Repertoire: The IDEAL Beethoven Symphony Cycle
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ต.ค. 2020
- Yep! Here it is, the Beethoven cycle to end all Beethoven cycles, and as usual no conductor gets more than one selection. Unlike the video on the best Beethoven cycles in a box by the same artists, this video offers a wide-ranging selection of interpretive approaches. You can't go wrong either way, so have a look and then start listening!
- เพลง
Bravo Dave for promoting Schmidt-Isserstedt's Beethoven 9th! It's my favorite too. By the end of the finale I was in tears, which is something that's never happened to me before.
Your videos are allowing me to listen to music on an entirely different level. Thank you!
I'm glad!
Only just saw this David. Thoroughly enjoyable and I'm especially grateful for the tips about Markevitch and Kletzki which have become immediate favourites.
Hi Mr. Hurwitz! I'm so grateful that you are sharing your immense knowledge, great taste for music and good wit with us. So many new recommendations, and honestly, they are all spot on. It is hurting my CD budget (already over 20 new CDs based on your chats), but we have to keep on listening. Thanks again, and wish you all the best!
My pleasure!
Thank you!!! This ideal Symphony cycle series is your best content yet!!
Glad you think so!
I agree it helps so much!
Schmidt-Isserstedt - YES
Thanks for advocating for Honeck here and elsewhere! His recording of the 3rd is head and shoulders above every other modern recording I've heard - such a lively and energetic vision, with playing that's precise but at the same full of expressive character. And the recording engineering is superb - you can hear every exciting detail. This is one of the best new orchestral recordings I have heard in some time!
I really like your new "idealized cycle" videos. Thank you, Dave.
Thank you David - a great rundown, excellent suggestions. Having been reared on the Klemperer set (and his mono 5th is so special) your recommendation of the Szell set was an eye-opener for me, I love it! But my favourite Pastoral is still the old mono Szell with that mad flute in the storm movement.
Good lord! David's comments on the Eroica are astounding! For me it is just about the greatest symphony ever written! Ah well...each to his own..
Wonderful records, thank you.
Jochum has been a recent obsession of mine, as he can alternate seamlessly between precision and malleability. I have been playing his miraculous Bruckner 6 with the BRSO like a cultist of the not-so-little red book for the last few years.
Thank you David - highly informative. These surveys must be particularly valuable to young people who are overwhelmed by gazillions of choices. It helps steer them to fine versions - and they can then follow their own paths. And besides, your surveys are fun to watch. Best wishes for continued good health.
Thank you.
I’m glad to see Kletzki’s 8th made your ideal cycle. I’d never heard of the Kletzki cycle before your videos and I’ve become a bit obsessed with it over the past couple of months. You just can’t beat the Czech woodwinds in the tutti grande that is the 8th.
30 minutes and not a wasted second or sentence. Bravo and thanks for the tips.
You're welcome!
Hello David. Thanks again for your wonderful and so informative daily videos. After watching this one, I listened to Markevitch 5th. What a shock ! The sound is so natural, so evident. It’s like being there in 1810 with the composer. Not that Szell, Kleiber or Karajan are not great demonstrations. Not that Zinman or Chailly bring a new and wonderful way to listen to the symphony. But as you say so well, they all represent today’s view of Beethoven with today’s orchestras, whatever different it may sound from one conductor to another. Here, it’s really different. And of course Markevitch is a genius that conveys that true performance from the early days of the 19th century and that unique emotion to us. Wow !
Your selection of the Schmidt-Isserstedt for the 9th took me right back to the Readers Digest classical set of 10 LPs that they bought in the 1960s, by which my classical music mania was born in my teens. The LP in question was the Beethoven 7th and it has long since gone to meet its maker. But it aroused in me (along with several others of the LPs in that set, especially a recording of Berlioz' Symphony Fantastique) my lifelong love of classical music. Thank you, Hans! and thank you Dave for all your inspirations.
Nice job recognizing the excellence of the (largely ignored) Kletzki cycle. I've had these for some years--when I got them used on the internet, the seller included ticket stubs printed in Japanese from when the CPO was on tour in Japan: a nice personal touch.
You are so right about Schmidt-Isserstedt's 9th. Have loved this version for decades and have never found an alternative that sounds so RIGHT, so felicitous, so sympathetic, so majestic. And the Vienna Philharmonic sounding it's absolute finest.
Thanks for this. Honeck's Eroica now on the shopping list. And great to be reminded of Kletzki's Supraphon cycle. So many other wonderful alternatives, but with Beethoven it's a never-ending task and you've come up with some really interesting choices here.
I would love to watch an opposite series, where you pick the best 10-ish recordings of a single conductor who often overrecorded (Karajan, Bernstein, Harnoncourt comes to my mind immediately). Show those big record labels who churn out endless number of big boxes how things should really be done!
He's started to do this recently as paywalled "insider" videos
In accepting your challenge, I've decided to go one step further and select my ideal cycle of performances by the Vienna Philharmonic, with a different conductor for each selection.
1. Leonard Bernstein (DG) -- the delicacy of his second movement is to be treasured.
2. Carl Schuricht (
Archipel)
3. Pierre Monteux (Decca) -- fervent; and he divides the strings!
4. Simon Rattle (EMI)) -- By far the best of his cycle and one of the best around.
5. Carlos Kleiber (DG) -- OK, I surrender
6. Bruno Walter, AVID -- the apotheosis of geniality, if there is such a thing.
7. Herbert von Karajan ( Les Indispensables de Diapason, initially issued under RCA)
8. Karl Böhm (DG)
-- he certainly deserves a place at the table.
9. Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Decca) -- here we are in concordance: "last uns angenehmere anstimmen,
Und freudenvollere."
Let me give this a try:
1 - Zinman (Sharp, lithe, spritely)
2 - Szell (Clean, sharp, but already sounds like mature Beethoven)
3 - Klemperer (Classic. A real sense of occasion. the granite monument)
4- Toscanini (The live radio performance from 1939 on Naxos. It really sways and dances.)
5- Carlos Klieber (Come on! Classic! The sky opens up in the fourth movement)
6- Bruno Walter (So graceful, peaceful and calm. I want to go on vacation with Bruno)
7- Furtwangler (with the Berlin Phil wartime recording. I know. I know! But the tension is beyond my power to express)
8- Jochum (Rhythm, flow and fun. Probably my favorite Beethoven conductor over all)
9- Bernstein (The ode to Freedom when the wall came down. Note for note, it's not the best played, but the sense of occasion makes up for it)
@@allenwilliams1306 I was trying for a wide range of interpretations but perhaps you'd be safer with Ormandy, Jochum or Fricsay.
This is another great list. I have the Wand cycle on disc (my Dad performed with him a number of times and was far and away the best he worked with - a list including Bernstein, Kempe, Abbado, Haitink and many more).
But this ideal cycle now playlisted. And listening now!! The first movement of the Jarvi 1 is fabulous!!!
Totally agree about that Jochum Berlin 4th, marvellous. As are some of the others in that cycle and the Brahms cycle. For their age they sound amazing too.
I really like Kempe's 5th symphony with the Munich Philharmonic. He does this wonderful allargando into the second subject of the last movement that just seems so perfect. I've never heard anyone else do it and it gives me chills every time I hear it. He was a master of subtle phrasing effects.
