Thanks for watching the video! Please let me know what I got right, what I got wrong, and any of your opinions on the points made. Links in the description for those who want to view the Commentaries themselves. Likes (or dislikes), shares, comments, and subscriptions would all help me out a ton. My Twitch: www.twitch.tv/emerdareloth40 Discord Server: discord.gg/v8JJ8tqr. Thanks, -Dareloth
6:17 Bro, why do you bother with Elevenlabs voiceovers when you can read like this? If you want to use AI so that it sounds like the original actors, I'd recommend using an option that "covers" your readings with their voice profiles.
@@owenrobson5617 CHIM isn't the console. It's a philosophical concept heavily inspired by Kirkbride's research on Buddhism and Theosophy (it's almost exactly moksha/nibana/nirvana, contrasted with damma/dharma, the rules or "wheel," Aurbis in the language of Elder Scrolls, to which ordinary mortals are bound; one of the esoteric secrets of Buddhism is that it preaches adherence to the dharma but also strife against samsara, the dharmic cycle of rebirth, and kamma/karma, the volitional change of cause and effect, to achieve nirvana) that sort of vaguely and superficially resembles a player using the console, because like using the console it allows one to transcend rules of the universe to which others are chained. That one blog about CHIM being the pause menu and command console and creation set did so much damage to Elder Scrolls lore discussion.
It's kinda hard to appreciate Mankar from what little screentime he got, but dude surely is an achiever. His "paradise" and the fact that he replicated daedra's reincarnation in Oblivion after their death on Nirn is very impressive.
The tortures in Camoran's paradise were meant to make the cultists spirits the same as daedras who fear no death or torment like mortals. It was no punishment but part of the process to refine them into true immortals who care nothing for what happens to their body since it will be reborn, just like the daedra. It seems in the game like no one really explained this to the cultists or they just really hate the process which anyone would. Eventually going mad and then reforging their spirit into something that's the goal, something that's been tortured enough might take years.
I have been hearing about this theory for years and I really like it. Also perhaps the fact that this part was omissioned was part of it? Perhaps they had to go through the Agony in fullest, to truly be rid of all mortal weakness, through pain. Maybe if they knew they would be more prepared? Maybe it would muddle the process? Hard to say. But I really like this idea.
39:29 if you check mythic dawn commentaries 4 and vivecs sermon 28 (and a couple other sources uesp cites) it says that the magna-ge created mehrunes dagon to put an end to molag bal’s and the dreughs tyrannical rule over lyg. He is “the razor”, imbued with hope to cut down molag bal. Dagon’s whole thing is not just destruction for its own sake, but for revolution, which is why mankar Cameron is working with him specifically to “free” the mundus.
I don't believe we ever get a mention of Molag Bal, specifically in the Commentaries. Rather, he's referred to in the Sermons of Vivec, which, again, are both by MK. We get a reference to a city called Malbioge in the Commentaries, which could be taken to be a city of Molag Bal's (similar naming structure?). Definitely makes sense though. Mehrunes Dagon has many spheres, not just destruction. Would've been a good thing for me to bring up, nonetheless. Thanks for the comment!
I think an interesting twist for a future TES game would be the Thalmor dominating Tamriel and Mehrunes Dagon becoming a patron of the player who assists in overthrowing them.
What I’ve never bought into is the idea that Mehrunes Dagon, as Prince of Change and Revolution, would install a world order wherein the faithful are “set above all mortals” forever. It seems antithetical to his sphere and nature to desire that outcome.
i kinda imagine it wouldn't be permanent, and he'd back the underdogs when they'd inevitably rebel, maybe keeping it in a revolutionary loop but also: dagon thinks that nirn belongs to him, right? he may just be so pissed about not getting nirn that he's acted outside of his normal nature consistency whenever it's in the picture
Honestly I've always seen the idea Dagon cultists KEEP ON GETTING that they're gonna be the ones in power when everything is said and done to be something they just sorta... insert. Putting words in Dagon's mouth. Like he (dagon) is like "We will topple the tyrants and lay low the current order" and the cultists are like "To set us above all mortals then, right??" "..." "To set us above all mortals then... right????" Whereas in reality any reality where Dagon wins would just be a constant turning cycle of rebellions with no true rulers.
@@Spacecoreinspace I think you're right on your first assertion. For the need for change and for revolution to have a purpose there must be unfairness and order that can be challenged. After all, Dagon is specifically change and revolution through the destruction of the old to give way to the new. It wouldn't even go against his nature to use order and promises of eternal rule as means to manipulate mortals into enacting his plans. Wouldn't be the first time, nor the last. It's also a reoccurring theme with Daedric Princes that they often act in ways to perpetuate themselves. They seem to be less ruled by their nature and sphere and more beings that enact their sphere as by some unknown ordain by the Magna-Ge or whatever, as they all do things from time to time to enable the need for their realm to exist.
You Absolute Legend. I can't believe how detailed and original this lore dive is. You know you're deep in the rabbit hole when you get redirected to adult entertainment sites. Your voice acting is brilliant, btw I want that Mythic Dawn mug!
Remember, Dagon is not just the prince of destruction, he is change and revolution. This is why Dagon targets the status quo, why his artifact, mehrunes razor, changes reality itself. I think that the paradise is as it is because Dagon is not attempting to create a new status quo, he is seeking to destroy the current one. The Dawn members don’t understand this and thus are tortured, they sought power from being downtrodden. Dagon also allows you as the player to enter paradise and kill Camaron, thus destroying the potential new status quo created by the Dawn.
Yes. I've heard the take before that Dagon did kind of win in the end anyway because the Oblivion Crisis and the disintegration of the Dragonborn Emperors completely destabilized Tamriel (lots of change and revolution).
@@theemerdareloth Dagoth, the prince of shaking things up, honestly one of the most interesting deadra with a lot of potential even if sadly he is a lot of time portrayed as just, the big red devil dude of destruction which is so sad. For me it's so fascinating a deadra prince that a lot of people in marge of society would prey to because there unsatisfied with the status quo but on the long term will never truly satisfy anyone as what's interesting him is not the cause or the after of a revolution, but revolution itself. In a sense I see him as a god of time in a sense (I know there's already a god of time in akatosh) because he is a force that will never allow the world to stagnate, a force that seek change, not for the sake of a better tomorrow but for the sake of change itself. Sorry for the long reply that just repeat itself but I really like dagon and i'm really sad that the elder scroll didn't do justice to the deadra prince. Hell perhaps one day the player could seek Merhunes as an ally as he could be a very interesting ally in due time, but one that will never stay an ally.
@@prophetedubaroque5136Bingo! It's why, after learning his lore, Dagon, to me, comes off as the epitome of Chaotic Neutral. He's very fickle, yet when it comes to bringing change to the world, Dagon doesn't really care about what kind of change you bring to the world with his power, so long as you can pique his interest with your plans and have the means to do so. Especially when you compare Dagon to some truly evil Daedra like Molag Bal
@@prophetedubaroque5136 you are exactly right, and i think that him being the prince of change is why Mankar ultimately failed. Camaron wanted to bring the stagnant merethic era back by converting tamriel into the lorkhan realm again, and by reverting time. Dagon is dependent on time to cause change, and so he allows the player to enter paradise and overthrow Mankar.
