Take-Down of Thermaltake's Engineering & Marketing
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
- Thermaltake doesn't get anymore chances to improve its marketing or basic design flaws. We've been trying to privately inform Thermaltake how to improve for years, but they haven't listened.
Sponsor: Buy Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut on Amazon (geni.us/1D8Eeq) or Hydronaut paste (geni.us/Fsray)
Thermaltake's latest virtual Computex showcase featured the Tower 100 mini-ITX case, the Divider 300 TG ARGB, new power supplies, and the Floe RC. Some of these products are actually promising, but Thermaltake frustratingly botches the final stretch of details that would take it from "almost really good" to "actually really good." We're tired of trying to help Thermaltake improve its products via emails and discussions at tradeshows, so hopefully this will help the company wake up to some of its frustrating, repeat shortcomings and mistakes. We want Thermaltake to get better. Good people work at the company, but word isn't making it high enough up the chain. The products are so consistently close to competitive that it's painful to see them miss on often easily fixed issues or quality control problems.
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TIMESTAMPS
00:00 - TT Showcases Inability to Improve
03:30 - It's Different This Time
05:34 - Some of Thermaltake's Misleading BS: Floe RC
06:14 - Thermaltake's Misleading Claims on Floe RC
09:25 - Thermaltake's Tower 100 Case & Repeat Issues
12:02 - Thermaltake's Extra-Dimensional Physics
14:45 - Unbelievably Frustrating Product Development
16:36 - Exceptions to Thermaltake's Mistakes
18:22 - The Tower 100 Could Be Really Good if TT Listened
19:24 - Thermaltake 300 TG ARGB Divider is Almost Good (Again)
21:37 - TT Doesn't Know How to Build a Computer
22:35 - Risk of Perception of Thermaltake as a "Knock-Off Brand"
24:04 - Thermaltake Toughfan 12 vs. Noctua
24:47 - Conclusion
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my ram gets hot through heat soak through the motherboard, when i first got my 6600K i was pushing the overclocks and voltage, then when i tried to tweak my ram it would become instantly unstable at any setting other than XMP stock, when i put my finger on the ram it was hot, followed down to the motherboard, even hotter, then to the CPU. so i would say thermaltakes findings are not unfounded.
@@thelasthallow what temperature is you CPU running at that it transfers that much heat through the motherboard? It sounds to me like you have a really bad short somewhere.
So big question what are best cases you recommend for best airflow ??? & after this will def never look to Thermaltake products over others anymore. I think currently ARCTIC for performance & price gets my 1st look rightnow considering even with that low price making you think "cheap product" has shown to perform in top ranks on benchmarks.
@@thelasthallow going to assume you were probably running DDR3 instead of DDR4 which makes sense that it would be hot if overclocking the memory.. but the reality is DDR4 runs no where near the same temps as a 1.5v DDR3 1866 kit would for daily use.
@@blacklotu5223 look through the case review videos, there's a lot of them they recommend especially some of the recent front panel mesh design cases.
I can't wait for the GN "It's not a theory, it's- like, MATH..." T-shirt.
The "like" filler word really sells it, in my opinion.
@@GamersNexus I would buy this shirt. Put some various temperature conversions against the background and that's an easy sale.
@@DrLegitimate 10/10 Would seriously buy :)
...C'mon, you're being super harsh... Expecting a company called "Thermaltake" to know anything about temperatures...... Wait......
@@DrLegitimate I second that sentiment
I laughed so hard when he pulled the dust filter off to reveal just a plate with literally no holes
lmao, yeah, wtf was that about
Management probably decided on a checklist of features needed, but didn't give time to design things.
I was so braindead I didn't even notice it at first
The 'pulling air from the fourth dimensions' comment made me chuckle.
Well meant is the opposite of well done.
"Thermaltake is using a time cube which is deploying aside a tesseract to act as a previously unexplored universe within its Bag of Holding where upon air can teleport into existence"
Literally fell out of my chair
I totally believe it. It makes perfect sense.
i'm here in 2021 laughing my ass off at this
The best part was the accompanying diagram.
that's 6th Dimension right there not 4th... smd
Flux capacitor: **walks away feeling obsolete**
The Tower 100 has finally been officially launched and it looks like they might have listened to you. Retooled side panels with larger intake areas plus a large fan exhausting to the rear of the case. I look forward to your review of it, as it could be a great case if they get it right.
Do you remember when an outside observer didnt have to babysit a design for some company just so it wont be completely incompetent
@@filipbitala2624 I remember when people didn't have so much money, they could keep garbage companies alive with sheer ignorance.
I just remember a Hardware Canucks video when gigabyte told them they were the only motherboard maker in Taiwan.
Their child like treatment of western reviewers is borderline racist.😂
@@kevinfernandez6532 They are referring to having the actual manufacturing plant in Taiwan (Taoyuan), while Asus and MSI uses factories in China.
This comment cracked me up.@@filipbitala2624 But for real, they should hire Steve as a case design engineer, since he clearly understands more about case design than their actually engineers.
GN: You guys need to improve your products
TT: haha RGB go bling bling
💀💀💀
Take my money /Bling /bling
Accurate summary of everything Thermaltake has been doing
That's what makes things cool though?
Like MSI's Gaming X Trio line. It's not the triple fan and hefty heatsink...it's the RGB that makes it run cooler than competition!
@@jvccr7533 in all honesty i bought that card cause msi was right about the differnce in how the heat transfers out i wouldnt give msi a bad name accept the fact ingeneral thy charge alot.
