2016: They're not replacing the old marines they still support them stop being so pessimistic 2024: They're phasing out your models and here's why it's a good thing
@@Neothunder240 But they do sometimes. Just proxy your stuff or play with legends? Do you play competitive? If no, then it doesn't affect you. Living games change.
@@captaincorundum9788 "Just proxy" I don't want to be forced to proxy my entire army. I shouldn't have to. And of course it does affect everyone wether you play competitive or not. Those legends rules won't last another edition, just like it happened to the legends in AoS. Change doesn't mean replacing my army with a different thing I dislike and telling me I should be happy about it.
But then in imperial agents they removed the primaris kill team from death watch. They have no idea what they are doing, just lots of day drinking going on there.
And they didn't. For seven years. But no one pinky promised that they will be around until the heat death of the universe. The writing's been on the wall day 1.
I appreciate such a polite perspective from a newer player, but I think the ideas presented here miss a few important marks. First I'll say most of us are in agreement that the quality and scale of the primaris models is much better than that of the old firstborn, and the idea of moving the faction entirely into the new quality makes 100% sense. That isn't the issue - rather it is the invalidating of the old units entirely. You showed a series of tactical marines starting from the Rogue Trader days (and I think even missed the 3rd ed update haha). Each time the marine line was upgraded, the new models were more detailed, better quality, and larger scale for a better more imposing figure. Yet no one complained at all because they were simply newer better versions of the same models - people COULD use their old tactical marines if that's what they had. And if the primaris revamp was simply that - that you had the Primaris Tactical Squad, the Primaris Devestator Squad, etc - then the community would have been excited finally getting True Scale marines. But that isn't what happened. The primaris range was incredibly different - and itself got bloated very fast. Sure, we are getting some consolidation now (sternguard are universal, terminators are back, etc), but many firstborn units cannot function as their primaris counterparts (boxnoughts - which do arguably look better than the modern beer-belly ones lol, landspeeders, and when the predator goes that). Again, the range-bloat was a problem of their own making (such that they cannot even support all the Primaris units - try buying some Supressors haha - and they haven't really managed all the old marine niches correctly yet), so they never HAD to send Firstborn units off to Legends. And the argument that it is "only competitive play" misses a lot. Firstly, the Index lists are not simply sub-optimal - they are pretty much unplayable. In 8th, 9th, and 10th GW has struggled with marines and each time marine units dropped 20-30% in points easily during the very first balance patch. Since Index units never get updated, that means playing a game where you're bringing like 1500pts to a 2000pt game - pretty much a guaranteed loss. So sure, officially you CAN put the models on the table, but it has been designed so that anyone who does quickly stops playing them. In addition, not all of these units even continue getting Legends support. Many factions have had units disappear entirely going into 10th (boy do I miss fielding my Ashmantle model), and even as of 9th I had to stop fielding my landspeeders because while Tornados with 2x multi-meltas or 2x flamers had been allowed for ages, they were not included as an option and thus are not even fieldable casually. This is where we get to that lovingly painted 2nd ed picture you showed a few times. That list was totally playable with zero issue through 7th (despite upgraded versions of every single model there being printed, but not invalidating them), and continued to be playable through 9th. And when we spend years - decades - slowly building up and painting an army, that is not just the time and emotional investment, but a massive financial investment. Maybe you have the income to discard old models and buy new ones as they come out, and if so that is wonderful for you. But this game is so expensive - and continues to get more and more expensive - that most of us physically cannot just shelve 2k-4k worth of models and buy replacements. If GW shelved all firstborn units overnight and said "Primaris or bust," I would not buy any Primaris models - I would just stop playing the game because I cannot invest that heavily in it. In fact, over the last year I have been double hit because the "new" range I had gotten into was Sigmar and I loved the Sacrosanct Stormcast chamber (warrior-priest/wizard vibes are super cool!) only to see the entire range relegated to Legends, and only for 1 year. Again, GW over-bloated the Stormcast range by releasing an entire new army's worth of units every edition in a way that pushed consuming but is unsustainable for a game. Yet again, no one is arguing that the new models don't look amazing. But so many of us have already invested so much money that we can't just go and buy an army's worth of the new pretty things whenever they get released. So in conclusion, no one (who's being reasonable) is saying that GW shouldn't improve things and move on to nicer updated kits for their factions. What we're saying is update and provide occasional new units so that our collections aren't turned into shelf decorations (which let's be real, is not an acceptable response) so that we can play the game we love and feel confident in investing into the hobby. Because if we see that units we buy can be tossed aside even in less than a decade, then for these prices and time investment MANY of us just cannot interact with GW products and you'll see instead a hobby shift to things like 3D printing and One Page Rules (which will cause the long-term degradation of the GW IPs, which I would be sad to see). I hope this elucidates that the issue isn't just some surface level cosmetic problem (outside of Phobos armor ;P), but a real financial and time investment problem that will guaranteed cause players to turn away from the hobby rather than embrace the new quality.
That’s like the most accurate review of what’s going on with hobby I’ve ever seen. Probably I’m just too new to Warhammer to get it, but you explained the feeling I have been getting, which I was unable to put into words. Thank you.
Totally right. I’ve only started collecting since 8th edition because thats when I had the money. GW used to make armies that would be supported and playable for years with only minor adjustments. I’m probably going to sell my old models on eBay now. I’ve moved to the Horus heresy and I think I enjoy the community more. Shame that game is more expensive. I just 3D print.
GW exists to sell models. Their decision making as a company revolves around that. Although some of these cases are a shame, I'm pretty sure you could still use/proxy the vast majority of these models. But also, someone with a pre-7th army wanting to use it in comp 10th is providing literally no income for GW while essentially draining their resources. I believe it is fair for there to be a natural lifespan, and 20+ years is pretty good going. I expect we'll see many primaris kits get a similar run
@@podger_minis That's fine, Gamesworkshop's existence and success is predicated on profit, that's completely fine. Invalidating old models would probably incentivise people to buy the new replacements, increasing profits but it feels bad to me as a consumer who has an emotional investment in this art project that I've poured years into. Using models as long term art projects has friction with a churn and burn, buy models to be meta competitive approach in a financial sense on the company balance sheet, but that's not my problem. I can just... not play Gamesworkshop stuff. It's up to the company to find the approach that maximises their return and naturally consumers will either accept it or leave, and they can do whatever they want. But I can also do whatever I want. I just hope that the middle ground maximises both the happiness of the consumer base and corporate but I just don't trust corporations to not try to completely maximise their returns through whales and therefore alienate the majority of their player base
Though not in the hobby long enough for this to be my path, I feel people with existing armies would provide income to GW. Rules and Codexes are sold every edition to provide some measure of profit. I got into the hobby a few years ago because there was such a wealth of lore already established. I feel like having a large existing community that provides a low steady income makes a platform for a company to entice new customers (to receive irregular higher incomes) and provide those new customers with an active player-base.
Games workshop could have done a 1 for 1 replacement of their kits.... instead, they went to effort to invalidate people's old collections, and your defending them
It all comes back to the problem of prioritising competitive play, over a fun game. They have more than enough resources to make good rules for these characters
No. Its prioritizing selling selling selling over anything else. They could have kept the rules and people would just convert the models. We did that for what 40-50% of the models back in the day? GW said themselves that they are a models company, not a games company (which is riddiculous taking into consideration the name).
Play crusade then , 40k is like starcraft you have your balance comp part (with is very fun if you know game on higher level ) and the more less skill flor part in crusade who is like co op mission/campaign. Both are fun but crusade unchained by balance needed for comp let you do silly fluff stuff ,want your chaos lord kill a warhound titan in one turn ?you can ,want to use bad unit and buff it to being good ?you can ,want play hh stuf /other legends ? you can People are so blind by the loud core gamemode they forget abaut the more obscure better gamemode
Two reasons for what GW is doing 1: They got burned in losing their copyright/trademark lawsuit. So they made up names for new units that they could then own. 2: Space Marines make them the most money. It was time to get space marine players to buy a whole new army.
There is also the Contemptor Dreadnaught issue that happened. When the new model was released it was said it could be used in 40k, three months later it was moved to legends. GW cant keep their word for less than a year....
It's why a lot of people refuse to buy the Cerastus Knight. For all we know maybe it's getting Legends'd at the drop of the Knight codex or at the end of the edition.
Or designed primaris to be direct 1 to 1 replacements But instead they're like Nah Let's make gun specific squads and make them eldar but two wound and power armour
@@captaincorundum9788 Legends rules aren't fun to play in casual. They're over-costed, less deep and don't cooperate with non legends rules well. You will need to homebrew rules or use a different system which Is a good solution IMO.
@@soupcake3092 That is entirely fair. I keep saying that 9th exists. That being said, nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything, and that is the crux of the idea I think
Historicals are probably a better bet with how GW has gone these days. Your French grenedier will always be a French genadier, your Panzer IV will always be a Panzer IV, your seleucid cataphract will always be a seleucid cataphract. GW are just going to keep making things and then getting rid of them to force people into buying twice and as the shareholders demand more and more profit each time the cycle comes round things will last for less time before they get squatted again. Bolt action third edition comes out next month (after 8 years of second ed). Could be a good time for people to try something new with models what won't get squatted every few years and rules that don't totally change every 3 months.
Also generic fantasy/sci fi games which encourages using whatever models you wish are good for this too, such as Oathmark, Dragon Rampant, or Xenos Rampant
Your example with Stormcast is on point, everyone want to get a shiny new models, especially when they are cooler than old ones. The thing is, this example could not be applied to the latest refreshes. Blood angels just got Ultramarines painted black and gold. Death Company should be sculpted by you to make them Death Company-ish. And Sanguinary Guard just should be 3d printed, because even kitbash of Assault intercessors with old SG bits are more Sanguinary Guard than the new models. So if I`m paying stupid money I want for it to be a long-distance product, and I want it to be high quality product. If they want to discontinue releases after 4 years why should I even bother? If a multimillionaire company can't compete with freelance designers in terms of quality of the product why should I pay twice the price? Rhetorical question, but the answer to it tells why we are going to see fall of in the hobby if nothing would be changed.
I still don’t get why games workshop got rid of the death wing command squad when they could’ve easily ported it over using the new upgrade kit. All they had to do was add an apothecary arm, and whatever other bits are used, and then include a Halberd for the champion and the ancient is not an issue.
Terminators and Scouts came back. They follow the Primaris design language. They're not inherently bad, and can be dealt with using old bits and a scalpel, but the fact they might come back doesn't mean they're going to look good. The aesthetic has been permanently maimed.
@@lizadon0740 Identical? Nope. The proportions are different, and that isn't relative to scale. They're excessively bulky. Some crucial shapes are different. Look at the power fists. Look at the detailing on the bare heads. Primaris. The belt clasps. Look at the heavy flamer, the assault cannon etc. They look like generic sci-fi guns like the rest of the Primaris trash. If you think they're identical you're not looking remotely close enough.
Nah man, you are not goin way hard enough on GW as you should for some of their choices. Look, there is nothing wrong with outright replacing models. Of course they should make things better stuff, but the issue that comes is truly just shit like the Death Company. Like bro, it is just black jumppack jump intercessors. They couldn't be bother to add all the detail the olds ones had?! No, there is nothing wrong with demanding actual work. If you are paying for over price pieces of plastic, can they actually make it look fancy for what they are suppose to be. And comes the true issue. The change of art. The style is legit getting worse with some of the newer models. The terminator chaplins, the "new" death company dreadnought, that new death company. We are losing gothic edge to some models for just basic science fiction at least for space marines. Which wouldn't be so bad, if you didn't look at age of sigmar and see all of it going there. No. We can demand for more. More options, more flair, more detail. That is what makes 40k, 40k! You can't just say "you can just buy the old kit on ebay". What the fuck kind of non-argument is that?
I think the problem there is that the design team for 40k is clearly less passionate than, say, the design team for AoS. Who seem to be pumping out non-stop bangers, while 40k gets wing flaps.
I do not really mind about the models being replaced, but fucking replace them, dont just "legends them", just watch half of youtube, the tutorials are all for models that are no longer avilable.
might be fine for first born, but then you look at any other army that gets legends and we KNOW there is no way in hell we will ever see our favorite models come back, even upsized
Games workshop should allow and support using old kits for their new replacements primaris should not exist they should have just been a refresh on the first born models. Retro armies should always be supported as proxies, when it takes months to years to get an army on the table an 8 year support cycle is just not enough time
I agree with most of what podger says in most videos, the warhammer space needs more calming voices I think. But I really don't like the suggestion that we need to be grateful to gw for updating models. As hobbyists we don't owe them anything, like podger said, gw is a company that exists to make money, and they do that by providing a service that consumers deem as valuable and purchase. It is literally a transactional relationship, customers money and attention needs to be earned. Side note, the problem people have with the sanguinary guard is that the most recognisable part of their visual identity has been taken away. Their wings were the most recognisable part of the silhouette, its in every piece of art they are in, it's even on the cover of the new launch box. The difference between a funny pose on dante, or less bling on the deathwing knights, is that their visual identity was still preserved, the sanguinary guards was not, theyre just not special any more. It would be like taking away dantes jump pack and having him walk, or taking the deathwing knights weapons and shields and giving them all lightning claws, they are fundamentally changed from the aesthetic people like and care about. That is a failing on gws part, not the customers preferences.
is it? all new chaos stuff is solid ,xenos also get good stuff , same for the most of the empire only more bland stuff is not veteran sm but firstborn not veteran units are also bland nothing change really
Ah yes. My WS army made legend. For that l got , well nothing . No new bikes, no bike characters , sniper scouts, land speeders etc all gone. But hey l can play really bad white painted ultramarines, in a way that looks nothing and feels nothing like White Scars should. Worse part l did follow the meme "pick what you like, don't look at the meta etc", so l collected&bought stuff for 6 years. Rebased half the army to make it legal. What is worse l never had fun playing the army, because GW did a lot to make bikes unfun. What l should have done was pick an ever green faction that is good every edition , like eldar. If l were to wait another 3 to 6 years, then what did l do with my life? 12 years of waiting that MAYBE in 12th ed bikes will be re released ? And what if they suck , wait another 3-6 years. Mean time, to play, l have to buy codex, and play with sesonal armies and play not with the stuff l like and what l bought in to. Ah and as a bonus l live in a country where 450-500$ is to me losing 700$ is a bit different.
