So many knowledgeable people on this post, thank you guys, I’m going through the marines actions in the pacific, during WW2 to listen to these humble men speak of their exploits is harrowing at times and then they had to try and settle into family life after being trained to fight and kill the enemy, truly a great generation
That was interesting, but there is a far easier idea - he was assigned to USS Boise. Boise was at Guadalcanal and was damaged at Cape Esperance, went to Philadelphia Navy Yard for repairs, then went to the Med for the Battle of Gela, as well as Taranto and Salerno. After that, back to the Pacific. Probably wasn't aboard the whole time, but this is an easier explanation then trying to make a Mafia connection to a character that famously wanted nothing to do with that side of the family until his father got shot.
One minor thing. The oak leaf clusters are used by the army and air force for additional awards. The navy and USMC typically use stars for additional awards. Great video!
As previous comments said Occupation of Iceland in 1941 and OSS operations in France But 'Kudos' to the Sicilian backstory as this seems totally credible
As Regiments - yes - as far as I know. Marines were used to train Army Personnel in Amphibious Landings until the Army had enough experience that they didn't need them any more. However, all large American Naval Vessels - such as Battleships or Aircraft Carriers - had Marine Detachments. The men in these detachments would have gotten the same Campaign Medals as the ship's crew. They were part of the ship's crew. The purpose of these detachments goes back a thousand years or more. They could be used to board an enemy vessel - or - defend their own against borders. In modern times - the concern was being boarded by terrorists. Additionally - during the Age of Sail - it was common place for Ships to have Landing Parties of Sailors and Marines that would go ashore to attack an enemy fortification from it's landward side - or perform some other task - such as gathering food or wood for the health of the crew and maintenance of the ship. If there was need for the Shore Party to have security from say - hostile natives perhaps - that would be another job for the Marines. An additional purpose was to protect the Commander of the ship from mutiny. On some ships- there were secondary gun turrets manned by the Marine Detachment as an additional duty. These turrets had a small Eagle Glob and Anchor stencil painted on their outside. On the Battleship I saw the picture of - they manned a dual 5" 38 cal. turret. When I was last on an American Vessel - it had a Marine Detachment - but - these detachments were subsequently deleted in the Post Cold War Draw Down because of their cost. The Marines would periodically have security drills where, fully kitted out - they'd charge down the passageways and you better not get in their way as they were told to knock you aside if you did. Thus - any American Amphibious Landing during WWII would have had Marines there aboard ships - who might have been sent ashore for any number of security or logistical reasons. It would be a lot more likely that this was what he was doing in the Med - rather than some cloak and dagger thing with the Mafia. I was under the definite understanding that Michael had been kept out of the family business. I'm not sure how big the ship had to be to have a Marine Detachment. Carriers and Battleships - yes - Battle Cruisers probably - Cruisers ... I don't know. Destroyers and below - I doubt it. Then of course - all our Embassy's have Marine Guards. When Italy switched sides - they may have had an Embassy. Consulates may also have Marine Guards but I don't know. Their could have been a Consulate in Egypt. Small detachments of Marines have routinely been sent to all kinds of places to do all kinds of things. Of course they could have just screwed things up. When Michael is sent to assassinate that Police Captain and Mafioso - a Combat Veteran would probably not be as nervous as Michael was. It's hard to say. Being a non-vet Pacino didn't really know what it was like to be in the military - much less a Combat Veteran. .
well they had marksman on ship in operation neptune and overlord and some marines were involved in beach clearing and a small number were i belive kept on standby to assist the rangers at pont du hoc if the need arose.
There were small Marine detachments on the coast of France in 1945. Some Marines were killed when the Germans in the Channel Islands raided the coast. In addition it wouldn't have been impossible for a Marine officer who spoke Sicilian to be assigned by the Navy to assist in the landings in Sicily and later Salerno, though I suspect they would have kept him apart from the Army and the OSS.
For those wondering: In WW2, and with the Marine's generally, fewer medals & awards were more common. Today, larger ribbon racks are more common. As an example, an Army soldier serving in the Iraq War (3 years of service, 1 combat deployment), may conservatively obtain 5 ribbons, nearly as many as the putative Corleone, and without seeing any real action or doing anything of note.
In "Godfather II" Michael testifies to a Senate committee that he was awarded the Navy Cross. Yet when he appears for the first time in "Godfather I" the Navy Cross is nowhere to be seen.
I absolutely LOVE the headcanon and I am certain that Mario Puzo, who would happily torture his own writing to get it to work better with the projects of others, would approve and canonize this!
Marines actually operated in the African and European theater. The narrator is simply spouting rubbish. He's too simple to even see that Michael Lee retired as Marine officer, with the rank of Captain, hence the two bars on his shoulders. This gave away how much nonsense his knowledge is.
A Peter Ortiz-like OSS style story with an Italian background instead of a French one would be ideal but the lack of a Parachutist Badge makes that unlikely. The Paul Hogan marker for Australia, pure class!
I was thinking the same thing. Instead of jumping into occupied Europe, in my head canon Michael went in by rubber boat from a sub off the coast of Italy.
@@TheCommandersVoiceAATW since he didn't have an American Campaign Medal, I thought it was plausible that he was already operating in the theater. However, he doesn't have an American Defense Medal and I vaguely remember him saying he enlisted after the start of the war in the movie.
@@ClaspsofCourage likewise, Peter Ortiz is a worthy candidate for an episode, but you'll have to jump into the crazy world of French medals. In preparation for your Casey Ryback extravaganza, the Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard use gold stars for subsequent awards and not the oak leaf clusters of the Army and Air Force.
@ without looking at all the variables for qualifying service for the ACM, the most common way to earn it was service within the continental limits of the United States for an aggregate period of 1 year. We can create a plausible timeline where MC gets enlists after 7 DEC 41 but still lacks enough qualifying service for the ACM.
See, this is great. The first thing he says is to answer the question. Right off the bat we know what his medals are. Now I'm intrigue and CHOOSE to continue watching to get more details. Others need to do the same instead of forcing me to watch the whole vid to find out the answer. Great stuff. Keep it up.