Nymics are fucking cool as an aspect of TES lore and I'd love someone to go in depth on them. From swordsmen who learn the true names of their blades to wizards trying to understand an aspect of magic so hard they learn a nymic
I have only played "TES V: Skyrim", but I dig the entire series' deep lore. I, too, would enjoy a video that analyzed Tamriel's hidden underworking. The vanished dwarves harnessed reality's tonal architecture. Yokudan refugee bands trained and fought using the Shehai, or song-sword. Nordic heroes toppled armies with the power of their voices. It's really fascinating stuff! musical tones are implied to play a fundamental role in the world's makeup
For the idea that the aedra are “weak” or “silent”, i always imagined it was because they’re spread out across mundus as the elements and natural laws and as such can’t spare the resources to speak directly The daedra, however, aren’t bound that way and as such can spare the attention/resources to appear directly
I REALLY want to believe the razor theory is correct, and the fact that mehrunes razor was potentially able to essentially 'slice' someone's identity into pieces, allowing them to make a new one, is one of those obscure and infinitely complex things that makes me absolutely LOVE TES lore. Those esoteric and vague things like CHIM, mantling, the various realms, and so on; they are all things i could listen to lore about for hours and hours
This quenched my thirst for a deep delve into the Mythic Dawn! Thank you! Oblivion was my first ES game and Mankar Camoran was just so enigmatic I truly wanted to know a more about the lore behind the cult!
Damn, the algorithm finally did right by me with recommending this video. Amazingly done man, definitely gonna sub and watch more of your stuff! Nothing better than an incredibly researched Elder Scrolls deep dive like this; keep it up. I feel like this channel is about to blowup!
The way it sounds when stated bluntly is badass but in the context of saxhleel lore it just kind of makes sense. Argonians are wild beasts that were warped into sapience by the Hist, meaning they mirror the Hist's attitudes, and they are strongest near the Hist, which can change their bodies to suit the situation. The Hist are a colony organism with a hive-mind, appearing to be trees, that have colonies all over Oblivion and originally came from Sithis or the void of Oblivion itself; Collectively, they sound a lot like an extra Daedric Prince who (like Sheogorath and Mehrunes, who are odd even by Daedric standards by their very natures) transcends a lot of the rules that bind other Princes. This is reinforced by the fact that while every other race "changes places" with their enantiomorphs along with their gods who do the same at the end of each kalpa (nords swapping with altmer, Mara with Nocturnal, etc), the Hist and Redguards are unique in that they each have ways of hiding outside of the world during Alduin's/Satakal's eating, allowing them to return with cultural continuity- Thus the only truly and consistently Anuic race is Redguard, and the only truly and consistently Padomaic race (or deity) is Hist, and by extension their followers, the Saxhleel (called Argonians in the current kalpa, after the name of the place where they live in the greatest numbers). With all of that in mind, the Argonians invading the Deadlands is like the Dark Seducers invading Mania or something- Not exactly normal, but not exactly surprising or impressive either. It's just conquest by one Daedric faction against another.
Excellent videos, I think the academic approach of looking through a historical lens has been quite refreshing in lore/theory videos. The way you lay your claims and evidence have been awesome.
I though about naming this video: "Dareloth's Commentaries on the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes," but it doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well haha.
This is one of the best Oblivion lore videos I've watched! I know I'm late to the party but I just wanted to say what a fantastic job you did here. There's so much interesting stuff beneath Oblivion's jank.
Thank you sm for finding and compiling all of this juicy lore into an awesome video- I’ve always been fascinated by the Mythic Dawn and Camoran, and this definitely tickled the tism 🔥
Quality video! Solid take on Mankar Camoran. Shame he didn't get more screen time in TES IV. In my opinion, he's the best villain in TES series because of the quality writing and charismatic voice acting, particularly his Gaiar Alata speech. Opportunity was wasted, however, because it could have been so much better.
A theory I've had about Mankar and his bosmeri ancestry: he was able to discover and alter his protonymic because of his bosmeri heritage. What are the bosmer famous for? Shapeshifting! Using Mehrunes Razor to manipulate the usually uncontrollable shifting that bosmer do via the Wild Hunt.
Thank you gor making this, sleeper. And thank you for making the connection between Mankar Camoran and Michael Kirkbride... we were all thinking it. May his teaching endure forever. Awesome stuff. I wish you would delve into other Daedra more... or perhaps, daedric lore. I would also love who drew more lines of connection between Elder Scrolls and it's silent source material, DnD. Nobody ever does that, but I feel like the some of the obvious inspiration would be interesting to discuss. I mean, Elder Scrolls was created by three devs who worked for Bethesda while playing DnD together.
this is a great analysis, it's really refreshing to see some new and well-substantiated information and opinion in this space by the way, i think camoran is trying to appear as an ayleid or aldmer rather than an altmer. it would be consistent with his desire to go back to an older state of mundus and his appreciation of ancient elven architecture
I think he WAS onto something, Dagon clearly has more going on than we originally thought, far from right about everything but changing to an altmer and wearing the amulet of kings, the tools he discovered certainly worked. I’ve never believed all Daedra are evil, pretty Dunmerish on that, but Dagon was NOT in my list of positive Daedra.
Khajiit also don't view Daedric Princes as categorically evil, neither do Argonians (they have their own thing going on with the Hist, and Sithis who is neither Daedra nor Aedra). Really this whole notion of good Aedra vs bad Daedra seems like something imposed by the Empire on other cultures with much more nuanced views.
Whether Lorkhan was the betrayer or bettayed is usually the key distinction between Anuic and Padomiac religios in elder scrolls. We hear the Anuic one more because the Aldmer had the oldest written records on the subject. I think the 'skin of gold line' refers to the orignal tales of these Aldmer, as they would have the first people to claim and write down that Lorkhan was a betrayer. Also, the Scarab is simply used in numerous elder scrolls sources to refer to Lorkhan.
This is only a thought, I have no evidence to back this up, and there may in fact be information in the lore that contradicts this. What if Mehrunes Dagon was in fact created by the Magne ge in lyg, but they created him using either the corpse or Nymic of Lorkhan? This would explain why they are both the Daedric Prince of change, and why Mankar is associated specifically with Dagon and not any of the other Princes. It would also make Dagon, quite literally, heartless. This could explain his somewhat brutal nature, despite the intentions of the Magne ge when creating him to reclaim mundus.
In Egyptian mythos, a scarab is a powerful symbol among all the people, an icon of wealth and fortune to the middle class and a seal of power and authority when used by the high class. It was commonly associated with Khepri, a scarab himself who arose to divinity from a ball of dung and represented the rising sun (not necessarily the full sun itself) and the act of creation itself in emulation of the universal creator. Tamriel ae Daedroth, Tamriel is Daedra(/oth), Scarab ae Aurbex, likely Scarab is Universe (aurbis). In continuing with the sermon, Mankar reasons that aedra lack the divine spark, authority, or royalty in itself to rule the universe as a godhead, they are not truly gods under this definition. Kirkbride likely had CHIM, the syllable of royalty, on his mind in this context, the act of mortals attaining divinity through a meta understanding of the dream they inhabit, using the trials of Lorkhan and the mundus as a stepping stone to find the godhead, which Vivec was accredited with accomplishing, and Tiber Septim/Talos likely came to understand as well.
damn you really went down the rabbit hole for this one! i personally love the view of dagon as a prince of hope and find it a really interesting perspective. great coverage of the commentaries and camoran here dude
One of Dagon's spheres of influence is "Change". Change can be both good and bad. Dagon would be a very neutral daedra if his other spheres werent so warlike.
This is an excellent video and so detailed and well constructed. I’m thankful to have gotten this in my feed. I’ve been recently replaying Oblivion and this is just what I’ve been looking for. It goes without saying, subscribed.
I think "oath breakers" refer to Magnus and the Magna Ge, who fled Mundus soon after it's creation without having completed their "oath" to it's creation like the Aedra and Ehlonfey
I used to listen to his ramblings of Mankhar Cameron. He definitely had a point. Especially the point that Nirn is just another Deadric plaon much like oblivion.
Man, I remember reading the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes playing Oblivion years ago. Always stuck with me, something about the Mythic Dawn- Mankar Camoran was definitely onto something.
I always appreciate when you bring in Elder Scrolls Legends content to help your theory's. I feel it gives you a unique perspective and evidence. I don't see Lore videos from more established channels referencing Legends very often. This video was so good I just want to add a reminder your still mortal. At 42:42 there's two small typos..