So ThermalTake is sponsoring the 2020 disappointment build then?
probably
It's not their product as much as the marketing etc
@@Th3_Gael nah its the products too, just as the main brunt of the video explains
Would be fun to see Air entering and doing a 90 degree exit, And GPU looking at the fans with despise and hatred.
Cool
I honestly respect you so much for making videos like this. It's not some bullshit bottle fed(from sponsors and payment) youtube channel. It's real and it's for the consumers, and I think we can all agree that we respect it more than you guy at GN will ever understand. Thank you, everyone of you guys over there at the GN headquarters. I appreciate you all so much.
Ironic for a company called "Thermaltake" to be so clueless about airflow and thermal management. I mean seriously, it's really not that hard. Heat rises. Fans suck and blow. Literally it's common sense man.
I feel like liquid cooling the ram is going to be need in the future when we get to DDR7+ just look how ssd have been getting faster and bigger heatsinks same goes with chip set fans
Heat rising only matters if you don't have airflow.
@@justion337 You can overcome rising heat with downward air flow but why would you work against that? If you're going to push air from point A to point B, point A might as well be the lower of the two to aid the process, not work against it. Again, it's not rocket science man. I mean, it CAN be, but doesn't have to be. Follow a few simple rules of thumb and that should take care of most of it.
When he flipped the case over, and there's a dust filter covering...solid steel. What.
That's called Hyperart Thomasson.
Time cubes man, ain't gotta explain shit
...
@@i-hate-handle-names I'm on the second corner
flashbacks of the verge build
"it's not a theory.... it's math"... This is why I keep coming back.
Absolutely perfect statement like David Vizard, "I don't have an opinion, I have a dyno".
but he knows that theory
That was the most epic moment in youtube tech channel history.
T-shirt?
I laughed so hard
I'm so pleased to see the industry reviewers finally bite back. These companies DEPEND on the reviewers for recommendations. And now, so do the customers. But because the customers now pay the reviewers directly and support them through other channels such as youtube ad views, patreon and self produced merch etc. The companies now have far less sway. It's great to see a single man shred a conference call full of company execs like that. Well done
For me the best thing is that the temperature reduction could be compared to room temperature! If the room temperature (from now on, Tr) is 25ºC, fan cooling can only make temperature go as low as to 25ºC, so 25ºC should the reference value in my opinion (no other passive cooling method can beat Tr, so lowering the temperature to Tr is best case scenario, so let's say 100% performance). Therefore, going from 49 to 39 using 25 as reference would mean 42% reduction! They could have marketed even better but they didn't!
His kelvin example is actually wrong. And kelvin is the thermodynamic temperature properties of water.
@@zagan1 yeah kelvin example was just nitpicking, especially since it's more likely used in physics than real life. In real life, in your room you do care about how cool you can keep your cpu while you're sweating in 30C during summer. If you can keep it around 60C under stress instead of 90C, that's a win, since it's a 33% better value (i guess). I can't give a flying fk about how much % it would be on an intergalactical scale...
A better example than Kelvin would have been Fahrenheit. Totally changes the percentage as well.
@@Adrian-pp6qy Yeah but if they did that you'd miss out on that Reddit Gold autistic explanation that totally schooled a sales rep.
WTF is that dust filter that covers a full piece of metal. I couldn't imagine designing something like that and a company building it. It would be like a construction worker putting a door in front of a brick wall.
Oh there are plenty pictures of stuff like this. Balconies with no door to access, stairways to nowhere...
Fans that are covered by a glass front panel.
@@georgf9279 winchester house
Dude, this is why I don't deal with TT anymore. They market gimmicks to trick people and don't even have the competency to complete a product before releasing it to Media review. Sad...
Clearly you have no experience with the 4th dimension.
OMG, im dyin with that 4th dimensional air flow theory!
michael lesak 4th dimensional airflow math
Just wait for their next gen 5th dimensional water cooling products
it's not a theory, it's math
I'm looking forward to getting my hands on some of that breathable steel too.
fun fact: the human eye can only see 2 dimensions
12:20 This is a good example of over-engineering where a simple slipgate drawing air from the elemental plane of air would have been much simpler and more economical.
Would it be less misleading if they said 10 degrees Celsius cooler? As a consumer, I really don't see things more in Celsius than in Kelvins.
"It will pull air from the fourth dimension" Jesus Christ, I almost spit all my coffee.
Haha the filter against the steel though!
Which timestamp? I think i missed it!
@@tgdxdrakoon7019 Steve said it at 12:07
Lies, damned lies, and Thermaltake.
@@tgdxdrakoon7019 How did you miss it?!?! There was a whole sequence about generating air using the Tesseract and a bag of holding lmao
"I undestrand your theory"
"it's not a theory, it's like... math"
It is theory. It's a theory on how to sell shit. Guarantee 90% of people building a PC pick the shiniest one with bold claims that it will work.
Stevo went full gansta there.
I have a theory that 1 + 1 = 2 in the base 10 number system its groundbreaking and controversial.
this is why I love GN
This slayed me.
i laughed so hard i cried when he showed the diagram of the 4th dimension. The best part is that steve actually cares about TT, they just screw it up completely.
The silliest thing about the '20% cooler' claim is, if they just used delta over ambient, that percentage would actually be *higher* as most rooms are above 0 degree celcius
Exactly... and more meaningful
ambient being 0% and the average temp at which thermal throttling might occur being 100% would be a nice sensible scale
Yeah it's over 40% that way. They're such dumbasses.