Didn’t Puzzo make an actual service record for Michael? I’m pretty sure it’s exactly as you said in the video. Guadalcanal and Peliliu. Which are battles that the 1st Marine Division actually did take part in. I think Michael’s involvement in North Africa/Europe can be more easily explained by him just being put on sea duty after Guadalcanal than him doing intelligence/covert ops in Sicily. It makes even more sense when you consider that Vito was probably pulling strings to try and get him away from the front line (Not that serving on a ship in the Mediterranean was any less dangerous, but Vito probably didn’t know that.) Here is my guess. Michael fought at Guadalcanal, but his fathers influence got him separated from his unit and put on a ship post Guadalcanal. That also explains why he doesn’t have a medal for the battle of cape Gloucester, since he was miles away in the Mediterranean while it was happening. Eventually, Michael was able to get himself sent back to his unit in time for peliliu, where he fought before his father pulled more strings, resulting in his early return to the US in 1945 when The Godfather 1 begins. Bribing a doctor into Exaggerating his wounds just like you said. Which also accounts for his lack of participation in the battle of Okinawa. Really good analysis. I think you hit the nail on the head.
Actor Sterling Hayden was a Marine Corps officer who served in Europe, specifically on the islands and waters of the Adriatic Sea, with clandestine landings on the coast of German-occupied Yugoslavia to insert/extract agents, extract US flying personnel shot down but rescued by Partisans, and deliver weapons and other suppliers to said Partisans. Hayden was assigned to the OSS (Office of Strategic Services -- the forerunner of the CIA), which trained and employed men of all the US armed services, though its commander was an Army general, William "Wild Bill" Donavon. OSS men operating in the ETO would have earned the ENAME campaign medal if on the job there long enough. I expect there were other USMC personnel seconded to the OSS in Europe, but such service was a rarety compared to the vast majority of the Corps' manpower.
Stuffed up nothing. Francis Ford Coppola is known for doing thorough research on all his movies. It's just the narrator running his nonsense mouth , too clueless to realize Michael is wearing the uniform of a captain. That's when you realize he's clueless and has to rely on making up scenarios.
Some Marines served in a support role in the European campaign and North Africa campaign. It makes sense that was the case as there was significant naval presence and the Marines are the land forces of the Navy.
"Meanwhile, it was determined that weapons training was needed for U.S. Navy boat crewmen who would be involved in the Algerian portion of the landing as part of the Eastern Task Force. In September 1942, Marine Corps instructors were brought in from Londonderry and London to establish a three-week training camp at the naval base in Rosneath, Scotland. From Londonderry, Lieutenant Colonel Louis C. Plain and Captain William E. Davis led a detail of 25 enlisted Marines. The London Detachment sent First Lieutenant Fenton J. Mee and 15 enlisted men. At the end of the training period these three officers and 30 of the enlisted group were divided up into six teams and assigned to six different ships as a part of the landing force; the remaining 10 enlisted men returned to their base in Londonderry. On 31 October 1942, the Marine Detachment in London was disbanded and most of the unit transferred to Rosneath to establish a Marine Barracks there. Captain Thomas J. Myers, formerly a company commander with the unit in London, was placed in command. He was assisted by Lieutenants Frank R. Wilkinson, Horton J. Greene, Truman J. Lyford, and Alexander D. Cereghino. Lieutenant Weldon James was also present as a public affairs officer. Lieutenant Colonels Walter I. Jordan and John B. Hill visited Rosneath briefly before being reassigned to the States in November. Some key enlisted personnel remained in London on detached duty, to carry on their original assignments at ComNavEu. Command of the Western Naval Task Force (TF 34), for the landing in Morocco, was given to Rear Admiral Hewitt. It was comprised entirely of U.S. forces. Two of his key staff members were Marine officers - Lieutenant Colonel Homer L. Litzenberg, as assistant operations officer, and Major Francis Millet Rogers as assistant intelligence officer. Major General George S. Patton's Western Task Force provided the troops for the Morocco landings. Ships of the task force left from various east coast ports in late October 1942 and, once assembled in convoy, formed an armada of 100 ships, dispersed over the ocean in an area of some 20 by 30 miles. Yet it was said "that a flag hoist on Admiral Hewitt's ship, Augusta (CA 31), could reach the entire fleet in ten minutes." LtCol Homer L. Litzenberg Then-LtCol Homer L. Litzenberg served on the staff of Task Force 34 commander, RAdm H. Kent Hewitt, in Operation Torch, the invasion of North Africa. " (A DIFFERENT WAR: Marines in Europe and North Africa by Lieutenant Colonel Harry W. Edwards, U.S. Marine Corps (Ret))
When Sonny said "what do you think this is? the army where you shoot them from a mile away?" He was joking with Micheal but he's 100% right it's NOT the same thing
In the novel, when Michael is still being shielded from the family business he pleads his case by mentioning he (as a Marine) had be awarded the Distinguished Service Cross. So...a little confusion there. It has happened obviously but I would think it so rare as to be simply writer's ignorance.
There were US Marines in the ETO during DDay. The German troops thought that they were engaged with a Bn. when it was only 12 Marines. I don't remember what town it was in, but it has been documented.
Strangely enough, in The Godfather Part II, he states that he was awarded the Navy Cross, but it wasn’t among his ribbons in GF1, so likely an error in GF2.
Would it be possible for you to do the Medals of Cole Phelps from LA Noire? There isnt a picture of him in USMC uniform, but we do know that he definitely has a Silver Star and Asiatic Pacific Campaign medals
Just a note, with respect to the USMC, USN, and USCG the denotation of a second award is a gold star attachment, and a silver star for 5 subsequent awards. Oak leaf clusters (bronze and silver) are used by the Army and Air Force.
Depends on the type of award. Some have a large Gold Star to note 2nd and additional awards. Some have a small Bronze Star to indicate additional awards and Silver Star to denote 5 awards.
