As an average runner, I thought I wouldn't gain too much advantage with my VFNext% but every time I wear them, I'm consistently running at 15-20sec faster per km for the same effort. The VFs took me to a new 10k PR off the bike and a standalone half marathon PR. Definitely worth it, IMO
Curious thoughts. It shows you care about your time, not your ability or the journey to improve. If a shoe gives you a better time, you haven't gotten better, you've simply moved your goalpost and look better on Strava. An ego boost..... saying that, I think I'll buy some 😅
@@user-nc3rc7sk9p not really curious. If you are racing you want to give yourself every opportunity possible to perform. Otherwise you would turn up on race day hungover and ride the bike leg on a BMX
@@user-nc3rc7sk9p It's certainly an ego boost but isn't it the same as wearing a TT helmet? Or running a disc wheel? We leave the "fast" stuff for race day for marginal gains whilst continuing to improve ourselves during the process using daily gear?
I recently got the Kiprun KD900X, Decathlon's carbon shoes. They cost 149€, so withing my usual budget for a regular shoe. I'm not going to detail the specs but it's a proper "super shoe", very lightweight, high stack, finely tuned foam and carbon plate of course. I am mostly a trail runner, I only run in the road for triathlons (Olympic distance) and a few races (10K, half marathon). Anyway I've been training on the track with them and I am getting good results, I'm definitely faster for the same effort. But unlike the video explains I don't feel like I get an "energy return", what I feel that I get with them is a solid stable base where the energy transfer from foot to ground is very efficient. I am slowly adding them in some key sessions in preparation for Barcelona's Marathon next year, my first marathon, that's why I got them. Slowly getting used to your new shoes is key to success. Also it's important to alternate the shoes you use, some with a lower stack that strengthen your feet, some with more stack for longer runs, etc. If you run regularly having two pairs of shoes has many advantages. And your shoes will last longer because you give the foam more time to recover it's shape.
Awesome video James. Vincent Luis mentioned a similar thing in a Sweat Elite video. He said he doesn’t wear carbon shoes too much. Save them for racing to really feel the extra boost. He was doing a 30k tempo session in Nike pegasus. He said with non-carbon shoes you strengthen more the foot and specilly big toe propulsion. I usually only wear my Hoka Rocket X’s for racing or race simulations but I see lots of beginners on easy runs wearing Vaporfly’s, I am sure this video will help a lot of them 🙌🏻
For years I have done most of my running in barefoot shoes. I've tried a few carbon plate shoes and generally do not like the spongy feel of them - but I've found some that I can live with. They are undoubtedly fast and are first choice for most races. Best to mix it up in training in my opinion, so I'll wear the super shoes, barefoot shoes and flats
ON shoes are amazing. Not even sponsored by them or anything but switching to them both got me faster and kept me injury free. Not sure why but they just fit me right. I had ASICS and Nike before. Nike always got me injured. ASICS were just slow. But ON is the ticket for me.
@@stefanomaiorana5713 ASICS is one of the worst shoes I have ever tried and many of my running friends agree. With Nike if you don't spend over $200 you end up with horrible quality running shoes.
I'm a slow runner(27' 5K,56' 10K,2:06' HM) and personal i feel a litle ''push'' with a carbon plated shoe at paces faster than 5':00''/K,now i have the endorphin speed 2 after testing 4 saucony models because i felt it better in my foot
@@Sundownerrr I can't tell for sure because as i train my times improve.Also when i was running at high school we don't have this modern equipment although we were good runners
Have not always like the generalizations made on some science in recent pieces, but I must say this video was really well done. Take a bow for this one. Good on you for bringing in a non dramatic expert (albeit from a brand) as well.
I trail run in low stack, zero drop Topos because I like the ground feedback but they always remind me I need to work on foot strength. I road run in nylon Saucony endorphin speed for training and longer races in the carbon endorphin pro. What I found is that the tall stack light upper pros really don't like sharp corners so choose your courses but I had about equivalent fatigue at 35km in my Pros as I had at 30km in the Speeds for the same pace on the same course (Vanc Marathon). I think the carbon helps more as you tire and your form gets worse. I also think it's good to train in the matching non-carbon shoe as it rides in a similar way so you'll get the carbon benefit for races but keep your feet strong. When I bought them both pairs were 50% off so I bought them as a matched set.
I got the Vaporfly Next % and the Alphafly Next % 1 because they were on discount. I don't know whether I am a responder or not. I raced some shorter road races (10, 11, and 14km) but this was not long after getting back into running. None of the times beat my racing flat times from 6 years earlier. The true test will be when I'm at full fitness to see whether I can beat my PB's and maybe do some comparisons against racing flats (with equal fitness). I feel like racing flats can injure you with the lack of cushion but that may be because I'm in my 40s. I feel the extra padding in the carbon shoes is what reduces the chance of injury.
I’m a short distance jogger who have not jogged for over 6 years. I bought a Nike Fly with carbon plate and notice right away these are not normal shoes. They propel me forward they force me to run faster even when I feel I should slow sown. The spring feeling underneath feels like a trampoline its cushy. Its a n interesting experience. On my first run I just wanted to keep running end up doing a marathon. It hurt like hell next day
Started with the first iteration of Hoka's carbon rockets and they were great. Switched to Hoka Carbon X3 when they were worn out and to be fair they were just not doing it for me. The shoe felt heavy and slow (times showed they were still pretty fast). Made the move to Asics Metaspeed and they made a huge difference, felt comfortable and they are fast. I only use them for races or the occasional track training but I love them.
The Carbon X3 is not really a lightweight racer. It’s a big heavy Frankenstein mashup between a max cush and a carbon plated springboard. I’ve only tried it on and passed 😅
I think the actual benefit kicks in when we get comfortable in them, understand the biomechanical advantage it provides, and adjust the technique based on the shoes material.
