David, thank you so much for bringing Ahmed Adnan Saygun to light. As you point out wonderfully he deserves to be known much better. Yes he can be sometimes difficult in his orchestral works, especially symphonies but he has a lot to discover and the orchestras should pay attention to him more in programming rather than investing in some obscure and unnecessary adventures.
George Rochberg left us in 2005. I had the privilege to sit a few rows behind him in about 2002 as one of his string quartets was performed. The joy on his face is etched in my memory. Thanks for bringing this music to our attention. We all have hurdles to get over to expand our listening and it is a wonderful thing when you help us out.
Sessions's works are amazing. I started listening to his symphonies and also his chamber music after your talk and I got instantly hooked on his music. Thank you!
The Saygun was new to me. What a great find. Looking forward to your in-depth talk about him. So appreciate you sharing your extensive knowledge with us!!!
Saygun!!!! I've been waiting for him to show up! I mainly know him for his fabulous concertos (especially his piano concertos- some of my favorite piano concertos of the 20th century) - but his symphonic works deserve more acclaim as well.
Great talk, Dave. Can't wait for Allan Pettersson, Matthijs Vermeulen, the Stefan Wolpe Symphony, and possibly the Webern Symphony? And perhaps the wacky stylistic soup that is the Schnittke FIrst Symphony....
Another fine talk, I am looking forward to more trios of gnarly symphonists. I am old enough to remember the critical reception of the premiere and recording of Rochberg's Violin Concerto; the musical establishment reacted with outrage, Rochberg was seen as an apostate; it was as if Sam Harris announced that he had been baptised as a born again Christian. I remember one review using the expression 'sweaty romanticism' to describe the Concerto.
Well, I did it -- listen to all three back-to-back-to-back. And I emerged without a scratch. Now, it wasn't my first go-round with any of the three composers, so I had an idea what to expect. I'm afraid that Sessions's music almost always strikes me as emotionally cramped, and this symphony was no exception after the fun Burleske. I applaud Rochberg for his absolutely total commitment to his expressive goals, and for keeping me engaged despite the forbidding idiom. The Saygun is fabulous -- what an exotic sound world and wealth of invention! As for more tough symphonies, bring 'em on, Brother Dave! In the meantime, I think I'll put on some nice Perry Como...
“Write a music you love very much. If you are completely convinced, others will be convinced, and will eventually come to love it, too.” -Roger Sessions So good to see Sessions is having a comeback. 🤭 That was a great performance, Dave. Thank you so much for starting this exciting new series. I can only subscribe to what previous commenters suggested here: please include Pettersson and Gerhard. Certainly some of the most neglected symphonies of the 20th century. I just received Pettersson’s 7th in the mail the other day and from the ones I’ve heard so far, it’s my favourite.
Talking (Jed Distler)about Pettersson (big box nla), one can add Rued Langgaard (boxed up), Vagn Holmboe (boxed up) and the still-living Per Norgard, and Aulis Sallinen (Sallinen in a nice big CPO box). Great talk Dave.
Attractive idea to give "tough" symphonists their deserved exposure. Of the composers in this first video, Saygun is definitely the more interesting to me. An incredible orchestrator and accomplished composer who excelled in symphonies and concertos, mostly. He also wrote string quartets which I don't know yet, but I believe that they must contain great music as well. Rochberg is new to these ears. The excerpt you played caught my attention, it's wild, astringent and gripping, and the rhythm makes this symphony much more approachable and engaging, something that doesn't happen with other dodecaphonic/serialist stuff by other composers. Sessions is the toughest to me, I've heard all his symphonies and only Nos. 1-3 appeal to my tastes. The next ones leave me cold. Thanks for starting this series. Looking forward to watching the next videos.
That Rochburg disc including Symphony No. 2 is a real stunner. I’m generally not a fan of serialism, but I do love this work without question or reservation. It would be great to see Naxos complete the Rochberg symphony cycle. If so, I’ll keep on listening!
Love Saygun's music - his first piano concerto, for instance, is a smoker! Rochberg's fifth symphony and the unique and moving violin concerto are also wonderful works. Dave, I hope you'll also bring us Karl Amadeus Hartmann, and some Finns - like Rautavaara and Aho. Coming to think of it, there are so many good ones out there! Kudos for this great enterprise!
David - great to see you on you tube - been awhile since we had discussions on music - our last one about tuning and organs. Glad to see you have this channel.
