It's already time to talk about Landmark's Life After Landmark!!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ต.ค. 2024
- Anne Peterson, author of "Is This a Cult?" joins me again with an update on Landmark's state of affairs since she published her book 7 March this year - they've filed for bankruptcy and made a huge cut back in staff.
We talk about how this could have happened, was it the pandemic or were they already destined for closure pre-Covid?
For every party who had the resources and backbone to sue Landmark for damages, there are probably a thousand injured parties.
IF ONLY we had the true numbers... of a company driven by statistics. I wonder if they keep them... number of suicides, lawsuits, and yeah, people affected in a negative way from their transformational courses.
I wonder.
@@LifeAfterLandmark I believe they have these numbers and they could be surfaced through a litigation-based discovery process, or a congressional review (what is really needed.)
@@leslietaylor1396 I'm not so sure they'd have accurate figures, if they'd be documenting the people who left with physical, mental issues. Given that (they claim) their education is for life - there's no follow up to measure the success of their product/services.
Chapter 7 bankruptcy is designed for businesses (or individuals) that want to liquidate their assets to pay off creditors and then cease operations. Under Chapter 7, a trustee is appointed to oversee the liquidation of the company's assets, and the business is usually dissolved after the process is complete.
For restructuring purposes, a business would more likely use Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Chapter 11 allows a business to continue operating while it reorganizes its debts and other obligations under a court-approved plan. This type of bankruptcy provides the business with the opportunity to negotiate with creditors and potentially emerge stronger and more financially stable.
It is my understanding that Landmark Worldwide filed for Chapter 7.
Yes and my understanding is it's just one shell company
@@kristenpereira4113 Well, NXIVM had over 80 shell companies, none of which we ever hear about.
I remember making my "declaration" at the Forum. I had to think up something fast, because there was a lot of pressure to "being" something and creating that possibility. I made something up and felt stupid doing it, because it was facile. I did get a few good things from the Forum/Advanced Course, but that faded over a few days and I was back to just being me with the same problems and hopes and my own "possibilities" (that I made for myself). And if Landmark really, truly wanted to test its effectiveness, they have to have an independent study done over years to track a lot of graduates and see what happened to them over time. You two always have such great discussions! Thanks, Dale and Anne.
Thanks Michael... and the pressure... what if I choose the wrong one???
Independent Study, I agree, and how interesting would that feedback be... I have my hand up :)
@@LifeAfterLandmark I choose chococlate. And I choose never to be involved with that place again. As for a study/evaluation. I think LM would hate that being done, even when good business practice says it should be done.
I live in Turkey and I completed my Landmark forum last Sunday, with the training provided by Michelle Ong. (As you might guess, I was recommended by someone I really like and trust, and I didn’t question it at all.) I must say, although some of the things discussed are considered correct even if they belong to the old world, the pressure from the 'leaders' to 'tell those around you about Landmark, or you won't complete, your "authenticity" won't happen' was extraordinarily excessive. There was almost bullying-level pressure regarding both the advanced training and inviting people around us from 9 a.m. to 10 p.m. on Sunday morning, and even before that amazing 'closure.' If someone on the street stopped you and called you a 'half person, little person, your people are more skeptical than people from other parts of the world,' you would argue. But this was something completely different. I don’t know if they had this much pressure before, but I thought that this bankruptcy issue led to more pressure in Landmark forums in countries outside of USA
Dale, the Forum Leaders “killer shares” were so verbatim that people in the back of the room would sometimes mouth along with them!! 😳
I really did enjoy Randy McNamara's poop in the fishbowl bit.
@@roxanne533 and the helicopter accident that left a wicked scar down his face.
yep.... I remember being confused, saying to the course supervisor "he shared that last time though"... the CS... "yeah, it's his killer share.... you'll learn in the ILP"
@LifeAfterLandmark I don't remember that one but I was only there as an IL for evening sessions
@@roxanne533 oh, actually Roxanne, it could have been that he shared that in staff meetings. Ohhh.. the memories of Randy come flooding back.
I am currently researching Erhard's "prison projects". I believe these were conducted under the umbrella of "Prison Possibilities" and were executed by Erhard and 'volunteers'. I am particularly interested in something called "The Lompoc Project"....whereby, the efficacy of est was measured among a prison population w/ control group. I believe these experiments were carried out a Lompoc State Prison (CA), San Quentin Prison (CA) and at other venues. The time frame would be 1972-1975. The only published research results I am aware of are dated 1975. I would be interested in speaking to any former est/Landmark member who has information about this work in prisons.
interesting I'm curious to hear more about these experiments too. I'm always wary of data being biased, if this were an independent study the results could have been very different.
@@LifeAfterLandmark The study at Lompoc Prison was paid for by the Werner Erhard Foundation.
They could have fixed their business by not using the distinction enrollment to turn people into sales bots. That began eroding me right away.
agreed, it's the one practice that if they changed many would return.
Staff are being told there's a waiting list to participate in the in person Landmark Forums. Is that true?
One of my favorite Wernerisms was all about how we have to continue to water the tree (of transformation) and not just pick the fruit. In other words, do the next course!
Too funny... Wernerisms!!!