Amazing Video! Loved the Charakter back in my teens! Thanks for the Lore! Keep up the work! I'd love to see a break down of the Gods and their followings! :D
One thing I would like to point out that a lot of people I feel unfortunately fail to point out. Is that Mehrunes Dagon isnt just a Daedric Prince of Destruction and Change. But also Revolution. Revolution is an important and interesting concept to attach to a Daedric Prince because in most understandings of revolution, revolution is a purely human phenomenon and not the sort of thing one can chalk up to forces of nature like most of what is attributed to various Daedric Princes, and I think it really helps characterize Mehrunes Dagon in a way that the games have simply failed to. Its part of the reason that I think PatricianTV, love him or hate him, was onto something with his Oblivion Video and his Mehrunes Dagon theory that actually, Mehrunes Dagon got what he wanted in the end. He got a massive change, a revolution. Just because it wasn't Mankar Camorans version of a revolution, doesn't mean it wasn't a revolution.
I wish Mankar could have been a character which reoccurred and showed up outside of the two times we see him. It would have been better for players to interact with him a few more times and to listen to his words more. I think lots of players don’t even speak to him in Paradise and just attack anyway.
I forgot Camoran stated Dagon would "remake" the world. The amount of times some star-aligned halfwit saved the world from its apparently natural kalpar (calpar? Calpa? Kal...) recycle is getting kind of outrageous. I'm an Alduin apologist at this point. Jagged brother was just the final boss of nature when Sean Bean stopped Dagon from doing Dagon shit. When do we just, you know, let the world end? It's the only way to "bring the Dwemer back" probably, too. Is the Dreamer in a coma at this point because of how long this current cycle is? Where's the philosophical "can we/should we" regarding the world-ending threat of the week? TES6 is just gonna be TES4 and 5 in a new location with no new commentary on anything, isn't it? Honestly, at this point, I'm sick of saving the world. Where's my RPG choice to just let it happen? Maybe I wanted to join Mankar Camoran... like who doesn't want to follow the guy who basically made his own Daedric realm? That's crazy. You know what? You've convinced me. I'm joining a cult.
What a great video. I would count myself among those who find his arguments at least a bit persuasive. Much of what he says seems to be supported, at least in theory, by the structure of the creation myths.
Camoran being depicted as an Altmer is probably supposed to represent something similar to the Chimer in-engine. Notably in 'The Changed Ones', the Chimer/Velothi were changed by Boethiah, and of course the Dunmer later took their gray-skinned form from the influence of Azurah. Basically, if Mer are in some sense descendants of Aedra, they can also similarly become the "children" of Daedra. Maybe this is a Merish analogue to Mantling? Consider that Boethiah and Azurah changed the culture and thus naming convention of their Chimer and Dunmer, Dagon changes the nymices of his Mythic Dawn cult, and Talos was Tiber Septim was Hjalti Early-Beard. Very telling, if Camoran was an 'equal' to Dagon and the player is mantling Sheogorath/Jyggalag... As for the Skin of Gold, the conflict happening in the Morrowind backstory and MQ is a shadowplay of the Monomyth in which the Tribunal are the Aedra, Dagoth Ur is Dagon and the Nerevarine is Lorkhan. The Chimer have skin of gold because they are emulating the Aedra, who have true Skin of Gold (sunlight or magicka). This shadowplay is interesting because it suggests a relationship between Lorkhan and Dagon similar to that between Nerevar and Dagoth Ur. Given that Sheogorath/Jyggalag rules over two demi-planes, the idea of Lorkhan/Dagon ruling simultaneously over Lyg/Tamriel is interesting. Tamriel with its towers is to the rest of Nirn as Vvardenfell with its tower is to the rest of Morrowind.
You know the thing about cultists, they get told so many lies that their "truths" are rarely fact. You don't need to make excuses for Bethesda if you consider that in the real world flat earthers exist. Sometimes people are just wrong.
Iirc, Dagon was created to overthrow the Dreugh, both as a prince of hope and revolution. That doesn't make him "Good" though, as hope for something Different doesn't always lead to things becoming better.
Is it possible Mantra Camoran was a shezzarine / avatar of Lorkhan? It may explain his longevity and perhaps why he can wear the amulet of kings as Tiber Septim (who had dragons blood) mantled Lorkhan to become Talos. Also it may explain why his followers see him as an equal with mehrunes Dagon and how he changed his appearance using the razor (Lorkhan is affiliated with change after all). Of course he would hate the Aedra for betraying Lorkhan as they destroyed him, and his respect for the Daedra as owners of planes, as he may be with Mundus / Tamriel.
The mention of the “Waters of Oblivion” is a pretty good indicator that they are related to Mundus. A lot of Kirkbride’s terminology and concepts are the same as real life ones or at least reference them, The Waters in our world refers to this conditioned realm we exist in but also tends to include any other realm that has a Dependant existence. A common theme in mystic characters who attain great divinity is that they overcome The Waters (Jesus walks upon water, Mithras crosses the river, the Buddha tells you to grasp the other shore [additional note I’m fairly sure the Shore allegory is used multiple times in TES]), their art is considered Royal (Chim) which they use to become more than all the Gods before them. But that extra part is a bit off track, a discussion for elsewhere.
In watching this I've had a realization that Mankar Camoran's views have exactly the right amount of grounding to be extremely compelling. If he were talking complete nonsense it'd be worthless, and if there were any MORE evidence in his favor it'd both be disappointingly orthodox as an Edgy Dark Fantasy Religion, and in that classic Elder Scrolls range of 'cool idea that they never actually depict'. But in this exact range, it's a concept that's interesting enough to have potential legs and provide an interesting interpretation for the world, while never actually begging for a more direct depiction or confirmation.
I just want to let you know I really enjoyed this video - really well done, and really piqued my interest. I wonder how Camoran's twin children fit into how he was remade, especially since I believe they have some interesting lore of their own?
Thank you! Mankar refers to ravens throughout the Xarxes, which is his son's name, and he mentions his daughter, Ruma, whose name is something in Ayleid, I believe.
@@theemerdareloth Master Dareloth! How lovely! Honestly - this entire passage from the Commetaries about Ruma is chilling and compelling at the same time: `Falter now and become one with the wayside orphans that feed me. Follow and I shall adore you from inside. My first daughter ran from the Dagonite road. Her name was Ruma and I ate her with no bread, and made another, which learned, and I loved that one and blackbirds formed her twin behind all time.` I love how this is written - horrifying, fascinating - and I can take quite a few different meanings about what Mankar is actually saying here. Did he remaking her, or is he speaking about creating Raven to love instead?
@fitz7231 Yeah, it's definitely open to interpretation. It's even possible he recreated Ruma, this time with a nymic, and with her came Raven. We also do not know anything about their mother, so are they like artificial creations, Daedra, etc...?
