OPR probably gives a little sales to GW too. I really value the top tier painting experience and strong theme/cohesion that some GW armies have. So even though I'm only interesting in playing OPR, I have three 2,000+ point plus armies that are 90%+ GW plastic (Drukhari, Seraphon, Bonereapers)
Absolutely I've had stuff on ebay on sale for AoS and nothing sells and the other day the Goblin Fanatics box sold and you can bet that box was going to be used by the buyer for The Old World and not AoS. You're probably going to say (not necessarily so) but I kinda got a good hunch about it, I have 5000 points of Old World Orcs & Miniatures and I know which minis are in demand. And yes, I'm not selling my AoS undead army boxes which can be used in The Old World as I want to build a Vampire Counts army.
Buying stuff in the blue boxes shows the investors 15 years ago the guy Jordan Sorcery interviewed was full of crap. Literally said they had to end Fantasy because there was nowhere left to go with it. The only way we're getting the other half of the armies is if there's financial motivation enough to allow Specialty Design Studios the power to step on Games Workshop proper egos. They are tracking which models people are buying and giving SDS resources based on it. We were already told in a community update sales have exceeded expectations and as a result "the scope of the project has increased."
If anything it's probably the opposite, I think some people are buying AOS kits for use in old world, most notably the legends factions (Lizardmen, Skaven, Ogres, etc), of the core factions it probably affects Chaos Warriors the most, given they are pretty much the same faction in aos with newer kits. I personally have bought some Myrmidesh Painbringers (or however the hell you spell it) for use as Slannesh themed chaos chosen in tow. I like the older sculpts, but I imagine newer players are more inclined to the newer aos sculpts and the big selling point of tow kits to them is the value, those battalions are fantastic in a model per money unit sense. I wonder how many of the rumored chaos dwarfs for aos will end up in tow.
This is me. I haven't played any GW game in a decade. Got back into old world because the rules were free with the legacy stuff. But everything ive had to buy has been AoS because those armies aren't supported.
I definitely am buying ogres from aos simply for tow. The kits in aos are so old but they are the ones i had when i was younger so im happy to buy before the rumored refresh
I don't think all those are going to get TOW releases, I remember the announcement that not all previous armies are coming to the new game, particularly because VC were one of the excluded armies from the game, as I used to collect them.
Coming from WHF over to TOW, I care for AoS the same as I did before: are the models released usable for WHF/TOW for me? And quite frankly, the scope got literally a lot broader with the move to bigger bases in TOW. A lot more of the AoS range suddenly can "rank up" properly, and a lot more is usable as characters or even whole units. I still vastly prefer the "oldschool look" from the old WHF ranges, but some modern AoS sculpts work just as well for me. And in some cases I like the new stuff enough to consider doing a whole TOW army with it. And of course none of this matters to GW even a bit: they get sales from me, and that is good enough for them!
In my store 8ed Fantasy was a notable chunk of the AoS sales. One guy was doing Tomb kings from Ossiarch Bonereapers, an other was building a lizzard army with those beatiful new sculpts. So I think if anything, a hidden boost to AoS sales might have gone away. But with ToW growing, there will be still be a lot of folks buying Skaven, lizzards etc.
i would have figured the cannibalism would be the other way around. I've bought soulblight kits to use as vamp counts, I've seen people online buying aos kits to run as lizardmen, warriors of chaos, datk elves, & beasts of chaos. in the few cases of overlap between old world & aos, the old world kits might be a bit cheaper per model, but the aos kits are much better looking.
re the point around 10 mins "may as well be out of stock forever", this was definitely true for me. There was a 40k kit I wanted to buy multiple of, and at the time I entered the hobby it had been out of stock for months, it only came back into stock last week, almost a full year later and I had moved on and just started a different project.
I went to warhammer world on the day Old World was released, it was hilarious buying AoS kits in the shop - every staff member was giving unsolicited advice on how to un-AoS-ify the kits :D
Talking about bad timing in movie production, Big Trouble was set to release in theatres on September 21, 2001. However, one of the plot points (spoiler for a 22 year old movie) is some incredibly inept bad guys smuggling a bomb onto a plane. The movie was finished and advertised, but after 9/11, everything was pulled and the movie was shelved for months. When it was released, it was dumped into theatres with no advertising as the budget had already been spent the previous year. No one knew it had been released, so almost no one saw it. We had been waiting for it specifically, which is why we were able to see it in the theatre, but we were the only group there.
Why do I love this show? Why do I love you guys! Seriously your genuine love of the hobby, down-to-earth personalities, and insight into the behind-the-scenes shop owning are just a breath of fresh air. Keep up the great work, you two.
The sales are not stealing from the company they are just doing an insane process to self segregate their sales with no easy way to track them. I bought tomb guard to use as grave guard. Same era of model but they will honestly think it was a sale for tombkings
TOW reminds me of the first years of 30k - GW realizing their fans were sustaining a niche fandom and so a lone game dev was allowed to cater to them on a shoestring budget. I think the original motivation was just to make sure they had a presence in 2020s WHFB instead of letting fans and other companies keep it going independently. But it sounds like the sales are high enough that GW now maybe sees it as a legit game to invest in, rather than almost just a copyright investment masquerading as a game system. Or, if my prior theory that GW likes to use their specialist games to fund bigger ones, TOW clearly exists to pave the way for a new Mordheim!
My last purchases were - Green Knight for my Brets - Arachnarok for my Forest Goblins - Wight King on Skeletal steed for my Vampire counts - two of these sales would be "credited" to AoS, all of these are for Old World. If GW is paying attention to sales on the "whats on the box" basis then their numbers will be wrong. Hopefully someone up top is smart enough to understand this.
The corporate types will probably be using the "what logo is on the box" to jostle for position and serve their career intrests, not the intrests of hobbyists and GWs profit.
Regardless of the truth behind the insider info that claims the bean counters want each kit to be in it's own bucket to track sales, the fact that they pulled the Beasts of Chaos out of AoS to silo them into OW is a giant feelbad for a lot of people. I understand why people feel like GW cares what game people buy their models for.
To some people tracking sales is more important than making sales. I'd fix that if I was running GW, letting process dominate at the expense of outcome is how you nosedive a business.
I don’t get why you guys find tge idea of a petty split between SDS and GW Main so hard to believe. Horus Heresy and 40K led the way. Forgeworld kits were remived from the rules of 40k and AoS almost entirely. HH minis no longer have 40k supported rules. tOW itself is obviously split on miniature grounds. Only ranges that have been fully refreshed or abandoned by AoS have become core factions. They literally brought back old night goblins and chaos warriors while new kits exist on the shelves. They officially discourage the use of the PDF legacy factions (which are almost all supported in AoS) So what we dont know for sure is why. But there is absolutely no way to deny that GW for some reason does care whether you buy AoS minis and play them in old world. Or HH minis and play them in 40k. They actively discourage it. The thing i also dont see mentioned enough is that SDS is actively undercutting GW main with their price points. Cost per model in tOW is sometimes half of AoS. Anyways.... dont gas light me lol
Could be complete nonsense, but I read a rumour somewhere that those plastic special edition models use a aluminium mold rather than a steel one, would be a fair saving if so.
