3:30 "Akira Toriyama supervised these panels" There's no way Toriyama, the man who invented AND THEN FORGOT ABOUT Super Saiyan 2, was paying attention to whether Future Vegeta should or should not have been a Super Saiyan.
I though a lot about this one too, and my conclusion was that vegeta did not become a ssj in the future timeline, for one reason and one reason only. He didn t know it was possible. What changed everything for main timeline vegeta is that by seeing another ssj, he understood that ssj was not a one time event every 1000 years, it became clear that you didn t have to be special or a legend to become one. It was an imense realization. As oppose to the one in the future where the only ssj was Goku. Vegeta s conclusion would be that you would need to be like goku to become one and so he never trained with that as a goal.
This makes no sense. Just seeing it once already tells him it's possible. A second super saiyan doesn't change that, it just causes further humiliation from the reality of being that far behind.
Have you even seen Dragon ball?. He said a couple of times that he not goku is the one from the royal bloodline that should be able to achieve the transformation. " if kakarot did it, I can do it "
Future vegeta was actually in super saiyan form when android 17 killed him. In the history of trunks TV special as well as the anime when Trunks recalls what happen to the Z fighters during his conversation with Perfect form Cell. Look it up it's there 👍🏼. Also one can assume future Vegeta saw Goku as a super saiyan again ( not only on dying namek when he was revived by the dragonballs) when Frieza and King Cold came to earth. In that timeline Goku used instant transmission to kill frieza and his father
@@samanthasmith7488 the discussion here is about the manga. In the anime and the special tv there is no need to guess as vegeta does appear as a ssj in both versions. About the number of times vegeta saw goku it was always most likely more than one,that is not what i said, I said that he only saw 1 super saiyan, as future trunks wasn t there in the future timeline because, well it was the future. So, vegeta most likely kept the idea that ssj was meant to be to one individual only, and like the legend said he would only appeared once every 1000 years. In the present, beeing aware that another ssj existed, made vegeta understand that it was not the case and that he would, most likely be able to become one as well
@@2707198727071987 Frieza and Cold showing up just to be defeated by Goku would definitely keep Vegeta motivated. He always felt Goku was inferior to him. He also got to see first hand that what he knew about super saiyan wasn’t sufficient. There was no reason for him to believe he COULDNT do it if that makes sense.
"That's who Vegeta is; he trains hard all the time!" I respectfully disagree completely. There was no sign Vegeta ever trained in his life (in the manga) prior to Future Trunks warning Vegeta and the others that they will die to the androids. This seems to be the trigger that gets him to train for the first time. When Vegeta was introducted in the Saiyan Saga he constantly talks about his birthright and how he was naturally born with a high power level, and that he deserved to win based purely on that. So one of the themes of that Goku vs Vegeta fight was about those born with privelege versus those who worked hard to achieve greatness. Someone who was given power versus someone who hard to earn it. When being compared with Kiwi, it's said Vegeta and Kiwi were always the same level. But Vegeta says he grew stronger by being out in the universe fighting and gaining power that way. However Kiwi's PL was the same as Vegeta's when he arrived on Earth. From that we can determine the only real power boost Vegeta got from experiencing real fights; was his fight on Earth. Dialogue also hints that saiyans only attacked in squads against planets they could easily conquer. If they strugged they'd just use Oozaru. Vegeta was presented as never needing to have ever tried before his fight with Goku. He didn't seem to know what to do when faced with a challenge other than go oozaru, which he'd seemingly not done for a while. Meaning he only ever faced easy opponents he knew he could beat in his base form. He still embodied this attitude on Namek where he would run from fights. Sometimes he'd miss-judge and think he could win easily, but that was his ego and he got his butt kicked for it. Other times when he could've won, like Goku and Vegeta vs Ginyu and jeice, he ran away. Then after Namek... during the 1-2 years between Frieza''s defeat on Namek and his arrival on Earth.... Vegeta has, again, shown zero signs of training. He's been chilling at Capsule Corp with Bulma. If Trunks didn't show up.... Goku would've had to defeat Frieza and his father. Would THIS be something that triggered Vegeta to train? I doubt it. Knowing Goku had achieved SSJ and defeated Frieza once wasn't enough to trigger Vegeta to train. Seeing it play out a second time probably wouldn't either. Meaning Vegeta would not have trained before the androids arrived. He didn't know they were coming and didn't know they would be his final death. He likely continued to chill at Capsule Corp and became closer to Bulma. This would explain why Future Bulma held him in higher regard than main timeline Bulma did. To be honest.... the fact main timeline Vegeta was triggered to train super-intensely, with the intention of going SSJ and surviving the androids.... I'm surprised Trunks was born at all in this timeline. Vegeta would be WAY too focus on his training to find time for Bulma.
Correct,Vegeta only started training after Future Trunks told them about the Androids. Vegeta is genetically far superior to Goku,the reason he gets behind is cause Goku has way more training,masters,forms and overall help
@@newhybrid101 yea we literally see goku train from childhood to npw whereas its believed vegeta was in his early thirties when he met goku? we didn't see anything like that until the scene with him and trunks or when he explained how he achieved ss
We have seen kid Vegeta having to spar against Saibamen. I understand you're saying that he didn't train as in, learn a martial arts style and actually learn how to fight. But definitely being battle hardened from childhood has to count as training. Sparring is training, as well as fighting for your life, which I'm sure he had to do constantly on planet Vegeta and as Frieza's underling for several decades. It's funny, I don't think anyone actually taught Vegeta any actual martial arts until maybe Whis? I wonder if all his time chamber training was literally just working out constantly, he sure as shit wasn't learning the basics of martial arts from Trunks.