My 2009 iPhone is no longer supported. If anything, old Warhammer models hold resale value fairly well compared to e.g. old tech. It's a shame if that's the only army you want to use, one day white scars will get a big update. For better or worse, GW are not going to support everything from the past and update every army and faction within an edition or two - and I am saying I understand why they don't
17:53 Legends is kinda a mixed bag as alot of us have bought the new plastic kits for Horus Heresy and then within 6 to 7 months you can't use them in 40k and that just rubs people the wrong way when new kits get replaced straight away. But 20 years for a model is fine.
Taking things away just to keep them as things to bring back later is an awful thing to do. No one should be happy a company took something from you and then gave it back.
There is more to it than that though. I consistently try to make the point that not supporting in comp play this edition =/= taking away on multiple levels, and it is really a temporary and necessary thing given the time we are at in 40k's evolution.
@@podger_minisyou show that old army as something they didn’t support for 20 years but in 2017 that was a completely legal group of units to field so you could play them competitively
@@podger_ministhose were legal for like 30 years. They had been increasing marine size the entire time. They did that like 5 times functionally not much changed but they did ad new stuff with primaris. So they already showed they can make marines bigger and not change rules and can add variations on marines like centurions. Most primaris marines are marine with bolt gun or rocket launcher or plasma gun. They changed the bolt gun like 4 times without changing its rules but for some reason this time changing things was different.
@@podger_minisCompetitive viability wasn't mentioned until you brought it up here. Being legal to use in all games including comp just means they're capable of being used, hell there's plenty of supported models that plenty wouldn't consider competitively viable to many. Just let people play with the expensive models they bought isn't a big ask, I think a company worth millions is capable of updating a handful of numbers on a unit sheet without breaking the bank.
I’m not a fan on how GW handled the data sheets across all factions going to legends. As a Necron player 10th edition has been nothing but an anxious roller coaster ride of not only losing probably some of the most amount of data sheets compared to a lot of other factions but GW also will probably keep doing so has been tweaking the rules for Necrons, with the majority of them being negative changes. So without explaining or giving us any warning, they just silently removed Anrakyr the traveler, Nemessor Zandrek, Vargard, Obyron, and the Necron Lord. And then from the launch of 10th edition, Games Workshop kept making some very significant and impactful changes to the worlds post Codex. Reanimation protocols took a hit, especially relating to Warriors who have a special rule called “Thier number is legion” which used to replace the D3 rolled whenever you triggered reanimation protocols with a D6. Then for some strange reason, GW changed Warriors so that their rule for triggering reanimation protocols no longer replaced the standard D3 with a D6. They now use a D3 just like every other normal Necron unit despite lowering their characteristics, across-the-board in 10th edition. They lost their 3+ armor save and they lost their 3+ ballistic skill and they’re basically 4’s across the board. In fact, games workshop actually post Codex changed one of the warrior weapons, which is the new 12” Gauss Reaper and reduced its strength from five down to four, further turning off players from using that unit. Even when they dropped the points so they were 10 points a model for a unit of 20., that’s 200 points of nerfed garbage and then because they decided the technomancer should be able to lead a third unit after banning all Crypteks from attaching to Lychguard… Because it turns out attaching a character that gives out a 5+ feel no pain on top of the Lychguard’s current 4++, and overlords were also allowed to join the unit which activated the Lich guard special ability called guardian protocols, which made the unit minus one to wound as long as the overlord was still attached to the unit. It was a mess. Now the technomancer is back and able to lead Wraiths which might actually be worse… So what did they do? They did something using a new term which perfectly describes when games workshop doesn’t quite balance the mistakes they made by allowing certain combinations to exist. I guess we like to call that over correcting. For example, when they allowed the technomancer to join Wraiths, it was a significant boost to one attachment and that was the Canoptek Court. So what ends up happening is that GW decides to increase the points costs of Wraiths which punishes all the other detachments. Honestly, I was under the impression they were going to increase the cost of the technomancer… but apparently I spoke to some end of the next balance data slate showed us eight points increase on several units, especially every cryptek, most saw a increase of 10 to 15 points and the 65 point technomancer became 85 points, which further put the dream of the unit of 20 Warriors being led by a technomancer to bed. The reanimator , the technomancer, the several limitations placed on resurrection orbs, The Nerf to the warrior bonus to reanimation, Ghost Arks triggering reanimation on a unit of warriors within 3 inches got Nerf to once per turn. It’s a mess .. and lastly I’ll say this a couple of weeks before games workshop sent all of the data sheets, except for one to legends right after I purchased a Tesseract Ark was really upsetting… Somebody mentioned that Necrons are one of the few if not only faction that had loss of units after their ninth edition refresh going into 10 edition. When you think about it 4 characters, and 4+ units from Forge world, which includes the Tombstalkers which were big fan favorites because of the fact that they were just giant centipedes, and it was the closest thing to a monster we could use, I personally grabbed a Tesseract ark because it was similar in design to an annihilation barge, except it was one of the few vehicles in the action that had a flamethrower, and not only that it rolled a D6 +3 to determine how many attacks it generated that turn. Gone all gone no explanation and I was sold something that I can never use in competitive play two weeks before they decided to put it into legends. In the meantime, we still have two epic C’Tan which are made of fine cast as well as Trazyn.
To your point about the new Sanguiniry guard going to be looked back on as a positive is pretty much cope, they replaced an ostentatious kit for a very bland and forgettable kit. If it were the standard jump infantry it would be fine but it's so boring for the armour thats supposed to be very ornate. It doesn't live up to the lore and people are annoyed about that. And the faces are supposed to be mirrors of Sanguinius's visage and they are very chunky African styled faces which is also kinda far away from Sanguinius's appearance.
I thought the heresy conversions they did for Sanguinary guard were much better. Only problem is no mk 7 helmets, but they should be pretty easy to get hold of
@@paulyg405 I guess it's down to taste, I'm not a BA player my friends both play them and they didn't like them but they are probably a bit bitter and old if I'm being perfectly honest 😅
My main issue with the cycling out of the firstborn is I feel there is a loss of style. I was never that fond of primaris as a base though they have grown on me a little, and some releases like the templars and dark angels have been phenomenal in terms of retaining the style of it all. I do feel however that some primaris releases, like the new sanguinary guard as the current example, are very bland and lose quite a lot. Imo they should probably make new larger upgrade kits for each founding chapter at least, maybe even less chapter specific upgrades and more just general aesthetics. Also really want a kit that is a bunch of firstborn helmets you can get separately from a kit and use for primaris, but thats a personal itch so to speak.
This seems to be a fairly recent thing mind as I noticed if you look at the models from Indomitus they're really quite detailed and have a ton of personality - like that Bladeguard captain with a whole skeleton stuck to his shield, or the Judiciar. And yeah the Dark Angels were cool, so I wonder if the Blood Angels were just a swing and a miss. Although Lemartes and Astorath I think are awesome.
I appreciate the video and your opinions on the new models and removing of the old. While i agree, updating the old models are a great thing, i loved dante's new model, i love Lemartes and Astorath's new models. However, the new sanguinary guard are a straight downgrade. Your opinion on how they look doesn't matter, you are paying more money for less detailed and a lesser number of models. Even if they're bigger, it is a straight downgrade, even if you dislike the old models. Also, i agree, they should update the old models, However not being able to play beloved units such as the Librarian dreadnought in competitive for YEARS while they update it isn't cool or right at all. We have nothing to replace that models role with now. Which is unfair, not not right at all. We haven't gotten any new replacement for it, this refresh is a straight downgrade. Other than Lemartes and Astorath, we have only lost things, details, models, ect.
Best 40k channel I know of. Sorry if my comment on the last video seemed cunty, I know the painting stuff takes more effort and I’m sure others were asking for it, I do think your grounded view on the hobby is rare in this era of hobby content though and personally I think it’s where your videos shine the most, easy to make or not. You cover the pros and cons of the hobby from the perspective of someone who wants the hobby to succeed and grow instead of trying to farm views whatever the cost. Thanks for all the vids and I look forward to seeing more soon mate 👍🏼
I’m not a fan of space marines but honestly how hard could it had been to make a dual firstborn/primaris kit with an easy head or shoulder plate swap??
That is what they are doing, kind of. If you look at some of the recent kits they describe them in a fairly ambiguous way. If the word "Primaris" didn't exist I guarantee people wouldn't be as mad.
It's a reductive way to look at things though. Generally I'd rather buy those 3 new ones than the old 5 - may not be true for the sanguinary guard this time round tho!
@@podger_minis let me repeat myself, we lost an overpriced 5 squad kit and reduced it to a 3 man for the same price if not more. I just buy recast or secondhand these days, never a cent for you Englishmen
@@AuramiteEX or maybe people need to drop the idea that they little plastic army men are some luxury product. hell most other parts on the mini wargaming, and model kit hobby give you far more and better plastic then GW.
I doubt that Gabriel Seth is coming back. Either that or Games Workshop has no concept of their reputation or doesn't care (or even need to care(?)) about it. Why would they take the reputational hit of getting rid of Seth if they had a re-release in mind? Just support him for another few balance passes. I really don't think its that hard if they wanted to try, especially with their cash resources. Maybe the "finecast machine" has finally broken beyond repair, and they just simply can't make him anymore, and don't know when they'll get to him, but they're not saying anything like that. Most of the new sculpts are pretty great, but I think a lot of the irritation comes from the weird splitting of the range and what people see as corporate moves to cajoul people into buying new stuff by changing weapon loadouts and making it difficult to even proxy primaris marines with re-based first born. The Sanguinary Guard and Sanguinor were dissapointing releases because they were obviously lazy. Not lazy individual sculpturers, but very tight rules on time for creating certain models so the cost of design is as low as they can get away with. It takes far less sculpting time to recreate an old pose, and I believe the Sanguinary Guard have poses taken from the new jump pack intercessors, and they clearly just didn't want to invest the time in doing wings for them. Combine that with simplifying the new rules, eliminating all the datasheets you can get away with, and you can save money on cheaper balance passes. It just looks like they want to make maximum money for minimum effort. That's why they like upgrade sprues so much. Shrinkflation or price gouging, while making old products basically redundant, then use the IP to tug peoples passion for the universe and get them buying the new models. Some of the AoS kits they retired were only 6 years old, which is pretty young when you look at Warp Spiders. They are also often rubbish at communication, the AoS retirements were comunicated badly, and people initially thought they were losing a lot more than they were. They are very good at hype and fomo and then often garbage at the serious talk when actual customer relations is required. Sorry rant over!
I think what we're possibly seeing here is their need to phase out resin kits meeting their inability to meet capacity while constantly releasing new plastic ones all the time. They just announced BA was the last codex this year and they've been in the process of getting another factory built for some time now so I think a lot of this has less to do with their ability to balance the game and more to do with their ability to produce plastic. Gabriel Seth hadn't been available for ages though and went made-to-order over a year ago, so I doubt he is as popular as people are making out.
I have often wondered whether GW will eventually get rid of the single weapons teams (hellblasters, infernus, desolation), and repackage them with the gimmick of having different weapons in the same squad. Much like what the first born tactical squad is like. I am really intrigued what the solution for chaos marines will be when they eventually retire the first born tanks. Although,considering the Baal predator survived and warp spiders still haven't been updated, the first born tank might stick around a while longer.
Sisters also use a lot of Rhino-based vehicles so I don't think that the base is going anywhere soon. But as soon as GW can fully replace it with some crappy tacticool grav version (pretty much already done with the gladiators) they will do it.
all they would have to do is cut and paste the new heresy firstborn tanks and add spiky bits. So I could totally see them being replaced relatively easily.
I think you've made a quality video, which I personally disagree with. But to not repeat points made in previous comments, I never understood why the need to "take the business point of view". You mention Games Workshop needing to sell even more new models, which I think is a perspective "forced upon" (or highly encouraged upon) by businesses upon consumers. They're already one of the most profitable businesses, especially in this hobby it's actually shocking how much they profit. What I think we need to ask ourselves is what's it like from the customer perspective. And, what I feel like the issue is from that perspective, is that the new models suck balls. It's just boring. I don't want to buy assault intercessors and paint them black - I want brand new, primaris, shiny models with tons of options. I want to buy unique models - I already could've painted my intercessors black, I don't need a 20 euro shoulder pad collection to make them death company. To expand upon that, I don't care about the new desolation squad, infernus nor hellblasters - I don't see the point in having 3 separate boxes for buying basic marines with special weapons (Firstborn did it so much better with devastators that had ALL the special weapons in a box). Or even, having 3 separate dreadnought boxes that come down to a difference in weapon loadout. I really don't care how profitable or not profitable it is for them, their specific reasons of production for doing it - it's just annoying when I'm a customer. I want to have extra bits to put on bases or magnetize my models. From a customer perspective, the primaris range has been bad due to too much segregation where none is needed, and way too little options and segregation when it's needed.