@@patrickmccrann991 No not really unless you want to get time specific. In WW1 it is not uncommon to find a US Marine with a Distinguished Service Cross or Purple Heart with an oak leaf cluster. But by WW2 things had become far more standardised. USMC, USN and USCG personnel who were recipients of multiple valour awards would receive either Gold Stars (denoting one additional award) or Silver Stars (denoting five additional awards) measuring 5/16th inch in lieu of an additional medal. The US Army or Army Air Force (before the establishment of the USAF in 1947) would award a Bronze Oak Leaf (one additional award) or Silver Oak Leaf (five additional awards) cluster (both 5/16th inch size) in lieu of additional medals. Campaign or service ribbons and good conduct awards for the USN, USMC and USCG have either bronze (denoting one additional campaign) or silver star (denoting five additional campaign awards) measuring 3/16th inch in size as ribbon attachments. The only awards today that exclusively use oak leaf clusters to denote additional awards for all services of the US Military are the Defense Distinguished Service Medal and Defense Superior Service Medal. I do collect USN and USMC medals as my hobby so I'm reasonably well-versed in this topic.
That's a nice stretch for the European-African-Middle East campaign medal. More likely the studio just made a mistake. In Godfather II they change the Silver Star to the Navy Cross. They're not nffearly as attentive to these things as the BBC. In one episode of the West Wing, Admiral Fitzwallace's ribbon bar is upside down. I can read a lot of medals. A useful skill in the service. I always look for these things.
@@stevehicks8944 USMC units took part in North African and European campaigns in support of the U.S. Navy, while the land battles were fought by the U.S. Army and the U.S. Army Air Corps. Learn to work on your understanding of history.
What he's really missing is the American Campaign Medal which was awarded for twelve months cumulative service in the Continental U.S. as the easiest way to earn one. I've never known or seen a WWII veteran without one.
Another interesting point, the US doesn’t order their campaign medals by the order they were earned. The Pacific campaign medal will always be worn before the European regardless of the order they were earned.
Perhaps another source of the second medal might be assignment as a "Fleet Marine" on any one of 31 eight fleet battle ships, carriers or cruisers that each would have had @ 80 enlisted/NCO's and two or three officers. They were the on board police force, officers also served as part of the court martial system for serious offenses, On carriers this group would be different from any air units on board.
Apparently, you have never read the book “The Godfather” written by Mario Puzo. Michael was NOT involved in the family business before the death of Santino “Sonny”. This was by his father’s wishes.
As a Marine the fictional Michael Corleone would not have earned the Asian and African European medals unless he had been working for the OSS. In the second movie the character of Michael claims that he was awarded the Navy Cross as well. Very few Marines participated in European operations and there were no major Marine Corps units involved in Europe with the exception of the occupation of Iceland early in Americas involvement after December 7, 1941. They were withdrawn and sent to the Solomon Islands in 1942. Two Marines come to mind as an exception. Both were movie stars in their own right and exceptional Marines as well. One was Peter J Ortiz (Twelve O'clock High) and Sterling Hayden (Dr Strangelove or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb). They were OSS operators. There were others such as a group of Marines who disrupted German operations behind the lines during the Normandy campaign. I'm thinking that the Continuity person on the set didn't know any better and didn't think audiences wouldn't either. Well, we do notice. Same as when Politicos lie to us. We notice.
@@stevenjohnson2063 Yes. There were Marines in the ETO. Just not large formations. There were Marines on all large ships such as cruisers and battleships. I think that this was simply a continuity error made by the producers of the film. In the book he tells his brother Sonny how he "killed Japs".
@@stevenjohnson2063 I was just kidding. Do you know what MARINE stands for? My ass rides in Navy Equipment. Navy. Never again volunteer yourself. Last and best. Why does the Navy have Marines on board ships. The Sailors need someone to dance with.
Here's a future episode. Ruger Hauger's character in Fatherland. (1994) There's really not a good shot of them but being in an alternate time line in England, should be interesting.
The Democrats in the FDR White House pushed for Mafia collaboration because they had long been political allies in New York and New Jersey. There's no real indication it produced anything of real value to the war effort. The high British casualties in Sicily and their slow advance were the faullt of Montgomery and the donkeys of the British staff. Patton, despite being shoved off the primary road net for the convenience of the British, managed to defeat both the Germans and Italians while traversing most of the island and beating Montgomery to the coast opposite the mainland.
Operations Torch, Husky and Dragoon had large USN, US Army and USAAF involvement. USMC involvement was very limited: DUKW operators and a detachment from capital ships eg. USS Philadelphia. But HQ staff, liaision and spec ops in Scicily and Italy certainly involved all services.
Michael's ETO ribbon was likely an error made by the wardrobe dept of the movie as there was no way he would have gone from one theater to another in the middle of the war. the ribbon he SHOULD have been wearing was the American Campaign Medal for service for at least 6 months service in the continental US. this was usually awarded because training took place in the US prior to deployment overseas. and the movie starts in late 1945 and the WW II Victory medal wasn't designed until 1946, having been established in 1945. also the rainbow designs on the edges are actually miniature replicas of the World War I victory medal.
Perhaps, he first served in the European theater and then continued in the Pacific theater as the Pacific war took much longer after the European theater was ended. Far more people perished at a greater rate in the Pacific theater.
@@frank-ko6de unlikely. it was rare for someone to be involved in combat in one theater and then move to another theater in the middle of a war. yes, some ETO units did serve in the Pacific, but that was AFTER Germany surrendered in May 1945. and the Marines saw almost no open combat in Europe in WW II. it's just more likely the wardrobe department of the movie screwed up and put the wrong ribbon on Michael's uniform.
@apollo21lmp whether, it was likely a or not, it still happened. There was a reason the Michael Corleon character was deemed special, and written as exceptional in contrast to the other Corleon sons. Francis Ford Coppola did all his research and there was a reason he portrayed him that way. He was deemed as a war hero, and his father refused to take a picture without him , in the opening scenes of the movie, which highlighted his esteem wirhin the family. The narrator is simply running his mouth without knowing what he's talking about.
