The only target you should aim for is the target that achieves balance between loudness, clarity and transient presence. That target varies between different genres, you don't necessarily have to shoot for a specific number (-14 lufs, for example), but DEFINITELY do not master a jazz tune with the mindset and approach of mastering an EDM track.
I wonder if normalization process happens before or after the music is encoded. If it happens after, then I guess we need to really care about intersample peaks. But if it happens before, then it wouldn't really make any difference. The amount of music that doesn't care about intersample peaks and still sounds great on Spotify is very significant.
Yes I like this idea about the "official" version and the "streaming" version. I work at the amateur level, I am far from you, but since I work with musicians managing their music themselves, I sometimes propose them an official "to the world" version and a "streaming version" as well. As you mention, although it is possible to make a song at -8 LUFS sound "as good" as at -14 LUFS, "as good" does not mean identical and me personally I prefer the more open sound, less compressed, but this is my taste, nobody has to agree with this. And very often, my "streaming version" master will sound louder on the streaming platforms than the "loud" version master because before the limiter, I have total control on the dynamic of each part of the song so I can control each part individually so that I make sure that the most important parts of the song sounds louder. As we know, we have to think the opposite way when we are mastering for streaming: if your song is a little above -14 LUFS, let say -12 LUFS, to make the choruses to play louder on streaming platforms, you simply put the verses less loud or some less important parts subtly more quiet and that will bring down the average LUFS level of the whole song so it means less gain reduction by the streaming platform, which means that the choruses will play even louder than before lowering the quiet parts. But after the limiter, it is much more difficult to control these aspects so very often I will do a master without limiter at all for TH-cam or streaming platforms (with care about the optimal loudness of the stream platforms as calculated by some well-known tools) and compensate by other compression methods to make it sound strong and glued but very dynamic (my weird way to work, I am weird and I fully assume it haha). Thanks for your awesome advices as always! Much appreciated that you take some of your precious time to assist us!
I’m glad I found your channel. I do have a question about my Music. I haven’t found a video on your channel where you discuss mastering or mixing cinematic/instrumental music. I’m Having a hard time finding the right levels. Thanks so much for all your work.
It's my understanding that even if you submit - 8LUFS to a service like Spotify, that when they turn it down, it's not compressed but rather brought down in the fashion of a volume fader without any dynamic loss. Therefore, shooting for -14 LUFS isn't necessary at all. I'm confused. 🙄
Aligns 100% with my findings. -14 on Soundcloud sounds weak as well. -8 or -9 seems to be the current standard for electronic music.
2 ปีที่แล้ว +2
Thanks for this comparison, but in my opinion this kind of track/mix itself is sounding already very compressed in each element, so I think if you do such comparison it’s better to use a track with more transient-emphasized (such as many ear candy stuff) elements in it.
As someone who's followed you for a long time, I've probably seen more of your takes on this topic than most people here. You've said this 3 times already but said different things on it. This time you're saying that it sounds better at -14lufs, and last time you said it sounds better at -8rms because of the forward push and crush it gives that we're used to hearing as a familiar sound, and then before that you said master to -9lufs and then reduce the output volume by 1db afterwards to help the streaming services. So the question is.. what the heck is right? Are the previous ones wrong? You also said that NO big label has ever requested -14 from you. So what now?
First point is about audio quality alone (sonic life and breath) the second is cultural norms (and genre norms) as ‘crushing’ or ‘pumping’ is a form of simulating a loud concert (110db) even though you’re only listening to it at 60db. The last point is an economical way or hedging. It might be difficult for people to have many versions, particularly when third parties are involved so this is the closest to “one size fits all”. They’re all the same topic but different problem solving angles within the topic.
ive written a comment above explaining my point. just master as loud as u can get your song to be. but dont make extreme compromises just for the sake of loudness :)
Hi Streaky. I've been mastering for a number of years and feel that I have been able to reach minus 10 to minus 8 for CD and still have the tracks sounding good with (at least) the impression of good dynamics. The artists and clients have all been happy with my work. However, recently I have worked on a couple of modern country albums and have been referencing some releases from some top American artists. Some of these tracks are extremely hot (-7 LUFS integrated), both on CD and also on Spotify with volume compensation off. I have been happy that I have got very much in the same ballpark for CD- as requested by the client. The issue is that even though some of the reference tracks are louder than my masters (both by listening and measurement) and can sound quite squashed, they are still noticeably louder than my stuff when played on Spotify with the volume compensation on. They seemingly haven't had the same 'loudness penalty' as my masters even though mine are equally or more dynamic. I feel like I'm missing a trick somewhere! I've tried everything from -14 streaming versions to -8, more or less compression etc.....Any suggestions as to why this might be?
Normally this is perceived loudest due to the mix ha big more space and less processed....perceived loudness is the key and the thing you need to learn 👍
@@Streaky_com Thanks very much for the reply! I do understand that, but perhaps this subject is too broad for a comments section conversation. Always enjoy your vids, never too old to learn something! Cheers!
There are three points to watch out for when trying to make a loud mix & master for streaming: 1. Well balanced EQ. There should not be any muddiness, or any unwanted frequencies on the individual tracks or the mix as a whole. That will only trigger the LUFS meter but not add any percieved loudness. Cut bass on tracks that don't need it, try to remove any extra harshness in the treble content, and try to minimize any kind of boxiness or mud in the mid frequencies. 2. Dynamic content is favoured. Short loud noises, like drums, won't trigger the algorithm as much as long sustained sounds, like keyboards or guitars. This means drums can be quite loud compared to other elements in the mix. But be careful with ride and crash cymbals since these are longer, more sustained sounds. 3. Treble triggers the alorithm more than low frequencies. So keep the treble in your mix under control.
Not a single track on Soundcloud is mastered to - 14 lufs. I did a test, uploaded 2 identical tracks, one with - 14 lufs, - 1 dB TP and the other one with +6 lufs and +6 dB TP. Guess which one sounded louder.
Ok, so I watched my first videos from your channel, and your backdrop was just like you sit before a green screen. Then the "3-D dog animation" of the backdrop started. Huh. Nice place you have there, dear Sir! :-)
What about true peak level? Most mastering engineers I know have the last limiter ceiling at around -0.3 and don't care about ISP. But nowadays it all comes distorting from Spotify or Tidal. Spotify for mobile can raise a master's true peak level from -0,3 to +2dB and then its going to distort like hell when listened through Instagram (and many artists promote their music via instagram)
I think for the featured track, it's easier to get away with -14LUFS because the mix is so dense and has a low crest factor. But I think on electronic music, it's harder to make -14 LUFS sound professional and finished. For me, EDM at -14 LUFS doesn't sound finished. Great video as always, love the dog.
That’s a classic case of ear trickery, listen to many EDM tracks being slammed with a limiter, inc distortion and low LUFS, once you get used to listening to a lot of these it becomes the norm..it doesn’t make them good IMHO..
I'm glad that you specified Electronic Dance Music. This is because basically, this type of music is a noise fest (It's de facto kind of an excuse for a beat.) It's very design is for minimal sections, where soft volumes are used (dynamic range.) Not all dance music is loud (think the subtlety of bossa nova, or a minuete), but a lot of it is loud. Electronic amplification ramped this up big time. When big bands (dance music) were playing, the horns could only get so loud. They weren't nearly as loud as modern dance music. Other forms of music, there are many of them, truly can have a dynamic range. This is where -14 LUF can truly show its value. It can show the virtues of having a dynamic range in music. It can show the "air" in between instruments and voices. EDM is noise fest. It doesn't appear to me that having "air" in the sound, is a feature of relentless beats, and respetative synthsizers lines. Yes, with EDM you don't have to worry about dynamic range because the inherent nature of that musc form means that there is little to begin with.
I guess here’s my issue... I only play, mix and master my own stuff and it’s metal music. I can master a piece to -8 RMS or -8 LUFS and then play it right behind a professional track and there’s a MASSIVE difference. I pushed a piece this morning where the short terms LUFS were like -5 and it STILL sounded insanely quiet compared to a professional track played back to back even though it wasn’t distorting an insane amount. There’s a breakdown somewhere that I’m missing and I don’t know if it’s in the mastering phase or the mixing phase.