Great video and thanks for the link to the paper too. I guess the one thing they cannot quantify is the effect that these shoes have on fatigue reduction. Much more emphasis on this metric for the marathon runners but its that softer foam that still has energy return. Cheers! 😊
Exactly, not all the carbon plated shoes are the same as the plate has to work in combination with the foam, in order to stabilize it during the striding phase. I've tested the most popular ones that use PEBAX foam (85% of energy return) at the running track (5x1km) and, so far, Puma Deviate Nitro Elite V.1 are the fastest (but probably very difficult to wear in T2). I must admit though, some shoes like the Saucony Endorphin Pro 3 and the Nike Alphafly V.1 (in the study mentioned they are the ones which outperform the other shoes in terms of running economy), although are slower, it seems they keep my legs less tired after the workout. Feel free to take a look at my channel and watch my tests.
Injured for months after 10k race in carbon shoes (after a few speed sessions and 5k time trail with no problems) and had to miss the HM race I'd trained 9 months for. Wish I'd not tried saving a few seconds!!
I definitely went from a normal running shoe to a carbon shoe for a half marathon race and got calf injuries and haven’t been able to run the same again since
As a very average runner I bought my 1st carbon plate shoe only a few weeks back (new balance fuel cell sc) and i absolutely love them - funnily enough I didn’t really buy them for the plate, I prefer a high stack and a highly cushioned feel so I went with these and they just happen to also have a carbon plate - Iv ran 3 park runs in them and I have run my fasted times in a v long time, has the shoe helped 🤷♀️ who knows but I simply love they way they feel so that’s good enough for me 💚
Intro on point!!!!……if you don’t want advances, let’s all go back to running barefoot on gravel paths and tracks. As you put it so well, technology helps us in every facet of life, running included.
Such helpful information. Not sure I need the race day gain for the price and negative impact to my Achilles Hearing from On Cloud directly was great. Thanks again
My daily training is done with heavier running shoes but for race week and race day I unleash my carbon shoes PUMA Deviate Nitro Elite!!!! Fantastic racing shoes, the best carbon shoes IMO.
I have tried a few different plated shoes and never really managed to get on with them. All my best times are actually in lightweight daily trainers. But I suppose we are all different!
Wow, great information, just about five months to late 😂… waited a long time to try my Hoka’s and Saucony’s carbon super shoes… I used four pairs of shoes two traditional and two Carbon… for my training for my Ironman… found the Saucony carbon very fast and good for half marathon distance. The Hoka carbon was better for me for the Full Marathon distance…. Still only wear the carbon for racing, my calf / achilles felt a little inflamed, but with proper massage, strength work and rest… Best video produced yet.👍👍💪🙏🥂
Just orderd my first Vaporflys. As a realtive beginner to running I dont think I can fully utilise the shoes but fun to try it out. I believe the users need good cardio fitness to keep up with the increased speed and fit within an ideal weight to gain all the benifits of the carbon plate .
When I first looked at carbon shoes I of course tried the Nike VF as that was all the buzz. I felt completely unstable and choose the Saucony as it felt more stable for me. Thankfully the running store mentioned that it is best to use them only for a few sessions and race day. Their reasoning had more to do with cabin shoes not lasting as many miles. Hearing about the potential achilles impact makes me glad I only break them out for certain runs.
I think there are some that stand up better than others....and most companies have gone to lengths to make their shoes last longer. Some of the carbon racers I've seen in reviews recently can stand up fairly well for up to 500 km.
@@chrisgilligan4968I agree with you. I'm testing extensively the most popular ones and I've reached already 600km using the Saucony Endorphin Pro 2. In 26 years of running, I've never gone that far in any other pair of shoes.
So I bought the Saucony Endorphine Pro but got some issues with my calfs and hamstrings after running a 10k . I have also bought the Nike vaporfly 4% but have not had time to test them. But I really love running in Endorphine Pro compared to Triumph ISO. I will therefore work on my strength in a nearby gym to be able to run in the carbons 2023
I think it’s fair enough that we’ve moved to shoes with carbon plates. It’s little over 5 years since Adidas shoes with their Boost foam held a bunch of records, so why would that be valid and a carbon plate not be valid? I have suspicions around World Athletics publishing rules that exactly matched the shoes that Nike were producing but that’s a different topic
Every runner is different. I'm happy with my Adidas Takumi Sen 8 (no carbon fibre, but thinner more flexible fiberglass rod's in the front half and superfoam). I'm a mid foot striker, and have a high cadence, and short stride. I've had plenty of stiffer Shoe's, carbon and non carbon (without much super foam), and found they loaded up some area's much more, reducing cadence and increasing stride length, but aggravated other area's through shock. I like some flex in the shoe. What is the fastest for my running style, I'm not sure, but what I do know is MOST shoe's simply do not work for my foot shape, where I get blisters. I always mix up my running shoe rotation, but do have my favorites, mostly linked to comfort, but somehow uncomfortable is always slow.
I bought the Saucony Endorphin Pro 3 as an average runner. I was extremely happy and excited to receive them. They feel so comfortable, absolutely felt the difference from my Brooks shoes. BUT My ankles and cavs hurts a lot after every run, something I never had wearing my Brooks, I can't figure out what is going on.
I really love running in my Endrophin Pro 2's but I thought better, as the video and the studies suggests, to run them on faster days or races. Just run and rotate your shoes!
Super informative - don‘t think I will ever get a pair of Carbonshoes (due to no matching product for heavyweight runner just searching for a supportive long run / Ironman shoe) but if ever…
Just like the most advanced sports cars need the best tires for grip at the end of the day the runner still has to put in the effort to run the race and they need the internal engine. I absolutely loved the Nike alpha fly next percent. Had ran my 3 or 4th ever timed 10 k on my Apple Watch started out run slow but finished at around 6:16 per mile pace :) looking to improve on that time soon as races are right around the corner 🙏🏽 Any suggestions on really good socks for running? Also do you all like arm sleeves???
I picked the first one I tried, wanted to try some Hoka carbon x to see if I noticed the difference. As an average/slow runner, didn’t notice the difference, so not a responder. Will have to brake the bank and get a selection…
When i was working on my very 1st HM back in 2020, i picked up the NB RCelite v1. It might be a placebo, but for similar HR effort, im faster in RC over my other non plated shoes ie Rebel v1, Clifton6, Boston9. Since then i picked up VF2 and AF1 on good deal. Each of these carbon racers felt different. So far my leg feels less beaten up in AF1, but the other 2 are close as fast. Though now i use my RC as threshold/speed work shorter distance runs while the other 2 more for longer tempo runs n race
I wont for one that looked nice, fit well and was affordable. I think as an average person it's realistically not even possible for me to spend the money needed to complete all of the testing you talked about. Besides, wouldn't the testing have always been the answer for pros which is why all that high tech kit exists? A few of my friends have bought into the Nike %2 though and they've ran faster splits without changing anything else. It reminded me of the half time talk in the first SpaceJam movie.