Thanks Dave! I don’t have any of these. I bought my Beethoven early in my listening and they were the “thing” at that moment. I still like them, but I need something fresh and this list looks very promising!
Great tips. After listening several times to this recommended ideal cycle, I was able to find them all in Apple Music, my only doubt comes with the seventh, I got used to faster tempos in the fourth movement, I would have chosen Kleiber's but NOT the one with the Vienna Philharmonic but one in Orfeo with the Bayer Staatsorchester. And special thanks for mentioning this 9th, I would have never listened to that if not for this review and I have to admit, that recording is a lost gorgeous jewel, so, thank you for introducing it to me.
Schmidt Isserstedt beethoven cycle definitely needs to be reissued!
I am so happy that you mention the singing in Schmidt-Isserstedt's Ninth. I have a problem with most recordings of the Ninth in that the solo parts (especially the bass) are never really sung properly, no matter how famous the interpretation. The singers are always sounding like they are nervously circling around the notes but never really hit them. Not so in Mr. Sch-I.'s versio, which is fabulous.
What is it with those vocal parts that almost nobody seems to get them right?
They are almost impossible.
A couple notes: You are right, there are 36 ideal cycles one could make very easily. More difficult is to pin down clear, logical reasons for each choice. I simply don't have that kind of memory. No orchestras or conductors repeated here, and only one of my favorite cycles gets a "win" here:
1. CSO/Solti (first cycle). Has given many hours of pleasure over the years--not light or "early-period" in approach, but deft anyway. This is vigorous, energetic, yet mature and not rushed. Youthful Beethoven taken as an established great in a cycle highly consistent in gutsy attacks and beefy but singing lower strings, brilliant solo playing--all the essentials. A great, bold statement, not a tentative foray into Haydn's territory.
2. NHK/Matacic (Denon). Matacic makes Beethoven sing, and the test of a great 2nd for me is the lyricism of the second movement. Does the opening of that movement make me weep like Furtwangler does? Then it's a keeper. Matacic is also patient, not out to dazzle, and he keeps incredibly clear balances. I could have picked his famous 3rd, or his divine Czech 9th (sung in Czech). This is one I've lived with for years. I'm not in the mood for speed today: Matacic is all substance.
3. Hans Vonk/Saint Louis SO gets it right, bar after bar. An amazing orchestra, elegantly balanced and sound honed and polished to perfection. The conductor is unfairly portrayed as neutral and boring too often. This is full of warmth and judiciousness in service of a profound cumulative effect. A great Beethoven disc. I hate the fact that it doesn't last forever--to me that is the big statement of this heroic recording--not hero worship, not ego, but instead the eternal heroism of collective perseverance.
4. Carlos Kleiber/Bavarian Staatsorchester (Orfeo). Too bad no couplings on this release, originally, but it didn't matter. Carlos always smiles, and so, quite audibly, does his orchestra. Every note is going somewhere with a smile. I'm smiling. This is total joy.
5. Schuller/NY pick-up orchestra (GM). Of course, this is the perfect recording, accompaning the manual on conducting properly. Throw the book out: this is actually an exciting, superbly executed Beethoven. Muscular, fastidious, electric.
6. Erich Kleiber/Concertgebouw. A classic choice. He captures the flow of the first two movements with the bubbling enthusiasm of a real brook, and that's enough for me. Only his son (but at bizarrely breakneck speed) gets a similarly noteworthy effect.
7. Mravinsky/Leningrad (probably the later recording on Erato). I grew up with Toscanini/NYPSO, but the truth is I've grown to see the merits of a patiently powerful first movement. The Leningrad strings are bewitching in the slow movement, shaped for profundity; and the Finale has irresistible force and momentum. Rosbaud lurks as a runner-up.
8. Casals/Marlboro. Again, as in Mendelssohn on the flip side of the LP, palpable enthusiasm, which is what Beethoven's 8th is all about. Urgent but not rushed, energetic attacks, lots of weight, no slop..
9. Neumann/Czech Phil (Supraphon/Denon, 1989). The important thing is not that this somehow the best ever, but that It's live. That matters: if Beethoven 9 is not an occasion, if it really doesn't bring people together in brotherhood, then this piece isn't squat. So...here's a real occasion, conducted and played as a celebration of community. Unlike Bernstein in Berlin, this celebration of freedom two weeks prior is the real deal, musically. Tempi move at a good clip, phrasing soars as a result,, but savored, not rushed. The orchestra and choir refined, and the soloists (especially Benackova and Korn) are nearly perfect. Savor those big trombones in the finale: so plangent, even at full blast. Again, judiciousness is a winner in Beethoven. He packs plenty of extremes in the music, which is why he is (in my humble experience) uniquely exhausting to play. Like Mahler, no need to pile it on; just play on.
Any credit to Kirill Petrenko on the recent Berlin recording of the 7th? I find it astoundingly energetic! Maybe not consistent but the tempos and overall excitement are there.
Looking forward for IDEAL Dvořák cycle!
@@ACM214 What about earlier ones? They are awesome.
My picks:
1: Chailly/Leipzig (Decca); Leipzig has a great musical tradition, but Kurt Masur's cycles (whether in stereo, or quad, or in a box, or with a fox) put me to sleep. Now that the cycle is in a more manageable clamshell style box, it's also largely out-of-print, but it strikes me as much more interesting than say, this conductor's Brahms.
2: Schuricht/Paris Conservatory or Schuricht/OSR (EMI cycle or Decca singleton performance with OSR); I just love Schuricht in Beethoven, even though it's exclusively in mono (save for the Testament 9th issue). All of the music making is unblended, craggy, passionately executed, and well-recorded for its day.
3: Szell/Cleveland Orchetra (Sony Classical): I haven't really sat down with the Honeck performance yet, and so Szell gets my pick. Worth hearing for the coda of the finale alone, and it's always been a fairly easy and inexpensive performance to source.
4: Bohm/Vienna Philharmonic (DG); Possibly the finest performance of the cycle (though I love the Pastoral, too, and can't use it there now), this has some of the spontaneous excitement of say, Bohm's Dresden Schubert 9th or Tchaikovsky 4th or Orfeo. In other words, it's outstanding, and the Philharmonic plays splendidly.
5: Maazel/Berlin Philharmonic (DG Box or DG Eloquence); Surprise! I had no idea this performance existed before the staff at CT pointed it out (and Universal probably didn't know, either, if we're being completely honest). It's early Maazel, which usually means less weird Maazel, and this 5th may be his best recording from Berlin. The Sixth from around the same period is also excellent. Try to find the Eloquence disc unless you must own all of early Maazel in an over-large box of original jackets. Another unusual pick? Solti/Vienna on Decca Legends or Eloquence; early Solti in top form.
6: Kubelik/Orchestra de Paris (DG box, Universal Italy Box, DG Double, or Pentatone Quad); As serious collectors know, Kubelik's Beethoven gimmick was nine different orchestras for the cycle of nine symphonies. It's now in print in about 6 different ways--I didn't even mention the Japanese SACD set--after YEARS of not being available at all. Go figure. Because of the lack of sourcing for this set and the weird approach (to say nothing of the PR machine that was Karajan), DG never gave this set much attention. However, I think it's mostly excellent, and this Sixth is a wonderful surprise from an orchestra that has never much impressed me.