@@podger_minis I agree, but that's also not the point I was making. My point was that as I customer I purely view how good the minis look to me and much they appeal to me as the customer. I don't really care if they have massive profits if the customers have a really great experience. My point was specifically tied to my personal gripe that I see alot on the internet is people speaking of the business side of GW and the reasons behind their decisions when we don't know (we speculate) their buisness models, plans or goals. The only thing that matter is the customer perspective. You can see simply how well received the CSM truescale was, as opposed to the primaris refresh - it's not about which is more profitable that causes any conversation, it's about the customer experience. As such, what is the point of even trying to speculate on what's good for their business since we don't run their business.
@@ivanposao2792 primaris marines probably sell somewhere in the range of 10-100x better than chaos marines so anecdotes of who likes what better isn't the same as what drives business. Primaris was an experiment, in terms of sales it has been a massive success. People clearly love and buy them, myself included
@@podger_minis I agree with you on that - but that's not my point My point was, why are you trying to justify what is GW thinking about, their sales, what they're trying to achieve? You, nor I, have access to their plans, ambitions and schedules/roadmaps. From a consumer perspective I'd like to bring out 2 points you've mentioned as an example of what I'm referring to: - you mention the stormcast refresh - they put up alot of models to be discontinuined, which basically just got a prettier version of the same unit a few months later. You've mentioned that as a possible example, but I'd describe it as a fairly negative consumer example - again, I do not care what their plans and ambitions and production schedules are (as I don't have access to that information), but what i do know is that they've left a bad stain on AOS and Stormcast as a faction because they close not to disclose which models are just being left out of the game completely - and which are being just refreshed - you mention the Blood Angels refresh - and speak often how they will get new models - how do you know this? Again, lets put it in the context of what we do know now (not speculate on what could happen later) - the army lost 3 unique dreadnoughts, 1 unique kit (death company) was transformed into an upgrade sprue/paint job and lost some HQs. Not even speaking of firstborn vs primaris expansion, the army lost alot of options and it's uniqueness. This is enough to leave the army aside and not continue the hobby. To be clear, I am not making the point here to argue with you or anything similar - but I feel like sometimes GW consumers are huffing a bit of copium. I fail to see how GW is a tough spot where they need to recreate firstborn into primaris (which is presented as a difficult task) - but obviously it's extremely appealing to the consumers. I fail to see why it's presented as a bad thing that people are frustrated as a customer because their models are removed from sales/the game - because "it will be back in an edition or two", but I feel as a customer, I don't really care too much if they're redo it in a year, because my friends and I have time and passion to play *now*, who knows if I'll care about 40k enough in two-three editions when they get around doing decent death company because they planned their models in such a way.
The thing with Gabriel Seth is his model hasn't been available for over a year, and the last time it was available it was on made to order. So in that case I don't see why it was even remotely a surprise they dropped him. Funny you should show a 2nd ed army though, I have a ton of metal firstborn stuff and was tempted to write up a list and paint it retro style.
I started playing WHFB back in the very early 90's & continued playing right up until they discontinued metal minis/the destruction of the old world/cancellation of WHFB in favour of AoS. I also hated finecast models & a metal mini feels value for money, plastic doesn't. So I Just stopped dead as i had no interest in being forced into a new game requiring an entire restart as i had quite asubstatial investment in fanasy. I had played almost every army to an extent. I even stopped playing competitively. I won Best General 2 years running (2003/4)at the Bloodstorm/Irish National Championships tournament & regularly competed in The Northern Wasters internal tournaments which happened monthly at that time. I returned to 40k during the pandemic & started collecting 9ed in a serious way. So since with 10ed GW seem to be butchering my armies again i'll be staying playing 9ed since i no longer have any interest in playing competitively or with anyone other than friends.They can discontinue models all they want in the current meta it'll make no difference to me or my friends who are sticking with 9ed or playing HH as it more resembles the game we used to play. Any modles i buy now will be used to fill out 9ed armies. Also the new Sang Guard look like shit & are just plain boring. They should have given them the same jump pack as the new Astorath so they still had winged jump packs that looked better than the old ones. As it is as soon as i saw the new models i immediately went out & bought a unit of the old models. So less than 5 years after coming back to the hobby i'm already ready for ditching it again for anything other than just messing around with my mates. They've also botched the new "Old World" release by shelving many popular armies. I primarily played Chaos, Dark Elves, Skaven, Liardmen & Vampire Counts & they had shelved all of them except Chaos. I'll do a few of the factions like Tomb Kings, Orcs & Goblins & Chaos because i'll be able to amalgamate them with my old armies but i suspect they'll botch this game more. GW currently seem determined to drive their old gamers out of the hobby.
Games workshop : "Dont use 3rd party bits if you wanna compete in Tournaments" also Games workshop : "So the new Sanguinary Guard dont have wings and look Super Generic. Please dont use 3rd party bits to make them look like they're supposed to look if you want to use them in Tournaments"
To me I think the upgrade sprue was one of the bits that just really encapsulated my feelings on the update: if they had made one like the gorgeous black templar one with all the flavourful pieces, or the dark angel one which was pretty good, I think you might have been able to maintain that blood angels feel throughout your force. But with the current items on the sprue, the tiny alterations these pieces make end up with the marines simply looking like ultramarines in red (and honestly I feel ultramarines have lost what little identity they had too). The force doesn't feel special anymore without using 3rd party bits and some greenstuff. I'm lucky to still have some of the older kits to sprinkle bits in from. Wish I'd picked up a few more of the old kits before they went, as I've been looking to build a Badab force which is looking a little unlikely now. Sorry for the blogpost, love your videos.
I feel like this would actually make the upgrade sprues worth something. They feel so barebones. No real amount of embossed shoulder pads to make full squads of marines (2 gravis shoulders per sprue? Not even enough to outfit the smallest gravis squad of 3. You need to use the pads off of both sprues and are still left with 1, that's nuts.) And other thematic bits and even custom weapon options. You could add so much in the terms of themed additional heads, arm swaps, other doodads. But they just... Dont. Then you end up getting the box sets and they overinflate the cost of them with sub-par upgrade sprues that most people won't even use or just re-sell.
don't forget the Heresy kits for your Badab force, Mk 4 will be along over the next couple of years if you don't like the current kit, and I would bet my house that we haven't seen the last of Mk 7
Introducing Primaris was a huge mistake. With size creep, the SM range was getting larger without erasing "10,000 years" of SM lore. The Primaris story does not make sense and was completely not needed. The size increase did not even "fix" scale problems with the game. Primaris are simply a watered down version of a much better idea. Thank the warhammer godz for 30K. The new "bell bottom boys" are all bubbly and simple looking. They really do look like "Guiliman's Ogrin". Floating tanks? Mario Karts? Just horrible. The new monopose San Guard suck, they are a great example of all things "Primaris".
the moldelling quality isn't everything. aethstetic quality is much more important and in my opinion, a lot of the primaris range (excluding things like the new BT and DA releases) just shows a degradation of the aethstetic. gw seem to be scared to get weird and and adventurous with 40k as they've grown, and it's a real shame
"It has to be, right?" That line sums it all up. You don't even sound sure about what you're saying. Like you're trying to justify this to yourself, but you still can't fully manage to. Because I think no, they're not going to replace everything that was lost, and just hoping they will in 5 years isn't enough for people. They could have just kept the old versions around until the updated version was released, if that was the case. You're hoping and hoping and saying we should be happy in the meantime but that isn't worth anything. I like legends, but it's absolutely no replacement for actual support. Also I disagree, the terminator bits on an upgrade sprue is still a downgrade. You lose the unique legs, different chest pieces, different arms or helmets, so now instead of a whole squad where every member has clear iconography, it's at best 2/5. You say there's no reason they couldn't do more of these upgrades, which is true, but they haven't done that, and hoping they will at some point in the future isn't reassuring in the slightest. I appreciate you trying to find some positivity in this, because we need it, but at the same time you can't hide that's it's still mostly losses and downgrades, and we have zero indication that it'll improve. I can be hopeful, but it doesn't actually change the situation
Even a few months ago they discontinued the Exalted Champion from the chaos codex which i liked as a cheaper option of hq after the chaos lord's ability was nerfed.
For me, a lot of the problem boils down to this. 1: legends units can't be used in official tournaments which is a problem because 2: everyone at your FLGS will be playing matched play because some of them like to play in tournaments which is a problem because 3: legends units dont receive balance updates so in regular matched okay games you will often wind up playing with what is funtionally a value/points deficit if you use many legends units. Being a player who uses legends units means you have to spend extra time searching an already niche space trying to find people willing to play casual/narrative warhammer, which seems like an oddly hard thing to do compared to when I started playing in 3rd.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ravenwing is having their rules in the 10th edition codex still. However the Furioso kit has been removed completely, which means we are less likely to see any sort of replacement for it. Which sucks, because BA got 0 exiting kits this edition, and people just moved to 3D printing their own stuff.
Ravenwing got gutted pretty bad by the loss of standard bikes, Landspeeders (and our special character speeder) On the flip side the new DA models are all fantastic
Upgrading models is good. Making new models is good. Not selling old models is understandable. That would be alot of production line space. Not balancing old models for competitive is fine too. Refusing to balance old models that cost hundreds in a rulebook that costs a hundred dollars for casual play while pretending you can still use them with the awful legends rules and saying don't even think about using them in comp is what I have a problem with. I think it's very reasonable to expect to be accounted for when paying so much for rules. If the models weren't treated as premium luxury lifetime goods, Or the rules were free, OR GW openly transitioned to a models first company without trying to eat their cake and have it too by trying to keep everyone using their rules and using the rules to drive model sales, I would be alot more ok with it.
I’ve been playing warhammer 40 k from 1995 till now I think the fist born rock I still run them just not competitive games reg games sure run your fist born👍🏾
First they took warlord traits and relics. Then they took detachments(heavy support, fast attack etc) Then they took psychic. And finally they cull our ranges. Yeah tenth is getting pretty boring as a game to simplified for no gain.
I didn’t mind the 9th edition primaris starter minis but I don’t like a lot of the tacticool minis. They just rub me the wrong way. I also don’t like the marines going to grav tanks. It’s stupid. They should’ve just done bigger minis
I also don’t mind the sternguard. Just not a fan of the blood angel release or a lot of the primaris range especially the vehicles and the weird ankles
Grey Knights will be refreshed next edition probably. The Codex is due early mid next year i believe so they may get something then. Eldar getting an Aspect Warrior/Pheonix Lords refresh next year. Custodes have already been released this edition so not before next edition but as i've recently (this edition) bought a full armies worth of Custodes that are still in their boxes i'd quite like to build & play with them before they get updated/shelved.
@@snakeplissken6649 Like half the Custodes line is Forge World, no? Would be nice to see it updated. Just saying, it's not necessarily the case GW has to bring back firstborns to have stuff to do, there's an enormous amount of models that are 20+ year old sculpts that could be refreshed. Even though Orks just got new models there's still a bunch of old stuff they have and their new models are monopose.
@@9e7exkbzvwpf7c Ok i'll agree with you that the Forge World stuff would be good as normal models but i don't want them doing to Custodes what they recently did with Stormcast Eternals & Space Marines & discontinue half the model range just to sell us new stuff. How about they just give us the option of new stuff while leaving the current stuff alone? As a long time Eldar player with an army built mainly using the old Craftworlds Codex i can't wait to get an updated range. To sit alongside my old Craftworld. So i'll have 2 Eldar armies then. Something new that i'll maybe paint in their traditional colours with my old self designed Craftworld using it's own colour scheme.
Thanks for your thoughtful take, and I do agree we need more positivity in the hobby but also reclaim a bit of a DIY perspective - GW are gonna do what they do, but that doesn't mean we have to as well. I think it's time for casual gamers to reclaim a bit of ownership over the systems the way we used to in the Oldhammer days. House rules, adding in rules for cancelled models, coming up with your own ways to play and finding others who are keen. Making up missions, kitbashing models, etc. Where I think there's inevitably some disappointment is for those of us who would have preferred to see a rescaling and refresh of the firstborn models. They are doing this in Heresy and by and large the models are fantastic, but of course they aren't quite the same and not everyone wants to play Heresy or stop playing their favourite marines competitively in 40k. Maybe one day there will be a legacy game for fans of the OG 40k style that can scratch some of these itches.
Don't defend them. GW removing a ton of their models knowing it will tick people off is inexcusable. The excuse of them not having new things to release also doesn't apply IMO. They can go and create new things and release those instead (15+ resin, or cool new things to supplement armies, or heck, new factions). The game of customizing and hobby-ing is becoming commercialized tabletop e-sports which is a shame. The refreshes look aweful and lazy as well. Looking at you new Coteaz and anything primarus.
This sort of raises a good point but I think the rate they want to release new stuff and the amount of stuff they want to keep supporting at once (rules and products) is incompatible. From this perspective they have to remove stuff
I have half of those models from second edition. They look bad since I didn’t know how to thin my paints or use a wash or dry brush. I could out down a goblin green base though. Very happy to have new stuff to paint. Very happy to have a local community to play games with. Very balanced games and rules make it so you can win with any faction.