Anyone that was on the cusp on a championship place for London marathon will know their worth after the qualifying time dropped from 2:45 to 2:40. I would be surprised if GFA time will also reduce as more hobby runners are using the shoes
I've managed to get three pairs of carbon shoes each for around £100 because of discount on old models. I've hovered over Nikes at £150 but I just don't have the speed right now to merit it. The hokas I have all last hundreds of miles. Buying even £150 nike vaporflys that will max at 200 miles would be fun I'm sure but makes no sense running over 1.5 hour half marathons 😎 Maybe if I'm looking close to sub 3:30 marathon condition next year I might get some race day vapors 🤪 I also don't have any trail shoes with carbon soles (yet-not sure its really a thing) so about half my runs are without carbon.
If you look at the data, Hokas carbon shoes are nearly imperceptibly more efficient from it’s non carbon plated counterpart buying the carbon Hokas is a waste of money, if you want the experience to of an actual carbon racer than buy the ASICS meta speed sky’s, Vaporfly next%, Alphafly next% (the Nike shoes are on sale most places), Adidas also offers some great options.
@@carternorsym9362 don't discount comfort. I personally wouldn't use the Hokas either, but at that price point they're still a big step up from a normal running shoe
The marketing departments of shoe manufacturers are very happy to talk about running efficiency and very reluctant to talk about speed advantages. A 4% better running efficiency suggests that you run 4% faster, which is false and misleading. As an average runner, I would be more interested in how much faster you run, for example, over 10km compared to normal competition shoes. Interestingly, this information is very difficult to find. Does anyone know independent scientific studies about the speed advantages?
Efficiency has everything to do with how fast you run past 60 meters. The longer you go, the more that is a factor. You only have so much in your anaerobic battery. All the training we do is to extend the work rate before you reach that. We will all reach a point where we max volume so gains can be further gleaned by drills to improve efficiency, and again with a shoe that helps that by deffering a bit of fatigue.
Would be good to touch on the frequency and timing of the energy return from different shoes and the prospects of eventual personal customisation to optimise these factors. I feel a lot of similar videos ignore issues with lateral stability in many supershoes and the need to combine shoe familiarisation with targeted strength & conditioning to protect against injury. Having tested over 20 people in super shoes, all triathlon age groupers or advanced marathon runners, it is apparent that there are running economy benefits in most but equally biomechanical compromises which enhance the risk of injury. Much of the potential benefit is also wasted as it is not delivered appropriately for particular running styles leading to, for example, greater vertical oscillation rather than forward propulsion.
I hope I can buy one of these. I run all my shoes without carbon on them I use my old shoes until they break before I buy new ones. I can stand barefoot running.
I started with the Nike carbons and loved them although they felt squishy, then tried the Hoka Carbon X and hated them not comfortable at all. Might just go back to natural foam shoes instead
It would take a while for me to adapt but yes. Im currently training for stafford 70.3 again my second go. First time I had problems due to my Agrophobia but kept going and did it all the same
I bought a set of carbon shoes to run in this past summer. I choose them based on my stride. Seemed to make the most sense. Probably still got the wrong ones but who knows. I got a set from underarmour. The Hovr Machina 2. They held up to 600 miles, real troopers. I ran in them every day though. Having said that, the next pair I bought, certainly don't have a plate
@@gtn I do in some ways, but I value my connection with the ground, and without the plate, I feel more connected to the ground. I MIGHT buy a pair with plates for races but that's after a couple of good sets of trail shoes too, so low priority. I’m training hyrox and pushing/pulling sleds and the plates pull my shoes off my heel when I push on my toes.
I started going through the study. But I stopped the moment I noticed that some of the shoes that they were using in the study were at least 1-2 iterations behind what we are currently at. For me, that basically means the study is no longer valid since it’s using shoe Iterations that are so old, you basically can’t even find them on the market anymore. Don’t try to compare a new balance RC elite first iteration to an Alfafly. We have RC elite V3 is now coming out.
You do realize how studies work, right? Obviously they can't use the latest or greatest shoes - they aren't available at the time of testing. Plus the study has to be written, peer reviewed etc.
Let me clarify what I meant. Depending on your reasoning for looking over this study, this study could still be useful. (I prefer meta-analysis. But oh well) If you’re checking it for the purposes of figuring out whether or not carbon fiber plated shoes on average do have a performance benefit, then this study is useful. If only 2 of 9(?) didn’t show a performance advantage, then the odds are good that most carbon fiber plated shoes do you have an advantage. However, I think that’s pretty well known at this point. Sort of common knowledge. If you were looking at this study to check if you could just go buy any Carbon fiber plated racing shoe, and be set, this study is still useful. Because, as evidenced by this study, some carbon fiber plated racing shoes are not as good as others. In fact, some do not show any sort of advantage. So, you will want to research first to pick the right one for you. However, if like me, you opened up the study to see which shoes specifically did not actually supply an advantage so that you could make sure not to waste money on those specific shoes, this study is not helpful. There is next to zero percent chance of accidentally buying one of those two models of shoes by accident, unless you’re shopping in a shoe museum. ( I’m being hyperbolic, but I hope you get my point.) By the time we are seeing this study it’s good for a general understanding of carbon fiber plated racing shoe efficacy and performance. But the specifics on what models or even brands, are so out of date that it’s useless information. I’ve noticed that most shoe companies (unlike Apple) actually make legitimate changes in each year’s models. Unless they feel that it’s pretty dialed in already. And I’d imagine that whatever shoe companies got word back that their shoes were not actually causing performance benefits, hopped on that immediately for the next iteration of the shoes. I guess I’m just saying (in a very long rant) if you tried to apply the information that you got in this study to your choice in carbon fiber plated racing shoe available now, you could be making a mistake. Because the shoes in the study may be nothing like the newer iteration of that same model of shoe. And the issues with efficacy for performance may have been resolved between now and then.
