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Get a Grip (how you hold you rifle makes a difference)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.ย. 2021
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I love it when you tell me I have been doing it right for the last 50y years.
Lol, cheers
I just tried once as those 95% of the people on the range do it...and I was all over the target. So went back to 100% input and bipods.😂
You can’t even imagine how helpful what you do! Just wanted to say real thank you Sir for everything you do 👍💯
Thanks Kut kut, Cheers and all the best.
@@markandsamafterwork thank you
Thanks for all the videos. I appreciate it everytime an expert shares the basics with us. The fundamentals are so often overlooked and they really are the keys to being successful.
Yeh, they sure help, glad you liked, Cheers
The question is do they help you enough for you to help contribute to them making more videos?
@@JohnSmith-ir5pv Yes they do and I have. I have purchased muzzle brakes from their shop. How have you contributed ?
@@rationalmind6362 i was just playing around,, I can barely afford my studio apartment let alone a gun.
@@JohnSmith-ir5pv We are legion.
You'll get there.
Great explanation of this technique. One thing I really like about your channel is that you don’t speak in absolutes. “this always works”, or “this never happens”. That is the sign of a true expert.
Cheers Will, thanks
In most cases, the firearm is an extension of the body. The body does absorb harmonics and telegraphs very little in return. Thank you for affirming what has worked for me for many years.
Cheers Man, glad you liked, thanks
7:00 interesting to hear this. I shoot always using bipods and only recently tried bags and I was all over the target.It's budget Howa 1500 heavy barrel Kryptek 308. but it seems this small rifle ask for human input. Great videos and a lot to learn. Cheers
Thanks Man
‘… and his girlfriend started to kick his arse…’😂😂😂😂
Gotta love the Aussie vernacular.
Great info.
Again - many thanks.
Cheers Rob
Pretty sure that's an Americanism old boy...not pretty sure... certain..
Mark, I have learned more about long range shooting from you and Sam than any other sources put together. Thanks man. You guys are awesome!
Cheers James, thanks man.
Everything you said is true I watch my friend snap a stock on a 375 h&h from strapping it so tight in his led sled I do all my sighting and practice as if I was in the field personally and works out well for me
Can happen, and yep sure is the way I suggest too, Cheers
First Rex gives me a barrel review and now you guys give me technique information..... life is good.
Lol, Cheers
When I was in the Army Reserve I was instructed to twist my wrist inwards on the pistol and fore grip handle when using the Styer. Not too tight but enough so you don't hands don't cramp up. Helped with recoil and optic realigning when the barrel would drop back down after shot with your site picture.
Cheers
Excellent!
A subject I’ve often wondered about, but never seen discussed-and certainly not in such clear detail. Thanks as always.
Thanks John, Cheers
I agree with your assessment. These rifles are made to be held on to, not to let it do it all by itself
Cheers Bob, thanks
Thank you again for another outstanding video. I personally thought of buying a lead sled a long time ago, because when shooting my 300 Weatherby from the bench, it was not pleasant! But I was afraid I would lose my shooting fundamentals! Which you just confirmed for me. I purchased a shoulder pad, which helped tremendously with the recoil, but still allowed me to be in control of my rifle. I’m so glad, I made the right call.
Good call man, could have been even worse on that one, lol, Cheers
Hi Mark, I remember being told these principle when my Pop and Dad taught me how to shoot when I was a little tucker. ( Airguns) I took it for granted that everyone got taught the same skill at arms principles. Now I will put more time into these principles with my own kids. Thanks for highlighting that factor.
Cheers Man, thanks
Glad I came accross this video, I've had some trouble grouping using a Lead Sled and was thinking that might be the problem. I'll try putting some pressure on the rifle or just going back to bags. Thanks!!!