7: Blomstedt/Dresden Staatskapelle (Brilliant Classics or Berlin Classics); Possibly my favorite Seventh, with astonishing brass playing and beautifully captured sonics. Blomstedt is somehow underrated despite a lifetime of exceptional achievement, and both of his Beethoven cycles strike me as superb additions to the catalog. The whole cycle has always been pretty cheap and easy to find. Don't miss it. My sleeper pick? Dorati/London Symphony on Mercury Living Presence, which is simply beyond exciting, if not the most polished or subtle.
8: Vanska/Minnesota Orchestra (BIS SACD Hybrid, singly or in a box); Coupled on the single disc with a really fine if ever so slightly mannered 3rd, this set is A. The best Beethoven cycle on SACD, B. Possibly the best cycle with a period style sound on modern instruments, C. Still available and inexpensive. This 8th rocks, and the whole cycle is very consistent, right through to a somewhat hasty sounding 9th. Sleeper? Haitink on LSO Live, probably the best Beethoven he ever gave us--not that he set the bar especially high in earlier efforts.
9: Munch/Boston Symphony (RCA imports or Sony's recent and dumb Beethoven box; the big Munch box is mostly out-of-print): Now that it's not as ugly and boxy (the old BMG "Great Conductors' set was welcome but sounded lousy), I think this is a fun recommendation. Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin is a great fit and would still follow the rules of the game, but any excuse to remind people of how fine Munch was in Beethoven, Brahms, and the standard German stuff is an opportunity I won't miss. We all know Barenboim can conduct this stuff (even if he has less and less interesting to say), but it's increasingly clear to me as a 33-year old (as it has been to collectors for decades) that the so-called French specialists--Monteux, Martinon, Munch, etc--did some of their finest, most consistent, and DISTINCTIVE work elsewhere. This is about as subtle as a brick to the hood of your car, but far less expensive. Wand wasn't my pick, but he would have also fit the rules of the game (RCA/NDR Symphony). Other recommendations that didn't qualify because I'd already used them or their orchestras: Bohm/Vienna (First DG, the late, late one is awfully slow), Bernstein (DG, but not the tired---if well meant--Berlin Wall concert), Fricsay/Berlin (DG), Blomstedt (either one), Szell/Cleveland, Kubelik/Bavarian Radio (just as much a sleeper as the Sixth) and if you must, Karajan/Berlin (60s or 70s).
Brave selection! I specially appreciate your choice of the 9th. Munch was truly a discovery for me in Beethoven.
Thanks, very inspiring
I'm with your choices all the way...particularly Schuricht, my favorite set--craggy but everything perfectly judged, calibrated, and Bohm's cycle, similarly perfectly judged by more seductive. I go back to it often for an ear cleansing. Both are far from chaos or sloppy, but completely rejuvenating. The Maazel 5th and 6th in Berlin are also sadly forgotten and underrated.
Excellent!
Dear friend, I recently asked you if you had heard this Schmidt-Isserstedt novena: I had forgotten this video!! Thank you for your excellent review. I have the Japanese CD and the Vienna Philharmonic sounds delicious!
One of my favorite ninths without a doubt.
It’s very rewarding to know that everyone (even Mr. Hurwitz) has his blind spots: those much revered pieces of music that one cannot fully ‘get’, unless under exceptional interpretations that render them somehow accessible . Btw, the Eroica is not one of mines, but that’s beside the point. - Thanks again for this wonderful survey !!
One can but try!
I will have to buy, no 1, 3, 8 and 9. I already have the other, and I agreed with you.
Just to add though, thanks for the recommendation of Honeck for the 3rd. I had never heard it before but it is indeed a truly great performance!
My ideal Beethoven cycle:
1) Ančerl & Czech Phil.
2) Thielemann & VPO
3) Klemperer & Philharmonia (1959)
4) Harnoncourt & Concentus musicus
5) Furtwangler & BPO (1954)
6) Böhm & VPO
7) C. Kleiber & Bayerisches Staatsorchester
8) Karajan & BPO (80s)
9) Barenboim & SKB
Just located a copy on Decca Ovation (used). Also picked up all the rest of his Beethoven Symphonies on the Decca Weekend Series.........thanks for the recommendation Dave.
I totally agree with your comments about the vocals in the finale of the 9th symphony - these days I just play the first 3 movements and treat it as Beethoven’s majestic ‘Unfinished’. Maybe someone could rework the whole movement and tone down the vocals or remove them altogether. I would buy it - to help complete my ‘ideal ‘ cycle.
Still I was delighted to see you select the Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt/VPO version as your top choice here. I had his cycle on vinyl back in 1970 and I thought it had been forgotten ever since.
I;m so glad you feel the same way I do about the Carlos Kleiber Beethoven 5th. I too feel that it's very good, but not one of the absolute bests! Finally somebody important and influential who agrees with me about this.
And yay, you like Klemperer's Beethoven 6! So do I!
I'm in agreement here. I've tried and tried, but have yet to appreciate the Kleiber 5th, or 7th.
I too find Kleiber's 5th terribly overrated. Merely because he drives the music harder than anyone else, like a Ferrari at maximum torque, doesn't make it the best. Far from it. It's a hard driven slog of a performance stripped of charm or personality, as Dave says.
Here we go, with plenty motivation:
1. Marriner/ASMF (1970, Philips): Before that boring complete cycle, Marriner set down 1 and 2 for Philips, and those are very fine performances. He is elegant, not too fast, and light on his feet, despite boasting pleasantly present timpani. Modern performances often rush through the first. I like Marriner's middle-of-the-road approach.
2. Järvi/DKB (2007, RCA): Actually, I prefer Vänskä here, but he comes up later, and Järvi does something similar: Stay fleet, give the music punch and bounce, and make it sound like fun. There are some fine "classic" recordings, too. Bernstein always had fun with it, and Karajan sounds surprisingly alive in his 1980's cycle (probably because he wanted to get it over with), but they hardly compare to the period-influenced school in this work. How many performances can convince you for a moment that the second is your favourite Beethoven symphony?
3. Szell/CO (1957, CBS): Yes. (Edit: Just listened to Honeck - wore down the edge of my seat. I still prefer Szell for his longer rests and more natural phrasing, but Honeck undoubtedly ranks amongst the best. Incidentally, did anyone notice him emitting that Chelibidachian ‘Hee!’ at 2:03 and 4:54 in the first movement? What a remarkable similarity.
4. Jansons/BRSO (2012, BR Klassik): A very pleasant surprise. Jansons' live Beethoven cycle is not exactly the stuff of legends, but in this fourth he combines the Bavarian big-orchestra sound with a discipline and wit that remind me of his Symphonic Dances and Leningrad Symphony. The first movement transition in particular has great swagger.
5. Doráti/LSO (1962?, Mercury Living Presence): Since Szell, Klemperer, Kleiber, and Vänskä are occupied elsewhere, let's pick a dark horse. Doráti's is not the best-played fifth, but his conception of the music is magnificent. The choice of tempi is ideal, and remarkable attention is paid to bass lines and woodwind textures. Great recording, too.
6. Klemperer/PO (1957, EMI): I agree with everything Mr. Hurwitz said. The first movement has never sounded so pastoral, and note how its relative slowness is offset by an uncommonly flowing Scene by the Brook. The plump Länder he turns the scherzo into has humour in abundance; the storm is perfectly paced; and the finale glows like no other. Böhm, Walter, and Szell (Cleveland) are great too, but Klemperer is special.