Holy crap Steve, that 4th dimension tesseract roast was insane. You're really mad at them😂😂😂
Now all I can see is TT employees randomly screaming "hail Hydra!" as they walk about their day.
The bag of holding part killed me
thehypercovery Steve’s remarks are always the best of the best
Hats off to anyone who can work the "Time Cube" into a hardware review lmao
The fools! Haven't they seen Event Horizon?!
"It's not theory it's, like, math." Thank you.
A visual representation of the math for people who like to see the numbers:
(49C-39C)/49C = 0.204 = 20%
The above converted to F (instead of Kelvin):
(120.2F-102.2F)/120.2F = 0.149 = 15%
Same temperature, different scale = different %.
Thanks for the footnote/appendix item! Hope this helps visualize it.
and for extra confusion, let's do delta T over ambient to make the percentage look bigger
TT should could even improve this further and bring back those great 1700's temp scales, such as Rømer scale:
(79.05Rø-60Rø)/79.05Rø =0.2409 = BAM, 24.1% increase in cooling performance.
I get the point here but I think he's overdoing it. It might be scientifically wrong, but most people wouldn't understand that or care. The bigger issue imho would be asking for proof of longevity or performance increase. You can't argue semantics on that one, because neither happen. (Except on highish end server stuff)
Yes I don't see what's wrong here. It is 20% cooler relative to its before operating temperature?
How did you not name this video "Thermaltakedown"?
Under rated comment, bravo.
This comment is ThermalTake
Total missed opportunity
Lawsuit
Because they don't have you helming the marketing team, for video titles.
Send in a resume!
" I don't think Thermaltake has anyone who knows how to overclock memory, they probably outsource it" holy shit Steve this video has nothing but headshots
Everyone is talking about the "math" line but when he said this, I had to pause the video. That burn was so bad, I got 2nd degrees just by being in close proximity.
Nice catch bob ross😂
Headshots with armor penetrating incendiary bullets
@@MaddDogg316 SO WHY CAN YOU USE KELVIN BUT NOT CELSIUS
@@stevethea5250 we could also use Rankine degrees, but Celsius, Fahrenheit and Réaumur degrees goes into the negative and don't start at 0...
I want a ,"it's not a theory, it's like MATH." T shirt. 8:14
There are bots that scan the internet looking for comments that say "I want (insert quote) on a shirt" or something similar. You may actually soon see one if you are start looking, but Steve will get no profit of it
EDIT: Unless he makes his own
DE-DE-DE-DE-DESTROYED!
I would buy that.
I'll buy that.
i'll buy one too
"it will pull air from the fourth dimension" not gonna lie, lost my shit with this phrase
Only one problem with that statement... The fourth dimension is time.
@@adamambler5915 there is nothing wrong with this statement. Thermaltake managed to pull the air from the future and push it to the past, eventually in opposite direction when you flip the fan. ;-)
@@adamambler5915 Only one problem with your statement... Space and time are the same thing.
General Griffin spacetime Is a separate concept to space and time. Spacetime is a concept that fuses space and time into one thing and the effects of this (warping the two equally) can be seen but on extremely large and heavy objects like moons and planets which this pc is not. Calling space and time the same is contextual but not the fundamentally the same thing which is why we have separate dimensions for space and time. Either way, pulling air from time makes no logical sense. From the past where the air has already been blown away? Or has the air been travelling from the past near the speed of light within the case so that it can ‘move’ forward in time at a different pace which would superheat the air and cause an explosion of some kind from the extreme expansion of gasses not to mention that it requires the spacial dimensions to do this which it does not have. Or from the future which is literally impossible as proven in general/special relativity that you use. These scenarios require spacial dimensions and you would no longer be pulling air from time but using time to get spacial objects. Time literally does not have the spacial requirement for a fan to pull air and thus makes the concept of pulling air from the fourth dimension impossible. Space and time are fundamentally different dimensions that do not work in the same way.
Liveries FSX this makes no logical sense as I explained is a separate reply
The Tower 100 bottom fan will not be obstructed because they're replacing the PSU with an Artosis Pylon.
So glad someone brought this reference to a GN comments section!
slow claps
@@GamersNexus hey man one pylon 5 gates just sounds like efficiency to me
The only successful bottom fan is a Dyson Bladeless Fan design.
And only a PC case design maverick would be so crazy as to make a case that also act as a bladeless fan and space heater.
I am both happy and sad that I understand this reference
Steve, you need to make a computer case. It would be totally over-engineered, totally Overkill, but it would probably be quickly one of the best cases on the market. A very low Frills, low show, function over form case. Do it.
Partner with Roman to make sure it is actually over-engineered.
They mentioned this in the past, supposedly it's a nightmare to manufacture, especially profitably.
@@devindykstra It'd be cool if they partnered with someone like CM and got it done though.
No, Steve and BZ should design literally everything :D
They could partner with a company. Make a Gamers Nexus by Phantek case or some such. Make 5% per case sale? Would be boss.
"Its not a theory its math" Steve Burke 2020
So good 😂
My favorite line from Spiderman: FFH
"Yeah. It's math."
Made me chuckle.
The sad part is that in science a theory is the highest achievable goal and has nothing to do with the colloquial meaning of the word "theory".
The funny part is that TT would be absolutely correct to present the results as percentages only if they'd compared Deltas instead of temperatures, since in case of ΔT the units don't matter...
And the funniest part is that if they'd compared Deltas, the percentage would be even higher... :)))
8:11
TT: "i know your theory, yeah"
GN: "its not a theory, its like math"
Best part of the whole video
"I'm mad, not disappointed"- Steve, June 2020
Steve doesn't seem to get mad at bad products. He only gets mad at almost good products that fall short for stupid reasons.