Cheers Man
I had the same experience with the Lead Sled that I used to own. Sold it realizing it wasn't making me a better shooter or telling me anything about the accuracy of the loads I was developing. meh
Thanks for the warning about big calibers and lead sleds ruining the stock. I just purchased a CZ 550 Safari in 375 H&H and anticipated load development using my lead sled. I won’t do so thanks for your warning. The rifle wasn’t cheap and I don’t want to ruin it! Thanks for the video.
Cheers Man, thanks
I was migrating towards this same issue while shooting my hunting rifle at the bench for load development. Yes, lighter my grip, the worse my grouping was. Never thought about it much until now. Thank you for the words of wisdom.
amen..
Im used to shoot 6.5x55, and 6.5 Grendel. A good grip was core to get nice groups (two bags). When i got the 22 H i initialy though "recoil does not matter" so i held it loose.. and it spreads like mad then (well, twice of what it could). Firmer grip.. and it works wonders. The low recoil gives me better spotting of hits sure, but the recoil still needs to be managed.
Thanks rob, Cheers
Mark, one simple but, extremely important piece of advice for shooters. I have noticed this type of behavior most often watching shooters do ladder testing. For whatever reason, they start to relax so much that they lose all control of their weapon. I'm not a fan of the Caldwell lead sled, either, as I have seen beautiful wood stocks split and destroyed by recoil while using them due to misalignment of a rifle.
Thanks Craig, glad you liked, Cheers
Mark you should see the almost universal rubbish that's said about the so-called 'artillery hold' being the best way to shoot a spring-powered air rifle, a gun that behaves like a 'Jack-in-a-box' with its double recoil characteristics. I hold all my rifles Spring, PCPs and .22 rimfire securely but not with a death-grip. I call it the 'new born baby hold'. Thanks for your expert views unlike so much error out there about shooting.
Cheers Mike, thanks
Very informative. Thanks for sharing the importance of the human interaction while gripping the gun.
Cheers Jerry
Thanks Mark. I think you just answered why I have been experiencing some inconsistency with my .22lr. I have been a bit undecided on how to hold the rifle as I have received varied advise from too many "experts". I really appreciate all the effort you put into sharing you knowledge and experience.
Cheers Dave, thanks Man
I’ve noticed all these effects myself but didn’t realise it was true thanks for letting me know you gut feeling is often right 🤙
Cheers Simon, thanks
Leaning forward into the bipod with a grip on the gun makes a big difference in the groups
Thanks for the information
Cheers Len, thanks
Thanks to you now I know why at times I missed by a lot. Always thought it was either the bullet or the thermal clip on. Yet what I really need to do is start practicing my grip. Cheers from Indonesia.
cheers Johan
Couldn't agree more with your video. I've al ways found exact same results to what you've described. Thanks for the excellent videos you put together.
Thanks Ian, Cheers
So much great common sense thank y’all
Thanks George, Cheers
Sounds like it’s really a trial and error between you and your gun, as you say “it comes down to what works for you best”. More trigger time. Thanks Mark
Well find what works best, and practise, yes, Cheers
I’ve always found the best rifle grip pressure to be the same as the grip on a golf club; firm enough it won’t fly out of your hand but loose enough to allow hand muscles and tendons to move naturally. Not tense at all.
Yep, thanks Steve, cheers
cheers for that it gives me a starting point awesome
Nice to hear more of this from serious long range shooters. I cannot tell you how many times people (old farts mostly) have berated me about using a full pressure grip for precision shooting. Every single time I've tried these goofy soft grips I get such severe barrel bounce my groups double in size.
Cheers John, thanks
Great video! Just picked up a precision rimfire and was having accuracy issues, until I wrapped my thumb and held the stock tight into my shoulder. I needed this video three weeks ago. :-) Keep em coming.
Lol, Cheers Man, thanks
Spot on! I recently got a .22LR Christensen Arms rifle. Very light weight rig. I quickly found out it absolutely requires the shooter to hold it and correctly for what that rifle wants/needs. Because it's so light weight, it's very unforgiving. BUT...proper hold and fundamentals will have it shooting tiny little 5 shot groups at 50 yards which is extremely rewarding. I shot it at a small ipsc plate at154 yards last week and I was very pleased with how it ran. Sigh...yes I have a lead sled. Total waste of $$ IMHO. Thanks for the info and for bringing us along!