I'm so CONFUSED! 😅🤣. Days of researching this stuff and still no wiser. I'm a serious age group triathlete (sprint and standard), competing at decent level and want the fastest shoe for race days. I don't have access or means for full laboratory testing (!) so how do I get the right shoe??
I bought my first carbon shoe and the difference is unbelievable. My long runs are faster and easier than my mid length runs and my recovery is a fraction. I was mind blown on the performance difference. They do feel weird at first and are a little unstable but worth every penny.
@@gtn I've been running for some 55 years, 100K/week for the last 40 years, owned kazillion shoes, and just have to say... the On Cloudmonster is one of the best shoes I've ever had. The first pair I bought a couple of years ago I still use. There is minimal wear anywhere even though they have about 1600 kms on them. They are comfortable and a very easy shoe to love. My only complaint is that I got them half a size too big...
@@76Aston Jup, I have at least 1000km on my On-Running shoes and they still work great. My Asics did fall apart after a lot less than that, and so did my Salomon trail shoes. Their mesh is just much much better.
Things to think about for sure. Will I try a carbon shoe? I thinking I will not pick the best one. Vanity will make me pick the nicest looking one for my kit and if I can look a little better on Strava. The final results will be the person in the shoe to really get the benefits.
@@gtn i am new to running barefoot but i absolutely love it. Altho i probably will wear super shoes for races still, until my body gets used to barefoot completely
We dont see enough of Heather on this channel, triathlon is a sport for women too, the fact there are 2 male presenters (not for the first time) and only 1 female suggests GTN doesnt deem all triathletes are equal
Hi Mathieu, thanks for the comment. Heather is great isn't she! We feel we do show both sides of triathlon fairly, there is some amazing heather content to come soon. The boys were in Kona and Heather been cooking up some great videos at home 🙌
@@kierenkd True, but I just don't worry about that. I have a lot of nice races in my area that don't require qualification times (Flying Pig, Indy, Columbus, etc.)
I tried a pair. The foot angle was different then my usual sneakers. Was not comfortable. The store basically talked me out of getting the carbon sneakers. Maybe I should go to another store😂
A bit sad that running also becomes a gear show. I always thought of running as one of the purest sports, in the sense that anyone can compete, no matter of the financial status, but looks like I'm wrong.
Ask a 1000 athletes and you'll get a 1000 answers! Mark I do believe is right with the marketing: it can arguably 'mask' what athletes need over what they wish / aspire for?
@@gtnHi GTN 👋 Always had the original Adidas Boston series, until it ate an all you can eat buffet a couple of years ago! Not impressed sadly, so tried the Saucony Endorphin range......just couldn't quite " get away with them" . More frustration. Cue now the Puma nitro and Hoka Mach 5 are my new trusted trainers. Neutral cushioning, good fit, sensible £, I do value comfort, support, response over carbon hype. As you rightly point out GTN, they will have a place for some athletes, just not quite right for me. Cheers, Graham.
Attack the purity of running? Seriously? Cycling is much worse, having top of the line bike does make a huge difference. Let the pros have standardized bike like japanese keirin race then we’ll see.
Ah, runners. Why not just put springs in them. Joke sport. Amateurs breaking records with super shoes 😆. BTW, those studies cited have very low statistical power. Finally I think his most important point is all this shoe support will only make your intrinsic foot muscles and Achilles tendon weaker over time. Then you're stuck wearing their product and suddenly the Shoe company has a life long customer. It's a genius really!
As an average runner, I thought I wouldn't gain too much advantage with my VFNext% but every time I wear them, I'm consistently running at 15-20sec faster per km for the same effort. The VFs took me to a new 10k PR off the bike and a standalone half marathon PR. Definitely worth it, IMO
Curious thoughts. It shows you care about your time, not your ability or the journey to improve. If a shoe gives you a better time, you haven't gotten better, you've simply moved your goalpost and look better on Strava. An ego boost..... saying that, I think I'll buy some 😅
@@user-nc3rc7sk9p I would train in my daily trainers and run in the race shoes
@@user-nc3rc7sk9p not really curious.
If you are racing you want to give yourself every opportunity possible to perform. Otherwise you would turn up on race day hungover and ride the bike leg on a BMX
@@user-nc3rc7sk9p It's certainly an ego boost but isn't it the same as wearing a TT helmet? Or running a disc wheel? We leave the "fast" stuff for race day for marginal gains whilst continuing to improve ourselves during the process using daily gear?
Great to hear Michael. Great that they work for you!
James really has gotten a lot better at this kind of video - definitely seems more comfortable and fluent presenting now!
This is one of the best running videos I've ever seen. Really. Such good, objective information.
I recently got the Kiprun KD900X, Decathlon's carbon shoes. They cost 149€, so withing my usual budget for a regular shoe. I'm not going to detail the specs but it's a proper "super shoe", very lightweight, high stack, finely tuned foam and carbon plate of course. I am mostly a trail runner, I only run in the road for triathlons (Olympic distance) and a few races (10K, half marathon). Anyway I've been training on the track with them and I am getting good results, I'm definitely faster for the same effort. But unlike the video explains I don't feel like I get an "energy return", what I feel that I get with them is a solid stable base where the energy transfer from foot to ground is very efficient. I am slowly adding them in some key sessions in preparation for Barcelona's Marathon next year, my first marathon, that's why I got them.
Slowly getting used to your new shoes is key to success. Also it's important to alternate the shoes you use, some with a lower stack that strengthen your feet, some with more stack for longer runs, etc. If you run regularly having two pairs of shoes has many advantages. And your shoes will last longer because you give the foam more time to recover it's shape.
Awesome video James. Vincent Luis mentioned a similar thing in a Sweat Elite video. He said he doesn’t wear carbon shoes too much. Save them for racing to really feel the extra boost. He was doing a 30k tempo session in Nike pegasus. He said with non-carbon shoes you strengthen more the foot and specilly big toe propulsion. I usually only wear my Hoka Rocket X’s for racing or race simulations but I see lots of beginners on easy runs wearing Vaporfly’s, I am sure this video will help a lot of them 🙌🏻
Thanks for the comment Albert, glad you enjoyed the video. 🙌
For years I have done most of my running in barefoot shoes. I've tried a few carbon plate shoes and generally do not like the spongy feel of them - but I've found some that I can live with. They are undoubtedly fast and are first choice for most races. Best to mix it up in training in my opinion, so I'll wear the super shoes, barefoot shoes and flats
I also wear barefoot. What carbon plates shoes are u wearing?