@@apollo21lmpIt was routine to move escaped POWs to a different theatre upon retrieval… Aircrews were similarly routinely redeployed at the end of each tour. Four years is a long time.
Yes I will add him to my list, thank you. I may also have a look at Sgt Wilson who was an artillery officer and claimed he was at Gallipoli I think but will have to do a bit more research into that. Colonel Pritchard might be interesting too
Michael, having graduated (and he had graduated) from a prestigious university, would have almost certainly become an officer upon enlistment. In a Marine Corps starved of officers I doubt he would have been given a choice. The Corleone Family was running a legitimate Italian food import business, not smuggling. Their illegal business was mostly run out of Brooklyn and in the northeast US and centered on loansharking, gambling and similar businesses. Michael was not involved with any of the family business prior to his killing of Solazzo and the police captain. That's why Solazzo foolishly agreed to meet with him to negotiate a truce. His value to the Navy for Sicily would have his rudimentary knowledge of Sicilian. We know he wasn't fluent because he had to use Fabrizzio as an interpreter in approaching Appolonia's family, thus exposing himself as an American. During his exile he seems initially unfamiliar with Sicily, which would not have been the case if he worked undercover. More likely he brought specialized knowledge and training from the Pacific Marines and was liaison during the landings with the natives. He probably wouldn't have been in much direct combat. After Salerno at the latest he would have returned east to the Pacific via the Suez Canal and Australia. That could have put him back in combat at Cape Gloucester and New Britain. Like other veterans of his Guadacanal unit he would then have likely be part of the horrendous Peleliu operation. The lack of the Navy Cross on his uniform at his sister's wedding, which occurs just after his return in the fall of 1945 (he would have been among the first released from service due to his early enlistment, his wounds and his combat record), is probably due to a continuity and costume error but can be explained if his citation was under review by the Pentagon and only approved shortly afterwards. I strongly doubt the Michael character would engage in, or allow, any John Kerry like skullduggery to get a medal.
I always thought it was comical how the mobsters talked down to Michael about his going after Solazzo as if a mob hit was more violent and taxing than sustained combat in the WWII. One look at his fruit salad in the film and you know he’s no stranger to violence
Great video! And a great film! As my main interest is British medals it really interesting to look at some from overseas! Some of the Russian medals look interesting so it might be worth looking at starlins or one of the Marshall of the Soviets! Looking forward to your next offering. You have a great channel and I enjoy it immensely!😊
Thanks John, on the Russian /Soviet side I do have Captain Ramius from Hunt For Red October on my to-do list but might take a bit of research. In the future I will have a further look at real figures from history as well - Though if I did Marshal Zhukov judging by his medal awards it might be a 3 hour video!
When did americans go from a bit more conservative ribbon bars to the madness they have now? Looking at MASH characters (some great characters there you could look at like Col Potter too) they have the smaller ribbons but less of them.
Doesn't matter about his ribbons/medals. He shot it all down with his faux pas. Look at Godfather (II?) when he is running to his dads hospital room after figuring out all the guards are gone. He runs like, well like, well.... what he doesn't run like is a Marine. He runs like the most effeminate guy in your gym class.
Please be careful when you talk about Under Siege; Steven Seagal is a terrible person and many people can't stand him. Thanks to you I did some research into Casey Rybeck's ribbons. On the whole they're ok, i.e., he doesn't have anything impossible and they are at least in the right order, but they do change between movies and his promotion from CPO to Lt. is inexplicable. I ordered your book, too!
Thank you for ordering my book, much appreciated. I hope you enjoy it! Thanks for the info on Rybacks Ribbons, this channel is apolitical and focuses on the fictional character themselves not the actor or their lifestyle/political beliefs . Ryback is on the to-do list but not for a few weeks yet!
Just in time for the US Marine Corps 249th Birthday. Semper Fidelis!
So many knowledgeable people on this post, thank you guys, I’m going through the marines actions in the pacific, during WW2 to listen to these humble men speak of their exploits is harrowing at times and then they had to try and settle into family life after being trained to fight and kill the enemy, truly a great generation
That was interesting, but there is a far easier idea - he was assigned to USS Boise. Boise was at Guadalcanal and was damaged at Cape Esperance, went to Philadelphia Navy Yard for repairs, then went to the Med for the Battle of Gela, as well as Taranto and Salerno. After that, back to the Pacific. Probably wasn't aboard the whole time, but this is an easier explanation then trying to make a Mafia connection to a character that famously wanted nothing to do with that side of the family until his father got shot.
One minor thing. The oak leaf clusters are used by the army and air force for additional awards. The navy and USMC typically use stars for additional awards. Great video!
Thanks for sharing
As previous comments said Occupation of Iceland in 1941 and OSS operations in France
But 'Kudos' to the Sicilian backstory as this seems totally credible
US Marine Corps units were used in the occupation of Iceland. This was the only deployment of US Marine Corps units in the ETO.
Interesting, thanks for sharing
As Regiments - yes - as far as I know.
Marines were used to train Army Personnel in Amphibious Landings until the Army had enough experience that they didn't need them any more.
However, all large American Naval Vessels - such as Battleships or Aircraft Carriers - had Marine Detachments. The men in these detachments would have gotten the same Campaign Medals as the ship's crew. They were part of the ship's crew.
The purpose of these detachments goes back a thousand years or more. They could be used to board an enemy vessel - or - defend their own against borders. In modern times - the concern was being boarded by terrorists.
Additionally - during the Age of Sail - it was common place for Ships to have Landing Parties of Sailors and Marines that would go ashore to attack an enemy fortification from it's landward side - or perform some other task - such as gathering food or wood for the health of the crew and maintenance of the ship. If there was need for the Shore Party to have security from say - hostile natives perhaps - that would be another job for the Marines.
An additional purpose was to protect the Commander of the ship from mutiny.
On some ships- there were secondary gun turrets manned by the Marine Detachment as an additional duty. These turrets had a small Eagle Glob and Anchor stencil painted on their outside. On the Battleship I saw the picture of - they manned a dual 5" 38 cal. turret.