Hello Mr Hurwitz! I really like this video. I hope like some others here that you will include Allan Pettersson and Alfred Schnittke in this series. Maybe Malcolm Arnold too. His first symphony has a loud tamtam crash in the second movement! Best wishes Fred from Sweden
I think Arnold’s symphonies 1 and 7 through 9 might quality for this series - they’re quite dark and disturbing works. My favorite of his, though, is the shattering masterpiece that is the 5th Symphony, which in my opinion is one of the very greatest symphonies of the 20th century. I wonder if Dave has a talk about the Arnold symphonies in the works?
Szell lovers may want to hear his Rochberg Sym 2 from a 1959 concert performance on TH-cam. Very informative introductions to composers I rarely encounter. I hope you will continue this series.
What a coincidence - the other day I was just listening to Saygun’s 4th Symphony, which I found extremely impressive and exciting! It’s “modern” sounding without being overly acerbic or harsh. Saygun really knew how to sustain a musical argument over the course of a movement and, as another commenter mentioned, was a masterful orchestrator. Sessions and Rochberg I’m not as familiar with outside of some of their more “accessible” works. Those excerpts you played certainly were “tough”, but they still piqued my interest.
Thanks for highlighting these composers. New to me. Have been checking them out. Excellent. Looks like the Saygun cds are deleted. But a few on Discogs.
When I was still a kid (with weird musical tastes), I taped one of Saygun's symphonies off the radio, don't know which one. But I clearly remember investing quite some time in getting to know and enjoy the music. It was worth it. This video is just the second time I hear his name in about 30 years, I guess this is a sign from above that I should get my hands on that CPO set?
Cool video! Wow that Sessions is thorny! A couple of my favorites that maybe less tough but still quite tart and thorny are the Pierre-Octave Ferroud’s Symphonie en La (Krivine/Lyon), and Florent Schmitt’s 2nd (Oramo/BBCSO). Also I had the opportunity to play Ellen Zwilich’s 1st which won a Pulitzer. Very tough and intense!
I am grateful to have discovered the music of George Rochberg as a result of this video. The 5th Symphony and the Transcendental Variations have become firm favourites already. I'm interested to know where you would stand on the symphonies of Witold Lutoslawski, particularly his 3rd and 4th.
A shout out for Havergal Brian’s 32 symphonies which I think have now all been recorded. I can’t claim to know them all but those I have heard have certainly provided some challenging listening.
I thought of a candidate for later videos in this series - Braga Santos’ symphonies nos. 5 and 6. While I can’t claim to “love” them as much as his more accessible earlier works, they’re quite powerful and dark works that aren’t devoid of melody or emotion.
The series I've been waiting for, although I wonder if 'tough' is the best adjective. As you point out, composers who employ trail-breaking compositional techniques but who understand their music needs to beguile the ear through orchestral colour, rhythm or whatever, make for easier listening than those over-focused on how the notes look on paper. Saygun I find immediately attractive, Sessions a tougher 'ask'. Gerhard, always challenging after his earlier Sibelius-inspired stuff, still makes for exciting listening while Piston, a less 'out-there' composer, leaves me cold. Each to his/her own. I'm very much looking forward to the next episode.
Thank you so much for these inspiring talks. They prove that my taste doesn't go wrong. The Sessions must get a 2nd chance. On LP, I have his 2nd symphony (combined with Mennin's 3rd - oh, what a great finale! - and conducted by Mitropoulos). The 2nd is not yet 12-tone, as you know, of course, and I like it more (especially in the slow movement with it's dense but immensly refined counterpoint) than the later ones. Nevertheless, these also are great stuff. Rochberg was a master, even a genius! He worote great music in all idioms, and I even his 12-tone-works don't sound 12-tony, because of his strong gift for forming a theme, for rhythm and colour. My first Saygun was the oratorio "Yunus Emre", played live in Vienna - and I got hooked by a certain choral moment. Much later, I got the symphonies on CD, and yes, they are glorious. Sometimes Honegger comes to my mind. Saygun had a true symphonic gift - and it's time that I listen again to his music! Besides: One of my favourites is Carlos Chavez - one expects some folkloristic stuff, and then caome symphonies like "Antigona" or the completely non-romanic "Romantic". Chavez proves that one can write a harsh, modern, personal style without leaving tonality and ofering so much emotion for the listener. And that makes him great for me.