“They aren’t bad models” The hell they are lol they are weirdly tilted and all on their funny tactical rocks. Bland and lazy, and worse they just really miss the mark on what the sanguinary guard were and what made them stand out. I’m just glad I don’t collect or play blood angels seeing that release and hope they don’t do crap for other refreshes. They showed what a good refresh could be for things like chaos warriors and black Templar/dark angels so this is pretty unacceptable. The smaller scale of the models has nothing to do with their quality- the pewter metal is beautiful with so much more heart and interest put in. Comparing the old sanguinor and his purity seals alone to the new one shows how boring the digital sculpting looks. Quite frankly seeing this garbage release makes me want to make a 3rd- 5th Ed force- I’ll take good looking models consistency over consistency of just scales up
Taking the rules and support side out of it, I think one of the biggest issues older players such as myself have is that although the increase of scale Primaris brought was welcome, the blandness that came with the new range is not. Since collecting Blood Angels since 2010, to open my first box of intercessors and to find every single breastplate is exactly the same, wound me up to no end. And I have been very reluctant to purchase the newer range due to this. Even very detailed models like the Bladeguard Veterans have parts on each that are almost identical, where as an old set of plastic veterans such as the Sternguard had so many parts and options you had spares you could use to customise other parts of your army and make it yours. Others in the comments have mentioned that had GW simply upped the scale of Firstborn marines in 2017 and kept the quality of the options high, initial grumblings would have quickly faded away. However, GW went out of their way to change the aesthetic of Space Marines to emphasise the difference between new and the old, almost breaking the universes' logic to do so. We all know why, to make money of course. But decreasing the overall quality of the kits along with it will hurt GW in the long run. Almost as soon as the new Blood angel sets were announced, I saw a former Golden Demon winning youtuber show off 3rd party conversion sets for Blood Angels and they were far and beyond what the new releases offer. The market seems to be speaking for itself there. I don't expect anything to change, but I'll still complain like the old man of the hobby regardless.
Another few reasons why they wanted to to this. 1. Naming. Alot of names cannot be trademarketed and copywrite was impossible. Primaris Impulsor. Now that compared to a Predator Tank. 2. Model scale. Bigger models are easier to paint. Easier painting makes it more accessable. 3. Legacy models takes time to upscale and then produce in quantity, they can't just give us 10,000,000 new models on sprue. It takes time to produce. 4. The lawsuits forcing Games Workshop to stop kitbashing because the lawsuits... 5. Money of course. They produce models first, ways to paint the models etc etc.
I think people need to change their perspective on Legends units. If you aren't playing in tournaments, I don't think it should really matter. Some events even allow Legends I think? The biggest annoyance with it, to me at least, is that now these models will get very difficult to get your hands on. Like you said, we did get a lot of good sculpts (the characters). Blood Angels are moving from an army with a ton of details to not so much, and I think that's a big reason why people are upset about losing the old sculpts. The new Sanguinary Guard and Death Company are great examples.
No one is stopping anyone from playing older editions of 40k. Hell, people could host tournaments in older editions if people like them so much. Cutting down on range bloat is really good for the game, and not just from a competitive point of view. It allows for more fresh ideas to be tried with new kits and new rules. Besides, they supported these kits for how many decades? Feels like oldmarine players got their money's worth.
God i hate competition play and that grind for a 'perfect' or balanced game system. Go and play chess you weirdos. It should just be fun, with fun models! Love your grounded, realistic and humanistic view on 40k. People forget that GW is made up of real people and not super villains. Ive been playing older versions of 40k in recent months and it seems like people forget that you can play whatever rules you want!
I'm saying this as someone who's known of warhammer for years but never collected an army until recently; do away with the first born models. Part of why I only was into the lore was because I thought the first born space marines were goofy and dumb looking. It wasn't until the primaris models hit the market that I was sold on making an army. In lore, they could have just had Cawl discover an STC to make better armor and that's why the new armor looks the way it does but instead GW went the "try and please everyone" route. It fucked with the lore, it made everyone mad, they should have just said "they found some of the golden age armor" and left it at that. The proportions on all of the primaris models are perfect and what I always pictured a space marine SHOULD look like and not the frumpy first born look. So we are currently stuck with the lore and everyone pissed their firstborn models are being phased out. Maybe GW can sell a base upgrade to bring the firstborn models to the same height (basically give em a stool) as the primaris models. Lorewise, what's done is done. The writers have borked it with Cawl committing tech heresy (not to mention the introduction of tyranids means there's a force that must be dealt with by all factions or else literally everyone dies as opposed to the different factions fighting each other)
People need to stop living in the nostalgia of whatever edition they started. GW needs to evolve and they've done so at a fairly slow rate. They're not coming to your house to take away your precious firstborn. You and your friends don't like 10th? Cool, go play 8th. I don't think competitive players will complain because, at the end of the day, they're all about winning tournaments. They'll adapt to the changes and meta. Upgrade sprues are the future. Once all Primaris models are released I think we'll find upgrade sprues being more prominent.
We disagree a LOT lol. But there's a lot in here I agree with. You sort of lionizing the new sculpts and framing the old sculpts as "just ok" or "kind of crap" is way off the mark ofc. The old models are usually amazing and especially considering the context of when they are made. In retrospect you can reduce their popularity by comparing them to what's better in modern models for sure. But you need to not be disingenuous about how good they are overall. Plenty of your points are really non-controversial but not all. There's some ways that you frame them that aren't addressing the best critiques of the issues between what was good before and what can be done well in the future. So it really needs better discussion. Still don't know what happened to our conversation from last year but maybe one day there will be a proper one again.
Audio quality is so bad I don't think I can put it on the channel unfortunately. However I've started a monthly podcast so we can go again if youd like and I now have a suitable format for this sort of debate (monthly podcast). DM on discord if you're keen. And sorry about that!
@@podger_minis Understandable. It would be great tbh. While I think we have some deep disagreements on specifics I really do feel there's a very constructive conversation around the various topics we've sparred on. I believe it could help a lot of other people focus their efforts better when praising or criticizing GW.
A pick me GW channel XD gtfo, let the 3D printers run and use whatever rules make you happy. Don’t listen to shills like this that tell you the models you love and have put work into don’t mean anything. New models and reimagining old ones are awesome but ripping out all the character and everything that makes them unique is a watering down of the setting.
Nice straw-man. Might wanna read my comment again, I said making new models and reimagining old ones is awesome.. just don’t rip out what makes them unique.
Podger, I really agree with your points. You have put into words some of my thoughts on modern warhammer. I love more positive videos on it too as the discussion on warhammer is so often so negative.
Im gonna go off into speculation territory; eventually IMO we will see upscaled firstborn models to coincide with the Scouring/10k year leadup to modern 40K...it just makes sense from a nostalgia bait & money-making standpoint with GW. A lot of the lore/storytelling is left in the open so that creative decisions can be made to fill in the things. Cynicism aside - it makes too much sense
To be real with you, its a bit of a cope to be so sure in the idea that one of the most consumer hostile companies in the business will do a good thing, even more so considering the fact that they could have easily kept selling and supporting the current models for the years to come. The gap of models just isnt justified, there is not enough new stuff for everyone, and justifying this with "there is nothing to release otherwise" has to be some sort of logical fallacy because it makes NO sense for them to not just leave something be until the make a new release. Your stormcast example is proof that they DIDNT have to remove the models before replacing them, not a justification for doing so Also reminding me that "just because I put in effort and bought these models and may want to play with them doesnt mean the giant corporation has to respect me" actually kinda makes me want to boycott them... Saying my models have a lifespan of what will be supported looses a lot of meaning considering some xenos models are like 15 years old or older at this point without a refresh and are still being sold, for ever more ridiculous prices "its a bit of a change" has to be the biggest understatement I ever heard regarding the new SG and saying its "just design choice" and not a loss or "they arent bad just different" is again cope, and a huge cope of optimism tbh I am a kitbasher with just about 5 years of experience, I can happily take the new models and add all the bits back from the old ones I can make them better just like you said. But to do so I have to resort to buying parts from recasters or 3D printing, I am forced to do something GW hates to fix their own fuckup for them so I can enjoy the hobby the way I like. And again you say that "more people will buy this" as if thats an inherently good thing, why exactly? GW is making record profits anyway. And they keep raising prices anyway, we dont get anything back as consumers by them getting more successfull. As a community we are not grateful for the amazing refreshes we get because they are sprinkled on top of some delicious mud pies that GW expects us to somtimes swallow after removing the actually good food. And no the aspects of change we obsess over arent small. And exactly as you say, the things we can get that make the hobbying aspect awesome are the things GW forbids from competitive play, I cant take my kitbashed army with some recasts and the most amazing 3D prints and the most lovingly combined multi media art works I have done since art school to a GW store and play some games, because they will see that that they lost out like 200€ from me and that is grounds enough for them to force their employees to prevent me from playing there like that. I CANT do whatever I want outside of my own house This whole video is cope, and its okay, we all have to cope somehow, but dont cope by pretending everything is fine please, that has to be one of the least healthy ways, I mean come on, you literallly say "we're not far off" its "oh just a little more" just a little more hnadling this bad stuff then GW will do good again, its like listening to someone who is in a toxic relationship. Saying GW is the hand that feeds us is not helping me change that perspective. All that said I would do a lot of things to get this kind of optimism, I am too jaded from just 5 years, Idk what people who have been into this for 20 or 30 years feel, or if they even still CAN feel something... and the way you said all this, in my mind it conjures an image of me pulling a friend by the collar so he doesnt run into a damn train, not some obescene yelling fit of rage in which I am appalled by some hitherto unknown fucked up belief he holds. And I did absolutely feel like liking the video at the end, so there's that, I mean you got me to write out all these rebuttals to your opinions and I still sit through everything instead of calling you a shill and disliking.
Primaris/8th edition got me into 40k the models looked amazing while the firstborn squat marines looked like shit. Sure they have their “Charm” but that charm is just another word for looking like shit. Horus Heresy and Space Marine Hereoes Firstborns though, now those look great give us more of them.
My models don't have a lifespan, if GW tries to invalidate them I'm going back to playing 6th ed Fantasy and GW can get stuffed, 40k players just need to stop dancing to GW's tune so easily, go back to an old edition they like, and stick with that
you sound new to the hobby and with youth comes inexperience and naivety. But respect your older gamers whom devoted more time and energy to the game than you have. Stop buying Gw . They have forgotten the essence of the original warhammer!
You are part of the problem. There is so much wrong with this video and your takes that im honestly at a loss for where to start. When did you even start playing? How much are they paying you?
Glad they have almost replaced the old Squat Marine range. I think GW made a mistake trying to tiptoe around the subject. Hopefully we can all move on now and enjoy the new kits and the future.
Primaris lore is stupid. They should’ve just made a new mark of armor and called it a day. It’s almost as retarded as the end times but I guess they’re just a bunch of spazzes
To everyone saying that you are being forced to buy Primaris; you are not being forced to buy anything. You can proxy, use legends rules, or just play an older edition. Those options are available. Don't sling around the phrase "mindless consumer" when you can't think to not buy stuff you don't like.
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2016: They're not replacing the old marines they still support them stop being so pessimistic
2024: They're phasing out your models and here's why it's a good thing
Well it’s almost been 10 years, business models change.
@@toadkillerdog4282 Shouldn't change for the worse.
@@Neothunder240 But they do sometimes. Just proxy your stuff or play with legends? Do you play competitive? If no, then it doesn't affect you. Living games change.
@@captaincorundum9788 "Just proxy" I don't want to be forced to proxy my entire army. I shouldn't have to. And of course it does affect everyone wether you play competitive or not. Those legends rules won't last another edition, just like it happened to the legends in AoS. Change doesn't mean replacing my army with a different thing I dislike and telling me I should be happy about it.
@@Neothunder240*better
Oldmarines look like shit
I remember them telling us that first borns wouldnt be going anywhere.
@@shanepatrick4534 first they came for my death watch, I didn’t speak out.
But then in imperial agents they removed the primaris kill team from death watch.
They have no idea what they are doing, just lots of day drinking going on there.
@@jkellyid yep, I also think they don’t care.
3/4 armies in one codex. What’s going on.
@@jkellyid I can't help but wonder they'll come up with in 10 years or so to replace the entire Primaris range.
And they didn't. For seven years. But no one pinky promised that they will be around until the heat death of the universe. The writing's been on the wall day 1.
I appreciate such a polite perspective from a newer player, but I think the ideas presented here miss a few important marks. First I'll say most of us are in agreement that the quality and scale of the primaris models is much better than that of the old firstborn, and the idea of moving the faction entirely into the new quality makes 100% sense. That isn't the issue - rather it is the invalidating of the old units entirely.
You showed a series of tactical marines starting from the Rogue Trader days (and I think even missed the 3rd ed update haha). Each time the marine line was upgraded, the new models were more detailed, better quality, and larger scale for a better more imposing figure. Yet no one complained at all because they were simply newer better versions of the same models - people COULD use their old tactical marines if that's what they had. And if the primaris revamp was simply that - that you had the Primaris Tactical Squad, the Primaris Devestator Squad, etc - then the community would have been excited finally getting True Scale marines.
But that isn't what happened. The primaris range was incredibly different - and itself got bloated very fast. Sure, we are getting some consolidation now (sternguard are universal, terminators are back, etc), but many firstborn units cannot function as their primaris counterparts (boxnoughts - which do arguably look better than the modern beer-belly ones lol, landspeeders, and when the predator goes that). Again, the range-bloat was a problem of their own making (such that they cannot even support all the Primaris units - try buying some Supressors haha - and they haven't really managed all the old marine niches correctly yet), so they never HAD to send Firstborn units off to Legends.
