This is a crimp design with an o-ring seal. The integrity of the bond relies on the DUCTILITY of the copper as well as HOW the ring is protected. The manufacturer of these pro press fittings claims they can seal on M copper. 303.4 of the IPC says we need to trust the third-party certification agency to uphold the referenced standards. Referenced standards come from a group of engineers who crunch numbers, create theories and in some cases test. Those guys are human and can make mistakes. If you want my opinion, I agree with your Master Plumber. 1) It's a new technology still being perfected. Albeit a great invention. 2) Plumber error. Plain and simple. The plumber could have not cleaned or reamed the pipe well enough; Installed a dried out fitting; Or used a tool that was not performing right. 3) Though the manufacture says the fittings can hold the pressure on M copper, does not mean it's the best copper for the job.
This technology isn't new. It's been around since the 1980s. It's newer than copper sweat, of course. As to why it leaked, there's too many variables involved. Even taking the fitting apart might not tell you why. User error is likely, though.
I seen it happen but wen you don’t follow the manufacturer instructions and installation instructions that’s why is always recommended to mark the ens of each press
I just had my whole house water conditioning system installed with 1 1/4 progress fittings with copper and 3/4. Talked to the installer who has installed this water system in many homes over six years, and his company has never had a repair order to replace any progress fittings. BUT, he did mention that if the copper pipe needs to be adequately prepared, just like in solder preparation, the. propress fitting could weep or leak. IF the copper pipe is not cut properly and deburred, same as soldered fittings. Gettings right down to it, some plumpers rush their jobs to make a quick buck. Preparation is the key. Another thing my guy mentioned is if the progress fitting needs to be seated properly, it can cause a poor crimp. If the propress tool is not installed on the fitting properly, it can cause a leak.
Proper installation procedures are necessary on all types of connections. It should also be noted that all types of connections leak from time to time. With that said, propress has a far better "batting average" than just about any other type of connection I've ever seen.
I was going to say this very thing as well. If you cut copper and install it without deburring the copper chances are it will cut the rubber gasket causing the joint to weep... Or his tool needs to be recalibrated.
A down side of pro press is, there is no way to get a fitting off so the tubing would have to be cut and connected with a pro press coupling, which in some instances is not ideal. With a soldered fitting, it can simply be heated and removed. And with a shark bite it can just slip off with a release tool.
I was about to become a True Believer of these ProPress fittings enough to talk my boss into using it for refrigeration as well now completely changed my mind
I reworked my wholehouse well piping from the well tank, added three stage wholehouse filters, reconnected my water softener, added bypass to the filters and water softener all the way to my water heater. Been there for almost a year, none a single drop. I did not buy the propress gun, too expensive, I bought the manual crimping, I will be honest it was a little challenge in some areas due you need to manually crimp/press it but it worked great. I tried to solder my plumbing and in some areas I did but I am very bad doing it and did not want to pay at least 2k for labor + material cost to do all what I did.
You have to know the correct way to use the tool properly. It’s not DIY and pack up and go come. I sweat pipe as much as I can. Then I use pro press in hard to reach area. Also I don’t see any marking on the pipes. Plumber could have pro pressed and not have the copper in all the way.
It is very appealing not to have to bring out the torch and nitrogen when doing HVAC/R work, but I too am weary. Especially with HVAC pressures as high as they are and the vibration of equipment. I'm just going to braze for the next 5 - 10 years and give it time to see how all this press stuff works out.
Or the pipe wasn't fully pushed into the fitting. I've been using propress for the past 6 years and see far more solder joints leak and maybe 2 pressed leaking. I always cut the joint down the middle. No pushing the pipe passed the gasket is the problem.
I work as a Facilities Stationary Engineer. We have multiple issues/failures with Pro press fittings. Our policy is to braze or solder in fittings if at all possible. There are situations that we can't use open flames on our Facilities and press fittings are an asset. Key is prep work and the quality of the fittings.
Propress works. Just as good as solder. However, you must debur & sand the male end of your copper piping. When you attach a propress fitting, you mark the receiving end where the fitting and the copper pipe meet with a black permanent marker so that YOU will know that you've inserted the propress fitting completely onto the receiving copper line. I DID NOT SEE THIS ON YOUR VIDEO, meaning that it was operator error: bad install. That has nothing to do with the Viega propress fitting. Also, if a manual hydraulic propress was used, you MUST be very strong to create a proper seal. VERY STRONG. That's why the electric propress seals at 3000# of pressure and is the better tool to use industrially. Again, I saw no markings on the male end copper pipe which tells me that the operator who installed the propress fitting, did NOT use the fitting correctly nor did they follow instructions. This was a bang up job.
The type of plumber that is attracted to Propress couldn't solder well because he never did the cleaning, marking and deburring. You think he will suddenly find the time to do those things now that he has discovered what he sees as instant plumbing?
@@williardbillmore5713 💯. It's like the SharkBite fittings. If used correctly and not buried in walls they can work just as well as the soldered or glue fitting. I've only had one out of the five I've ever installed leaked. And that was because I was in a hurry, forgot to Deburring the pex pipe. ( It was a f*****-up location up under floor joists in a crawl space. Couldn't get the compression tool fit and I was afraid of catching the house on fire.)
Any style of connection if not executed correctly can leak. Pro-Press is not exempt from that. Solder is not exempt and Shark Bite is not exempt. My guess is that the pipe was not prepared properly or that the tool used is out of calibration. You should be able to check for proper crimping with a go no-go gauge.
You're 100% right. Every connection method needs the proper preparation in order to work as intended. This is exactly why sharbite gets a bad reputation. The installer can't just slap it on and expect it to work.
This is interesting at least. I personally haven't had any problems with ProPress but know of some that have. Generally speaking its the same 2 people... I would like to see the fitting cut in half. I want to know how it was put together . I'd like to know the brand too. Top of my head ,I didn't see where the copper was cleaned, there's NO sign of marking the depth of where the fitting is supposed to be , if it's that sloppy most likely they didn't ream the inside or chamfer the outside of the pipe. I would guess no formal training , which technically every plumber where I live has to take to legally work with any new machine or material. Doesn't mean they do ,but the warranty is void if we don't . I want to also mention I don't use it everywhere , I do use a lot of solder fittings AND I was anti ProPress until a few years ago. It's not new and the tools and fittings are expensive. It is a step above PEX though. I do believe a qualified/licensed plumber wouldn't have had these problems.
YO YO You actually filmed the issue. See the embossed / scribed print line. That is a huge no no to press onto. With basic pipe prep it would have never leaked. I recommend the fingernail test. You would have the same issue if soldered. With Press you need a smooth surface free from nicks scratched or etched print lines.
I’ve noticed on propress especially with the m18 if your using a 3amp hour battery and it gets about half way on battery life. It will not crimp hard enough. I noticed this on 2 inch press valve where the propress did not have the strength to press the metal. I recommend get higher amp batteries
My M18 won’t work if there’s not enough battery to make a complete press. Always carry extra batteries. I don’t use the old ,pre red lithium batteries on precision tools. Lights ,bandsaws are different..
I've watched dozens of professional plumbers on residential plumbing and every one of them except one....would do the absolute least amount of work possible and leave. I've often wondered if they even wiped after defecation, as it is an extra step in the process.
Type “M” copper tube is for domestic water - not drainage. DWV copper is for drainage. Pro Press works perfectly fine on Type “M” copper. I can see in this video that none of the copper was cleaned prior to the fittings being installed. This could be the problem here.
@@brucestorey917 I hate when people are so certain of what they’re saying but actually have no clue. I’ve worked in multiple states and Delaware was the only place I have worked where Type M was not to be used on domestic. Only for heating.