Thanks for mentioning Saygun - I really love his symphonies and concertos! BTW, are you considering including Kokkonen in your list of "tough symphonists"? IMO, he would fit just perfectly.
Thanks for spotlighting these figures: I've always enjoyed Sessions and Rochberg at a visceral level, even if I didn't always follow the argument. The authenticity shows through. I look forward to digging into Saygun. Videos like this are especially valuable. Any thoughts on Robert Simpson? Vagn Holmboe?
Such a good idea for a series of chats! I hope you don’t mind my bias to suggest 2 British composers - Julian Anderson (he’s a spectralist) and Peter Maxwell Davies (Orkney wedding is one of my absolute favourites) both are real tough to get into at times!
I call them "Industrial-strength" symphonies and back in the 80's Leonard Slatkin and the St Louis Symphony recorded two industrial strength works for RCA: Piston's Symphony no 6 and William Schuman's Symphony no. 10. For me, both are tough going. May i be allowed two requests: your review of the Krystof Penderecki symphonies on Naxos (5 discs) and one video sharing with us your favorite recordings by Toscanini, Beecham, Furtwangler and Klemperer. Thanks.
Thanks a lot for another interesting video! I don't know if you consider Penderecki as a tough symphonist, but I would love to see/listen to him in this talks.
I thought I'm the only one listening to Saygun, it's amazing music besides that the sound quality is also very very good. Saygun is totally underrated - what a shame!
Hi David, any chance of reviewing the new Muti box, before it goes out of print? I'm interested to know if they've done any kind of remastering. Many thanks!
Since I discovered your channel I've binge watched as many as I can and learned so much. You've cost me a bundle ! Its July...isnt it about time to Do a christmas music talk ?
Wow!! Worth listening to just for the Tam-tam. Very impressive, as are the extracts featured. Are you planning on giving a talk on Milton Babbitt anytime soon?
Glad to hear you give a nod to Sessions. Your talk reminded me of an incident from my time in academia when at a faculty meeting, one of the professors brought up an item concerning the question of whether to invite pianist Barry Salwen to give a lecture recital program he was offering, a lecture-recital on the 3 Sessions Piano Sonatas. The response of my colleagues was an immediate "no thanks" accompanied by a wrinkling of noses and rolling of eyeballs, as though we had just been offered a free taste of some exotic and nauseating-sounding ethnic cuisine (",,,like to try some Ghaak, anyone?...) I remember thinking that if this was the attitude of a group of highly accomplished and educated musicians, including one who was a rather spiky composer in his own right, what future hope was there for a composer like Sessions - or for ever having a chance to hear a major work like "Montezuma", twelve-tone opera meant to be his magnum opus. His complete piano music, by the way, including the 3 very different and fascinating Sonatas, is or was available on Koch, as recorded by Salwen.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I've been listening to Dorati's recording of Haydn's opera Orlando Paladino today and it has 3 big strikes of a tam tam that I'd guess must be like the one in this video. Quite the big sound with some staying power.
Doesn’t count for this series since it’s not a symphony proper, but Carl Ruggles’s “Sun-Treader” has the same wonderful American “luxuriate in the dissonance” quality of the Sessions and Rochberg
I'm a big fan of the Second Viennese School guys, and I've always wanted to like Sessions, but I somehow end up feeling disappointed by his stuff from the 1950s onwards. I like the first two symphonies and Black Maskers far better than his later works.
Dave, I was interested in your cheerful enthusiasm for the symphonies of Roger Sessions. This is a composer I've devoted quite a lot of time to over the years and have purchased several discs featuring his symphonies and chamber works for strings. Sadly, I've never been impressed by any of it - the neo-classical stuff nor the later twelve-tone stuff. I was hoping that your enthusiasm would rub off, so back I scurried to those Sessions discs, hoping for the best. And guess what? They're still as DULL as they ever were! Sessions was a big, influential figure in American classical music, so I guess other composers thought it prudent to be complimentary about his work. What that giant Stravinsky saw in mediocre Sessions I shall never know. I think he was just being extraordinarily polite. Anyway, thanks for your always helpful reviews.
Has it ever occured to you that the problem isn't everyone else? Of course you should like what you like, but Sessions was a fine composer, and if you don't get him, there's no shame in it.
Session I would not consider that atonal but rather one that can sound atonal upon first hearing but with repeated listens you hear a very idiosyncratic, extended tonality. But yes these composers require effort from the listener and time to digest.