I am absolutely NOT an authority on this but...is your Sound Check option turned on? If so, when you’re making it louder, the system is just turning it down more. Try backing off the level a bit and see if that brings the volume up when you listen. I’ve found this to be the case for myself. I always listen with Sound Check on AND off to make sure it sounds good regardless of how the listener has their situation set up.
@@leonb456 I’m not sure what the Sound Check option is. I play a track on Apple Music and then compare my exported wave file to that. What is this Sound Check and where do I find it? LoL
@@dannyleftridgemusic on your iPhone or whatever device you’re using...go to Settings>Music>Sound Check. You probably also want to make sure your EQ is off (it’s in the same place as the Sound Check). If you’re on a computer, the option is under Music>Preferences>Playback.
Thank you!!!! Its a big help as we are pulling our hair and ears out over this. Do we like pulling the volume knob up? Maybe there is something about that? So many possibilities!
Hi guys, The thing is that I measure loudness from youtube music through Youlean for some major songs, every single one is a lot above -14 lufs integrated, with true peak well above -1. Usually I measured around -9 lufs and +0.5 (and above to +1) true peak. How does this explained according to spotify/youtube loudness policies? I'm pretty sure about my measurements that I did with different methods (streaming, downloading,...) on major hits. Cheers C.
When someone listen to your -14db lufs song without volume equalization it's going to be a lot quieter than pro records. The loudness is in the mix. When you get better at balancing your mix you notice that it's easy to get etc -7db lufa loudness. This has been the biggest struggle for me personally for so long.
most DnB club music is a least -6 LUFS , ive found the average to be around - 5 - 4 LUFS on the heaver stuff tho it takes a lot of skill for it to be that loud and still sound good.
Yeah that’s called good mixing and mastering...but it doesn’t mean it will sound better when the level is pulled down if it’s for streaming only...(depends on the track etc) but you would want it super loud if just giving out to people or it would sound pretty weak against the competition 👍
@@Streaky_com yeah I don't really like the fact that people go above -6 cos certain tunes can't get that loud without sounding good , especially if they have vocals and sub bass at the same time. It makes other less experienced producers master to the same loudness just to compete in the clubs but its a necessary evil cos most djs are pushing the dj mixer to its limits anyway. Its a shame cos the loudness wars are still going on for club music whereas it seems to have backed off a bit everywhere else cosw of the streaming services.
@@mrpesk1 i get most of the gain by pushing the Limiter/EQ then boost the transients a bit if needed then add a db or 2 on the clipper but most of the work is done by the Limiter/EQ as it distorts a lot less than the clipper.
So would i be correct in thinking that mastering to -8 lufs will have a better rms average compared to -14 lufs? So when streaming services turn it down you kinda have a louder track after a fashion? Physco acoustically speaking?
-8dB sounds fuller/fatter but missing some punch and detail, -14dB can sometimes sound thinner but also more attacking. I have been just doing one master somewhere between the two, so about -12dB or a little louder. Try it out on loudness penalty website.
Hi Streaky, I agree that balanced dynamics sound better when normalized, obviously :-) I disagree that you need a louder version for "everywhere else", though. Most people hear things for the first time online, which is when it really counts. If they buy a CD, you've won - and they already liked the dynamic version online, so why would they want it with extra limiting on a higher-quality format ? I'm assuming the idea of needing a louder version for vinyl was just something you said on the fly and didn't really mean, though - vinyl cuts really benefit from extra dynamics, and can't be cut too hot in case they damage the lathe, so vinyl is the last place you need a louder version for. Anyway, great to see you did the test and are being honest about the results, even though it's different to what you've been saying for the last few years ! Kudos.
If only 17% of people turn off normalisation, then the vast majority don’t care, don’t know or are ok with how it sounds. People get used to things. And they’re listening on shitty earbuds or headphones. They’re also not as old as streaky or I 😂 Just my opinion anyway.
In a previous life I worked in Reprographics. First question I asked was “Where is the final output going to be seen?” Was it a picture online, a billboard advert, a newspaper picture or a high end glossy magazine. All need different graphic resolutions, more or less photoshop work done, what quality was original photo or illustration etc. Point is, you tailor the work to where and how it’s going to be viewed or in this case, played and heard.
@@davedb7692 Except with audio, we can never be sure where it will be heard. People rip CDs to mp3, and listen to mobile streaming on high-end headphones. Mastering has always been about achieving *translation* - the best results on the widest range of systems. Mastering louder *won't* make it sound better on CD, or vinyl, or anywhere. You really can have one master to rule them all, if you can resist the "the market". Of course that's a big "if", as Streaky says, though :-/
@@ProductionAdvice the thing is that although the streaming platforms normalize to -14lufs, a song mastered at -8/-9 will sound louder than one at -14 even after the normalization, I have experienced this with my music and it's kinda depressing...It's even worse if you listen to your music on a USB stick in the car like I do, you have to always be reaching for the volume knob, and it's a drag...
i've seen and talked myself with mike dean (who mastered almost every travis scott song) and he goes for -9/-10 sometimes -8. i really don't care anymore, i just go with what sounds better for me, spotify normalization still fucks ur song in different ways so fuck it
loudness normalization is only activated on the phone and desktop app. lets say you connect to your smart speaker or car, listen to a playlist and you mastered your song only to -14lufs, its 100% going to be the most quiet one. + a lot of people deactive loudness normalization even if -14lufs sounds better, spotify and their playlists are a very competive space and loudness is the first impression a listener gets of your music imo you should master as loud as u can get the so to be and not as loud as spotify wants it to be
Yes true it’s an excellent point...I reckon is lot deactivate the loudness button but joe public probably thinks it’s a good thing...that’s why you need good mastering (ahem 🤦♂️) so you can get it sounding good at -8 and there is no need to worry...🙏👍
Close to -8 is best Streaky a lil bit squashed wont hurt i think as longnas its not overly killed. -8 to -10 i feel is a great place for streaming masters ive tried the -14 and the track lacked the competition to others even with the normalisation on, it lacked energy.
I mean, I currently make only one master at the loudness sweetspot that works best, i don't go crazy loud, but a lot of music can endp up at around -11 LUFS for example, and that's not a problem when it goes up on streaming platforms. It's just turned down. I guess what I'm asking, is how come now you actually prefer, or say that the less limited version "SOUNDS BETTER" if you used to say that you "MISSED THAT SOUND" when it was not as limited. Serious questions, but again as I said, with all due respect, just trying to have a conversation.
The -14 Lufs master sounds better on my Audiotechnica M50x, but is it worth the hassle? I mean the difference is subtle, and people who listen it on TH-cam or Spotify won't listen to it on a professional set of headphones, studio monitors or hi-fi system... also the resolution will be compressed into an mp3 or similar file anyway. I'm just having this debate with myself. :)
Hey streaky, been binging a lot of your videos lately. Had a blast. Did you ever make a video on the room that youre in? What is the shape of the room, and what's the philosophy behind it? Cheers m8
I totally understand your point here, but in another video about a year ago you said that mastering to -8 LUFS/ RMS would make your track stack up alongside other commercial releases better than a track that's been mastered to -14
I've analyzed some professional tracks and I have seen a true peak that goes over 0. I have also seen this in a comparison video you did. I asked this once before and you said that true peak can go over depending on the track. Can you expand on that? I am very curious about this. And sorry that this is a question about true peak in a LUFS video.
Some are letting the tracks go over peak...it will sound ok some some systems but the majority it will give distortion etc so best to play it safe and limit the peaks...
