Ligeti had it right. The obituary for him in 'The Guardian' quote him as saying the following: "I cannot understand this idea of you have avant garde, and you have this postmodern neo-tonal stuff, as if these were the only two possibilities, there could be no third way. There are always a hundred ways. You have to find them."
Steve Reich studied with Luciano Berio, who -- of course -- taught the 12 tone/serial method. Reich said that what he did was write a 12 tone row and NOT invert it, NOT put it in retrograde, but just repeat it over and over while working with various rhythmic elements imposed upon the row. Berio, seeing this, told Reich "If you want to write tonal music, write tonal music." I'm impressed that Berio was willing to go that far. Of course, he's a 12 tone composer who wrote a lot of listenable, enjoyable, expressive music.
Another brilliant video! I happened to attend the University of Huddersfield in the UK. The town is known for the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival or HCMF. First year undergrads had to attend various HCMF concerts and write about music to pass the year. To do well at composition, one would have write in an "avant garde" way. This meant being forced to write in a non tonal fashion, thus propagating the orthodoxy as you put it. A classmate quickly realised if you wrote outrageous works, you'd get high marks. Cue compositions containing photocopiers and other wacky sound sources with no substance behind them...
I believe that serialism came about naturally and logically as one musical approach among many. But Schoenberg himself said he never intended it for all composers, and it's my understanding that he did not force it on his students. He chose to explore its possibilities in his own work (with some notable tonal exceptions) and would surely have deplored its use as a weapon in the academic and cultural power games that arose after his departure from the scene.
I wonderful video. Bravo! I believe Ned Rorem dubbed the academic dodecaphonists "serial killers." I was in college studying music between 1958 and 1963 during the height of this orthodoxy.
Fascinating topic for a video. You really know how to choose good ones. I'm glad that I started listening to/playing classical music in an era where atonal serialist music is dead and gone. The fact that it ever had such a grip on academia is mind boggling. So much time wasted!
@Samu390 It can be good, much more listenable than serializing tone rows. I haven't heard many examples of it though. I'm not even against atonality or dissonance. To the contrary: I love stravinsky, scriabin, and ligeti. The problem is that atonality became a dogma rather than a way to enhance a piece of music that's at least somewhat tonal overall. I think the real problem comes with total serialism, where rhythm is also serialized in a way where the note values can't repeat. If you aren't going to have harmony, the music has to have some sense of direction in the rhythm. Otherwise it really does become unlistenable.
I wonder if there is a parallel in the art world. Certain painters who made their names and reputations as abstract expressionists later turned to representational art and it cost some their cache amongst their peers. Grace Hartigan is one. Great list, David! Fascinating aspect of 20th century musical history.
Interesting question. I know Philip Glass has for many decades been good friends with (and frequent model/subject matter for) fellow-New-Yorker and visual artist Chuck Close, who in the 1970s rejected abstraction in favor of Hyperrealism, painting incredible oversized portraits complete with every hair, pore, wrinkle, and imperfection. The Hyperrealism movement of the 1970s was a reaction totally rejecting the abstraction that dominated Modern art at the time, and was roughly concurrent with the breakout period for Minimal Music (and indeed there was a similarly-named Minimalist art movement, examples of which grace the covers of some Glass albums...) So I wonder if there is also an artistic/philosophical connection amongst the broader generation that saw the natural limits of the pure abstraction that had dominated the century.
I'm studying music in Germany and it's so sad to me. Several generations of tonal composers pushed out of composition classes (or more often not accepted in the first place). The things some of the atonal guys are able to do with rhythm and creating textures is incredible. And sure, keep the atonal composition classes as they are. The issue is that there is nowhere to go for everyone else. Anything tonal is called "film music"... Great video, thanks for making it!
I wholeheartedly agree that the demise of the academic avant-garde was a thing to celebrate. Not because I personally dislike much of the music written in that style (although not nearly everything), but it's because of their borderline authoritarian attitude towards other composers. The last thing we need is a pope of music like Pierre Boulez as great an artist as he was. I absolutely despise the way many fine composers like Shostakovich, Britten, and Walton were targeted by the orthodox modernists with their poison arrows. Fortunately the attitudes were more liberal in the US, as you point out 9:22. I recall reading an interview with Esa-Pekka Salonen, who said that it wasn't until he arrived in Los Angeles that he felt liberated enough from the straitjacket of European avant-gardism. He said that in L.A. he started thinking that why should he care what Pierre Boulez would think about his artistic choices. An atmosphere like that must have been dreadful.
Serialism is what the *Soviets* (and other socialists) had (and have) been referring to as *_formalism_* -- an artistic *_outgrowth_* of capitalist decadence that tries to celebrate *_body & pleasure hostility_* to impose a rigid aesthetic of austerity. Basically the sonic equivalent of paleo-Christian *_self-flagellation._* (Compare also Black Metal and similar.)
What a terrific video - insightful and informative - a feast of names to explore further, each with a different story to tell, and a slice of musical history that can now be seen in perspective. Thank you, thank you.
I hadn't heard of HK Gruber & Kurt Schwertsik until you mentioned them here. Thanks for doing so! And thanks to TH-cam I had the opportunity to listen to a very enjoyable Chandos recording of works by Schwertsik conducted by HK Gruber ("Baumgesänge", "Nachtmusiken", and "Herr K entdeckt Amerika").
There was a period where it seemed that composers were composing for other composers and not for the average listener. Music can be challenging without being cryptic. For me there were so many pieces that made me want to opt for a well-played version of "Happy Birthday to You."
honestly, if serialism was meant to be "more complex" than tonal music, then white noise is the ultimate, most cerebral music that can exist, but i doubt any university board could support it. the structure of a musical piece is the difficult part to write, structure which is stripped more and more the more strictly serial the piece is.
While it seemed moving and new when it first came out, I find this symphony too drawn out to maintain my interest any longer. A problem I have with some minimalism is that unless something is revealed by repetition, it just seems vapid in a way that, for instance, the sweetly harmonious music of Korngold never does. I saw Philip Glass's Satyagraha, and while it is beautiful, I thought musically it unfolded three times slower than it should have, and made itself tedious, and destroyed any dramatic continuity of the opera.
Boulez admitted like 10 years before his death that pure serialism gave similar results to computers programmed to do it. Even Boulez ditched serialism eventually, and his later compositions although still very atonal were becoming 'statistically' modal in the sense that you get the feeling when listening to Répons or Sur Incises that stuff is somehow centered around a note that shifts endlessly. He admitted this distance himself in an interview with composer Karol Beffa. Some works by Boulez are worth listening in my opinion.