Thanks Man, Cheers
Recently took my bergara to a bench rest shoot. I was outclassed with my front and rear bags and my trigger pull didn’t match their 4oz triggers. I will keep going to them and one day I will compete even though my setup allows for more human error. Good explanation Mark
Cheers Kort, thanks
For me it means a lot. I life in germany where shooting&fun is very hard to find. But i have 10.000s of shot per year expirience with airguns. I am a precision nerd. So a real got rig allows me to do cardsplits; 5shot thrue exactly the same hole; so yes:
EVERYTHING changes! Even wearing t-shirt or t-shirt + hoody= more fluffy...more floffy=less "guiding"= bad shot.
But thats the fun. You simple dont learning.
This is why i love your work Sir.
Everything is including fun/enthusiasm.
Made mistake: you don't STOP to learn.
Sometime its the maximum disharmonie between shooter and gun on earth that leads to a "aha-effect".
Or haha your girlfriend takes the gun, shoots a perfect bullseye...
Thanks Man, Cheers
Thanks mark for all your good advice as always mate👍p.s really impressed with my bag rider the workman ship is outstanding 👍
Awesome, Cheers man, thanks
Makes sense. In earlier vids published, I took note that less input was better - having tried this with the 308, I noticed groups were terrible, missing 4 inch plates at 200m while tenderly touching the trigger only and just enough shoulder so not to fly off the shooting table... There's a balance in everything, harmonics and movement in rifle just after the firing pin hits the primer... Thanks Mark
All about the overall combo, but we always use good contact, just light hand contact on some of our ELR rigs, still good body contact, Cheers
Thanks Mark for sharing your experience with us. I noticed the difference if I'm not get enough grip.
Cheers, thanks man.
Thanks for the tips, Mark. Much appreciated.
Cheers Tony
I believe every word he said. I recently watched a guy at my club shooting a beautiful Ruger .300 Win Mag in a lead sled with premium ammunition and a high end scope. He was getting 2.5-3" groups at 100 yards. It was preperation for a trip to Africa and he was not very confident in his results. I knew the results he was getting were absolutely caused by his lead sled. He thought it was the ammo. I proved him wrong.
Awesome, Cheers man, thanks
Well for hunting Im a firm believer in sight them in and practice like you will use them in the field. For example my 45/70 and double rifle I sight them in and do load development over the roof of the maxima with my hands resting on shooting bags mainly because there is a good chance I will be shooting these rifles off hand or with an improvised rest but my hands will always be the point of contact with the rifle.
Was out doing some serious bunny shooting with the HMR the other day and was using a shooting stick . I had sighted the rifle in using shooting bags . Couldnt hit a thing until I started using my hand between the shooting stick and the for end or my back pack as a rest for the long shots.
very true... I shoot better groups with my iron sights than I do with my bipod.... Its a work in progress.. In the army I always used my ruck sack instead of a bipod. I may go back to that and only use my bipod when absolutely necessary if I cant get control of it..
Cheers
Something I confess to doing sometimes unknowingly, consciously something to remember.
Cheers
In fencing we have a good word for it.
Hold weapon like you're holding a bird, hard enough so it doesn't escape but loose enough so it doesn't get crushed.
Btw.. I've owned a Browning 22blr myself. Excellent for exhibition shooting and just for fun shooting. One rifle I regret I sold..
Thanks Dan, Cheers
Great content from alaska. This a bit before the vid. But it fixed my 28 nosler it was a long path but I couldn't agree more. I look forward to your videos when they come out. Great content. I will be a regular always and have supported the sight threw some sweet stickers and with that I will post my fan chamber as a 204 ruger. Mark and Sam me and my wife are a big fan.