7. Kleiber/VPO (1978, DG): Very picky about the seventh. A conductor really must take the outer movement repeats, otherwise the first is overloaded by its introduction and the humorous transition to the finale's development section makes no sense. So Szell is out. Drive is second. Nobody since Toscanini pushes the first movement as vigourously as Kleiber, and his sense of controlled suspense in the finale is riveting. Such a pity he bungles the allegretto's final notes.
8. Vänskä/MO (2008, BIS): Shocked when I heard it. This is simply my platonic ideal of the eighth. Let me pick three moments to exemplify its brilliance: 1. Vänskä balances the awkward first movement climax just perfectly; 2. He doesn't take the allegretto too fast (most of the humour goes lost in recordings by, say, Szell and Harnoncourt); 3. He captures the minuet's swagger and lilt whilst infusing it with a certain kindness that reminds me of Bruno Walter. And that's keeping it to three. It may be "only" Beethoven 8, with "only" the Minnesota Orchestra, conducted by "only" Osmo Vänska, but it may well be my favourite recording of anything ever. Excellent cycle overall, by the way. His second, fourth, fifth, and seventh are top drawer material as well.
9. Furtwängler/BF (1951, EMI): Well, shoot me. But allow me to explain before you do. Furtwängler's conception of the ninth was truly unique. The way he paces the outer movements is not at all in accordance with what Beethoven wrote, but I think it turns out more coherent -- more overwhelming to me, at least. Yes, the woodwinds are sour in the adagio and the Philharmonia plays better in Luzern, but I prefer the orchestral balances in Bayreuth. This recording is just unique, and if Beethoven's ninth isn't supposed to sound like this... well, then I prefer Furtwängler's ninth.
Intrigued by your list having done mine. We overlap on only one - No 7. But I was drawn to your comment about the allegretto's final notes. Are you referring to the fact that he maintains the pizzicato strings to the end? Apparently it is a "valid" reading according to those who should know. Klemperer does the same and apparently so did Carlos' old man Erich. Anyway, having heard it that way I find "conventional" readings wrong. But maybe that just reflects my bias towards Kleiber and Klemperer. I too like the Dorati 5th and the Furtwangler 9th. My list includes the Currentzis 5th and Norrington in the 1st so let's hope neither of us gets shot! Best wishes.
I agree about Furwangler's conception, but his Lucerne Festival recording realizes it best, and in the best sound. If you like Bayreuth better, that's fine. At least it's not embarrassing.
@@marmaladejinx Yes, it was the pizzicato I meant. I know it is tollerated this way, but it never sounded right to me.
I fear your list is no longer visible to the public eye, but I don't think your choices are bad. Interestingly, Currentzis' fifth is about the diametric opposite of Doráti's: It survives entirely on account of the playing, rather than the conductor's charisma. No matter how slick and cold Currentzis is, heavens, those MusicAeterna people can play.
I'm personally no fan of Norrington's conception of Beethoven, but if any symphony can stand it, it'd be the first. I do hope you have picked his Stuttgart performance, however. His LCP cycle comes from a time when period ensembles were still learning, and suffers from ragged phrasing ans poor internal balances. When The Guardian wrote that it sounded like a revolution, what they meant must have been a lot of people shouting through each other.
Vanska also did some excellent Beethoven on a couple of BBC discs, including, I think, another fine 8th. He does it well in Minnesota too--a really fine, consistent orchestra. I don't know the Dorati, though--I will try it.
no 'hee' on my recording =D
Ok, here goes (rolls up sleeves):
1. Bernstein VPO
2. Beecham RPO
3. Klemperer (the mono one)
4. C. Kleiber Bav. Staatsorchester
5. Szell VPO live (this one even beats Cleveland, so sorry for the repeated Orchestra)
6. Cluytens BPO (1955)
7. Toscanini NYPO (1936)
8. Schuricht Paris
9. Munch Boston
Just listened to Honeck 3. Absolutely one of the great recordings ever made. Detail of instrumentation with purpose is beyond belief. Recording engineers deserve a gold star (several). All of us have heard this music a million times. guarantee you'll hear stuff in this performance you've never heard before--maybe only in your dreams You're certainly right about Pittsburg horn section being the best anywhere. #4 guy played in St. Louis 20 years ago--best low horn player ever. If I were the Chicago Symphony, I'd give Honeck a hard look after Muti leaves. The guy shows depth and technique. Thanks for another transcendental recommendation.
So glad you agree!
Dave - greetings from the Penal Colonies. Here are my selections, most of which are anachronistic in this age of the Clipped Phrase.
1 - Sawallisch & Concertgebouw
2 - Barenboim
3 - Paul Van Kempen - what a Funeral March !
4 Klemperer & Philharmonia October 1957
5 Karajan & Berliners in Moscow 1969. To burn down the house.
6 Jochum Concertgebouw December 1968
7 Carlos Kleiber & Vienna Phil
8 Kna & Berlin Phil (RIAS recording).
9 Fricsay & Berlin Phil
Bonus points for naming that intense van Kempen. The last movement is also a winner...incredible.
@@jeffrosenfeld5781 Thank you for the comment Jeff. Yes, the finale is miraculous too. It is easily my favourite Eroica. What about the eruption of the double basses in the development of the funeral march - what a moment!!!!
Will be catching up with your choices. Always enjoy the Amazon reviews and rants, Bernard. May the Bruckner Society remain Heaven-sent.
@@jackatherton0111 Jack that is very good of you. Thanks for your kind words, B
I grew up with the Szell/Cleveland recording of the Ninth, and even after listening to some others, including Karajan's 1977 recording, I keep coming back to it. Also, what's your take on Leonard Bernstein's NYPO recording of the Eroica?
That's a topic for another time!
Another very useful talk, but how does this one differ from your previous talk on the best Beethoven symphonies (where you chose Blomstedt for Symphony#1), e.g., which is the authoritative Hurwitz take on this subject?
The talks on individual symphonies obviously discuss many other recordings, and are valuable for more than just the single final choice.
My ears are miraculously opened. Jochum's 4th (oh, mine is LSO not BPh), Marcovitch's 5th, Schmidt-Isserstedt's 9th, so fresh and new. The elephantine finale of the 9th is held together by the total faith of all concerned in Schiller's message. I wish deconstructors like Claus Guth would realize that Beethoven has to be taken on his own terms or not at all. Thank you, Mr Hurwitz.
You're very welcome! I glad you enjoyed those performances.
1. Mackerras/Scottish Chamber
2. Blomstedt/Dresden
3. Szell/Cleveland
4. Bohm/VPO
5. C. Kleiber/VPO
6. Klemperer/Philharmonia
7. Bernstein/VPO
8. Kletzki/Czech
9. Solti/Chicago (72)
Thank You! For choosing the Beethoven Ninth with Schmidt-Issersedt...my all time favorite recording, had it originally on cassette, wore it out! finally was able to track it down on cd..a cherished item! Ty! for choosing it!
I love the Honeck Eroica! Some people pan the recording as being too fast but I love the energy.
Oh for heaven's sake, that is just plain nonsense.