I'm glad I found your vid, thanks for posting it! I googled A LOT but only your video matches the exact case I have right now. 80% of the 20 or so fittings I did only 2 days ago in my bathroom refit are showing the same symptoms like yours. A little background - I rented a battery press tool - Novopress ACO103 + bought Pegler VSH Xpress 15mm & 22mm copper fittings. They have an Oring inside so I'd say very similar to what you have there. I deburred all my pipes (with Bahco 3/40mm deburrer), properly marked all fittings with a pen before insertion as per instructions, basically followed all the steps. I'm DIYing so I'm not an expert, but I watched as many tutorials as I could before tackling this job, and both the fitting specs, pipe manufacturer specs and presstool specs seem to check out. I just dont get it why this is happening. I'll try to contact the fitting manufacturer to see what they think, maybe its jaw calibration issue or maybe its the lubricant from the o-ring - I'm lost. In the two days not a single drop fell, but I can still see the same wet sheen and if I wipe with a piece of paper there's tiny wet marks. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, should I just cut it all out and redo the old fashioned way by soldering? Thanks!
I'm assuming it's all fixed by now, but when you originally wrote about this did you install on type M or type L copper pipe? What was your resolution?
I love my torch, but I've been doing this since the 60's . I just got talked into this a year ago,thankfully no problems. However I changed when a friend of mine that runs 6 trucks hit 3 years with NO call backs. I also went to a seminar by Viega and follow their rules fastidiously , Agreeing with others I didn't see any depth marks, so i have no idea if it backed out before crimping . Won't know if the pipe has been de-burred , cleaned or inserted all the way until the fittings been cut in half . No idea if he or she was a real plumber and been certified to use the tool. Basing this on a couple of drips says nothing about the workmanship at all. I'd want it cut in half to physically see what happened.
When the pipe is properly prepared and quality press tool and jaws are used by a competent and Licensed Plumber, leaks with pressing is very rare. Pressing is just as good as any other method of doing joints.
I fixed one on a 1” return line last week. It looked to have been a repair itself. It had two couplings on one side and evidence of a hanger having at one time (allthread rod hanging from the floor above just pointing at the spot) been on the area that I fixed. It was probably a regular steel hanger, because the pipe was sooooo hard to clean and remove all of the discoloration. I’d still rather try to press inside of an old house especially up there with all of that wood around it, than to see that house on the news in the morning. You just need to fix that.
Type m copper has the same outside diameter as type l. The seal for propress is the o-ring sealing on the outside wall of copper so you can use type m. If the pipe is not prepped properly it’s possible to nick the o-ring which would leak. Also inserting pipe into fitting to correct insertion depth is critical. I’ve used this system on domestic water, heating systems as well as natural gas with black iron and copper and it’s been bullet proof. Just like any connection soldering, brazing, grooved, MJ, threaded, etc., following proper procedure is crucial for successful leak free system. Good luck.
My 6 year old plumbing failed with this and 28 flats were 'upgraded.' Clearly the sides get full compression while the front and back get no compression at all. The toolhead should have segmented sections. I guess it is only a matter of time when the joints fail upstairs and I get flooded.
I have personally done hundreds of propress fittings and had zero leaks. I tested propress on my channel taking the orings OUT and it did not leak, proving the oring isnt even required for primary sealing. Propress leaks for 3 reasons, 1) failure to insert the fitting fully 2) NO prep of pipe, it needs to be cleaned deburred and chamfered 3) use of crappy fittings. I personally hate Viega as a company for business reasons but I will only use their fittings. The 3rd party fittings always seem to cause issues. Just my two cents
I’ve been seeing more pro press fitting pop off on social media. I’m sure it’s rare, but I don’t like the simple aspect that if I need to redo a propress section, you can’t sweat the fitting off. I’m also weary of copper in general from seeing so many pin hole leaks over my career. There’s a lot of reasons why that happens. Copper from to much pressure, not using the right thickness copper, not cleaning and deburring the copper before you solder it and water quality. In my new home build I’m going to stick to pex b because I’ve had great success with it. Thanks for the comment! 800k subscribers!! Congrats on that success. 🙂
Actually, that's exactly what I recommended to the client. Client called plumber, he came back and said it was fine. I was blown away by that response. Some people just don't care.
In looking at progress fitting failures, usually it is operator error. Looking at your video you can see what appears to be burn marks from the previous traditional install, fyi. The pipe “supported” by a downward leaning nail, the 45* copper pipe cut in half, and the lack of cleaning and depth marks on the male pipe ends leads me to believe this was installed incorrectly, maybe rushed, or not done by a licensed/knowledgeable plumber. I use scotch brite pads to clean (and polish if you will) the male ends while deburing the inside of the pipe. I also do this with shark bite fittings. Sand paper can cause small micro groves that leach out water under pressure. Think wood working, you always go up in grit so you make the scratches (sanding marks) smaller and smaller…to the point you don’t see or feel them. Prep is key! And making sure your tool is calibrated or still in calibration is very important as well as using a fully charged battery and the tool at 90* to your pipe fitting. When one of the puzzle pieces are not there, you get weeping and gnashing of teeth of biblical proportions….or at least you’ll feel that way. Another “thing” I do is use toilet paper to check for water leaks on all fittings with water pressure on. Toilet paper is extremely sensitive to any water and it is very easy to see. My fingers don’t feel as well as they use to and my eyes? In certain situations you just can see a small weeping leak. Just my $0.02 worth, hope it helps someone. And my tenants aren’t allowed to call service personnel (create a bill for the unit) only call me and I go check it out. If it is something I cannot fix, I call my trusted network of tradesman.
The insertion depths were not marked and it doesn’t look like the pipe was properly cleaned. Also, the o rings are lubricated and sometimes that oil can be squeezed out looking like a glimmer of water. Either way, I’ve seen cheap press fittings fail immediately. Use viega only, prep the pipe, and mark the insertion depth.
There was green residue on the pipes on the bottom if you look close enough. That usually means water reaction with the copper. When I did this video, the pipes were installed 3 months prior.
It’s them chines j.w fitting paired with m12 press tool I’ve seen that plenty and funny thing is for the most part it won’t ever actually form a drop but it don’t sit right with me if I use the m12 pro press I use viga fittings or m18 pro press for the j.w fittings
I have pressed at least 1500 fitting with no leaks - it is all in the prep and using Viega fitting not china knockoffs clean deburred pipe, I have been using the system since 2006 without any issues paid for itself in the first 3 jobs
I've had propress fittings leak on M copper. Usually on a well that is acidic or really old M copper. If it's either of those I'll usually just take the time and sweat fittings on now. If it's acidic I'll mention a neutralizer to the homeowner as well.
Type M copper refers to the wall thickness with type k being the thickest, type L medium, and type M being the thinnest wall. The OD's are the same for all types.
But for sure I have experienced looseness when fitting M pipe with fittings which I overcome by filling it with solder. And L is snug and K is tight needs a little extra sandcloth use. Mostly used L for propress. ?? Hardly ever use K in 21st century.
Master plumber is wrong about type M the person who did the job didn’t team outside of pipe and or didn’t get the fitting on the pipe past the rubber gasket I don’t see black marker marks.
Propress are like sharkbite fittings, goos in a pinch and for a quick fix if you can't turn the water off completely. But I trust my torch and 95/5 way more.