@@BrianAwesome it could be entirely possible the z fighters faced and killed Gero in the future timeline and he was only told about the final battle against 17 and 18 since those are the 2 that killed everyone
@@Grombrindal no that's why, the only two people who could've told him more about the timeline most likely didn't want him to know how bad things were prior
The only reason Vegeta chased after Goku was because he couldn't stand that a low class warrior was that strong atleast strong enough to stand toe to toe with an Elite Saiyan. He already knew about Frieza being powerful. He chased after Goku because he witnessed Goku keep up with him and beat TGF
Why are the Artificial Humans weaker? Isn't that just a false statement made by Trunks because he didn't know that 17 only used half of his power against Gohan?
@@newhybrid101 17 says in the manga that he used less than half of his strength to beat Gohan before he killed himself off panel. They also beat Trunks with low effort. The first time one of them actually tried is when 18 flight Vegeta is the present. While changes can occur, Trunks is wrong about several things and doesn't even fully understand time travel himself.
Its not impossible they are weaker than the main timelime versions, but at the same time its impossible for them to gauge if they are intentionally holding back or not because nothing about their strength is natural.
I have to assume Jero powered them down to a weaker point to try and control them. The mind control was not improved. 17 and 18 had to wait longer to kill Jero away from the lab at some point. They didn't wake up the other androids, and probably didn't care to go back now finally free.
@@JarlQboyq That makes sense to me. 'The good doctor' toned them down originally, but he pulled them out in an emergency in the timeline we're following without having dialed their power down.
I imagine vegeta did have super sayan and he went in solo like we see him in the main timeline. I like to imagine his ego made him think he could take em and got himself killed. Because when freeza returned he didn't just charge in to face him. If he wasn't super sayan he might have set his ego aside and lived to fight another day. Would have been interesting if he and gohan trained together
if future vegeta died without going super saiyan, then its because 17 killed him quickly and efficiently, while vegeta expected the fight to go longer since they had no warning from a trunks and didnt know what to expect from two teen emo twins
If you think about it in Future Trunks his timeline Super Saiyan in general was cursed up till Future Trunks came back from the present timeline after cell was defeated. I mean Vegeta Super Saiyan was cursed but also two was future Gohan because I I don't think that he had as much time as Vegeta did as a Super Saiyan before he was killed and Future Trunks would have been killed as well even with Super Saiyan if Bulma had not created The Time Machine.
I don't think that anyone from db fans thinking that ssj was invulnerable, had power to wish anything, infinite energy, revive someone, warp reality, time and space like Super form from Sonic universe
@@Megaman-2407 It was more of an in-universe thing. The running theme had been that a super saiyan couldn't be defeated. Even the mightiest in the universe, Frieza, couldn't do so. That's what Vegeta was raised to believe, and why he basically had an existential crisis after losing to 18. It wasn't just that he lost - his entire world was shattered.
Good reasoning, I just think it would fit the overall depressing nature of the future timeline if Vegeta hadn't achieved SSJ. Original timeline - death of Goku kills Vegeta's motivation, and since Trunks had only just been born, he likely didn't feel any attachment to him or Bulma yet. So he would've given up fighting, and died six months later, long before he could even begin to settle into his new "domesticated" personality we see in the Buu arc. A perfect downer ending for a doomed character in a downer timeline. New timeline - receiving a warning of what COULD happen if he does nothing, along with Goku surviving, means Vegeta now has everything he needs to keep his head in the game. Three years later, 19 gets dusted and the rest is history. He still loses his motivation after Goku dies in the Cell Games, but this time Vegeta has been a father for longer and has a more mature mindset having being humbled by 18 and Cell. So in this case it makes sense he gets his motivation back, especially with Gohan representing a new goalpost. So again, I prefer to think future Vegeta doesn't achieve SSJ because that simply works better for his character. Much like Gohan, his potential is doomed in that timeline and that's the point. The circumstances were completely different for both of them. Besides we all know the real cursed SSJ Vegeta is the one in SaiyanScholar's what-if where he kills Frieza and dies when Namek explodes. =D
I think it's more that Vegeta from both timelines were close in power but don't think the androids in the main timeline were stronger. 17 told Gohan they were holding back all the time and they saw Trunks as amusement so never used their full power against him. I don't recall them ever mentioning their power to Trunks. Vegeta might be able to beat 18 at full power but not 17. The androids probly had to use more of their power to kill Vegeta than they did toying with Gohan and Trunks.
well in his first battle one v one against 18(while Goku was dealing with the heart virus) he got his butt kicked even with being in Super Saiyan form and would have died if not receiving a sensu from Krilin. just figured I'd give a refresher on anima version of main timeline. it wasn't until after he trained in the time chamber that he was strong enough to beat 17 and 18. so i think that is what happened in the future timeline is he didn't receive a sensu cause everyone else got put in the same position as that part of the main timeline including kirlin unlike in the main timeline where krilin froze and didn't fight and he was unharmed he was beat to a pulp like the rest.
I thought the ending of Future of Trunks explained Trunks was wrong w his assessment of android power bcuz they were toying w Gohan for fun, and he had not seen them close to their max... amd he was unconscious when they surprised Gohan w a glimpse of their full capacity....