And the argument that it is "only competitive play" misses a lot. Firstly, the Index lists are not simply sub-optimal - they are pretty much unplayable. In 8th, 9th, and 10th GW has struggled with marines and each time marine units dropped 20-30% in points easily during the very first balance patch. Since Index units never get updated, that means playing a game where you're bringing like 1500pts to a 2000pt game - pretty much a guaranteed loss. So sure, officially you CAN put the models on the table, but it has been designed so that anyone who does quickly stops playing them. In addition, not all of these units even continue getting Legends support. Many factions have had units disappear entirely going into 10th (boy do I miss fielding my Ashmantle model), and even as of 9th I had to stop fielding my landspeeders because while Tornados with 2x multi-meltas or 2x flamers had been allowed for ages, they were not included as an option and thus are not even fieldable casually.
This is where we get to that lovingly painted 2nd ed picture you showed a few times. That list was totally playable with zero issue through 7th (despite upgraded versions of every single model there being printed, but not invalidating them), and continued to be playable through 9th. And when we spend years - decades - slowly building up and painting an army, that is not just the time and emotional investment, but a massive financial investment. Maybe you have the income to discard old models and buy new ones as they come out, and if so that is wonderful for you. But this game is so expensive - and continues to get more and more expensive - that most of us physically cannot just shelve 2k-4k worth of models and buy replacements. If GW shelved all firstborn units overnight and said "Primaris or bust," I would not buy any Primaris models - I would just stop playing the game because I cannot invest that heavily in it.
In fact, over the last year I have been double hit because the "new" range I had gotten into was Sigmar and I loved the Sacrosanct Stormcast chamber (warrior-priest/wizard vibes are super cool!) only to see the entire range relegated to Legends, and only for 1 year. Again, GW over-bloated the Stormcast range by releasing an entire new army's worth of units every edition in a way that pushed consuming but is unsustainable for a game. Yet again, no one is arguing that the new models don't look amazing. But so many of us have already invested so much money that we can't just go and buy an army's worth of the new pretty things whenever they get released.
So in conclusion, no one (who's being reasonable) is saying that GW shouldn't improve things and move on to nicer updated kits for their factions. What we're saying is update and provide occasional new units so that our collections aren't turned into shelf decorations (which let's be real, is not an acceptable response) so that we can play the game we love and feel confident in investing into the hobby. Because if we see that units we buy can be tossed aside even in less than a decade, then for these prices and time investment MANY of us just cannot interact with GW products and you'll see instead a hobby shift to things like 3D printing and One Page Rules (which will cause the long-term degradation of the GW IPs, which I would be sad to see).
I hope this elucidates that the issue isn't just some surface level cosmetic problem (outside of Phobos armor ;P), but a real financial and time investment problem that will guaranteed cause players to turn away from the hobby rather than embrace the new quality.
That’s like the most accurate review of what’s going on with hobby I’ve ever seen.
Probably I’m just too new to Warhammer to get it, but you explained the feeling I have been getting, which I was unable to put into words. Thank you.
Totally right. I’ve only started collecting since 8th edition because thats when I had the money. GW used to make armies that would be supported and playable for years with only minor adjustments. I’m probably going to sell my old models on eBay now. I’ve moved to the Horus heresy and I think I enjoy the community more. Shame that game is more expensive. I just 3D print.
GW exists to sell models. Their decision making as a company revolves around that.
Although some of these cases are a shame, I'm pretty sure you could still use/proxy the vast majority of these models. But also, someone with a pre-7th army wanting to use it in comp 10th is providing literally no income for GW while essentially draining their resources. I believe it is fair for there to be a natural lifespan, and 20+ years is pretty good going. I expect we'll see many primaris kits get a similar run
@@podger_minis That's fine, Gamesworkshop's existence and success is predicated on profit, that's completely fine. Invalidating old models would probably incentivise people to buy the new replacements, increasing profits but it feels bad to me as a consumer who has an emotional investment in this art project that I've poured years into. Using models as long term art projects has friction with a churn and burn, buy models to be meta competitive approach in a financial sense on the company balance sheet, but that's not my problem. I can just... not play Gamesworkshop stuff. It's up to the company to find the approach that maximises their return and naturally consumers will either accept it or leave, and they can do whatever they want. But I can also do whatever I want. I just hope that the middle ground maximises both the happiness of the consumer base and corporate but I just don't trust corporations to not try to completely maximise their returns through whales and therefore alienate the majority of their player base
Though not in the hobby long enough for this to be my path, I feel people with existing armies would provide income to GW. Rules and Codexes are sold every edition to provide some measure of profit. I got into the hobby a few years ago because there was such a wealth of lore already established. I feel like having a large existing community that provides a low steady income makes a platform for a company to entice new customers (to receive irregular higher incomes) and provide those new customers with an active player-base.
Gabriel Seth was right
Remember boys, Gabriel Seth is NOT suicidal, nor does he have any CP on his hard drive...be syre to remember that...
Games workshop could have done a 1 for 1 replacement of their kits.... instead, they went to effort to invalidate people's old collections, and your defending them
11:47 nah mate. I think they're like universally hated. This was such a downgrade in sculpts its unreal.
It all comes back to the problem of prioritising competitive play, over a fun game.
They have more than enough resources to make good rules for these characters
Absolutely. I think competitive should be 100% a separate game system so that GW can ruin the flavour and fun in their own little self-contained game
No. Its prioritizing selling selling selling over anything else. They could have kept the rules and people would just convert the models. We did that for what 40-50% of the models back in the day? GW said themselves that they are a models company, not a games company (which is riddiculous taking into consideration the name).
Play crusade then , 40k is like starcraft you have your balance comp part (with is very fun if you know game on higher level ) and the more less skill flor part in crusade who is like co op mission/campaign.
Both are fun but crusade unchained by balance needed for comp let you do silly fluff stuff ,want your chaos lord kill a warhound titan in one turn ?you can ,want to use bad unit and buff it to being good ?you can ,want play hh stuf /other legends ? you can
People are so blind by the loud core gamemode they forget abaut the more obscure better gamemode
This is why i apsolutly love horus heresy because the game has a shit ton of fun flavorful units and options
@@JerzyBaksinski Not necessarily about selling. Just making money.
And for GW having a competitive game probably makes more money.
Two reasons for what GW is doing
1: They got burned in losing their copyright/trademark lawsuit. So they made up names for new units that they could then own.
2: Space Marines make them the most money. It was time to get space marine players to buy a whole new army.
What specifically were the trademarks for? Names of characters and units in 3D Printing?
There is also the Contemptor Dreadnaught issue that happened. When the new model was released it was said it could be used in 40k, three months later it was moved to legends. GW cant keep their word for less than a year....
It's why a lot of people refuse to buy the Cerastus Knight. For all we know maybe it's getting Legends'd at the drop of the Knight codex or at the end of the edition.
They shot themselves in the foot with replacing the iconic spacemarine helmet design, new primaris look too sleek
i wouldnt have a problem with primaris if GW erent kick out firstborn units and force players to buy primaris boxes .
Or designed primaris to be direct 1 to 1 replacements
But instead they're like
Nah
Let's make gun specific squads and make them eldar but two wound and power armour
Do you play competitive? If you don't then these drops really don't affect you. Nobody is forcing you to buy new stuff.
@@captaincorundum9788 Legends rules aren't fun to play in casual. They're over-costed, less deep and don't cooperate with non legends rules well. You will need to homebrew rules or use a different system which Is a good solution IMO.
@@soupcake3092 That is entirely fair. I keep saying that 9th exists. That being said, nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything, and that is the crux of the idea I think
Historicals are probably a better bet with how GW has gone these days. Your French grenedier will always be a French genadier, your Panzer IV will always be a Panzer IV, your seleucid cataphract will always be a seleucid cataphract. GW are just going to keep making things and then getting rid of them to force people into buying twice and as the shareholders demand more and more profit each time the cycle comes round things will last for less time before they get squatted again.
Bolt action third edition comes out next month (after 8 years of second ed). Could be a good time for people to try something new with models what won't get squatted every few years and rules that don't totally change every 3 months.
There are lots of 3d printing options also for historical gaming.
Also generic fantasy/sci fi games which encourages using whatever models you wish are good for this too, such as Oathmark, Dragon Rampant, or Xenos Rampant
@@the98themperoroftheholybri33 Nice bit of Frostgrave/ Stargrave.
Your example with Stormcast is on point, everyone want to get a shiny new models, especially when they are cooler than old ones.
The thing is, this example could not be applied to the latest refreshes. Blood angels just got Ultramarines painted black and gold. Death Company should be sculpted by you to make them Death Company-ish. And Sanguinary Guard just should be 3d printed, because even kitbash of Assault intercessors with old SG bits are more Sanguinary Guard than the new models.
So if I`m paying stupid money I want for it to be a long-distance product, and I want it to be high quality product.
If they want to discontinue releases after 4 years why should I even bother? If a multimillionaire company can't compete with freelance designers in terms of quality of the product why should I pay twice the price?
Rhetorical question, but the answer to it tells why we are going to see fall of in the hobby if nothing would be changed.
I still don’t get why games workshop got rid of the death wing command squad when they could’ve easily ported it over using the new upgrade kit.
All they had to do was add an apothecary arm, and whatever other bits are used, and then include a Halberd for the champion and the ancient is not an issue.
Terminators and Scouts came back. They follow the Primaris design language. They're not inherently bad, and can be dealt with using old bits and a scalpel, but the fact they might come back doesn't mean they're going to look good. The aesthetic has been permanently maimed.
Terminators are identical to their firstborn counterpart. There just bigger.
@@lizadon0740 Identical? Nope. The proportions are different, and that isn't relative to scale. They're excessively bulky. Some crucial shapes are different. Look at the power fists. Look at the detailing on the bare heads. Primaris. The belt clasps. Look at the heavy flamer, the assault cannon etc. They look like generic sci-fi guns like the rest of the Primaris trash. If you think they're identical you're not looking remotely close enough.
Nah man, you are not goin way hard enough on GW as you should for some of their choices.
Look, there is nothing wrong with outright replacing models. Of course they should make things better stuff, but the issue that comes is truly just shit like the Death Company. Like bro, it is just black jumppack jump intercessors. They couldn't be bother to add all the detail the olds ones had?!
No, there is nothing wrong with demanding actual work. If you are paying for over price pieces of plastic, can they actually make it look fancy for what they are suppose to be.
And comes the true issue. The change of art. The style is legit getting worse with some of the newer models. The terminator chaplins, the "new" death company dreadnought, that new death company. We are losing gothic edge to some models for just basic science fiction at least for space marines. Which wouldn't be so bad, if you didn't look at age of sigmar and see all of it going there.
No. We can demand for more. More options, more flair, more detail. That is what makes 40k, 40k!
You can't just say "you can just buy the old kit on ebay". What the fuck kind of non-argument is that?
I think the problem there is that the design team for 40k is clearly less passionate than, say, the design team for AoS. Who seem to be pumping out non-stop bangers, while 40k gets wing flaps.
I do not really mind about the models being replaced, but fucking replace them, dont just "legends them", just watch half of youtube, the tutorials are all for models that are no longer avilable.
might be fine for first born, but then you look at any other army that gets legends and we KNOW there is no way in hell we will ever see our favorite models come back, even upsized
10th Edition, the edition where I quit for good, plus the prices, that doesn't help either.
Games workshop should allow and support using old kits for their new replacements primaris should not exist they should have just been a refresh on the first born models. Retro armies should always be supported as proxies, when it takes months to years to get an army on the table an 8 year support cycle is just not enough time
I agree with most of what podger says in most videos, the warhammer space needs more calming voices I think. But I really don't like the suggestion that we need to be grateful to gw for updating models. As hobbyists we don't owe them anything, like podger said, gw is a company that exists to make money, and they do that by providing a service that consumers deem as valuable and purchase. It is literally a transactional relationship, customers money and attention needs to be earned.
Side note, the problem people have with the sanguinary guard is that the most recognisable part of their visual identity has been taken away. Their wings were the most recognisable part of the silhouette, its in every piece of art they are in, it's even on the cover of the new launch box. The difference between a funny pose on dante, or less bling on the deathwing knights, is that their visual identity was still preserved, the sanguinary guards was not, theyre just not special any more. It would be like taking away dantes jump pack and having him walk, or taking the deathwing knights weapons and shields and giving them all lightning claws, they are fundamentally changed from the aesthetic people like and care about. That is a failing on gws part, not the customers preferences.
40K is losing its soul
Without mentioning Space Marines how is 40k losing it soul?
@@Jackson-gf1cv even some Space Marine models still have soul.
@@HappyNoob17YTnah you wish.
@@Jackson-gf1cv"without mentioning 65% of all models and books released by GW what's losing its soul?"
is it? all new chaos stuff is solid ,xenos also get good stuff , same for the most of the empire only more bland stuff is not veteran sm but firstborn not veteran units are also bland nothing change really
Ah yes. My WS army made legend. For that l got , well nothing . No new bikes, no bike characters , sniper scouts, land speeders etc all gone. But hey l can play really bad white painted ultramarines, in a way that looks nothing and feels nothing like White Scars should. Worse part l did follow the meme "pick what you like, don't look at the meta etc", so l collected&bought stuff for 6 years. Rebased half the army to make it legal. What is worse l never had fun playing the army, because GW did a lot to make bikes unfun. What l should have done was pick an ever green faction that is good every edition , like eldar. If l were to wait another 3 to 6 years, then what did l do with my life? 12 years of waiting that MAYBE in 12th ed bikes will be re released ? And what if they suck , wait another 3-6 years. Mean time, to play, l have to buy codex, and play with sesonal armies and play not with the stuff l like and what l bought in to. Ah and as a bonus l live in a country where 450-500$ is to me losing 700$ is a bit different.