Why is it that plumbers will do almost anything not to solder pipes together? Propress, Pex, and Shark Bite seem like temporary DIY technologies that are not suited for permanent connections. My house was built 27 years ago with coppers pipes with soldered connections and we have never had leaks or burst connections. I replaced a stuck valve on the supply line of my water heater 15 years ago using copper and soldered connections and it has never leaked. The price of a propane torch, flux, solder, emery cloth, and a deburring tool are well under $75. Not much to pay for perfect pipe joints.
The pipe needs to be clean and smooth with no grooves for the O ring to seal. Also ream the end to avoid cutting the O ring. The crimp is to only hold the fittings from blowing apart. The crimp will hold water but will eventually leak.
My sentiments exactly. The only way I can see this remotely being feasible, is to have a chamfered and polished not rough sanded o.d. Basically all prep work. The only advantage I can see is a scenario where the water cannot be fully turned off as a temporary fix. It’s a glorified shark bite and in my opinion less reliable.
I've seen lots of problems with them, but they rarely fail catastrophicly. I just did a re pipe for a water heater, they had the heater replaced 3 years ago and the guy used all propress, 90% of which had pinhole leaks. We have acidic ground water and it ate away at the fitting, the heat from the water heater probably accelerated the process. Houses with copper pipes around here usually last 40 or so years before the acidic water eats enough of the pipe to cause problems, but propress fittings rely on a relatively small copper to copper contact area, and it doesn't last long. The O ring prevents significant leaks, but it can't stop them from dripping a bit at full pressure once the copper is compromised. Most solder, particularly higher silver content solders are fairly immune to acid groundwater, it's the pipe itself that eventually develops pinholes, and that takes significantly longer.
There’s has been a debate since the dawn of time about copper failures. Some say acid water. Others say too much pressure in the copper creates a motion inside the pipe that eats away at a flux spot inside of the pipe and wears it out. I’m truly not sure what the cause is. It can be multiple causes for copper rot, but no pipe is perfect. I feel pex b is so safe. It’s simple and easy to check. We will see in 10 more years if I’m correct.
No way, Jose. If your getting pinholes, its most likely because your water is too acidic, which should be dealt with through water conditioning. Where I live in Mass., there is M grade copper tubing that is over 65 years old and older ,with never a pinhole. Sometimes the older way is the better way. Just sayin.
Propress fittings when installed properly show a rather big nib (for lack of a better word) where the o ring is. Theses pictures show a "nib" that is barely there. These fittings were not compressed by the tool the proper amount. These fittings will seal (if properly installed with the right tool) With the o rings removed ! There is a great video of that on TH-cam ! This problem is from operator error. These fittings have been used in Europe for over 30 years no problems and have been approved for use in America. If you use a regular sweat fitting and dont clean and prep properly it will leak. Would you blame the fitting or the installer in that case ?????
Pex crimp fittings have a gauge for go - no go situations where you may not put enough pressure to crimp the fitting. Propress is a crap shoot as to if the fitting was compressed enough. However there is a video out there of a propress fitting with the o rings removed that still didnt leak.. I prefer shark bite fittings if you only need to do a few fittings. Costs more but almost zero chance of failure plus you can remove it if necessary ( I had to remove one once !!! Sweat fittings can and do leak mostly from poor installation.@@TodayIWorkOn
That appears to be heat pipe and its too thin to propress. You have to install a backing collar in the ends of every pipe. If the plumber didn't, the pipe could be deformed in the fitting and have a slow leak.
My dad and I have a plumbing company and have been pro pressing for 4 or so years now, primarily on M copper, and almost never see leaks on presses, and never have been called back for a leak. If they do leak, which happens very rarely, we'll notice it immediately and either re-press it (rotating the jaw this time so we can press from a different angle) or swap the fitting out with a new one. Very very rare, but it happens. Nothing is perfect, you just need to pay attention and check all fittings no matter what. If you're consistently getting leaks, the type of copper does not matter... Your tool is probably the issue, or you're using really poor fittings.
Plumber just put in a new water heater for us using Viega fittings and used the leftover type M pipe, I can tell because the lettering is in red front, and guess what? Half the fittings have these micro leaks. They are so small they seem to just evaporate from the heat, but they are definitely leaking, just like you described you can see the water reflect light, and it can be wiped away then comes back. So this definitely isn’t a rumor. May post a video…
Multiple possible factors. Pipe may not have been cleaned and deburred properly. May not have been inserted fully (no visible marker lines to ensure pipe is fully engaged into fitting. Tool and jaws may need to be calibrated (every 12 months or 10,000 presses per ridgid). Battery could have not been fully charged causing an incomplete press.
They probably did not fully clamp the fittings onto the pipe. Most probably because the press they were using just couldn't muster the strength to do it. Those fittings should work without the O ring installed. The copper in the fitting gets crushed and shaped into place over the pipes. The tool needs the appropriate amount of clamping force to do this. If it doesn't, you get no seal and you get leaks like that eventually.
The pipes were NOT prepped! m type copper has same OD as l & k so that makes NO difference with pro press. Only downside I see is fittings are not reusable and I'm not sure about sweating or brazing close to an installed pro press fitting.
The type of plumber that is attracted to Propress couldn't solder well because he never did the cleaning, marking and deburring. You think he will suddenly find the time to do those things now that he has discovered what he sees as instant plumbing?
How come everyone talks crap about an oring seal on sharkbite fittings, but when it comes to propress, it seems to be fine. Am I missing something here?
I have done mechanical work for 50 years, ANYTHING that has an ORing will leak much sooner than a threaded or soldered connection. On my properties that I own, I do not allow any pro press or shark bite fittings that use O-rings, they have to be threaded, soldered or use crimp rings like used on pex, or expansion like on pex, just NO O-rings.
Thats what happens if you dont inspect the coppers diameter before pressing to it. Its obvious that they pressed into a thin diameter or didn't insert properly into the fitting!! 😢
What propress tool was used? Did the plumber by the tool off of temu? Did he position jaws properly over the fittings? Prepperation is also crucial. If not, it (copper)could nick the o-rings. Cheers!
Couldn’t tell ya. I’m just the messenger. I can tell you my client had the plumber come back to inspect and the guy was ok with the small weepy leaks and would not redo them. 🤣.
I find that pipe must be cleaned and deburred just as with soldering. Battery fully charged in press tool, and only use on copper L thickness tubing. M tubing is too thin and it doesnt crimp properly from my experience. Otherwise propress is a very reliable system. I use it in old houses and tight spots where a torch is not a great idea.
Propress tools need calibration every so often. Probably some plumbers don't get their press re-calibrated as required and the machine doesn't press sufficiently.
I wonder if the plumber will fix the repair for free! That's an expensive lesson, and a good lesson for the plumber. Sure soldering takes longer, but it aint gonna leak. Lets say that the plumber has just used Pro-press in 40 jobs, and 30 jobs end up leaking, that's a bad day.
Plumber came back and said it was fine. I waited a month more and the press fittings were still weeping slightly. Clients wanted the ceiling covered up. I patched it. 😞. I wonder how long it’s going to last.
@@TodayIWorkOn 🤞 🙏 If the joints are still dripping, then guaranteed the plumber will need to fix it soon. or pay to replace the drywall ceiling every two years or sooner. Drywall and water don't mix well.
I just got ProPress for my washing machine valve lines and I had to call back the plumber once on the hot line and I may have to call him back for the cold line. Kind of Concerned.