He got angry too early to benefit amplified ssj. That's why he was weak years later, seeing how time heals all wounds. He wasn't exactly cursed, But lacking guidance.
Vegeta didn't train as hard because the random SSJ Trunks wasn't around. He probably stopped training as hard later on when Trunks was born and Goku died. With all this, Vegeta either had SSJ with a far lower base power, or he died on the brink of unlocking it with ample base to easily defeat the androids. I don't exactly recall why the androids were weaker since I thought only Cell used the fighters DNA to become stronger as well as activating 17 and 18 far later in the future opposed to his emergency in the main timeline where he was cornered. There's a chance Jero powered them down in the future to try and control them more easily but still failed.
For Toyotaro I just think it's the end of the fight so Vegeta already lost his form (or a fail of Toyotaro). Future Gohan was Super Saiyen and lost against Future Cyborgs, so Vegeta could have the same fate as well. For me Future Vegeta just before his death, is even weaker than Future Gohan just before his death. Otherwise, Gohan would not consider to have a chance against cyborgs if he was still weaker than Vegeta who lost against Androids. Same for Future Trunks, his first try in Super Saiyen failed against Androids, because he is on par with the level of Gohan, or maybe a little stronger, but it wasn't enough. Vegeta in the future timeline probably has a drop of motivation several months because Gokû's death, and after he trains again, obtains Super Saiyen later, but a weaker Super Saiyen than Present Vegeta because he had less training. Or maybe even cooler, Vegeta has been very affected by Gokû's death, begin to train again, but wasn't able to reach Super Saiyen. Androids come, they kill all earthlings, Vegeta is triggered and worried to lost, so he unlocks Super Saiyen directly in the fight, but it wasn't enough, and unlike Gokû in Namek, he loses and dies.
I always like to think Future Vegeta and Goku sparred a bit as SSJs before Goku died. Maybe they were slowly rivals instead of enemies, maybe becoming friends, but then Goku dies. That's why he says "Ka..karrot...no..." :( He lost the other pure blooded Saiyan, his aim, his goal, his rival...and potentially his newest friend.
Yeah, I do wonder if watching Goku pass to the heart virus in any way humbled or straightened out vegeta. May have weakened his resolve when he fought androids even, having already experienced that super saiyan isnt magic, on top of having no one to compete with. That's one somber timeline
Personally, I think that Future Vegeta didn't become Super Saiyan before the fight with the Androids... He became it DURING the fight in sheer frustration at losing against two machines. But since they actually ARE as powerful as their main timeline counterparts (at least at first) and Trunks only think otherwise because they never bothered to get serious with him, 17 and 18 still killed him with relative ease.
Yep this it's most likely they were just toying with him cause they take little to no damage from trunks in SSJ before he came back from the present timeline.
Everyone did get cooked in that timeline didnt they? I think it could be the case where Vegeta did unlock Super Saiyan in the future timeline but hadnt learned to tap into the form properly yet due to his motivation nerf, which would explain him not having it on the panel while being SSJ in the anime if they were the same continuity(which isnt the case)
What if Vegeta didn't train anywhere near as hard and Goku's sudden death was what pushed him over the edge into finally transforming into Super Saiyan in the future timeline? Given Vegeta's ego, its easy to see him as thinking there was no reason to train after getting Super Saiyan as it was the ultimate form in his eyes.
When trunks says “It seems like the androids are stronger in your timeline than mine.” That could be because vegeta was weaker in his timeline (not a super saiyan)
I think he could have become SS during the fight because of the need. However, it must have not been enough because Gohan couldn't beat 17 and 18 for years as a SS and Trunks didn't defeat them until after the time travel, and he destroyed Freeza and Cold within seconds. Therefore, Freeza was a joke, and Vegeta not know about the androids wouldn't have trained as hard as he did knowing about them. Moreover, even though the future 17 and 18 were weaker than main line, Vegeta got his ass handed to him by 18 without her trying much while he was prepared.
How could we trust that trunks said the mainline androids are stronger when he can’t sense their power levels. The only thing he could base it off of was his own fight with them which he got completely wrecked anyway. Even if they are weaker maybe it was over time due to not having any challenges who knows
I think vegeta was ssj in the future. I believe the androids weren't toying with him or piccolo at the beginning. So vegeta was killed fast. Trunks says from his point of view, the androids were stronger in the main timeline vs the future timeline. However, trunks never saw the androids fight at full power or "not hold back". Future gohan knocks out trunk and goes to challenge the androids and because he is now getting the upperhand. 17 says im not holding back anymore. And then gohan is killed. In a similar fashion, main timeline 18 says she wont hold back on vegeta anymore and when they fight, her and vegeta are near equal. But 18 has infinite stamina so vegeta losses. In my opinion, when the future androids furst arrived, piccolo and vegeta tried to destroy them. The future androids probably saw them as a threat and killed them. Thwn the rest were killed because they would never be a threat. Gohan hid, trained, and gave the androids enough of a challenge to be fun. Once gohan became a threat he was killed. So for vegeta to be aknowledged as a threat and not a "plaything", he must have been ssj...pushed the androids past maybe 70% of their power and had to be eradicated. Where as gohan at ssj wasnt making those feats until he trained harder and forced 17 to go full power to kill him.