When I was last on an American Vessel - it had a Marine Detachment - but - these detachments were subsequently deleted in the Post Cold War Draw Down because of their cost. The Marines would periodically have security drills where, fully kitted out - they'd charge down the passageways and you better not get in their way as they were told to knock you aside if you did.
Thus - any American Amphibious Landing during WWII would have had Marines there aboard ships - who might have been sent ashore for any number of security or logistical reasons. It would be a lot more likely that this was what he was doing in the Med - rather than some cloak and dagger thing with the Mafia. I was under the definite understanding that Michael had been kept out of the family business.
I'm not sure how big the ship had to be to have a Marine Detachment. Carriers and Battleships - yes - Battle Cruisers probably - Cruisers ... I don't know. Destroyers and below - I doubt it.
Then of course - all our Embassy's have Marine Guards. When Italy switched sides - they may have had an Embassy. Consulates may also have Marine Guards but I don't know. Their could have been a Consulate in Egypt.
Small detachments of Marines have routinely been sent to all kinds of places to do all kinds of things.
Of course they could have just screwed things up. When Michael is sent to assassinate that Police Captain and Mafioso - a Combat Veteran would probably not be as nervous as Michael was. It's hard to say. Being a non-vet Pacino didn't really know what it was like to be in the military - much less a Combat Veteran.
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well they had marksman on ship in operation neptune and overlord and some marines were involved in beach clearing and a small number were i belive kept on standby to assist the rangers at pont du hoc if the need arose.
There were small Marine detachments on the coast of France in 1945. Some Marines were killed when the Germans in the Channel Islands raided the coast. In addition it wouldn't have been impossible for a Marine officer who spoke Sicilian to be assigned by the Navy to assist in the landings in Sicily and later Salerno, though I suspect they would have kept him apart from the Army and the OSS.
@@BrianMcCarthy-z9lThe OSS had marines assigned to it. Nominally they were assigned to London for service.
For those wondering: In WW2, and with the Marine's generally, fewer medals & awards were more common. Today, larger ribbon racks are more common.
As an example, an Army soldier serving in the Iraq War (3 years of service, 1 combat deployment), may conservatively obtain 5 ribbons, nearly as many as the putative Corleone, and without seeing any real action or doing anything of note.
Agreed. Anything below an Army Commendation medal with V device is just a participation medal.
Looking like 3rd world military generals.
Agreed. Anything below an Army Commendation medal with V device is just a participation medal
In "Godfather II" Michael testifies to a Senate committee that he was awarded the Navy Cross. Yet when he appears for the first time in "Godfather I" the Navy Cross is nowhere to be seen.
Thank you for the in-depth analysis of Michael Corleone's medals.
Wolud you do gunnery sergeant highway form heartbreak ridge?
I absolutely LOVE the headcanon and I am certain that Mario Puzo, who would happily torture his own writing to get it to work better with the projects of others, would approve and canonize this!
Marine detachments aboard major U.S. warships such as battleships in the European Theatre would have qualified for the EAME service medal.
Marines actually operated in the African and European theater. The narrator is simply spouting rubbish. He's too simple to even see that Michael Lee retired as Marine officer, with the rank of Captain, hence the two bars on his shoulders. This gave away how much nonsense his knowledge is.
A Peter Ortiz-like OSS style story with an Italian background instead of a French one would be ideal but the lack of a Parachutist Badge makes that unlikely. The Paul Hogan marker for Australia, pure class!
I was thinking the same thing. Instead of jumping into occupied Europe, in my head canon Michael went in by rubber boat from a sub off the coast of Italy.
Interesting, yes that could have been another potential angle.
@@TheCommandersVoiceAATW since he didn't have an American Campaign Medal, I thought it was plausible that he was already operating in the theater. However, he doesn't have an American Defense Medal and I vaguely remember him saying he enlisted after the start of the war in the movie.
@@ClaspsofCourage likewise, Peter Ortiz is a worthy candidate for an episode, but you'll have to jump into the crazy world of French medals.
In preparation for your Casey Ryback extravaganza, the Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard use gold stars for subsequent awards and not the oak leaf clusters of the Army and Air Force.
@ without looking at all the variables for qualifying service for the ACM, the most common way to earn it was service within the continental limits of the United States for an aggregate period of 1 year. We can create a plausible timeline where MC gets enlists after 7 DEC 41 but still lacks enough qualifying service for the ACM.
See, this is great. The first thing he says is to answer the question. Right off the bat we know what his medals are. Now I'm intrigue and CHOOSE to continue watching to get more details. Others need to do the same instead of forcing me to watch the whole vid to find out the answer. Great stuff. Keep it up.
Thanks, much appreciated.
Didn’t Puzzo make an actual service record for Michael? I’m pretty sure it’s exactly as you said in the video. Guadalcanal and Peliliu. Which are battles that the 1st Marine Division actually did take part in.
I think Michael’s involvement in North Africa/Europe can be more easily explained by him just being put on sea duty after Guadalcanal than him doing intelligence/covert ops in Sicily. It makes even more sense when you consider that Vito was probably pulling strings to try and get him away from the front line (Not that serving on a ship in the Mediterranean was any less dangerous, but Vito probably didn’t know that.)
Here is my guess. Michael fought at Guadalcanal, but his fathers influence got him separated from his unit and put on a ship post Guadalcanal. That also explains why he doesn’t have a medal for the battle of cape Gloucester, since he was miles away in the Mediterranean while it was happening. Eventually, Michael was able to get himself sent back to his unit in time for peliliu, where he fought before his father pulled more strings, resulting in his early return to the US in 1945 when The Godfather 1 begins. Bribing a doctor into Exaggerating his wounds just like you said. Which also accounts for his lack of participation in the battle of Okinawa.
Really good analysis. I think you hit the nail on the head.
This is a remarkable achievement, but I have to assume that this was just the filmmakers screwing up
Marine Corps officers & NCOs were also involved in the OSS and activity engaged in espionage and sabotage in Sicily, Italy and France.