M grade is too thin, that’s why it’s illegal to use in most states these days. L grade is thicker so it doesn’t warp as much when you crimp the fitting on creating a water tight seal. M grade is just too easy to bend making it more tricky to press properly. Viega does make brass inserts for extra security when pressing, mostly for soft copper but I’d imagine they’d also help in cases such as these. Anyway, I just wouldn’t trust pressing on M grade, it’s too thin and they get pin hole leaks a lot sooner because of it
These things happen to the best professional plumber. Actually the more experienced and famlliar to the propress system, the more chances of failure. This is a human nature that happens around us all the time. Statistically, 80% of vehicle accidents happen in a 10 miles radius from home where motorist are most familair with the environment and surroundings, They could practically drive through the area blind-folded because they know where the ditches and pot holes are. Then complaciency sets in and accidents happen. Same with the most experienced professional who could do the job blind-folded and when they least expect it, shit happens. I know a tire mount worker on the job for 30 years doing the same thing everyday and then one day, he was busy in trying to complete his work orders and inadvertently send a customer off without torqueing down the wheel nuts. Needless to say what happened afterwards. So in this case, we never would know why and how the leakage occurred.
The problem is not the fitting used but the lack of technique. Even a soldered plumbing if there's not done properly will leak overtime. Also, I dont see a reason of those fittings unless they tried to do a 45 degree, not sure why they did not go straight and then a 90 but the middle union no sense
Propress fitting carry a 50 year warrantee if properly installed. Sweat on copper fitting carry no warrantee ! I bet that these were not installed correctly !
One thing about plumbing techniques getting easier, is it allows people to skip the learning curve on the basics and fundamentals of old school plumbing. people who don't have years of experience sweating and doing old-school plumbing work, are not familiar with the prep work that is involved and they think this battery powered clamping machine is going to take care of all the nuances. Pro press has it's applications but it's not the magic machine that people are making it out to be, you still can't skip the prep process. You could say that a pro press is a glorified shark bite but it's even worse, in the sense that if you have a pro press fittings failure you have to change out the entire enchilada. if buying a $2000 pro press in and of itself made you a competent plumber everybody would be a plumber
Your plumber buddy is right M class copper is thinner than L class. As M class copper will deform more than L class thus giving the opportunity to have a leak.
I will get back to you after I give it a try. I was thinking sanding the leak area. Then a light coat of flux followed by enough heat to melt the soldier. I have don't this many times to stop leaks on copper fittings. I will wrap the gasket area with a wet rag so not to damage it and empty the pipe of water.You may be right about it not working out, but I still will need to try it to make sure it can't be done..@@u2ooberboober
@@sethlawrence2226 I work in a large hotel and have tried the soldering before. Ended up having to braze. Didnt matter a bunch with it being part in a hydraunic system if the oring burned up. The seal was the most important goal. With brazing you can drill a small hole to drain the pipe and then braze the hole when done since it’s easier to bridge with brazing than soldering. Make sure to try to build up a nice shoulder around the area. Try Oatey 95 flux solder paste.
What are you smokin'. It's the solder inside the connection that makes the seal, not a little bead around I ND the outside edge like you're caulking it. Without cleaning and Flux that solder isn't going to pull into the joint. What does go in won't bond. The damned wrong will probably melt and contaminate it and what bring is left definitely won't seal. Just do it right. Save yourself some trouble.
Faliures from install error mostly. Copper has pin holes. Copper also is very expensive and labor is even more. I would hire you to install copper at pex pricing, lol. Deal?
@@TodayIWorkOn He's not necessarily incorrect....I've been a Plumbing Contractor for 43 years and use Pro Press sparingly - It's a great tool when you need it. But seriously, the metal inserts work great and give the thinner "Type M" and older "Soft" copper the rigidity it needs to be pressed. Yeah, "Type M" is a joke - it bothers me that some are cheap enough to use that sheit.....
Went to a local plumbing company to see if I could get a short piece of copper drop off. Told them I wanted Sch. L copper and the lady was like... Oh, we mostly use M. jesus! 0_o
I believe that the tool is faulty. If you are not using a properly calibrated tool you will have this problem if the rubber ring is not pressed properly. I can see there are copper tabs on the upper center fitting. at 2:31. You are using a Chinese brand hand-held hydraulic or some cheap tool. Use a Rigid or Milwaukee tool.
Interesting take on it. I actually didn't do the work, some plumber did. I do not own a pro press tool as of today. That might change in the future and I will be sure to buy a tool that's not faulty. I think some Milwaukee tools are also made in China.
The problem is pro press. Cut it all out and replace with solder fittings. Make sure to use type L copper. Any plumber who uses type m pipe is not a plumber..
This is a crimp design with an o-ring seal. The integrity of the bond relies on the DUCTILITY of the copper as well as HOW the ring is protected. The manufacturer of these pro press fittings claims they can seal on M copper. 303.4 of the IPC says we need to trust the third-party certification agency to uphold the referenced standards. Referenced standards come from a group of engineers who crunch numbers, create theories and in some cases test. Those guys are human and can make mistakes. If you want my opinion, I agree with your Master Plumber. 1) It's a new technology still being perfected. Albeit a great invention. 2) Plumber error. Plain and simple. The plumber could have not cleaned or reamed the pipe well enough; Installed a dried out fitting; Or used a tool that was not performing right. 3) Though the manufacture says the fittings can hold the pressure on M copper, does not mean it's the best copper for the job.
This technology isn't new. It's been around since the 1980s. It's newer than copper sweat, of course. As to why it leaked, there's too many variables involved. Even taking the fitting apart might not tell you why. User error is likely, though.
I seen it happen but wen you don’t follow the manufacturer instructions and installation instructions that’s why is always recommended to mark the ens of each press
I just had my whole house water conditioning system installed with 1 1/4 progress fittings with copper and 3/4. Talked to the installer who has installed this water system in many homes over six years, and his company has never had a repair order to replace any progress fittings. BUT, he did mention that if the copper pipe needs to be adequately prepared, just like in solder preparation, the. propress fitting could weep or leak. IF the copper pipe is not cut properly and deburred, same as soldered fittings. Gettings right down to it, some plumpers rush their jobs to make a quick buck. Preparation is the key. Another thing my guy mentioned is if the progress fitting needs to be seated properly, it can cause a poor crimp. If the propress tool is not installed on the fitting properly, it can cause a leak.
Proper installation procedures are necessary on all types of connections. It should also be noted that all types of connections leak from time to time. With that said, propress has a far better "batting average" than just about any other type of connection I've ever seen.
I was going to say this very thing as well.
If you cut copper and install it without deburring the copper chances are it will cut the rubber gasket causing the joint to weep...
Or his tool needs to be recalibrated.
A down side of pro press is, there is no way to get a fitting off so the tubing would have to be cut and connected with a pro press coupling, which in some instances is not ideal. With a soldered fitting, it can simply be heated and removed. And with a shark bite it can just slip off with a release tool.
That is very true. There’s no easy repair concerning the pro press.
Th down side is don’t b an idiot & propress M copper pipe
I was about to become a True Believer of these ProPress fittings enough to talk my boss into using it for refrigeration as well now completely changed my mind
I reworked my wholehouse well piping from the well tank, added three stage wholehouse filters, reconnected my water softener, added bypass to the filters and water softener all the way to my water heater. Been there for almost a year, none a single drop. I did not buy the propress gun, too expensive, I bought the manual crimping, I will be honest it was a little challenge in some areas due you need to manually crimp/press it but it worked great. I tried to solder my plumbing and in some areas I did but I am very bad doing it and did not want to pay at least 2k for labor + material cost to do all what I did.
You have to know the correct way to use the tool properly. It’s not DIY and pack up and go come. I sweat pipe as much as I can. Then I use pro press in hard to reach area. Also I don’t see any marking on the pipes. Plumber could have pro pressed and not have the copper in all the way.