In your example, to me both the -14 and -8 sound the same in terms of overall volume. So quick question: should the -8 LUF and the -14 LUF masters sound the same in terms of loudness? The reason I ask is because the person doing my master says that if he does a version for -14 LUF, it will be "significantly" lower in volume compared to the -8 LUF, which I'm guessing would still result in low volume on Spotify. Shouldn't my mixing guy be able to get the actual loudness of the -14 to sound like the loudness of the -8 version?
they are both normalized to -14 LUFS playback level. The comparison is for tone and impact differences. there are few because he is really good at his job.
All new songs either on Spotify or itunes or other platform have very much gain 98-99 even 100 and very hard bass, they are more lofi, also the flat waveform that surpasses the ceiling hardens more kick, bass, drums
Thr crazy thing is. I have hedd monitors wrapped in blankets. I bought them partly due to your review. I'm listening to this comparison on a phone. Phone doesn't even have an input to plug in headphones. This is the future ?
I've mastered to the Apple Music standard for streaming, but when I hear those tracks in a playlist (even with Spotify normalization on), they still sounds quieter than the tracks from major labels. Not sure what's going on there - any pointers? I've started to push the masters just a bit more to level match. But then I got one of those on the radio, and they smashed it with a limiter, so it sounded dreadful. So I've also started to print Radio mixes, that has less subs and highs and are quieter (about -12), so they can withstand a crude limiter treatment. But then again, different radios does different things, so it's a jungle.. and then we have these TH-camrs who varies a lot too, here is Streaky and at Sonic Scoop they tell a different story.. it's all over the place!
Excellent video, thanks. I do like the demo. To me the -14LUFS version sounds clearly better (less crushed). Having said that I generally prefer old CDs (before the urge to achieve hitting the digital peak became a thing). Bring back the Sony PCM701.
I agree for -14LUFS is better and it was in older cds , at least in Greece, around -16 to -14LUFS. The problem is that on digital platforms -14LUFS is a myth in my opinion, because sound is extremely loud on Spotify or tidal.
how do you approach doing two masters? the more dynamic streaming version 1st? Do you then start from scratch, just tweak parameters, add something to the chain?
LUFS both shot and integrated are #1 good sounding mix and balance between gain weight and compression in Limiter , by balancing those two you will get more optimal results and after some time you will use it to achieve optimized Audio with almost none of Loudness Penalty. That's it. Life is Beautiful.
The only difference that I did notice was the width was wider at - 8 lufs …. I master to 0 Db with a brick wall limiter enabled to the point where the audio is not even hitting the limiter. I also don't use limiters & or compressors at all when mixing, I just gain stage each level individually so compression or limiting isn't needed, the brick wall limiter is only at the very end of my mastering chain, so I can keep my song just under hitting it not actually physically being used to reduce volume at all, its just for visual referencing purposes only .
same here. I mixed a single at -9 lufs and it sounded great. I did another at -14 lufs and it sounded weak and not as impressive. Now I"m just trusting my ears but being sensitive to each project. Some projects that I mix that are more acoustic or organic sound just as good quieter, while others tend to gain something when pushed but not pushed above -14lufs
To make sure I understand, you make a main mix that targets around -8 LUFS. Then if you are sending this same mix to a streaming platform, do you just use a gain plug-in to export a version that has been gained down to meet -14 LUFS? Or are you using different limiter settings to induce different dynamic range (less squash) so the meter never exceeds -14?
So both are level matched...OK. That threw me for a loop looking at the You Lean Integrated meters. After I got past that I definitely heard the -8 LUFS version sounds less open (mashed) conpared to the the -14 LUFS track. Thanks.
What if you have multiple songs for an album. And say one sounds better when it hits the limiter harder and the other one sounds better with less limiting and you end up with one at -11 LUFS and another at -7 LUFS. Should you limit them both to be the same volume somewhere in the middle, or limit it so it sounds good and then just lower the volume (post-limiter) of the louder one to match? (essentially the way you matched the A/B test here)
Thank you for sharing sooo much helpful information on mastering...i have a Question- Is it Ok to use a limiter if you are Just making a beat to send to a singer to Record a song to...if the answer is yes, how loud can i make it without causing issues down the line when they are mixing and mastering the resulting song after vocal recording
I think it's important to mention that LUFS measures your peak levels across the whole track so if you have extreme dynamic ranges it is important to be aware of that when mixing. When a song starts off with a single instrument for instance, and then suddenly everyone comes in, it is better to increase the volume of the single instrument parts to more closely match the levels of the overall main outs. Of course dynamics must be considered but when adjusting to -14 LUFS it is easy to have the low parts of a song end up sounding too low.
that's what drives me mad with this whole discussion; the whole track should be considered not the loudest part; and having some dynamic in a piece is not necessarily a bad thing; so having the loudest part to -10 and quietest to -18 or so would not necessarily result in a "penalty" from streaming services. also completely depends on the genre; "sounding compressed" is a desired outcome for electronic music tracks (don't overdo it of course); not for a jazz band. You can do a bit of automation in your mix to have quieter parts a bit louder but I like a bit of dynamic over a whole track.
@@valdir7426 I've been learning to sometimes use saturation a little more often as opposed to EQ and I've found it can help keep a smooth dynamic range without increasing volume. I've even experimented with using a multi compressor when mastering. It's handy if you have a meter that reads LUFS so you can watch the effects of certain bandwidths on the LUFS meter. Makes it easier to dial in the tonality.
This is a good video, except for the example of a song that they used. The song is so busy with instrumentation, that it's difficult to hear any "air" in a production that is that full of instrumentation. Plus the voice was buried in some kind of reverb, and that coulds it too. Using a song that has lesss "busy" sound, where indivudual instrument could be heard, and the voice could be heard, would be a much better example of squashing dynamic range with -8 LUF.
Big misconception is that Spotify and Apple Music do this limiting to -14LUFS no matter what. I've found it only does it if the LISTENER has the audio normalization option turned on. I uploaded at -14 LUFS and my single is WOEFULLY lower than modern mixes even with audio normalization turned off. I feel like not enough people are talking about this. How many people actually use Sound Check or Audio Normalizing? I certainly don't.
Ok, what I'd like to know is WHY does it have to be exactly -14 or -8??? What is wrong with the range in between? There are 5 more decibels it can be mastered at not to mention the fractions between so why are we stuck on these two oddly even numbers? Is this really black and white, no grey?
I find it really impressive how some people here comment so negatively and saying "but thats not what you said 10 years ago!". I personally find it a virtue for someone to change his mind and stay in motion and keep evolving. I mean he did not force anyone to follow him now did he?. Eveyone has his own part of responsibility my friends. Unless you are 3 years old. Dont make it too easy for yourselves . So while you are complaining i listen to this video here and see someone who actually knows what he is doing. I mean the matching of the two versions acoustically is very good and the masters are very good too. So stop complaining and let go.
June 7 2019 Streaky says the more limited sound is something he likes, August 29 2019 Streaky says -14 is nonsense. January 15 2021 Streaky says, don't go above -14 LUFS if it's only for streaming. I respect you fully, I do think you're a good mastering engineer, but it's kind of a weird thing for you to advocate something different all of a sudden, since you used to say you liked that "modern, limited sound" and if you don't go as loud, you miss that sound. What changed?
@@attiliohollige Yeah, but he argued the opposite point for two years. And now changed his opinion and offered no proper explanation for why he changed his mind.
@@BeingAMonkey this is an absolutely daft comment. Engineers change their opinions on things all the time. Only an idiot would think that because one’s workflow a way two years ago, it ought to remain the same today. You change as you receive more information or experiment with new releases. That’s how engineering works. It’s not one-fits-all. He’s sharing his opinion, it’s up to you if you want it or not.
Yep that’s why you need one master at -8 for all platform that sounds great so you don’t have to consider these things...this video was just to show that if you do level match a heavily limited version with a non limited -14 version the -14 wins
@Streaky yes, i was struggeling also with this, but after a couple of tests i think the only reason i think it makes sence is for example when you a music video for youtube in a promo phase and you want to sound as best as possible "at he moment" and its not so neccessery what it sounds in years compered to other releases.