I think that there is still a bit of bitterness left over for people who played Warhammer Fantasy back in the day towards AoS. They had their favorite setting ripped away for the original 4 pages of rules for AoS that had silly (and I thought fun) beard rules, and were eventually told to rebase their minis for a relatively nonsensical (to them) setting, got their armies moved to Legends and eventually cut from AoS, to now have to rebase their minis back to the new sized squares. I can imagine being annoyed at the last ten years of treatment towards the Old World and the old armies as a setting. The setting of Warhammer Fantasy felt very heavily lived in and things mattered in the setting, the bubble worlds of AoS were such a far cry for that much more grounded setting. AoS and 40k is not for me, but I am happy for people who enjoy the settings and games for both.
@@johnb.2107 I think for me it’s an anxiety that if old world doesn’t do well then they’ll take it away again. I’m sure that’s why old world fans want to defend and support it so heavily online. Plus the weird circumstances around the release. It felt like GW didn’t want to give it 100%
Big GW may not care, but I think the individual teams in GW might. Otherwise why did they make all these new awesome Space Marine Plastics for Horus Heresy and make them legends in 40k? Clear GW doesn't want you to use those models in 40k. So easy to say thats possible for AoS and ToW too.
You will regret your relentless HATE of Underworlds when the new edition becomes your flagship product!!! All your gaming tables will be covered in hex shaped misery!!!
Edit. Weird spelling. As a non AoS player who dusted of his old Wood elves, when I returned to the Old World I bought the previous sylvaneth box (treelord + dryads and a branch wraith). WE is probably gonna get their army list last, so not much ai can do to boost sales. And I honestly only need some Sisters of the Thorn for a complete collection. So two boxes of those and I am probably done, unless new stuff is released. I COULD start a second army. But I play less than once a month , so no big rush there 😅 Altough an Empire or Vampire army WOULD be cool
Why are they so cautious about Old World? Because they don´t have confidence in it´s success. If they had they would have given the community a range of new models instead of 20-year-old stuff.
I also think that the only (real) reason TOW happened was because "BRETTONIAN KNIGHTS, NIB, STARTING BID 100$" -multiple bids up to 200+$. People still WANTED and heavily collected and showed they would Shell the Fuck Out for the old kits. Hell, I've seen plenty of TOW players complaining that they can only buy the "age of sigmar witch elves" or the "age of sigmar chaos chariot". There seems to be some mental point in late whfb that in the brains of the TOW nostalgia heads becomes "AoS" which just means "Thing I Don't Like"
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 did you just copy and paste your standard response to angry fanboys? I ensure you, your shoot missed by a stadium length. Guys you're the ones that in every video talk about Underworlds, no matter what's the actual topic is :)
I wonder how many people play the old world who are new to the hobby. I'm mainly interested in it because I grew up with fantasy and also love the old sculpts despite the goofiness of some of them. That and playing Total War Warhammer
While I Love GW IP once I look at old world as a product is just WFB.For a public traded company whose investors aren't fans or consumers to bring back a product line whose ending helped save your company from bankruptcy is a tough thing to put into quarterly reports and probably being eased into for that. It's way Easier to show investors AoS as a main fantasy line that has been keeping up with the company's growth. Those big entry boxes getting new customers in through ebay cheap might look unhealthy to us as players and store fronts but for GW thats just a new customer down the line who may of not started otherwise whose growth helps their shareholders
It's not 40k, that's why they're so cautious. Wait when they'll bring back Battlefleet Gothic with totally new scale models and 4 factions ready to be played at release, that's where the accountant will say "yeah go for it, sure" ^^
TOW community feels like the Dark Souls 3 version of the old whfb community. "We linked the fire too many times and now we are twisted and rotten and bitter!!" I used to play whfb from 6th thru the end, and the community was always a crapshoot. Were you going to get the fun, chill, go with the flow guy, or were you going to get Mr. Whiner, mr "I dont think that unit belongs in MY warhammer", mr "grumble grumble youve got a list that isnt exactly 50% infantry, 20% archers, 20% monsters and 10% heroes, that shouldnt be allowed, back in my day armies were like armies!" Ive dug out my Vampire Counts a few times to check TOW out and the community around me feels like a game built on a foundation of spite. "Killing Age of Sigmar" is the primary goal, having a sense of entitlement about what your opponent should be allowed to bring is the norm, and there is just so much god damn bitterness and negativity, i get the sense that the opponents i enjoyed playing fantasy with are just...in AoS now.
I have see videos from former GW employee, who said the different games are treated like different businesses within the GW business, simply for accounting to monitor how different product lines are doing. Maybe anonther factor as to why there are now only Kill Team specific unit boxes and no longer a compendium, so they can differentiate between KT and 40K.
Age of Sigmar is far left coded and ToW is right wing coded. You may think that's crazy and it's not a rule, but it is a trend. Go check out the Sigmarxist subreddit. So I imagine you're actually seeing some culture war bleed through here. AoS represents destroying the old for the new and often let's be honest strange, while ToW represents the old and familiar. Same things with HH and 40k, though much less so. It's everywhere in society. Beyond that there is a pretty well known feud between SDS and GW main and it's honestly baffling a company would allow its departments to operate with different balance sheets that directly compete like bitter rivals who are not allowed to share resources.
Interesting analysis. Perhaps there is something to that, perhaps not. Most AoS players that exist today have not been around for the whole 10 years since Fantasy Battles died. For them it wasn't a choice when they entered, they weren't choosing new over old. And I don't think choosing the old and familiar is an inherently 'right' thing. You are describing the effect of nostalgia largely, which effects all of us to some degree, and is very much a part of the human experience. Just my take :)
I will never get the tribalism in the warhammer community. I always thought console wars were ridiculous, but with that, you can actually support the party you are for. With AoS vs ToW or ToW vs 40k or AoS vs 40k etc. you still buy from the same company. Are there really people out there who buy X warhammer product more, so they can spite (in their mind) the other game system? The only winner in that regard is GW.
I think a lot of people are under the impression that the sales of each game will correlate to support of the game from GW. If their game doesnt do well it gets Warhammer Fantasy Battles’d. Which is weird because they still have all those rulebooks and models, they just feel like if things dont constantly get new things, its no longer good/playable? Like new Underworlds is coming out, but i will probably keep playing the old one as i own a lot and its all self contained, but some people are unable to see from that lens, and instead feel their thing dies the moment the company stops supporting it. So i think its all just misguided passion for the thing they like to engage with, more than any malice at people doing other systems and that being “the worst system” or “stealing our systems sales”
@@Mabufu381 Totally agree. And you are spot on about editions/systems. I read it, and hear it, often how some people complain that x edition was better, they wish they could play it... yet they can. All they need to do is ask their friend if, maybe instead of current edition, they can play xth edition. Which is the whole beauty of tabletop games. You can STILL play old editions. I feel it's, like has been stated in this (or another) video that some people seem to have a videogame mindset. New edition = new patch, you can never go back to that edition (while you can)
@@unrealassasination absolutely. it goes both ways too, with people who like the new edition but complaining about erratas/balance patches in the new edition, things arent stable and are always changing - cool, other than official tournaments no one is forcing you or your friends to use that balance update/change, and yknow what never gets balance updates/changes? Every previous edition of the game, where every army has its up to date rulebooks and nothing will ever change and everything is permanently stable etc. Its totally that new phone/videogame culture spilling in and, while admittedly GW as a company need to lean in to that for sales, noone is forcing the average consumer to engage with the new editions if they dont want to - new customers do that.