It is very appealing not to have to bring out the torch and nitrogen when doing HVAC/R work, but I too am weary. Especially with HVAC pressures as high as they are and the vibration of equipment. I'm just going to braze for the next 5 - 10 years and give it time to see how all this press stuff works out.
@@elBusDriverKC Press fittings are the future with the new flammable refrigerants. gonna be the standard way before 5-10 years.
My guess is the pipe wasn’t reamed & there’s a nip at the gasket
Or their tool wasn’t calibrated
Or the pipe wasn't fully pushed into the fitting. I've been using propress for the past 6 years and see far more solder joints leak and maybe 2 pressed leaking. I always cut the joint down the middle. No pushing the pipe passed the gasket is the problem.
I work as a Facilities Stationary Engineer.
We have multiple issues/failures with Pro press fittings. Our policy is to braze or solder in fittings if at all possible. There are situations that we can't use open flames on our Facilities and press fittings are an asset. Key is prep work and the quality of the fittings.
Propress works. Just as good as solder. However, you must debur & sand the male end of your copper piping. When you attach a propress fitting, you mark the receiving end where the fitting and the copper pipe meet with a black permanent marker so that YOU will know that you've inserted the propress fitting completely onto the receiving copper line. I DID NOT SEE THIS ON YOUR VIDEO, meaning that it was operator error: bad install. That has nothing to do with the Viega propress fitting. Also, if a manual hydraulic propress was used, you MUST be very strong to create a proper seal. VERY STRONG. That's why the electric propress seals at 3000# of pressure and is the better tool to use industrially. Again, I saw no markings on the male end copper pipe which tells me that the operator who installed the propress fitting, did NOT use the fitting correctly nor did they follow instructions. This was a bang up job.
The type of plumber that is attracted to Propress couldn't solder well because he never did the cleaning, marking and deburring. You think he will suddenly find the time to do those things now that he has discovered what he sees as instant plumbing?
@@williardbillmore5713 💯. It's like the SharkBite fittings. If used correctly and not buried in walls they can work just as well as the soldered or glue fitting. I've only had one out of the five I've ever installed leaked. And that was because I was in a hurry, forgot to Deburring the pex pipe. ( It was a f*****-up location up under floor joists in a crawl space. Couldn't get the compression tool fit and I was afraid of catching the house on fire.)
Any style of connection if not executed correctly can leak. Pro-Press is not exempt from that. Solder is not exempt and Shark Bite is not exempt. My guess is that the pipe was not prepared properly or that the tool used is out of calibration. You should be able to check for proper crimping with a go no-go gauge.
You're 100% right. Every connection method needs the proper preparation in order to work as intended. This is exactly why sharbite gets a bad reputation. The installer can't just slap it on and expect it to work.
This is interesting at least. I personally haven't had any problems with ProPress but know of some that have. Generally speaking its the same 2 people... I would like to see the fitting cut in half. I want to know how it was put together . I'd like to know the brand too.
Top of my head ,I didn't see where the copper was cleaned, there's NO sign of marking the depth of where the fitting is supposed to be , if it's that sloppy most likely they didn't ream the inside or chamfer the outside of the pipe. I would guess no formal training , which technically every plumber where I live has to take to legally work with any new machine or material. Doesn't mean they do ,but the warranty is void if we don't .
I want to also mention I don't use it everywhere , I do use a lot of solder fittings AND I was anti ProPress until a few years ago. It's not new and the tools and fittings are expensive. It is a step above PEX though. I do believe a qualified/licensed plumber wouldn't have had these problems.
YO YO You actually filmed the issue. See the embossed / scribed print line. That is a huge no no to press onto. With basic pipe prep it would have never leaked. I recommend the fingernail test. You would have the same issue if soldered. With Press you need a smooth surface free from nicks scratched or etched print lines.
I’ve noticed on propress especially with the m18 if your using a 3amp hour battery and it gets about half way on battery life. It will not crimp hard enough. I noticed this on 2 inch press valve where the propress did not have the strength to press the metal. I recommend get higher amp batteries
For a tool that costs thousands that's absolute bullshit
My M18 won’t work if there’s not enough battery to make a complete press. Always carry extra batteries. I don’t use the old ,pre red lithium batteries on precision tools. Lights ,bandsaws are different..
I've watched dozens of professional plumbers on residential plumbing and every one of them except one....would do the absolute least amount of work possible and leave. I've often wondered if they even wiped after defecation, as it is an extra step in the process.
I’m not going to deny your statement. I will keep my feeling about some trades to myself. 😂
Ouch.....but you're right
Time is money, every other service guy out there are the same, we are not putting a lot of time in the job if we dont have to.
Type M copper is only supposed to be used for drain lines, that nail supporting that bare copper pipe can also cause electrolysis over time.
That line wouldn't make any sounds sitting on that nail if say a valve like on a washer shuts off quickly? Both lines looked unsupported.
Type “M” copper tube is for domestic water - not drainage. DWV copper is for drainage. Pro Press works perfectly fine on Type “M” copper. I can see in this video that none of the copper was cleaned prior to the fittings being installed. This could be the problem here.
@@brucestorey917 I hate when people are so certain of what they’re saying but actually have no clue. I’ve worked in multiple states and Delaware was the only place I have worked where Type M was not to be used on domestic. Only for heating.
@@brucestorey917type m heating only
I'm glad I found your vid, thanks for posting it! I googled A LOT but only your video matches the exact case I have right now. 80% of the 20 or so fittings I did only 2 days ago in my bathroom refit are showing the same symptoms like yours. A little background - I rented a battery press tool - Novopress ACO103 + bought Pegler VSH Xpress 15mm & 22mm copper fittings. They have an Oring inside so I'd say very similar to what you have there. I deburred all my pipes (with Bahco 3/40mm deburrer), properly marked all fittings with a pen before insertion as per instructions, basically followed all the steps. I'm DIYing so I'm not an expert, but I watched as many tutorials as I could before tackling this job, and both the fitting specs, pipe manufacturer specs and presstool specs seem to check out. I just dont get it why this is happening. I'll try to contact the fitting manufacturer to see what they think, maybe its jaw calibration issue or maybe its the lubricant from the o-ring - I'm lost. In the two days not a single drop fell, but I can still see the same wet sheen and if I wipe with a piece of paper there's tiny wet marks. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, should I just cut it all out and redo the old fashioned way by soldering? Thanks!
I've actually never used the pro press system. This was found by me when going to close up a hole in the ceiling at my clients.
I'm assuming it's all fixed by now, but when you originally wrote about this did you install on type M or type L copper pipe? What was your resolution?
I love my torch, but I've been doing this since the 60's . I just got talked into this a year ago,thankfully no problems. However I changed when a friend of mine that runs 6 trucks hit 3 years with NO call backs. I also went to a seminar by Viega and follow their rules fastidiously ,
Agreeing with others I didn't see any depth marks, so i have no idea if it backed out before crimping . Won't know if the pipe has been de-burred , cleaned or inserted all the way until the fittings been cut in half . No idea if he or she was a real plumber and been certified to use the tool. Basing this on a couple of drips says nothing about the workmanship at all. I'd want it cut in half to physically see what happened.
Just ask NASA what they think of O rings.
When the pipe is properly prepared and quality press tool and jaws are used by a competent and Licensed Plumber, leaks with pressing is very rare. Pressing is just as good as any other method of doing joints.
I'm a service plumber and throughout the years I've had multiple failures every year.
As a rule as an industrial plumber foreman: I only use Viega propress fittings and I only use type L copper. I have never had a problem.
Gonna call you hawk-eye from now on. Good catch!