Should also reference the novel, which does discuss briefly his military service
Actor Sterling Hayden was a Marine Corps officer who served in Europe, specifically on the islands and waters of the Adriatic Sea, with clandestine landings on the coast of German-occupied Yugoslavia to insert/extract agents, extract US flying personnel shot down but rescued by Partisans, and deliver weapons and other suppliers to said Partisans. Hayden was assigned to the OSS (Office of Strategic Services -- the forerunner of the CIA), which trained and employed men of all the US armed services, though its commander was an Army general, William "Wild Bill" Donavon. OSS men operating in the ETO would have earned the ENAME campaign medal if on the job there long enough. I expect there were other USMC personnel seconded to the OSS in Europe, but such service was a rarety compared to the vast majority of the Corps' manpower.
Interesting, thanks for sharing.
There was 1 USMC Brigade in Europe.
I think they just stuffed up and he was supposed to have an American Campaign Medal instead of the ETO one.
I think Michael would have initially gone through OCS after joining so the American Campaign would cover that period.
@@dlxmarksHe literally has captain bars. The narrator is just running his mouth and talking no sense like a typical Brit.
Stuffed up nothing. Francis Ford Coppola is known for doing thorough research on all his movies. It's just the narrator running his nonsense mouth , too clueless to realize Michael is wearing the uniform of a captain. That's when you realize he's clueless and has to rely on making up scenarios.
@@frank-ko6de Alright, calm down
@@Crissy_the_wonder Hit a very stinging nerve on a triggered , fragiled spine, have I not.....?????
Some Marines served in a support role in the European campaign and North Africa campaign. It makes sense that was the case as there was significant naval presence and the Marines are the land forces of the Navy.
"Meanwhile, it was determined that weapons training was needed for U.S. Navy boat crewmen who would be involved in the Algerian portion of the landing as part of the Eastern Task Force. In September 1942, Marine Corps instructors were brought in from Londonderry and London to establish a three-week training camp at the naval base in Rosneath, Scotland.
From Londonderry, Lieutenant Colonel Louis C. Plain and Captain William E. Davis led a detail of 25 enlisted Marines. The London Detachment sent First Lieutenant Fenton J. Mee and 15 enlisted men. At the end of the training period these three officers and 30 of the enlisted group were divided up into six teams and assigned to six different ships as a part of the landing force; the remaining 10 enlisted men returned to their base in Londonderry.
On 31 October 1942, the Marine Detachment in London was disbanded and most of the unit transferred to Rosneath to establish a Marine Barracks there. Captain Thomas J. Myers, formerly a company commander with the unit in London, was placed in command. He was assisted by Lieutenants Frank R. Wilkinson, Horton J. Greene, Truman J. Lyford, and Alexander D. Cereghino. Lieutenant Weldon James was also present as a public affairs officer. Lieutenant Colonels Walter I. Jordan and John B. Hill visited Rosneath briefly before being reassigned to the States in November. Some key enlisted personnel remained in London on detached duty, to carry on their original assignments at ComNavEu.
Command of the Western Naval Task Force (TF 34), for the landing in Morocco, was given to Rear Admiral Hewitt. It was comprised entirely of U.S. forces. Two of his key staff members were Marine officers - Lieutenant Colonel Homer L. Litzenberg, as assistant operations officer, and Major Francis Millet Rogers as assistant intelligence officer.
Major General George S. Patton's Western Task Force provided the troops for the Morocco landings. Ships of the task force left from various east coast ports in late October 1942 and, once assembled in convoy, formed an armada of 100 ships, dispersed over the ocean in an area of some 20 by 30 miles. Yet it was said "that a flag hoist on Admiral Hewitt's ship, Augusta (CA 31), could reach the entire fleet in ten minutes."
LtCol Homer L. Litzenberg
Then-LtCol Homer L. Litzenberg served on the staff of Task Force 34 commander, RAdm H. Kent Hewitt, in Operation Torch, the invasion of North Africa. "
(A DIFFERENT WAR: Marines in Europe and North Africa
by Lieutenant Colonel Harry W. Edwards, U.S. Marine Corps (Ret))
A Marine in WWII who won a silver star and purple heart would not have been such a novice in the murder of Salozzo.
When Sonny said "what do you think this is? the army where you shoot them from a mile away?" He was joking with Micheal but he's 100% right it's NOT the same thing
You delivered!
Looking forward to seeing the stories behind the medals of a lowly, lowly cook 😂😂
In the novel, when Michael is still being shielded from the family business he pleads his case by mentioning he (as a Marine) had be awarded the Distinguished Service Cross. So...a little confusion there. It has happened obviously but I would think it so rare as to be simply writer's ignorance.
There were US Marines in the ETO during DDay. The German troops thought that they were engaged with a Bn. when it was only 12 Marines. I don't remember what town it was in, but it has been documented.
They made a mistake in the film......he won the navy Cross not the silver star
Continuity mistake
Strangely enough, in The Godfather Part II, he states that he was awarded the Navy Cross, but it wasn’t among his ribbons in GF1, so likely an error in GF2.
The uniform in the photo is that of a officer in the U.S. Army not worn by the Marines. Marine were not deployed to Europe except on Navy ships.
All us navy ships have marines on them , he could have been on as a mp. It's as easy as that
Would it be possible for you to do the Medals of Cole Phelps from LA Noire? There isnt a picture of him in USMC uniform, but we do know that he definitely has a Silver Star and Asiatic Pacific Campaign medals
Just a note, with respect to the USMC, USN, and USCG the denotation of a second award is a gold star attachment, and a silver star for 5 subsequent awards. Oak leaf clusters (bronze and silver) are used by the Army and Air Force.
Thanks for sharing
Depends on the type of award. Some have a large Gold Star to note 2nd and additional awards. Some have a small Bronze Star to indicate additional awards and Silver Star to denote 5 awards.