Only gw would be stupid enough to think that it's a good idea to split you models up over more games so you can better track what game systmes are selling. GW needs to learn that smaller range is better and that you can track what sells for what game. by asking your player base.
I respect GW for killing the Old World setting (though it is definitely my favorite setting). If they hadn't, then the end times wouldn't have meant anything. Warhammer doesn't really do happy endings. On the tabletop side, I'm just glad to see more kits available. I love the old dwarves.
Getting other GW stuff to spite other GW stuff is real smooth brained. Yeah you should get what you want to support what you love and show that support freely. However thinking you are attacking one by supporting the other is silly. It’s the same company. That said of course old world players despise aos for the most part, it murdered their old game in their minds. It’s a silly thought as well but I can say somewhere inside I hate aos for that same reason. I just don’t bring it up. To this day I can’t make myself give aos a chance even if some of the models are very nice.
i build armies for both, my mrs has armies for both, she has the rule books for both, and 40k. everyone i know who plays ToW also plays either AoS and/or 40k. the people who go to bat hard for their game against the other systems are a bit of an odd bunch. not the weirdest bunch in the hobby tho, that spot is reserved for those people who wake up every day with a fire in their belly to go to bat against their game system of choice 😆 "i hate GW, 40k is dying and its the worst game ever made!!!!" says a 35 year old man who has been saying that daily for the last 10 years while hes also spent £2000 on gw 40k models and played 30 games of 40k for every one of those years. theres some strange fish out there.
I was going to buy Old World as my first war game since I love Total War Warhammer but when I saw they didn't have two players starter set and the Skaven Tide box just got out I decided to go AOS. So far I love it,
There are people in the TOW community who are obsessed with AOS but I think they're a much smaller fraction of the base than their volume would suggest. The money GW is making from TOW is mostly coming from people who aren't really engaging with GW as much otherwise (way more than any of the other specialist games) and most of them don't seem to care about AOS all that much beyond sourcing it for minis for TOW. I think there are a small number of extremely online bell-ends who make a lot of noise about this but I, like all reasonable people, just ignore them. They're vocal but most TOW players are just enjoying TOW for what it is and I really don't believe that the anti-AOS mindset is all that common among most of the people who are playing TOW right now. It's a product of horrible social media algorithms driving hate, just like everything else.
I think that it would be better for the old world community overall if it DIDNT become one of the main games. Do we really want that relentless model and rules churn? I want a less volatile more stable game.
Whats more stable than a completed rules set like any of the old editions of whfb? Genuine question - its one of these things where i don’t understand why it needed to be “brought back” - it didnt go anywhere, the rules-set was complete, people had their armies, they just stopped playing it because they decided they want new shiny stuff or that games workshop cancelling further support equated to them not being able to play it anymore, like new editions vs old editions.
I think they need to keep releasing something to maintain the interest over the long term and they have plenty of options there to put legacy armies back in or add new ones, that said I agree it would be best if it didn’t become one of the main games that way GW won’t mess around with it too much
GW absolutely tracks sales by product line... or at least tries to. The upper management doesn’t really understand the hobby and community... so they can’t or don’t understand that people are buying models to use in any games they choose. The upper management is trying to use sales data to determine where to direct resources. Anyone who has worked in a company that produces products understands that there is competition between product lines for resources. You guys can see it in your own store, in a way... In a sense, the different product lines are competing for shelf space based on sales. The product lines that generate sales get more space. So look at it this way, in the AoS vs TOW balance. If you see that people are mainly buying AoS models to use for TOW then that will influence your decisions regarding which books, dice, card packs etc to stock. It will also inform your decisions about which AoS factions to stock. If the faction, say Seraphon, has crossover to TOW you’ll be more likely to keep those models in stock, than Kharadron Overlords.
When the game and setting and multiple armies you lobr and pour hundreds of hours in gets squatted you might be a bit concerned about the games sales ie longevity
It's funny how you mentioned how much dick measuring gets done by TOW players and then half the comments are those, or something similar! 🤣 A couple of points: I think you're right that they don't care what people are buying for what game. They're clearly not paying attention whether people are buying Kairos, Skarbrand etc etc for AoS or for 40K. By far and away most sales for Underworlds and Warcry are AoS players but them bringing out a new version of Underworlds seems to indicate it doesn't really matter from where the cash flows -- small khorne joke. Though them retiring some lines to AoS from Underworlds is certainly interesting -- Skabbik's Plaguepack and the new Stormcast one. Obviously I'm very involved with most of their games except HH and Titanicus but I'm very happy that TOW returned. It's a universe I absolutely love and one I support but it's still very much a boutique game from the specialist side of their manufacturing. Hopefully it gets enough support that it can become like the Horus Heresy and get an actual full starter box like they did over there. Only time will tell though. Appreciate the content though boys, do you think they'll rerelease Space Hulk? It's been exactly 10 years since 4th edition and over 3 years since we've had a boxed game -- Cursed City. I'd love that in whatever form I could get it.
There is definitely tribal antagonism from the WFB fanboys toward AoS players. It is like they expect anyone who plays AoS to apologize for having engaged in an act of sacrilege. But there also seems to be antagonism between Old World players and Kings of War players. I have seen some evidence of MESBG players sniping at Old World players, too. Is there anything like this between the Sci-fi games or is it just a fantasy thing? Why do they do it? Of course it is about identity. Humans are fundamentally social creatures. We have a natural inclination to form groups. We experience this as an urge to belong. This drives people to seek out a group identity. In modern society, historic group identities are displaced by universal values. We live in the age of Pax American, the American Empire, and every empire replaces the particular values of constituent cultures with it's own brand of universalism. One consequence of this is that people don't have their historic identities and must find a modern identity to fulfill their need to belong. One solution to this problem is to embrace Nerd-dom (or Fandom, if you like). Some people become Trekkies, or Starwars fans, or Furries even, and so on. Gamers are another example of a nerd identity. Notice how upset all these groups become if some aspect of their choose belief system is changed. 40K fans are another example and show the tribal group reaction to changes in their belief system, such as the introduction of female Custodes. On a tangent, it is kind of sad that people need to buy an identity in modern Western society. I am thinking this might explain why Gamers, Warhammer fans, etc seem to have this idea that the company they buy their identity from now owes them something. These people are not mere customers in their own minds, but feel they now own the essence of the entertainment IP and have some special bond to it that those who are not true members of their tribe don't have (eg: Real Gamers versus Tourists). Whereas in reality it is a hobby (a form of entertainment) and purchasing such products is purely transactional. Anyway... The WFB fanboys are another Nerd-dom identity group. However they group has been under threat and they become like stateless refugees for some years. This makes for a very defensive and touchy tribal group, fearful of their survival and resentful of the new tribe (ie: AoS players) that took their territory. The other fantasy player groups would also be small and in fear of their tribe's continued existence. Should people be basing their identities on their entertainment/hobbies? Well, people will be people. They need something to belong to, however trivial it might be and however tragic they might look if they take it way too seriously. As irritating as the fanboys will be, it is best to avoid being too judgmental. That will only feed their insecurity and perpetuate the divisiveness in fantasy gaming. I wonder if it would be too insulting to suggest therapy? For me, I like both games. I see AoS as an alternative to 40K (similar game design), and Old World as something that is slower paced and a good retirement home for models that are removed from AoS. Oh, and nostalgia. Old World definitely has a big dose of nostalgia that gives it a lot of appeal. From what I hear, 40K players like Old World for the same reason, as a change of pace, though without the possibly of re-purposing older models.