I want to say that Gohan was a cursed Sayian too because he was the last outta the Z warriors. It'll just be able to catch a break because of the fact that android 17 had killed him because of its no telling who all fought in the future so all in all That's it so anyways, God bless everyone who comes across this comment 🪽✝️🔥🙌🏾
My theory is that in the manga He didn’t see Future Trucks as a super Saiyan so maybe he thought it was a just a legend so there was only one and that one is Goku so he probably didn’t think it was possible Then Gohan unlocked it so Gohan knew it was possible So tried to teach Trunks BUT HEY THATS JUST A THEORY
Just being an ssj isn't enough to take on the androids. Even if their versions in the future were actually weaker (Trunks could've gauged it completely wrong). Case and point Gohan and Trunks. Chances are he unlocked ssj just because Goku did but he didn't have the motivation to keep pushing even further just because of the android threat unlike the main timeline, nor was he remotely aware of the actual threat the androids possess.
Im going to disagreed that Future Trunks' timeline that Vegeta died as a Hero as Canon Vegeta's baby steps to be good was after F Trunks died. FT's Vegeta only saw the androids a stepping stone to prove that he is the strongest but he bite more that he can chew and died in the fighting to be the 1st to died. At least he is with Freeza in hell. Bulma omited some stuff as putting that Yamcha was a cheater.
@@Jerry-jo6dn His Big Ego can't being cleanse. To be a good guy took a death of a version of his son, sacrifice himself to save his actual son (but not before kill hundreds of people in the Budokai and liberating an eldrich abomination) and trying to convince the Earth to give energy for the Spirit Ball. Canon Vegeta needed that Huliation Conga to be a good person. As for the Cell Saga, he was a danger.
6:32 they weren't stronger it's heavily implied that the future androids were just fucking with trunks and never used full power on either him or gohan.
I don't think the Future Androids were that much weaker then the Present timeline androids. The Future Androids just missed one (two at most) upgrades because they killed Gero earlier. Also the Future Androids were much more ruthless. Wouldn't think twice about ganking Vegeta and Piccolo. Before deciding that is boring, and just toying with Future Gohan and Trunks later.
i'm not sure but to me it sounds like you didn't realize that Future 17 & 18 showed up when 19 & 20 did in the main timeline. this means Future Goku died much sooner than Main Timeline Goku
Vegeta definetily was not a super sayan on the true timeline ( The future timeline is the true one, since there was not outside interference ), if he was a super sayan, he would be able to easily defeat both androids, since the normal timeline had significantly stronger androids. He died a failure, and was in accordance to what was stated about the super sayan, "a sayan of good heart", to be fair, vegeta becoming a super sayan was simply the result of power creep, and if Akira truly gave a damn about lore and rules, he wouldnt have become one, since even if he had a change of heart, he was not pure of heart ( not even close lmao).
You Are Wrong The Reason Vegeta Was Traveling The Whole Universe After Namek's Explosion And Return To Earth Just To Ask Goku How He Became a Super Saiyan But Seeing Trunks Gone Ssj In Main Timeline Made Him Mad And He Droped That Act. Without a Doubt Future Vegeta Was Super Saiyan.But Because He Didn't Trained With That Much Intensity After Goku's Death Might Have Affected His Ability To Sustain It Longer It's Head Canon From Me.
Well you're wrong right off the bat. The androids from the future weren't weaker than their main timeline counterpart, they're literally the same thing. This fact alone makes this entire video a waste of time.
Did he even have SSJ in the first place is the real question. The super manga shows him fighting and dying to the androids in base. If he didn't have it, that would be a reasonable explanation for why trunks struggled to get it in the future
In the Show he had ssj because explained how he fought off that Asteroid and made him snap and he obtained the form. Idk abiut the anime,i havent read the manga. @jiero3253
3:30 "Akira Toriyama supervised these panels"
There's no way Toriyama, the man who invented AND THEN FORGOT ABOUT Super Saiyan 2, was paying attention to whether Future Vegeta should or should not have been a Super Saiyan.
Its the vegeta hate he has
It's true that he wasn't much of a fan of Vegeta, but he also didn't forget what SSJ2 was. He confused the levels because of the 4 grades of SSJ1.
I though a lot about this one too, and my conclusion was that vegeta did not become a ssj in the future timeline, for one reason and one reason only. He didn t know it was possible. What changed everything for main timeline vegeta is that by seeing another ssj, he understood that ssj was not a one time event every 1000 years, it became clear that you didn t have to be special or a legend to become one. It was an imense realization. As oppose to the one in the future where the only ssj was Goku. Vegeta s conclusion would be that you would need to be like goku to become one and so he never trained with that as a goal.
This makes no sense. Just seeing it once already tells him it's possible.
A second super saiyan doesn't change that, it just causes further humiliation from the reality of being that far behind.
Have you even seen Dragon ball?. He said a couple of times that he not goku is the one from the royal bloodline that should be able to achieve the transformation. " if kakarot did it, I can do it "
Future vegeta was actually in super saiyan form when android 17 killed him. In the history of trunks TV special as well as the anime when Trunks recalls what happen to the Z fighters during his conversation with Perfect form Cell. Look it up it's there 👍🏼.
Also one can assume future Vegeta saw Goku as a super saiyan again ( not only on dying namek when he was revived by the dragonballs) when Frieza and King Cold came to earth. In that timeline Goku used instant transmission to kill frieza and his father
@@samanthasmith7488 the discussion here is about the manga. In the anime and the special tv there is no need to guess as vegeta does appear as a ssj in both versions.