"Boulez admitted like 10 years before his death that pure serialism gave similar results to computers programmed to do it. Even Boulez ditched serialism eventually" In a way he ditched it already in the 50s with *Marteau sans maître* introducing chance procedures into his music.
@@Sulsfort exactly, both. I’m neutral about his « political » impact on music (although really he hardly damaged Dutilleux, Poulenc, Jolivet, Messiaen etc). But he wrote some rather engaging music and it’s irritating the way, in self-justification which is understandable, he has been used by other composers to show their novelty. He was good friends with Steve Reich for example. Philip Glass, as I understand it, mainly studied with Nadia Boulanger and Darius Milhaud, so you could hardly say he was being force-fed serialism…..
Brilliant observation from Rautavaara that serial music can actually be "safe" music for incompetents. I am not saying all serialists are that way - but it can be.
Love this video. Sets a period of history and the story of recent music in context. I would also very much like to hear your Great Serialists you mention here. And maybe a top 10 great serial works…?
I am a big fan of serial music, but for me, it is just one of many other types of music I love. As you say, it became an orthodoxy, which was obviously not a good thing.
Very interesting talk. I feel Schoenberg's 12 note method was a logical (legitimate) extrapolation of music becoming more and more chromatic. I do love some serial works deeply: Schoenberg Piano Concerto, Berg Violin Concerto but the serialism approach seemed to go off the deep end in the 50s, 60s and probably alienated audiences. No wonder so many composers turned away from it! I know that Steve Reich (whose music I adore) admired Schoenberg, Berio etc. but simply didn't want to write that way. As it is, both Reich and Glass have been tremendously successful in their music longevity and quality using minimalism and have enthusiastic audiences that span various music genres. Reich has expanded his art beyond pure minimalism. Rautavaara just created his own style which I love.
I went to Oberlin when Hans Hoffman was there. He was Schoenberg's secretary. He said Schoenberg claimed that the greatest c major composition has yet to be written
Your description of the attitudinal problems with regard to serial composers reminds me of what used to happen in the jazz world. Not so much these days thankfully, but I'm thinking of a certain kind of jazz musician that couldn't understand why nobody wanted to hear them blow over ten choruses of Donna Lee.
Toru Takemitsu is another composer that could be mentioned, gradually shifting away from avant-garde (though perhaps not strictly 12-tone) to a more conservative, consonant, broadly "romantic" style during the 1970s - but without a mere return to tonality, either.
I never heard of Einojuhani Rautavaara before that video. I checked on youtube, and wow, it is good : Symphony 3 and 7, piano concerto 1. Can't wait to hear the other works.
It seems a very good list of composers. I suggest to add Isang Yun here. I think Isang Yun is an important composer of 'post serialism' age. Please try his symphonies!
Fascinating discussion. I so well remember when the Concord Quartet recorded Rochberg's Third Quartet on Nonesuch and the sensation it made. I'd almost date that as the death knell of the serialist hegemony and the dawning of the postmodern era in serious music. I still have the lp itself, Rochberg's journey seemed so moving and significant. A great piece of music.
Jacob Druckman, one of my composition teachers at Yale, was pretty 12tonian in the 60ies (string quartet). Later on he became a good friend with Luciano Berio and there you have it: both of them learnt from Stockhausen, in fact and all three of them went on with their own music, building aleatoric language etc. Druckman wrote a whopping piece for large orchestra Windows in 1972 (Pullitzer Prize), a wonderful piece Prism from 1984 and other beautiful compositions.
Academical composition is still forced upon college students, with “research” replacing craft. I learned more about writing papers than I did about, say, instrumentation. Institutional avant-gardeism is still rampant.
Yeah, sounds very much like art schools these days. "Research" is a buzzword, and art students must learn to write statements about their work. These statements end up replete with such words as "interrogates," "explores," "modalities," "engages with", etc. I worked with many students who were doing great work, but struggled to verbalize what they were doing. I would help them come up with "statements". I had a colleague who had a great bit of wisdom - use your education in the academy to learn in spite of the academy.
Thinking on what today's 'institutional avant-garde' figures are producing, I'd almost welcome back a bunch of hardcore academics like Babbitt, etc..., because at least those people wrote some interesting music, albeit difficult music. Nowadays, thanks to decades of student-as-consumer administration, contemporary academia is plagued with consumer-culture populists who are continually pushing music programs to shift focus onto corporately-produced pop/rock/hip-hop music, while increasingly dismissing centuries worth of classical music because it was produced by 'old white men' who lived in countries that were colonizing/brutalizing the rest of the world. While I'm all for everything being put in proper historical contexts and for curricula becoming more 'global', I don't think that this is being handled very gracefully and that anti-intellectualism is gaining way too much ground.
Wendy Carlos once wrote in a letter to the NYT (IIRC) some years ago that serialism was a simple mathematical idea which only seemed big to musicians because it was, well, kind of mathematical, hence "deep". Carlos also studied physics and was dismayed by the reverence given to a rather trivial concept (mathematically speaking). The most annoying part was that students had to compose that way or else they wouldn't get a passing grade. My opinion is that serialism, like minimalism, was a cute concept that should have been used to produce a few works just to check the idea out (3-4 pieces max) over a year or two and just move on. The fact that both stuck for such a long time is strange but then so did communism in Russia, so what do I know. It sometimes seems to me like classical music went on vacation and disappeared after Mahler died and still hasn't returned. My hunch is that it was Penderecki's ambition to so something like picking up where Mahler left. Not sure how successful he was, there are some amazing moments in it.
Us ragtag band of TH-cam composers are still out here trying to revive the spirit of romanticism with our VST libraries with varying degrees of success. I recently completed a one-movement tonal symphony with very deep Mahler influences.
Very interesting Dave. Although I have felt for a long time that the supposed dominance of serialism is an overdone narrative, it’s hard to think of works that are actually serial and that anyone much listened to. Certainly the case in the uk and I doubt anyone was ever listening to much Babbit or whatever over there. Your list sort of proves this really as all these composers have been much more listened to since the 60s. The very most obvious example you left out is Gyorgy Ligeti, no idea why he isn’t in there…Maybe he didn’t ever write anything serial? I’ll bet he did at one point but nobody listened… :)
I think the only piece Ligeti wrote that comes close to serialism is the final movement of Musica Ricercata, which features a 12 note row treated in the style of Frescobaldi(!). Written in Hungary before he had any contact with the Western avant-garde. A composer that could have been included is Iannis Xenakis, who repudiated all his early serial works, considering Metastasis as his "Opus 1".