My 2009 iPhone is no longer supported.
If anything, old Warhammer models hold resale value fairly well compared to e.g. old tech.
It's a shame if that's the only army you want to use, one day white scars will get a big update. For better or worse, GW are not going to support everything from the past and update every army and faction within an edition or two - and I am saying I understand why they don't
17:53
Legends is kinda a mixed bag as alot of us have bought the new plastic kits for Horus Heresy and then within 6 to 7 months you can't use them in 40k and that just rubs people the wrong way when new kits get replaced straight away. But 20 years for a model is fine.
Taking things away just to keep them as things to bring back later is an awful thing to do. No one should be happy a company took something from you and then gave it back.
There is more to it than that though. I consistently try to make the point that not supporting in comp play this edition =/= taking away on multiple levels, and it is really a temporary and necessary thing given the time we are at in 40k's evolution.
@@podger_minisyou show that old army as something they didn’t support for 20 years but in 2017 that was a completely legal group of units to field so you could play them competitively
All Warhammer units ever made should be competitively viable for ever then...
Good luck with that
@@podger_ministhose were legal for like 30 years. They had been increasing marine size the entire time. They did that like 5 times functionally not much changed but they did ad new stuff with primaris. So they already showed they can make marines bigger and not change rules and can add variations on marines like centurions. Most primaris marines are marine with bolt gun or rocket launcher or plasma gun. They changed the bolt gun like 4 times without changing its rules but for some reason this time changing things was different.
@@podger_minisCompetitive viability wasn't mentioned until you brought it up here. Being legal to use in all games including comp just means they're capable of being used, hell there's plenty of supported models that plenty wouldn't consider competitively viable to many.
Just let people play with the expensive models they bought isn't a big ask, I think a company worth millions is capable of updating a handful of numbers on a unit sheet without breaking the bank.
I’m not a fan on how GW handled the data sheets across all factions going to legends.
As a Necron player 10th edition has been nothing but an anxious roller coaster ride of not only losing probably some of the most amount of data sheets compared to a lot of other factions but GW also will probably keep doing so has been tweaking the rules for Necrons, with the majority of them being negative changes.
So without explaining or giving us any warning, they just silently removed Anrakyr the traveler, Nemessor Zandrek, Vargard, Obyron, and the Necron Lord.
And then from the launch of 10th edition, Games Workshop kept making some very significant and impactful changes to the worlds post Codex.
Reanimation protocols took a hit, especially relating to Warriors who have a special rule called “Thier number is legion” which used to replace the D3 rolled whenever you triggered reanimation protocols with a D6.
Then for some strange reason, GW changed Warriors so that their rule for triggering reanimation protocols no longer replaced the standard D3 with a D6.
They now use a D3 just like every other normal Necron unit despite lowering their characteristics, across-the-board in 10th edition. They lost their 3+ armor save and they lost their 3+ ballistic skill and they’re basically 4’s across the board. In fact, games workshop actually post Codex changed one of the warrior weapons, which is the new 12” Gauss Reaper and reduced its strength from five down to four, further turning off players from using that unit. Even when they dropped the points so they were 10 points a model for a unit of 20., that’s 200 points of nerfed garbage and then because they decided the technomancer should be able to lead a third unit after banning all Crypteks from attaching to Lychguard… Because it turns out attaching a character that gives out a 5+ feel no pain on top of the Lychguard’s current 4++, and overlords were also allowed to join the unit which activated the Lich guard special ability called guardian protocols, which made the unit minus one to wound as long as the overlord was still attached to the unit. It was a mess.
Now the technomancer is back and able to lead Wraiths which might actually be worse…
So what did they do? They did something using a new term which perfectly describes when games workshop doesn’t quite balance the mistakes they made by allowing certain combinations to exist. I guess we like to call that over correcting.
For example, when they allowed the technomancer to join Wraiths, it was a significant boost to one attachment and that was the Canoptek Court.
So what ends up happening is that GW decides to increase the points costs of Wraiths which punishes all the other detachments.
Honestly, I was under the impression they were going to increase the cost of the technomancer… but apparently I spoke to some end of the next balance data slate showed us eight points increase on several units, especially every cryptek, most saw a increase of 10 to 15 points and the 65 point technomancer became 85 points, which further put the dream of the unit of 20 Warriors being led by a technomancer to bed.
The reanimator , the technomancer, the several limitations placed on resurrection orbs, The Nerf to the warrior bonus to reanimation, Ghost Arks triggering reanimation on a unit of warriors within 3 inches got Nerf to once per turn.
It’s a mess .. and lastly I’ll say this a couple of weeks before games workshop sent all of the data sheets, except for one to legends right after I purchased a Tesseract Ark was really upsetting…
Somebody mentioned that Necrons are one of the few if not only faction that had loss of units after their ninth edition refresh going into 10 edition.
When you think about it 4 characters, and 4+ units from Forge world, which includes the Tombstalkers which were big fan favorites because of the fact that they were just giant centipedes, and it was the closest thing to a monster we could use, I personally grabbed a Tesseract ark because it was similar in design to an annihilation barge, except it was one of the few vehicles in the action that had a flamethrower, and not only that it rolled a D6 +3 to determine how many attacks it generated that turn.
Gone all gone no explanation and I was sold something that I can never use in competitive play two weeks before they decided to put it into legends.
In the meantime, we still have two epic C’Tan which are made of fine cast as well as Trazyn.
To your point about the new Sanguiniry guard going to be looked back on as a positive is pretty much cope, they replaced an ostentatious kit for a very bland and forgettable kit. If it were the standard jump infantry it would be fine but it's so boring for the armour thats supposed to be very ornate. It doesn't live up to the lore and people are annoyed about that. And the faces are supposed to be mirrors of Sanguinius's visage and they are very chunky African styled faces which is also kinda far away from Sanguinius's appearance.
I thought the heresy conversions they did for Sanguinary guard were much better. Only problem is no mk 7 helmets, but they should be pretty easy to get hold of
@@paulyg405
I guess it's down to taste, I'm not a BA player my friends both play them and they didn't like them but they are probably a bit bitter and old if I'm being perfectly honest 😅
Say you followed through & played an old version of 40k, how would you do that regularly?
See if anyone around still plays or download table top simulator
My main issue with the cycling out of the firstborn is I feel there is a loss of style. I was never that fond of primaris as a base though they have grown on me a little, and some releases like the templars and dark angels have been phenomenal in terms of retaining the style of it all. I do feel however that some primaris releases, like the new sanguinary guard as the current example, are very bland and lose quite a lot. Imo they should probably make new larger upgrade kits for each founding chapter at least, maybe even less chapter specific upgrades and more just general aesthetics. Also really want a kit that is a bunch of firstborn helmets you can get separately from a kit and use for primaris, but thats a personal itch so to speak.
This seems to be a fairly recent thing mind as I noticed if you look at the models from Indomitus they're really quite detailed and have a ton of personality - like that Bladeguard captain with a whole skeleton stuck to his shield, or the Judiciar. And yeah the Dark Angels were cool, so I wonder if the Blood Angels were just a swing and a miss. Although Lemartes and Astorath I think are awesome.
I appreciate the video and your opinions on the new models and removing of the old. While i agree, updating the old models are a great thing, i loved dante's new model, i love Lemartes and Astorath's new models. However, the new sanguinary guard are a straight downgrade. Your opinion on how they look doesn't matter, you are paying more money for less detailed and a lesser number of models. Even if they're bigger, it is a straight downgrade, even if you dislike the old models. Also, i agree, they should update the old models, However not being able to play beloved units such as the Librarian dreadnought in competitive for YEARS while they update it isn't cool or right at all. We have nothing to replace that models role with now. Which is unfair, not not right at all. We haven't gotten any new replacement for it, this refresh is a straight downgrade. Other than Lemartes and Astorath, we have only lost things, details, models, ect.
Best 40k channel I know of. Sorry if my comment on the last video seemed cunty, I know the painting stuff takes more effort and I’m sure others were asking for it, I do think your grounded view on the hobby is rare in this era of hobby content though and personally I think it’s where your videos shine the most, easy to make or not. You cover the pros and cons of the hobby from the perspective of someone who wants the hobby to succeed and grow instead of trying to farm views whatever the cost. Thanks for all the vids and I look forward to seeing more soon mate 👍🏼
That's what i love from one page rules, it supports any model
I’m not a fan of space marines but honestly how hard could it had been to make a dual firstborn/primaris kit with an easy head or shoulder plate swap??
That is what they are doing, kind of. If you look at some of the recent kits they describe them in a fairly ambiguous way. If the word "Primaris" didn't exist I guarantee people wouldn't be as mad.
We lost 2 models out of a squad of 5. Probably pay more then for the previous kit
It's a reductive way to look at things though. Generally I'd rather buy those 3 new ones than the old 5 - may not be true for the sanguinary guard this time round tho!
@@podger_minis let me repeat myself, we lost an overpriced 5 squad kit and reduced it to a 3 man for the same price if not more. I just buy recast or secondhand these days, never a cent for you Englishmen
@@aguilarraliuga1777if you're trying to save money you're in the wrong hobby
@@AuramiteEX or maybe people need to drop the idea that they little plastic army men are some luxury product. hell most other parts on the mini wargaming, and model kit hobby give you far more and better plastic then GW.
@@flameknightdragon fake news.
I doubt that Gabriel Seth is coming back. Either that or Games Workshop has no concept of their reputation or doesn't care (or even need to care(?)) about it. Why would they take the reputational hit of getting rid of Seth if they had a re-release in mind? Just support him for another few balance passes. I really don't think its that hard if they wanted to try, especially with their cash resources. Maybe the "finecast machine" has finally broken beyond repair, and they just simply can't make him anymore, and don't know when they'll get to him, but they're not saying anything like that. Most of the new sculpts are pretty great, but I think a lot of the irritation comes from the weird splitting of the range and what people see as corporate moves to cajoul people into buying new stuff by changing weapon loadouts and making it difficult to even proxy primaris marines with re-based first born. The Sanguinary Guard and Sanguinor were dissapointing releases because they were obviously lazy. Not lazy individual sculpturers, but very tight rules on time for creating certain models so the cost of design is as low as they can get away with. It takes far less sculpting time to recreate an old pose, and I believe the Sanguinary Guard have poses taken from the new jump pack intercessors, and they clearly just didn't want to invest the time in doing wings for them. Combine that with simplifying the new rules, eliminating all the datasheets you can get away with, and you can save money on cheaper balance passes. It just looks like they want to make maximum money for minimum effort. That's why they like upgrade sprues so much. Shrinkflation or price gouging, while making old products basically redundant, then use the IP to tug peoples passion for the universe and get them buying the new models. Some of the AoS kits they retired were only 6 years old, which is pretty young when you look at Warp Spiders. They are also often rubbish at communication, the AoS retirements were comunicated badly, and people initially thought they were losing a lot more than they were. They are very good at hype and fomo and then often garbage at the serious talk when actual customer relations is required. Sorry rant over!
I think what we're possibly seeing here is their need to phase out resin kits meeting their inability to meet capacity while constantly releasing new plastic ones all the time. They just announced BA was the last codex this year and they've been in the process of getting another factory built for some time now so I think a lot of this has less to do with their ability to balance the game and more to do with their ability to produce plastic.
Gabriel Seth hadn't been available for ages though and went made-to-order over a year ago, so I doubt he is as popular as people are making out.
His model was dropped in 6th, it was selling terribly, and not existing is a preferable alternative to being made of finecast
I have often wondered whether GW will eventually get rid of the single weapons teams (hellblasters, infernus, desolation), and repackage them with the gimmick of having different weapons in the same squad. Much like what the first born tactical squad is like.
I am really intrigued what the solution for chaos marines will be when they eventually retire the first born tanks.
Although,considering the Baal predator survived and warp spiders still haven't been updated, the first born tank might stick around a while longer.
Sisters also use a lot of Rhino-based vehicles so I don't think that the base is going anywhere soon. But as soon as GW can fully replace it with some crappy tacticool grav version (pretty much already done with the gladiators) they will do it.
all they would have to do is cut and paste the new heresy firstborn tanks and add spiky bits. So I could totally see them being replaced relatively easily.
I think you've made a quality video, which I personally disagree with. But to not repeat points made in previous comments, I never understood why the need to "take the business point of view".
You mention Games Workshop needing to sell even more new models, which I think is a perspective "forced upon" (or highly encouraged upon) by businesses upon consumers. They're already one of the most profitable businesses, especially in this hobby it's actually shocking how much they profit. What I think we need to ask ourselves is what's it like from the customer perspective.
And, what I feel like the issue is from that perspective, is that the new models suck balls. It's just boring. I don't want to buy assault intercessors and paint them black - I want brand new, primaris, shiny models with tons of options. I want to buy unique models - I already could've painted my intercessors black, I don't need a 20 euro shoulder pad collection to make them death company.