About the number of times vegeta saw goku it was always most likely more than one,that is not what i said, I said that he only saw 1 super saiyan, as future trunks wasn t there in the future timeline because, well it was the future. So, vegeta most likely kept the idea that ssj was meant to be to one individual only, and like the legend said he would only appeared once every 1000 years. In the present, beeing aware that another ssj existed, made vegeta understand that it was not the case and that he would, most likely be able to become one as well
@@2707198727071987
Frieza and Cold showing up just to be defeated by Goku would definitely keep Vegeta motivated. He always felt Goku was inferior to him.
He also got to see first hand that what he knew about super saiyan wasn’t sufficient. There was no reason for him to believe he COULDNT do it if that makes sense.
"That's who Vegeta is; he trains hard all the time!"
I respectfully disagree completely.
There was no sign Vegeta ever trained in his life (in the manga) prior to Future Trunks warning Vegeta and the others that they will die to the androids. This seems to be the trigger that gets him to train for the first time.
When Vegeta was introducted in the Saiyan Saga he constantly talks about his birthright and how he was naturally born with a high power level, and that he deserved to win based purely on that. So one of the themes of that Goku vs Vegeta fight was about those born with privelege versus those who worked hard to achieve greatness. Someone who was given power versus someone who hard to earn it.
When being compared with Kiwi, it's said Vegeta and Kiwi were always the same level. But Vegeta says he grew stronger by being out in the universe fighting and gaining power that way. However Kiwi's PL was the same as Vegeta's when he arrived on Earth. From that we can determine the only real power boost Vegeta got from experiencing real fights; was his fight on Earth. Dialogue also hints that saiyans only attacked in squads against planets they could easily conquer. If they strugged they'd just use Oozaru.
Vegeta was presented as never needing to have ever tried before his fight with Goku. He didn't seem to know what to do when faced with a challenge other than go oozaru, which he'd seemingly not done for a while. Meaning he only ever faced easy opponents he knew he could beat in his base form. He still embodied this attitude on Namek where he would run from fights. Sometimes he'd miss-judge and think he could win easily, but that was his ego and he got his butt kicked for it. Other times when he could've won, like Goku and Vegeta vs Ginyu and jeice, he ran away.
Then after Namek... during the 1-2 years between Frieza''s defeat on Namek and his arrival on Earth.... Vegeta has, again, shown zero signs of training. He's been chilling at Capsule Corp with Bulma. If Trunks didn't show up.... Goku would've had to defeat Frieza and his father. Would THIS be something that triggered Vegeta to train? I doubt it. Knowing Goku had achieved SSJ and defeated Frieza once wasn't enough to trigger Vegeta to train. Seeing it play out a second time probably wouldn't either.
Meaning Vegeta would not have trained before the androids arrived. He didn't know they were coming and didn't know they would be his final death. He likely continued to chill at Capsule Corp and became closer to Bulma. This would explain why Future Bulma held him in higher regard than main timeline Bulma did.
To be honest.... the fact main timeline Vegeta was triggered to train super-intensely, with the intention of going SSJ and surviving the androids.... I'm surprised Trunks was born at all in this timeline. Vegeta would be WAY too focus on his training to find time for Bulma.
Correct,Vegeta only started training after Future Trunks told them about the Androids.
Vegeta is genetically far superior to Goku,the reason he gets behind is cause Goku has way more training,masters,forms and overall help
@@newhybrid101 yea we literally see goku train from childhood to npw whereas its believed vegeta was in his early thirties when he met goku? we didn't see anything like that until the scene with him and trunks or when he explained how he achieved ss
We have seen kid Vegeta having to spar against Saibamen. I understand you're saying that he didn't train as in, learn a martial arts style and actually learn how to fight. But definitely being battle hardened from childhood has to count as training. Sparring is training, as well as fighting for your life, which I'm sure he had to do constantly on planet Vegeta and as Frieza's underling for several decades.
It's funny, I don't think anyone actually taught Vegeta any actual martial arts until maybe Whis? I wonder if all his time chamber training was literally just working out constantly, he sure as shit wasn't learning the basics of martial arts from Trunks.
You think vegeta would just sit and stare and let Goku walk around as the only SSJ?
We did see vegeta train he trained his whole life even as a kid stop the cap
I think we have to consider that maybe Trunks just doesn't know what he's talking about.
Thhannkk yyouu ! 🙏
@@BrianAwesome it could be entirely possible the z fighters faced and killed Gero in the future timeline and he was only told about the final battle against 17 and 18 since those are the 2 that killed everyone
why is future gohan buu saga age but in buu saga trunks in a kid is future timeline waaay ahead and they only got to ssj?
Everyone would have been too dead to tell him about 19 and 20. 17 and 18 on the other hand...
@@Grombrindal no that's why, the only two people who could've told him more about the timeline most likely didn't want him to know how bad things were prior
Great video
Watched before you took it down the 1st time
The only reason Vegeta chased after Goku was because he couldn't stand that a low class warrior was that strong atleast strong enough to stand toe to toe with an Elite Saiyan.
He already knew about Frieza being powerful. He chased after Goku because he witnessed Goku keep up with him and beat TGF
Definitely a great video I seen the first upload & hopefully TH-cam doesn't take it down 2024/12/8
Why are the Artificial Humans weaker? Isn't that just a false statement made by Trunks because he didn't know that 17 only used half of his power against Gohan?
No.
Trunks faced them afterwards himself.