@@horsedoctorman And what a genuinely delightful work Musica Ricercata is! It’s not immature, there are things that look forward to his late works in there. But I bet if you played some of it to people who don’t know Ligeti they’d have no idea it was him. This is part of the problem with this construction of a supposedly hegemonic avant garde. The moment someone like Ligeti gets this label, people are turned off and don’t even bother listening! In this case they are really missing something they might treasure :)
@@murraylow4523 glad you enjoyed it and I agree wholeheartedly. "In a Landscape" by John Cage is another good example of the same phenomenon I think. Avant-garde doesn't mean atonal and abrasive, or shouldn't anyway.
@@horsedoctorman hi. Just listened to Musica Ricercata again, and realised that movement 7 (which does really sound like later Ligeti) is the basis for that extraordinary second movement in the violin concerto. So thanks for helping me notice that!
@@jasonclark901 In my experience with Miles (four live shows with the great Second Quintet in NYC and Chicago and in the innumerable videos as well), he never played with his back toward the audience (but I have to say, I didn't follow closely post-1970 during his fusion period). While others were soloing, he'd turn his back on the way back stage while not playing. IMO, beats the hell out of standing there finger popping and smiling to show how into it he was. I *think* that's a myth.
Very interesting! I didn’t know that Rautavaara or Penderecki were serialists. Great Rautavaara quote! In a recent video you referred to the demise of the Germanic symphony tradition. I’m interested in how the symphony has developed from Haydn to recent times. Have you done such a video? An idea if you haven’t; if you have please let me know where to find it.
Though not familiar with at least several of the composers on the list, this video really struck a chord (so to speak). Having spent my youth in England, and after starting to write music - tonal - in 1964 (at the age of 17), I used to think that I was at a disadvantage by not studying music formally at Cambridge and Oxford (where I studied medicine, and thereafter had a career as an academic physician). Looking back, however, it was advantageous not to be subjected professionally to the strictures of the stylistic thought police of the day (with which I was familiar, in the days when William Glock influenced the selection of new music played on the BBC Third programme, and via attendance at the Cheltenham Festival of British Contemporary Music - in the town where my parents and I lived, and where I did some page-turning during concerts). With that said, I was also aware of the need to aim at a professional standard of writing, and did my best to reach that level. The result has been a lifetime during much of which I've written music (all tonal and, I hope, not predictable). Use of words is important; the loaded term "post-tonal" to apply to atonal and serial music implies that this was the "only true way forward", and projected a certain rigidity and arrogance in the speaker. On the subject of "Viennese Schools" - I agree that enumerating these is unhelpful. If we're going to do this, however, may I be permitted to invoke Johann Joseph Fux (1660-1741) as a leading figure in a "First" Viennese School (followed by the "Second", led by my principal mentor, Joseph Haydn, who was appropriately celebrated by frequent BBC performances of his then "lesser-known" works in the 1960s, when atonal and serial music was also being given considerable air time, as noted above).
Glock and Boulez wielded a quite severe influence, particularly on the contents of the Proms. They couldn't 'ban' Elgar, RVW, etc. ...but Simpson, Arnold, Lloyd, Bax ???? Meagre representation
Thank you for this talk. Any style of music, if it starts to be used arbitrarily and no longer contributes to fresh expression, is abandoned, and what follows is a reaction against the style that is being replaced. Even madrigals became artistic dead ends. I suppose the next major revolution may be against the limitations of the tempered scale, harmonically reached in 12-tone serialism. I recently digitized my Nonesuch LP of Rochberg's 3rd String Quartet, and I remember being bothered in the 1970's (when I had last heard it) that the new future of music might be 'back to Mahler". Now that piece just sounds kitschy to me. My guess is that microtonality will be the limitless new frontier, and is already being increasingly embraced in popular music (without sounding like Harry Partch).
Microtonality does seem a rage right now. For some reason I'm uncomfortable with the notion that it's limitless :--) but the fervor with which it's practiced is impressive. However, 1/4-tones are poo-pooed nowadays. Sorry, Mr. Ives. Spectralism is still big as well. Then there's polytemporality... Those three are hot ones currently, it seems to me.
@@falesch I agree with you; while composers have had a long connection with tuning systems of western and indigenous peoples, I think budding composers have new resources to experiment (such as flexible microtonal plugins for tools such as MusScore) that will lead to wonderful discoveries. Listen to Jacob Collier's harmonization of the "Flinstone's" TV theme, then listen to the original to hear how compromised the well-tempered system sounds in comparison!
What was the Penderecki piece that first hooked you? I’ve yet to encounter anything that ‘wow-ed’ me from him. Any and all suggestions welcome. I had this conundrum with Elgar for awhile too. Now Jacqueline Du Pre is one of my all time favorite musicians, and a lot of that was from how she tackled those Elgar concertos.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks a ton, David. Apologies if you’ve already done so, but I’d love to hear your take on some Alfred Schnittke. I recently came up the Kronos Quartet album of his string quartets and Botvinov/Hope’s release on DG of his works for violin and piano. I’ve been very impressed by both of them.
I don't think my brain is even wired to appreciate atonal music, let alone serialism. The only atonal music that ever affected me in any way was Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire, which I found ugly and a bit disturbing, but it did give me chills and moved me in an inexplicable way. I've been to a few proms that showcased atonal, modern works, but they've always left me cold. Just the way I'm built I suppose.
You, me and, it would seem, about 99% of other listeners. I do like to hear some sort of memorable tune somewhere in the music, even a jagged one like Bartok or Prokofiev.
Diehards like Schoenberg and Boulez eventually created a distance between themselves and serial music, as well, didn't they? 12-tone music shares a distinction with rap music in that they both tried to create a music that minimized the role of melody. Rap music's been way more popular, of course, but even rap is edging back toward melody as it matures because listeners want it. If music is composed of melody, harmony, rhythm, and texture, then melody is the king of that quartet. It's often a useful exercise to create art by setting limits and boundaries. But eliminating melody from music does not tend to produce great music. We now have proven that. And as Nadia Boulanger often said, one can teach everything about music BUT melody. "Melody is a gift from God." So, in a sense, doing away with melody is akin to doing away with inspiration or the human higher self. Music for machines.
I went to a lecture many years ago that featured three composers: Rochberg, Wuornin, and Crumb. And I remember George Crumb saying something to the effect that he would never have become a composer if the only models he had for one were Stockhausen and Boulez.
@@theosalvucci8683 Right, and in the Crumb quotation he did say "if the ONLY models", leaving open the notion that he may have come to them only after (necessarily-) absorbing the work of others.
@@theosalvucci8683 If I had written: "Right, and in YOUR Crumb quotation...", it would have been closer to what I intended. "Right..." was me confirming that you were not offering an opinion.