I started playing 40k back in 2001. I watched the rise and fall of Fantasy battles. I never started playing as the community was toxic, they where re writing rules and arguing all the time. Fantasy guys where looking down on us 40k players. Fantasy, as a game did not work. It had silly rules. You cannot march near to the opposition, but you can charge...your unit is blind outside the 45 view arc. It wasn't good. And it did not sell. Months before they killed it, a single tactical squad f marins kit....one type of unit made more sales then the entire fantasy range! That's why they ended it. That's why they're careful.
It all depends where you are. In Scotland and in NZ fantasy had great community and I don't recall ever having anything more than a discussion about what the right rule to use/interpretation was.
I want the stuff that was teased for Old World... Grand Cathay and Kislev... I want to buy new models, not the stuff I already decided I didn't want 20 years ago.
I'm pretty sure they came out and stated flat out (I think it was a Twitter post?) that there is no plan on making Kislev of Cathay for Old World. People all ASSUMED they would, because of the cooperation with Creative Assembly for Total War Warhammer III, but there was never anything announced that this was the plan.
@DarkZergkill In 2020, GW was posting content teases for The Old World with Kislev about it as a project currently in development and included art assets. They did post in an article on a Total War update (around the release of TOW) that they no longer had current plans to bring Kislev and Grand Cathay to tabletop. Considering three years had passed between Kislev hype and release, I look at their exclusion as a project that just hadn’t developed as they wanted. I expect Kislev to make an appearance eventually since TOW is set just decades before the Siege of Praag.
@@kennethphillips6006 Yeah I just remembered that it was for all intents not going to happen. But you are right, doesn't mean it can't change in the future. And we might just see Kislev (probably the more likely of the two) eventually joining the others in TOW.
I live in a major Canadian city and I go to two local hobby shops. TOW isn’t very popular when compared to AOS especially after spearhead released. Most people in my hobby shops play the ASOIAF miniature game if they want the rank and flank gameplay. The rules are much better than TOW,it’s cheaper, and the models look really good.
asoiaf looks like a$$ with those goofy round bases on square trays. The models look cheap up close. You cant compare it to a vintage 1995-2000 era whfb army. It's like modern art vs the mona lisa.
@@scatterthewinds3126 what a wild, plebian take you have. The models are cheap (Cost $110 for a starter box which comes with 50 models) thats the whole point. Your point about round bases in a square movement tray is weird and makes me think you have autism.
As for me I’m hoping AoS is ahead of TOW in sales. Keep TOW where it is, don’t start hammering us with rules updates and faqs every other week. Mordheim still has a strong community and people are happy with it. I’ve wanted to get into AoS for a while now but it seems it’s going the same way that 40K rules with the constant changes.
When you buy a product - say an Old World product - and use it for Age of Sigmar, GW's ledger says its an OLD WORLD SALE and they will respond accordingly. The money doesn't go "into the same pot" it's well known now that the departments are in competition with each other. The profit all goes to GW but the INFO is what's important here. If people are buying AoS Skaven to play The Old World (which they mostly are imo) GW think that means AoS is doing well and TOW is not and will respond accordingly (like producing more models for AoS). Granted there is no "proof" other than their behaviour and Nottingham insiders claims (which we have no reason to doubt? Are you going these ex employees fibbers?) but it's pretty obvious at this point. That's why HH models were flipped to LEGEND for 10th edition, so there's clear feedback from sales. If GW really didn't care what models you buy and the only motives they had were profit, then Old World's rules would have been written to allow round bases (which is easy to do) - and they'd be producing duel box sets with both round and circle bases in (as they used to do). AoS was obviously a mistake, but some of the logic - round bases, easier rules etc - were sensible. That being said TOW was also a "mistake" given they've just repeated every single mistake that destroyed WFB in the first place.... ADD: The "studios in competition" phenomena seems to be a recent development. It wasn't so long ago GW encouraged you to buy, say, WFB models to use for 40K conversions
There is enough reason to doubt 'ex employees'. Same thing with Underworlds supposedly being killed off, then, tadaa, new edition, while rumours by 'ex employees' said otherwise.
I find the HH exclusion from 40K as a compelling point here. Perhaps also why Forgeworld has been absorbed too - less noise between FW and GW sales. Not sure about the rest of your post, but I wasn’t there for the end of Fantasy.
@@scepteredisle as an old world player I certainly wouldn’t want it to become a round based skirmish game. Happy for people to play with rounds on a movement tray, but TOW is and always should be a rank and flank game.
The biggest population is people who buy minis with the dream of playing sigmar or old world and never play either. Rules are just marketing they dont care why you buy
TOW is giving sales to AoS. I’ve bought 4 TOW armies from the AoS range - Lizardmen, chaos warriors, goblins, and troll horde.
OPR probably gives a little sales to GW too. I really value the top tier painting experience and strong theme/cohesion that some GW armies have. So even though I'm only interesting in playing OPR, I have three 2,000+ point plus armies that are 90%+ GW plastic (Drukhari, Seraphon, Bonereapers)
Same, my Wolves of the Sea is entirely AoS sculpts. Would never have considered the Darkoath and Legionnaire kits otherwise.
100% me and so many people i know have brought AoS minis to use in old world… so AoS not doing anywhere near as good as they think it is
Absolutely I've had stuff on ebay on sale for AoS and nothing sells and the other day the Goblin Fanatics box sold and you can bet that box was going to be used by the buyer for The Old World and not AoS. You're probably going to say (not necessarily so) but I kinda got a good hunch about it, I have 5000 points of Old World Orcs & Miniatures and I know which minis are in demand. And yes, I'm not selling my AoS undead army boxes which can be used in The Old World as I want to build a Vampire Counts army.
I refuse to buy and support AOS in anyway
Buying stuff in the blue boxes shows the investors 15 years ago the guy Jordan Sorcery interviewed was full of crap. Literally said they had to end Fantasy because there was nowhere left to go with it. The only way we're getting the other half of the armies is if there's financial motivation enough to allow Specialty Design Studios the power to step on Games Workshop proper egos. They are tracking which models people are buying and giving SDS resources based on it. We were already told in a community update sales have exceeded expectations and as a result "the scope of the project has increased."
If anything it's probably the opposite, I think some people are buying AOS kits for use in old world, most notably the legends factions (Lizardmen, Skaven, Ogres, etc), of the core factions it probably affects Chaos Warriors the most, given they are pretty much the same faction in aos with newer kits. I personally have bought some Myrmidesh Painbringers (or however the hell you spell it) for use as Slannesh themed chaos chosen in tow. I like the older sculpts, but I imagine newer players are more inclined to the newer aos sculpts and the big selling point of tow kits to them is the value, those battalions are fantastic in a model per money unit sense. I wonder how many of the rumored chaos dwarfs for aos will end up in tow.
This is me. I haven't played any GW game in a decade. Got back into old world because the rules were free with the legacy stuff. But everything ive had to buy has been AoS because those armies aren't supported.
