The common problems in many groups comes up when survivors of one group share their experiences, and those from supposedly different groups realize they have similar problems that they can identify with and share about. I have seen in religious recovery groups where beliefs/theology had little impact but the control/high-demand/all or nothing/role playing issues were the problems they all shared. In one group, after a man shared the mental trauma he experienced in a small fundamentist church in rural Alabama, the woman next to him said, "If I wasn't looking at you, I would swear you were describing the mosque I grew up in in Lebanon."
Also desperately needed is a support group for the family/loved ones of those being victimized and under the hypnosis of a cult. Like AA has Alon . I am consumed with seeking info and plead on many platforms in comments for help and guidance on how to reach or help my loved ones involved . And yes I whole heartedly believe they are in danger .
In the 1980s there was Fundamentalist Anonymous that held meetings like, (in the spirit of) 12 step groups do, although it wasn't a 12 step group itself. A number of FA groups held meetings for a number of years but died out on their own. The have been other groups like the Cult Awareness Group and others. Some faded away while at least one was overtaken thru lawsuits by a major cult. I have seen a few in the past online, in the U.K. and down under, but they seem to have faded away. What these groups need are those who will keep the meetings/help going, knowing many will come and go and you have constant turnover....unlike traditional 12 step recovery groups where people stay to abstain or deal with their loved ones. The are 12 step groups who have online/zoom meetings and that could work if someone is able to keep it going.
I think one of the biggest problems is that most Christians have been taught that God is authoritarian rather than nurturing. They truly think God WANTS TO provide an EXACT answer to every question and every problem, like a micro-managing boss. So, every question must be answered on the Procrustean bed of Scripture or Revelation. However, I believe God is nurturing - he wants to care for us in such a way we develop Scripture-informed wisdom that takes principles and examples from Scripture and figures out how to apply them today. John Sanders’ book “Embracing Prodigals” explores this idea quite excellently IMO, even though he is socially much more liberal than I am.
Lord Jesus Christ is authoritative and so is His body, that comes with authority. Authority is a foundation in life along with discipline, discipline that is based upon maturity not abuse. But He is also nurturing as well and He left with Peter, if you love me, then look after my sheep. It can be unhealthy and imbalanced to be all nurturing as well. To have the right balance is important, we have a right relationship with God about that, and can have peace and make peace, however not just evil, but people corrupt authority along with nurture which is the state that people finds themselves in, its important to have a healthy, true and right balance about that, that can bring healing and release, not just love.
@@home8630 Having authority and being authoritative are two different things. Just like a teacher in a classroom has authority, so they can keep things the way they should be. To be authoritative, the teacher would tell the kids how to sit, stand, smile, talk, how to hold a book etc. That is not healthy, it is abusive, especially if she is harsh and punitive in how she goes about it. Which is exactly how these cults are.
Something like this, I am almost positive, is happening in my Catholic church through an international program run by an Anglican. I hesitate to state my denomination, for risk of the "Catholics aren't Christians" argument, but I will, because it does, IMHO indicate how widespread the issue is. (And BTW, I already know the Catholic organization is far far from perfect, but, for the time being at least, it's the one I got.) Melissa's input is so helpful for me, as a victim of previous trauma, trying to deal with being in this situation. (In fact, I was just barely empathized with when trying to state my concerns and that has been very difficult.) And thank you John, for saying that "the whole empire of cult hierarchy is crumbling right now". I really, really hope you are right.
I'm sorry you are going through that. There are definitely Catholic cults. Cults are everywhere, in every walk of life. Lots of marriages and families are cults. I was in the Branham cult, but my marriage met all the criteria for being a two person cult.
@lesliewells-ig5dl Thank you! I grew up with a narcissistic mother, so I know about family cult dynamics, too. There have been and probably still are Catholic cults but what I am referring to is (in my belief) an outside cult run by an Evangelical Anglican which is infiltrating many types of churches, not just Catholic.
They had a totally different mindset in the days of the apostles than we do now. We don't have to stay on the level of the knowledge they had over 2000 years ago, but a lot of groups want to keep us in that straightjacket of ignorance.