It has occurred to me that perhaps the technique of serialism offered the potential for a limited number of major musical works--in the class of the Berg Violin Concerto. Less than 100? Less than 50? Probably more than 25?
I love your description of the 12 tone as a Loathsome Interlude. I cannot for the love of me understand why modern day composers concentrated on that odd concept of composing. Aren't there any modern day composers who actually used melody and harmony for Christ s sake? I get really riled up about this ! Sorry
I don't know if he regards dodecaphony loathsome as such. I think he is referring more to the period of academic serialism and that the 12-tone technique was being shoved down everyone's throats. I mean at the end of the day dodecaphony is simply one way for composers to organize their musical material. It's essentially neutral, it can be used to both good and bad. What I find revolting and what I think Dave protested the most is that serialism became such an orthodoxy. Whether you find much of the serialist music junk is another thing. Great many works in fact are, but in my opinion not nearly all.
@@anttivirolainen8223 You have hit the nail on the head. There indeed have been signs that David finds some works of dodecaphony and some freely atonal works to be impressive. Speaking of means to organize musical material, from an empirical basis I can vouch for the effectiveness of using a 12-tone row in a freely atonal manner. My wind quintet has struck some people as hyper chromatic with dissonances (it sounds that way to my ears as well) but it uses a 12-tone row and in some passages it adheres to strictness (in the Schoenbergian sense), but the row, by design, is tuneful.
@@falesch Sounds interesting. And of course, as we all know, wind quintet is an ensemble that even highlights the dissonances in the music, just like organ.
@@anttivirolainen8223 Before that project, I wasn't enthusiastic about ww quintet, mostly due to the treble-centric nature and the tight harmonies. But when a commission comes along, which are few and far between for me, I went for it w/o hesitation. I found ways to expand the registral spread and timbral spectrum via piccolo, bass clarinet, and cor anglais doublings; piccolo in its lowest register in unison rhythms with stopped horn, etc. I was satisfied with it (in truth, I love it).
There may still be holdouts, but THANK GOD the heyday of Academic Serialism is over. Musicologists with too much time on their hands, who seek some kind of New Frontier, might start investigating how Academic Serialism damaged and reduced the audience for "classical music," nearly as much as as rock n' roll. In fact, far better to listen to rock 'n roll than most A.S.
As soon as a principle becomes a dogma and some kind of sine qua non criteria, it also becomes a hiding place for mediocrity. It happened with historicity too. It was kinda necessary to whip up the lukewarm pool of Romantic decadence, but that too became a dogma. As for serialism - well, we have the advantage of hindsight - I have a hard time understanding how could anyone see in it the great solution for all the problems of music. It was kept alive mostly by the controversy around it and as soon as Stravinsky gave up and wrote Pulcinella, it deflated like the hot air balloon that it was. For many composers it was a phase in their creative life, a phase that they assumed and accepted, but one that they left in due time. One of my teachers (Ede Terenyi, RIP) used to refer to it - alluding to Bartok - as his barbaro period.
Thanks for introducing me to so many great composers! Are you aware of any plausible conspiracy theory why European states were pushing 12-tone music, and not something else?
I don't think it was ever the states (as in the governments) who pushed it. I think there are many aspects why people gravitated towards that kind of thinking, and most of them have to do with trauma, with an unhealthy view of the past and with avoiding (some kinds of) emotion. To some degree skepticism towards pathos, simple emotions, primal physicality and their combinations was justified, but many went way beyond a healthy helping of that skepticism.
Minimalism has never been an authoritarian orthodoxy imposed on generations of composers. Whether I (or you) like it or not is irrelevant. My disdain is not for serial music per se, but for the culture it spawned.
@@DavesClassicalGuide My experience of getting into classical music in the 90s/00s (i.e. a time where it felt like the debates about serialism were long settled) made me come to despise minimalism as well. While the problem didn't seem like a nightmare that was plaguing academia, I did feel like the marketing/hype surrounding figures like Glass, Part, Gorecki, Reich, etc.. tended to become pretty tedious and that a ton of (mostly not-very-talented) musicians/composers were needlessly dragging out the aforementioned debate about dodecaphonic writing as a weasel way of justifying their lack of career success (i.e. as it turns out, not everyone who writes minimalist or tonal work is able to succeed, as the market tends to be continually saturated). I specifically recall a fair amount of arrogant charlatanism from a few self-described 'post-minimalists', often unfairly ripping into figures like Elliott Carter, Charles Wuorinen, Brian Ferneyhough and accusing those composers' advocates of 'faking' their enthusiasms for that music, acting like those composers getting on programs was some sort of conspiracy, etc....
That needed to be said, (like the "God Delusion" ). Thoroughly enjoyed your collection. Its amazing how many of the greats had a dabble in serial, like Vaughn Williams, and I think Shostakowich, but not for long.
Canto Ostinato (1976) -a sonic marvel and one of the pinnacles of minimalism IMHO. 2 hours of 5/8 time signature. One of my students introduced it to me. My favourite version is by Jeroen van Veen and Sandra van Veen (pianos)
Ligeti had it right. The obituary for him in 'The Guardian' quote him as saying the following: "I cannot understand this idea of you have avant garde, and you have this postmodern neo-tonal stuff, as if these were the only two possibilities, there could be no third way. There are always a hundred ways. You have to find them."
I would love to see your list of 16 great serial compositions.
Steve Reich studied with Luciano Berio, who -- of course -- taught the 12 tone/serial method. Reich said that what he did was write a 12 tone row and NOT invert it, NOT put it in retrograde, but just repeat it over and over while working with various rhythmic elements imposed upon the row. Berio, seeing this, told Reich "If you want to write tonal music, write tonal music."
I'm impressed that Berio was willing to go that far. Of course, he's a 12 tone composer who wrote a lot of listenable, enjoyable, expressive music.
Another brilliant video! I happened to attend the University of Huddersfield in the UK. The town is known for the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival or HCMF.
First year undergrads had to attend various HCMF concerts and write about music to pass the year.
To do well at composition, one would have write in an "avant garde" way. This meant being forced to write in a non tonal fashion, thus propagating the orthodoxy as you put it.
A classmate quickly realised if you wrote outrageous works, you'd get high marks. Cue compositions containing photocopiers and other wacky sound sources with no substance behind them...
I believe that serialism came about naturally and logically as one musical approach among many. But Schoenberg himself said he never intended it for all composers, and it's my understanding that he did not force it on his students. He chose to explore its possibilities in his own work (with some notable tonal exceptions) and would surely have deplored its use as a weapon in the academic and cultural power games that arose after his departure from the scene.