A couple of videos ago you said you like the modern sound of -8 LUFS and that -14 sounds unfinished and also that no major label has ever asked you for different master versions. Now you say you prefer -14 and that we should do two masters?! Please clarify!
It defo depends on the genre, dance music sounds good with the limiter compression sound (track dependent) but after some heavy testing I changed my mind 👍 especially on mixes with acoustic instruments like the example in this video
My mix always sounds clean and when i check on the lufs in youlean, mine shows around -5 lufs which is super loud. But it's sounds great rather than when i master it. How am i reaching that much lufs and is it getting crushed when i am putting it onto SoundCloud?
Something I still don't understand about this is how much peak reduction is happening at -14 vs -8 LUFS. In Pro-L2 I can push the gain up and cut 3-5 db off of the peaks and hit -8 LUFS, and then I can just bring the output level down until it reads -14 LUFS. In both cases the peak reduction is the same, so the song sounds identical. It's just at a different output level. If I try to hit -14 LUFS by not increasing my gain, most of the time the limiter won't actually be doing any gain reduction at all. I might as well not use a limiter. Is that what's happening here?
Again. People are confusing MIXING VS MASTERING. Mix for -14 as a nice target to get a good dynamic mix that is ready to be MASTERED. Hitting your plugins at a good level, etc. THEN the you MASTER or have it MASTERED, to bring it up to -10, -8, -6, or whatever is appropriate for the genre. That is the point of -14 LUFS.
You don't want it on vinyl only what has to be there you would want 14 not 8? That robs the Dynamics, surely in a digital formats you could choose between the two settings on playback why don't they do that?
Mixing and mastering metal to -14 LUFS and trying to get it to punch is going to put me in the ground 😂 My -8 masters sound just as ferocious as the bands that inspire me when I do A and B checks so that will do. I even used a loudness penalty converter I found online to compare the same A and B mixes and truth be told, their getting penalised more than me! 😂
So if any sound at all goes over the -14LUFS mark, TH-cam and Instagram will automatically mess with the volume and squish it down? My mix sounds fine before I upload it to TH-cam and Instagram, but then it sounds horrible and squished to death after it goes on these platforms, and it's saying that the content loudness is -4.1db? What am I doing wrong here?...SBN RESONATE
I still do not understand what minus 8 or minus 14 LUFS is ? I always use a Waves L2 at the end of the chain and I use my ears, so it doesn’t “Limit / Compress” too much. I set the max to 0.0 or -0.1. Where does the LUFS read and what is it ?
Can you tell me some of your video you say to do a -14 LUfS and some other you say you only mix at -8 ! What are you recommending I am a DJ and I also want my music to stands out on Spotify !?
How about this scenario. I use Distrokid to distribute and release my songs. They even have a List-----about 25 different music venues------of whom they distribute them to. And they ALL have different parameters! Because to me, Spotify is the NORM, I master my songs to -14 LUFS. And this is going to continue to be a nightmare for folks like me until someone pulls all theses services together, and they AGREE ON ONE LUFS Norm! And I bet there are other peers who might comment and say the same thing as me.
Hey Streaky, you said that streaming services bringing the level down to -14 LUFS is exactly the same as when the radio station put everything through a brickwall limiter, but this is simply not true... Streaming services adjust the gain by a constant value across the entire track, which means the relative dynamics remain unchanged. It's like turning the volume down on a speaker and leaving it there for the entire track, which makes no difference to the music itself. On the other hand a brickwall limiter does affect the relative dynamics, so it can potentially create something like pumping, for example. It's an artistic part of the process because it changes the tonal balance of the track, whereas loudness normalization doesn't.
No you misunderstood me I said we had to guess the settings of the radio broadcast compressor and now we know the settings...so you can make it sound good for streaming but best as in the old days to master a track well to the loudest and best you can do it doesn’t matter where it’s going it will compete and sound good against it’s competition (if that’s why you are making it loud!)
If you care about your artistic legacy, keep in mind that the dynamics you sacrifice on the altar of loudness might be lost forever unless you preserve your pre-masters. Legendary engineer Bruce Swedien kept his because he felt dynamics were vital to conveying the impact and realism of live performance, something he thought was often lost in mastering. Bob Ludwig and other influential members of the Audio Engineering Society have been urging artists and industry to lower mastering levels for years for the same reason. The importance of loudness has been oversold, it's even less relevant in the streaming age, and the damage chasing it has done to recorded music over the decades is tragic. A shit song is shit at any level. A great song is usually better when it's dynamic. Do what's right for the music. Listeners still have volume knobs if they want to turn something up.
Yes, I agree. I always hated the way limited music sounded. My levels are whatever they are going to be after I am happy with the dynamics. That is usually -14 to -12 for rock and metal with real musicians and real instruments.
I send out my songs to streaming platforms at -11 LUFS but my songs still sound quieter than most songs that are on the same streaming platforms. Any idea why that may be?
Hello I enjoyed your video but I do have a question. I have a previous CD that was mastered too hot, with too much compression. Do you know anyway to uncompress a song?
The only target you should aim for is the target that achieves balance between loudness, clarity and transient presence. That target varies between different genres, you don't necessarily have to shoot for a specific number (-14 lufs, for example), but DEFINITELY do not master a jazz tune with the mindset and approach of mastering an EDM track.
FINALLY!! This. YES
I wonder if normalization process happens before or after the music is encoded. If it happens after, then I guess we need to really care about intersample peaks. But if it happens before, then it wouldn't really make any difference. The amount of music that doesn't care about intersample peaks and still sounds great on Spotify is very significant.
Yes I like this idea about the "official" version and the "streaming" version. I work at the amateur level, I am far from you, but since I work with musicians managing their music themselves, I sometimes propose them an official "to the world" version and a "streaming version" as well. As you mention, although it is possible to make a song at -8 LUFS sound "as good" as at -14 LUFS, "as good" does not mean identical and me personally I prefer the more open sound, less compressed, but this is my taste, nobody has to agree with this. And very often, my "streaming version" master will sound louder on the streaming platforms than the "loud" version master because before the limiter, I have total control on the dynamic of each part of the song so I can control each part individually so that I make sure that the most important parts of the song sounds louder. As we know, we have to think the opposite way when we are mastering for streaming: if your song is a little above -14 LUFS, let say -12 LUFS, to make the choruses to play louder on streaming platforms, you simply put the verses less loud or some less important parts subtly more quiet and that will bring down the average LUFS level of the whole song so it means less gain reduction by the streaming platform, which means that the choruses will play even louder than before lowering the quiet parts. But after the limiter, it is much more difficult to control these aspects so very often I will do a master without limiter at all for TH-cam or streaming platforms (with care about the optimal loudness of the stream platforms as calculated by some well-known tools) and compensate by other compression methods to make it sound strong and glued but very dynamic (my weird way to work, I am weird and I fully assume it haha). Thanks for your awesome advices as always! Much appreciated that you take some of your precious time to assist us!
I’m glad I found your channel. I do have a question about my Music. I haven’t found a video on your channel where you discuss mastering or mixing cinematic/instrumental music. I’m
Having a hard time finding the right levels. Thanks so much for all your work.
I've just been sending the same file out to all the stores/streaming services...
Lol me too bro!!!
It's my understanding that even if you submit - 8LUFS to a service like Spotify, that when they turn it down, it's not compressed but rather brought down in the fashion of a volume fader without any dynamic loss. Therefore, shooting for -14 LUFS isn't necessary at all. I'm confused. 🙄
Because we usually master to -8 by limiting
Aligns 100% with my findings. -14 on Soundcloud sounds weak as well. -8 or -9 seems to be the current standard for electronic music.
Thanks for this comparison, but in my opinion this kind of track/mix itself is sounding already very compressed in each element, so I think if you do such comparison it’s better to use a track with more transient-emphasized (such as many ear candy stuff) elements in it.
AGREED !!!!!!
