Nice video! As the discord Leo nerd I wanted to make a few corrections from what you said if that's alright: Backturn neutral: For the most part, backturn neutral ends up being a big knowledge check because a lot of characters have good ways to work around backturn, especially because we don't have the ability to block, which makes it really hard to successfully beat someone in neutral without doing some gambling. Examples include (but are not limited to): =Sol 6h (unreactable and out ranges all of our moves) -May [4]6s (also unreactable and out ranges all of our moves, May can sit outside of our range and react to us whiff) -Chipp/Millia whiff punish/run up button (they both have better range, and amazing dashes, so we can't react to what they do, but they have the option to react to us) -Ky stun dipper -Faust fs -Baiken h kabari etc Backturn neutral very quickly becomes something much closer to a knowledge check on whether the opponent knows what their unreactable options are, and play slightly patiently to let us mess up trying to preemptively guess, rather than a reliable and consistent tool Air normals: While it is 100% true that Leo's air normals are fairly weak, I wanted to expand on why they're weak and when you'd use each one -Jk: While it doesn't combo naturally as a jump in, it's the lowest hitting of all of Leo's air moves, while also being very active, which can make it a solid jump in or air to air in certain scenarios, and also being pretty handy in scenarios where meter is on the table . That makes it the best traditional jump in, while having the least reward without CH or RC. -Js: I wouldn't really say it's Leo's best air normal, because while it has the most consistent reward (jk and jh also having similar reward but with more inconsistency), it's very stubby, and by extension a weak air to air option. It's Leo's best jump in if the opponent is forced to block because it most consistently gives Leo the plus frames he needs to start pressure without the threat of the opponent's throw. -Jh: Jh would be Leo's most consistent air to air in that it will win the most, but it only has three active frames, and hits high upwards, which makes it a bad jump in, and inconsistent at actually hitting the opponent. However it still has good reward, and good range, and most consistently combos as a jump in (in your video, you used iad at a range that's generally unrealistic to actually iad at, which made it not combo properly). -Jd: You mentioned it perfectly fine, figured I'd reiterate: It's good for stalling to avoid antiairs, grants a combo with meter (more below), and can be made safe on block by jump cancelling. The only correction is that the combo into 236s will generally be inconsistent, to the point that it's not really worth aiming to go for. Generally, Leo despises being in the air, and the only time you're really there is either on reaction to an option the opponent represents (for example, Pot's slidehead, Axl 2h/rensen/command grab, all that), on defense ie to avoid a grab, or during some combo routes. If you want to go into the air for another reason, it would be to RPS with the opponent's antiair timing when we have access to meter, by jumping in with jk/js/jh, or stalling with jd, although using it very commonly can be bad practice because you're essentially aiming to gamble, which is inconsistent and by extension not a good idea to win games long term. Again, great video and I appreciate you making it!
Thank you for the in depth reply. I would agree that there are weaknesses to backturn neutral, and in certain matchups it can be difficult to use effectively, like against sol 6H and ky's stun dipper as you mentioned. But considering the total duration of bt.S being 26 frames and the earliest reaction time of 18 frames in general, that leaves your opponent 8 frames to react and get in range and press a move that is faster than 6 frames or has a larger disjoint than bt.S. I am testing it now, and I cannot see a way May could whiff punish, doplhin is too slow and her dash up 5K is also fairly slow or difficult to get in the range quick enough. And since you don't have to immediately go back into another move, counter is still an option, you can cancel into S fireball quickly to stay more disjointed or even just dash away, I think his backturn options are still very strong. But as you said, if the opponent has a fast far range move that out ranges your moves, it can definitely be more difficult to use effectively. Thank you for the corrections on the air normals. Is the reward for air to air j.H CH getting to do airdash j.S? What is the good reward you are talking about unless you mean being able to jump in into 2K after? And yes, going into 236S is not super consistent after j.D, but if you did IAD or double jump into it, you won't be able to jump cancel so it's better to at least try to cancel to either frame trap or combo in my opinion. Glad you enjoyed the video and appreciate the feedback!