This ON representative was so honest about carbon running shoes that I will now look into the ON brand. Great Video.
ON shoes are amazing. Not even sponsored by them or anything but switching to them both got me faster and kept me injury free. Not sure why but they just fit me right.
I had ASICS and Nike before. Nike always got me injured. ASICS were just slow. But ON is the ticket for me.
ASICS and Nike come out as the top fastest shoes (also depicted in how many recreational Ironman athletes use them)
@@stefanomaiorana5713
ASICS is one of the worst shoes I have ever tried and many of my running friends agree. With Nike if you don't spend over $200 you end up with horrible quality running shoes.
I'm a slow runner(27' 5K,56' 10K,2:06' HM) and personal i feel a litle ''push'' with a carbon plated shoe at paces faster than 5':00''/K,now i have the endorphin speed 2 after testing 4 saucony models because i felt it better in my foot
Have they helped?
@@Sundownerrr I can't tell for sure because as i train my times improve.Also when i was running at high school we don't have this modern equipment although we were good runners
Have not always like the generalizations made on some science in recent pieces, but I must say this video was really well done. Take a bow for this one. Good on you for bringing in a non dramatic expert (albeit from a brand) as well.
Thanks Marc, glad you enjoyed it 🙌
I trail run in low stack, zero drop Topos because I like the ground feedback but they always remind me I need to work on foot strength. I road run in nylon Saucony endorphin speed for training and longer races in the carbon endorphin pro. What I found is that the tall stack light upper pros really don't like sharp corners so choose your courses but I had about equivalent fatigue at 35km in my Pros as I had at 30km in the Speeds for the same pace on the same course (Vanc Marathon). I think the carbon helps more as you tire and your form gets worse. I also think it's good to train in the matching non-carbon shoe as it rides in a similar way so you'll get the carbon benefit for races but keep your feet strong. When I bought them both pairs were 50% off so I bought them as a matched set.
For me I find the shape of the shoe key and the aggressive rocker I get from some of these shoes is great for race day.
I got the Vaporfly Next % and the Alphafly Next % 1 because they were on discount. I don't know whether I am a responder or not. I raced some shorter road races (10, 11, and 14km) but this was not long after getting back into running. None of the times beat my racing flat times from 6 years earlier. The true test will be when I'm at full fitness to see whether I can beat my PB's and maybe do some comparisons against racing flats (with equal fitness). I feel like racing flats can injure you with the lack of cushion but that may be because I'm in my 40s. I feel the extra padding in the carbon shoes is what reduces the chance of injury.
I’m a short distance jogger who have not jogged for over 6 years. I bought a Nike Fly with carbon plate and notice right away these are not normal shoes. They propel me forward they force me to run faster even when I feel I should slow sown. The spring feeling underneath feels like a trampoline its cushy. Its a n interesting experience. On my first run I just wanted to keep running end up doing a marathon. It hurt like hell next day
So good you couldn't stop 😂
@@gtn the price tag compelled me 😉
Started with the first iteration of Hoka's carbon rockets and they were great. Switched to Hoka Carbon X3 when they were worn out and to be fair they were just not doing it for me. The shoe felt heavy and slow (times showed they were still pretty fast). Made the move to Asics Metaspeed and they made a huge difference, felt comfortable and they are fast. I only use them for races or the occasional track training but I love them.
Great to hear you've tried a few and found what works for you! 😄
The Carbon X3 is not really a lightweight racer. It’s a big heavy Frankenstein mashup between a max cush and a carbon plated springboard.
I’ve only tried it on and passed 😅
Got a feeling ON Running has something to do with this video...
I think the actual benefit kicks in when we get comfortable in them, understand the biomechanical advantage it provides, and adjust the technique based on the shoes material.
Great video and thanks for the link to the paper too. I guess the one thing they cannot quantify is the effect that these shoes have on fatigue reduction. Much more emphasis on this metric for the marathon runners but its that softer foam that still has energy return. Cheers! 😊
Great point James 🙌
Exactly, not all the carbon plated shoes are the same as the plate has to work in combination with the foam, in order to stabilize it during the striding phase. I've tested the most popular ones that use PEBAX foam (85% of energy return) at the running track (5x1km) and, so far, Puma Deviate Nitro Elite V.1 are the fastest (but probably very difficult to wear in T2). I must admit though, some shoes like the Saucony Endorphin Pro 3 and the Nike Alphafly V.1 (in the study mentioned they are the ones which outperform the other shoes in terms of running economy), although are slower, it seems they keep my legs less tired after the workout. Feel free to take a look at my channel and watch my tests.
Injured for months after 10k race in carbon shoes (after a few speed sessions and 5k time trail with no problems) and had to miss the HM race I'd trained 9 months for. Wish I'd not tried saving a few seconds!!
I wear them mainly because the cushioning is better in them I find, which is good for not totally destroying your knees and legs.
I definitely went from a normal running shoe to a carbon shoe for a half marathon race and got calf injuries and haven’t been able to run the same again since
Sorry to hear that!
Great video, full of useful content and practical info 👏👏👏
Thanks Marco! Glad you found it useful 🙌
As a very average runner I bought my 1st carbon plate shoe only a few weeks back (new balance fuel cell sc) and i absolutely love them - funnily enough I didn’t really buy them for the plate, I prefer a high stack and a highly cushioned feel so I went with these and they just happen to also have a carbon plate - Iv ran 3 park runs in them and I have run my fasted times in a v long time, has the shoe helped 🤷♀️ who knows but I simply love they way they feel so that’s good enough for me 💚
Agree
Intro on point!!!!……if you don’t want advances, let’s all go back to running barefoot on gravel paths and tracks. As you put it so well, technology helps us in every facet of life, running included.
Thanks
Such helpful information. Not sure I need the race day gain for the price and negative impact to my Achilles
Hearing from On Cloud directly was great. Thanks again
Great content guys ;)
Thanks for watching!