I'm buying the AOS boxes that have re boxed 8th ed warhammer minis in them
I definitely am buying ogres from aos simply for tow.
The kits in aos are so old but they are the ones i had when i was younger so im happy to buy before the rumored refresh
The funny thing is at the moment, it's easier to build a Lizardmen, Vampire Count or Skaven army for TOW then the yet to be released armies.
I don't think all those are going to get TOW releases, I remember the announcement that not all previous armies are coming to the new game, particularly because VC were one of the excluded armies from the game, as I used to collect them.
@@bassistcz They won't. But if you start a Skaven army now, you'll have an easier time than with say High Elves.
First day off since the Monday before Helene. I work for a power company in Georgia. Good to be watching hobby videos again.
Thanks for your hard work!
As a beastmen player I don't have a choice.. my second round of rebasing.
Coming from WHF over to TOW, I care for AoS the same as I did before: are the models released usable for WHF/TOW for me? And quite frankly, the scope got literally a lot broader with the move to bigger bases in TOW. A lot more of the AoS range suddenly can "rank up" properly, and a lot more is usable as characters or even whole units.
I still vastly prefer the "oldschool look" from the old WHF ranges, but some modern AoS sculpts work just as well for me. And in some cases I like the new stuff enough to consider doing a whole TOW army with it. And of course none of this matters to GW even a bit: they get sales from me, and that is good enough for them!
I will have you all know. All vile forces of darkness will be met with my Britonian Lance!
In my store 8ed Fantasy was a notable chunk of the AoS sales. One guy was doing Tomb kings from Ossiarch Bonereapers, an other was building a lizzard army with those beatiful new sculpts.
So I think if anything, a hidden boost to AoS sales might have gone away. But with ToW growing, there will be still be a lot of folks buying Skaven, lizzards etc.
I also think there is a high chance of the non-Core armies coming back to Old World after they finish the Core Army release waves.
i would have figured the cannibalism would be the other way around. I've bought soulblight kits to use as vamp counts, I've seen people online buying aos kits to run as lizardmen, warriors of chaos, datk elves, & beasts of chaos. in the few cases of overlap between old world & aos, the old world kits might be a bit cheaper per model, but the aos kits are much better looking.
That's what I would have figured.
I’ve bought tons of cities of Sigmar Dark elves for Old world
But the Old world is easier to convert and kitbash. 😅
I only watch for the beeps and alarms. #BeepHammer
I LOVE how that item was £40 when it was sold for Age of Sigmar then LITERALLY THE NEXT DAY it's got a new box and costs £47.50 LOL
You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about, because all those boxes have more models than the AOS kits, so they are mostly cheaper.
I’m here for the solar flares
The special effects budget is getting unwieldly...how do you manage? 🤣
I love the authenticity of this video. It reminds me of classic TH-cam.
re the point around 10 mins "may as well be out of stock forever", this was definitely true for me. There was a 40k kit I wanted to buy multiple of, and at the time I entered the hobby it had been out of stock for months, it only came back into stock last week, almost a full year later and I had moved on and just started a different project.
I went to warhammer world on the day Old World was released, it was hilarious buying AoS kits in the shop - every staff member was giving unsolicited advice on how to un-AoS-ify the kits :D
Talking about bad timing in movie production, Big Trouble was set to release in theatres on September 21, 2001. However, one of the plot points (spoiler for a 22 year old movie) is some incredibly inept bad guys smuggling a bomb onto a plane. The movie was finished and advertised, but after 9/11, everything was pulled and the movie was shelved for months. When it was released, it was dumped into theatres with no advertising as the budget had already been spent the previous year. No one knew it had been released, so almost no one saw it. We had been waiting for it specifically, which is why we were able to see it in the theatre, but we were the only group there.
Why do I love this show? Why do I love you guys! Seriously your genuine love of the hobby, down-to-earth personalities, and insight into the behind-the-scenes shop owning are just a breath of fresh air. Keep up the great work, you two.
The sales are not stealing from the company they are just doing an insane process to self segregate their sales with no easy way to track them. I bought tomb guard to use as grave guard. Same era of model but they will honestly think it was a sale for tombkings
TOW reminds me of the first years of 30k - GW realizing their fans were sustaining a niche fandom and so a lone game dev was allowed to cater to them on a shoestring budget.
I think the original motivation was just to make sure they had a presence in 2020s WHFB instead of letting fans and other companies keep it going independently.
But it sounds like the sales are high enough that GW now maybe sees it as a legit game to invest in, rather than almost just a copyright investment masquerading as a game system.
Or, if my prior theory that GW likes to use their specialist games to fund bigger ones, TOW clearly exists to pave the way for a new Mordheim!
When you say Patreon right in a video I’ll sub to it
If GW doesn't care which kit you buy why aren't they including alternative bases in boxes again? And why did beastmen get the AoS axe?
Because they do care. They wanna track what games does well so they know what to support. But they are going around it in the completly wrong way.
My last purchases were - Green Knight for my Brets - Arachnarok for my Forest Goblins - Wight King on Skeletal steed for my Vampire counts - two of these sales would be "credited" to AoS, all of these are for Old World. If GW is paying attention to sales on the "whats on the box" basis then their numbers will be wrong. Hopefully someone up top is smart enough to understand this.
The corporate types will probably be using the "what logo is on the box" to jostle for position and serve their career intrests, not the intrests of hobbyists and GWs profit.
I think it comes down to Fantasy players being absolutely terrified their game will under perform again and GW will take it out back old yeller again.
Not the dog!! Lol
In Maine, US here, we just lost power as well for like an hour, it’s a windy one today!
Regardless of the truth behind the insider info that claims the bean counters want each kit to be in it's own bucket to track sales, the fact that they pulled the Beasts of Chaos out of AoS to silo them into OW is a giant feelbad for a lot of people. I understand why people feel like GW cares what game people buy their models for.
To some people tracking sales is more important than making sales.
I'd fix that if I was running GW, letting process dominate at the expense of outcome is how you nosedive a business.
I just come here for the trolling of the comments section.
Good life choices
The "Splitening" lmao like an M. Night Shamalan movie title
I refer to this period in GW history as the “Enshittening”
6:30 Thank you for this One!
I don’t get why you guys find tge idea of a petty split between SDS and GW Main so hard to believe.
Horus Heresy and 40K led the way. Forgeworld kits were remived from the rules of 40k and AoS almost entirely. HH minis no longer have 40k supported rules.
tOW itself is obviously split on miniature grounds. Only ranges that have been fully refreshed or abandoned by AoS have become core factions. They literally brought back old night goblins and chaos warriors while new kits exist on the shelves. They officially discourage the use of the PDF legacy factions (which are almost all supported in AoS)
So what we dont know for sure is why. But there is absolutely no way to deny that GW for some reason does care whether you buy AoS minis and play them in old world. Or HH minis and play them in 40k. They actively discourage it.
The thing i also dont see mentioned enough is that SDS is actively undercutting GW main with their price points. Cost per model in tOW is sometimes half of AoS.
Anyways.... dont gas light me lol
Could be complete nonsense, but I read a rumour somewhere that those plastic special edition models use a aluminium mold rather than a steel one, would be a fair saving if so.
I think that there is still a bit of bitterness left over for people who played Warhammer Fantasy back in the day towards AoS.