Thanks Man, glad you liked, Cheers and all the best
Very interesting video, I shoot alot with big bore airguns and they are very hold sensitive. First there is a heavy hamner smacking the valve open and after that the barrel time starts when you already have the harmonics of the valve hammer traveling through the rifle.
Yes, would very much apply, Cheers
Ive heard semi autos explained in a way that might be applicable, the trigger is just setting off the machine. Your follow through and natural point of aim has to be solid throughout the function of the bolt reciprocating.
How you squeeze that trigger is very important for precision shooting also
Makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the video.
Cheers Man, thanks
Another great video! There’s been times I have found that to be all so true when shooting with my son. I can get a rifle shooting good but just the difference between us so a lot of times when I have a new rifle and scoop that I’m working on and it’s not quite right or my groups aren’t quite what I would like ! Before I change anything will have him shoot it to see if it needs to be changed or it’s me and how I’m shootings and what I need to do before making changes over and over.
Good plan, cheers
Now I know what I did wrong last Saturday!😢Thank you Mark😃👍
Cheers Man, thanks
Yeah man I've seen lead sleds tear some things up... Action screws backing out or shearing off, stocks crack, and optics slip in rings or rings come loose not to mention everytime I've used them I tend to get worse groups similar to what you were talking about... Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!
Thanks Dan, Cheers
Great presentation Mark. I love the technique tips. Keep them coming.
Thanks Man, cheers
I once made the mistake of using a 12ga semi auto wearing cotton gloves as it was a freezing cold night.
Only to find my ability to hold it was like trying to hold onto a slimy fish, with the recoil making it slide in my grip and kick more.
Last time I ever used gloves when shooting.
Cheers
This can also be a scope problem. Lead sleds raise havoc with scopes.
Thanks for the great videos.
Cheers
I agree. I pull the rifle firmly into my shoulder even though it's on a sand bag.
cheers
You continue to read my mind. Just the other day I was experimenting with this very concept off the bench with an AR-15 I had recently built. Even with the modest 5.56x45 cartridge and a moderately heavy rifle, minimal human input sprayed bullets all over the place. With a solid 4-points of contact grip (shoulder, cheek, trigger, forend/buttstock) everything was on target. On a related note, being in solid contact with the rifle is just far more comfortable and thus more repeatable; rifles are designed to be held in a certain way and by not holding them thusly, I think it can actually make the human side of things less repeatable due to the unnatural way you are engaging the rifle.
Yep, thanks man, glad you liked, Cheers
Yes! Semi autos seem to be much more sensitive to input (along with thinner barrel sporter bolt guns)
Very important information. 👍
Pozdrawiam z Polski 🍺
Thanks Adam, Cheers
This is an interesting take on things as it is often the case that people try to remove the human element from shooting the rifle to establish its intrinsic accuracy.
As said sometimes works, but normally, not so much, Cheers
I totally agree with this. But I try and fully bed my whole stock on heavy recoiling rifles to make it shoot no matter how you grip it. But very good information and I hate led sleds
Cheers Man, thanks
Great advice 👍 Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and experience 😁 Great, use some of your advices and already got better results 😀
Thanks Man, great to hear, cheers
Great advice Mark. Thanks again.
Cheers Man
You are correct hero 👍👊☝️
Thanks Lyndon
I really enjoy your thaughts
Cheers
Hey Mark
Thanks man another great video , makes a lot of sense as always , Steve .
Cheers Steve
Presuming that the big cartridge in the group is a .505 Gibbs, I identified it correctly before you picked up the rifle. There are Indeed some real geeks around, aren't there?
Lol, Cheers Geoff
Good advice Sam. My experience has shown me preload is vital to consistency. Pull back into the shoulder with a force equaling the weight of the rifle along with preload on the bipod pushing forward allows me to put 3 shots through the same hole at 100 metres with my surgeon 300WINMAG. My .22 Anschultz 1710 however is much more critical. So sensitive to everything, I am not sure if I have mastered the perfect hold for it or just at the limit of what the ammo consistency is. Very difficult to get all tens with IRB at 50 metres.