I wonderful video. Bravo! I believe Ned Rorem dubbed the academic dodecaphonists "serial killers." I was in college studying music between 1958 and 1963 during the height of this orthodoxy.
Fascinating topic for a video. You really know how to choose good ones. I'm glad that I started listening to/playing classical music in an era where atonal serialist music is dead and gone. The fact that it ever had such a grip on academia is mind boggling. So much time wasted!
@Samu390 It can be good, much more listenable than serializing tone rows. I haven't heard many examples of it though.
I'm not even against atonality or dissonance. To the contrary: I love stravinsky, scriabin, and ligeti. The problem is that atonality became a dogma rather than a way to enhance a piece of music that's at least somewhat tonal overall.
I think the real problem comes with total serialism, where rhythm is also serialized in a way where the note values can't repeat. If you aren't going to have harmony, the music has to have some sense of direction in the rhythm. Otherwise it really does become unlistenable.
I wonder if there is a parallel in the art world. Certain painters who made their names and reputations as abstract expressionists later turned to representational art and it cost some their cache amongst their peers. Grace Hartigan is one. Great list, David! Fascinating aspect of 20th century musical history.
Interesting question. I know Philip Glass has for many decades been good friends with (and frequent model/subject matter for) fellow-New-Yorker and visual artist Chuck Close, who in the 1970s rejected abstraction in favor of Hyperrealism, painting incredible oversized portraits complete with every hair, pore, wrinkle, and imperfection. The Hyperrealism movement of the 1970s was a reaction totally rejecting the abstraction that dominated Modern art at the time, and was roughly concurrent with the breakout period for Minimal Music (and indeed there was a similarly-named Minimalist art movement, examples of which grace the covers of some Glass albums...) So I wonder if there is also an artistic/philosophical connection amongst the broader generation that saw the natural limits of the pure abstraction that had dominated the century.
I'm studying music in Germany and it's so sad to me. Several generations of tonal composers pushed out of composition classes (or more often not accepted in the first place). The things some of the atonal guys are able to do with rhythm and creating textures is incredible. And sure, keep the atonal composition classes as they are. The issue is that there is nowhere to go for everyone else. Anything tonal is called "film music"... Great video, thanks for making it!
I wholeheartedly agree that the demise of the academic avant-garde was a thing to celebrate. Not because I personally dislike much of the music written in that style (although not nearly everything), but it's because of their borderline authoritarian attitude towards other composers. The last thing we need is a pope of music like Pierre Boulez as great an artist as he was. I absolutely despise the way many fine composers like Shostakovich, Britten, and Walton were targeted by the orthodox modernists with their poison arrows.
Fortunately the attitudes were more liberal in the US, as you point out 9:22. I recall reading an interview with Esa-Pekka Salonen, who said that it wasn't until he arrived in Los Angeles that he felt liberated enough from the straitjacket of European avant-gardism. He said that in L.A. he started thinking that why should he care what Pierre Boulez would think about his artistic choices. An atmosphere like that must have been dreadful.
Serialism is what the *Soviets* (and other socialists) had (and have) been referring to as *_formalism_* -- an artistic *_outgrowth_* of capitalist decadence that tries to celebrate *_body & pleasure hostility_* to impose a rigid aesthetic of austerity. Basically the sonic equivalent of paleo-Christian *_self-flagellation._* (Compare also Black Metal and similar.)
My list of composers who could be:
1) Telemann
2) Clara Schumann
3) Elliot Carter
What a terrific video - insightful and informative - a feast of names to explore further, each with a different story to tell, and a slice of musical history that can now be seen in perspective. Thank you, thank you.
I hadn't heard of HK Gruber & Kurt Schwertsik until you mentioned them here. Thanks for doing so! And thanks to TH-cam I had the opportunity to listen to a very enjoyable Chandos recording of works by Schwertsik conducted by HK Gruber ("Baumgesänge", "Nachtmusiken", and "Herr K entdeckt Amerika").
There was a period where it seemed that composers were composing for other composers and not for the average listener. Music can be challenging without being cryptic. For me there were so many pieces that made me want to opt for a well-played version of "Happy Birthday to You."
honestly, if serialism was meant to be "more complex" than tonal music, then white noise is the ultimate, most cerebral music that can exist, but i doubt any university board could support it. the structure of a musical piece is the difficult part to write, structure which is stripped more and more the more strictly serial the piece is.
Would Henryk Gorecki also fall into this list? His Symphony of Sorrowful Songs was the ultimate slap on the face of serialism.
While it seemed moving and new when it first came out, I find this symphony too drawn out to maintain my interest any longer. A problem I have with some minimalism is that unless something is revealed by repetition, it just seems vapid in a way that, for instance, the sweetly harmonious music of Korngold never does. I saw Philip Glass's Satyagraha, and while it is beautiful, I thought musically it unfolded three times slower than it should have, and made itself tedious, and destroyed any dramatic continuity of the opera.
Boulez admitted like 10 years before his death that pure serialism gave similar results to computers programmed to do it. Even Boulez ditched serialism eventually, and his later compositions although still very atonal were becoming 'statistically' modal in the sense that you get the feeling when listening to Répons or Sur Incises that stuff is somehow centered around a note that shifts endlessly. He admitted this distance himself in an interview with composer Karol Beffa. Some works by Boulez are worth listening in my opinion.
"Boulez admitted like 10 years before his death that pure serialism gave similar results to computers programmed to do it. Even Boulez ditched serialism eventually"
In a way he ditched it already in the 50s with *Marteau sans maître* introducing chance procedures into his music.
@@Sulsfort exactly, both. I’m neutral about his « political » impact on music (although really he hardly damaged Dutilleux, Poulenc, Jolivet, Messiaen etc). But he wrote some rather engaging music and it’s irritating the way, in self-justification which is understandable, he has been used by other composers to show their novelty. He was good friends with Steve Reich for example. Philip Glass, as I understand it, mainly studied with Nadia Boulanger and Darius Milhaud, so you could hardly say he was being force-fed serialism…..
Brilliant observation from Rautavaara that serial music can actually be "safe" music for incompetents. I am not saying all serialists are that way - but it can be.
Love this video. Sets a period of history and the story of recent music in context. I would also very much like to hear your Great Serialists you mention here. And maybe a top 10 great serial works…?
Thanks! Check out my Atonal/12-Tone works for beginners list.
Very interesting talk. What are your thoughts /views on Frank Zappa’s classical output? Worth a chat maybe?
Na, mediocre works.
Thank you for teaching me how to pronounce Einojuhani.
Don't take my word for it!
@@DavesClassicalGuide The pronunciation is correct.