It's unfortunate that none of these works or ones like them will ever see the light of day in American concert halls, or even in the numerous summer festivals; audiences, conductors, orchestra managers just are content to keep playing the same old worn out repertoire over and over. Now, on to Humphrey Searle, Robert Simpson, and Paul Kletzki!
Searle could be a great candidate for this series. His 2nd Symphony is a brooding, powerful work that, though atonal, is surprisingly accessible and emotionally involving. I’m afraid to say I quite dislike the music of Robert Simpson no matter how hard I try - it strikes me as being incredibly cold and detached.
My first thought with regards to "tough symphonists" was Alfred Schnittke - his music can sometimes be difficult (& profound), but at other times it can be great fun, like his Symphony No. 1!
David, thank you so much for bringing Ahmed Adnan Saygun to light. As you point out wonderfully he deserves to be known much better. Yes he can be sometimes difficult in his orchestral works, especially symphonies but he has a lot to discover and the orchestras should pay attention to him more in programming rather than investing in some obscure and unnecessary adventures.
George Rochberg left us in 2005. I had the privilege to sit a few rows behind him in about 2002 as one of his string quartets was performed. The joy on his face is etched in my memory. Thanks for bringing this music to our attention. We all have hurdles to get over to expand our listening and it is a wonderful thing when you help us out.
Sessions's works are amazing. I started listening to his symphonies and also his chamber music after your talk and I got instantly hooked on his music. Thank you!
The Saygun was new to me. What a great find. Looking forward to your in-depth talk about him. So appreciate you sharing your extensive knowledge with us!!!
Saygun!!!! I've been waiting for him to show up! I mainly know him for his fabulous concertos (especially his piano concertos- some of my favorite piano concertos of the 20th century) - but his symphonic works deserve more acclaim as well.
Saygun´s Symphonies are truly terrific and his Concerti are even better!
Great talk, Dave. Can't wait for Allan Pettersson, Matthijs Vermeulen, the Stefan Wolpe Symphony, and possibly the Webern Symphony? And perhaps the wacky stylistic soup that is the Schnittke FIrst Symphony....
It's "symphonists," not "symphonies" (even if I said that). Singleton works won't be included in this series.
Another fine talk, I am looking forward to more trios of gnarly symphonists. I am old enough to remember the critical reception of the premiere and recording of Rochberg's Violin Concerto; the musical establishment reacted with outrage, Rochberg was seen as an apostate; it was as if Sam Harris announced that he had been baptised as a born again Christian. I remember one review using the expression 'sweaty romanticism' to describe the Concerto.
Well, I did it -- listen to all three back-to-back-to-back. And I emerged without a scratch. Now, it wasn't my first go-round with any of the three composers, so I had an idea what to expect. I'm afraid that Sessions's music almost always strikes me as emotionally cramped, and this symphony was no exception after the fun Burleske. I applaud Rochberg for his absolutely total commitment to his expressive goals, and for keeping me engaged despite the forbidding idiom. The Saygun is fabulous -- what an exotic sound world and wealth of invention! As for more tough symphonies, bring 'em on, Brother Dave! In the meantime, I think I'll put on some nice Perry Como...
David a brilliant topic ,such a great discussion!!
Benjamin Frankel comes to mind, whose symphonies definitely fit that mode. Another composer in that vein is Robert Simpson.
“Write a music you love very much. If you are completely convinced, others will be convinced, and will eventually come to love it, too.” -Roger Sessions
So good to see Sessions is having a comeback. 🤭
That was a great performance, Dave. Thank you so much for starting this exciting new series. I can only subscribe to what previous commenters suggested here: please include Pettersson and Gerhard. Certainly some of the most neglected symphonies of the 20th century. I just received Pettersson’s 7th in the mail the other day and from the ones I’ve heard so far, it’s my favourite.
I've already done a Pettersson talk, but I may stick him in one of these batches too.
Talking (Jed Distler)about Pettersson (big box nla), one can add Rued Langgaard (boxed up), Vagn Holmboe (boxed up) and the still-living Per Norgard, and Aulis Sallinen (Sallinen in a nice big CPO box). Great talk Dave.
Byebye Saint Davislav, hello Spaceman Hurwitz! Great video dave, it's always nice to be introduced to new music and composers.