I would like to add some more context to the nymics with the minutes from the Lusty Argonion Historical Society The Debate The evening’s debate was on whether a Daedra’s protonymic changes or remains constant. Gondyr argues that the protonymic is an “essential” part of a Daedra and that changing the protonymic would change the Daedra. Since the Daedric “Princes” have been unchanged (with the possible exception of Malacath, of course) for many years, this suggests (to Gondyr’s fevered imagination) that the protonymic is “as unchanging and eternal as the Admantium Tower.” Ulrorn shows unexpected insight when he says, “Its name may change, but if you banish a Scamp, it’s still a Scamp.” After some slurred explanations, he is apparently asserting that the changes necessary to alter a Daedra’s protonymic are smaller than the changes necessary to alter a Daedra’s nature. Or, in other words, Azura would still be the morning and evening star, even if her protonymic changed. Boethiah would still govern insights, even with another protonymic. Etc. Gondyr tries to argue against Ulrorn (which is surely not a difficult task), but he is distracted by a passing serving girl and loses the floor. Shahavra tells a fanciful tale about an unfortunate Dagi who lazily summoned the same daedroth twice and painfully learned that the protonymic only works once. This would favor the idea that the protonymic does change, if the Khajiit were not all liars. Dhavin points out that various Daedra have had their protonymics discovered in the past. He argues that since no Daedra “Princes” are currently enslaved, this suggests that the protonymic is, as he puts it, a “one trick pony.” Ulrorn moves that Dhavin spends too much time with horses. Ulrorn withdraws this motion under threat of Dhavin’s long memory and fertile imagination. Julius idly asks if Aedra have protonymics. Varinturco boldly asserts that of course Aedra have protonymics (and, in fact, the fool argues that all living things do!), but that the protonymics of Aedra, men, and mer cannot be “spelled, pronounced, or ennumerated” in the Mundus. Not only would it be ineffective, it would be literally unknowable. Varinturco claims to be quoting a book by some crazy Altmer who lives in a giant clock, as if that gives his argument any additional weight. Varinturco rambles on about a “neonymic” (?) that is some kind of second protonymic, but he is, fortunately, interrupted. Gondyr moves that Varinturco has had too much to drink. The motion is seconded by your humble scribe, but, alas, no vote is taken. Arielle wonders if the act of banishment (due to the alleged dissolution of spirit) changes the nature of a Daedra enough to change their protonymic. Quiet, beautiful Orphala (if only she were not an Orethi!) tells a poignant, if all too brief, story about a Daedra she met in Tear who feared banishment because he feared losing his love for another Daedra. Apparently, he believed that if he were banished, he would no longer be in love, for in the process of re-forming himself, he might forget his love or lose it. Orphala was not sure of the precise meaning of his words, but this suggests that the process is traumatic enough to change a Daedra’s protonymic, if not their basic nature. In light of this story, Gondyr and Dhavin enthusiastically agree with Arielle’s theory. Even I, your humble scribe, cannot recall a counterexample for this idea, though I doubt anything regarding the Daedra it is so simple. Dhavin moves that the LAHS vote on the idea that banishment itself changes the protonymic. The motion passes unanimously, in spite of Varinturco’s repeated attempts to take the floor and discuss his “neonymic” notion. Your humble scribe moves that this unprecedented agreement is a cause for celebration. This motion also passes unanimously. Drinking ensues. Just to spoil the rare consensus, Artonia recalls a story about the mysterious disappearance of the Battlespire several years ago. She heard a rumor from one of her aunts who was a Battlemage at the time (see what passes for scholarship these days?) that Mehrunes Dagon invaded the Battlespire(!), and he could resist his protonymic because he changed it or added some kind of surname (Varinturco begins shouting about that neonymic nonsense here again, but he is rightfully ignored). To prevent Mehrunes Dagon from reaching the rest of Tamriel, the Battlemages broke the moorings, thus the “disappearance” (if the “Battlespire” was ever more than legend, anyway). This is no less plausible than any other story I’ve heard over the years, but how anyone could know the truth of it when there were no survivors (or public evidence of any kind) is beyond my understanding. In conclusion, Artonia asks whether forward-thinking Daedra could change their protonymic or add some kind of surname to protect themselves from mortals who have learned their true, invocational name. Varinturco finally gets his chance to take the floor, adding his febrile imaginings to Artonia’s rumor. He claims to have met a survivor of the Battlespire (a man named, apparently, Chimer-and if that does not discredit this fanciful tale, I don’t know what will). This “Chimer” (who is not a mer!) claims that Mehrunes Dagon did, indeed, attack the Battlespire (after cursing him to live forever or some such nonsense), and that he did, indeed, add a surname (or “neonymic” as Varinturco insists we call it) to his protonymic for additional protection. Varinturco goes on and on about the alleged trials of this “Chimer” and some nameless hero (we’ve all heard that one before!), but there’s no point recording it for posterity when the fool is obviously making it all up. Varinturco ends his rambling by moving that the LAHS summon Mehrunes Dagon, politely ask him his protonymic (and neonymic), banish him, summon him again, and “see if it works.” This practical and entirely harmless motion fails due to laughter preventing a quorum.
I remember reading a piece of lore that states the Altmer believe they are the closest remnants to the Et’Ada that became mortal races and only that race. Maybe that’s why Mankar Cameron appears as a Altmer after using Mehrunes razor to change his Nymic. As they are the closest thing to a mers secret/true name
Me as a 12 year old playing Oblivion for the first time: Oh so Mankar is right about the cosmos, but his methods are why he's evil and must be stopped. Everyone else: *multiple decades of study, research and desperate attempts to prove it*
I’m guessing they made the boss fight with a Bosmer Mankar Camoran model and realized how silly it would look to fight a wizard the size of Danny DeVito.
I think Mankar being an Altmer has less to do with his actual lineage, and more to do with gameplay. This way he can be tall (and more imposing), and he does have a darker complexion that bosmer typically have
Thanks for watching the video! Please let me know what I got right, what I got wrong, and any of your opinions on the points made. Links in the description for those who want to view the Commentaries themselves. Likes (or dislikes), shares, comments, and subscriptions would all help me out a ton.
My Twitch: www.twitch.tv/emerdareloth40
Discord Server: discord.gg/v8JJ8tqr.
Thanks,
-Dareloth
6:17
Bro, why do you bother with Elevenlabs voiceovers when you can read like this?
If you want to use AI so that it sounds like the original actors, I'd recommend using an option that "covers" your readings with their voice profiles.
How to translate Daedra and Aedra easily: did they assist in the creation of Mundus? Yea or nay? Yeadra yes, Naydra nope because Daedra didn't. 😂
He just entered "showracemenu" in the command consol
He changed his race by altering his soul with mehrunes razor.
That implies he achieved Chim, in which case, he wasn't very good at being a god.
lol
@@owenrobson5617 CHIM isn't the console. It's a philosophical concept heavily inspired by Kirkbride's research on Buddhism and Theosophy (it's almost exactly moksha/nibana/nirvana, contrasted with damma/dharma, the rules or "wheel," Aurbis in the language of Elder Scrolls, to which ordinary mortals are bound; one of the esoteric secrets of Buddhism is that it preaches adherence to the dharma but also strife against samsara, the dharmic cycle of rebirth, and kamma/karma, the volitional change of cause and effect, to achieve nirvana) that sort of vaguely and superficially resembles a player using the console, because like using the console it allows one to transcend rules of the universe to which others are chained.
That one blog about CHIM being the pause menu and command console and creation set did so much damage to Elder Scrolls lore discussion.
@@vitriolicAmaranth Im pretty sure most people know that its a meme to compare CHIM and the console.
It's kinda hard to appreciate Mankar from what little screentime he got, but dude surely is an achiever. His "paradise" and the fact that he replicated daedra's reincarnation in Oblivion after their death on Nirn is very impressive.
He's a very interesting character. Oblivion does not represent him very well.
I went to Gaiar Alata and all I got was this lousy eternity of suffering and pain.
Not eternity, just long enough to steel you for rulership 😈
The tortures in Camoran's paradise were meant to make the cultists spirits the same as daedras who fear no death or torment like mortals. It was no punishment but part of the process to refine them into true immortals who care nothing for what happens to their body since it will be reborn, just like the daedra. It seems in the game like no one really explained this to the cultists or they just really hate the process which anyone would. Eventually going mad and then reforging their spirit into something that's the goal, something that's been tortured enough might take years.
I have been hearing about this theory for years and I really like it. Also perhaps the fact that this part was omissioned was part of it? Perhaps they had to go through the Agony in fullest, to truly be rid of all mortal weakness, through pain. Maybe if they knew they would be more prepared? Maybe it would muddle the process? Hard to say. But I really like this idea.
@@sindrimyr5351 I'm not sure if it's just a theory. I vaguely remember that there was an in-game source that mentioned something like that.
Interestingly, that's how Hellraiser works.
39:29 if you check mythic dawn commentaries 4 and vivecs sermon 28 (and a couple other sources uesp cites) it says that the magna-ge created mehrunes dagon to put an end to molag bal’s and the dreughs tyrannical rule over lyg. He is “the razor”, imbued with hope to cut down molag bal. Dagon’s whole thing is not just destruction for its own sake, but for revolution, which is why mankar Cameron is working with him specifically to “free” the mundus.
