against melee threats but what arguments can you make for Champions? Or would you ever recommend upgrading into both Champions and elite tectonic knights, especially if you're also buying Paladin and possibly siege upgrades?
I see the video uploaded 2 min ago. But it already has 40 likes and 2 comments! Wtf
Patreons have early access.
Keep in mind that with the super high attack units, it is doing something. If you have mixed armies, the difference between surviving on 4, 8, or 12 hitpoints could be the difference between surviving multiple hits of some other enemy and not.
Basically, gambesons are like bullet proof vests. They will not be effective against the most potent weaponary, but are design to make the infantry endure more against the most basic (and more likely dangers to encounter) weapons, such as skirmishers and archers
Would change some of the blacksmith infantry upgrades costs from food to wood be a buff?
It could be an interesting change.
Just making them the quickest blacksmith techs could be huge. Make the archer attack/range upgrades slower. Gives infantry a window of opportunity to dive on archers.
What about missed progetiles that hit adjacent units? Didn't those always deal half the dmg If I remember correctly? I'd say for its price its always a pick if you go militia line.
This video actually convinced me that gambisson is a good addition, excited for the new patch. So much hate because of change
Hey, don't know if you noticed, but there are 36 new hidden achievements added to AoE2 on Steam, they do that usually before announcing a new expansion!
Any thoughts? :D
Probably adding +5% speed at Feudal Age and some sort of defensive bonus against multiple arrows (castle, chu ku nu etc) or reducing the food cost by 5 or maybe 10 but supplies just reduce 10, will get the militia line on a viable spot vs cavalry and archer meta.
mutiple arrows do 1 dmg each, you cant reduse it to 0 since 1 is the minimum.
5 or 10 less food will make it more true as their historical role as main army comp. Extra speed will just make it competing with cavalry
I feel like this tech will really make infantry super tanky against archers when using the x256 tech mod or cheat.
Kinda wish it applied to unique units. Would be nice to buff up Beserks or Serjeants
Berserks and Samurai yes. Serjeants no. They already have tons of armor.
So, are they going to actually going to take a hard look at this unit as a whole or are they going to continue going on and on with the tiny adjustments?
when is this technology available in the game?
I feel like that 1 pierce armor can make a huge diference in certain situations
Huh, a lot less civs got it than I thought. Good to know if this doesn’t change after beta.
Shout out to SOTL for listing the civs in order of release (where my AoK OGs).
Celtic Champs ftw? that movement speed!
when are these changes going to change place? I haven't seen gambesons yet.
How would this tech pair with the teuton’s bonus of giving their infantry extra armour?
I guess if you face Teutons with Britons or smh you'll still get the same results as all the others
Against not-only-Archer civs however, this could be a bit of a pain in the ass
Teuton bonus gives barracks and stable units +1 melee armor in castle age and another +1 melee armor in imperial. This tech gives the swordsman line +1 pierce armor available in castle age. Teuton longswords will be strong.
No one is stanning for the Malay in the comments, so I'm here! 💪 Trying to make a Fast Castle Malay swords push work!
Finally, my infantry love has been rewarded