Steve: What are you going to cool it with?
TT: With hopes and dreams...
ThermalTakeYourCash&run
AaronShenghao are those the same hopes that include having a Swiss Army Knife with a Phillips head screwdriver?
so they put a filter over a solid metal area. No one said " why? " really?
"Who'll look under there? It'll be fine"
It's not uncommon to show pre-production versions of products at trade shows in closed-doors meetings with buyers etc.. Clearly they intend for the final production version to have ventilation in that area. Likely due to time constraints they didn't have a perforated panel ready, but that doesn't matter due to the other issues pointed out in the video.
The "pre-production" excuse just doesn't fly. This is a situation where marketing is trying to lead product management, rather than informing PM. A case doesn't have many mission critical objectives. One central objective is to adequately cool the heat generating components inside. If it doesn't allow for that, all the looks and lights are simply polishing a turd.
@@WBizarre So delay the fooking case? Why squeeze out a turd like that?
@@schwig44 STAMP?
Can we get a limited edition "Why design for airflow when you have 4th dimensional cooling" shirts please????
Or just Steve having fun with the idea of 4th dimension cooling as a shirt in Blender, and stylizing it so it's old-timey with a figure / exhibit caption on it.
I just want a nice font that says "Triple filtered mesh design ™️". The rear of the shirt is just solid black.
Seconded! 👕 GN, get on this! We will buy 💲💲
@@jeremyfarland744 So how about them LEDs on video cards?
I'm still waiting for Steve to make his own case.
i really want to see him design one. but he'd probably only present his ideas once he got a contract with a manufacturer.
@Gareth Tucker I wonder about the build quality. Most cases use the worst USB and 3.5mm jacks available, nobody talks about that. The same goes for the expansion card rear frame.
He'd have to partner with some company and it would jeopardize the integrity(from an optical standpoint) of any reviews he did of their products afterwards.
@Gareth Tucker That sounds perfect. Mesh really is the way to go.
@cesar arias they can have RGB as long as the light they emit is black!
It’s getting hard to thermaltake this company seriously
I'm so angry. Take my like.
@@baxr92 I'll leave an angry like as well
Underrated comment!!!
glad i never bought from them :)
I was reminded why I stopped using (and even considering) Thermaltake products years ago. Thanks for the reminder.
I hope this video does really well. My first enthusiast case was a Thermaltake Xaser VI with a BigWater 780E, did a basic open loop between it and my i7 950. And I liked the case, and I want them to make great products again, not just ok ones, I totally agree with you, they are very very close to making good products, so then they can go on to make great products. Thanks Steve and GN, this stuff is why I am a supporter of the channel.
We really, really want to see them make that final step. Someone up high isn't listening, and hopefully this gives the lower ranks enough ammunition to push for change.
@@GamersNexus have you never considered designing your own case in parntership with one of the manufacturers, i'd love to see an msi gamers nexus edition case. ( i only say msi cause all of their cases get bad reviews from you)
Thermaltake has always been the cheap brand, even their higher end products are chintzy but come with a far higher price. Found out the hard way when I bought a Thermaltake Tsunami Dream that looked nice and high end only to be cheap on the inside. They'd be right at home making cheap Chinese smartphones or cars where the Chinese people are easily duped into buying and pretend it works as good as the reputable brands but the rest of the world sees differently.
Steve, your "rants" are so friendly, they could be mistaken as flirts! xD
It got me pretty frisky
It's the way he flicks his hair around
"It's not, like a Theory... IT'S MATH"
That didn't sink in, and Steve is talking with people that do this for a living...?! >.>
Marketers? Yeah.
Asdayasman that man wasn’t a marketer.
12:02 - Thermaltake's Extra-Dimensional Physics (Definitely one of my favorite top 100 burns of 2020)
We need a 4th dimension shirt
I want a Timecube T-shirt
"It's not a theory.. It's math..." Lmao I would have loved to hear more of that call tbh
Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahahaha
When he said that, I laughed so hard my son got concerned....
@@aaronthomas6155 As would anyone who saw you laughing so hard at something that was, at most, smile-worthy.
Maybe he was using the word theory in a scientific sence (where a theory which basically is a provable aspect of the natural world)?
Prime opportunity missed to title this "Thermal-takedown"
This comment is one of ThermalTake's competitors
@Jorus C'baoth riing fans are also garbage in the sense of the stupid BS proprietary crap they pull with it, and being outperformed by equally if not more good-looking fans at lower prices
"It's not a theory...it's math" wished I saw his face on that one 😅😅😅
Same 🤣🤣🤣
Well, it is not even math, it is understanding the physical quantities you are talking about. And then doing some simple math :)
Assuming he's capable of even understanding what they tried to convey with that. :(
it was "get lost, i'm right in a way i want to be judged on" type of face.
It's kind of bs from Burke though.
You always measure against your ambient temperature since you cannot chill
down significantly below that with convection based cooling anyway.
It's a very poor "aktschually" moment from him here.
Yes it's technically the truth, but it's a petty argument.
Not that I want to defend Thermaltake in general here I pretty much
agree on the other stuff here, but this was just... sad.
"we expect a more capable company to rip this idea off". Wow, Steve, you're amazing.
haha that dust filter on solid steel almost made me spit my coffee xD I mean better safe than sorry I guess
Hey, it might keep dust from going in through the tab holes they punched out to hold the filter in place. lol
Reminded me that bass speaker under some laptops which were actually a screw under grill XD
"good, skilled people who doesn't make it far up the chain" - Yup. been there, seen that...because often those with silver tongue went up & those who are in touch with the customers/field experts stayed at the bottom.