I don't believe we ever get a mention of Molag Bal, specifically in the Commentaries. Rather, he's referred to in the Sermons of Vivec, which, again, are both by MK. We get a reference to a city called Malbioge in the Commentaries, which could be taken to be a city of Molag Bal's (similar naming structure?).
Definitely makes sense though. Mehrunes Dagon has many spheres, not just destruction. Would've been a good thing for me to bring up, nonetheless. Thanks for the comment!
Consider that Lyg isn't a real place, but more like a stain on the backside of the map of tamriel.
I think an interesting twist for a future TES game would be the Thalmor dominating Tamriel and Mehrunes Dagon becoming a patron of the player who assists in overthrowing them.
@@Raycloud now THAT would be an awesome twist and a nice change of pace.
@@hypermaeonyx4969Yeah, like an opposite of Oblivions storyline. Too bad Bethesda recently stated they don't have a story for ES6 yet...
Truly fascinating, if only mehrunes Dagon was ever portayed as having a shade of nuance in the game.
Now THIS scratches my tism real good
What I’ve never bought into is the idea that Mehrunes Dagon, as Prince of Change and Revolution, would install a world order wherein the faithful are “set above all mortals” forever.
It seems antithetical to his sphere and nature to desire that outcome.
i kinda imagine it wouldn't be permanent, and he'd back the underdogs when they'd inevitably rebel, maybe keeping it in a revolutionary loop
but also: dagon thinks that nirn belongs to him, right? he may just be so pissed about not getting nirn that he's acted outside of his normal nature consistency whenever it's in the picture
Honestly I've always seen the idea Dagon cultists KEEP ON GETTING that they're gonna be the ones in power when everything is said and done to be something they just sorta... insert. Putting words in Dagon's mouth. Like he (dagon) is like "We will topple the tyrants and lay low the current order" and the cultists are like "To set us above all mortals then, right??" "..." "To set us above all mortals then... right????"
Whereas in reality any reality where Dagon wins would just be a constant turning cycle of rebellions with no true rulers.
@@Spacecoreinspace I think you're right on your first assertion. For the need for change and for revolution to have a purpose there must be unfairness and order that can be challenged. After all, Dagon is specifically change and revolution through the destruction of the old to give way to the new. It wouldn't even go against his nature to use order and promises of eternal rule as means to manipulate mortals into enacting his plans. Wouldn't be the first time, nor the last.
It's also a reoccurring theme with Daedric Princes that they often act in ways to perpetuate themselves. They seem to be less ruled by their nature and sphere and more beings that enact their sphere as by some unknown ordain by the Magna-Ge or whatever, as they all do things from time to time to enable the need for their realm to exist.
You Absolute Legend. I can't believe how detailed and original this lore dive is. You know you're deep in the rabbit hole when you get redirected to adult entertainment sites. Your voice acting is brilliant, btw I want that Mythic Dawn mug!
I'll have to start up a shop haha.
Remember, Dagon is not just the prince of destruction, he is change and revolution. This is why Dagon targets the status quo, why his artifact, mehrunes razor, changes reality itself. I think that the paradise is as it is because Dagon is not attempting to create a new status quo, he is seeking to destroy the current one. The Dawn members don’t understand this and thus are tortured, they sought power from being downtrodden. Dagon also allows you as the player to enter paradise and kill Camaron, thus destroying the potential new status quo created by the Dawn.
Yes. I've heard the take before that Dagon did kind of win in the end anyway because the Oblivion Crisis and the disintegration of the Dragonborn Emperors completely destabilized Tamriel (lots of change and revolution).
@@theemerdareloth Dagoth, the prince of shaking things up, honestly one of the most interesting deadra with a lot of potential even if sadly he is a lot of time portrayed as just, the big red devil dude of destruction which is so sad. For me it's so fascinating a deadra prince that a lot of people in marge of society would prey to because there unsatisfied with the status quo but on the long term will never truly satisfy anyone as what's interesting him is not the cause or the after of a revolution, but revolution itself. In a sense I see him as a god of time in a sense (I know there's already a god of time in akatosh) because he is a force that will never allow the world to stagnate, a force that seek change, not for the sake of a better tomorrow but for the sake of change itself. Sorry for the long reply that just repeat itself but I really like dagon and i'm really sad that the elder scroll didn't do justice to the deadra prince. Hell perhaps one day the player could seek Merhunes as an ally as he could be a very interesting ally in due time, but one that will never stay an ally.
@@prophetedubaroque5136Bingo! It's why, after learning his lore, Dagon, to me, comes off as the epitome of Chaotic Neutral.
He's very fickle, yet when it comes to bringing change to the world, Dagon doesn't really care about what kind of change you bring to the world with his power, so long as you can pique his interest with your plans and have the means to do so. Especially when you compare Dagon to some truly evil Daedra like Molag Bal
@@KitsuneYojimbo Perhaps one day we will see more of its potential... One day...
@@prophetedubaroque5136 you are exactly right, and i think that him being the prince of change is why Mankar ultimately failed. Camaron wanted to bring the stagnant merethic era back by converting tamriel into the lorkhan realm again, and by reverting time. Dagon is dependent on time to cause change, and so he allows the player to enter paradise and overthrow Mankar.
Nymics are fucking cool as an aspect of TES lore and I'd love someone to go in depth on them. From swordsmen who learn the true names of their blades to wizards trying to understand an aspect of magic so hard they learn a nymic
I have only played "TES V: Skyrim", but I dig the entire series' deep lore. I, too, would enjoy a video that analyzed Tamriel's hidden underworking.
The vanished dwarves harnessed reality's tonal architecture. Yokudan refugee bands trained and fought using the Shehai, or song-sword. Nordic heroes toppled armies with the power of their voices.
It's really fascinating stuff!
musical tones are implied to play a fundamental role in the world's makeup
Honestly, that's a sick mug. Well played.
Thank you! I was very proud of how it turned out.
I got so fuckin' giddy seeing this vid; the Mythic Dawn could've had such potential, and I love delving into it like this.
They're so interesting and under-represented in Oblivion. Hope you enjoyed it!
For the idea that the aedra are “weak” or “silent”, i always imagined it was because they’re spread out across mundus as the elements and natural laws and as such can’t spare the resources to speak directly
The daedra, however, aren’t bound that way and as such can spare the attention/resources to appear directly
You do a pretty good impression of Terrence Stamp's accent and cadence for Camoran
Thank you
After not seeing a credit for Terrance or a sound-alike, I had to check for a comment like this. Well done indeed.
I REALLY want to believe the razor theory is correct, and the fact that mehrunes razor was potentially able to essentially 'slice' someone's identity into pieces, allowing them to make a new one, is one of those obscure and infinitely complex things that makes me absolutely LOVE TES lore. Those esoteric and vague things like CHIM, mantling, the various realms, and so on; they are all things i could listen to lore about for hours and hours
It brought me immense joy to see you show an excerpt of the page I wrote on Adjacent Places, many thanks and an excellent video!
Thanks for being a part of the community!
Ok, I'll join if I get the sick bound armor.
Not being able to acquire that armor in-game is criminal.
This quenched my thirst for a deep delve into the Mythic Dawn! Thank you! Oblivion was my first ES game and Mankar Camoran was just so enigmatic I truly wanted to know a more about the lore behind the cult!
Damn, the algorithm finally did right by me with recommending this video. Amazingly done man, definitely gonna sub and watch more of your stuff! Nothing better than an incredibly researched Elder Scrolls deep dive like this; keep it up. I feel like this channel is about to blowup!
"What is Lyg?"
"LYGMA BALLS GOTCHA"
Everyone : Oh no ! The dragonfire is dying !
Scalibois : Oh no ! We can't colonise hell fast enough !