I am a big fan of serial music, but for me, it is just one of many other types of music I love.
As you say, it became an orthodoxy, which was obviously not a good thing.
Very interesting talk. I feel Schoenberg's 12 note method was a logical (legitimate) extrapolation of music becoming more and more chromatic. I do love some serial works deeply: Schoenberg Piano Concerto, Berg Violin Concerto but the serialism approach seemed to go off the deep end in the 50s, 60s and probably alienated audiences. No wonder so many composers turned away from it! I know that Steve Reich (whose music I adore) admired Schoenberg, Berio etc. but simply didn't want to write that way. As it is, both Reich and Glass have been tremendously successful in their music longevity and quality using minimalism and have enthusiastic audiences that span various music genres. Reich has expanded his art beyond pure minimalism. Rautavaara just created his own style which I love.
I went to Oberlin when Hans Hoffman was there. He was Schoenberg's secretary. He said Schoenberg claimed that the greatest c major composition has yet to be written
Are we supposed to find that remark intelligent?
So nice to hear a mention of Kurt Schwertzik. I had the pleasure of meeting him in the late 90s.
Your description of the attitudinal problems with regard to serial composers reminds me of what used to happen in the jazz world. Not so much these days thankfully, but I'm thinking of a certain kind of jazz musician that couldn't understand why nobody wanted to hear them blow over ten choruses of Donna Lee.
Toru Takemitsu is another composer that could be mentioned, gradually shifting away from avant-garde (though perhaps not strictly 12-tone) to a more conservative, consonant, broadly "romantic" style during the 1970s - but without a mere return to tonality, either.
I never heard of Einojuhani Rautavaara before that video. I checked on youtube, and wow, it is good : Symphony 3 and 7, piano concerto 1. Can't wait to hear the other works.
It seems a very good list of composers. I suggest to add Isang Yun here. I think Isang Yun is an important composer of 'post serialism' age. Please try his symphonies!
Fascinating discussion. I so well remember when the Concord Quartet recorded Rochberg's Third Quartet on Nonesuch and the sensation it made. I'd almost date that as the death knell of the serialist hegemony and the dawning of the postmodern era in serious music. I still have the lp itself, Rochberg's journey seemed so moving and significant. A great piece of music.
Jacob Druckman, one of my composition teachers at Yale, was pretty 12tonian in the 60ies (string quartet). Later on he became a good friend with Luciano Berio and there you have it: both of them learnt from Stockhausen, in fact and all three of them went on with their own music, building aleatoric language etc. Druckman wrote a whopping piece for large orchestra Windows in 1972 (Pullitzer Prize), a wonderful piece Prism from 1984 and other beautiful compositions.
A good follow on discussion would be about the Expressionist composers, eg, Krenek, Wellesz, Toch.
Academical composition is still forced upon college students, with “research” replacing craft. I learned more about writing papers than I did about, say, instrumentation. Institutional avant-gardeism is still rampant.
Of course. These losers have tenure.
...but non-academic avant-gardeism is great 😉!
Yeah, sounds very much like art schools these days. "Research" is a buzzword, and art students must learn to write statements about their work. These statements end up replete with such words as "interrogates," "explores," "modalities," "engages with", etc. I worked with many students who were doing great work, but struggled to verbalize what they were doing. I would help them come up with "statements". I had a colleague who had a great bit of wisdom - use your education in the academy to learn in spite of the academy.
Thinking on what today's 'institutional avant-garde' figures are producing, I'd almost welcome back a bunch of hardcore academics like Babbitt, etc..., because at least those people wrote some interesting music, albeit difficult music. Nowadays, thanks to decades of student-as-consumer administration, contemporary academia is plagued with consumer-culture populists who are continually pushing music programs to shift focus onto corporately-produced pop/rock/hip-hop music, while increasingly dismissing centuries worth of classical music because it was produced by 'old white men' who lived in countries that were colonizing/brutalizing the rest of the world. While I'm all for everything being put in proper historical contexts and for curricula becoming more 'global', I don't think that this is being handled very gracefully and that anti-intellectualism is gaining way too much ground.
Hear, hear on Rautavaara and Penderecki. their post-atonal works are just wonderful.
Wendy Carlos once wrote in a letter to the NYT (IIRC) some years ago that serialism was a simple mathematical idea which only seemed big to musicians because it was, well, kind of mathematical, hence "deep". Carlos also studied physics and was dismayed by the reverence given to a rather trivial concept (mathematically speaking). The most annoying part was that students had to compose that way or else they wouldn't get a passing grade. My opinion is that serialism, like minimalism, was a cute concept that should have been used to produce a few works just to check the idea out (3-4 pieces max) over a year or two and just move on. The fact that both stuck for such a long time is strange but then so did communism in Russia, so what do I know. It sometimes seems to me like classical music went on vacation and disappeared after Mahler died and still hasn't returned. My hunch is that it was Penderecki's ambition to so something like picking up where Mahler left. Not sure how successful he was, there are some amazing moments in it.
Us ragtag band of TH-cam composers are still out here trying to revive the spirit of romanticism with our VST libraries with varying degrees of success. I recently completed a one-movement tonal symphony with very deep Mahler influences.
I can only accept Serialism on two conditions: It must be (1) set in a tonal context like the Alban Berg Violin Concerto and (2) gluten-free.
Very interesting Dave. Although I have felt for a long time that the supposed dominance of serialism is an overdone narrative, it’s hard to think of works that are actually serial and that anyone much listened to. Certainly the case in the uk and I doubt anyone was ever listening to much Babbit or whatever over there. Your list sort of proves this really as all these composers have been much more listened to since the 60s.
The very most obvious example you left out is Gyorgy Ligeti, no idea why he isn’t in there…Maybe he didn’t ever write anything serial? I’ll bet he did at one point but nobody listened… :)
I think the only piece Ligeti wrote that comes close to serialism is the final movement of Musica Ricercata, which features a 12 note row treated in the style of Frescobaldi(!). Written in Hungary before he had any contact with the Western avant-garde. A composer that could have been included is Iannis Xenakis, who repudiated all his early serial works, considering Metastasis as his "Opus 1".
@@horsedoctorman Thanks! What an interesting response. I’ll check that particular Ligeti piece out, it’s around here (in various forms).
@@horsedoctorman And what a genuinely delightful work Musica Ricercata is! It’s not immature, there are things that look forward to his late works in there. But I bet if you played some of it to people who don’t know Ligeti they’d have no idea it was him. This is part of the problem with this construction of a supposedly hegemonic avant garde. The moment someone like Ligeti gets this label, people are turned off and don’t even bother listening! In this case they are really missing something they might treasure :)
@@murraylow4523 glad you enjoyed it and I agree wholeheartedly. "In a Landscape" by John Cage is another good example of the same phenomenon I think. Avant-garde doesn't mean atonal and abrasive, or shouldn't anyway.