I don't hear any difference at the end of video - none on headphones or PC speakers, does it mean I'm musically deaf?
the song gives me nostalgic FIFA 2004 soundtrack vibes 😍
As someone who's followed you for a long time, I've probably seen more of your takes on this topic than most people here. You've said this 3 times already but said different things on it. This time you're saying that it sounds better at -14lufs, and last time you said it sounds better at -8rms because of the forward push and crush it gives that we're used to hearing as a familiar sound, and then before that you said master to -9lufs and then reduce the output volume by 1db afterwards to help the streaming services.
So the question is.. what the heck is right? Are the previous ones wrong?
You also said that NO big label has ever requested -14 from you. So what now?
Speaking straight out of my soul!
Thought the same....he has charged hisntune....also, not everybody has this auto volume function turned on in Spotify , like me....
First point is about audio quality alone (sonic life and breath) the second is cultural norms (and genre norms) as ‘crushing’ or ‘pumping’ is a form of simulating a loud concert (110db) even though you’re only listening to it at 60db.
The last point is an economical way or hedging. It might be difficult for people to have many versions, particularly when third parties are involved so this is the closest to “one size fits all”.
They’re all the same topic but different problem solving angles within the topic.
He said 8 and 14, so...
ive written a comment above explaining my point. just master as loud as u can get your song to be. but dont make extreme compromises just for the sake of loudness :)
Hi Streaky. I've been mastering for a number of years and feel that I have been able to reach minus 10 to minus 8 for CD and still have the tracks sounding good with (at least) the impression of good dynamics. The artists and clients have all been happy with my work. However, recently I have worked on a couple of modern country albums and have been referencing some releases from some top American artists. Some of these tracks are extremely hot (-7 LUFS integrated), both on CD and also on Spotify with volume compensation off. I have been happy that I have got very much in the same ballpark for CD- as requested by the client. The issue is that even though some of the reference tracks are louder than my masters (both by listening and measurement) and can sound quite squashed, they are still noticeably louder than my stuff when played on Spotify with the volume compensation on. They seemingly haven't had the same 'loudness penalty' as my masters even though mine are equally or more dynamic. I feel like I'm missing a trick somewhere! I've tried everything from -14 streaming versions to -8, more or less compression etc.....Any suggestions as to why this might be?
Normally this is perceived loudest due to the mix ha big more space and less processed....perceived loudness is the key and the thing you need to learn 👍
@@Streaky_com Thanks very much for the reply! I do understand that, but perhaps this subject is too broad for a comments section conversation. Always enjoy your vids, never too old to learn something! Cheers!
There are three points to watch out for when trying to make a loud mix & master for streaming:
1. Well balanced EQ. There should not be any muddiness, or any unwanted frequencies on the individual tracks or the mix as a whole. That will only trigger the LUFS meter but not add any percieved loudness. Cut bass on tracks that don't need it, try to remove any extra harshness in the treble content, and try to minimize any kind of boxiness or mud in the mid frequencies.
2. Dynamic content is favoured. Short loud noises, like drums, won't trigger the algorithm as much as long sustained sounds, like keyboards or guitars. This means drums can be quite loud compared to other elements in the mix. But be careful with ride and crash cymbals since these are longer, more sustained sounds.
3. Treble triggers the alorithm more than low frequencies. So keep the treble in your mix under control.
I don't understand sir, the tracks you played at the end both showing around 14-15 lufs, how's the other track is -8 lufs?
If I understood correctly, he mastered it to -8 and then lowered the output around 6db to match the -14.
Not a single track on Soundcloud is mastered to - 14 lufs. I did a test, uploaded 2 identical tracks, one with - 14 lufs, - 1 dB TP and the other one with +6 lufs and +6 dB TP. Guess which one sounded louder.
Amen. Fully Agree
Ok, so I watched my first videos from your channel, and your backdrop was just like you sit before a green screen. Then the "3-D dog animation" of the backdrop started. Huh. Nice place you have there, dear Sir! :-)
What about true peak level? Most mastering engineers I know have the last limiter ceiling at around -0.3 and don't care about ISP. But nowadays it all comes distorting from Spotify or Tidal. Spotify for mobile can raise a master's true peak level from -0,3 to +2dB and then its going to distort like hell when listened through Instagram (and many artists promote their music via instagram)
Yes but the distro services only allow for ONE format for Amazon, iTunes stores and all streaming. So now what would you deliver??
Awesome tune! 8:37 sounds like a nod to "Firestarter". Another great video.
Thx 🙏
I think for the featured track, it's easier to get away with -14LUFS because the mix is so dense and has a low crest factor. But I think on electronic music, it's harder to make -14 LUFS sound professional and finished. For me, EDM at -14 LUFS doesn't sound finished. Great video as always, love the dog.
Cheers yes every track needs testing
That’s a classic case of ear trickery, listen to many EDM tracks being slammed with a limiter, inc distortion and low LUFS, once you get used to listening to a lot of these it becomes the norm..it doesn’t make them good IMHO..
@@boomish69 Kind of like using a compressor on a vocal track? Very unnatural.
I'm glad that you specified Electronic Dance Music. This is because basically, this type of music is a noise fest (It's de facto kind of an excuse for a beat.) It's very design is for minimal sections, where soft volumes are used (dynamic range.) Not all dance music is loud (think the subtlety of bossa nova, or a minuete), but a lot of it is loud. Electronic amplification ramped this up big time. When big bands (dance music) were playing, the horns could only get so loud. They weren't nearly as loud as modern dance music. Other forms of music, there are many of them, truly can have a dynamic range. This is where -14 LUF can truly show its value. It can show the virtues of having a dynamic range in music. It can show the "air" in between instruments and voices. EDM is noise fest. It doesn't appear to me that having "air" in the sound, is a feature of relentless beats, and respetative synthsizers lines. Yes, with EDM you don't have to worry about dynamic range because the inherent nature of that musc form means that there is little to begin with.
I guess here’s my issue... I only play, mix and master my own stuff and it’s metal music. I can master a piece to -8 RMS or -8 LUFS and then play it right behind a professional track and there’s a MASSIVE difference. I pushed a piece this morning where the short terms LUFS were like -5 and it STILL sounded insanely quiet compared to a professional track played back to back even though it wasn’t distorting an insane amount. There’s a breakdown somewhere that I’m missing and I don’t know if it’s in the mastering phase or the mixing phase.
I am absolutely NOT an authority on this but...is your Sound Check option turned on? If so, when you’re making it louder, the system is just turning it down more. Try backing off the level a bit and see if that brings the volume up when you listen. I’ve found this to be the case for myself. I always listen with Sound Check on AND off to make sure it sounds good regardless of how the listener has their situation set up.
Send me it on an email and I’ll let you knoe
@@leonb456 I’m not sure what the Sound Check option is. I play a track on Apple Music and then compare my exported wave file to that. What is this Sound Check and where do I find it? LoL
@@Streaky_com sending now boss man! I’ll send the export with and without mastering. Maybe I suck that much at mixing...
@@dannyleftridgemusic on your iPhone or whatever device you’re using...go to Settings>Music>Sound Check. You probably also want to make sure your EQ is off (it’s in the same place as the Sound Check). If you’re on a computer, the option is under Music>Preferences>Playback.
Thank you!!!! Its a big help as we are pulling our hair and ears out over this. Do we like pulling the volume knob up? Maybe there is something about that? So many possibilities!
This is pain. I spend so much time on final loudness decisions 😅 Thank you for approval. Less limited sounds better.
Hi guys,
The thing is that I measure loudness from youtube music through Youlean for some major songs, every single one is a lot above -14 lufs integrated, with true peak well above -1. Usually I measured around -9 lufs and +0.5 (and above to +1) true peak. How does this explained according to spotify/youtube loudness policies?
I'm pretty sure about my measurements that I did with different methods (streaming, downloading,...) on major hits.
Cheers
C.
When someone listen to your -14db lufs song without volume equalization it's going to be a lot quieter than pro records. The loudness is in the mix. When you get better at balancing your mix you notice that it's easy to get etc -7db lufa loudness. This has been the biggest struggle for me personally for so long.
most DnB club music is a least -6 LUFS , ive found the average to be around - 5 - 4 LUFS on the heaver stuff tho it takes a lot of skill for it to be that loud and still sound good.