My daily training is done with heavier running shoes but for race week and race day I unleash my carbon shoes PUMA Deviate Nitro Elite!!!! Fantastic racing shoes, the best carbon shoes IMO.
Love the locations around Bath including Odd Down!
I have tried a few different plated shoes and never really managed to get on with them. All my best times are actually in lightweight daily trainers. But I suppose we are all different!
Whatever works for you Tom! Thanks for watching 😃
Wow, great information, just about five months to late 😂… waited a long time to try my Hoka’s and Saucony’s carbon super shoes… I used four pairs of shoes two traditional and two Carbon… for my training for my Ironman… found the Saucony carbon very fast and good for half marathon distance. The Hoka carbon was better for me for the Full Marathon distance…. Still only wear the carbon for racing, my calf / achilles felt a little inflamed, but with proper massage, strength work and rest… Best video produced yet.👍👍💪🙏🥂
Sounds great Jeffrey 👌 Thanks for watching. How did the Ironman go?
Just orderd my first Vaporflys. As a realtive beginner to running I dont think I can fully utilise the shoes but fun to try it out. I believe the users need good cardio fitness to keep up with the increased speed and fit within an ideal weight to gain all the benifits of the carbon plate .
Vaporfly lasts 3 runs😇
200 - 250 miles. Races only.
When I first looked at carbon shoes I of course tried the Nike VF as that was all the buzz. I felt completely unstable and choose the Saucony as it felt more stable for me. Thankfully the running store mentioned that it is best to use them only for a few sessions and race day. Their reasoning had more to do with cabin shoes not lasting as many miles. Hearing about the potential achilles impact makes me glad I only break them out for certain runs.
I think there are some that stand up better than others....and most companies have gone to lengths to make their shoes last longer. Some of the carbon racers I've seen in reviews recently can stand up fairly well for up to 500 km.
@@chrisgilligan4968I agree with you. I'm testing extensively the most popular ones and I've reached already 600km using the Saucony Endorphin Pro 2. In 26 years of running, I've never gone that far in any other pair of shoes.
Great video super interesting and brill delivery
Best carbon shoe video I’ve watched… thanks
So I bought the Saucony Endorphine Pro
but got some issues with my calfs and hamstrings after running a 10k .
I have also bought the Nike vaporfly 4% but have not had time to test them.
But I really love running in Endorphine Pro compared to Triumph ISO.
I will therefore work on my strength in a nearby gym to be able to run in the carbons 2023
Keep up the good work Martin🙌
When are the ON shoes that were shown being released?
I think it’s fair enough that we’ve moved to shoes with carbon plates. It’s little over 5 years since Adidas shoes with their Boost foam held a bunch of records, so why would that be valid and a carbon plate not be valid? I have suspicions around World Athletics publishing rules that exactly matched the shoes that Nike were producing but that’s a different topic
Every runner is different. I'm happy with my Adidas Takumi Sen 8 (no carbon fibre, but thinner more flexible fiberglass rod's in the front half and superfoam). I'm a mid foot striker, and have a high cadence, and short stride. I've had plenty of stiffer Shoe's, carbon and non carbon (without much super foam), and found they loaded up some area's much more, reducing cadence and increasing stride length, but aggravated other area's through shock. I like some flex in the shoe. What is the fastest for my running style, I'm not sure, but what I do know is MOST shoe's simply do not work for my foot shape, where I get blisters. I always mix up my running shoe rotation, but do have my favorites, mostly linked to comfort, but somehow uncomfortable is always slow.
Great vid guys 👍
Glad you enjoyed it 🙌
I bought the Saucony Endorphin Pro 3 as an average runner. I was extremely happy and excited to receive them. They feel so comfortable, absolutely felt the difference from my Brooks shoes. BUT My ankles and cavs hurts a lot after every run, something I never had wearing my Brooks, I can't figure out what is going on.
Pain in calves can be due to difference in heel drop difference?
Pain in ankles due to instability of the shoes.
@@GTE_Channel The sboes isn't fit to size for me, I need a half inch bigger size. Maybe that's why.
I really love running in my Endrophin Pro 2's but I thought better, as the video and the studies suggests, to run them on faster days or races. Just run and rotate your shoes!
Great to hear! Glad we could help 🙌
Super informative - don‘t think I will ever get a pair of Carbonshoes (due to no matching product for heavyweight runner just searching for a supportive long run / Ironman shoe) but if ever…
Just like the most advanced sports cars need the best tires for grip at the end of the day the runner still has to put in the effort to run the race and they need the internal engine. I absolutely loved the Nike alpha fly next percent. Had ran my 3 or 4th ever timed 10 k on my Apple Watch started out run slow but finished at around 6:16 per mile pace :) looking to improve on that time soon as races are right around the corner 🙏🏽
Any suggestions on really good socks for running?
Also do you all like arm sleeves???
yes its a big difference running in them,but just wait for the discounts when the new versions are released
I picked the first one I tried, wanted to try some Hoka carbon x to see if I noticed the difference. As an average/slow runner, didn’t notice the difference, so not a responder. Will have to brake the bank and get a selection…
When i was working on my very 1st HM back in 2020, i picked up the NB RCelite v1.
It might be a placebo, but for similar HR effort, im faster in RC over my other non plated shoes ie Rebel v1, Clifton6, Boston9.
Since then i picked up VF2 and AF1 on good deal.
Each of these carbon racers felt different. So far my leg feels less beaten up in AF1, but the other 2 are close as fast. Though now i use my RC as threshold/speed work shorter distance runs while the other 2 more for longer tempo runs n race
If there are no rules for running shoes on Kona, can I just take some kangoo-shoes from the 80’s ? 😊
May i ask what model of the shoe in your hand ? Thank you
Just make sure that strength training is performed for the feet as well as the rest of the body.
in my opinion the biggest impact on performance is psycological. They have effects for shure which aren’t psycological, too.
I’ve been paying ~$130 for my VF Next%2’s and getting >300 mi out of them. Straight up reasonable.
Thoughts on Carbon vs Nylon plates?