Nothing,changes can occur because of time travel
@@newhybrid101 17 says in the manga that he used less than half of his strength to beat Gohan before he killed himself off panel. They also beat Trunks with low effort. The first time one of them actually tried is when 18 flight Vegeta is the present. While changes can occur, Trunks is wrong about several things and doesn't even fully understand time travel himself.
Its not impossible they are weaker than the main timelime versions, but at the same time its impossible for them to gauge if they are intentionally holding back or not because nothing about their strength is natural.
I have to assume Jero powered them down to a weaker point to try and control them. The mind control was not improved. 17 and 18 had to wait longer to kill Jero away from the lab at some point. They didn't wake up the other androids, and probably didn't care to go back now finally free.
@@JarlQboyq That makes sense to me. 'The good doctor' toned them down originally, but he pulled them out in an emergency in the timeline we're following without having dialed their power down.
I imagine vegeta did have super sayan and he went in solo like we see him in the main timeline. I like to imagine his ego made him think he could take em and got himself killed. Because when freeza returned he didn't just charge in to face him. If he wasn't super sayan he might have set his ego aside and lived to fight another day. Would have been interesting if he and gohan trained together
if future vegeta died without going super saiyan, then its because 17 killed him quickly and efficiently, while vegeta expected the fight to go longer since they had no warning from a trunks and didnt know what to expect from two teen emo twins
he may be cursed but at least he got bulma
Bulma was mid in z until the buu saga and in og db Dbz made Bulma worse it’s the buu saga her looks came back
If you think about it in Future Trunks his timeline Super Saiyan in general was cursed up till Future Trunks came back from the present timeline after cell was defeated.
I mean Vegeta Super Saiyan was cursed but also two was future Gohan because I I don't think that he had as much time as Vegeta did as a Super Saiyan before he was killed and Future Trunks would have been killed as well even with Super Saiyan if Bulma had not created The Time Machine.
The android arc proved Super Saiyans are not invincible
I don't think that anyone from db fans thinking that ssj was invulnerable, had power to wish anything, infinite energy, revive someone, warp reality, time and space like Super form from Sonic universe
@@JoshuaLowe-ci3woHow did anyone think that? Even in Frieza arc Frieza could damage SSJ goku
@@Megaman-2407 It was more of an in-universe thing. The running theme had been that a super saiyan couldn't be defeated. Even the mightiest in the universe, Frieza, couldn't do so. That's what Vegeta was raised to believe, and why he basically had an existential crisis after losing to 18. It wasn't just that he lost - his entire world was shattered.
Good reasoning, I just think it would fit the overall depressing nature of the future timeline if Vegeta hadn't achieved SSJ.
Original timeline - death of Goku kills Vegeta's motivation, and since Trunks had only just been born, he likely didn't feel any attachment to him or Bulma yet. So he would've given up fighting, and died six months later, long before he could even begin to settle into his new "domesticated" personality we see in the Buu arc. A perfect downer ending for a doomed character in a downer timeline.
New timeline - receiving a warning of what COULD happen if he does nothing, along with Goku surviving, means Vegeta now has everything he needs to keep his head in the game. Three years later, 19 gets dusted and the rest is history. He still loses his motivation after Goku dies in the Cell Games, but this time Vegeta has been a father for longer and has a more mature mindset having being humbled by 18 and Cell. So in this case it makes sense he gets his motivation back, especially with Gohan representing a new goalpost.
So again, I prefer to think future Vegeta doesn't achieve SSJ because that simply works better for his character. Much like Gohan, his potential is doomed in that timeline and that's the point. The circumstances were completely different for both of them.
Besides we all know the real cursed SSJ Vegeta is the one in SaiyanScholar's what-if where he kills Frieza and dies when Namek explodes. =D
I think it's more that Vegeta from both timelines were close in power but don't think the androids in the main timeline were stronger. 17 told Gohan they were holding back all the time and they saw Trunks as amusement so never used their full power against him. I don't recall them ever mentioning their power to Trunks. Vegeta might be able to beat 18 at full power but not 17. The androids probly had to use more of their power to kill Vegeta than they did toying with Gohan and Trunks.
well in his first battle one v one against 18(while Goku was dealing with the heart virus) he got his butt kicked even with being in Super Saiyan form and would have died if not receiving a sensu from Krilin.
just figured I'd give a refresher on anima version of main timeline.
it wasn't until after he trained in the time chamber that he was strong enough to beat 17 and 18. so i think that is what happened in the future timeline is he didn't receive a sensu cause everyone else got put in the same position as that part of the main timeline including kirlin unlike in the main timeline where krilin froze and didn't fight and he was unharmed he was beat to a pulp like the rest.
Future Vegeta was cooked 😢
Dude it would of been so cool seeing Ssj Vegeta and Future Gohan training and then going at it with the Androids
I thought the ending of Future of Trunks explained Trunks was wrong w his assessment of android power bcuz they were toying w Gohan for fun, and he had not seen them close to their max... amd he was unconscious when they surprised Gohan w a glimpse of their full capacity....
If you are going by this logic, Future Gohan was another cursed Super Saiyan
Yeah. Gohan's life in that timeline is from beginning to end, very dramatic and tragic. He never got to experience true peace and happiness.
He got angry too early to benefit amplified ssj. That's why he was weak years later, seeing how time heals all wounds. He wasn't exactly cursed, But lacking guidance.