@@horsedoctorman hi. Just listened to Musica Ricercata again, and realised that movement 7 (which does really sound like later Ligeti) is the basis for that extraordinary second movement in the violin concerto. So thanks for helping me notice that!
That " screw you " reminds me of Milton Babbit's " Who cares if you're listening? "
@@jasonclark901 In my experience with Miles (four live shows with the great Second Quintet in NYC and Chicago and in the innumerable videos as well), he never played with his back toward the audience (but I have to say, I didn't follow closely post-1970 during his fusion period). While others were soloing, he'd turn his back on the way back stage while not playing. IMO, beats the hell out of standing there finger popping and smiling to show how into it he was. I *think* that's a myth.
Very interesting! I didn’t know that Rautavaara or Penderecki were serialists. Great Rautavaara quote! In a recent video you referred to the demise of the Germanic symphony tradition. I’m interested in how the symphony has developed from Haydn to recent times. Have you done such a video? An idea if you haven’t; if you have please let me know where to find it.
I would second the idea of a development of the symphony episode or series of episodes.
Though not familiar with at least several of the composers on the list, this video really struck a chord (so to speak). Having spent my youth in England, and after starting to write music - tonal - in 1964 (at the age of 17), I used to think that I was at a disadvantage by not studying music formally at Cambridge and Oxford (where I studied medicine, and thereafter had a career as an academic physician). Looking back, however, it was advantageous not to be subjected professionally to the strictures of the stylistic thought police of the day (with which I was familiar, in the days when William Glock influenced the selection of new music played on the BBC Third programme, and via attendance at the Cheltenham Festival of British Contemporary Music - in the town where my parents and I lived, and where I did some page-turning during concerts). With that said, I was also aware of the need to aim at a professional standard of writing, and did my best to reach that level. The result has been a lifetime during much of which I've written music (all tonal and, I hope, not predictable). Use of words is important; the loaded term "post-tonal" to apply to atonal and serial music implies that this was the "only true way forward", and projected a certain rigidity and arrogance in the speaker. On the subject of "Viennese Schools" - I agree that enumerating these is unhelpful. If we're going to do this, however, may I be permitted to invoke Johann Joseph Fux (1660-1741) as a leading figure in a "First" Viennese School (followed by the "Second", led by my principal mentor, Joseph Haydn, who was appropriately celebrated by frequent BBC performances of his then "lesser-known" works in the 1960s, when atonal and serial music was also being given considerable air time, as noted above).
Glock and Boulez wielded a quite severe influence, particularly on the contents of the Proms. They couldn't 'ban' Elgar, RVW, etc. ...but Simpson, Arnold, Lloyd, Bax ???? Meagre representation
Excellent insight 💯😎💯
Thank you for this talk. Any style of music, if it starts to be used arbitrarily and no longer contributes to fresh expression, is abandoned, and what follows is a reaction against the style that is being replaced. Even madrigals became artistic dead ends. I suppose the next major revolution may be against the limitations of the tempered scale, harmonically reached in 12-tone serialism. I recently digitized my Nonesuch LP of Rochberg's 3rd String Quartet, and I remember being bothered in the 1970's (when I had last heard it) that the new future of music might be 'back to Mahler". Now that piece just sounds kitschy to me. My guess is that microtonality will be the limitless new frontier, and is already being increasingly embraced in popular music (without sounding like Harry Partch).
Microtonality does seem a rage right now. For some reason I'm uncomfortable with the notion that it's limitless :--) but the fervor with which it's practiced is impressive. However, 1/4-tones are poo-pooed nowadays. Sorry, Mr. Ives. Spectralism is still big as well. Then there's polytemporality... Those three are hot ones currently, it seems to me.
@@falesch I agree with you; while composers have had a long connection with tuning systems of western and indigenous peoples, I think budding composers have new resources to experiment (such as flexible microtonal plugins for tools such as MusScore) that will lead to wonderful discoveries. Listen to Jacob Collier's harmonization of the "Flinstone's" TV theme, then listen to the original to hear how compromised the well-tempered system sounds in comparison!
Very good video, Dave! Can you do a video of recommended recordings of some compositions by these composers who renounced serialism?
I have discussed many of them already.
Super interesting topic for video.
What was the Penderecki piece that first hooked you? I’ve yet to encounter anything that ‘wow-ed’ me from him. Any and all suggestions welcome. I had this conundrum with Elgar for awhile too. Now Jacqueline Du Pre is one of my all time favorite musicians, and a lot of that was from how she tackled those Elgar concertos.
De natura sonoris No. 1.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks a ton, David. Apologies if you’ve already done so, but I’d love to hear your take on some Alfred Schnittke. I recently came up the Kronos Quartet album of his string quartets and Botvinov/Hope’s release on DG of his works for violin and piano. I’ve been very impressed by both of them.
Thanks!
Thank you very much!
Brit composer (and former Boulez acolyte) Richard Rodney Bennett could join the list.
I don't think my brain is even wired to appreciate atonal music, let alone serialism. The only atonal music that ever affected me in any way was Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire, which I found ugly and a bit disturbing, but it did give me chills and moved me in an inexplicable way. I've been to a few proms that showcased atonal, modern works, but they've always left me cold. Just the way I'm built I suppose.
You, me and, it would seem, about 99% of other listeners. I do like to hear some sort of memorable tune somewhere in the music, even a jagged one like Bartok or Prokofiev.
Diehards like Schoenberg and Boulez eventually created a distance between themselves and serial music, as well, didn't they? 12-tone music shares a distinction with rap music in that they both tried to create a music that minimized the role of melody. Rap music's been way more popular, of course, but even rap is edging back toward melody as it matures because listeners want it. If music is composed of melody, harmony, rhythm, and texture, then melody is the king of that quartet. It's often a useful exercise to create art by setting limits and boundaries. But eliminating melody from music does not tend to produce great music. We now have proven that.
And as Nadia Boulanger often said, one can teach everything about music BUT melody. "Melody is a gift from God." So, in a sense, doing away with melody is akin to doing away with inspiration or the human higher self. Music for machines.
I went to a lecture many years ago that featured three composers: Rochberg, Wuornin, and Crumb. And I remember George Crumb saying something to the effect that he would never have become a composer if the only models he had for one were Stockhausen and Boulez.
Yes well, but even Stockhausen is complicated, eg Stimmung, which is hardly a rébarbative listen!