Me? Alphafly Next %. I am a tall guy, relative low cadence: 175. Luckily chosen the right one for me. I am a responder.😊
I wont for one that looked nice, fit well and was affordable. I think as an average person it's realistically not even possible for me to spend the money needed to complete all of the testing you talked about. Besides, wouldn't the testing have always been the answer for pros which is why all that high tech kit exists?
A few of my friends have bought into the Nike %2 though and they've ran faster splits without changing anything else. It reminded me of the half time talk in the first SpaceJam movie.
Anyone that was on the cusp on a championship place for London marathon will know their worth after the qualifying time dropped from 2:45 to 2:40. I would be surprised if GFA time will also reduce as more hobby runners are using the shoes
I've managed to get three pairs of carbon shoes each for around £100 because of discount on old models. I've hovered over Nikes at £150 but I just don't have the speed right now to merit it. The hokas I have all last hundreds of miles. Buying even £150 nike vaporflys that will max at 200 miles would be fun I'm sure but makes no sense running over 1.5 hour half marathons 😎 Maybe if I'm looking close to sub 3:30 marathon condition next year I might get some race day vapors 🤪 I also don't have any trail shoes with carbon soles (yet-not sure its really a thing) so about half my runs are without carbon.
I got the Hoka pair at 2:08 reduced to £69.99 so I feel like they are worth it when you look at all of the prices!
If you look at the data, Hokas carbon shoes are nearly imperceptibly more efficient from it’s non carbon plated counterpart buying the carbon Hokas is a waste of money, if you want the experience to of an actual carbon racer than buy the ASICS meta speed sky’s, Vaporfly next%, Alphafly next% (the Nike shoes are on sale most places), Adidas also offers some great options.
@@carternorsym9362 don't discount comfort. I personally wouldn't use the Hokas either, but at that price point they're still a big step up from a normal running shoe
Very informative
Slap some Stryd on your normal shoes and carbonplated shoes. Run at a set amount of watts and see which shoe will get you further
The marketing departments of shoe manufacturers are very happy to talk about running efficiency and very reluctant to talk about speed advantages. A 4% better running efficiency suggests that you run 4% faster, which is false and misleading. As an average runner, I would be more interested in how much faster you run, for example, over 10km compared to normal competition shoes. Interestingly, this information is very difficult to find. Does anyone know independent scientific studies about the speed advantages?
Efficiency has everything to do with how fast you run past 60 meters. The longer you go, the more that is a factor. You only have so much in your anaerobic battery. All the training we do is to extend the work rate before you reach that. We will all reach a point where we max volume so gains can be further gleaned by drills to improve efficiency, and again with a shoe that helps that by deffering a bit of fatigue.
Would be good to touch on the frequency and timing of the energy return from different shoes and the prospects of eventual personal customisation to optimise these factors. I feel a lot of similar videos ignore issues with lateral stability in many supershoes and the need to combine shoe familiarisation with targeted strength & conditioning to protect against injury. Having tested over 20 people in super shoes, all triathlon age groupers or advanced marathon runners, it is apparent that there are running economy benefits in most but equally biomechanical compromises which enhance the risk of injury. Much of the potential benefit is also wasted as it is not delivered appropriately for particular running styles leading to, for example, greater vertical oscillation rather than forward propulsion.
I hope I can buy one of these. I run all my shoes without carbon on them I use my old shoes until they break before I buy new ones. I can stand barefoot running.
Well done, love that you mentioned potential disadvantages of the carbon plate
It's all about balance, Do you use carbon shoes?
I started with the Nike carbons and loved them although they felt squishy, then tried the Hoka Carbon X and hated them not comfortable at all.
Might just go back to natural foam shoes instead
Could you stop using carbon shoes?
It would take a while for me to adapt but yes. Im currently training for stafford 70.3 again my second go. First time I had problems due to my Agrophobia but kept going and did it all the same
I bought a set of carbon shoes to run in this past summer. I choose them based on my stride. Seemed to make the most sense. Probably still got the wrong ones but who knows. I got a set from underarmour. The Hovr Machina 2. They held up to 600 miles, real troopers. I ran in them every day though. Having said that, the next pair I bought, certainly don't have a plate
Do you miss having the plate? Will you go back? 🤔
@@gtn I do in some ways, but I value my connection with the ground, and without the plate, I feel more connected to the ground. I MIGHT buy a pair with plates for races but that's after a couple of good sets of trail shoes too, so low priority. I’m training hyrox and pushing/pulling sleds and the plates pull my shoes off my heel when I push on my toes.
One thing for sure zoomx foam is the best.
I bought my carbon hoka because they were 2/3 discounted (only few sizes) and my size included. Wow I was lucky. Never would have bought them at $A399
I started going through the study. But I stopped the moment I noticed that some of the shoes that they were using in the study were at least 1-2 iterations behind what we are currently at. For me, that basically means the study is no longer valid since it’s using shoe Iterations that are so old, you basically can’t even find them on the market anymore. Don’t try to compare a new balance RC elite first iteration to an Alfafly. We have RC elite V3 is now coming out.
You do realize how studies work, right? Obviously they can't use the latest or greatest shoes - they aren't available at the time of testing. Plus the study has to be written, peer reviewed etc.
@@driventomadness117 I’m aware. But just because they take multiple years to be done doesn’t mean that I have to utilize out of date information
Let me clarify what I meant. Depending on your reasoning for looking over this study, this study could still be useful. (I prefer meta-analysis. But oh well)
If you’re checking it for the purposes of figuring out whether or not carbon fiber plated shoes on average do have a performance benefit, then this study is useful. If only 2 of 9(?) didn’t show a performance advantage, then the odds are good that most carbon fiber plated shoes do you have an advantage. However, I think that’s pretty well known at this point. Sort of common knowledge.
If you were looking at this study to check if you could just go buy any Carbon fiber plated racing shoe, and be set, this study is still useful. Because, as evidenced by this study, some carbon fiber plated racing shoes are not as good as others. In fact, some do not show any sort of advantage. So, you will want to research first to pick the right one for you.
However, if like me, you opened up the study to see which shoes specifically did not actually supply an advantage so that you could make sure not to waste money on those specific shoes, this study is not helpful.
There is next to zero percent chance of accidentally buying one of those two models of shoes by accident, unless you’re shopping in a shoe museum. ( I’m being hyperbolic, but I hope you get my point.)