Attractive idea to give "tough" symphonists their deserved exposure. Of the composers in this first video, Saygun is definitely the more interesting to me. An incredible orchestrator and accomplished composer who excelled in symphonies and concertos, mostly. He also wrote string quartets which I don't know yet, but I believe that they must contain great music as well. Rochberg is new to these ears. The excerpt you played caught my attention, it's wild, astringent and gripping, and the rhythm makes this symphony much more approachable and engaging, something that doesn't happen with other dodecaphonic/serialist stuff by other composers. Sessions is the toughest to me, I've heard all his symphonies and only Nos. 1-3 appeal to my tastes. The next ones leave me cold. Thanks for starting this series. Looking forward to watching the next videos.
That Rochburg disc including Symphony No. 2 is a real stunner. I’m generally not a fan of serialism, but I do love this work without question or reservation. It would be great to see Naxos complete the Rochberg symphony cycle. If so, I’ll keep on listening!
Saygun is a delicious find, thanks. I have been able to download the symphonies except for number 4. Thanks, Elaine
Love Saygun's music - his first piano concerto, for instance, is a smoker! Rochberg's fifth symphony and the unique and moving violin concerto are also wonderful works. Dave, I hope you'll also bring us Karl Amadeus Hartmann, and some Finns - like Rautavaara and Aho. Coming to think of it, there are so many good ones out there! Kudos for this great enterprise!
David - great to see you on you tube - been awhile since we had discussions on music - our last one about tuning and organs. Glad to see you have this channel.
Thanks Chris. It's great to hear from you. I hope you're doing well.
Hello Mr Hurwitz!
I really like this video. I hope like some others here that you will include Allan Pettersson and Alfred Schnittke in this series. Maybe Malcolm Arnold too. His first symphony has a loud tamtam crash in the second movement!
Best wishes Fred from Sweden
I think Arnold’s symphonies 1 and 7 through 9 might quality for this series - they’re quite dark and disturbing works. My favorite of his, though, is the shattering masterpiece that is the 5th Symphony, which in my opinion is one of the very greatest symphonies of the 20th century. I wonder if Dave has a talk about the Arnold symphonies in the works?
Hi Dave
Hope you will cover Alfred Schnittke in this series, plenty to sink the teeth into.
Szell lovers may want to hear his Rochberg Sym 2 from a 1959 concert performance on TH-cam. Very informative introductions to composers I rarely encounter. I hope you will continue this series.
Saygun is fascinating indeed
What a coincidence - the other day I was just listening to Saygun’s 4th Symphony, which I found extremely impressive and exciting! It’s “modern” sounding without being overly acerbic or harsh. Saygun really knew how to sustain a musical argument over the course of a movement and, as another commenter mentioned, was a masterful orchestrator. Sessions and Rochberg I’m not as familiar with outside of some of their more “accessible” works. Those excerpts you played certainly were “tough”, but they still piqued my interest.
This stuff is so so cool. I don't need any adjustment, I am totally in.
Thanks for highlighting these composers. New to me. Have been checking them out. Excellent. Looks like the Saygun cds are deleted. But a few on Discogs.
When I was still a kid (with weird musical tastes), I taped one of Saygun's symphonies off the radio, don't know which one. But I clearly remember investing quite some time in getting to know and enjoy the music. It was worth it.
This video is just the second time I hear his name in about 30 years, I guess this is a sign from above that I should get my hands on that CPO set?
Handel is curing my depression right now
I'd like to suggest Panufnik, Robert Simpson, and Henze's first five.
That was refreshing. Thank you very much.
Nice idea.I have a little Rochberg and Sessions that I return to occasionally for a mental stretch.
Cool video! Wow that Sessions is thorny! A couple of my favorites that maybe less tough but still quite tart and thorny are the Pierre-Octave Ferroud’s Symphonie en La (Krivine/Lyon), and Florent Schmitt’s 2nd (Oramo/BBCSO). Also I had the opportunity to play Ellen Zwilich’s 1st which won a Pulitzer. Very tough and intense!
I am grateful to have discovered the music of George Rochberg as a result of this video. The 5th Symphony and the Transcendental Variations have become firm favourites already. I'm interested to know where you would stand on the symphonies of Witold Lutoslawski, particularly his 3rd and 4th.
Can I dare hope that you might include Roberto Gerhard?
Yes, except no way to play excerpts.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Too bad. He was one of the very best.
@@EnriqueHernandez-zk7qc Very true.