Well... 5 minutes into your video changed my mind on buying a Thermaltake case. I'll be looking something different.
Same. I've never really been into bling-ed out cases but the TT P90 is so unique it caught my eye and single-evenhandedly got me interested in the market. Not saying I definitely won't buy Thermaltake, but I'll damn sure be doing my own research rather than assuming "I'm sure the engineers made reasonable choices"
@@darnell8897 I've found many case designers have similar issues with not understanding air flow requirements. I've been looking for a new case for my brother and there are so many companies that just slap solid panels all over the cases with not room for it to breathe.
I'm a big fan of corsairs airflow cases like the 275R because they are well priced look good and have good airflow. You don't have to restrict airflow for a case to look good and manufacturers need to understand that
I feel lucky that my 2011 thermaltake case is before this crap happened, when the intakes were not a 4th dimensional metal plate.
I've got a thermaltake versa h18 and it's great, their low end stuff might ironically be better than their high end.
I just used an S100 in my new build and am super happy with it overall - great air flow, roomy, plenty of cut-outs for cable management, looks sharp and a great value @ $60.
Thermaltake is a generous company doing all that R&D for everyone else.
KEKW
It's disingenuous to say Thermaltake doesn't get credit for their designs because the end execution wasn't up to par... actually it's a load of shit, plain and simple.
For the entire 15 years I've been paying attention, from my first build to the one I ordered yesterday, Thermaltake has always had the same image. An aesthetics-focused OEM with second rate parts painted to look cooler than everyone else's. They practically invented the GAMER EXTREME RGB LED type brand image/marketing that's become ubiquitous today, and the generalization of low quality associated with it.
exactly my thoughts, althought, I think their basic lines like membrane keyboards and mice are fine for the price
At least they aren't a "copy someone else's respected design poorly and give it a name just diffrent enough to avoid a lawsuit" company anymore. I guess.
My V9 looks on in sadness
They need to fix their damned RGB software its hot garbage. Lots of customizability but it doesn't allow fan control...
its like they didn't think it through.
Found the guy who got fooled by TT's marketing.
To e honest, at this point, "Didn't think it through" should be TT's theme
@@andy_byrd hard to find 200mm fans with RGb and software controll up to 4 fans
Hands down, this was one of the most satisfying vids I have ever seen in the whole "Pc Builder" sub genre on YT. Thanks for the vid.
11:50 Oh...my....god.... when he takes the mesh from the bottom of the case...I had to repeat that twice to believe it...
yes, steve going nuclear, my favourite type of video
I thought Modern warfare 2 nuke was bad... this is ass blasted with a nuke.
L
Its honestly why I'm here.
@@Multimeter1 HAHA ASS BLASTED
You got me tbh.
@@Multimeter1 it's like he got the nuke without a chopper gunner
11:55 This must have been designed by the marketing manager:
"Just cover that hole up, please. So the filter doesn't get covered in dust"...
Steve, you ABSOLUTELY snapped when the Thermaltake dude said, "I see your theory" and your response was, "it's not a theory, it's math." You didn't have to massacre my boi like that!!! lol
"it's not a theory, it's math!" - Gamers Nexus
thats why I'm here, thx for your incredible work!
8:12
That dude got scienced so hard...
sorry, but I don't agree. The math is correct, both Gamer's Nexus and ThermalTake used the same mathematical procedure to work out the percentage...the difference was just which scale they used. Remember, Kelvin and Celsius are effectively the same scale, just shifted by 273.15 units and all components in the world specify their operating temperatures/windows in Celsius so to tell ThermalTake they must switch to Kelvin to do thermal comparisons when all temps are specified in Celcius is pure and utter nonsense. In fact, to be more accurate, you wouldn't use either Celsius or Kelvin here...you'd normalize against the ambient temperature of the room (25C) so that the scale is taken out of the equation.
@@eeyvrcs your thought process is right, but your idea of what Kelvin represents is wrong. Unit K measures the thermal energy contained in body in absolute terms. It directly corresponds to amount of atomic vibrations that there are in a body (atomic vibrations is the temperature what we perceive). That's the reason why it's almost impossible to go to 0K cause you'll not be able to stop all the atomic vibrations. Celcius 0 starts from freezing point of water and that is a abritrary starting point that humans decided and does not correspond to absolute energy levels. That's the reason why you can't say 20 C contains 100% more energy than that 10C. In any case, he should have just showed decrease in temperature rather than showing how much "percentage improvement" they're getting. Which doesn't make any sense. By your thinking, if we normalise the results with 25C room temperature, he'd get 40% decrease in temperature.
From Wikipedia: Celsius measurement follows an interval system but not a ratio system; and it follows a relative scale not an absolute scale. For example, an object at 20 °C does not have twice the energy of when it is 10 °C; and 0 °C is not the lowest Celsius value. Thus, degrees Celsius is a useful interval measurement but does not possess the characteristics of ratio measures like weight or distance.