The way it sounds when stated bluntly is badass but in the context of saxhleel lore it just kind of makes sense.
Argonians are wild beasts that were warped into sapience by the Hist, meaning they mirror the Hist's attitudes, and they are strongest near the Hist, which can change their bodies to suit the situation. The Hist are a colony organism with a hive-mind, appearing to be trees, that have colonies all over Oblivion and originally came from Sithis or the void of Oblivion itself; Collectively, they sound a lot like an extra Daedric Prince who (like Sheogorath and Mehrunes, who are odd even by Daedric standards by their very natures) transcends a lot of the rules that bind other Princes.
This is reinforced by the fact that while every other race "changes places" with their enantiomorphs along with their gods who do the same at the end of each kalpa (nords swapping with altmer, Mara with Nocturnal, etc), the Hist and Redguards are unique in that they each have ways of hiding outside of the world during Alduin's/Satakal's eating, allowing them to return with cultural continuity- Thus the only truly and consistently Anuic race is Redguard, and the only truly and consistently Padomaic race (or deity) is Hist, and by extension their followers, the Saxhleel (called Argonians in the current kalpa, after the name of the place where they live in the greatest numbers).
With all of that in mind, the Argonians invading the Deadlands is like the Dark Seducers invading Mania or something- Not exactly normal, but not exactly surprising or impressive either. It's just conquest by one Daedric faction against another.
Excellent videos, I think the academic approach of looking through a historical lens has been quite refreshing in lore/theory videos. The way you lay your claims and evidence have been awesome.
Good to hear someone makes use of UESP and not the mess that is the fandom wiki that google loves trying to push at people
The Dareloth Commentaries of the Mythic Dawn
I though about naming this video: "Dareloth's Commentaries on the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes," but it doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well haha.
Low key one of the best TES lore videos I've seen! Deep cuts and no superfluous fluff.
This is one of the best Oblivion lore videos I've watched! I know I'm late to the party but I just wanted to say what a fantastic job you did here. There's so much interesting stuff beneath Oblivion's jank.
Thank you sm for finding and compiling all of this juicy lore into an awesome video- I’ve always been fascinated by the Mythic Dawn and Camoran, and this definitely tickled the tism 🔥
Quality video! Solid take on Mankar Camoran. Shame he didn't get more screen time in TES IV. In my opinion, he's the best villain in TES series because of the quality writing and charismatic voice acting, particularly his Gaiar Alata speech. Opportunity was wasted, however, because it could have been so much better.
A theory I've had about Mankar and his bosmeri ancestry: he was able to discover and alter his protonymic because of his bosmeri heritage. What are the bosmer famous for? Shapeshifting! Using Mehrunes Razor to manipulate the usually uncontrollable shifting that bosmer do via the Wild Hunt.
Thank you gor making this, sleeper. And thank you for making the connection between Mankar Camoran and Michael Kirkbride... we were all thinking it. May his teaching endure forever. Awesome stuff.
I wish you would delve into other Daedra more... or perhaps, daedric lore. I would also love who drew more lines of connection between Elder Scrolls and it's silent source material, DnD. Nobody ever does that, but I feel like the some of the obvious inspiration would be interesting to discuss. I mean, Elder Scrolls was created by three devs who worked for Bethesda while playing DnD together.
this is a great analysis, it's really refreshing to see some new and well-substantiated information and opinion in this space
by the way, i think camoran is trying to appear as an ayleid or aldmer rather than an altmer. it would be consistent with his desire to go back to an older state of mundus and his appreciation of ancient elven architecture
wth you're only a small channel? this is amazing stuff!
Thank you! The best way to get the word out and grow the channel is by commenting, sharing, subbing, or liking, so much appreciated!
I think he WAS onto something, Dagon clearly has more going on than we originally thought, far from right about everything but changing to an altmer and wearing the amulet of kings, the tools he discovered certainly worked.
I’ve never believed all Daedra are evil, pretty Dunmerish on that, but Dagon was NOT in my list of positive Daedra.
I agree! I like the view of Daedric Princes not all being evil. Things aren't as interesting in a black and white world.
Khajiit also don't view Daedric Princes as categorically evil, neither do Argonians (they have their own thing going on with the Hist, and Sithis who is neither Daedra nor Aedra). Really this whole notion of good Aedra vs bad Daedra seems like something imposed by the Empire on other cultures with much more nuanced views.
Whether Lorkhan was the betrayer or bettayed is usually the key distinction between Anuic and Padomiac religios in elder scrolls. We hear the Anuic one more because the Aldmer had the oldest written records on the subject. I think the 'skin of gold line' refers to the orignal tales of these Aldmer, as they would have the first people to claim and write down that Lorkhan was a betrayer.
Also, the Scarab is simply used in numerous elder scrolls sources to refer to Lorkhan.
These videos are great!! I can't believe you don't have more views man you really dig deep for the details hope more people find them
Incredible quality in presentation and research. Good GOD I wish the games actually featured or at least mentioned half this stuff in some way.
Love the lore deep dives. I’ll keep watching them if you keep making them.
I'll keep making them if you'll keep watching them, then!
The parallel between the execution of Lorkhan and the murder of Nerevar is striking.
Very glad I've found your channel. I really like the way you've done this video, hopefully a lot more to come 🙏
Your impression of mankar is actually really good.
Thank you!
This is only a thought, I have no evidence to back this up, and there may in fact be information in the lore that contradicts this. What if Mehrunes Dagon was in fact created by the Magne ge in lyg, but they created him using either the corpse or Nymic of Lorkhan? This would explain why they are both the Daedric Prince of change, and why Mankar is associated specifically with Dagon and not any of the other Princes. It would also make Dagon, quite literally, heartless. This could explain his somewhat brutal nature, despite the intentions of the Magne ge when creating him to reclaim mundus.
I was just wondering that myself. What if Mehrunes Dagon is the centerless living/re-constituted corpse of Lorkhan/Shor?
Thanks for this in-depth analysis of his twisted world. Very well made video.. i hope you've got a lot more coming :)
This video has converted me to the Mythic Dawn. TAMRIEL AE DAEDROTH!
Mythic Dawn is the Left Hand Path for Tamriel.
In Egyptian mythos, a scarab is a powerful symbol among all the people, an icon of wealth and fortune to the middle class and a seal of power and authority when used by the high class. It was commonly associated with Khepri, a scarab himself who arose to divinity from a ball of dung and represented the rising sun (not necessarily the full sun itself) and the act of creation itself in emulation of the universal creator.
Tamriel ae Daedroth, Tamriel is Daedra(/oth), Scarab ae Aurbex, likely Scarab is Universe (aurbis). In continuing with the sermon, Mankar reasons that aedra lack the divine spark, authority, or royalty in itself to rule the universe as a godhead, they are not truly gods under this definition. Kirkbride likely had CHIM, the syllable of royalty, on his mind in this context, the act of mortals attaining divinity through a meta understanding of the dream they inhabit, using the trials of Lorkhan and the mundus as a stepping stone to find the godhead, which Vivec was accredited with accomplishing, and Tiber Septim/Talos likely came to understand as well.
Just discovered you - incredible content, please keep making tes lore vids.
You found me at a good time. I'll be releasing a new video either tomorrow or Saturday.
damn you really went down the rabbit hole for this one! i personally love the view of dagon as a prince of hope and find it a really interesting perspective. great coverage of the commentaries and camoran here dude
One of Dagon's spheres of influence is "Change". Change can be both good and bad. Dagon would be a very neutral daedra if his other spheres werent so warlike.
This is an excellent video and so detailed and well constructed. I’m thankful to have gotten this in my feed.
I’ve been recently replaying Oblivion and this is just what I’ve been looking for. It goes without saying, subscribed.
I think "oath breakers" refer to Magnus and the Magna Ge, who fled Mundus soon after it's creation without having completed their "oath" to it's creation like the Aedra and Ehlonfey
Mankar being Bosmeri just blew my mind..