A shout out for Havergal Brian’s 32 symphonies which I think have now all been recorded. I can’t claim to know them all but those I have heard have certainly provided some challenging listening.
I thought of a candidate for later videos in this series - Braga Santos’ symphonies nos. 5 and 6. While I can’t claim to “love” them as much as his more accessible earlier works, they’re quite powerful and dark works that aren’t devoid of melody or emotion.
Great series! I vote...Harbison, Rouse and William Schuman!
The series I've been waiting for, although I wonder if 'tough' is the best adjective. As you point out, composers who employ trail-breaking compositional techniques but who understand their music needs to beguile the ear through orchestral colour, rhythm or whatever, make for easier listening than those over-focused on how the notes look on paper. Saygun I find immediately attractive, Sessions a tougher 'ask'. Gerhard, always challenging after his earlier Sibelius-inspired stuff, still makes for exciting listening while Piston, a less 'out-there' composer, leaves me cold. Each to his/her own. I'm very much looking forward to the next episode.
Yes, "tough" is the best adjective in the entire universe for this series. I checked.
Thank you so much for these inspiring talks. They prove that my taste doesn't go wrong. The Sessions must get a 2nd chance. On LP, I have his 2nd symphony (combined with Mennin's 3rd - oh, what a great finale! - and conducted by Mitropoulos). The 2nd is not yet 12-tone, as you know, of course, and I like it more (especially in the slow movement with it's dense but immensly refined counterpoint) than the later ones. Nevertheless, these also are great stuff.
Rochberg was a master, even a genius! He worote great music in all idioms, and I even his 12-tone-works don't sound 12-tony, because of his strong gift for forming a theme, for rhythm and colour.
My first Saygun was the oratorio "Yunus Emre", played live in Vienna - and I got hooked by a certain choral moment. Much later, I got the symphonies on CD, and yes, they are glorious. Sometimes Honegger comes to my mind. Saygun had a true symphonic gift - and it's time that I listen again to his music!
Besides: One of my favourites is Carlos Chavez - one expects some folkloristic stuff, and then caome symphonies like "Antigona" or the completely non-romanic "Romantic". Chavez proves that one can write a harsh, modern, personal style without leaving tonality and ofering so much emotion for the listener. And that makes him great for me.
Chavez is on the list. Hang in there!
@@DavesClassicalGuide That's great!
Thanks for mentioning Saygun - I really love his symphonies and concertos! BTW, are you considering including Kokkonen in your list of "tough symphonists"? IMO, he would fit just perfectly.
Yes.
Thanks for spotlighting these figures: I've always enjoyed Sessions and Rochberg at a visceral level, even if I didn't always follow the argument. The authenticity shows through. I look forward to digging into Saygun. Videos like this are especially valuable. Any thoughts on Robert Simpson? Vagn Holmboe?
Stay tuned...
Such a good idea for a series of chats! I hope you don’t mind my bias to suggest 2 British composers - Julian Anderson (he’s a spectralist) and Peter Maxwell Davies (Orkney wedding is one of my absolute favourites) both are real tough to get into at times!
Why did this remind me of the beginning of "Rank Organisation" films 😉
Very interesting ty! Two other American composer ( very different) that I feel I should know better are Piston and Diamond.
I call them "Industrial-strength" symphonies and back in the 80's Leonard Slatkin and the St Louis Symphony recorded two industrial strength works for RCA: Piston's Symphony no 6 and William Schuman's Symphony no. 10. For me, both are tough going.
May i be allowed two requests: your review of the Krystof Penderecki symphonies on Naxos (5 discs) and one video sharing with us your favorite recordings by Toscanini, Beecham, Furtwangler and Klemperer. Thanks.
Yes, I've always admired and been fond of Schnittke's concertos, orchestral pieces and symphonies. Any thoughts on him one day?
Sure.
Thanks a lot for another interesting video! I don't know if you consider Penderecki as a tough symphonist, but I would love to see/listen to him in this talks.
His third symphony fantastic. One of it’s movement’s appears in the movie Shutter Island, which introduced me to the music of Penderecki.
@@fulltongrace7899 Yes, it's a great work, along with his 2nd my favourite.
I thought I'm the only one listening to Saygun, it's amazing music besides that the sound quality is also very very good. Saygun is totally underrated - what a shame!
Hi David, any chance of reviewing the new Muti box, before it goes out of print? I'm interested to know if they've done any kind of remastering. Many thanks!
Yes and only where necessary.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you, David.