Thanks Man, Cheers
This is specially true in my case with a particular rimfire rifle I own with a synthetic stock. I have to hold it in a specific way all the time for it to shoot accurate. If it’s on a bench pressure and pressure points are important and if I’m holding it for offhand or assisted shots I have to hold it in marked points. It’s my truck and bush gun for thick cover hunts. It’s very accurate for a hunting rimfire rig and I would like to change its stock to a chassis but it does not have any aftermarket options except the Boyd’s synthetic stock but like I said it’s a truck and heavy bush outdoor gun. I live in the tropics and a laminated stock does not last long in the conditions I use the gun. It’s a tack driver though as it has a premium 12.5 inch custom made barrel, a 9 oz trigger and a very good Phil made 2-10x42 power hunting scope and leupold mounts. 😆
Your onto it, Cheers man all the best.
Thanks, I needed to hear that.
Thanks Richard
Great video Mark , well explained ...
Cheers Shane, thanks
Big misconception people make when sighting in without touching is that it's supposed to be sighted to you, not sighted into to laser perfection.
Cheers
Good. Very intersting. Human could put all worst and better... It is just with one by one.
Cheers
True words. Thanks for the video cheers from a yank in America 🤣
Cheers Mick, thanks
Nice!💪
Cheers
Always great advice
Cheers
Have a great day!!
Same, Cheers
Amen
Cheers
I’ve been told to pull the rifle into the shoulder as much as the rifle weighs. I don’t know how to measure that and I’m sure they meant that for hunting weight rifles. In practice I’ve just used a firm and consistent pressure and got good results.
Cheers Man, thanks
Another great topic!
Cheers
I was shooting my cz 455, 22wmr for the first time a while ago and I was getting lousy groups at a 100m. I had never really shot 22's that much and my last experiences were of a 338 TRG and a 50cal Barrett while shooting prone and not off of a bench like I was doing now. I was shooting it sort of like I was shooting those heavier sniper rifle systems, not holding the forend at all. Then I tried holding it and instantly got a sub MOA group. I now realize that because it was bag rested it had no preload and if I only hold the back end, the barrel is free to jump as it pleases. With the barrel time of a 22 I guess that can easily create inaccuracy.
Cheers
Always great videos thanks sir!!!if i may add something consistent pressure i found is key.
Yep, Cheers
Great Video Guys!
Cheers
Thanks Mark !!
Cheers
Very useful, thanks mate!
Cheers
I was taught over 50 years ago that any rifle that will ever be hand held should always be hand held, even on a rest. Failure to do so will cause the POI to deviate away from the rest.... everyone knew this stuff 50 years ago, and so much seems to have been lost in a welter of flash technology....
Can be a bit like that, lol, Cheers
Great video. My personal opinion is that the Caldwell company does not cater to serious accuracy shooters. Yes, I have some of their equipment, but I don't use it for my personal LR shooting. The "Led Sled" is the biggest fraud in the accuracy shooting world!
Cheers
As a rookie benchrest(.22lr) shooter I have been dealing with this topic...the more seasoned guys tell me for precision i need to shoot free recoil, only pinching the trigger with thumb and index finger. They say don't even look through the scope once set...read the wind and fire when calm. I don't like that. Feel like i am not shooting the rifle...not very fun. I have found my CZ 457 like a firm hold...my custom 10/22 likes a lite hold...anyway thank you for the video
As said, some rifles (like bench rest rifles) can be set up for that, but really all about what works for you, Cheers
It may be useful Mark to make a video on F class free recoil. It fundamentally conflicts with standard shooting principles. Most F class shooters ae trying to minimise any contact with the rifle and arrest its recoil within 10mm of the shoulder.
I try not to talk about things I don't practise, sorry.