Yeah that’s called good mixing and mastering...but it doesn’t mean it will sound better when the level is pulled down if it’s for streaming only...(depends on the track etc) but you would want it super loud if just giving out to people or it would sound pretty weak against the competition 👍
@@Streaky_com yeah I don't really like the fact that people go above -6 cos certain tunes can't get that loud without sounding good , especially if they have vocals and sub bass at the same time.
It makes other less experienced producers master to the same loudness just to compete in the clubs but its a necessary evil cos most djs are pushing the dj mixer to its limits anyway.
Its a shame cos the loudness wars are still going on for club music whereas it seems to have backed off a bit everywhere else cosw of the streaming services.
@@Streaky_com Have you checked out newfangled audios "Elevate"? i can get stuff 2-3 db louder without it distorting.
@@EdSoloUK do you use all the elevate suite or just the limiter?
@@mrpesk1 i get most of the gain by pushing the Limiter/EQ then boost the transients a bit if needed then add a db or 2 on the clipper but most of the work is done by the Limiter/EQ as it distorts a lot less than the clipper.
So would i be correct in thinking that mastering to -8 lufs will have a better rms average compared to -14 lufs? So when streaming services turn it down you kinda have a louder track after a fashion? Physco acoustically speaking?
-8 will sound louder for sure even wen turned down
-8dB sounds fuller/fatter but missing some punch and detail, -14dB can sometimes sound thinner but also more attacking.
I have been just doing one master somewhere between the two, so about -12dB or a little louder.
Try it out on loudness penalty website.
Hi Streaky, I agree that balanced dynamics sound better when normalized, obviously :-)
I disagree that you need a louder version for "everywhere else", though. Most people hear things for the first time online, which is when it really counts. If they buy a CD, you've won - and they already liked the dynamic version online, so why would they want it with extra limiting on a higher-quality format ?
I'm assuming the idea of needing a louder version for vinyl was just something you said on the fly and didn't really mean, though - vinyl cuts really benefit from extra dynamics, and can't be cut too hot in case they damage the lathe, so vinyl is the last place you need a louder version for.
Anyway, great to see you did the test and are being honest about the results, even though it's different to what you've been saying for the last few years ! Kudos.
Thought you’d like this vid...😂
I’ve always thought it sounds better but unfortunately “the market” always wants the louder one!
One day maybe!
If only 17% of people turn off normalisation, then the vast majority don’t care, don’t know or are ok with how it sounds. People get used to things. And they’re listening on shitty earbuds or headphones.
They’re also not as old as streaky or I 😂
Just my opinion anyway.
In a previous life I worked in Reprographics. First question I asked was “Where is the final output going to be seen?”
Was it a picture online, a billboard advert, a newspaper picture or a high end glossy magazine.
All need different graphic resolutions, more or less photoshop work done, what quality was original photo or illustration etc.
Point is, you tailor the work to where and how it’s going to be viewed or in this case, played and heard.
@@davedb7692 Except with audio, we can never be sure where it will be heard. People rip CDs to mp3, and listen to mobile streaming on high-end headphones.
Mastering has always been about achieving *translation* - the best results on the widest range of systems. Mastering louder *won't* make it sound better on CD, or vinyl, or anywhere. You really can have one master to rule them all, if you can resist the "the market".
Of course that's a big "if", as Streaky says, though :-/
@@ProductionAdvice the thing is that although the streaming platforms normalize to -14lufs, a song mastered at -8/-9 will sound louder than one at -14 even after the normalization, I have experienced this with my music and it's kinda depressing...It's even worse if you listen to your music on a USB stick in the car like I do, you have to always be reaching for the volume knob, and it's a drag...
What is the level that I have to push my track to to be able to streame it on youtube and other platforms in general in 2024 ?
i've seen and talked myself with mike dean (who mastered almost every travis scott song) and he goes for -9/-10 sometimes -8. i really don't care anymore, i just go with what sounds better for me, spotify normalization still fucks ur song in different ways so fuck it
it does bro. because they going for normalization instead of the quality of the track. the beauty of music is it all sounds different.
@@fayzewun1268 yeah, but even if u follow their rules u gonna lost a lot of quality due the codec.
loudness normalization is only activated on the phone and desktop app. lets say you connect to your smart speaker or car, listen to a playlist and you mastered your song only to -14lufs, its 100% going to be the most quiet one. + a lot of people deactive loudness normalization
even if -14lufs sounds better, spotify and their playlists are a very competive space and loudness is the first impression a listener gets of your music
imo you should master as loud as u can get the so to be and not as loud as spotify wants it to be
Yes true it’s an excellent point...I reckon is lot deactivate the loudness button but joe public probably thinks it’s a good thing...that’s why you need good mastering (ahem 🤦♂️) so you can get it sounding good at -8 and there is no need to worry...🙏👍
Close to -8 is best Streaky a lil bit squashed wont hurt i think as longnas its not overly killed. -8 to -10 i feel is a great place for streaming masters ive tried the -14 and the track lacked the competition to others even with the normalisation on, it lacked energy.
I mean, I currently make only one master at the loudness sweetspot that works best, i don't go crazy loud, but a lot of music can endp up at around -11 LUFS for example, and that's not a problem when it goes up on streaming platforms. It's just turned down. I guess what I'm asking, is how come now you actually prefer, or say that the less limited version "SOUNDS BETTER" if you used to say that you "MISSED THAT SOUND" when it was not as limited. Serious questions, but again as I said, with all due respect, just trying to have a conversation.
He evolved
The -14 Lufs master sounds better on my Audiotechnica M50x, but is it worth the hassle? I mean the difference is subtle, and people who listen it on TH-cam or Spotify won't listen to it on a professional set of headphones, studio monitors or hi-fi system... also the resolution will be compressed into an mp3 or similar file anyway. I'm just having this debate with myself. :)
Cute dog sniffling around 😁
Hey streaky, been binging a lot of your videos lately. Had a blast. Did you ever make a video on the room that youre in? What is the shape of the room, and what's the philosophy behind it?
Cheers m8
No but will 👍
I totally understand your point here, but in another video about a year ago you said that mastering to -8 LUFS/ RMS would make your track stack up alongside other commercial releases better than a track that's been mastered to -14
I changed my view on it after loads of testing but you still have to master to -8
I've analyzed some professional tracks and I have seen a true peak that goes over 0. I have also seen this in a comparison video you did. I asked this once before and you said that true peak can go over depending on the track. Can you expand on that? I am very curious about this. And sorry that this is a question about true peak in a LUFS video.
Some are letting the tracks go over peak...it will sound ok some some systems but the majority it will give distortion etc so best to play it safe and limit the peaks...
In your example, to me both the -14 and -8 sound the same in terms of overall volume. So quick question: should the -8 LUF and the -14 LUF masters sound the same in terms of loudness? The reason I ask is because the person doing my master says that if he does a version for -14 LUF, it will be "significantly" lower in volume compared to the -8 LUF, which I'm guessing would still result in low volume on Spotify. Shouldn't my mixing guy be able to get the actual loudness of the -14 to sound like the loudness of the -8 version?
Spotify won't playback at -8. On the loud setting it plays at -10. At normal (default) it plays back at -14 regardless.
they are both normalized to -14 LUFS playback level. The comparison is for tone and impact differences. there are few because he is really good at his job.
Tanks! Short but nice explanation naming Howie :-) il stay at -14 LUFS for vinyls xxx
Yep
All new songs either on Spotify or itunes or other platform have very much gain 98-99 even 100 and very hard bass, they are more lofi, also the flat waveform that surpasses the ceiling hardens more kick, bass, drums
Gwarn streaky. I didn't know you cut vinyl. Proper engineer
Thank you so much, I have asked this in your webinar and here is the answer!
I aim to please 👍😂😂
You change you mind , you have many video there you said dont master to 14 lufs, Master until it sound good you have said for years.