Since I discovered your channel I've binge watched as many as I can and learned so much. You've cost me a bundle ! Its July...isnt it about time to
Do a christmas music talk ?
Sure thing! Thanks for watching.
Wow!! Worth listening to just for the Tam-tam. Very impressive, as are the extracts featured.
Are you planning on giving a talk on Milton Babbitt anytime soon?
Glad to hear you give a nod to Sessions. Your talk reminded me of an incident from my time in academia when at a faculty meeting, one of the professors brought up an item concerning the question of whether to invite pianist Barry Salwen to give a lecture recital program he was offering, a lecture-recital on the 3 Sessions Piano Sonatas. The response of my colleagues was an immediate "no thanks" accompanied by a wrinkling of noses and rolling of eyeballs, as though we had just been offered a free taste of some exotic and nauseating-sounding ethnic cuisine (",,,like to try some Ghaak, anyone?...) I remember thinking that if this was the attitude of a group of highly accomplished and educated musicians, including one who was a rather spiky composer in his own right, what future hope was there for a composer like Sessions - or for ever having a chance to hear a major work like "Montezuma", twelve-tone opera meant to be his magnum opus. His complete piano music, by the way, including the 3 very different and fascinating Sonatas, is or was available on Koch, as recorded by Salwen.
Does such a marvelous shiny beast not damage one's hearing when it roars?
I depends how hard you hit it--those were not very loud shots, beliieve it or not, however they get picked up by the microphones.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I've been listening to Dorati's recording of Haydn's opera Orlando Paladino today and it has 3 big strikes of a tam tam that I'd guess must be like the one in this video. Quite the big sound with some staying power.
@@Don-md6wn Except that Haydn didn't write them. They are added sound effects (and good ones).
Doesn’t count for this series since it’s not a symphony proper, but Carl Ruggles’s “Sun-Treader” has the same wonderful American “luxuriate in the dissonance” quality of the Sessions and Rochberg
Absolutely. Love it!
I'm a big fan of the Second Viennese School guys, and I've always wanted to like Sessions, but I somehow end up feeling disappointed by his stuff from the 1950s onwards. I like the first two symphonies and Black Maskers far better than his later works.
Dave, I was interested in your cheerful enthusiasm for the symphonies of Roger Sessions. This is a composer I've devoted quite a lot of time to over the years and have purchased several discs featuring his symphonies and chamber works for strings. Sadly, I've never been impressed by any of it - the neo-classical stuff nor the later twelve-tone stuff. I was hoping that your enthusiasm would rub off, so back I scurried to those Sessions discs, hoping for the best. And guess what? They're still as DULL as they ever were! Sessions was a big, influential figure in American classical music, so I guess other composers thought it prudent to be complimentary about his work. What that giant Stravinsky saw in mediocre Sessions I shall never know. I think he was just being extraordinarily polite. Anyway, thanks for your always helpful reviews.
Has it ever occured to you that the problem isn't everyone else? Of course you should like what you like, but Sessions was a fine composer, and if you don't get him, there's no shame in it.
Sessions is tough but well worthwhile. Tougher symphonies? Luckily Schoenberg didn't write any (big ones)!
Hi Fred
Session I would not consider that atonal but rather one that can sound atonal upon first hearing but with repeated listens you hear a very idiosyncratic, extended tonality. But yes these composers require effort from the listener and time to digest.
Does Leif Segerstam also come on your list if TOUGH symphonists??
Different list. Wacky symphonists.
It's unfortunate that none of these works or ones like them will ever see the light of day in American concert halls, or even in the numerous summer festivals; audiences, conductors, orchestra managers just are content to keep playing the same old worn out repertoire over and over. Now, on to Humphrey Searle, Robert Simpson, and Paul Kletzki!
Searle could be a great candidate for this series. His 2nd Symphony is a brooding, powerful work that, though atonal, is surprisingly accessible and emotionally involving. I’m afraid to say I quite dislike the music of Robert Simpson no matter how hard I try - it strikes me as being incredibly cold and detached.
Well, for toughness, don't you think Brrrrrrrrruckner is a perfect candidate?
My first thought with regards to "tough symphonists" was Alfred Schnittke - his music can sometimes be difficult (& profound), but at other times it can be great fun, like his Symphony No. 1!
Are you planning to include Fricker's symphonies?
Not anytime soon.
I'm more of a Ferde Grofe fan