@@aDTimeGaming > bt.S being 26 frames and the earliest reaction time of 18 frames in general, that leaves your opponent 8 frames to react and get in range and press a move that is faster than 6 frames or has a larger disjoint than bt.S While this is true, you also need to keep in mind that we're not able to block, so she has extra time to take advantage of because we need to commit to an option after bt s ends. Parry is tiny reward unless we either confirm into bt super (which isn't really ideal meter usage), or if it puts them in the corner, since we don't get oki (parry in general is something we want to avoid using when we can). That aside, we're still guessing while May isn't, because May still has a consistent unreactable option to hit us out of backturn, which is the important part of why backturn neutral isn't a reliable option. Other characters are out ranging us with pokes we have to guess to beat, while we can't enter our range. Ideally, we just use our dash to back up, stance cancel or fireball, and then abuse front turn neutral instead. BT neutral is... not good. For the Jh thing, you're generally not going to air to air in place as Leo, because Leo is basically never jumping in place (we have no reason to, we're only jumping because the opponent made us), so the reward is going to be off of IAD jh, where we can either confirm into cs 214s, or 5k js ad js cs fs 5h 2s 214s, depending on whether we're close enough to the corner or not. Js can also give that route, but it's not a good air to air since, again, it's pretty stubby. For jump ins, if the opponent happened to be standing, didn't get counter hit, and didn't block, we can confirm into 5p which is admittedly pretty meager, but also not a common situation in games, whereas on CH or versus a crouching opponent we can get cs 2h 214s off, which is great reward. For JD, you actually CAN jump cancel it after iad or double jump, because we land while we're still in recovery frames (but before the opponent can act), so we regain our resources when we land, and can safely jump cancel away, just a little later than if we did have resources.
oh hell yeah. there's not a lot of good leo guides out there, most are extremely outdated or long-winded. this was sorely needed, ty!
I really like Leo's game play, but I haven't gotten around to learning him. This has given me a great starting point, thanks!
Nice video! As the discord Leo nerd I wanted to make a few corrections from what you said if that's alright:
Backturn neutral:
For the most part, backturn neutral ends up being a big knowledge check because a lot of characters have good ways to work around backturn, especially because we don't have the ability to block, which makes it really hard to successfully beat someone in neutral without doing some gambling. Examples include (but are not limited to):
=Sol 6h (unreactable and out ranges all of our moves)
-May [4]6s (also unreactable and out ranges all of our moves, May can sit outside of our range and react to us whiff)
-Chipp/Millia whiff punish/run up button (they both have better range, and amazing dashes, so we can't react to what they do, but they have the option to react to us)
-Ky stun dipper
-Faust fs
-Baiken h kabari
etc
Backturn neutral very quickly becomes something much closer to a knowledge check on whether the opponent knows what their unreactable options are, and play slightly patiently to let us mess up trying to preemptively guess, rather than a reliable and consistent tool
Air normals:
While it is 100% true that Leo's air normals are fairly weak, I wanted to expand on why they're weak and when you'd use each one
-Jk: While it doesn't combo naturally as a jump in, it's the lowest hitting of all of Leo's air moves, while also being very active, which can make it a solid jump in or air to air in certain scenarios, and also being pretty handy in scenarios where meter is on the table . That makes it the best traditional jump in, while having the least reward without CH or RC.
-Js: I wouldn't really say it's Leo's best air normal, because while it has the most consistent reward (jk and jh also having similar reward but with more inconsistency), it's very stubby, and by extension a weak air to air option. It's Leo's best jump in if the opponent is forced to block because it most consistently gives Leo the plus frames he needs to start pressure without the threat of the opponent's throw.
-Jh: Jh would be Leo's most consistent air to air in that it will win the most, but it only has three active frames, and hits high upwards, which makes it a bad jump in, and inconsistent at actually hitting the opponent. However it still has good reward, and good range, and most consistently combos as a jump in (in your video, you used iad at a range that's generally unrealistic to actually iad at, which made it not combo properly).