You need a wider audience. There is another meaning to that scripture belief about exposing, its reproving. To reprove openly, not just hiddenly. But also the need for correction is great, so that is coming forth, correction with reproving. Before repentance can even take place or even justice and healing, that correction with reproving is important. Before connection there is correction. Sometimes people need to hear the word No and to have regard for that word.
I am not a troll, but one who, left a church I was at for 35 years. I do not believe what I suffered was all the fault of the leadership, not was it all me. There was a mindset that did not allow for using your mind to solve problems. I began to see that there were clear deviations from what the Bible was saying and what was being preached. It was in shades of meaning derived from study in the original languages vs the English translation and looking into the historical background of how a person of that time would have understood what was being said. I feel that according to scripture, God does give authority to men on the earth, but not to do that which is outside the boundaries of scripture. We all are accountable to the word of God. Besides, the authority delegated is to make disciples of Jesus, not a tribe to follow us. Perhaps further study will prove this wrong, but until I see otherwise in scripture, this is where I will stand. Something that I feel should be addressed is what does not constitute abuse. Rebuke for sin is not abuse unless there is no hope given for you. That is not abuse. Being excommunicated because of gross sin is not abuse. Being excommunicated because you didn't tow the line probably is. The line between abuse and proper church discipline is hard for someone who is sinning is to hard to discern, because when in sin, everything seems to be abuse. There are so many that run from correction and many that correct what is not wrong, we need to know Jesus for ourselves and help other without trying to build our kingdom.
Thanks John and Adam and Melissa!!
Thank y’All for telling your life-changing stories..and offering a forum for others to do the same!
The common problems in many groups comes up when survivors of one group share their experiences, and those from supposedly different groups realize they have similar problems that they can identify with and share about.
I have seen in religious recovery groups where beliefs/theology had little impact but the control/high-demand/all or nothing/role playing issues were the problems they all shared.
In one group, after a man shared the mental trauma he experienced in a small fundamentist church in rural Alabama, the woman next to him said, "If I wasn't looking at you, I would swear you were describing the mosque I grew up in in Lebanon."
Also desperately needed is a support group for the family/loved ones of those being victimized and under the hypnosis of a cult.
Like AA has Alon .
I am consumed with seeking info and plead on many platforms in comments for help and guidance on how to reach or help my loved ones involved .
And yes I whole heartedly believe they are in danger .
In the 1980s there was Fundamentalist Anonymous that held meetings like, (in the spirit of) 12 step groups do, although it wasn't a 12 step group itself. A number of FA groups held meetings for a number of years but died out on their own. The have been other groups like the Cult Awareness Group and others. Some faded away while at least one was overtaken thru lawsuits by a major cult.
I have seen a few in the past online, in the U.K. and down under, but they seem to have faded away. What these groups need are those who will keep the meetings/help going, knowing many will come and go and you have constant turnover....unlike traditional 12 step recovery groups where people stay to abstain or deal with their loved ones. The are 12 step groups who have online/zoom meetings and that could work if someone is able to keep it going.
"It is lonely speaking out"- Melissa
...lots of condemnation.
Support network, great idea !!
I love the idea of connecting all the anti message and NAR channels. The anti scientology channels are in a network called SP TV.
I think one of the biggest problems is that most Christians have been taught that God is authoritarian rather than nurturing. They truly think God WANTS TO provide an EXACT answer to every question and every problem, like a micro-managing boss. So, every question must be answered on the Procrustean bed of Scripture or Revelation. However, I believe God is nurturing - he wants to care for us in such a way we develop Scripture-informed wisdom that takes principles and examples from Scripture and figures out how to apply them today. John Sanders’ book “Embracing Prodigals” explores this idea quite excellently IMO, even though he is socially much more liberal than I am.
Yes, exactly!! I believed that way in the cult and it made it where I needed those answers from the prophet or pastor.
Exactly. ❤.