I fixed one on a 1” return line last week. It looked to have been a repair itself. It had two couplings on one side and evidence of a hanger having at one time (allthread rod hanging from the floor above just pointing at the spot) been on the area that I fixed. It was probably a regular steel hanger, because the pipe was sooooo hard to clean and remove all of the discoloration. I’d still rather try to press inside of an old house especially up there with all of that wood around it, than to see that house on the news in the morning. You just need to fix that.
Type m copper has the same outside diameter as type l. The seal for propress is the o-ring sealing on the outside wall of copper so you can use type m. If the pipe is not prepped properly it’s possible to nick the o-ring which would leak. Also inserting pipe into fitting to correct insertion depth is critical. I’ve used this system on domestic water, heating systems as well as natural gas with black iron and copper and it’s been bullet proof. Just like any connection soldering, brazing, grooved, MJ, threaded, etc., following proper procedure is crucial for successful leak free system. Good luck.
Maybe
My 6 year old plumbing failed with this and 28 flats were 'upgraded.' Clearly the sides get full compression while the front and back get no compression at all. The toolhead should have segmented sections. I guess it is only a matter of time when the joints fail upstairs and I get flooded.
I have personally done hundreds of propress fittings and had zero leaks. I tested propress on my channel taking the orings OUT and it did not leak, proving the oring isnt even required for primary sealing. Propress leaks for 3 reasons, 1) failure to insert the fitting fully 2) NO prep of pipe, it needs to be cleaned deburred and chamfered 3) use of crappy fittings. I personally hate Viega as a company for business reasons but I will only use their fittings. The 3rd party fittings always seem to cause issues. Just my two cents
I’ve been seeing more pro press fitting pop off on social media. I’m sure it’s rare, but I don’t like the simple aspect that if I need to redo a propress section, you can’t sweat the fitting off. I’m also weary of copper in general from seeing so many pin hole leaks over my career. There’s a lot of reasons why that happens. Copper from to much pressure, not using the right thickness copper, not cleaning and deburring the copper before you solder it and water quality. In my new home build I’m going to stick to pex b because I’ve had great success with it. Thanks for the comment! 800k subscribers!! Congrats on that success. 🙂
@@TodayIWorkOnPEX leaches chemicals
You should call the plumber that did it and give them a chance to come back and correct it. I’m sure they would love to know that it failed.
Actually, that's exactly what I recommended to the client. Client called plumber, he came back and said it was fine. I was blown away by that response. Some people just don't care.
That's why I only like to have my copper sweated.
He said the plumber fixed the leak with propress. Never said it was a propress that caused the initial leak
If you don't do that right, then that will leak as well.
Nibco leaks. I don’t use that brand anymore because of it.
What are you using?
@@stevensullivan1251 I use Viega fittings
In looking at progress fitting failures, usually it is operator error. Looking at your video you can see what appears to be burn marks from the previous traditional install, fyi. The pipe “supported” by a downward leaning nail, the 45* copper pipe cut in half, and the lack of cleaning and depth marks on the male pipe ends leads me to believe this was installed incorrectly, maybe rushed, or not done by a licensed/knowledgeable plumber. I use scotch brite pads to clean (and polish if you will) the male ends while deburing the inside of the pipe. I also do this with shark bite fittings. Sand paper can cause small micro groves that leach out water under pressure.
Think wood working, you always go up in grit so you make the scratches (sanding marks) smaller and smaller…to the point you don’t see or feel them. Prep is key! And making sure your tool is calibrated or still in calibration is very important as well as using a fully charged battery and the tool at 90* to your pipe fitting. When one of the puzzle pieces are not there, you get weeping and gnashing of teeth of biblical proportions….or at least you’ll feel that way.
Another “thing” I do is use toilet paper to check for water leaks on all fittings with water pressure on. Toilet paper is extremely sensitive to any water and it is very easy to see. My fingers don’t feel as well as they use to and my eyes? In certain situations you just can see a small weeping leak.
Just my $0.02 worth, hope it helps someone. And my tenants aren’t allowed to call service personnel (create a bill for the unit) only call me and I go check it out. If it is something I cannot fix, I call my trusted network of tradesman.
The insertion depths were not marked and it doesn’t look like the pipe was properly cleaned. Also, the o rings are lubricated and sometimes that oil can be squeezed out looking like a glimmer of water. Either way, I’ve seen cheap press fittings fail immediately. Use viega only, prep the pipe, and mark the insertion depth.
There was green residue on the pipes on the bottom if you look close enough. That usually means water reaction with the copper. When I did this video, the pipes were installed 3 months prior.
It’s them chines j.w fitting paired with m12 press tool I’ve seen that plenty and funny thing is for the most part it won’t ever actually form a drop but it don’t sit right with me if I use the m12 pro press I use viga fittings or m18 pro press for the j.w fittings
I have pressed at least 1500 fitting with no leaks - it is all in the prep and using Viega fitting not china knockoffs clean deburred pipe, I have been using the system since 2006 without any issues paid for itself in the first 3 jobs
I've had propress fittings leak on M copper. Usually on a well that is acidic or really old M copper. If it's either of those I'll usually just take the time and sweat fittings on now. If it's acidic I'll mention a neutralizer to the homeowner as well.
Type M copper refers to the wall thickness with type k being the thickest, type L medium, and type M being the thinnest wall. The OD's are the same for all types.
But for sure I have experienced looseness when fitting M pipe with fittings which I overcome by filling it with solder. And L is snug and K is tight needs a little extra sandcloth use. Mostly used L for propress. ?? Hardly ever use K in 21st century.
Master plumber is wrong about type M the person who did the job didn’t team outside of pipe and or didn’t get the fitting on the pipe past the rubber gasket I don’t see black marker marks.
Propress are like sharkbite fittings, goos in a pinch and for a quick fix if you can't turn the water off completely. But I trust my torch and 95/5 way more.
Why is it that plumbers will do almost anything not to solder pipes together? Propress, Pex, and Shark Bite seem like temporary DIY technologies that are not suited for permanent connections.
My house was built 27 years ago with coppers pipes with soldered connections and we have never had leaks or burst connections. I replaced a stuck valve on the supply line of my water heater 15 years ago using copper and soldered connections and it has never leaked. The price of a propane torch, flux, solder, emery cloth, and a deburring tool are well under $75. Not much to pay for perfect pipe joints.
Time is money in any service trade dumbo.
The pipe needs to be clean and smooth with no grooves for the O ring to seal. Also ream the end to avoid cutting the O ring. The crimp is to only hold the fittings from blowing apart. The crimp will hold water but will eventually leak.
Eventually leak is the key word, so why would you put it in there then? With solder you dont have to worry about it blowing out or leaking.
@@um8440What I meant was if the O ring leaks the crimp might stop the leak for awhile and give you a false sense of a properly sealing O ring.
My sentiments exactly. The only way I can see this remotely being feasible, is to have a chamfered and polished not rough sanded o.d. Basically all prep work. The only advantage I can see is a scenario where the water cannot be fully turned off as a temporary fix. It’s a glorified shark bite and in my opinion less reliable.
@TheDave4584 not at all . I've run 3 and 4 inch mains in pro press. Ig lasts 40 years. Leajs are 99.i percent installation error.
@@someguy5438 go back after a week shine a flashlight on the joints and lemme know how they look
I've seen lots of problems with them, but they rarely fail catastrophicly. I just did a re pipe for a water heater, they had the heater replaced 3 years ago and the guy used all propress, 90% of which had pinhole leaks. We have acidic ground water and it ate away at the fitting, the heat from the water heater probably accelerated the process. Houses with copper pipes around here usually last 40 or so years before the acidic water eats enough of the pipe to cause problems, but propress fittings rely on a relatively small copper to copper contact area, and it doesn't last long. The O ring prevents significant leaks, but it can't stop them from dripping a bit at full pressure once the copper is compromised. Most solder, particularly higher silver content solders are fairly immune to acid groundwater, it's the pipe itself that eventually develops pinholes, and that takes significantly longer.