@@thecompanioncube4211 your idea of what I'm thinking is wrong. You clear don't see that I'm over simplifying and that I understand Kelvin is an absolute scale and Celsius is relative. What you don't get is that all the measurements and mathematical calculations are relative, Celsius is relative to water and the 20% comparison is relative to the original value, not a measurement of absolute thermal energy. No one cares what the absolute Kelvin indicating thermal energy is otherwise why stop there? Why not start throwing "Joules" into the mix? The reason is this would be even more stupid because to 99% percent of people Joules and Kelvin here is meaningless. Yes, the 20% is a marketing gimmick/twist that is somewhat misleading as it won't calculate into a 20% decrease in all scenarios but to say he's wrong and, "it's not theory, it's math" is plain and simply wrong but also stupid because Kelvin vs Celsius has nothing to do with math. In fact, the basis of the Kelvin scale, i.e. absolute zero, is theoretical by it's very nature of us not being able to measure it so in fact, whereas ThermalTake only used math, it was Gamer's Nexus that brought theory into the equation.
"apparently it pulls air from the 4th dimension".
Haha, I laughed out loud, and that happens only like twice a year.
"It's entering and it's taking a 90° turn and leaving", sounds like me when I see a Thermaltake product.
Holy shit I laughed so hard
I busted out laughing when that guy removed the dust filter at the bottom of the case just to reveal a solid sheet of metal with no holes for the PSU.
Amazing!
I'm glad you did because the best I could do was 🤦
To adapt a recent XKCD, written by someone far smarter than myself; these cases will EVENTUALLY provide excellent cooling and have a negligible Delta T over ambient as entropy increases.
everything will be heat bath
"The roast of Thermaltake" - 2020, colorized
In stereo!
so much RGB tho
I was there! It was a thing of beauty
With no airflow they're basically self-roasting
I especially liked that "Thermaltake's extra-dimensional physics" part :D
That was fucking great.
@@loganshort1324 The starcraft reference there with Artosis had me reeling for a solid 30 seconds haha
Liked for the bag of holding reference.
Steve succeeded on his wisdom saving throw after thermalfake cast charm person on him
@@bentosan Steve counter attacks with, "vicious mockery".
It has no effect, tt is deaf.
"I know your theory."
"It's not a theory, IT'S MATH" (this need to be a shirt)
If Steve makes the shirt.....I'll buy....
New GN merch incoming lol ^^
Let’s push for this!!! 🗳
Reminds me of Niel DeGrasse Tyson. "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
Maybe he was using the word theory in a scientific sence (where a theory which basically is a provable aspect of the natural world)?
Love how in depth you guys go. I will say they must have taken some of your advice as the current versions im seeing have alot more ventilation on the tower 100
"its not a theory, it's like, math"
-Steve
I love to know what weird maths they would use if they made a product that cooled something to below zero degrees c.
@@ge2719 j y y
Find me literally anyone who is going to list PC cooling performance relative to others in raw Kelvin scale, it's a little ridiculous don't you think? Has GN ever even used that in their own charts?
Measuring temps as rise over ambient makes a ton of sense, comparing on a scale that measures raw energy when we're not going sub ambient at all makes *no* sense. It's hard not to cringe at the "well actually" level of pedantry here.
@@Technetica I dont believe its that he wants them to use K, i believe he just diagrees with the claim of 20% when in reality the change is only 3ish percent.. i mean, it was just odd to be talking to anyone in industry who doesnt atleast understand why this would be a problem
@@Technetica I don't think anyone is advocating for marketing in Kelvin. The 20% marketing claim is a problem he's pointing out. Literally showing how math that looks good without a second glance is actually bad math full of lies and deception. I love Farenheit as much as the next guy, I'm right there with you pal.
"Ah, I understand your theory."
"It isn't a theory. It's math."
Maybe he means number theory? :P
Love this channel, though honestly, the only reason I started watching it is because the host looks like he is straight out of the band Dream Theater circa 1992, which is pretty rad 👍
I mean unless ambient is 0 they're actaully underestimating that difference in the only meaningful way to measure it.
No, they are just play numberwang
I love how brutally honest you are Steve, thanks for all the great videos and not spitting out BS just to make a video.
Hey, would love to see an updated review for this case now that it has been released. They appear to have added many changes including ventilation on both sides of the case, and the bottom also.
Can you let me know the model number to which you refer?
Just to add, that the airflow is a lot better due to the changes made, however GPU can still get a little toasty.
I definitely agree with this. They make great looking cases, clever designs, and great prices. Their marketing is just as meaningless as most marketing. But it's the critical product flaws that prevent me from buying their products.
I'm a design engineer, and I think their problem is a complete lack of engineering design reviews. They have one guy take a case from start to finish, with design input exclusively from marketing/management, hard deadlines, and no iterations after the design's done. Design input /from other engineers/ is essential at three points in the process. (Management should be in the review, but also one or sets of eyes that will catch design flaws rather than aesthetic ones)The first point is at 10-30% designed to capture anything like "three 120mm fans are pulling from 40 cm2 of vents" or "that fan doesn't do anything"; critical flaws that are cheaply fixed before everything's fully designed. The second is at 100% designed to capture design oversights, like "we forgot the cutout for the PSU fan". The last review is of the first and article, to make sure that errors didn't pop up when chips start flying (missing fan cutout might be manufacturing instead of engineering). Mandating those iterations might cost an extra 10-20% in both design time and money, but they make the difference between a viable product, and one that will prevent repeat customers.
Will you create a case that pulls air from the fourth dimension?
First thing I thought watching this video was Marketing calls the shots at this company. I've worked places like that and it always turns into a shit show, because there is no qualified input on the product. Infuriating situation.
I need a t-shirt that says "It's not a theory, it's like, math..."
LMAOOO as soon as he said this I loled so hard and came to the comments
@Zero Challenge HE SAID "YA I KNOW UR THEORY" :P
Could actually be interesting having a big square tower like this, with like a 400 mm fan at the top and at the bottom, so the case basically becomes one big air tunnel
The best part about this; They're known for their incredibly oversized Fans, that you can't get replacements for when they burn out. IDK how this wasn't the design idea to begin with.
