It's an interesting perspective, but here's a different one: A more even power delivery results in better traction, as it is the jolts that break the tire into a slip, a proof point is that hard enduro is dominated by 2-strokes. You don't have V4, because they're too heavy and complex for this task. In off-road a slip ratio is preferred to pure static friction, that's why ABS sucks on loose terrain. So why the issue? An electric drive has very little inertia, so when the wheel loses traction it gains RPMs fast, opposed to lugging an ICE bike with the wheel slipping a little. What's needed is adequate software that precisely controls the wheel RPM and prevents these scenarios. That's just one of the many solutions we're working on here at FluxMoto.
Awesome video, clearest explanation of gas engine power delivery ever. But as a previous comment pointed out, electric bikes have the potential to “out-traction “ the best gas engines just as they have in the automotive world once sensors and mostly software matures.
Nothing but respect for the amount of consideration you put into this. I think you will find the problem is the amount of weight at the crank shaft. The inertia or the lack of inertia at the crank shaft is the solution to this problem. Thanks for your video, It provided a lot of fuel for thought.
ABS is computer controlled.....so is traction control....just sayin' ......you can have completely controllable traction control that could emulate any power pulse you like or even better, just legit slip management...sorry but this is just a silly argument....PS ...EV's are the quickest cars in the world entirely because of their ability to modulate traction without drivetrain slop.
I agree... Deep down I love gas engines... but if I am going to be honest with myself, electric motors are more constant than any gas engine and can be customized to deliver any sort of throttle response and power delivery you can conceive so long as you have the sensors, computer, and software available and the skill to apply it. I am a technician of almost 30 years.
@ascott6804 No. I've never even tried an Ebike. But I don't enter a debate about electric vehicles like its political. I have a broad appreciation for machines in general. When I became a locomotive tech I was amazed by the engine... 30,000 pounds, 4000 HP turbo 2 stroke beasts! But also keep in mind all it does is power a generator... that powers electric motors either AC or DC depending on the unit. All the axles on a locomotive are electric. By switching series and parallel circuits to the motors you can get over the speed limitations that used to be a thing because of the magnetic field fighting itself. You can engine brake still by having resistors switched in to the electric motors and this reduces need for brake pad replacement so often and reduces failure by being applied simultaneously. An electric vehicle doesnt fit every situation and in some cases there is no support for it. But a little 100 pound bike with the power of a nicely tricked and tuned 125cc that can do 300 miles on a charge sounds like a blast to me. That would get me to work and back for a couple days or enjoy a lot of trails. Now that I am older... being quiet and strealthy keeps my interests too. I'm not a prepper... but damn it looks like shit is going downhill. A solar panel and ebike is going to go farther than a gas bike if SHTF...
@ascott6804 if that idea does not intrigue you, then you are not an enthusiast. Just like I say to those guys that think the only motorcycle is a Harley. They are not bikers, they are followers. I am all about the machines and the capability. I haven't been biased since I came to the conclusion that I was wrong about carbs vs fuel injection. Turns out fuel injection is far superior most of the time.
The comparison with ABS is brilliant. You find traction lose traction find traction over and over again. During the two-stroke era in motogp, Honda ran a four-cylinder engine where the cylinders fired tightly if I remember correctly 178° to 180° between. So instead of getting a smooth input with power, there was a longer input. This was so that the wheel would find traction between the pulses. Same as with a pedal bike. Good traction and the electric bike/car is the best.
I race cross country with an ICE YZ and also ride an electric bike. The advantage of a clutch is obvious, but at the same time it doesn't seem like this guy has any actual experience on electric because power mapping that can be switched on the fly and traction control make electric incredibly well adept at finding and keeping traction. Trying to inellectualize without mentioning or considering basic technology is flat out garbage nonsense.
Gunna be alot of eMX riders chasing the golden rear end geometry / shock set-up to make up for this disadvantage , however there are 2 advantages ... 1 : the bike remains the same weight bias at all times . 2 : the rear tyre will sound underinflated as the traction level goes up ( cause it's electric and quiet ) Bonus 3 : there's a thing called " exponential " usually adjustable for the throttle , on mine at least . Not selling me ICE MXers any time soon though ...
I'm not sure I buy your argument that fewer cylinders = better off-road. Unless you are lugging the engine at super low RPM, the torque pulses are averaged out by the chain slack and engine flywheel so the pulses don't reach the tire. The reason people don't use multi-cylinder bikes offroad is more cylinders = heavier. Agreed electric bikes can struggle offroad, mainly because fine torque control on an electric bike is more difficult to achieve without a clutch. Zero Motorcycles has a patent for a "virtual clutch" where the clutch lever signal tells the motor controller to reduce torque. But this concept hasn't reached production yet.
Wow I learned something. Seems like an easy fix though if the problem were ever brought into $harp focus for the industry to address. What with amazing electronics these days . In fact set the onboard computer to give you any set of power pulses you want
Maybe try a top tier dirt bike (electric) ,not all apples taste the same! Is your bike computer programmable (esc) If so try changing your parameters /then retest
![KTM 1290 Super Duke RR Hooligan bike | riding with gonzales | MT09 | engine sound only | [4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/76IT2rz0A5Q/mqdefault.jpg)
It's an interesting perspective, but here's a different one:
A more even power delivery results in better traction, as it is the jolts that break the tire into a slip, a proof point is that hard enduro is dominated by 2-strokes. You don't have V4, because they're too heavy and complex for this task. In off-road a slip ratio is preferred to pure static friction, that's why ABS sucks on loose terrain.