@@patrickmccrann991 No not really unless you want to get time specific. In WW1 it is not uncommon to find a US Marine with a Distinguished Service Cross or Purple Heart with an oak leaf cluster. But by WW2 things had become far more standardised. USMC, USN and USCG personnel who were recipients of multiple valour awards would receive either Gold Stars (denoting one additional award) or Silver Stars (denoting five additional awards) measuring 5/16th inch in lieu of an additional medal. The US Army or Army Air Force (before the establishment of the USAF in 1947) would award a Bronze Oak Leaf (one additional award) or Silver Oak Leaf (five additional awards) cluster (both 5/16th inch size) in lieu of additional medals. Campaign or service ribbons and good conduct awards for the USN, USMC and USCG have either bronze (denoting one additional campaign) or silver star (denoting five additional campaign awards) measuring 3/16th inch in size as ribbon attachments. The only awards today that exclusively use oak leaf clusters to denote additional awards for all services of the US Military are the Defense Distinguished Service Medal and Defense Superior Service Medal. I do collect USN and USMC medals as my hobby so I'm reasonably well-versed in this topic.
In the novel it was said that Michael had earned the distinguished service cross which is not seen in the salad.
Why would you assume that he was an enlisted marine, when he is clearly a captain?
He addresses this later in the video.
@@erics362 No, he did not. Stop it.
That's a nice stretch for the European-African-Middle East campaign medal. More likely the studio just made a mistake. In Godfather II they change the Silver Star to the Navy Cross. They're not nffearly as attentive to these things as the BBC. In one episode of the West Wing, Admiral Fitzwallace's ribbon bar is upside down. I can read a lot of medals. A useful skill in the service. I always look for these things.
Michael could have used some political connections to have his silver star upgraded to a Navy Cross.
@@MaxwellAerialPhotography If an upgrade was his intention, why stop with the Navy Cross? And what about Adm Fitswallace's decorations?
No major USMC units participated in the North Africa; many U.S. Army units took part in the combat in North Africa, Sicily and Italy.
@@stevehicks8944 USMC units took part in North African and European campaigns in support of the U.S. Navy, while the land battles were fought by the U.S. Army and the U.S. Army Air Corps. Learn to work on your understanding of history.
What he's really missing is the American Campaign Medal which was awarded for twelve months cumulative service in the Continental U.S. as the easiest way to earn one. I've never known or seen a WWII veteran without one.
Would love to see an episode on the late governor of NSW Sir Roden Cutler VC, AK, KCMG, KCVO, CBE.
I remember seeing those rugs in kandahar Airfield in the rare occasions I got to enjoy the big bases. Where did you get yours?
The proper description the Navy/Marine Corps medal description is a foul anchor, not a fouled anchor.
Yes that's correct, slip of the tongue on my part.
Another interesting point, the US doesn’t order their campaign medals by the order they were earned.
The Pacific campaign medal will always be worn before the European regardless of the order they were earned.
Thanks for sharing
Perhaps another source of the second medal might be assignment as a "Fleet Marine" on any one of 31 eight fleet battle ships, carriers or cruisers that each would have had @ 80 enlisted/NCO's and two or three officers. They were the on board police force, officers also served as part of the court martial system for serious offenses, On carriers this group would be different from any air units on board.
They glazed the Mafia so hard in this film by making Michael such a gigachad war hero and youngest USMC Captain
Apparently, you have never read the book “The Godfather” written by Mario Puzo. Michael was NOT involved in the family business before the death of Santino “Sonny”. This was by his father’s wishes.
As a Marine the fictional Michael Corleone would not have earned the Asian and African European medals unless he had been working for the OSS. In the second movie the character of Michael claims that he was awarded the Navy Cross as well. Very few Marines participated in European operations and there were no major Marine Corps units involved in Europe with the exception of the occupation of Iceland early in Americas involvement after December 7, 1941. They were withdrawn and sent to the Solomon Islands in 1942. Two Marines come to mind as an exception. Both were movie stars in their own right and exceptional Marines as well. One was Peter J Ortiz (Twelve O'clock High) and Sterling Hayden (Dr Strangelove or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb). They were OSS operators. There were others such as a group of Marines who disrupted German operations behind the lines during the Normandy campaign. I'm thinking that the Continuity person on the set didn't know any better and didn't think audiences wouldn't either. Well, we do notice. Same as when Politicos lie to us. We notice.
However she going Marines on ships in the Mediterranean might have earned the Middle Eastern medal
@@stevenjohnson2063 Yes. There were Marines in the ETO. Just not large formations. There were Marines on all large ships such as cruisers and battleships. I think that this was simply a continuity error made by the producers of the film. In the book he tells his brother Sonny how he "killed Japs".
@@stevenjohnson2063 "She going Marines" are "special". 😏 Just kidding of course.
@@nosaltadded2530okay, my voice to text was not working properly. Seagoing Marines not she going Marines. . .
@@stevenjohnson2063 I was just kidding. Do you know what MARINE stands for? My ass rides in Navy Equipment. Navy. Never again volunteer yourself. Last and best. Why does the Navy have Marines on board ships. The Sailors need someone to dance with.
Here's a future episode. Ruger Hauger's character in Fatherland. (1994)
There's really not a good shot of them but being in an alternate time line in England, should be interesting.
@5'35" LT GEN George PattEn ....thta s a real newbie !
Have to point out the incorrect spelling of George Patton in the strategic overview slides.
The Democrats in the FDR White House pushed for Mafia collaboration because they had long been political allies in New York and New Jersey. There's no real indication it produced anything of real value to the war effort. The high British casualties in Sicily and their slow advance were the faullt of Montgomery and the donkeys of the British staff. Patton, despite being shoved off the primary road net for the convenience of the British, managed to defeat both the Germans and Italians while traversing most of the island and beating Montgomery to the coast opposite the mainland.
Operations Torch, Husky and Dragoon had large USN, US Army and USAAF involvement. USMC involvement was very limited: DUKW operators and a detachment from capital ships eg. USS Philadelphia. But HQ staff, liaision and spec ops in Scicily and Italy certainly involved all services.