I think that is particularly awesome 💯
I used to listen to his ramblings of Mankhar Cameron. He definitely had a point. Especially the point that Nirn is just another Deadric plaon much like oblivion.
Man, I remember reading the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes playing Oblivion years ago. Always stuck with me, something about the Mythic Dawn- Mankar Camoran was definitely onto something.
Well, I'm convinced. Gonna join the Mythic Dawn!
I heard they have (eternal) life insurance.
@@theemerdareloth for real though, ya got me wanting to boot up Oblivion again. Awesome video ya got yourself a subscriber
Really liked the format and telling of the lore. Sure, you will come to it at some point, but a topic suggestion The Dark Brotherhood 😇🙏🙏
Given the torcher going on in Mehrunes Dagon's realm, I would feel safe to say he isn't a good guy. It is basically Hades trying to get control.
I always appreciate when you bring in Elder Scrolls Legends content to help your theory's. I feel it gives you a unique perspective and evidence. I don't see Lore videos from more established channels referencing Legends very often.
This video was so good I just want to add a reminder your still mortal. At 42:42 there's two small typos..
now that was a treat ty Sir very entertaining
Just found this channel, this is a wonderful video, please do more of these on TES topics :)
Thank you! I have a playlist with a few other lore videos you may enjoy!
@@theemerdareloth Awesome I'll check them out!
Thank you. I've pondered on Mankar's character for decades, he just didn't make any sense. It's great to have some concrete answers now.
love this kind of lore videos keep it up
More to come!
Amazing Video! Loved the Charakter back in my teens! Thanks for the Lore! Keep up the work! I'd love to see a break down of the Gods and their followings! :D
One thing I would like to point out that a lot of people I feel unfortunately fail to point out. Is that Mehrunes Dagon isnt just a Daedric Prince of Destruction and Change. But also Revolution. Revolution is an important and interesting concept to attach to a Daedric Prince because in most understandings of revolution, revolution is a purely human phenomenon and not the sort of thing one can chalk up to forces of nature like most of what is attributed to various Daedric Princes, and I think it really helps characterize Mehrunes Dagon in a way that the games have simply failed to.
Its part of the reason that I think PatricianTV, love him or hate him, was onto something with his Oblivion Video and his Mehrunes Dagon theory that actually, Mehrunes Dagon got what he wanted in the end. He got a massive change, a revolution. Just because it wasn't Mankar Camorans version of a revolution, doesn't mean it wasn't a revolution.
I agree, but I wouldn't go around saying that that theory is "Patrician's Theory" since it's been around for quite some time.
I'm glad these video exist 😵💫 I'm not sure if I could do this research myself
I wish Mankar could have been a character which reoccurred and showed up outside of the two times we see him. It would have been better for players to interact with him a few more times and to listen to his words more. I think lots of players don’t even speak to him in Paradise and just attack anyway.
very well put together, enjoyed
Thank you!
Your video needs to be included in all copies of Oblivion
I’d like to see Celia Camoran make an appearance in TES VI
She’s mentioned in the Thieves Guild quest about receiving an Elder Scroll
The Camoran family definitely needs to be explored more.
Camoran is hitting us with that lightskin stare in the image you used.
I forgot Camoran stated Dagon would "remake" the world. The amount of times some star-aligned halfwit saved the world from its apparently natural kalpar (calpar? Calpa? Kal...) recycle is getting kind of outrageous. I'm an Alduin apologist at this point. Jagged brother was just the final boss of nature when Sean Bean stopped Dagon from doing Dagon shit. When do we just, you know, let the world end? It's the only way to "bring the Dwemer back" probably, too. Is the Dreamer in a coma at this point because of how long this current cycle is? Where's the philosophical "can we/should we" regarding the world-ending threat of the week? TES6 is just gonna be TES4 and 5 in a new location with no new commentary on anything, isn't it? Honestly, at this point, I'm sick of saving the world. Where's my RPG choice to just let it happen?
Maybe I wanted to join Mankar Camoran... like who doesn't want to follow the guy who basically made his own Daedric realm? That's crazy.
You know what? You've convinced me. I'm joining a cult.
*BASED*
What a great video. I would count myself among those who find his arguments at least a bit persuasive. Much of what he says seems to be supported, at least in theory, by the structure of the creation myths.
THANK YOU!!! For, like, almost 20 years, I wondered WTF "protonymic" referred to.
Peak mythic dawn lore
Thanks for making this.
20:35 Or it's a lie. Being contemporary with Tiber Septim is a propaganda tactic to make them seem more important by association.
@@Zegathra this is also a fairly common thing to do throughout history for your ancestors
Good stuff man, keep it up!
Camoran being depicted as an Altmer is probably supposed to represent something similar to the Chimer in-engine. Notably in 'The Changed Ones', the Chimer/Velothi were changed by Boethiah, and of course the Dunmer later took their gray-skinned form from the influence of Azurah.
Basically, if Mer are in some sense descendants of Aedra, they can also similarly become the "children" of Daedra. Maybe this is a Merish analogue to Mantling? Consider that Boethiah and Azurah changed the culture and thus naming convention of their Chimer and Dunmer, Dagon changes the nymices of his Mythic Dawn cult, and Talos was Tiber Septim was Hjalti Early-Beard. Very telling, if Camoran was an 'equal' to Dagon and the player is mantling Sheogorath/Jyggalag...
As for the Skin of Gold, the conflict happening in the Morrowind backstory and MQ is a shadowplay of the Monomyth in which the Tribunal are the Aedra, Dagoth Ur is Dagon and the Nerevarine is Lorkhan. The Chimer have skin of gold because they are emulating the Aedra, who have true Skin of Gold (sunlight or magicka).
This shadowplay is interesting because it suggests a relationship between Lorkhan and Dagon similar to that between Nerevar and Dagoth Ur. Given that Sheogorath/Jyggalag rules over two demi-planes, the idea of Lorkhan/Dagon ruling simultaneously over Lyg/Tamriel is interesting.
Tamriel with its towers is to the rest of Nirn as Vvardenfell with its tower is to the rest of Morrowind.
Great video this is really captivating work 👏
This video was so well made.
You know the thing about cultists, they get told so many lies that their "truths" are rarely fact. You don't need to make excuses for Bethesda if you consider that in the real world flat earthers exist. Sometimes people are just wrong.
Iirc, Dagon was created to overthrow the Dreugh, both as a prince of hope and revolution. That doesn't make him "Good" though, as hope for something Different doesn't always lead to things becoming better.
Yeah, it's definitely very ambiguous.
Great video.
Great video, very interesting topic!
Thank you!
Very good video!
Mythic Dawn looks like the name of a typical cult of Tzeentch in Warhammer 40k.
Is it possible Mantra Camoran was a shezzarine / avatar of Lorkhan? It may explain his longevity and perhaps why he can wear the amulet of kings as Tiber Septim (who had dragons blood) mantled Lorkhan to become Talos. Also it may explain why his followers see him as an equal with mehrunes Dagon and how he changed his appearance using the razor (Lorkhan is affiliated with change after all).
Of course he would hate the Aedra for betraying Lorkhan as they destroyed him, and his respect for the Daedra as owners of planes, as he may be with Mundus / Tamriel.
Can't wait for skyblivion!
The mention of the “Waters of Oblivion” is a pretty good indicator that they are related to Mundus. A lot of Kirkbride’s terminology and concepts are the same as real life ones or at least reference them, The Waters in our world refers to this conditioned realm we exist in but also tends to include any other realm that has a Dependant existence. A common theme in mystic characters who attain great divinity is that they overcome The Waters (Jesus walks upon water, Mithras crosses the river, the Buddha tells you to grasp the other shore [additional note I’m fairly sure the Shore allegory is used multiple times in TES]), their art is considered Royal (Chim) which they use to become more than all the Gods before them. But that extra part is a bit off track, a discussion for elsewhere.