After watching David's channel for a year and a half now, I have finally mustered the courage to build my own ideal list, for Beethoven's symphonies! Now, because David wrapped his talk of symphonies 1 and 2 into one video, I have used that to unlock my ability to create an ideal list (with no relative dips in quality in my opinion):
1/2: Blomstedt/Staatskapelle Dresden
3: Szell/Cleveland
4: Böhm/Vienna Philharmonic
5: Markevitch/Lamoureux
6: Walter/Columbia
7: Jarvi/Deutches Kammerphilharmonie Bremen
8: Kletzki/Czech Philharmonic
9: Fricsay/Berlin Philharmonic
Totally agree about 6 & 9. As for 7, ever heard the Casals/Marlboro?
Any clue as to where to find some of these? Looking for the 5th but that download doesn't seem to be purchasable anywhere, and there are no cd stores anywhere anymore.
In the eroica my favorite is a new arrival, a very new arrival. Jordi saval. But not in the disk that included only this symphony. Rather, on the disks that collect beethoven's first five symphonies. I love this set, but especially the eroica. Fast, vibrant, exciting. I can't stop hearing this performance since I heard it first. It's just so... wow. What do you think of the set and of the eroica there?
Honestly, I haven't listened to that Eroica in years. I enjoyed it when it was released, but there are so many excellent versions available that I guess it didn't strike me as special enough to warrant further attention. However, if I heard it again now I might well feel differently, so I don't want to talk about it (or any of the other performances) without the fresh experience of listening in my ears.
Pardon me if this member of the loyal opposition arrives in gadfly mode, bearing two quotations from L. van B. himself:
(1) When asked, albeit prior to writing the 9th, what his own personal favourite was of the ones he had written, he immediately replied, "The Eroica". [Well, to quibble, he would have said the equivalent in his native German tongue, but the basic idea remains]. When pressed by his inquisitor to clarify, with the abashed questioner expostulating, "Surely you mean the 5th", Beethoven adamantly retorted, "No, the Eroica".
(2) When asked to explain why the 7th was so much more popular than the 8th, he sneered, "Because the 8th is the better work".
Ha! //
Finally, there IS one way to go wrong in purchasing a Beethoven symphony recording--- buy, as I foolishly did in my youth, a very dismal LP of the Munich Symphony Orchestra playing the 5th, with a conductor whose name I mercifully cannot recall, sparing the blushes of the guilty party...
My first 5th and 9th were scratchy cheap LPs back in 1965 (Saga label) and I stupidly listened to them for years as if they were what those symphonies were all about... Much later I was taken by Karajan's 1970s 5th and 9th. I like the way Mr Hurwitz refers to Sir Donald Tovey, who was my guide to the classical repertoire back then, and who gave a very good orientation to its structures and textures.
I'd like to see your take on the best Beethoven Symphony recordings MOVEMENT by MOVEMENT! Which Conductor did the best first movement, which the best second etc. I've found some recordings where I was unmoved by three out of four movements but floored by another, and I thought it might be fun to put together the "ideal" symphonies Movement by Movement. Whaddaya say?
Never!
Hahaha, everyone would like to see that, but that's an enormous ammount of work you're asking for. You have to listen to each conductor movement by movement, say like 50 conductors squares 38, you can do the counting. Apart from listening to it, you have to take into account the comparing. That probably means listening to one piece more often than once to get to the Ideal one eventually. I was thinking about doing something like that for myself too, but I came to the conclusion that it would be idiocy. To determine only one symphony like that would already be a Sisyphean task. You can't ask David to do that, shame on you!
Hello Dave! Thank you so very much for all your erudite and entertaining music reviews. I love every one of them! To add to the fun and I hope add to the intellectual discussion, allow me please to add my own list:
1. Schuricht. We have to recognize Schuricht somewhere here. So why not the First.
2. Beecham. A legend from the day it was first issued.
3. Toscanini 1939. Okay the sound is a challenge but you'll get used to it. No other version gets the work so right.
4. Walter. Walter has to be here somewhere, right. His Fourth is as good as any.
5. Honeck. IMHO this is even better than his Third. It's an astonishingly great recording.
6. Monteux. There are so many wonderful Pastorales. I chose Monteux from musical and sentimental considerations. I saw him conduct the work in the early 1960s with the Boston Symphony. Monteux could barely walk on and off the stage but his performance was one of the greatest of anything I've ever heard in person.
7. Cantelli. His only complete recording of a Beethoven symphony. What he could have given us had he lived a full life.
8. Klemperer. The first movement development blew me away when I first heard it, and his recording has been my favorite ever since.
9. Tennstedt live. There are at least two from London, but his greatest is his with the Minnesota Orchestra. Hearing this will erase any lingering doubts that Tennstedt was one of the all time greats.
Thank you again, Dave.
Thanks for sharing this with us.
I wouldn't say this is necessarily the best 9th, but one that I've played for a few friends that has got them hooked on classical music is Munch's recording on RCA. A barnburner that sounds like the concert hall is on fire!
Love it! The angriest first movement ever, and my review is printed on the back of the CD case.
Munch's recording has a superb vocal quartet: Leontyne Price, Maureen Forrester, David Poleri, and Giorgio Tozzi. Poleri is excellent in the tenor solo, a passage that is often badly done even by big-name tenors. My only quibble would be the third movement, which I think is not as well characterized as the others.
1: Skrowaczewski (Oehms)
2: Szell (Sony)
3: Klemperer II (EMI)
4: Bohm (DG)
5: Honeck (Reference Recordings)
6: Walter II (Sony)
7: Dohnanyi (Telarc)
8: P. Jarvi (RCA)
9: Leinsdorf (RCA)
hello David, thanks for this posting.
What do you thing of JuanJo Mena directing the 7th at the BBC? De Gustibus non disputandum est, I just don't like Szell's version that much. Thanks.
I have no opinion at all. I think we should listen first and opine afterwards!
I did listen to both at least 5 times. Juanjo still my favorite. Thanks for your reply. @@DavesClassicalGuide
Decca actually did collect all Schmidt-Isserstedt's Beethoven VPO symphonies in an 8-cd box with the piano concertos (Backhaus), the violin concerto (Szeryng) and 3 ouvertures. Sadly, the box is nla - that is, sadly for you, as it graces my cd-shelves. But you may have luck in finding it second- hand!
And talking about the question of availability, what happened to the ethos of that? The japanese box with Markevitch's Beethoven symphonies on DG is totally impossible to find, even on Amazon-Japan?! Any Idea, how to get hold of that, David?
I have the Schmidt-Isserstedt box, and until quite recently Markevitch was available (albeit as an import) domestically. I take no responsibility for where things get to; I can only try. Anyway, it will be back next year when Eloquence does it's Markevitch DG box, so I'm not too worried. No sane person would want to be without that.
Hear, hear...looking very much foreward to that Australian Eloqunce compilation!
Available as a Download from Presto Classical No CDs anymore.
In listening to Beethoven 3rd symphony with Honneck and PSO, they play well and I would put this performance as modeled after Szell. I see elements of Szell here.
Hi David, I love your videos and this one was particularly fascinating. Please keep them coming.
Question about Beethoven 9. Why do so many conductors ignore the french horns in the crescendo of the second movement. Just listen to Szell or Bohm (1970s) and the horns rasp out - it is so exciting. Yet for the vast majority the horn gets lost in the mix despite there being a clear crescendo in the score. Personally I feel that my library choice must have the horns clearly audible in the 2nd movement. Bernstein and the Vienna Phil just about get away with it - and what a performance that is. Szell has the best second movement but is let down by the choir and soloists in the 4th. My library choice has to be Bohm with the Vienna Philharmonic. The most transparent and musical performance I’ve heard.