They had their favorite setting ripped away for the original 4 pages of rules for AoS that had silly (and I thought fun) beard rules, and were eventually told to rebase their minis for a relatively nonsensical (to them) setting, got their armies moved to Legends and eventually cut from AoS, to now have to rebase their minis back to the new sized squares. I can imagine being annoyed at the last ten years of treatment towards the Old World and the old armies as a setting.
The setting of Warhammer Fantasy felt very heavily lived in and things mattered in the setting, the bubble worlds of AoS were such a far cry for that much more grounded setting.
AoS and 40k is not for me, but I am happy for people who enjoy the settings and games for both.
@@johnb.2107 I think for me it’s an anxiety that if old world doesn’t do well then they’ll take it away again. I’m sure that’s why old world fans want to defend and support it so heavily online. Plus the weird circumstances around the release. It felt like GW didn’t want to give it 100%
Big GW may not care, but I think the individual teams in GW might. Otherwise why did they make all these new awesome Space Marine Plastics for Horus Heresy and make them legends in 40k? Clear GW doesn't want you to use those models in 40k. So easy to say thats possible for AoS and ToW too.
Im generally interested in all the gw releases, im pretty eager to see how HH 3.0 goes. Skaventide was a fun one to watch.
You will regret your relentless HATE of Underworlds when the new edition becomes your flagship product!!! All your gaming tables will be covered in hex shaped misery!!!
I'll bow to my new hexagon overlords!
Edit. Weird spelling.
As a non AoS player who dusted of his old Wood elves, when I returned to the Old World I bought the previous sylvaneth box (treelord + dryads and a branch wraith).
WE is probably gonna get their army list last, so not much ai can do to boost sales. And I honestly only need some Sisters of the Thorn for a complete collection. So two boxes of those and I am probably done, unless new stuff is released.
I COULD start a second army. But I play less than once a month , so no big rush there 😅
Altough an Empire or Vampire army WOULD be cool
How many are buying AOS kits to make legacy armies? I know I bought some lizard men to complete my army.
Same here
Why are they so cautious about Old World? Because they don´t have confidence in it´s success. If they had they would have given the community a range of new models instead of 20-year-old stuff.
The hard truth
I also think that the only (real) reason TOW happened was because
"BRETTONIAN KNIGHTS, NIB, STARTING BID 100$" -multiple bids up to 200+$.
People still WANTED and heavily collected and showed they would Shell the Fuck Out for the old kits.
Hell, I've seen plenty of TOW players complaining that they can only buy the "age of sigmar witch elves" or the "age of sigmar chaos chariot". There seems to be some mental point in late whfb that in the brains of the TOW nostalgia heads becomes "AoS" which just means "Thing I Don't Like"
Yes it is and to be fairly honest AOS took TOW models and armies.
OMG, guys, you really have a problem with Underworlds. Did that game did something to you or whatever?
Don't take everything so seriously mate.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 did you just copy and paste your standard response to angry fanboys? I ensure you, your shoot missed by a stadium length. Guys you're the ones that in every video talk about Underworlds, no matter what's the actual topic is :)
I wonder how many people play the old world who are new to the hobby. I'm mainly interested in it because I grew up with fantasy and also love the old sculpts despite the goofiness of some of them. That and playing Total War Warhammer
While I Love GW IP once I look at old world as a product is just WFB.For a public traded company whose investors aren't fans or consumers to bring back a product line whose ending helped save your company from bankruptcy is a tough thing to put into quarterly reports and probably being eased into for that. It's way Easier to show investors AoS as a main fantasy line that has been keeping up with the company's growth. Those big entry boxes getting new customers in through ebay cheap might look unhealthy to us as players and store fronts but for GW thats just a new customer down the line who may of not started otherwise whose growth helps their shareholders
This is the game that baffles me, outside of those coming back for nostalgia. High model count, old sculpts, heavy rules....
People like to tell stories with their minis
It's not 40k, that's why they're so cautious. Wait when they'll bring back Battlefleet Gothic with totally new scale models and 4 factions ready to be played at release, that's where the accountant will say "yeah go for it, sure" ^^
Keep up the great work fellas.
TOW community feels like the Dark Souls 3 version of the old whfb community. "We linked the fire too many times and now we are twisted and rotten and bitter!!"
I used to play whfb from 6th thru the end, and the community was always a crapshoot. Were you going to get the fun, chill, go with the flow guy, or were you going to get Mr. Whiner, mr "I dont think that unit belongs in MY warhammer", mr "grumble grumble youve got a list that isnt exactly 50% infantry, 20% archers, 20% monsters and 10% heroes, that shouldnt be allowed, back in my day armies were like armies!"
Ive dug out my Vampire Counts a few times to check TOW out and the community around me feels like a game built on a foundation of spite. "Killing Age of Sigmar" is the primary goal, having a sense of entitlement about what your opponent should be allowed to bring is the norm, and there is just so much god damn bitterness and negativity, i get the sense that the opponents i enjoyed playing fantasy with are just...in AoS now.
Best intro ever.
I have see videos from former GW employee, who said the different games are treated like different businesses within the GW business, simply for accounting to monitor how different product lines are doing. Maybe anonther factor as to why there are now only Kill Team specific unit boxes and no longer a compendium, so they can differentiate between KT and 40K.
It's a good way to understand and reduce sales & profit
Age of Sigmar is far left coded and ToW is right wing coded. You may think that's crazy and it's not a rule, but it is a trend. Go check out the Sigmarxist subreddit. So I imagine you're actually seeing some culture war bleed through here. AoS represents destroying the old for the new and often let's be honest strange, while ToW represents the old and familiar. Same things with HH and 40k, though much less so. It's everywhere in society. Beyond that there is a pretty well known feud between SDS and GW main and it's honestly baffling a company would allow its departments to operate with different balance sheets that directly compete like bitter rivals who are not allowed to share resources.
Interesting analysis. Perhaps there is something to that, perhaps not.
Most AoS players that exist today have not been around for the whole 10 years since Fantasy Battles died. For them it wasn't a choice when they entered, they weren't choosing new over old.
And I don't think choosing the old and familiar is an inherently 'right' thing. You are describing the effect of nostalgia largely, which effects all of us to some degree, and is very much a part of the human experience.
Just my take :)
Plastics so cheap but high elf warrior sclups 22 years old 😢
Plastic is cheap but the moulds for injection plastics costs tens of thousands to make.
@The_Horned_Rat yes, he was saying the exclusive single minis made for events were plastic so clearly the injection molds mustn't be as expensive now.
Outside internal accounting it makes zero difference if people are buying from one game to play another game.
Here is the thing AoS fans soooo much would go on about fantasy sales relentlessly in the years following Warhammer fantasy battles being cancelled.
I will never get the tribalism in the warhammer community. I always thought console wars were ridiculous, but with that, you can actually support the party you are for. With AoS vs ToW or ToW vs 40k or AoS vs 40k etc. you still buy from the same company. Are there really people out there who buy X warhammer product more, so they can spite (in their mind) the other game system? The only winner in that regard is GW.
I've always found it strange as well. Passion leads people in many directions i suppose.