-Jd: You mentioned it perfectly fine, figured I'd reiterate: It's good for stalling to avoid antiairs, grants a combo with meter (more below), and can be made safe on block by jump cancelling. The only correction is that the combo into 236s will generally be inconsistent, to the point that it's not really worth aiming to go for.
Generally, Leo despises being in the air, and the only time you're really there is either on reaction to an option the opponent represents (for example, Pot's slidehead, Axl 2h/rensen/command grab, all that), on defense ie to avoid a grab, or during some combo routes. If you want to go into the air for another reason, it would be to RPS with the opponent's antiair timing when we have access to meter, by jumping in with jk/js/jh, or stalling with jd, although using it very commonly can be bad practice because you're essentially aiming to gamble, which is inconsistent and by extension not a good idea to win games long term.
Again, great video and I appreciate you making it!
Thank you for the in depth reply. I would agree that there are weaknesses to backturn neutral, and in certain matchups it can be difficult to use effectively, like against sol 6H and ky's stun dipper as you mentioned. But considering the total duration of bt.S being 26 frames and the earliest reaction time of 18 frames in general, that leaves your opponent 8 frames to react and get in range and press a move that is faster than 6 frames or has a larger disjoint than bt.S. I am testing it now, and I cannot see a way May could whiff punish, doplhin is too slow and her dash up 5K is also fairly slow or difficult to get in the range quick enough. And since you don't have to immediately go back into another move, counter is still an option, you can cancel into S fireball quickly to stay more disjointed or even just dash away, I think his backturn options are still very strong. But as you said, if the opponent has a fast far range move that out ranges your moves, it can definitely be more difficult to use effectively.
Thank you for the corrections on the air normals. Is the reward for air to air j.H CH getting to do airdash j.S? What is the good reward you are talking about unless you mean being able to jump in into 2K after? And yes, going into 236S is not super consistent after j.D, but if you did IAD or double jump into it, you won't be able to jump cancel so it's better to at least try to cancel to either frame trap or combo in my opinion.
Glad you enjoyed the video and appreciate the feedback!
@@aDTimeGaming > bt.S being 26 frames and the earliest reaction time of 18 frames in general, that leaves your opponent 8 frames to react and get in range and press a move that is faster than 6 frames or has a larger disjoint than bt.S
While this is true, you also need to keep in mind that we're not able to block, so she has extra time to take advantage of because we need to commit to an option after bt s ends. Parry is tiny reward unless we either confirm into bt super (which isn't really ideal meter usage), or if it puts them in the corner, since we don't get oki (parry in general is something we want to avoid using when we can). That aside, we're still guessing while May isn't, because May still has a consistent unreactable option to hit us out of backturn, which is the important part of why backturn neutral isn't a reliable option. Other characters are out ranging us with pokes we have to guess to beat, while we can't enter our range. Ideally, we just use our dash to back up, stance cancel or fireball, and then abuse front turn neutral instead. BT neutral is... not good.
For the Jh thing, you're generally not going to air to air in place as Leo, because Leo is basically never jumping in place (we have no reason to, we're only jumping because the opponent made us), so the reward is going to be off of IAD jh, where we can either confirm into cs 214s, or 5k js ad js cs fs 5h 2s 214s, depending on whether we're close enough to the corner or not. Js can also give that route, but it's not a good air to air since, again, it's pretty stubby.
For jump ins, if the opponent happened to be standing, didn't get counter hit, and didn't block, we can confirm into 5p which is admittedly pretty meager, but also not a common situation in games, whereas on CH or versus a crouching opponent we can get cs 2h 214s off, which is great reward.
For JD, you actually CAN jump cancel it after iad or double jump, because we land while we're still in recovery frames (but before the opponent can act), so we regain our resources when we land, and can safely jump cancel away, just a little later than if we did have resources.
Ah hell yeah, I was waiting for the Leo guide, thanks for doing this!
Exactly what I’ve waiting for
Thank you so much! Eagerly awaiting part 2
Ur vids are awesome
Thank you!
👍
Wow. Why it's not in the tutorial that you can even start charging down-back while you dash?