I don't think Szell is let down by anyone, certainly not the choir. I have no idea why some conductors treat the horns differently, but as you note, they do.
How does this Jochum cycle (which you recommend here for the 4th) compare to the one you recommended in the “Best”Beethoven cycle video you posted 10 months ago?
It's much older and with two orchestras, and some of it is mono; I prefer the later one for sonics. The interpretations are much the same.
Hi Dave, a superbly informative and irresistably passionate presentation again. Let me add my choices:
1. Scherchen/Vienna State Opera Orchestra (DG)
2. Leibovitz/RPO (Chesky)
3. Szell/Cleveland O. (Sony)
4. Kubelik/Israel PO (DG)
5. P.Järvi/Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen (RCA)
6. Ivan Fischer/Budapest Festival O. (Channel Classics)
7. Monteux/LSO (RCA/Decca)
8. W. Steinberg/Pittsburgh SO (Capitol)
9. Vänskä/Minnesota O. (BIS)
finally Leibowitz is mentioned. His 9th is exciting too.
@@cedat1395 Leibowitz is fantastic! And excellently recorded too. Wilkinson was on it, after all.
Of the performances in his cycle, I think his 7th is my favorite.
I couldn't agree more about Barenboim's Dresden cycle and Honeck's stunning Eroica. I like Chailly's zippy Beethovens with the Leipzig Gewandhaus, but you've got to have Barenboim for balance. My favorite 5th remains Carlos Kleiber with the VPO, despite your misgivings: it always strikes me as right in every way. (But I like Markevitch's recordings so I must seek out his version.)
Oh wow! One could write a book about this! By the way, a secret to a good performance of the Eroica…don’t try and fix it. Now the list:
1. Walter with whatever. Courtly, fun, cute, charming, rascally!
2. Jocum with Berlin (It’s exciting and perfect and really hard to find)
3. Dorati with Minneapolis (it has a “band” kind of sound and the excitement of playing experimental music) (Yeah, it really can still sound experimental)
4. Barenboim with Dresden
5. Ah! The big one! René Leibowitz with the Royal Philharmonic
6. Bernstein with New York
7. Solti with Chicago (He treats it like a Jerry Goldsmith soundtrack) Szell is my number two.
8. von Karajan with Berlin (It is another symphony that works best when you don’t screw with it)
9. The other big one! It’s Klemperer all the way, baby! Otto with the Philharmonia. Or New Philharmonia or whatever. 🎩
Schuricht! I can’t believe I’ve left one of my favorites out! Szell! Ormandy! (Yeah, I said it…Ormandy)
1. Bruggen
2. Wand
3. Kletzki
4. Jochum (Berlin)
5. Klemperer (Vienna Philharmonic live)
6. Bohm
7. Reiner
8. Monteux
9. Schuricht
1: Haitink LSO
2: Beecham RPO
3: Szell CLE
4: Toscanini BBC
5: Honeck Pgh
6: Sawallisch Concertgebouw
7: Kleiber VPO
8: Blomstedt Leipzig
9: Fricsay BPO
My proposed cycle:
1. Harnoncourt /COE
2. Monteux / LSO
3. Baremboim / Staatskapelle Berlin
4. Szell / Cleveland
5. Kempe / Munich
6. Giulini/ Los Angeles PO
7. Klemperer / Philharmonia
8. Barshai / Moscow CO (I confess it is because it was the first one I learned the work with)
9. Solti / Chicago SO (the one with Pilar Lorengar)
Kempe is a very satisfying set...glad you mentioned it.
Suggestion for your next Tinnitus recording: Beethoven's Choral Symphony with mute soloists. Could be a big market!
Good idea!
I'm not a huge Beethoven fan so I haven't done as much listening as the rest of you regarding this composer. My list may be a bit sophomoric.
1: Blomstedt/San Francisco Symphony (Decca)
2. Gardiner/Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique (Archiv Produktion)
3. Harnoncourt/Chamber Orchestra of Europe (Teldec)
4. Dohnányi/Cleveland Orchestra (Telarc)
5. Barenboim/Berliner Staatskapelle (Teldec)
6. Wand/NDR-Sinfonieorchester (RCA)
7. Kleiber/Wiener Philharmoniker (Deutsche Grammophon)
8. Chailly/Leipzig Gewandhausorchester (Decca)
9. Jochum/Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks (Deutsche Grammophon)
would anyone be kind enough to send me a link/timestamp for the eroica moment david refers to
Wow, and I thought I would be the only one with my feelings about the "Eroica".
And here is my cycle.
1) Harnoncourt / Chamber Orchestra of Europe - fresh and exciting with a flavor of Haydn.
2) Jansons / Bayerischer Rundfunk - because he gives the work the weight it deserves.
3) Klemperer / Philharmonia - I think, the hard way with sharp edges is best.
4) Kubelik / Israel Philharmonic - for me the best making move, because the driving forward has energy without being exaggerated.
5) Szell - no comment needed.
6) Bernstein / Vienna Philharmonic - and I do know all arguments against it. BUT to me, Bernstein interprets the work from a point of view which includes all what the "Pastorale" started, and nevertheless it seems to me not overinterpreted. It's the begin of romantic music, and Berlioz is looking around the corner. I like this interpretation very much, although I know, it's far away from "correct".
7) To me, the 2nd movement is a problem. It's marked Allegretto, and I think, Beethoven knew, what he meant. It isn't just the tempo, but also the character of the movement: neither heavy nor slow, like Karajan does it, and Carlos Kleiber is never and nowhere really convincing for me. There is a technically very bad video with Markevitch - that would be "my" tempo. But so, Paavo Järvi is closest to my taste.
8) And now Markevitch, no words to lose.
Foregive me, I hate ties, but I stand up for a moment.
9) Sitting down again, I plead for Jochum / Concertgebouw, because this recording gives the work the ethos and all its greatness. But I must add that Wand (and Kubelik, which would be a 2nd nomination for him, I know) are in nearly the same way dear to me.
Szell, yes...but which 5th? Vienna Phil? Chicago? Concertgebouw? Cleveland? All of your choices are potential favorites for me except the Jarvi, which I haven't heard yet (have two other of his Beethoven discs, and heard him conduct two different outstanding Eroicas).
@@jeffrosenfeld5781 Good question. I prefer the one with Cleveland. I like the sharper edges of the orchestra. The others are also very good - with exception of Vienna. To be precise: Szell is good, but the Vienna Philharmonic sounds wonderful, but for me it's not the right Beethoven-sound. I like the hard-edged revoltionary sound with a relation of trumpety and timpani, sharp woodwinds and strings, no melting together. The Vienna Philharmonic makes great sound, but a sound of melting colors. Szell's Cleveland-sound is in a certain way my sound for Beethoven's 5th. I prefer it less fe in the 6th.
@@edwinbaumgartner5045 Your reasoning makes sense to me. I'd add that the 6th is a highlight of the Cleveland set...but for me, because of the perfection of clarinetist Robert Marcellus and other woodwind-related moments.
@@jeffrosenfeld5781 Oh yes, it IS very good, and my listening life would be poorer without it. But in this case, I like the romantic flavor of Bernstein in Vienna (I don't like it fe in 5 and 7). Szell was wonderful in all Beethoven. In my opinion, one needs Szell and Klemperer, all others are welcomed supplements.