So why the issue?
An electric drive has very little inertia, so when the wheel loses traction it gains RPMs fast, opposed to lugging an ICE bike with the wheel slipping a little. What's needed is adequate software that precisely controls the wheel RPM and prevents these scenarios. That's just one of the many solutions we're working on here at FluxMoto.
Dude! Great video! Power delivery is everything in low traction situations.
Awesome video, clearest explanation of gas engine power delivery ever. But as a previous comment pointed out, electric bikes have the potential to “out-traction “ the best gas engines just as they have in the automotive world once sensors and mostly software matures.
Agreed. If they can figure out better software, then they'll be unstoppable, except for the range issue.
Nothing but respect for the amount of consideration you put into this. I think you will find the problem is the amount of weight at the crank shaft. The inertia or the lack of inertia at the crank shaft is the solution to this problem. Thanks for your video, It provided a lot of fuel for thought.
ABS is computer controlled.....so is traction control....just sayin' ......you can have completely controllable traction control that could emulate any power pulse you like or even better, just legit slip management...sorry but this is just a silly argument....PS ...EV's are the quickest cars in the world entirely because of their ability to modulate traction without drivetrain slop.
I agree... Deep down I love gas engines... but if I am going to be honest with myself, electric motors are more constant than any gas engine and can be customized to deliver any sort of throttle response and power delivery you can conceive so long as you have the sensors, computer, and software available and the skill to apply it. I am a technician of almost 30 years.
...so y'all ride one??
@ascott6804 No. I've never even tried an Ebike. But I don't enter a debate about electric vehicles like its political. I have a broad appreciation for machines in general. When I became a locomotive tech I was amazed by the engine... 30,000 pounds, 4000 HP turbo 2 stroke beasts! But also keep in mind all it does is power a generator... that powers electric motors either AC or DC depending on the unit. All the axles on a locomotive are electric. By switching series and parallel circuits to the motors you can get over the speed limitations that used to be a thing because of the magnetic field fighting itself. You can engine brake still by having resistors switched in to the electric motors and this reduces need for brake pad replacement so often and reduces failure by being applied simultaneously. An electric vehicle doesnt fit every situation and in some cases there is no support for it. But a little 100 pound bike with the power of a nicely tricked and tuned 125cc that can do 300 miles on a charge sounds like a blast to me. That would get me to work and back for a couple days or enjoy a lot of trails. Now that I am older... being quiet and strealthy keeps my interests too. I'm not a prepper... but damn it looks like shit is going downhill. A solar panel and ebike is going to go farther than a gas bike if SHTF...
@ThatWinterRider ...good luck with that.
@ascott6804 if that idea does not intrigue you, then you are not an enthusiast. Just like I say to those guys that think the only motorcycle is a Harley. They are not bikers, they are followers. I am all about the machines and the capability. I haven't been biased since I came to the conclusion that I was wrong about carbs vs fuel injection. Turns out fuel injection is far superior most of the time.
Informative. This guy know what he is talking about
The comparison with ABS is brilliant. You find traction lose traction find traction over and over again. During the two-stroke era in motogp, Honda ran a four-cylinder engine where the cylinders fired tightly if I remember correctly 178° to 180° between. So instead of getting a smooth input with power, there was a longer input. This was so that the wheel would find traction between the pulses. Same as with a pedal bike. Good traction and the electric bike/car is the best.
I don't even ride dirt bikes anymore, but still found this to be really interesting. I'll have to try electric, just to see what it's all about.
...over torque is a factor.
I race cross country with an ICE YZ and also ride an electric bike. The advantage of a clutch is obvious, but at the same time it doesn't seem like this guy has any actual experience on electric because power mapping that can be switched on the fly and traction control make electric incredibly well adept at finding and keeping traction. Trying to inellectualize without mentioning or considering basic technology is flat out garbage nonsense.
Gunna be alot of eMX riders chasing the golden rear end geometry / shock set-up to make up for this disadvantage , however there are 2 advantages ...
1 : the bike remains the same weight bias at all times .
2 : the rear tyre will sound underinflated as the traction level goes up ( cause it's electric and quiet )
Bonus 3 : there's a thing called " exponential " usually adjustable for the throttle , on mine at least .
Not selling me ICE MXers any time soon though ...
I'm not sure I buy your argument that fewer cylinders = better off-road. Unless you are lugging the engine at super low RPM, the torque pulses are averaged out by the chain slack and engine flywheel so the pulses don't reach the tire. The reason people don't use multi-cylinder bikes offroad is more cylinders = heavier. Agreed electric bikes can struggle offroad, mainly because fine torque control on an electric bike is more difficult to achieve without a clutch. Zero Motorcycles has a patent for a "virtual clutch" where the clutch lever signal tells the motor controller to reduce torque. But this concept hasn't reached production yet.
Someone will invent variable powerpulse for EV bikes.
Wow I learned something. Seems like an easy fix though if the problem were ever brought into $harp focus for the industry to address. What with amazing electronics these days . In fact set the onboard computer to give you any set of power pulses you want
...aint no gas in it!! Lol
th-cam.com/users/shorts8qrz_70tP7E?si=Tr3qpbxYAYlFsp13
Maybe try a top tier dirt bike (electric) ,not all apples taste the same!
Is your bike computer programmable (esc)
If so try changing your parameters /then retest