I think a lot of people are under the impression that the sales of each game will correlate to support of the game from GW. If their game doesnt do well it gets Warhammer Fantasy Battles’d. Which is weird because they still have all those rulebooks and models, they just feel like if things dont constantly get new things, its no longer good/playable? Like new Underworlds is coming out, but i will probably keep playing the old one as i own a lot and its all self contained, but some people are unable to see from that lens, and instead feel their thing dies the moment the company stops supporting it. So i think its all just misguided passion for the thing they like to engage with, more than any malice at people doing other systems and that being “the worst system” or “stealing our systems sales”
@@Mabufu381 Totally agree. And you are spot on about editions/systems. I read it, and hear it, often how some people complain that x edition was better, they wish they could play it... yet they can. All they need to do is ask their friend if, maybe instead of current edition, they can play xth edition. Which is the whole beauty of tabletop games. You can STILL play old editions. I feel it's, like has been stated in this (or another) video that some people seem to have a videogame mindset. New edition = new patch, you can never go back to that edition (while you can)
@@unrealassasination absolutely. it goes both ways too, with people who like the new edition but complaining about erratas/balance patches in the new edition, things arent stable and are always changing - cool, other than official tournaments no one is forcing you or your friends to use that balance update/change, and yknow what never gets balance updates/changes? Every previous edition of the game, where every army has its up to date rulebooks and nothing will ever change and everything is permanently stable etc. Its totally that new phone/videogame culture spilling in and, while admittedly GW as a company need to lean in to that for sales, noone is forcing the average consumer to engage with the new editions if they dont want to - new customers do that.
Everyone has a budget they spend monthly or yearly. Spend money on multiple system would lower the amount spent on one.
Only gw would be stupid enough to think that it's a good idea to split you models up over more games so you can better track what game systmes are selling. GW needs to learn that smaller range is better and that you can track what sells for what game. by asking your player base.
I respect GW for killing the Old World setting (though it is definitely my favorite setting). If they hadn't, then the end times wouldn't have meant anything. Warhammer doesn't really do happy endings. On the tabletop side, I'm just glad to see more kits available. I love the old dwarves.
well then why did they killed off aeronautica?
You guys work really hard to make us believe you're not in front of a green screen!😂
Getting other GW stuff to spite other GW stuff is real smooth brained. Yeah you should get what you want to support what you love and show that support freely. However thinking you are attacking one by supporting the other is silly. It’s the same company.
That said of course old world players despise aos for the most part, it murdered their old game in their minds. It’s a silly thought as well but I can say somewhere inside I hate aos for that same reason. I just don’t bring it up. To this day I can’t make myself give aos a chance even if some of the models are very nice.
i build armies for both, my mrs has armies for both, she has the rule books for both, and 40k. everyone i know who plays ToW also plays either AoS and/or 40k. the people who go to bat hard for their game against the other systems are a bit of an odd bunch. not the weirdest bunch in the hobby tho, that spot is reserved for those people who wake up every day with a fire in their belly to go to bat against their game system of choice 😆
"i hate GW, 40k is dying and its the worst game ever made!!!!" says a 35 year old man who has been saying that daily for the last 10 years while hes also spent £2000 on gw 40k models and played 30 games of 40k for every one of those years.
theres some strange fish out there.
Friggin accountants!
Journals are a perfect size. Bloat books to take to games suck. Need a only rule book book, with no fluff.
I was going to buy Old World as my first war game since I love Total War Warhammer but when I saw they didn't have two players starter set and the Skaven Tide box just got out I decided to go AOS. So far I love it,
There are people in the TOW community who are obsessed with AOS but I think they're a much smaller fraction of the base than their volume would suggest. The money GW is making from TOW is mostly coming from people who aren't really engaging with GW as much otherwise (way more than any of the other specialist games) and most of them don't seem to care about AOS all that much beyond sourcing it for minis for TOW.
I think there are a small number of extremely online bell-ends who make a lot of noise about this but I, like all reasonable people, just ignore them. They're vocal but most TOW players are just enjoying TOW for what it is and I really don't believe that the anti-AOS mindset is all that common among most of the people who are playing TOW right now. It's a product of horrible social media algorithms driving hate, just like everything else.
I think that it would be better for the old world community overall if it DIDNT become one of the main games. Do we really want that relentless model and rules churn? I want a less volatile more stable game.
Whats more stable than a completed rules set like any of the old editions of whfb? Genuine question - its one of these things where i don’t understand why it needed to be “brought back” - it didnt go anywhere, the rules-set was complete, people had their armies, they just stopped playing it because they decided they want new shiny stuff or that games workshop cancelling further support equated to them not being able to play it anymore, like new editions vs old editions.
I think they need to keep releasing something to maintain the interest over the long term and they have plenty of options there to put legacy armies back in or add new ones, that said I agree it would be best if it didn’t become one of the main games that way GW won’t mess around with it too much
GW absolutely tracks sales by product line... or at least tries to. The upper management doesn’t really understand the hobby and community... so they can’t or don’t understand that people are buying models to use in any games they choose. The upper management is trying to use sales data to determine where to direct resources. Anyone who has worked in a company that produces products understands that there is competition between product lines for resources.
You guys can see it in your own store, in a way... In a sense, the different product lines are competing for shelf space based on sales. The product lines that generate sales get more space. So look at it this way, in the AoS vs TOW balance. If you see that people are mainly buying AoS models to use for TOW then that will influence your decisions regarding which books, dice, card packs etc to stock. It will also inform your decisions about which AoS factions to stock. If the faction, say Seraphon, has crossover to TOW you’ll be more likely to keep those models in stock, than Kharadron Overlords.
Train time !
When the game and setting and multiple armies you lobr and pour hundreds of hours in gets squatted you might be a bit concerned about the games sales ie longevity
Heh, you guys are great Good messages as usual.
Thanks mate
Yes
It's funny how you mentioned how much dick measuring gets done by TOW players and then half the comments are those, or something similar! 🤣
A couple of points:
I think you're right that they don't care what people are buying for what game. They're clearly not paying attention whether people are buying Kairos, Skarbrand etc etc for AoS or for 40K. By far and away most sales for Underworlds and Warcry are AoS players but them bringing out a new version of Underworlds seems to indicate it doesn't really matter from where the cash flows -- small khorne joke. Though them retiring some lines to AoS from Underworlds is certainly interesting -- Skabbik's Plaguepack and the new Stormcast one.
Obviously I'm very involved with most of their games except HH and Titanicus but I'm very happy that TOW returned. It's a universe I absolutely love and one I support but it's still very much a boutique game from the specialist side of their manufacturing. Hopefully it gets enough support that it can become like the Horus Heresy and get an actual full starter box like they did over there. Only time will tell though.
Appreciate the content though boys, do you think they'll rerelease Space Hulk? It's been exactly 10 years since 4th edition and over 3 years since we've had a boxed game -- Cursed City. I'd love that in whatever form I could get it.
As for the title, ToW isn't stealing anything from AoS in this house... because we'd never bought any AoS in the 1st place 😅
There is definitely tribal antagonism from the WFB fanboys toward AoS players. It is like they expect anyone who plays AoS to apologize for having engaged in an act of sacrilege. But there also seems to be antagonism between Old World players and Kings of War players. I have seen some evidence of MESBG players sniping at Old World players, too. Is there anything like this between the Sci-fi games or is it just a fantasy thing?
Why do they do it? Of course it is about identity. Humans are fundamentally social creatures. We have a natural inclination to form groups. We experience this as an urge to belong. This drives people to seek out a group identity.