@@murraylow4523 It wasn't my opinion.
@@theosalvucci8683 Right, and in the Crumb quotation he did say "if the ONLY models", leaving open the notion that he may have come to them only after (necessarily-) absorbing the work of others.
@@falesch I'm glad that I remembered it correctly. Thanks.
@@theosalvucci8683 If I had written: "Right, and in YOUR Crumb quotation...", it would have been closer to what I intended. "Right..." was me confirming that you were not offering an opinion.
I was told all new pieces had to be 12 tone.
It has occurred to me that perhaps the technique of serialism offered the potential for a limited number of major musical works--in the class of the Berg Violin Concerto. Less than 100? Less than 50? Probably more than 25?
What about Malipiero? Where does he fall in this area
I love your description of the 12 tone as a Loathsome Interlude. I cannot for the love of me understand why modern day composers concentrated on that odd concept of composing. Aren't there any modern day composers who actually used melody and harmony for Christ s sake? I get really riled up about this ! Sorry
I don't know if he regards dodecaphony loathsome as such. I think he is referring more to the period of academic serialism and that the 12-tone technique was being shoved down everyone's throats.
I mean at the end of the day dodecaphony is simply one way for composers to organize their musical material. It's essentially neutral, it can be used to both good and bad. What I find revolting and what I think Dave protested the most is that serialism became such an orthodoxy. Whether you find much of the serialist music junk is another thing. Great many works in fact are, but in my opinion not nearly all.
@@anttivirolainen8223 You have hit the nail on the head. There indeed have been signs that David finds some works of dodecaphony and some freely atonal works to be impressive. Speaking of means to organize musical material, from an empirical basis I can vouch for the effectiveness of using a 12-tone row in a freely atonal manner. My wind quintet has struck some people as hyper chromatic with dissonances (it sounds that way to my ears as well) but it uses a 12-tone row and in some passages it adheres to strictness (in the Schoenbergian sense), but the row, by design, is tuneful.
@@falesch Sounds interesting. And of course, as we all know, wind quintet is an ensemble that even highlights the dissonances in the music, just like organ.
@@anttivirolainen8223 Before that project, I wasn't enthusiastic about ww quintet, mostly due to the treble-centric nature and the tight harmonies. But when a commission comes along, which are few and far between for me, I went for it w/o hesitation. I found ways to expand the registral spread and timbral spectrum via piccolo, bass clarinet, and cor anglais doublings; piccolo in its lowest register in unison rhythms with stopped horn, etc. I was satisfied with it (in truth, I love it).
There may still be holdouts, but THANK GOD the heyday of Academic Serialism is over.
Musicologists with too much time on their hands, who seek some kind of New Frontier, might start investigating how Academic Serialism damaged and reduced the audience for "classical music," nearly as much as as rock n' roll. In fact, far better to listen to rock 'n roll than most A.S.
As soon as a principle becomes a dogma and some kind of sine qua non criteria, it also becomes a hiding place for mediocrity. It happened with historicity too. It was kinda necessary to whip up the lukewarm pool of Romantic decadence, but that too became a dogma.
As for serialism - well, we have the advantage of hindsight - I have a hard time understanding how could anyone see in it the great solution for all the problems of music. It was kept alive mostly by the controversy around it and as soon as Stravinsky gave up and wrote Pulcinella, it deflated like the hot air balloon that it was.
For many composers it was a phase in their creative life, a phase that they assumed and accepted, but one that they left in due time. One of my teachers (Ede Terenyi, RIP) used to refer to it - alluding to Bartok - as his barbaro period.
Thanks for introducing me to so many great composers! Are you aware of any plausible conspiracy theory why European states were pushing 12-tone music, and not something else?
Not that I know of. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I do, however, believe in stupidity.
I don't think it was ever the states (as in the governments) who pushed it. I think there are many aspects why people gravitated towards that kind of thinking, and most of them have to do with trauma, with an unhealthy view of the past and with avoiding (some kinds of) emotion. To some degree skepticism towards pathos, simple emotions, primal physicality and their combinations was justified, but many went way beyond a healthy helping of that skepticism.
I would say John Mauceri's recent book, The War on Music, is a good source to explore how that came about in the postwar era.
@@simonalbrecht9435 Thank you for taking the time to reply. Sounds plausible to me.
@@bbailey7818 Thanks for the excellent recommendation. Just started reading. Perfect for my upcoming vacation.
Personally I have more disdain for minimalism than you do for serialism, and I stand almost in the same place that you do on serialism.
Minimalism has never been an authoritarian orthodoxy imposed on generations of composers. Whether I (or you) like it or not is irrelevant. My disdain is not for serial music per se, but for the culture it spawned.
@@DavesClassicalGuide My experience of getting into classical music in the 90s/00s (i.e. a time where it felt like the debates about serialism were long settled) made me come to despise minimalism as well. While the problem didn't seem like a nightmare that was plaguing academia, I did feel like the marketing/hype surrounding figures like Glass, Part, Gorecki, Reich, etc.. tended to become pretty tedious and that a ton of (mostly not-very-talented) musicians/composers were needlessly dragging out the aforementioned debate about dodecaphonic writing as a weasel way of justifying their lack of career success (i.e. as it turns out, not everyone who writes minimalist or tonal work is able to succeed, as the market tends to be continually saturated). I specifically recall a fair amount of arrogant charlatanism from a few self-described 'post-minimalists', often unfairly ripping into figures like Elliott Carter, Charles Wuorinen, Brian Ferneyhough and accusing those composers' advocates of 'faking' their enthusiasms for that music, acting like those composers getting on programs was some sort of conspiracy, etc....
@@junzeroni It wasn't a conspiracy, but it was politics, as it always is...
That needed to be said, (like the "God Delusion" ). Thoroughly enjoyed your collection. Its amazing how many of the greats had a dabble in serial, like Vaughn Williams, and I think Shostakowich, but not for long.
Serialism is easy, for the last 40 years it has been possible to write a computer code and just press Enter.
Slightly related - Simeon ten Holt.
You tell me.
Canto Ostinato (1976) -a sonic marvel and one of the pinnacles of minimalism IMHO. 2 hours of 5/8 time signature. One of my students introduced it to me. My favourite version is by Jeroen van Veen and Sandra van Veen (pianos)
@@DavesClassicalGuide I have edited out my question mark.
Tried to like serialism when I was a kid; when I became a man I put aside childish things. Actually I do like some of it… HOWEVER…
Where is zemlinsky. ????
I think he's dead.
Yes. Died in 1942. But he was schonbergs teacher and brother-in-law law. He also refuted atonality.