Have it self mount to the ceiling from the vacuum/thrust of the fans?
4x 120mm fans would be better and easier to replace, and i sure do like the idea!
@@slavefeet57 They actually sell 20cm thermaltake fans in my country, southeast asian here.
Someone should do a video on fan laws. There are a few interesting mathematical relationships between voltage, power, rpm, cfm, area of the fan, speed of the outer edge of the fan blades, number of fans and finally noise. Added to that is the thickness of the fan and pressure curves. Then bearings and switching noise.
Basically, going from one 120 mm fan to four 120 mm fans you quadruple the airflow but add 6 dB to noise. Going from one 120 mm fan to one 240 mm fan you again quadruple the airflow but the noise increases about 20 dB. If you halve the rpm of your 240 mm fan you get the noise level of the original 120 mm fan but still double the airflow. With four 120 mm fans you only need to decrease the rpm by 1.26 times to cancel the 6 dB increase and have the noise level of the orginal single fan, but you still have about 3.2 times the original airflow.
“It’s not a theory, it’s like math”.
That really cracked me up.
7:24 THANK YOU! as a PC enthusiast who is also a chemist, this has always been infuriating to hear from companies.
Honestly, I think calculating from ambient temp as adjusted zero makes sense. People understand what is meant. Calculating from zero kelvin is meaningless to most people and irrelevant in understanding the real world performance of the cooling solution unless you are an engineer.
Albeit, ram rarely needs cooling. I guess an advantage might be that it pumps heat directly out the case rather than have it increase ambient case temp and thereby all other components in that environment. And ofc cooler temps will extend the life of semiconductors including ram -though this IS largely irrelevant given the stock longevity of ram vs likely upgrade schedules.
I think Steve's irritation was poking through his normal equanimity.
@@andysPARK
The issue here is that they didn't calculate the ratio based on ambient temperature(25°C), but based on 0°C.
The maths they did is:
(49°C - 39°C) / 49°C = 0.20 = 20%
If you use °F with 49 °C = 120°F, 39°C = 102°F, 25°C = 77°F:
(120°F - 102°F)/120°F= 0,15 = 15%, which is different
The math they should have done is :
((49°C-25°C) - (39°C-25°C)) / (49°C-25°C) = 0.42 = 42%
((120°F - 77°F) - (102°F - 77°F)) / (120°F - 77°F) = 0.42 = 42%, which is the same
The worst here is that the results are actually BETTER than what they advertise...
@@andysPARK You completely and utterly missed the point. We're not saying to actually use Kelvin. We're saying that they're abusing the scale for marketing to multiply a 10C difference into "20%," which isn't actually true. It's a lie or bad math to mislead customers. They can just say 10C. That's fine. They can be proud of 10C.
This is just absolutely GOLD, this video had me laughing out loud, from the "it isn't a theory, its math" to the dust filter on a plain steel surface
Really appreciate your channel, as I am getting ready to build a rig for the first time (instead of buying a new gaming laptop again), and these videos really do a good job of letting me know whose products to avoid, amongst everything else you guys are teaching me.. so kuddos to you!
Was considering the THERMALTAKE LIQUID CPU COOLER WATER 3.0 ULTIMATE for cooling, but I don't think so!
You're killing it, thanks for the great content over the years, keeps getting better, excited for the detailed PSU and fan tests.
I will say this: I had a Thermaltake branded water cooling system on my AMD Phenom II x6 1045T system a few years back (I do not upgrade PCs often, do not judge me for that) that was a single 120mm radiator I believe. My roommate had it maybe, 6 months he used it, no issues. I started using it on my Phenom II machine and it was great, even managed to get a slightly better overclock out of the processor with the cooler on there... But then, I think I had it 6-8 months and I noticed my processor running hotter, I had cleaned the radiator, and still, it was running 6*C higher than normal, at idle.... if I went into a game or anything demanding it was running 15*C+ hotter than normal and some stability issues. I clocked the CPU back to stock, and that helped a bit with the stability, but over the course of a week, the temps got worse and worse. I finally had enough, we had a spare air cooler and fan that I threw on and suddenly, I could overclock my CPU again to nearly what it was at and it was stable. Turns out that after maybe a year or so of use, the damned radiator was nearly EMPTY! And what little coolant was in there, had chunks of jelly like coolant and what looked like chunks of plastic in it. After only a year, where the hell did the coolant go? It NEVER leaked, not one drop. So, in roughly a year of use, their liquid cooler was nearly bone dry and had I not been keeping an eye on my temps, could have cooked my processor at worst, or been wondering why at the least I had no performance.
How dumb can you be to design a cooling liquid that is so chemically unstable that heat transform it into a solid over time?
Well, that just means they didn't tested it for a year...
Wow.
@@jas_bataillethat's some brain damage design ngl
OK but wtf @ the coolant turning into solid
It depends on what chemicals were in the water when they filled the radiator. If it wasn't chemicals, it could have been something growing in the water too. I have no idea what they did wrong, but in a year or just over, the cooler should not have failed, more so when the system was not really pushed all that hard. The Phenom II x6 processors in my experience do not run all that hot, not like the AMD FX processors anyway.
When I saw the bottom of the T100 I couldn't stop laughing.
Gotta have a dust cover for well nothing
@@MrNightmaresinner Umm, excuse me. You got a problem with a "zero-maintenance" filter?