In modern society, historic group identities are displaced by universal values. We live in the age of Pax American, the American Empire, and every empire replaces the particular values of constituent cultures with it's own brand of universalism. One consequence of this is that people don't have their historic identities and must find a modern identity to fulfill their need to belong.
One solution to this problem is to embrace Nerd-dom (or Fandom, if you like). Some people become Trekkies, or Starwars fans, or Furries even, and so on. Gamers are another example of a nerd identity. Notice how upset all these groups become if some aspect of their choose belief system is changed. 40K fans are another example and show the tribal group reaction to changes in their belief system, such as the introduction of female Custodes.
On a tangent, it is kind of sad that people need to buy an identity in modern Western society. I am thinking this might explain why Gamers, Warhammer fans, etc seem to have this idea that the company they buy their identity from now owes them something. These people are not mere customers in their own minds, but feel they now own the essence of the entertainment IP and have some special bond to it that those who are not true members of their tribe don't have (eg: Real Gamers versus Tourists). Whereas in reality it is a hobby (a form of entertainment) and purchasing such products is purely transactional. Anyway...
The WFB fanboys are another Nerd-dom identity group. However they group has been under threat and they become like stateless refugees for some years. This makes for a very defensive and touchy tribal group, fearful of their survival and resentful of the new tribe (ie: AoS players) that took their territory. The other fantasy player groups would also be small and in fear of their tribe's continued existence.
Should people be basing their identities on their entertainment/hobbies? Well, people will be people. They need something to belong to, however trivial it might be and however tragic they might look if they take it way too seriously. As irritating as the fanboys will be, it is best to avoid being too judgmental. That will only feed their insecurity and perpetuate the divisiveness in fantasy gaming. I wonder if it would be too insulting to suggest therapy?
For me, I like both games. I see AoS as an alternative to 40K (similar game design), and Old World as something that is slower paced and a good retirement home for models that are removed from AoS. Oh, and nostalgia. Old World definitely has a big dose of nostalgia that gives it a lot of appeal. From what I hear, 40K players like Old World for the same reason, as a change of pace, though without the possibly of re-purposing older models.
Succesfully clickbaited!
Love it. More shill !!!! 🖤
I started playing 40k back in 2001.
I watched the rise and fall of Fantasy battles.
I never started playing as the community was toxic, they where re writing rules and arguing all the time. Fantasy guys where looking down on us 40k players.
Fantasy, as a game did not work. It had silly rules. You cannot march near to the opposition, but you can charge...your unit is blind outside the 45 view arc. It wasn't good.
And it did not sell. Months before they killed it, a single tactical squad f marins kit....one type of unit made more sales then the entire fantasy range!
That's why they ended it. That's why they're careful.
It all depends where you are. In Scotland and in NZ fantasy had great community and I don't recall ever having anything more than a discussion about what the right rule to use/interpretation was.
I want the stuff that was teased for Old World... Grand Cathay and Kislev... I want to buy new models, not the stuff I already decided I didn't want 20 years ago.
I'm in a similar boat (chris). I've largely collected a lot of the range that has been re-released. I'm interested in new models!
I'm pretty sure they came out and stated flat out (I think it was a Twitter post?) that there is no plan on making Kislev of Cathay for Old World.
People all ASSUMED they would, because of the cooperation with Creative Assembly for Total War Warhammer III, but there was never anything announced that this was the plan.
@DarkZergkill In 2020, GW was posting content teases for The Old World with Kislev about it as a project currently in development and included art assets. They did post in an article on a Total War update (around the release of TOW) that they no longer had current plans to bring Kislev and Grand Cathay to tabletop.
Considering three years had passed between Kislev hype and release, I look at their exclusion as a project that just hadn’t developed as they wanted. I expect Kislev to make an appearance eventually since TOW is set just decades before the Siege of Praag.
@@kennethphillips6006 Yeah I just remembered that it was for all intents not going to happen.
But you are right, doesn't mean it can't change in the future. And we might just see Kislev (probably the more likely of the two) eventually joining the others in TOW.
@@kennethphillips6006 the exact words were “not for the foreseeable future”. That’s not a “no plans at all”.
AOS is total crap
Quite a few people like it, let them have their fun.
Beep! #Beephammer
I live in a major Canadian city and I go to two local hobby shops. TOW isn’t very popular when compared to AOS especially after spearhead released. Most people in my hobby shops play the ASOIAF miniature game if they want the rank and flank gameplay. The rules are much better than TOW,it’s cheaper, and the models look really good.
asoiaf looks like a$$ with those goofy round bases on square trays. The models look cheap up close. You cant compare it to a vintage 1995-2000 era whfb army. It's like modern art vs the mona lisa.
@@scatterthewinds3126 what a wild, plebian take you have. The models are cheap (Cost $110 for a starter box which comes with 50 models) thats the whole point. Your point about round bases in a square movement tray is weird and makes me think you have autism.
@@scatterthewinds3126 tumbleweeds in the UK for A Song Of Ice And Fire wargame. I haven't seen it played or mentioned in 5+ years.
As for me I’m hoping AoS is ahead of TOW in sales. Keep TOW where it is, don’t start hammering us with rules updates and faqs every other week.
Mordheim still has a strong community and people are happy with it.
I’ve wanted to get into AoS for a while now but it seems it’s going the same way that 40K rules with the constant changes.
When you buy a product - say an Old World product - and use it for Age of Sigmar, GW's ledger says its an OLD WORLD SALE and they will respond accordingly. The money doesn't go "into the same pot" it's well known now that the departments are in competition with each other. The profit all goes to GW but the INFO is what's important here. If people are buying AoS Skaven to play The Old World (which they mostly are imo) GW think that means AoS is doing well and TOW is not and will respond accordingly (like producing more models for AoS). Granted there is no "proof" other than their behaviour and Nottingham insiders claims (which we have no reason to doubt? Are you going these ex employees fibbers?) but it's pretty obvious at this point. That's why HH models were flipped to LEGEND for 10th edition, so there's clear feedback from sales.
If GW really didn't care what models you buy and the only motives they had were profit, then Old World's rules would have been written to allow round bases (which is easy to do) - and they'd be producing duel box sets with both round and circle bases in (as they used to do).
AoS was obviously a mistake, but some of the logic - round bases, easier rules etc - were sensible.
That being said TOW was also a "mistake" given they've just repeated every single mistake that destroyed WFB in the first place....
ADD: The "studios in competition" phenomena seems to be a recent development. It wasn't so long ago GW encouraged you to buy, say, WFB models to use for 40K conversions
I find your lack of proof disturbing 😉
There is enough reason to doubt 'ex employees'. Same thing with Underworlds supposedly being killed off, then, tadaa, new edition, while rumours by 'ex employees' said otherwise.
I find the HH exclusion from 40K as a compelling point here. Perhaps also why Forgeworld has been absorbed too - less noise between FW and GW sales.
Not sure about the rest of your post, but I wasn’t there for the end of Fantasy.
@@scepteredisle as an old world player I certainly wouldn’t want it to become a round based skirmish game. Happy for people to play with rounds on a movement tray, but TOW is and always should be a rank and flank game.
Very good summary. Thanks for taking the time to write it down in detail.
The biggest population is people who buy minis with the dream of playing sigmar or old world and never play either. Rules are just marketing they dont care why you buy