@JarlQboyq they all was weak no forewarning, no hyperbolic chamber ssj was it no beyond goku never got to fight.
Vegeta didn't train as hard because the random SSJ Trunks wasn't around. He probably stopped training as hard later on when Trunks was born and Goku died. With all this, Vegeta either had SSJ with a far lower base power, or he died on the brink of unlocking it with ample base to easily defeat the androids. I don't exactly recall why the androids were weaker since I thought only Cell used the fighters DNA to become stronger as well as activating 17 and 18 far later in the future opposed to his emergency in the main timeline where he was cornered. There's a chance Jero powered them down in the future to try and control them more easily but still failed.
For Toyotaro I just think it's the end of the fight so Vegeta already lost his form (or a fail of Toyotaro).
Future Gohan was Super Saiyen and lost against Future Cyborgs, so Vegeta could have the same fate as well. For me Future Vegeta just before his death, is even weaker than Future Gohan just before his death. Otherwise, Gohan would not consider to have a chance against cyborgs if he was still weaker than Vegeta who lost against Androids. Same for Future Trunks, his first try in Super Saiyen failed against Androids, because he is on par with the level of Gohan, or maybe a little stronger, but it wasn't enough.
Vegeta in the future timeline probably has a drop of motivation several months because Gokû's death, and after he trains again, obtains Super Saiyen later, but a weaker Super Saiyen than Present Vegeta because he had less training. Or maybe even cooler, Vegeta has been very affected by Gokû's death, begin to train again, but wasn't able to reach Super Saiyen. Androids come, they kill all earthlings, Vegeta is triggered and worried to lost, so he unlocks Super Saiyen directly in the fight, but it wasn't enough, and unlike Gokû in Namek, he loses and dies.
I always like to think Future Vegeta and Goku sparred a bit as SSJs before Goku died. Maybe they were slowly rivals instead of enemies, maybe becoming friends, but then Goku dies. That's why he says "Ka..karrot...no..." :( He lost the other pure blooded Saiyan, his aim, his goal, his rival...and potentially his newest friend.
Yeah, I do wonder if watching Goku pass to the heart virus in any way humbled or straightened out vegeta. May have weakened his resolve when he fought androids even, having already experienced that super saiyan isnt magic, on top of having no one to compete with. That's one somber timeline
Personally, I think that Future Vegeta didn't become Super Saiyan before the fight with the Androids... He became it DURING the fight in sheer frustration at losing against two machines.
But since they actually ARE as powerful as their main timeline counterparts (at least at first) and Trunks only think otherwise because they never bothered to get serious with him, 17 and 18 still killed him with relative ease.
Yep this it's most likely they were just toying with him cause they take little to no damage from trunks in SSJ before he came back from the present timeline.
I think the point is that it doesnt actually matter because he would've been killed anyway. The main timeline made that clear.
This may sound very bland, but man, you're my fav DBZ guy now.
Appreciate the support man!
Everyone did get cooked in that timeline didnt they?
I think it could be the case where Vegeta did unlock Super Saiyan in the future timeline but hadnt learned to tap into the form properly yet due to his motivation nerf, which would explain him not having it on the panel while being SSJ in the anime if they were the same continuity(which isnt the case)
What if Vegeta didn't train anywhere near as hard and Goku's sudden death was what pushed him over the edge into finally transforming into Super Saiyan in the future timeline?
Given Vegeta's ego, its easy to see him as thinking there was no reason to train after getting Super Saiyan as it was the ultimate form in his eyes.
When trunks says “It seems like the androids are stronger in your timeline than mine.”
That could be because vegeta was weaker in his timeline (not a super saiyan)
I'm here 22 minutes in lol. (I know it's a reupload though.)
I think he could have become SS during the fight because of the need. However, it must have not been enough because Gohan couldn't beat 17 and 18 for years as a SS and Trunks didn't defeat them until after the time travel, and he destroyed Freeza and Cold within seconds. Therefore, Freeza was a joke, and Vegeta not know about the androids wouldn't have trained as hard as he did knowing about them. Moreover, even though the future 17 and 18 were weaker than main line, Vegeta got his ass handed to him by 18 without her trying much while he was prepared.
How could we trust that trunks said the mainline androids are stronger when he can’t sense their power levels. The only thing he could base it off of was his own fight with them which he got completely wrecked anyway. Even if they are weaker maybe it was over time due to not having any challenges who knows
I think vegeta was ssj in the future. I believe the androids weren't toying with him or piccolo at the beginning. So vegeta was killed fast.
Trunks says from his point of view, the androids were stronger in the main timeline vs the future timeline. However, trunks never saw the androids fight at full power or "not hold back".
Future gohan knocks out trunk and goes to challenge the androids and because he is now getting the upperhand. 17 says im not holding back anymore. And then gohan is killed.
In a similar fashion, main timeline 18 says she wont hold back on vegeta anymore and when they fight, her and vegeta are near equal. But 18 has infinite stamina so vegeta losses.
In my opinion, when the future androids furst arrived, piccolo and vegeta tried to destroy them. The future androids probably saw them as a threat and killed them. Thwn the rest were killed because they would never be a threat. Gohan hid, trained, and gave the androids enough of a challenge to be fun. Once gohan became a threat he was killed.
So for vegeta to be aknowledged as a threat and not a "plaything", he must have been ssj...pushed the androids past maybe 70% of their power and had to be eradicated. Where as gohan at ssj wasnt making those feats until he trained harder and forced 17 to go full power to kill him.