@@markandsamafterwork Cheers. That is a pity. I was wondering which technique produces the best groups. I do note that ELR shooters in States use both techniques. There must be a good reason why most winning FTR and F class shooters use free recoil
@@markandsamafterwork Another of the reasons we love the channel so much! Thx M & S
👍😊 hang on 👍
Cheers
Great stuff 👍
Cheers Man, thanks
after years of shooting .22lr i finally realized that the riffle cannot move when it fires or it will open up your groups. my groups shrunk from 4 inches to the size of a golf ball at 100 yards when i started really holding the rifle .
Thanks JB
I find this concept to be true of lighter rifles, especially some airguns.
True, Cheers
the problem i have found with leadsleads and other bench rests is people not having a consistent eye relief
Can be, Cheers
Ive found this to be true shooting CCI quiet ammo for groups. Did not like a light grip at all, I assume the longer dwell time makes ot extra sensitive to shooter input. I find my ARs also like a much firmer grip/pull into the shoulder also.
Yes the quiet ammo in a good trainer for that reason, Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork when the supply catches up to demand check out the quiet semi loading (if you can get it in Aus). 45gr bullet about 100fps faster than the standard quiet. Really nice for casual plinking without ear pro and holds together a little farther than the standard quiet. Which goes back to using faster 22lr for longer distances, definitely holds true.
I had friends arguing over this sighting in a 3006 last year before deer season. Its a shame this isnt taught when you attend the hunter safety class as a kid..
Yep, sure can help, Cheers
I'm not even interested in LRS I'm using your advice to shoot more accurately for big game.
Cheers Man, thanks
I've found similar moving from a .22 to a .44mag. Not holding the .44 tight enough after just shooting the .22 would cause accuracy issues offhand.
Yep, Cheers
This is why i don't like shooters to underrate airguns.
They don't understand that as example old springloaded quality guns need a perfect hold of the shooter.
To stiff...you go all over the place...to week you go all over the place either...
A lot of things are going on in the mechanics and physics from the moment you decide to shoot....and the bullet leaves the barrel.
Even on a sandback it likes or hates the balancepoint.
But, my opinion, thats part of the fun. I had a peeeerfect gun. No new holes after first hole. But i found it boring.
Never missed Card-Splits, Matches...
I guess, as in any hobby, the gear you use should fit to your moneypocket. The difference makes the price per shot.
Sometimes in winter i do thousends of shots. So a lot of experience.
Guys who tell i shot bmg 50cal...bladi bla...fine...cool ..
How many shots did you do/practice...no answer.
Big difference. 1Shot 50$..
or Match diabolo 5000shots for the same money.
Cheers
👍
Cheers
Hi Mark and Sam, love your videos. I must admit I have been doing that when developing handloads, trying to take me out of the equation, but what you say makes sense. My question is how do you take your heartbeat out of the equation? I reckon the cross-hairs seem to move maybe by 1/4 to 1/2 moa during a heartbeat, and timing trigger pull between beats seems easier said than done. Thanks again for the videos.
Not a problem we have, maybe to do with keeping our chest up off the ground, we have a few videos on our prone shooting position, Cheers
So you mean the rifle will not got and shoot accurately by itself? What a concept!! I was going to send mine hunting by itself while I was at work. HAHAHA
Stay safe. Take care. Have fun. 😎
Lol, Cheers
How can you get a great sight picture with this no touch technique honestly? You need to positively grip to get the mind right to shoot in all reality. I personally have experience in 45-70 and 416 Weatherby Magnum. Without a tight grip expect a black eye if you do not grip. With a solid grip you get an abs workout if you shoot much.
Lol, yep, Cheers
I know mark and sam can't help me here but can someone let me know what is fun about competition classes where all guns are in sleds without movement and only needing to touch the trigger? I haven't done it but seems anyone could get a expensive rifle built and do this? Is it all about who can make the best projectile load and best at reading wind? Just seems boring. Love target shooting but i actually want to shoot it.
Cheers Paul
My 20" 308 also has to be manhandled a bit to shoot its best. Bit of a handful of you not setup correctly.
Lol, some are like that, Cheers