By the time we are seeing this study it’s good for a general understanding of carbon fiber plated racing shoe efficacy and performance. But the specifics on what models or even brands, are so out of date that it’s useless information.
I’ve noticed that most shoe companies (unlike Apple) actually make legitimate changes in each year’s models. Unless they feel that it’s pretty dialed in already. And I’d imagine that whatever shoe companies got word back that their shoes were not actually causing performance benefits, hopped on that immediately for the next iteration of the shoes.
I guess I’m just saying (in a very long rant) if you tried to apply the information that you got in this study to your choice in carbon fiber plated racing shoe available now, you could be making a mistake. Because the shoes in the study may be nothing like the newer iteration of that same model of shoe. And the issues with efficacy for performance may have been resolved between now and then.
I'm so CONFUSED! 😅🤣. Days of researching this stuff and still no wiser. I'm a serious age group triathlete (sprint and standard), competing at decent level and want the fastest shoe for race days. I don't have access or means for full laboratory testing (!) so how do I get the right shoe??
Hey guys! Can you tell us where we can perform such lab test to get to choose the best shoe for us?
I bought my first carbon shoe and the difference is unbelievable. My long runs are faster and easier than my mid length runs and my recovery is a fraction. I was mind blown on the performance difference. They do feel weird at first and are a little unstable but worth every penny.
Great, they really can make a difference👌
On-RunnIng shoes are excellent! I see many people wearing them at airports now. They've become exponentially popular recently! 😎
They are great 🙌
@@gtn I've been running for some 55 years, 100K/week for the last 40 years, owned kazillion shoes, and just have to say... the On Cloudmonster is one of the best shoes I've ever had. The first pair I bought a couple of years ago I still use. There is minimal wear anywhere even though they have about 1600 kms on them. They are comfortable and a very easy shoe to love. My only complaint is that I got them half a size too big...
@@76Aston Jup, I have at least 1000km on my On-Running shoes and they still work great. My Asics did fall apart after a lot less than that, and so did my Salomon trail shoes. Their mesh is just much much better.
Super interesting
Thoughts on the Hoka Skyward X anyone?
Things to think about for sure. Will I try a carbon shoe? I thinking I will not pick the best one. Vanity will make me pick the nicest looking one for my kit and if I can look a little better on Strava. The final results will be the person in the shoe to really get the benefits.
Maybe go try one on and have feel for yourself, no pressure to take the plunge yet.
I’ve only now started the super shoe journey because new balance stopped making my beloved 1400 :(
Good luck! 🙌
Maybe it's just a placebo effect for an average runner like me. I owned a carbon plated shoe from NB, the RC Elite V2.
Did they work for you?
@@gtn somehow I ran faster with the same effort. Maybe it works, maybe...
I love the NB RC Elite V2
Wearing expensive carbon shoes as daily training = increase Pride (only) 😁
They make you very fast but ruins your feet. Running barefoot made me slow down a lot but no more foot pain
What do you prefer? 👀
@@gtn i am new to running barefoot but i absolutely love it. Altho i probably will wear super shoes for races still, until my body gets used to barefoot completely
We dont see enough of Heather on this channel, triathlon is a sport for women too, the fact there are 2 male presenters (not for the first time) and only 1 female suggests GTN doesnt deem all triathletes are equal
Hi Mathieu, thanks for the comment. Heather is great isn't she! We feel we do show both sides of triathlon fairly, there is some amazing heather content to come soon. The boys were in Kona and Heather been cooking up some great videos at home 🙌
So basically only if you can afford expensive shoes do you deserve to win now
What ON shoes are those in the video
I don't compete with anyone's race times but my own. The speed benefits of the expensive shoes are irrelevant to me.
If you need a qualifying time it becomes a bit more relevant as the goal posts move based on what others are doing
@@kierenkd True, but I just don't worry about that. I have a lot of nice races in my area that don't require qualification times (Flying Pig, Indy, Columbus, etc.)
ah nice so i don't need to lose all my weight!
I got the ones on sale. 😂
I tried a pair. The foot angle was different then my usual sneakers. Was not comfortable. The store basically talked me out of getting the carbon sneakers. Maybe I should go to another store😂
A bit sad that running also becomes a gear show. I always thought of running as one of the purest sports, in the sense that anyone can compete, no matter of the financial status, but looks like I'm wrong.
Ask a 1000 athletes and you'll get a 1000 answers! Mark I do believe is right with the marketing: it can arguably 'mask' what athletes need over what they wish / aspire for?
Have you tried carbon shoes?
@@gtnHi GTN 👋 Always had the original Adidas Boston series, until it ate an all you can eat buffet a couple of years ago! Not impressed sadly, so tried the Saucony Endorphin range......just couldn't quite " get away with them" . More frustration. Cue now the Puma nitro and Hoka Mach 5 are my new trusted trainers. Neutral cushioning, good fit, sensible £, I do value comfort, support, response over carbon hype. As you rightly point out GTN, they will have a place for some athletes, just not quite right for me. Cheers, Graham.
Are carbon plated shoes worth it? Yes! Are the even more expensive and lower performing On carbon plated shoes worth it? No!
They are an absolute necessity. They’re proven to take seconds off your miles.
Attack the purity of running? Seriously? Cycling is much worse, having top of the line bike does make a huge difference. Let the pros have standardized bike like japanese keirin race then we’ll see.
no
So overweight beginners get the most advantage 😏
MY FAVORITE RACING SHOES = Nike Vaporfly Next %2 . PERIOD END OF DISCUSSION 🏃🏃🏼♂️
I don't use them at all, no way I would fork out $250 for a pair of running sneakers....
You're channel is sponsored by a company that produces carbon shoes....🤷🏻♂️
Placebo effect 😇🏃🏼♂️🏃🏃🏼♂️🏃
Carbon shoes are ass gimmick
👎
Ah, runners. Why not just put springs in them. Joke sport. Amateurs breaking records with super shoes 😆. BTW, those studies cited have very low statistical power.
Finally I think his most important point is all this shoe support will only make your intrinsic foot muscles and Achilles tendon weaker over time. Then you're stuck wearing their product and suddenly the Shoe company has a life long customer. It's a genius really!