@@edwinbaumgartner5045 I like that same approach. When I started buying CDs I generally liked to find two complementary approaches--such as Szell and Klemperer--rather than simply look for one or a "central" compromise. It helps to represent the range of possibilities, and prevents your ears from getting "settled" into just one narrow approach. Generally my "needs" were Furtwangler and Szell, and others were supplements. That's changed somewhat in the ensuing years.
1: Zinman, Tonhalle Orchester Zurich (RCA)
2: Haitink, London Symphony Orchestra (LSO)
3: Szell, Cleveland Orchestra (Sony)
4: Barenboim, Berlin Staatskapelle (Teldec)
5: Harnoncourt, Chamber Orchestra of Europe (Teldec)
6: Vänskä, Minnesota Orchestra (BIS)
7: Böhm, Vienna Philharmonic (DG)
8: Järvi, Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen (RCA)
9: Wand, NDR-Sinfonieorchester (RCA)
I'm also not particurlarly aroused by the 3rd - it would rank very low on a one-to-nine list for me.
To which of Bernstein's Eroica were you referring to? New York Phil or Wiener Philharmonie?
I hope, Honeck's and Szell's 3rd will change my mind!
Bernstein/Sony--and whether the others are good or not depends on how you like the piece, so I'm not commenting.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Does a mere mortal man need more than three versions of the Eroica?
Hi David, don't you have any video on the 3rd "Eroica"? I have not found it.
Not yet.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Your answer gives me hope to see him in the near future. Oh, and thanks for answering!
1. Jarvi (you nailed that one)
2. Mengelberg
3. Klemperer/Köln or Royal Danish
4. Harnoncourt/CMW
5. Szell/Dresden
6. Blomstedt/Dresden
7. Furtwangler '43
8. Szell/Philharmonia
9. Wand
Well, at least I got one right.
@@DavesClassicalGuide D'oh! I put Szell down twice.... Change 5 to PCO/Schuricht!
saw thumbnail, got concerned about dresscode on the 9th, got to the 9th and my concerns were allayed
Honeck's 3rd is about $30 or more everywhere 😢
Once again, my apologies for this late comment. Your choices are very sound and I have no argument with any of them. Here is my alternative ideal list:
1 - Bernstein/VPO
2 - Vanska
3 - Szell
4 - Haitink/LSO
5 - Maazel/BPO
6 - Bohm/VPO
7 - Reiner
8 - Blomstedt/Dresden
9 - Fricsay
I listened to Honeck's stunning Beethoven 3 ; very crisp,well balanced, and extremely well played, with great engineering and great impact at climactic points,one of the best versions I've heard recently.Also heard the Markevitch recording of the Beethoven 5. I like it but do not necessarily prefer it to Maazel/BPO, Reiner, Kleiber, or Wand; recording is good but a little dated.
Ok, here is my instinctive ones without thinking too much. Which is probably the best way to do Beethoven. Do not think there is any weak links here.
Symphony No 1. Charles Mackerras/Scottish Chamber Orchestra
Symphony No.2 Andre Cluytens (EMI, Royal Classics)
Symphony No.3 Schmidt-Isserstedt WPO
Symphony No.4 Bernstein NYPO
Symphony No.5 Tennstedt LPO
Symphony No. 6 - Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra
Symphony No.7 C.Davis/RPO (EMI)
Symphony No.8 - Jochum, London Symphony Orchestra
Symphony No.9 Ferenc Fricsay, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Really enjoy your videos. I have just one complaint though. If you present before the gong, you must at some point hit the gong. ;-)
Oh, I have, but I will do it again.
An odd question! Who's your favourite composer?
I have none.
However, your videos do suggest a much deeper affection for Haydn than for anyone else...
The greatest problem with finding great recordings is...actually finding great recordings. Jochum is super duper! But those recordings are hard to find and, as they’ve been deleted from the catalog, very expensive when you do find them.
Oh, just to add: The Honeck and the Schmidt-Isserstedt are on my to-buy-list.
Yay! I hope you love them.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'm sure I will.
I hold a higher opinion of the third than you seem to, but agree that it doesn't play itself. Few performances satisfy me. I haven't yet come upon one I consider 'ideal' start to finish. It doesn't help that the third is the one Beethoven symphony I feel cries out for prominent, well played natural horns (or modern horns stopped when appropriate). I can and do enjoy performances with modern horns played 'normally', and dislike some performances with natural horns. But I always notice and almost always regret their absence. If judged solely by its opening movement, my personal favorite third to date is Chailly/Gewandhausorchester. Fast and furious, very exciting. The second is on the fast side too, always pushing forward. I like it, but don't consider it ideal. The third movement comes off well too. Alas, the final movement lets me down. Still fast, but here it feels rushed rather than driven. Too, during the section with pizzicato strings Chailly has them switch to bows earlier than usual, a decision I dislike. In the end, my hunt for an ideal third continues.
My personal preferences:
No. 1: Staatskapelle Dresden/Herbert Blomstedt (Brilliant Classics)
No. 2: Wiener Philharmoniker/Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Deutsche Grammophon)
No. 3: Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra/Bernard Haitink (Philips Classics)
No. 4: Chicago Symphony Orchestra/Georg Solti (Decca)
No. 5: Gewandhausorchester Leipzig/Riccardo Chailly (Decca)
No. 6: Staatskapelle Dresden/Wolfgang Sawallisch (EMI Classics)
No. 7: Staatskapelle Dresden/Sir Colin Davis (Philips Classics)
No. 8: Staatskapelle Dresden/Herbert Blomstedt (Brilliant Classics; sorry for the repeat)
No. 9: Academy of St. Martin in the Fields/Sir Neville Marriner (Philips Classics)
No. 9 Soloists: Karita Mattila (soprano); Anne Sofie von Otter (contralto); Francisco Araiza (tenor); Samuel Ramey (bass)
1. Mackerras - I do not know Jarvi - but Mackerras for the same reasons you gave. Chailly is very close
2. Klemperer - Speaking of german tradition :)
3. Karajan 1963 - Klemperer in the II Mov.
4. Leonard Bernstein NYP (the symphony I listen less) but who has more rhythm?
5. Wand (agree about Kleiber 100%)
6. Bruno Walter (the 5th and the 6th were comparatively easier to choose)
7. Colin Davis RPO - Krivine (best original cycle) is great with original instruments (what a recording) - Szell is really very good in all movements - could be him - have to listen both again
8. Wand (do not know Kletzki) oh no! again Wand
9. Fricsay (another "easy choice")
I'm listening to Wands fifth now, the first movement is stunning, I'm curious about the rest now.
One of my ideals:
1. Harnoncourt
2. Bruggen
3. Manze
4. Gardiner
5. Krips
6. Celibidache
7. Mackerras
8. Ansermet
9. Fricsay
I think that Decca did rerelease the Schmidt-Isserstedt cycle. Just checked on Presto Classical
Cool!
Yes, I found it at Presto C A search for Beethoven Schmidt-Isserstedt brought up his complete Beethoven cycle and 9th symphony separately.
@@rogergersbach3300 I never heard of Schmidt-Isserstedt till yesterday, but his Ninth mvnts 3 and 4 have amazed me, and I hope this discussion here will launch him to his deserved place in the firmament of fame.