In watching this I've had a realization that Mankar Camoran's views have exactly the right amount of grounding to be extremely compelling. If he were talking complete nonsense it'd be worthless, and if there were any MORE evidence in his favor it'd both be disappointingly orthodox as an Edgy Dark Fantasy Religion, and in that classic Elder Scrolls range of 'cool idea that they never actually depict'.
But in this exact range, it's a concept that's interesting enough to have potential legs and provide an interesting interpretation for the world, while never actually begging for a more direct depiction or confirmation.
I just want to let you know I really enjoyed this video - really well done, and really piqued my interest. I wonder how Camoran's twin children fit into how he was remade, especially since I believe they have some interesting lore of their own?
Thank you! Mankar refers to ravens throughout the Xarxes, which is his son's name, and he mentions his daughter, Ruma, whose name is something in Ayleid, I believe.
@@theemerdareloth Master Dareloth! How lovely!
Honestly - this entire passage from the Commetaries about Ruma is chilling and compelling at the same time:
`Falter now and become one with the wayside orphans that feed me. Follow and I shall adore you from inside. My first daughter ran from the Dagonite road. Her name was Ruma and I ate her with no bread, and made another, which learned, and I loved that one and blackbirds formed her twin behind all time.`
I love how this is written - horrifying, fascinating - and I can take quite a few different meanings about what Mankar is actually saying here. Did he remaking her, or is he speaking about creating Raven to love instead?
@fitz7231 Yeah, it's definitely open to interpretation. It's even possible he recreated Ruma, this time with a nymic, and with her came Raven. We also do not know anything about their mother, so are they like artificial creations, Daedra, etc...?
I'm eating this video. great work!
I would like to add some more context to the nymics with the minutes from the Lusty Argonion Historical Society
The Debate
The evening’s debate was on whether a Daedra’s protonymic changes or remains constant.
Gondyr argues that the protonymic is an “essential” part of a Daedra and that changing the protonymic would change the Daedra. Since the Daedric “Princes” have been unchanged (with the possible exception of Malacath, of course) for many years, this suggests (to Gondyr’s fevered imagination) that the protonymic is “as unchanging and eternal as the Admantium Tower.”
Ulrorn shows unexpected insight when he says, “Its name may change, but if you banish a Scamp, it’s still a Scamp.” After some slurred explanations, he is apparently asserting that the changes necessary to alter a Daedra’s protonymic are smaller than the changes necessary to alter a Daedra’s nature. Or, in other words, Azura would still be the morning and evening star, even if her protonymic changed. Boethiah would still govern insights, even with another protonymic. Etc. Gondyr tries to argue against Ulrorn (which is surely not a difficult task), but he is distracted by a passing serving girl and loses the floor.
Shahavra tells a fanciful tale about an unfortunate Dagi who lazily summoned the same daedroth twice and painfully learned that the protonymic only works once. This would favor the idea that the protonymic does change, if the Khajiit were not all liars.
Dhavin points out that various Daedra have had their protonymics discovered in the past. He argues that since no Daedra “Princes” are currently enslaved, this suggests that the protonymic is, as he puts it, a “one trick pony.”
Ulrorn moves that Dhavin spends too much time with horses. Ulrorn withdraws this motion under threat of Dhavin’s long memory and fertile imagination.
Julius idly asks if Aedra have protonymics. Varinturco boldly asserts that of course Aedra have protonymics (and, in fact, the fool argues that all living things do!), but that the protonymics of Aedra, men, and mer cannot be “spelled, pronounced, or ennumerated” in the Mundus. Not only would it be ineffective, it would be literally unknowable. Varinturco claims to be quoting a book by some crazy Altmer who lives in a giant clock, as if that gives his argument any additional weight. Varinturco rambles on about a “neonymic” (?) that is some kind of second protonymic, but he is, fortunately, interrupted.
Gondyr moves that Varinturco has had too much to drink. The motion is seconded by your humble scribe, but, alas, no vote is taken.
Arielle wonders if the act of banishment (due to the alleged dissolution of spirit) changes the nature of a Daedra enough to change their protonymic.
Quiet, beautiful Orphala (if only she were not an Orethi!) tells a poignant, if all too brief, story about a Daedra she met in Tear who feared banishment because he feared losing his love for another Daedra. Apparently, he believed that if he were banished, he would no longer be in love, for in the process of re-forming himself, he might forget his love or lose it. Orphala was not sure of the precise meaning of his words, but this suggests that the process is traumatic enough to change a Daedra’s protonymic, if not their basic nature.
In light of this story, Gondyr and Dhavin enthusiastically agree with Arielle’s theory. Even I, your humble scribe, cannot recall a counterexample for this idea, though I doubt anything regarding the Daedra it is so simple.
Dhavin moves that the LAHS vote on the idea that banishment itself changes the protonymic. The motion passes unanimously, in spite of Varinturco’s repeated attempts to take the floor and discuss his “neonymic” notion.
Your humble scribe moves that this unprecedented agreement is a cause for celebration. This motion also passes unanimously.
Drinking ensues.
Just to spoil the rare consensus, Artonia recalls a story about the mysterious disappearance of the Battlespire several years ago. She heard a rumor from one of her aunts who was a Battlemage at the time (see what passes for scholarship these days?) that Mehrunes Dagon invaded the Battlespire(!), and he could resist his protonymic because he changed it or added some kind of surname (Varinturco begins shouting about that neonymic nonsense here again, but he is rightfully ignored). To prevent Mehrunes Dagon from reaching the rest of Tamriel, the Battlemages broke the moorings, thus the “disappearance” (if the “Battlespire” was ever more than legend, anyway). This is no less plausible than any other story I’ve heard over the years, but how anyone could know the truth of it when there were no survivors (or public evidence of any kind) is beyond my understanding. In conclusion, Artonia asks whether forward-thinking Daedra could change their protonymic or add some kind of surname to protect themselves from mortals who have learned their true, invocational name.
Varinturco finally gets his chance to take the floor, adding his febrile imaginings to Artonia’s rumor. He claims to have met a survivor of the Battlespire (a man named, apparently, Chimer-and if that does not discredit this fanciful tale, I don’t know what will). This “Chimer” (who is not a mer!) claims that Mehrunes Dagon did, indeed, attack the Battlespire (after cursing him to live forever or some such nonsense), and that he did, indeed, add a surname (or “neonymic” as Varinturco insists we call it) to his protonymic for additional protection. Varinturco goes on and on about the alleged trials of this “Chimer” and some nameless hero (we’ve all heard that one before!), but there’s no point recording it for posterity when the fool is obviously making it all up.
Varinturco ends his rambling by moving that the LAHS summon Mehrunes Dagon, politely ask him his protonymic (and neonymic), banish him, summon him again, and “see if it works.” This practical and entirely harmless motion fails due to laughter preventing a quorum.
This is great. You have a new sub.
Thank you!
I remember reading a piece of lore that states the Altmer believe they are the closest remnants to the Et’Ada that became mortal races and only that race. Maybe that’s why Mankar Cameron appears as a Altmer after using Mehrunes razor to change his Nymic. As they are the closest thing to a mers secret/true name
Maybe I’m super wrong but who cares I’m high af I love elder scrolls
Me as a 12 year old playing Oblivion for the first time: Oh so Mankar is right about the cosmos, but his methods are why he's evil and must be stopped.
Everyone else: *multiple decades of study, research and desperate attempts to prove it*
Great deep dive. Did you used to read for Last Level Press? Great voice.
I do not know what Last Level Press is. But thank you!
I’m guessing they made the boss fight with a Bosmer Mankar Camoran model and realized how silly it would look to fight a wizard the size of Danny DeVito.
Do you plan to offer subtitles in other languages? Because I'm French, but I'm very interested in the content of this video!
I think Mankar being an Altmer has less to do with his actual lineage, and more to do with gameplay. This way he can be tall (and more imposing), and he does have a darker complexion that bosmer typically have
Agreed. I think that’s why too: because had they been honest, Mankar would’ve been one short guy instead of one tall guy.