There’s has been a debate since the dawn of time about copper failures. Some say acid water. Others say too much pressure in the copper creates a motion inside the pipe that eats away at a flux spot inside of the pipe and wears it out. I’m truly not sure what the cause is. It can be multiple causes for copper rot, but no pipe is perfect. I feel pex b is so safe. It’s simple and easy to check. We will see in 10 more years if I’m correct.
No way, Jose. If your getting pinholes, its most likely because your water is too acidic, which should be dealt with through water conditioning. Where I live in Mass., there is M grade copper tubing that is over 65 years old and older ,with never a pinhole. Sometimes the older way is the better way. Just sayin.
Thanks for posting. Good to know.
They have their uses but soldering where you can is better.
Propress fittings when installed properly show a rather big nib (for lack of a better word) where the o ring is. Theses pictures show a "nib" that is barely there. These fittings were not compressed by the tool the proper amount. These fittings will seal (if properly installed with the right tool) With the o rings removed ! There is a great video of that on TH-cam ! This problem is from operator error. These fittings have been used in Europe for over 30 years no problems and have been approved for use in America. If you use a regular sweat fitting and dont clean and prep properly it will leak. Would you blame the fitting or the installer in that case ?????
You have valid points. You are also the first one that mentioned the "nib" is lacking. Interesting observation.
Pex crimp fittings have a gauge for go - no go situations where you may not put enough pressure to crimp the fitting. Propress is a crap shoot as to if the fitting was compressed enough. However there is a video out there of a propress fitting with the o rings removed that still didnt leak.. I prefer shark bite fittings if you only need to do a few fittings. Costs more but almost zero chance of failure plus you can remove it if necessary ( I had to remove one once !!! Sweat fittings can and do leak mostly from poor installation.@@TodayIWorkOn
Like so many have said, prep,prep,prep. 99.9% of the time it’s operator error.
That appears to be heat pipe and its too thin to propress. You have to install a backing collar in the ends of every pipe. If the plumber didn't, the pipe could be deformed in the fitting and have a slow leak.
Thank you, I knew nothing about M copper.
He probably charged a good deal of money to come out on Christmas it is relatively easy to fix his press needs to be adjusted
Was the pipe cleaned and de-burred properly ? I don’t see much shinny copper after the fitting
It looks like it was not. This was done by a plumber as an emergency repair on Christmas Day. LOL.
My dad and I have a plumbing company and have been pro pressing for 4 or so years now, primarily on M copper, and almost never see leaks on presses, and never have been called back for a leak. If they do leak, which happens very rarely, we'll notice it immediately and either re-press it (rotating the jaw this time so we can press from a different angle) or swap the fitting out with a new one. Very very rare, but it happens. Nothing is perfect, you just need to pay attention and check all fittings no matter what. If you're consistently getting leaks, the type of copper does not matter... Your tool is probably the issue, or you're using really poor fittings.
Plumber just put in a new water heater for us using Viega fittings and used the leftover type M pipe, I can tell because the lettering is in red front, and guess what? Half the fittings have these micro leaks. They are so small they seem to just evaporate from the heat, but they are definitely leaking, just like you described you can see the water reflect light, and it can be wiped away then comes back. So this definitely isn’t a rumor. May post a video…
I can see this happening on a lot of hidden fittings. I wonder if the leak will get worse over time. Please keep me updated.
A Lot of those "micro leaks" are residue from the press and or condensation dumbo.
Multiple possible factors. Pipe may not have been cleaned and deburred properly. May not have been inserted fully (no visible marker lines to ensure pipe is fully engaged into fitting. Tool and jaws may need to be calibrated (every 12 months or 10,000 presses per ridgid). Battery could have not been fully charged causing an incomplete press.
Sounds suspect as fuck for an expensive plumbing job, should be perfect.
@@RFSpartan I bet you're lots of fun to hang out with 👍
Perfect answer right here. Both sweating and this new way is cool. Definitely didn’t see any markings though
They probably did not fully clamp the fittings onto the pipe. Most probably because the press they were using just couldn't muster the strength to do it. Those fittings should work without the O ring installed. The copper in the fitting gets crushed and shaped into place over the pipes. The tool needs the appropriate amount of clamping force to do this. If it doesn't, you get no seal and you get leaks like that eventually.
The pipes were NOT prepped! m type copper has same OD as l & k so that makes NO difference with pro press. Only downside I see is fittings are not reusable and I'm not sure about sweating or brazing close to an installed pro press fitting.
The type of plumber that is attracted to Propress couldn't solder well because he never did the cleaning, marking and deburring. You think he will suddenly find the time to do those things now that he has discovered what he sees as instant plumbing?
How come everyone talks crap about an oring seal on sharkbite fittings, but when it comes to propress, it seems to be fine. Am I missing something here?
Metal o ring vs rubber maybe?
The fact that it is more than one in the same area and same job likely points to issue with the process..
I have done mechanical work for 50 years, ANYTHING that has an ORing will leak much sooner than a threaded or soldered connection. On my properties that I own, I do not allow any pro press or shark bite fittings that use O-rings, they have to be threaded, soldered or use crimp rings like used on pex, or expansion like on pex, just NO O-rings.
Rushing and/or Pro Press was not in best of crimping position. No excuse, that space was small, plumber big armed wide shoulders 😟
NIBCO press fittings seem to leak on the 1/2 and 3/4
I've had this issue twice now with Nibco. Never had an issue for 15 years with Viega
They make brass stiffener inserts to transition from m type. I usually sweat on a street footing and press from there.
Interesting. Never knew that. I don’t use propers but this comment was very helpful.
Thats what happens if you dont inspect the coppers diameter before pressing to it. Its obvious that they pressed into a thin diameter or didn't insert properly into the fitting!! 😢
This is sad to hear. You are right everyone was thinking that the press tools were a God send.
What propress tool was used? Did the plumber by the tool off of temu? Did he position jaws properly over the fittings? Prepperation is also crucial. If not, it (copper)could nick the o-rings.
Cheers!
Couldn’t tell ya. I’m just the messenger. I can tell you my client had the plumber come back to inspect and the guy was ok with the small weepy leaks and would not redo them. 🤣.
Thank you for sharing
I find that pipe must be cleaned and deburred just as with soldering. Battery fully charged in press tool, and only use on copper L thickness tubing. M tubing is too thin and it doesnt crimp properly from my experience. Otherwise propress is a very reliable system. I use it in old houses and tight spots where a torch is not a great idea.
A bad job is a bad job. Inadequate prep etc will lead to leaks in sweated joints too. This is not a propress issue imo, this is installer error.
I would rather have PEX or L copper (Soldered). If they don't leak after the work, they will be good for a very long time.
Like soldering, prep is important, I've seen leaking soldered joints, it happens, nothing is 100%. Press fitting have a proven track record.
With expansion and contraction from temperature changes all those are gonna leak eventually.
I've seen other videos about type M not working with Propress.
bad JAW because there are scratches on the top of the clamp ,you can hurt yourself because of the scratches visible on the connectors
Propress tools need calibration every so often. Probably some plumbers don't get their press re-calibrated as required and the machine doesn't press sufficiently.