Well coming rather late to the party on this one, but hey here's my pick:
1st, Orchestra 18th Century/Bruggen (witty, beautifully paced performance - try to find coupled with his stella Mozart 40th!)
2nd, LCP/Norrington. The first installment in his disappointing EMI cycle. However this was truly great - lithe, exciting, fresh as paint. Norrington before PP ideology made things a nonsense.
3rd, BPO/Cluytens. feels part of a whole, fresh conception, rather than usual plod - light years better than Karajan's '63 version
4th, BPO/ Karajan '63. Wonderful version - the rapt stillness at the beginning of the first movement is magical.
5th, VPO/Klieber. Actually would have had Cluytens again but this will do😉
6th, PO/Klemperer. Just sublime although so is Cluytens
7th, RPO/Davis. A young Colin Davis, with the RPO in terrific form. The horns really blaze out.
8th, Pittsburgh/Steinberg. Real find this one and his cycle is no slouch either.
9th....oh dear..tough choice as so many great versions. Going for one that recently impressed and the more I've heard it the better it gets. Staatskapelle, Berlin/Vonk. A performance greater than the sum of it's parts. Terrifically exciting (in the scherzo timpani really cut through). Great culmination in the finale.
My noob-level cycle:
1st: Bernstein, NYPO - SONY! (Holy Cow! What a nuke! HOT!)
2nd: Szell, Cleveland - SONY (The Ultimate Imprint)
3rd: Honeck! (slightly ahead of Monteux, RCO)
4th: Kletzki, CzPO - Supraphon (!HOT! HANDLE WITH CARE)
5th: Markevitch, Lamoureux - DG (Igor
My two cents:
1. Weil/Tafelmusik. Right now, my favorite period instrument cycle. They use more vibrato than most.
2. Wand/NDR
3. Toscanini/NBC. The live version from 1953.
4. Monteux/LSO. There's a live version from Boston that is even better.
5. Cantelli/NBC. Live from 1954. Way better than the one he was working on with the Philharmonia before he died.
6. Walter/Columbia Sym. When I first heard it, I could not believe it was Walter conducting. Not too slow at all.
7. Bernstein/NYP. The second recording from the late 1960s.
8. Kubelik/Cleveland. I love the forwardly placed tympani.
9. Schmidt-Isserstedt/VPO.
Oh yes to NBC/Cantelli 5th and Monteux's live 4th. Once you go the live route, choices get even more interesting.
Wondering why Cluytens Beethoven seems to get overlooked here, both in your complete cycles review and in this ideal cycle as well. It's been a long time since I listened to his Berlin recordings, and I've not listened the whole way through, but I thought the Eroica was very good, and the Pastoral absolutely fabulous (better than Klemp, IMHO, but not Szell, who also seems underrated in the Pastoral, getting not just the woodwinds right, but everything right). What struck me about Cluytens Beethoven was that it was with the Berlin Phil from around the same time as Karajan, but was really unfairly eclipsed by the latter, since I thought Cluytens was better in most respects.
I almost put his 6 on my list, I love the French tradition with a German orchestra but I chose the even more underrated Walter Weller. I have Cluytens too. He really has a beautiful and lyrical way with each symphony. 6 and 8 are personal favs.
I'm late to this one, but I had to comment after hearing the remarks on the Eroica. I have also had some difficulty with that symphony. It is loaded with wonderful musical ideas, but it is also a mess. It's nice to hear someone else acknowledge that the Eroica is somewhat problematic. I might have to pick up the Honeck recording even though I already have sixteen recordings of it. None of the recordings in my collection have truly blown me away, though I've enjoyed many of them. Most recently, I listened to the 1940 Mengelberg recording. It's a strange one, and I have mixed feelings about it. At times, it is exciting, but at other times, it burns out my ears and makes me want to destroy something. It also has 1940 sound quality, which isn't exactly ideal. I think a top notch performance in modern sound will make for a more pleasant listening experience.
Incidentally, I have the Schmidt-Isserstedt ninth. Some time ago, I bought a reasonably priced digital download from Presto called "Decca Sound: The Analogue Years 1954-1968." It is about 30 hours of music, with a lot of good stuff, and the Schmidt-Isserstedt ninth is buried deep within it. As of this writing, it is still available, and it is still inexpensive. On Presto Music, this set appears to be the only way to get this performance of the ninth. It's been a while since I've listened to it (I've been drawn more to the sixth and seventh lately). I'll have to give it a go and see what I think.
David, would you consider a contest where the rules of diversity are taken a step further? Best individual mvts. WITHIN each symphony! The rule of no repeating conductors/orchestras still applying (but only within the individual work) For example here's my choice for the PERFECT COMPOSITE SYMPHONY 7:
1st mvt: Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic '62 (fads come and go but the '62 remains a Classic for a reason! Still gives you goosebumps. Thrilling.)
2nd mvt: Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin (yeah, it's a Romantic, slower approach. But it WORKS! May well wrench tears from you)
3rd mvt: Szell/Cleveland Orchestra (the way those horns come over the top! Szell owns this mvt)
4th mvt: Honeck/Pittsburgh Orchestra (the expression "Strap Yourself In" was invented for this performance. INSANE ENERGY)
PS -- I wish Primephonic had a way to create your own composite versions of works. Ultimate Fantasy Favorites List. That's got to be on the horizon I hope! :)
PPS -- Next time I burn any CDs for friends I plan to be more DIVERSE. ;)
No, I wouldn't do that because, to be honest, it's just a game and not helpful to normal people. I know that most people who watch this channel and subsequently comment are serious classical music fans, but I still hold out hope, maybe foolishly, that this channel will also serve as a resource for beginners and I don't want it to turn into a contest of obscure knowledge among "the privileged few." That is the opposite of my intention.
Wonderful program. The pity is, again, that the prices some of these recordings have reached (Amazon) our outrageous and only for very wealthy people. Maybe they do it to force you into downloads.
So, you and I were gonna have words if (a) you didn't put on a tie for the 9th and (b) you didn't include Honeck for either the 3rd or the 5th. Glad we avoided any unpleasantness.
Whenever I hear the 8th in concert, I say "God I love this symphony." And whenever I hear a recording, I say, why doesn't this sound like it does live? Listened to the Kletzki--the horns are amazing. But not quite the same as in concert. I have Vanska, in HD even, so I'll have to go back to listen to that. Maybe I wasn't paying attention.
I'm not listening to Vanska because I just relistened to von Dohnanyi/Cleveland's 6th to try to identify why I love it so much. All I can say is it flows (is there a fermata anywhere in the first two movements?). It moves at just the right pace--water flows like water, cuckoos sing like cuckoos, bands are rustic. No matter who else I listen to, I always come back to this one.
First time I heard Dohnanyi's Telarc Beethoven from Cleveland, when it was released, I thought it was the dullest thing I'd ever heard. Then I bought it a couple decades later and realized how wrong I was--such great playing and conducting. Glad you mentioned it.
@@jeffrosenfeld5781 I was just out of law school when I switched from LPs to CDs, and I could only afford to buy about two a month. So I couldn't afford CDs that might be duds, and I couldn't preview them. For anything in the 19th century I figured Dohnanyi/Cleveland was a safe bet, particularly on Telarc. I was buying piecemeal, so I didn't get the full cycle. But I also got Brahms Symphonies 3 and 4 and Dvorak 7, 8 and 9, and I still enjoy them all (albeit their are other performances that may be marginally better).