To expand upon that, I don't care about the new desolation squad, infernus nor hellblasters - I don't see the point in having 3 separate boxes for buying basic marines with special weapons (Firstborn did it so much better with devastators that had ALL the special weapons in a box). Or even, having 3 separate dreadnought boxes that come down to a difference in weapon loadout. I really don't care how profitable or not profitable it is for them, their specific reasons of production for doing it - it's just annoying when I'm a customer. I want to have extra bits to put on bases or magnetize my models. From a customer perspective, the primaris range has been bad due to too much segregation where none is needed, and way too little options and segregation when it's needed.
I think you'll find most profitable businesses desire to be more profitable - thats normal behaviour. They don't just become profitable then give up!
@@podger_minis I agree, but that's also not the point I was making. My point was that as I customer I purely view how good the minis look to me and much they appeal to me as the customer. I don't really care if they have massive profits if the customers have a really great experience.
My point was specifically tied to my personal gripe that I see alot on the internet is people speaking of the business side of GW and the reasons behind their decisions when we don't know (we speculate) their buisness models, plans or goals. The only thing that matter is the customer perspective. You can see simply how well received the CSM truescale was, as opposed to the primaris refresh - it's not about which is more profitable that causes any conversation, it's about the customer experience. As such, what is the point of even trying to speculate on what's good for their business since we don't run their business.
@@ivanposao2792 primaris marines probably sell somewhere in the range of 10-100x better than chaos marines so anecdotes of who likes what better isn't the same as what drives business. Primaris was an experiment, in terms of sales it has been a massive success. People clearly love and buy them, myself included
@@podger_minis I agree with you on that - but that's not my point
My point was, why are you trying to justify what is GW thinking about, their sales, what they're trying to achieve? You, nor I, have access to their plans, ambitions and schedules/roadmaps.
From a consumer perspective I'd like to bring out 2 points you've mentioned as an example of what I'm referring to:
- you mention the stormcast refresh - they put up alot of models to be discontinuined, which basically just got a prettier version of the same unit a few months later.
You've mentioned that as a possible example, but I'd describe it as a fairly negative consumer example - again, I do not care what their plans and ambitions and production schedules are (as I don't have access to that information), but what i do know is that they've left a bad stain on AOS and Stormcast as a faction because they close not to disclose which models are just being left out of the game completely - and which are being just refreshed
- you mention the Blood Angels refresh - and speak often how they will get new models - how do you know this?
Again, lets put it in the context of what we do know now (not speculate on what could happen later) - the army lost 3 unique dreadnoughts, 1 unique kit (death company) was transformed into an upgrade sprue/paint job and lost some HQs. Not even speaking of firstborn vs primaris expansion, the army lost alot of options and it's uniqueness. This is enough to leave the army aside and not continue the hobby.
To be clear, I am not making the point here to argue with you or anything similar - but I feel like sometimes GW consumers are huffing a bit of copium.
I fail to see how GW is a tough spot where they need to recreate firstborn into primaris (which is presented as a difficult task) - but obviously it's extremely appealing to the consumers. I fail to see why it's presented as a bad thing that people are frustrated as a customer because their models are removed from sales/the game - because "it will be back in an edition or two", but I feel as a customer, I don't really care too much if they're redo it in a year, because my friends and I have time and passion to play *now*, who knows if I'll care about 40k enough in two-three editions when they get around doing decent death company because they planned their models in such a way.
The thing with Gabriel Seth is his model hasn't been available for over a year, and the last time it was available it was on made to order. So in that case I don't see why it was even remotely a surprise they dropped him.
Funny you should show a 2nd ed army though, I have a ton of metal firstborn stuff and was tempted to write up a list and paint it retro style.
Proxying old legends models as new ones needs to be encouraged. Theres is no reason firstborn cannot be used as a primaris equavlent.
i think they could solve a lot of the complaints by just re releasing an upscaled mk7 tactical squad for horus heresy or something tbh
I was literally looking at that image a few hours before you uploaded and thinking about making a retro army
To hell with "realistic models".
I like artistic models, new models don't have any charm
I started playing WHFB back in the very early 90's & continued playing right up until they discontinued metal minis/the destruction of the old world/cancellation of WHFB in favour of AoS. I also hated finecast models & a metal mini feels value for money, plastic doesn't. So I Just stopped dead as i had no interest in being forced into a new game requiring an entire restart as i had quite asubstatial investment in fanasy. I had played almost every army to an extent. I even stopped playing competitively. I won Best General 2 years running (2003/4)at the Bloodstorm/Irish National Championships tournament & regularly competed in The Northern Wasters internal tournaments which happened monthly at that time. I returned to 40k during the pandemic & started collecting 9ed in a serious way. So since with 10ed GW seem to be butchering my armies again i'll be staying playing 9ed since i no longer have any interest in playing competitively or with anyone other than friends.They can discontinue models all they want in the current meta it'll make no difference to me or my friends who are sticking with 9ed or playing HH as it more resembles the game we used to play. Any modles i buy now will be used to fill out 9ed armies. Also the new Sang Guard look like shit & are just plain boring. They should have given them the same jump pack as the new Astorath so they still had winged jump packs that looked better than the old ones. As it is as soon as i saw the new models i immediately went out & bought a unit of the old models. So less than 5 years after coming back to the hobby i'm already ready for ditching it again for anything other than just messing around with my mates. They've also botched the new "Old World" release by shelving many popular armies. I primarily played Chaos, Dark Elves, Skaven, Liardmen & Vampire Counts & they had shelved all of them except Chaos. I'll do a few of the factions like Tomb Kings, Orcs & Goblins & Chaos because i'll be able to amalgamate them with my old armies but i suspect they'll botch this game more. GW currently seem determined to drive their old gamers out of the hobby.
Games workshop : "Dont use 3rd party bits if you wanna compete in Tournaments"
also Games workshop : "So the new Sanguinary Guard dont have wings and look Super Generic. Please dont use 3rd party bits to make them look like they're supposed to look if you want to use them in Tournaments"
All I want is truescale MK VII armour, please GW
There are plenty out there if you 3d print.
You can pretty much get there with a head/backpack swap.
To me I think the upgrade sprue was one of the bits that just really encapsulated my feelings on the update: if they had made one like the gorgeous black templar one with all the flavourful pieces, or the dark angel one which was pretty good, I think you might have been able to maintain that blood angels feel throughout your force. But with the current items on the sprue, the tiny alterations these pieces make end up with the marines simply looking like ultramarines in red (and honestly I feel ultramarines have lost what little identity they had too). The force doesn't feel special anymore without using 3rd party bits and some greenstuff. I'm lucky to still have some of the older kits to sprinkle bits in from. Wish I'd picked up a few more of the old kits before they went, as I've been looking to build a Badab force which is looking a little unlikely now.
Sorry for the blogpost, love your videos.
I feel like this would actually make the upgrade sprues worth something. They feel so barebones. No real amount of embossed shoulder pads to make full squads of marines (2 gravis shoulders per sprue? Not even enough to outfit the smallest gravis squad of 3. You need to use the pads off of both sprues and are still left with 1, that's nuts.) And other thematic bits and even custom weapon options. You could add so much in the terms of themed additional heads, arm swaps, other doodads. But they just... Dont. Then you end up getting the box sets and they overinflate the cost of them with sub-par upgrade sprues that most people won't even use or just re-sell.
don't forget the Heresy kits for your Badab force, Mk 4 will be along over the next couple of years if you don't like the current kit, and I would bet my house that we haven't seen the last of Mk 7
Introducing Primaris was a huge mistake. With size creep, the SM range was getting larger without erasing "10,000 years" of SM lore. The Primaris story does not make sense and was completely not needed. The size increase did not even "fix" scale problems with the game. Primaris are simply a watered down version of a much better idea. Thank the warhammer godz for 30K. The new "bell bottom boys" are all bubbly and simple looking. They really do look like "Guiliman's Ogrin". Floating tanks? Mario Karts? Just horrible. The new monopose San Guard suck, they are a great example of all things "Primaris".
the moldelling quality isn't everything. aethstetic quality is much more important and in my opinion, a lot of the primaris range (excluding things like the new BT and DA releases) just shows a degradation of the aethstetic. gw seem to be scared to get weird and and adventurous with 40k as they've grown, and it's a real shame
"It has to be, right?"
That line sums it all up. You don't even sound sure about what you're saying. Like you're trying to justify this to yourself, but you still can't fully manage to. Because I think no, they're not going to replace everything that was lost, and just hoping they will in 5 years isn't enough for people. They could have just kept the old versions around until the updated version was released, if that was the case. You're hoping and hoping and saying we should be happy in the meantime but that isn't worth anything. I like legends, but it's absolutely no replacement for actual support.
Also I disagree, the terminator bits on an upgrade sprue is still a downgrade. You lose the unique legs, different chest pieces, different arms or helmets, so now instead of a whole squad where every member has clear iconography, it's at best 2/5. You say there's no reason they couldn't do more of these upgrades, which is true, but they haven't done that, and hoping they will at some point in the future isn't reassuring in the slightest.
I appreciate you trying to find some positivity in this, because we need it, but at the same time you can't hide that's it's still mostly losses and downgrades, and we have zero indication that it'll improve. I can be hopeful, but it doesn't actually change the situation
Even a few months ago they discontinued the Exalted Champion from the chaos codex which i liked as a cheaper option of hq after the chaos lord's ability was nerfed.
For me, a lot of the problem boils down to this.
1: legends units can't be used in official tournaments which is a problem because
2: everyone at your FLGS will be playing matched play because some of them like to play in tournaments which is a problem because
3: legends units dont receive balance updates so in regular matched okay games you will often wind up playing with what is funtionally a value/points deficit if you use many legends units.
Being a player who uses legends units means you have to spend extra time searching an already niche space trying to find people willing to play casual/narrative warhammer, which seems like an oddly hard thing to do compared to when I started playing in 3rd.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ravenwing is having their rules in the 10th edition codex still. However the Furioso kit has been removed completely, which means we are less likely to see any sort of replacement for it.
Which sucks, because BA got 0 exiting kits this edition, and people just moved to 3D printing their own stuff.
Ravenwing got gutted pretty bad by the loss of standard bikes, Landspeeders (and our special character speeder)
On the flip side the new DA models are all fantastic
Upgrading models is good.
Making new models is good.
Not selling old models is understandable. That would be alot of production line space.
Not balancing old models for competitive is fine too.
Refusing to balance old models that cost hundreds in a rulebook that costs a hundred dollars for casual play while pretending you can still use them with the awful legends rules and saying don't even think about using them in comp is what I have a problem with.
I think it's very reasonable to expect to be accounted for when paying so much for rules.
If the models weren't treated as premium luxury lifetime goods, Or the rules were free, OR GW openly transitioned to a models first company without trying to eat their cake and have it too by trying to keep everyone using their rules and using the rules to drive model sales, I would be alot more ok with it.
I’ve been playing warhammer 40 k from 1995 till now I think the fist born rock I still run them just not competitive games reg games sure run your fist born👍🏾
First they took warlord traits and relics.
Then they took detachments(heavy support, fast attack etc)
Then they took psychic.
And finally they cull our ranges.
Yeah tenth is getting pretty boring as a game to simplified for no gain.
Makes no sense to remove them then bring them back.
It actually does if they don't sell
I didn’t mind the 9th edition primaris starter minis but I don’t like a lot of the tacticool minis. They just rub me the wrong way. I also don’t like the marines going to grav tanks. It’s stupid. They should’ve just done bigger minis
I do like the scouts and new terminators though
I also don’t mind the sternguard. Just not a fan of the blood angel release or a lot of the primaris range especially the vehicles and the weird ankles
To be honest I’m mostly getting 30k stuff and recaster for oop.
Maybe GW could refresh Custodes, Grey Knights or even Eldar?
Grey Knights will be refreshed next edition probably. The Codex is due early mid next year i believe so they may get something then. Eldar getting an Aspect Warrior/Pheonix Lords refresh next year. Custodes have already been released this edition so not before next edition but as i've recently (this edition) bought a full armies worth of Custodes that are still in their boxes i'd quite like to build & play with them before they get updated/shelved.
@@snakeplissken6649 Like half the Custodes line is Forge World, no? Would be nice to see it updated.
Just saying, it's not necessarily the case GW has to bring back firstborns to have stuff to do, there's an enormous amount of models that are 20+ year old sculpts that could be refreshed. Even though Orks just got new models there's still a bunch of old stuff they have and their new models are monopose.
@@9e7exkbzvwpf7c Ok i'll agree with you that the Forge World stuff would be good as normal models but i don't want them doing to Custodes what they recently did with Stormcast Eternals & Space Marines & discontinue half the model range just to sell us new stuff. How about they just give us the option of new stuff while leaving the current stuff alone?
As a long time Eldar player with an army built mainly using the old Craftworlds Codex i can't wait to get an updated range. To sit alongside my old Craftworld. So i'll have 2 Eldar armies then. Something new that i'll maybe paint in their traditional colours with my old self designed Craftworld using it's own colour scheme.
Thanks for your thoughtful take, and I do agree we need more positivity in the hobby but also reclaim a bit of a DIY perspective - GW are gonna do what they do, but that doesn't mean we have to as well. I think it's time for casual gamers to reclaim a bit of ownership over the systems the way we used to in the Oldhammer days. House rules, adding in rules for cancelled models, coming up with your own ways to play and finding others who are keen. Making up missions, kitbashing models, etc.