I seriously thought it's just the video that's too dark when I can't see the vent
@@UnivegaSuperSportlol I guess I do. Im disappointed cause ITX needs more cases that are unique. Can't fault them on the feature of not needing to clean that filter.
Would love to get an actual review on this case now that Thermaltek has made some possitive changes to its design.
You made the TT 100 mini ITX case better, and for that, I've bought one. Glad they heard you!
I will buy a "It's not a theory, it's - like, MATH" tshirt. dew it
11:54 Thank god, they've finally figured it out. We can finally have a dust filter up against a solid frame to avoid getting dust on that particular section of the frame!!!
Laughed to hard at this
Great work GN, yet another informational/entertaining post. I’m about to build a Corsair Obsidian 1000D and I’d really like to fill it with TT’s Riing Trio fans but their software puts me off! I wanted their Pacific CL Rads too, but…. I’ve read a lot of reviews regarding leakage, now I don’t know what to do, LOL… “So close!”
I love this video because the TT 900 I received had fixed and upgraded every issue mentioned here about the TT 900 model and was already preassembled in the box.
Impressive magnetic mesh screen in every spot with the ability to add personal 3M filtering.
Todays longer AIO Tubes allowed me to complete my dream build of 100% eye candy wrapped in a Stealth Bomber.
When the geek squad came to install a TV they couldn't resist taking a photo.
I lost it at "it pulls air from the 4th dimension"
The Tesseract got me :D
LMAOOOO
Same
"shout out to Artosis"
Yes, Steve! The tower 100 is in fact an Artosis Pylon!
now we jst need to hope it wont be destroyed
That whole section of the takedown is hilarious.
@@johnuferbach9166 They certainly do NOT need to construct additional ones
If you don’t make a “it’s not a theory, it’s math” t-shirt, it will be a missed opportunity.
Loving this video. I have a Tower 100 and I absolutely love it (although anything above 3060ti still thermal throttles). Apparently I have you to thank that this case breathes at all. :D
"It's not a theory... it's math."
Exactly what I was thinking when he said theory. Man... this video killed me.
I have a question though unless I'm missing something.. If so.. Please please explain but aren't they both basically saying the same thing in context to ratios. Thermaltake is just using the ratio in which they think the consumers will bite but in essence its the same thing. I mean people have to be aware but most companies already do that kind of advertising!
@@LaLiLuLeLoX The difference is that Kelvin is an absolute scale which starts at 0 so that it is a much better representation of the thermal energy of an object. The Celsius Scale has an arbitrary 0 point which makes the claims completly pointless because i could also choose a scale which starts at 30°C and claim that i have a reduction from 19 to 9 degree. Its true that many companies try similar things like FPS Diagrams that just show a range from 60 to 80 fps so they can make a 5fps increase seem like a 100% increase but that does not make it better.
@@LaLiLuLeLoX The important part is that temperature is a relative scale of average random molecular kinetic energy so he's right in that to use a percentile on temperature you'd have to adjust for the unit of measurement. The easiest analogy I can think of is that a % from 100-150 is different from 1000-1050 even though its the same difference in unit, but he is nit picking pretty hard since they did specifically say 'temp.' and not per say 'cooling' which imo means that said % is relative to the temperature scale shown. Its still misleading and he has a point but it is him just being a dick to TT.
Steve I need that on a shirt... Best quote of 2020: "It's not a theory; it's like math". 08:10
Disappointment Shirt 2020 candidate
Thanks so much for this! I was looking at the Tower 100 and had no idea about the lack of air intake.
That was fixed by the time it was launched, this video is 3 years old.
Well, that's a relief!
All though I’m even MORE HAPPY VIDEOS LIKE THIS are keeping them honest, or at least helping it’s customers this way
“Before that, this video is brought to you by thermal...grizzly”
-Almost had me there 🤣
Thermaltake should come out with all their case components from 2000-2004. All the way down to crazy box art like metal dragons shooting electricity out of its eyes.
Lol
Don't forget their cigarette lighters and cupholders!
Old-school box art for pc parts was the shit. We need that corny glory back
Thermal takke xazer cases! A modernized version of those would be nice.
@@Grizzermacht LGR ?? :D
Damn, I really love the look of this case too. Was considering it for a mini-ITX build for my wife's work computer, but not if it's essentially going to be an oven for components.
Was considering Thermaltake parts and some cases but now have lost lot of faith and willingness to waste money when there are better products from different companies so thank you for the video showing their shortcomings and making me hve a deeper look into their products.
My god, this is the best video I've ever watched on GN. Steve needs to be like this on all GN's reviews. The 4th dimension crack had me dang-near crying I was laughing so much. I had to go back and watch it again./..
I can’t believe they literally put a dust filter over solid steel.
yeah same, if Thermaltake Engineers manage to exploit the 4th dimension, then yeah, they're going to produce the best cases, but for now...
The funny part is that TT would be absolutely correct to present the results as percentages only if they'd compared Deltas instead of temperatures...
Plus they could report a higher percentage figure.
@@coolcat23 Exactly! ;)
And no one could claim their figure doesn't make any sense...
i think they might have been comparing deltas, so i think they might have been correct, i think they might have misunderstood each other in that exchange
@@jbospecial No. No, the % is not related to a delta. You can check, by, doing the math.
@@jbospecial, unfortunately, they wasn't comparing deltas, listen fo what TT representative says: 6:52.
They calculated that percentage figure from actual temps:
(49-39)/49=0.2=20%
If they would calculate deltas, they'd get
(24-14)/24=0.42=42% (at 25C ambient temp)