I wonder if the plumber will fix the repair for free! That's an expensive lesson, and a good lesson for the plumber. Sure soldering takes longer, but it aint gonna leak. Lets say that the plumber has just used Pro-press in 40 jobs, and 30 jobs end up leaking, that's a bad day.
Plumber came back and said it was fine. I waited a month more and the press fittings were still weeping slightly. Clients wanted the ceiling covered up. I patched it. 😞. I wonder how long it’s going to last.
@@TodayIWorkOn 🤞 🙏
If the joints are still dripping, then guaranteed the plumber will need to fix it soon. or pay to replace the drywall ceiling every two years or sooner.
Drywall and water don't mix well.
was not prepped right
I just got ProPress for my washing machine valve lines and I had to call back the plumber once on the hot line and I may have to call him back for the cold line. Kind of Concerned.
M grade is too thin, that’s why it’s illegal to use in most states these days. L grade is thicker so it doesn’t warp as much when you crimp the fitting on creating a water tight seal. M grade is just too easy to bend making it more tricky to press properly. Viega does make brass inserts for extra security when pressing, mostly for soft copper but I’d imagine they’d also help in cases such as these. Anyway, I just wouldn’t trust pressing on M grade, it’s too thin and they get pin hole leaks a lot sooner because of it
A lot of times Nibco fittings have cause us many problems in the past, always go with Viega
If I ever buy a pro press, I'll keep that in mind.
These things happen to the best professional plumber. Actually the more experienced and famlliar to the propress system, the more chances of failure. This is a human nature that happens around us all the time. Statistically, 80% of vehicle accidents happen in a 10 miles radius from home where motorist are most familair with the environment and surroundings, They could practically drive through the area blind-folded because they know where the ditches and pot holes are. Then complaciency sets in and accidents happen. Same with the most experienced professional who could do the job blind-folded and when they least expect it, shit happens. I know a tire mount worker on the job for 30 years doing the same thing everyday and then one day, he was busy in trying to complete his work orders and inadvertently send a customer off without torqueing down the wheel nuts. Needless to say what happened afterwards. So in this case, we never would know why and how the leakage occurred.
You need to use a fully charged battery and a room temp propress for a proper press
The problem is not the fitting used but the lack of technique. Even a soldered plumbing if there's not done properly will leak overtime. Also, I dont see a reason of those fittings unless they tried to do a 45 degree, not sure why they did not go straight and then a 90 but the middle union no sense
I have not use any pro press fittings. I don’t feel like they are the way go for now.
M copper should be outlawed in residential construction for any supply lines.
so i just had a water heater AND a leaky pipe fixed with these propress. so how do i know if mine are L, M, or K copper?
It should have a marking on it saying what size it is.
Actually Viega says propress is fine with type M. look it up. Someone didn't deburr the pipe.
Interesting. Engineers know what works, most failures are probably from install error.
Can’t use it on type M copper pipe
You can have the best product in the world, but if its not used properley its as good as the worst product :)
Exactly right
Propress fitting carry a 50 year warrantee if properly installed. Sweat on copper fitting carry no warrantee ! I bet that these were not installed correctly !
Thats weird. I never gad a failed joint yet. L use a Milwaukee tool and various brand fittings. But mostly Viega
The problem is the pipe was never cleaned or prepared properly hence why it is leaking.
One thing about plumbing techniques getting easier, is it allows people to skip the learning curve on the basics and fundamentals of old school plumbing. people who don't have years of experience sweating and doing old-school plumbing work, are not familiar with the prep work that is involved and they think this battery powered clamping machine is going to take care of all the nuances. Pro press has it's applications but it's not the magic machine that people are making it out to be, you still can't skip the prep process. You could say that a pro press is a glorified shark bite but it's even worse, in the sense that if you have a pro press fittings failure you have to change out the entire enchilada. if buying a $2000 pro press in and of itself made you a competent plumber everybody would be a plumber
That nail hanger FTW.
The whole house is… interesting. Custom build on a side of a steep, steep hill.
Your plumber buddy is right M class copper is thinner than L class. As M class copper will deform more than L class thus giving the opportunity to have a leak.
I always wondered with small leaks could you shut off the water and soldier the joint without damaging the gasket inside the fitting.
You’d have to braze it in a worse case scenario since you couldn’t get flux in the crimped joint..
I will get back to you after I give it a try. I was thinking sanding the leak area. Then a light coat of flux followed by enough heat to melt the soldier. I have don't this many times to stop leaks on copper fittings. I will wrap the gasket area with a wet rag so not to damage it and empty the pipe of water.You may be right about it not working out, but I still will need to try it to make sure it can't be done..@@u2ooberboober
@@sethlawrence2226 I work in a large hotel and have tried the soldering before. Ended up having to braze. Didnt matter a bunch with it being part in a hydraunic system if the oring burned up. The seal was the most important goal. With brazing you can drill a small hole to drain the pipe and then braze the hole when done since it’s easier to bridge with brazing than soldering. Make sure to try to build up a nice shoulder around the area. Try Oatey 95 flux solder paste.
What are you smokin'. It's the solder inside the connection that makes the seal, not a little bead around I ND the outside edge like you're caulking it. Without cleaning and Flux that solder isn't going to pull into the joint. What does go in won't bond. The damned wrong will probably melt and contaminate it and what bring is left definitely won't seal.
Just do it right. Save yourself some trouble.
You must clean and debur pipe.as per manufacturing specs.
Look at the Pipework though - it’s not supported. If that’s the standard of their work then they probably haven’t deburred the pipes either
There are many pex pipe and fitting failures of type a,b &c. I am enjoying my copper especially it being a natural antimicrobial. Plastic is not.
Faliures from install error mostly. Copper has pin holes. Copper also is very expensive and labor is even more. I would hire you to install copper at pex pricing, lol. Deal?
That looks like it was pressed/crimped incorrectly.
They make a a sleeve for Type M or older, thinner copper....
I talked to a master plumber friend of mine and he said he would never propress old M copper because of this weeping issue.
@@TodayIWorkOn He's not necessarily incorrect....I've been a Plumbing Contractor for 43 years and use Pro Press sparingly - It's a great tool when you need it. But seriously, the metal inserts work great and give the thinner "Type M" and older "Soft" copper the rigidity it needs to be pressed. Yeah, "Type M" is a joke - it bothers me that some are cheap enough to use that sheit.....
Went to a local plumbing company to see if I could get a short piece of copper drop off. Told them I wanted Sch. L copper and the lady was like... Oh, we mostly use M. jesus! 0_o
@@TodayIWorkOn According to Viega you can press M copper. someone didn't prep the copper.
Your problem is you have thin "m" copper. You should use a pro press on "K" or "L" copper. Your plumber should have told you.
According to some comments you can pro press on M copper. This was a clients house and it was an emergency repair done on Christmas Day.
I believe that the tool is faulty. If you are not using a properly calibrated tool you will have this problem if the rubber ring is not pressed properly. I can see there are copper tabs on the upper center fitting. at 2:31. You are using a Chinese brand hand-held hydraulic or some cheap tool. Use a Rigid or Milwaukee tool.
Interesting take on it. I actually didn't do the work, some plumber did. I do not own a pro press tool as of today. That might change in the future and I will be sure to buy a tool that's not faulty. I think some Milwaukee tools are also made in China.
The problem is pro press. Cut it all out and replace with solder fittings. Make sure to use type L copper. Any plumber who uses type m pipe is not a plumber..
So the plumber knew it was going to fail but went ahead anyway. ? Would have been better to use a shark bite push to fit. 😂
It sounds like they didn't de burn the pipe before pressing the fittings
De burn? (LOL). "boss, de plane, de plane". funny stuff. :)