@@henningbortne8650 i think you should sue him. How dare he change his mind? !!!
@@saardean4481 May sue you, just for fun😂
@@henningbortne8650 :-)
Thr crazy thing is. I have hedd monitors wrapped in blankets. I bought them partly due to your review.
I'm listening to this comparison on a phone.
Phone doesn't even have an input to plug in headphones.
This is the future ?
If there is Loudness Penalty, there sould be Quietness Penalty aswell.
You cant do good sounding music if it is too quiet.
thank you so much Streaky!
Royght! Love it, mate! Thanks as always!
Thank you! Such a cute dog btw
I've mastered to the Apple Music standard for streaming, but when I hear those tracks in a playlist (even with Spotify normalization on), they still sounds quieter than the tracks from major labels. Not sure what's going on there - any pointers? I've started to push the masters just a bit more to level match. But then I got one of those on the radio, and they smashed it with a limiter, so it sounded dreadful. So I've also started to print Radio mixes, that has less subs and highs and are quieter (about -12), so they can withstand a crude limiter treatment. But then again, different radios does different things, so it's a jungle.. and then we have these TH-camrs who varies a lot too, here is Streaky and at Sonic Scoop they tell a different story.. it's all over the place!
Excellent video, thanks. I do like the demo.
To me the -14LUFS version sounds clearly better (less crushed). Having said that I generally prefer old CDs (before the urge to achieve hitting the digital peak became a thing).
Bring back the Sony PCM701.
I agree for -14LUFS is better and it was in older cds , at least in Greece, around -16 to -14LUFS. The problem is that on digital platforms -14LUFS is a myth in my opinion, because sound is extremely loud on Spotify or tidal.
I usually aim for around -11 or -12 LUFS which is halfway between. It keeps both camps happy
Me too -11.
Yep Here to just works.
Do u set ur db to -1 first ? Then aim to -11 or 12 ? Thanks
@@northernlyrics7918 Hi Do you mean your Digital Peak to -1?
@@blueslsd ye mate I’m a bit confused if I need to watch both the db - 1 or the lufs or both lol
you desreve a youtube award. explinations done well..
it also depends on the genre, certain gernes like edm certain songs sounds better squashed
how do you approach doing two masters? the more dynamic streaming version 1st? Do you then start from scratch, just tweak parameters, add something to the chain?
LUFS both shot and integrated are #1 good sounding mix and balance between gain weight and compression in Limiter , by balancing those two you will get more optimal results and after some time you will use it to achieve optimized Audio with almost none of Loudness Penalty. That's it. Life is Beautiful.
Thanks for concise & precise tip without beating around with anything.
The only difference that I did notice was the width was wider at - 8 lufs …. I master to 0 Db with a brick wall limiter enabled to the point where the audio is not even hitting the limiter.
I also don't use limiters & or compressors at all when mixing, I just gain stage each level individually so compression or limiting isn't needed, the brick wall limiter is only at the very end of my mastering chain, so I can keep my song just under hitting it not actually physically being used to reduce volume at all, its just for visual referencing purposes only .
I’ve turned tracks down to be -14 LuFS and released them and then re released them turning them up louder and it was def louder the second time
Depends on the track but yes they can...which is why I suggest mastering loud for most genres
same here. I mixed a single at -9 lufs and it sounded great. I did another at -14 lufs and it sounded weak and not as impressive. Now I"m just trusting my ears but being sensitive to each project. Some projects that I mix that are more acoustic or organic sound just as good quieter, while others tend to gain something when pushed but not pushed above -14lufs
Yes, your -8 sounds a little more distorted on my phone; like it has been pushed too hard. I much prefer the other. Thanks for the advise.
To make sure I understand, you make a main mix that targets around -8 LUFS. Then if you are sending this same mix to a streaming platform, do you just use a gain plug-in to export a version that has been gained down to meet -14 LUFS? Or are you using different limiter settings to induce different dynamic range (less squash) so the meter never exceeds -14?
So both are level matched...OK. That threw me for a loop looking at the You Lean Integrated meters. After I got past that I definitely heard the -8 LUFS version sounds less open (mashed) conpared to the the -14 LUFS track. Thanks.
What if you have multiple songs for an album. And say one sounds better when it hits the limiter harder and the other one sounds better with less limiting and you end up with one at -11 LUFS and another at -7 LUFS.
Should you limit them both to be the same volume somewhere in the middle, or limit it so it sounds good and then just lower the volume (post-limiter) of the louder one to match? (essentially the way you matched the A/B test here)
Make every track the best you can for that track and level match them after...
Thank you for sharing sooo much helpful information on mastering...i have a Question- Is it Ok to use a limiter if you are Just making a beat to send to a singer to Record a song to...if the answer is yes, how loud can i make it without causing issues down the line when they are mixing and mastering the resulting song after vocal recording
I I would both as long as the best isn’t clipping it will be better for them to process it later
Hi Streaky, just to clarify regarding -8Lufs or thereabouts... Is that short term loudness you're referring to or integrated?
Integrated
@@Streaky_com great thanks!
I think it's important to mention that LUFS measures your peak levels across the whole track so if you have extreme dynamic ranges it is important to be aware of that when mixing. When a song starts off with a single instrument for instance, and then suddenly everyone comes in, it is better to increase the volume of the single instrument parts to more closely match the levels of the overall main outs. Of course dynamics must be considered but when adjusting to -14 LUFS it is easy to have the low parts of a song end up sounding too low.
that's what drives me mad with this whole discussion; the whole track should be considered not the loudest part; and having some dynamic in a piece is not necessarily a bad thing; so having the loudest part to -10 and quietest to -18 or so would not necessarily result in a "penalty" from streaming services. also completely depends on the genre; "sounding compressed" is a desired outcome for electronic music tracks (don't overdo it of course); not for a jazz band. You can do a bit of automation in your mix to have quieter parts a bit louder but I like a bit of dynamic over a whole track.
@@valdir7426 I've been learning to sometimes use saturation a little more often as opposed to EQ and I've found it can help keep a smooth dynamic range without increasing volume. I've even experimented with using a multi compressor when mastering. It's handy if you have a meter that reads LUFS so you can watch the effects of certain bandwidths on the LUFS meter. Makes it easier to dial in the tonality.
This is a good video, except for the example of a song that they used. The song is so busy with instrumentation, that it's difficult to hear any "air" in a production that is that full of instrumentation. Plus the voice was buried in some kind of reverb, and that coulds it too. Using a song that has lesss "busy" sound, where indivudual instrument could be heard, and the voice could be heard, would be a much better example of squashing dynamic range with -8 LUF.
Big misconception is that Spotify and Apple Music do this limiting to -14LUFS no matter what. I've found it only does it if the LISTENER has the audio normalization option turned on. I uploaded at -14 LUFS and my single is WOEFULLY lower than modern mixes even with audio normalization turned off. I feel like not enough people are talking about this. How many people actually use Sound Check or Audio Normalizing? I certainly don't.
Ok, what I'd like to know is WHY does it have to be exactly -14 or -8??? What is wrong with the range in between? There are 5 more decibels it can be mastered at not to mention the fractions between so why are we stuck on these two oddly even numbers? Is this really black and white, no grey?
I find it really impressive how some people here comment so negatively and saying "but thats not what you said 10 years ago!". I personally find it a virtue for someone to change his mind and stay in motion and keep evolving. I mean he did not force anyone to follow him now did he?. Eveyone has his own part of responsibility my friends. Unless you are 3 years old. Dont make it too easy for yourselves . So while you are complaining i listen to this video here and see someone who actually knows what he is doing. I mean the matching of the two versions acoustically is very good and the masters are very good too. So stop complaining and let go.
June 7 2019 Streaky says the more limited sound is something he likes, August 29 2019 Streaky says -14 is nonsense. January 15 2021 Streaky says, don't go above -14 LUFS if it's only for streaming. I respect you fully, I do think you're a good mastering engineer, but it's kind of a weird thing for you to advocate something different all of a sudden, since you used to say you liked that "modern, limited sound" and if you don't go as loud, you miss that sound. What changed?