Where I think there's inevitably some disappointment is for those of us who would have preferred to see a rescaling and refresh of the firstborn models. They are doing this in Heresy and by and large the models are fantastic, but of course they aren't quite the same and not everyone wants to play Heresy or stop playing their favourite marines competitively in 40k. Maybe one day there will be a legacy game for fans of the OG 40k style that can scratch some of these itches.
Don't defend them. GW removing a ton of their models knowing it will tick people off is inexcusable. The excuse of them not having new things to release also doesn't apply IMO. They can go and create new things and release those instead (15+ resin, or cool new things to supplement armies, or heck, new factions). The game of customizing and hobby-ing is becoming commercialized tabletop e-sports which is a shame. The refreshes look aweful and lazy as well. Looking at you new Coteaz and anything primarus.
This sort of raises a good point but I think the rate they want to release new stuff and the amount of stuff they want to keep supporting at once (rules and products) is incompatible. From this perspective they have to remove stuff
Then don't buy the new stuff. Absolutely nobody is forcing you to buy anything new.
I have half of those models from second edition. They look bad since I didn’t know how to thin my paints or use a wash or dry brush. I could out down a goblin green base though. Very happy to have new stuff to paint. Very happy to have a local community to play games with. Very balanced games and rules make it so you can win with any faction.
“They aren’t bad models”
The hell they are lol they are weirdly tilted and all on their funny tactical rocks. Bland and lazy, and worse they just really miss the mark on what the sanguinary guard were and what made them stand out.
I’m just glad I don’t collect or play blood angels seeing that release and hope they don’t do crap for other refreshes. They showed what a good refresh could be for things like chaos warriors and black Templar/dark angels so this is pretty unacceptable.
The smaller scale of the models has nothing to do with their quality- the pewter metal is beautiful with so much more heart and interest put in. Comparing the old sanguinor and his purity seals alone to the new one shows how boring the digital sculpting looks.
Quite frankly seeing this garbage release makes me want to make a 3rd- 5th Ed force- I’ll take good looking models consistency over consistency of just scales up
Then get those models instead. Nobody is making you buy the new stuff. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Easy.
Fitting for Blood Angels afflicted with the Black Rage?
They're about to do it with Kill Team as well. I'm going back to old editions
Taking the rules and support side out of it, I think one of the biggest issues older players such as myself have is that although the increase of scale Primaris brought was welcome, the blandness that came with the new range is not. Since collecting Blood Angels since 2010, to open my first box of intercessors and to find every single breastplate is exactly the same, wound me up to no end. And I have been very reluctant to purchase the newer range due to this. Even very detailed models like the Bladeguard Veterans have parts on each that are almost identical, where as an old set of plastic veterans such as the Sternguard had so many parts and options you had spares you could use to customise other parts of your army and make it yours.
Others in the comments have mentioned that had GW simply upped the scale of Firstborn marines in 2017 and kept the quality of the options high, initial grumblings would have quickly faded away. However, GW went out of their way to change the aesthetic of Space Marines to emphasise the difference between new and the old, almost breaking the universes' logic to do so. We all know why, to make money of course. But decreasing the overall quality of the kits along with it will hurt GW in the long run. Almost as soon as the new Blood angel sets were announced, I saw a former Golden Demon winning youtuber show off 3rd party conversion sets for Blood Angels and they were far and beyond what the new releases offer. The market seems to be speaking for itself there. I don't expect anything to change, but I'll still complain like the old man of the hobby regardless.
Another few reasons why they wanted to to this.
1. Naming. Alot of names cannot be trademarketed and copywrite was impossible. Primaris Impulsor. Now that compared to a Predator Tank.
2. Model scale. Bigger models are easier to paint. Easier painting makes it more accessable.
3. Legacy models takes time to upscale and then produce in quantity, they can't just give us 10,000,000 new models on sprue. It takes time to produce.
4. The lawsuits forcing Games Workshop to stop kitbashing because the lawsuits...
5. Money of course. They produce models first, ways to paint the models etc etc.
I think people need to change their perspective on Legends units. If you aren't playing in tournaments, I don't think it should really matter. Some events even allow Legends I think?
The biggest annoyance with it, to me at least, is that now these models will get very difficult to get your hands on. Like you said, we did get a lot of good sculpts (the characters).
Blood Angels are moving from an army with a ton of details to not so much, and I think that's a big reason why people are upset about losing the old sculpts. The new Sanguinary Guard and Death Company are great examples.
No one is stopping anyone from playing older editions of 40k. Hell, people could host tournaments in older editions if people like them so much.
Cutting down on range bloat is really good for the game, and not just from a competitive point of view. It allows for more fresh ideas to be tried with new kits and new rules.
Besides, they supported these kits for how many decades? Feels like oldmarine players got their money's worth.
I have a vision that the future 40k will b mini push fit joytoys that u paint yrself kinda like magna force
I am trying to collect a 2nd edition marine army and it’s 3 times the cost of a new Primaris one 😂
Try some of the recaster sites
God i hate competition play and that grind for a 'perfect' or balanced game system. Go and play chess you weirdos. It should just be fun, with fun models! Love your grounded, realistic and humanistic view on 40k. People forget that GW is made up of real people and not super villains. Ive been playing older versions of 40k in recent months and it seems like people forget that you can play whatever rules you want!
Awesome vid brother 💯💯💯
Write better rules themselves, print firstborn marines, play with friends - thats what players should do
Nice vid. Subscribed
I'm saying this as someone who's known of warhammer for years but never collected an army until recently; do away with the first born models. Part of why I only was into the lore was because I thought the first born space marines were goofy and dumb looking. It wasn't until the primaris models hit the market that I was sold on making an army. In lore, they could have just had Cawl discover an STC to make better armor and that's why the new armor looks the way it does but instead GW went the "try and please everyone" route. It fucked with the lore, it made everyone mad, they should have just said "they found some of the golden age armor" and left it at that. The proportions on all of the primaris models are perfect and what I always pictured a space marine SHOULD look like and not the frumpy first born look.
So we are currently stuck with the lore and everyone pissed their firstborn models are being phased out. Maybe GW can sell a base upgrade to bring the firstborn models to the same height (basically give em a stool) as the primaris models. Lorewise, what's done is done. The writers have borked it with Cawl committing tech heresy (not to mention the introduction of tyranids means there's a force that must be dealt with by all factions or else literally everyone dies as opposed to the different factions fighting each other)
People need to stop living in the nostalgia of whatever edition they started. GW needs to evolve and they've done so at a fairly slow rate.
They're not coming to your house to take away your precious firstborn.
You and your friends don't like 10th? Cool, go play 8th.
I don't think competitive players will complain because, at the end of the day, they're all about winning tournaments. They'll adapt to the changes and meta.
Upgrade sprues are the future. Once all Primaris models are released I think we'll find upgrade sprues being more prominent.
Id say thered a good chamce Gabriel seth. Jump chaos lord went to legends and then came back.
We disagree a LOT lol. But there's a lot in here I agree with. You sort of lionizing the new sculpts and framing the old sculpts as "just ok" or "kind of crap" is way off the mark ofc. The old models are usually amazing and especially considering the context of when they are made. In retrospect you can reduce their popularity by comparing them to what's better in modern models for sure. But you need to not be disingenuous about how good they are overall.
Plenty of your points are really non-controversial but not all. There's some ways that you frame them that aren't addressing the best critiques of the issues between what was good before and what can be done well in the future. So it really needs better discussion. Still don't know what happened to our conversation from last year but maybe one day there will be a proper one again.
Audio quality is so bad I don't think I can put it on the channel unfortunately. However I've started a monthly podcast so we can go again if youd like and I now have a suitable format for this sort of debate (monthly podcast). DM on discord if you're keen. And sorry about that!
@@podger_minis Understandable. It would be great tbh. While I think we have some deep disagreements on specifics I really do feel there's a very constructive conversation around the various topics we've sparred on. I believe it could help a lot of other people focus their efforts better when praising or criticizing GW.
A pick me GW channel XD gtfo, let the 3D printers run and use whatever rules make you happy. Don’t listen to shills like this that tell you the models you love and have put work into don’t mean anything. New models and reimagining old ones are awesome but ripping out all the character and everything that makes them unique is a watering down of the setting.
Ah yes enjoying the new models is bad, fair enough
Nice straw-man. Might wanna read my comment again, I said making new models and reimagining old ones is awesome.. just don’t rip out what makes them unique.
I see a Podger video, I click “like”
Be cool if they re-release 2nd ed tactical squads
Grot tanks are a big shame to.
Podger, I really agree with your points. You have put into words some of my thoughts on modern warhammer. I love more positive videos on it too as the discussion on warhammer is so often so negative.
Im gonna go off into speculation territory; eventually IMO we will see upscaled firstborn models to coincide with the Scouring/10k year leadup to modern 40K...it just makes sense from a nostalgia bait & money-making standpoint with GW. A lot of the lore/storytelling is left in the open so that creative decisions can be made to fill in the things. Cynicism aside - it makes too much sense
why is it such a big problem to release fast and release more new/refreshes units at the same time
I agree with most of what you are saying but moving Deathwatch to legends is a kick in the teeth to players that just play that army.
real as fuck
To be real with you, its a bit of a cope to be so sure in the idea that one of the most consumer hostile companies in the business will do a good thing, even more so considering the fact that they could have easily kept selling and supporting the current models for the years to come.
The gap of models just isnt justified, there is not enough new stuff for everyone, and justifying this with "there is nothing to release otherwise" has to be some sort of logical fallacy because it makes NO sense for them to not just leave something be until the make a new release.
Your stormcast example is proof that they DIDNT have to remove the models before replacing them, not a justification for doing so
Also reminding me that "just because I put in effort and bought these models and may want to play with them doesnt mean the giant corporation has to respect me" actually kinda makes me want to boycott them...
Saying my models have a lifespan of what will be supported looses a lot of meaning considering some xenos models are like 15 years old or older at this point without a refresh and are still being sold, for ever more ridiculous prices
"its a bit of a change" has to be the biggest understatement I ever heard regarding the new SG and saying its "just design choice" and not a loss or "they arent bad just different" is again cope, and a huge cope of optimism tbh
I am a kitbasher with just about 5 years of experience, I can happily take the new models and add all the bits back from the old ones I can make them better just like you said. But to do so I have to resort to buying parts from recasters or 3D printing, I am forced to do something GW hates to fix their own fuckup for them so I can enjoy the hobby the way I like.
And again you say that "more people will buy this" as if thats an inherently good thing, why exactly? GW is making record profits anyway. And they keep raising prices anyway, we dont get anything back as consumers by them getting more successfull.
As a community we are not grateful for the amazing refreshes we get because they are sprinkled on top of some delicious mud pies that GW expects us to somtimes swallow after removing the actually good food. And no the aspects of change we obsess over arent small.
And exactly as you say, the things we can get that make the hobbying aspect awesome are the things GW forbids from competitive play, I cant take my kitbashed army with some recasts and the most amazing 3D prints and the most lovingly combined multi media art works I have done since art school to a GW store and play some games, because they will see that that they lost out like 200€ from me and that is grounds enough for them to force their employees to prevent me from playing there like that.
I CANT do whatever I want outside of my own house
This whole video is cope, and its okay, we all have to cope somehow, but dont cope by pretending everything is fine please, that has to be one of the least healthy ways, I mean come on, you literallly say "we're not far off" its "oh just a little more" just a little more hnadling this bad stuff then GW will do good again, its like listening to someone who is in a toxic relationship. Saying GW is the hand that feeds us is not helping me change that perspective.
All that said I would do a lot of things to get this kind of optimism, I am too jaded from just 5 years, Idk what people who have been into this for 20 or 30 years feel, or if they even still CAN feel something... and the way you said all this, in my mind it conjures an image of me pulling a friend by the collar so he doesnt run into a damn train, not some obescene yelling fit of rage in which I am appalled by some hitherto unknown fucked up belief he holds.
And I did absolutely feel like liking the video at the end, so there's that, I mean you got me to write out all these rebuttals to your opinions and I still sit through everything instead of calling you a shill and disliking.
Primaris/8th edition got
me into 40k the models looked amazing while the firstborn squat marines looked like shit. Sure they have their “Charm” but that charm is just another word for looking like shit. Horus Heresy and Space Marine Hereoes Firstborns though, now those look great give us more of them.
My models don't have a lifespan, if GW tries to invalidate them I'm going back to playing 6th ed Fantasy and GW can get stuffed, 40k players just need to stop dancing to GW's tune so easily, go back to an old edition they like, and stick with that
Oh also scalecreep is a bad thing, why do people keep thinking that bigger models are better
I still find the generic primaris designs absolutely rubbish.
you sound new to the hobby and with youth comes inexperience and naivety. But respect your older gamers whom devoted more time and energy to the game than you have. Stop buying Gw . They have forgotten the essence of the original warhammer!
You are part of the problem. There is so much wrong with this video and your takes that im honestly at a loss for where to start. When did you even start playing? How much are they paying you?
Glad they have almost replaced the old Squat Marine range. I think GW made a mistake trying to tiptoe around the subject.
Hopefully we can all move on now and enjoy the new kits and the future.
Primaris lore is stupid. They should’ve just made a new mark of armor and called it a day. It’s almost as retarded as the end times but I guess they’re just a bunch of spazzes
To everyone saying that you are being forced to buy Primaris; you are not being forced to buy anything. You can proxy, use legends rules, or just play an older edition. Those options are available. Don't sling around the phrase "mindless consumer" when you can't think to not buy stuff you don't like.
Stop talking sense! We wanna be mad! 😅😂
This. People just wanna be angry, lol
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