Common to virtually all LGAT organizations that I am aware of is the use of large cadres of volunteers. I wonder if the reliance on volunteer labor prevents these entities from professionalizing. It seems to me that absent a labor agreement, such workers operate w/o a range of legal protections.
yes, THIS Leslie... they are operating inside their own laws which is a form of anarchy... far from professional. I doubt it would be possible for Landmark (and other LGAT's) to compete in the market if they paid staff award rates. It's an unrealistic, unsustainable, and illegal business model.
@@LifeAfterLandmark I saw the same business model in the ICF (International Coach/ing Federation), 40 employees, 400 volunteers. The rationale is that because the organization is 'international', they need helpers in each country. Imagine that you introduce program materials in English and you need 40+ translations; this is where the helpers step in; and they manage events, and spend hours each week proselytizing the organization.
Im so conflicted. Still an IL but ive been feeling concerns for a year.
well, good on you for at least acknowledging your concerns. That's a GREAT start. Keep tuning in to all of the discussions that are starting, you're not alone and you could hear the common ground we all went through before getting out and (finally) talking.
@LifeAfterLandmark yea its so confronting. I've been around this work for 30 years and we turn ourselves inside out to be 'coachable' and evolve into people we didn't think we could be. I owe sooooo much to this work. Legitimately the quality of my relationships business and everyday life really IS much better because of it. Landmark was always a good relationship that I occasionally have an argument with. But what I struggle with is the lack of transparency.
And then the whole, if not this, then what? Because what I am clear on is I do have a group of peers that keep me empowered. I'm kinda scared to cast all that aside and be on my own. There's many many different emotions and angles to it all working through this.
@DaleDickins thanks I appreciate that. It's a little heartbreaking as I'm sure many feel. Being candidated was a very proud moment for me. And was looking toward seminar leader. But yyen it kinda started to feel like seminar leader was 80% learning how to sell programs and 20% leading seminars. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows
@@personalwatching9312 I feel for you, sounds like Landmark is a huge part of your life still, after all these years. The struggle is real when you cannot be heard with valid concerns within that organisation. I appreciate the difference being there has made for you, it IS incredible work that gets done within those closed walls, and yet, while parts of me thrived, other parts shrivelled up and died. Being there became the same as living with my mother all over again, being in a closed space with somebody in complete denial as to what was happening as it happened. I thought I was going crazy. People unwilling to be transparent and acknowledge certain truths make an already complex life much more complicated.
and, for what it's worth, living without these support networks is REALLY where their Education lives. You will have to apply everything you've learned.. as they say, it's where the rubber hits the road. From how you're communicating thru these brief comments, I can hear you've got what it takes.
Support networks are being formed outside of that tight circle now,. There are many people willing to support you through the process... or, when you're ready, you can be part of a network supporting others as the company collapses.
"Using standard business practices" is literally standard business practice.
It's a for-profit company, people!
standard business practices means paying people award rates... with overtime, sick leave, etc. And that, they refuse to do.
@@LifeAfterLandmark I get that. Your critique is a little muddled though - it veers between a critique of capitalism and standard business practices when Landmark adheres to them, and a critique of Landmark when they do not.
I think the strongest argument would be against deviation from standard or legally-required business practice where it exists, as you point out in your comment.
@@sitapati please give examples of what you hear me saying as critique and muddled.
The movie is called "Goodbye Lenin", Dale
Thanks Roxanne. I lived in Germany for 3 years, in November 1989, when the wall came down. This movie struck a chord with me, a tsunami of people from the East Bloc arrived.. really cautiously. Very easy to spot, they looked like they'd stepped out of a 1940's movie, driving cars that sounded like lawn mowers in one of three shades of beige. The clothing, and behaviour was so different... hundreds of people in the village I lived, walking around suspiciously, very wary and at the same time, curious... questioning... was the West really like what they'd been told??
I would appreciate you if you would provide me how you are distinguishing “abuse”. How do we know with certainty when any of the various forms have happened, and what is not.
Hi Duane, you'd be best going to Anne's channel, that's where she covers those topics. Here is mostly for meeting people who have left Landmark and want to talk about their experience.
Bottom line, if you put the work, the work works. Else it is loat in a few days.
Regarding the business model. It is like a bank: you have money you keep in the bank to get interest. In landmark you keep participating in programs to keep hetting the value and meeting the people you love.
Perfect
it depends. Are you talking about being a paying participant or a non paid assistant. There's a huge difference between two forms of agreeing/contracting with this company.
Dale… please improve your sound quality in the future. Thank you
55:00 I'd love to know what podcast Anne was referring to, was it a presentation by David Emerald?
They call him “source?” wow, I guess the total Scientology rip off is actually a thing.
Here is a challenge for you: what is the distinction "Transformation"?
I can distinguish many distinctions, but this I hear being said all the time ("transformation") - but what is it as a distinction?
@@sitapati rigorously, it's a shift in the locus of identity
One goes from being their Identity to having their Identity
Integrity is the foundational distinction
The moral hazard is that Integrity gets used as a cudgel (morality) to influence people into doing what isn't in their best interest
@@AllenRichter-s7m thank you, that is clear.
Not sure what is all this talk about "the work" and the company and how its going to go forward etc. It is a money making machine, based on free work and selling conecepts and experiences that you bring about.
Everything that is not build on a pillar of integrity will collaps eventually, so will Landmark.
Focus should be on recovery not about being worried about company that failed, brainwashed and used its customers.