But he's right!
@@attiliohollige Yeah, but he argued the opposite point for two years. And now changed his opinion and offered no proper explanation for why he changed his mind.
@@BeingAMonkey this is an absolutely daft comment. Engineers change their opinions on things all the time. Only an idiot would think that because one’s workflow a way two years ago, it ought to remain the same today. You change as you receive more information or experiment with new releases. That’s how engineering works. It’s not one-fits-all. He’s sharing his opinion, it’s up to you if you want it or not.
How's that gotcha feel? Change is everything.
@@thewizard5339 Dude, i was just asking for a proper explanation to why he changed his mind. Not criticizing him for doing so.
LUFS levels for radio?
Excuse my ignorance, but what's the difference between RMS & LUFS? Thanks in advance.
Yes... but the problem is, if for example spotify tomorrow changes his loudness rules. Maybe your -14lufs song lose against the other stuff...
Yep that’s why you need one master at -8 for all platform that sounds great so you don’t have to consider these things...this video was just to show that if you do level match a heavily limited version with a non limited -14 version the -14 wins
@Streaky yes, i was struggeling also with this, but after a couple of tests i think the only reason i think it makes sence is for example when you a music video for youtube in a promo phase and you want to sound as best as possible "at he moment" and its not so neccessery what it sounds in years compered to other releases.
A couple of videos ago you said you like the modern sound of -8 LUFS and that -14 sounds unfinished and also that no major label has ever asked you for different master versions. Now you say you prefer -14 and that we should do two masters?! Please clarify!
It defo depends on the genre, dance music sounds good with the limiter compression sound (track dependent) but after some heavy testing I changed my mind 👍 especially on mixes with acoustic instruments like the example in this video
My mix always sounds clean and when i check on the lufs in youlean, mine shows around -5 lufs which is super loud. But it's sounds great rather than when i master it. How am i reaching that much lufs and is it getting crushed when i am putting it onto SoundCloud?
Something I still don't understand about this is how much peak reduction is happening at -14 vs -8 LUFS. In Pro-L2 I can push the gain up and cut 3-5 db off of the peaks and hit -8 LUFS, and then I can just bring the output level down until it reads -14 LUFS. In both cases the peak reduction is the same, so the song sounds identical. It's just at a different output level. If I try to hit -14 LUFS by not increasing my gain, most of the time the limiter won't actually be doing any gain reduction at all. I might as well not use a limiter. Is that what's happening here?
Yes you would only use the limiter in that case to stop true peak overs
why did your track never show -8 lufs ? on both plugins approximately -14 -16
Is It only me that hears absolutely no differences between -8 and -14 in this video? Wearing Bose QC II.. With noise cancelling ON..
@@örk-xyz Thanks!
Can't heard any difference between both versions in my laptop speakers.
So should I send my music to streaming platforms @ -8dB or -14?!!! 🤔🤔🤔
Nice dog Streaky! is that a Golden Doodle puppy? I have a Golden Doodle that looks very similar to yours but it's much larger (95 pounds)
Again. People are confusing MIXING VS MASTERING.
Mix for -14 as a nice target to get a good dynamic mix that is ready to be MASTERED. Hitting your plugins at a good level, etc.
THEN the you MASTER or have it MASTERED, to bring it up to -10, -8, -6, or whatever is appropriate for the genre. That is the point of -14 LUFS.
Yes but audiophile don't want to compression especially on vinyl that should be alright?
Yeah same for vinyl
You don't want it on vinyl only what has to be there you would want 14 not 8? That robs the Dynamics,
surely in a digital formats you could choose between the two settings on playback why don't they do that?
Is going into the red the only way of -8 ??
Mixing and mastering metal to -14 LUFS and trying to get it to punch is going to put me in the ground 😂
My -8 masters sound just as ferocious as the bands that inspire me when I do A and B checks so that will do. I even used a loudness penalty converter I found online to compare the same A and B mixes and truth be told, their getting penalised more than me! 😂
I just want to know, normalize volume should be on or off?
WHAT ABOUT THE TRUE PEAK LEVEL?
So if any sound at all goes over the -14LUFS mark, TH-cam and Instagram will automatically mess with the volume and squish it down? My mix sounds fine before I upload it to TH-cam and Instagram, but then it sounds horrible and squished to death after it goes on these platforms, and it's saying that the content loudness is -4.1db? What am I doing wrong here?...SBN RESONATE
tha's true the -14 sound better but in spotify you can turn off the normalisation and then all the master at that value will sound lower
I still do not understand what minus 8 or minus 14 LUFS is ?
I always use a Waves L2 at the end of the chain and I use my ears, so it doesn’t “Limit / Compress” too much. I set the max to 0.0 or -0.1.
Where does the LUFS read and what is it ?
I’m so confused, why do both meters say -14 lufs at the end example? Isn’t one supposed to be -8?
Can you tell me some of your video you say to do a -14 LUfS and some other you say you only mix at -8 ! What are you recommending I am a DJ and I also want my music to stands out on Spotify !?
How about this scenario. I use Distrokid to distribute and release my songs. They even have a List-----about 25 different music venues------of whom they distribute them to. And they ALL have different parameters! Because to me, Spotify is the NORM, I master my songs to -14 LUFS. And this is going to continue to be a nightmare for folks like me until someone pulls all theses services together, and they AGREE ON ONE LUFS Norm! And I bet there are other peers who might comment and say the same thing as me.
From copyright/registration point of view, do you need to treat -8 and -14 versions as two different songs? Different ISRC codes for them and etc?
Streaky, have you ever used Genelec monitors for mastering? If so, what are your thoughts on them?
What happens with TH-cam? I don't mean TH-cam Music, i mean what happens with the audio of the videos? Does it get to -14 Lufs too?
First view.. thanks streaky
first reply :)
Hey Streaky, you said that streaming services bringing the level down to -14 LUFS is exactly the same as when the radio station put everything through a brickwall limiter, but this is simply not true...
Streaming services adjust the gain by a constant value across the entire track, which means the relative dynamics remain unchanged. It's like turning the volume down on a speaker and leaving it there for the entire track, which makes no difference to the music itself. On the other hand a brickwall limiter does affect the relative dynamics, so it can potentially create something like pumping, for example. It's an artistic part of the process because it changes the tonal balance of the track, whereas loudness normalization doesn't.
No you misunderstood me I said we had to guess the settings of the radio broadcast compressor and now we know the settings...so you can make it sound good for streaming but best as in the old days to master a track well to the loudest and best you can do it doesn’t matter where it’s going it will compete and sound good against it’s competition (if that’s why you are making it loud!)
So what I’m getting is as long as you hit somewhere between -14 and -8 LUFS, with RMS of -8, it will sound great anywhere.
If you care about your artistic legacy, keep in mind that the dynamics you sacrifice on the altar of loudness might be lost forever unless you preserve your pre-masters. Legendary engineer Bruce Swedien kept his because he felt dynamics were vital to conveying the impact and realism of live performance, something he thought was often lost in mastering. Bob Ludwig and other influential members of the Audio Engineering Society have been urging artists and industry to lower mastering levels for years for the same reason. The importance of loudness has been oversold, it's even less relevant in the streaming age, and the damage chasing it has done to recorded music over the decades is tragic. A shit song is shit at any level. A great song is usually better when it's dynamic. Do what's right for the music. Listeners still have volume knobs if they want to turn something up.
🙏
Yes, I agree. I always hated the way limited music sounded. My levels are whatever they are going to be after I am happy with the dynamics. That is usually -14 to -12 for rock and metal with real musicians and real instruments.
I send out my songs to streaming platforms at -11 LUFS but my songs still sound quieter than most songs that are on the same streaming platforms. Any idea why that may be?
perceived loudness
Hello I enjoyed your video but I do have a question. I have a previous CD that was mastered too hot, with too much compression. Do you know anyway to uncompress a song?