Michael's ETO ribbon was likely an error made by the wardrobe dept of the movie as there was no way he would have gone from one theater to another in the middle of the war. the ribbon he SHOULD have been wearing was the American Campaign Medal for service for at least 6 months service in the continental US. this was usually awarded because training took place in the US prior to deployment overseas. and the movie starts in late 1945 and the WW II Victory medal wasn't designed until 1946, having been established in 1945. also the rainbow designs on the edges are actually miniature replicas of the World War I victory medal.
Perhaps, he first served in the European theater and then continued in the Pacific theater as the Pacific war took much longer after the European theater was ended. Far more people perished at a greater rate in the Pacific theater.
@@frank-ko6de unlikely. it was rare for someone to be involved in combat in one theater and then move to another theater in the middle of a war. yes, some ETO units did serve in the Pacific, but that was AFTER Germany surrendered in May 1945. and the Marines saw almost no open combat in Europe in WW II. it's just more likely the wardrobe department of the movie screwed up and put the wrong ribbon on Michael's uniform.
@apollo21lmp whether, it was likely a or not, it still happened. There was a reason the Michael Corleon character was deemed special, and written as exceptional in contrast to the other Corleon sons.
Francis Ford Coppola did all his research and there was a reason he portrayed him that way.
He was deemed as a war hero, and his father refused to take a picture without him , in the opening scenes of the movie, which highlighted his esteem wirhin the family. The narrator is simply running his mouth without knowing what he's talking about.
@@apollo21lmpUS Navy units (and their associated marine detachments) served in the Pacific, Mediterranean and Atlantic.
@@apollo21lmpIt was routine to move escaped POWs to a different theatre upon retrieval…
Aircrews were similarly routinely redeployed at the end of each tour.
Four years is a long time.
I know The History Chap already did this, but could you do Private Godfrey from “Dad’s Army”?
Yes I will add him to my list, thank you. I may also have a look at Sgt Wilson who was an artillery officer and claimed he was at Gallipoli I think but will have to do a bit more research into that. Colonel Pritchard might be interesting too
Michael, having graduated (and he had graduated) from a prestigious university, would have almost certainly become an officer upon enlistment. In a Marine Corps starved of officers I doubt he would have been given a choice.
The Corleone Family was running a legitimate Italian food import business, not smuggling. Their illegal business was mostly run out of Brooklyn and in the northeast US and centered on loansharking, gambling and similar businesses. Michael was not involved with any of the family business prior to his killing of Solazzo and the police captain. That's why Solazzo foolishly agreed to meet with him to negotiate a truce. His value to the Navy for Sicily would have his rudimentary knowledge of Sicilian. We know he wasn't fluent because he had to use Fabrizzio as an interpreter in approaching Appolonia's family, thus exposing himself as an American. During his exile he seems initially unfamiliar with Sicily, which would not have been the case if he worked undercover. More likely he brought specialized knowledge and training from the Pacific Marines and was liaison during the landings with the natives. He probably wouldn't have been in much direct combat. After Salerno at the latest he would have returned east to the Pacific via the Suez Canal and Australia. That could have put him back in combat at Cape Gloucester and New Britain. Like other veterans of his Guadacanal unit he would then have likely be part of the horrendous Peleliu operation.
The lack of the Navy Cross on his uniform at his sister's wedding, which occurs just after his return in the fall of 1945 (he would have been among the first released from service due to his early enlistment, his wounds and his combat record), is probably due to a continuity and costume error but can be explained if his citation was under review by the Pentagon and only approved shortly afterwards. I strongly doubt the Michael character would engage in, or allow, any John Kerry like skullduggery to get a medal.
I always thought it was comical how the mobsters talked down to Michael about his going after Solazzo as if a mob hit was more violent and taxing than sustained combat in the WWII. One look at his fruit salad in the film and you know he’s no stranger to violence
Would not the US ships cruiser and above carried a marine guard unit eg USS Texas at Torch landings
Great video. One small point. I think you meant “banzai” rather than “bonsai”
Great video!
And a great film!
As my main interest is British medals it really interesting to look at some from overseas!
Some of the Russian medals look interesting so it might be worth looking at starlins or one of the Marshall of the Soviets!
Looking forward to your next offering. You have a great channel and I enjoy it immensely!😊
Thanks John, on the Russian /Soviet side I do have Captain Ramius from Hunt For Red October on my to-do list but might take a bit of research. In the future I will have a further look at real figures from history as well - Though if I did Marshal Zhukov judging by his medal awards it might be a 3 hour video!
Can you please to maverick off top gun please.
An excellent suggestion, thank you. I will add it to my to-do list.
This was a movie, not real life. This person never existed
When did americans go from a bit more conservative ribbon bars to the madness they have now? Looking at MASH characters (some great characters there you could look at like Col Potter too) they have the smaller ribbons but less of them.
He was a “ civilian” until he got involved after they tried to kill his father….the only weak point of the history… otherwise cool video.
The pronunciation “seh-CON-ded” as opposed to “SEH-con-ded” threw me a bit… I suppose I am an unenlightened colonial. 😊
Doesn't matter about his ribbons/medals. He shot it all down with his faux pas. Look at Godfather (II?) when he is running to his dads hospital room after figuring out all the guards are gone. He runs like, well like, well.... what he doesn't run like is a Marine. He runs like the most effeminate guy in your gym class.
Please be careful when you talk about Under Siege; Steven Seagal is a terrible person and many people can't stand him. Thanks to you I did some research into Casey Rybeck's ribbons. On the whole they're ok, i.e., he doesn't have anything impossible and they are at least in the right order, but they do change between movies and his promotion from CPO to Lt. is inexplicable. I ordered your book, too!
For fictional recipients of the Navy Cross, I vote for Thomas Magnum over Casey Ryback. 😆
Thank you for ordering my book, much appreciated. I hope you enjoy it! Thanks for the info on Rybacks Ribbons, this channel is apolitical and focuses on the fictional character themselves not the actor or their lifestyle/political beliefs . Ryback is on the to-do list but not for a few weeks yet!