Vegeta's had inferiority complex
He had both superiority and inferiority complex
simple answer is the future androids were holding back toying with both gohan and trunks cause they was bored
17 says this to gohan
I want to say that Gohan was a cursed Sayian too because he was the last outta the Z warriors. It'll just be able to catch a break because of the fact that android 17 had killed him because of its no telling who all fought in the future so all in all
That's it so anyways, God bless everyone who comes across this comment 🪽✝️🔥🙌🏾
Maybe Vegeta underestimated the androids because he couldn’t sense there power levels & the androids got really lucky.
My theory is that in the manga He didn’t see Future Trucks as a super Saiyan so maybe he thought it was a just a legend so there was only one and that one is Goku so he probably didn’t think it was possible
Then Gohan unlocked it so Gohan knew it was possible
So tried to teach Trunks
BUT HEY THATS JUST A THEORY
Vegeta's one & only weakness was his ego, he might've been on par with Goku if he wasn't so full of himself
Just being an ssj isn't enough to take on the androids. Even if their versions in the future were actually weaker (Trunks could've gauged it completely wrong). Case and point Gohan and Trunks.
Chances are he unlocked ssj just because Goku did but he didn't have the motivation to keep pushing even further just because of the android threat unlike the main timeline, nor was he remotely aware of the actual threat the androids possess.
Vegeta can't stop taking Ls no matter the timeline.
Vegeta is cursed because he is constantly out done by Goku.
Im going to disagreed that Future Trunks' timeline that Vegeta died as a Hero as Canon Vegeta's baby steps to be good was after F Trunks died. FT's Vegeta only saw the androids a stepping stone to prove that he is the strongest but he bite more that he can chew and died in the fighting to be the 1st to died. At least he is with Freeza in hell. Bulma omited some stuff as putting that Yamcha was a cheater.
Future Vegeta probably had his soul cleansed unless his ego wouldn’t allow him.
@@Jerry-jo6dn His Big Ego can't being cleanse. To be a good guy took a death of a version of his son, sacrifice himself to save his actual son (but not before kill hundreds of people in the Budokai and liberating an eldrich abomination) and trying to convince the Earth to give energy for the Spirit Ball. Canon Vegeta needed that Huliation Conga to be a good person. As for the Cell Saga, he was a danger.
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6:32 they weren't stronger it's heavily implied that the future androids were just fucking with trunks and never used full power on either him or gohan.
I don't think the Future Androids were that much weaker then the Present timeline androids. The Future Androids just missed one (two at most) upgrades because they killed Gero earlier.
Also the Future Androids were much more ruthless. Wouldn't think twice about ganking Vegeta and Piccolo. Before deciding that is boring, and just toying with Future Gohan and Trunks later.
Someone count how many times he said super saiyan
i'm not sure but to me it sounds like you didn't realize that Future 17 & 18 showed up when 19 & 20 did in the main timeline. this means Future Goku died much sooner than Main Timeline Goku
bro the type to call super saiyan a “killer app.” UGHHH
Vegeta definetily was not a super sayan on the true timeline ( The future timeline is the true one, since there was not outside interference ), if he was a super sayan, he would be able to easily defeat both androids, since the normal timeline had significantly stronger androids.
He died a failure, and was in accordance to what was stated about the super sayan, "a sayan of good heart", to be fair, vegeta becoming a super sayan was simply the result of power creep, and if Akira truly gave a damn about lore and rules, he wouldnt have become one, since even if he had a change of heart, he was not pure of heart ( not even close lmao).
Dragon Ball is about Goku, not Vegeta. Super Saiyan or not, he's still Vegeta.
the real question is was piccolo a super namekian in the future timeline or nah?
He definitely fused with Nail in the future timeline as well, so yeah.
@@vahlen5281 nah that doesn't count, if anything that is a small power up compared to when him and kami merge together
@@stephenchambers7972 Official sources consider him a Super Namekian after fusing with Nail, and that's all that matters.
You Are Wrong The Reason Vegeta Was Traveling The Whole Universe After Namek's Explosion And Return To Earth Just To Ask Goku How He Became a Super Saiyan But Seeing Trunks Gone Ssj In Main Timeline Made Him Mad And He Droped That Act. Without a Doubt Future Vegeta Was Super Saiyan.But Because He Didn't Trained With That Much Intensity After Goku's Death Might Have Affected His Ability To Sustain It Longer It's Head Canon From Me.
Anyone know wth this guy was saying I just heard mumbling😐
Please don’t go all anime girl on us
i don't remember where i saw it but i remember 18 and 17 killing SSJ vegeta in a fight crushing his throat
First
Well you're wrong right off the bat.
The androids from the future weren't weaker than their main timeline counterpart, they're literally the same thing. This fact alone makes this entire video a waste of time.
Did he even have SSJ in the first place is the real question. The super manga shows him fighting and dying to the androids in base.
If he didn't have it, that would be a reasonable explanation for why trunks struggled to get it in the future
@@jiero3253 you mean ssj
@@DamienRitfeld damn let me edit it, been so used to saying Vegeta didn't have the god form till the broly movie
In the Kakarot DLC he had it.
In the Show he had ssj because explained how he fought off that Asteroid and made him snap and he obtained the form.
Idk abiut the anime,i havent read the manga. @jiero3253
@@StayInYourPlaceIt was filler. Vegeta achieves SSJ in the gravity room.