Lord Jesus Christ is authoritative and so is His body, that comes with authority. Authority is a foundation in life along with discipline, discipline that is based upon maturity not abuse. But He is also nurturing as well and He left with Peter, if you love me, then look after my sheep. It can be unhealthy and imbalanced to be all nurturing as well. To have the right balance is important, we have a right relationship with God about that, and can have peace and make peace, however not just evil, but people corrupt authority along with nurture which is the state that people finds themselves in, its important to have a healthy, true and right balance about that, that can bring healing and release, not just love.
@@home8630 Having authority and being authoritative are two different things. Just like a teacher in a classroom has authority, so they can keep things the way they should be. To be authoritative, the teacher would tell the kids how to sit, stand, smile, talk, how to hold a book etc. That is not healthy, it is abusive, especially if she is harsh and punitive in how she goes about it. Which is exactly how these cults are.
@@home8630 Authoritarian NOT authoritative
Something like this, I am almost positive, is happening in my Catholic church through an international program run by an Anglican. I hesitate to state my denomination, for risk of the "Catholics aren't Christians" argument, but I will, because it does, IMHO indicate how widespread the issue is. (And BTW, I already know the Catholic organization is far far from perfect, but, for the time being at least, it's the one I got.)
Melissa's input is so helpful for me, as a victim of previous trauma, trying to deal with being in this situation. (In fact, I was just barely empathized with when trying to state my concerns and that has been very difficult.) And thank you John, for saying that "the whole empire of cult hierarchy is crumbling right now". I really, really hope you are right.
I'm sorry you are going through that. There are definitely Catholic cults. Cults are everywhere, in every walk of life. Lots of marriages and families are cults. I was in the Branham cult, but my marriage met all the criteria for being a two person cult.
@lesliewells-ig5dl Thank you! I grew up with a narcissistic mother, so I know about family cult dynamics, too. There have been and probably still are Catholic cults but what I am referring to is (in my belief) an outside cult run by an Evangelical Anglican which is infiltrating many types of churches, not just Catholic.
They had a totally different mindset in the days of the apostles than we do now. We don't have to stay on the level of the knowledge they had over 2000 years ago, but a lot of groups want to keep us in that straightjacket of ignorance.
John, what is this Friday program you were talking about? Where/when can that be accessed?
I think he means the "Our Stories" podcasts/videos that he posts every Friday here and elsewhere.
@@KeepQuestioning243 Thanks.
You need a wider audience. There is another meaning to that scripture belief about exposing, its reproving. To reprove openly, not just hiddenly. But also the need for correction is great, so that is coming forth, correction with reproving. Before repentance can even take place or even justice and healing, that correction with reproving is important. Before connection there is correction. Sometimes people need to hear the word No and to have regard for that word.
Spiritualizing trauma is a great way to dismiss it and revictimize the traumatized person and take no accountability.
Congratulations on your new podcast! What is the name of it?
A lot of these groups don't believe that people have agency. They consider that not biblical.
Isn't it interesting how many people set out to prove the message true find out it's false and get out!!
I am not a troll, but one who, left a church I was at for 35 years. I do not believe what I suffered was all the fault of the leadership, not was it all me. There was a mindset that did not allow for using your mind to solve problems. I began to see that there were clear deviations from what the Bible was saying and what was being preached. It was in shades of meaning derived from study in the original languages vs the English translation and looking into the historical background of how a person of that time would have understood what was being said. I feel that according to scripture, God does give authority to men on the earth, but not to do that which is outside the boundaries of scripture. We all are accountable to the word of God. Besides, the authority delegated is to make disciples of Jesus, not a tribe to follow us. Perhaps further study will prove this wrong, but until I see otherwise in scripture, this is where I will stand. Something that I feel should be addressed is what does not constitute abuse. Rebuke for sin is not abuse unless there is no hope given for you. That is not abuse. Being excommunicated because of gross sin is not abuse. Being excommunicated because you didn't tow the line probably is. The line between abuse and proper church discipline is hard for someone who is sinning is to hard to discern, because when in sin, everything seems to be abuse. There are so many that run from correction and many that correct what is not wrong, we need to know Jesus for ourselves and help other without trying to build our kingdom.