3 Tankless Water Heater Myths
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
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In Japan you will frequently find multiple smaller tankless throughout the home, one near each fixture with it's own thermostat control. For instance I was living in a two bedroom apartment and had one in the kitchen, one in the toilet room restroom, and one in the shower/bath room. Because they were located so close to the sinks/showers the hot water was truly near instant. Each unit was about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the one you featured in this video.
Same in Britain. It's because they run 220 line voltage
@@BGraves that guy knows what he is talking about.
Thats what I deal with at my work and its junk
@@macthemec what do you dislike about it? I loved it!
You can do this if you want to, but who wants to deal with having a billion of these in a home? It's ugly in a finished space and there is maintenance associated with each unit.
Very happy with our tankless. The maintenance is accomplished with $50 Amazon pump and a couple of gallons of white vinegar. Takes about 5 minutes to hook things up and then you let the pump run for 45 minutes. Long term costs are are less than $10 per year
The only tankless brand I’ve really used is Rinnai. I grew up with an old Rinnai and it lasted 15 years before I finally replaced it for my folks. Being a plumber myself and having installed these, I have no complaints with them. Tanks on the other hand I’ve been to countless service calls to houses that the company plumbed that had only been finished for three years. With the changes they are making to tank water heaters it seems it is drastically changing their life span for the worse. The basic manufacture warranty for the particular brand we installed was 6 years. The vast majority of those water heaters never lasted more than 8. I figure with the efficiency of the tankless and the fact it can handle demanding temperature rises fairly easily it’s a no brainer to go tankless. Recirc lines like he said will fix the issue of waiting for cold water. If money isn’t the driving factor but comfort is, I would far suggest the tankless. Specifically Rinnai’s integrated pump model, or their duo system for larger homes or applications. But hey that’s just me. Happy plumbing
Back when I was a plumber I installed quite a few of these. Back then they were kind of hard to find, kind of expensive and had a lot of cons vs pros imo. I made a nice niche for myself because I had lived in Korea for a few years and had not only experience with them before they made their way to the states but the ability to order them from korean suppliers since I was fluent in Korean. Many plumbing businesses didn't want to mess with them at the time in the US. Setting up and programming them was tricky, the filter in them got clogged easily and required some work-arounds and additional stuff sometimes. But in Maryland/DC area a lot of people building homes wanted them.
What I saw was the initial cost was high, energy savings were not that much. Installation could be expensive if you needed gas run, a vent installed, etc. If you had issues there was no drip pans or drains. If you had issues you might have a hard time finding parts or a company that will service and if they do they charge much more. They can be tricky to set but you do get lots of options on the display module but that requires a lot of the customer needing coaching if they are not diy or tech savvy. They do not send hot water as instantaneously as people believe they will.
The only pros that I could see was they are great for small living spaces that have no option for traditional waterheaters but that is arguable too since the clearances for tankless are more than for a small WH you could fit in a closet. Or a tankless might be good for places where they might be installed outdoors in year around warm climates.
Not sure how much they have changed in the last 15 years since I messed with them but considering the advancements regular waterheaters have made, I would stick with traditional myself.
I installed my tankless water heater myself in 1985. It is still serving me well today. I live in Pittsburgh Pa.which is not a warm weather city. This water heater has saved me thousands of dollars over the years. Not just in natural gas savings, but not having to replace the water heater every 10 to 12 years.
3 things are necessary for the efficienct operation of a tankless water heater.
1. Soft water, which allows the water to heat more quickly and also prevents calcium buildup in the water heater. I have never had to flush my water heater since 1985 and it’s still going strong.
2. A good water regulator which will provide a predictable flow rate which is necessary for the proper operation of the water heater.
3. A good whole house water filter which will prevent debris from clogging the internals of water heater. When street repairs are made to external water lines, it often results in a great amount of debris which will lodge in the water heater if a whole house water filter is not installed.
There is one more item which is a very good idea but not mandatory for proper operation, and that is to place a pressure gauge upstream and downstream of your regulator to let you know when your regulator fails. I’m a retired industrial piping designer and know the benefits of a properly installed tankless water heater.
I’ve spent less than one hundred dollars in part replacement since 1985.
@@MrJamespeyton Sounds like you could also get many years of life out of a conventional water heater with that kind of setup.
Worked as an energy auditor for the electric utility here in Hawaii . Part of my job involved investigating high bill complaints. With some of the highest electricity rates in the nation, I was often called to explain why customer's bills were still high after installation of a tankless water heater. Quite a few people were sold one tankless heater for the whole house expecting to realize savings. They never factored in heat loss from pipes. It takes a lot of electricity to heat water instantaneously, and then send it efficiently to a fixture on the other side of a house. They now add additional heaters closer to every point of use , however at added cost. The increased expense of additional heaters, maintenance, noise, and often wiring upgrades need to be factored in? Traditional tanked heaters have their own challenges. Best thing about tankless is the savings in space, and the lack of having to store a heavy, large volume of water inside a home. Tankless may have its use, however savings in dollars doesn't seem to be one of them.
If people are concerned for the price of heating hot water with electricity, they should be looking at heat pump hot water heaters (3x more energy for same price), or maybe solar (10x or so), not instantaneous electricity heaters - those barely offer any savings.
Excellent information. In Costa Rica they have point of use water heaters. But as you stay, one at each use point.
They need to be flush/cleaned yearly also.
In one trade magazine,
they did a test,
and a super high efficiency (94%?)
boiler had it's efficiency go down to something like 66%,
after not being flushed for 3 years.
So they may have been spending a ton also
because their water heater was scaled up.
i'll take a tank anyday.
89% efficiency for the life of the appliance,
and 40 gallons of hot water even without power.
And simple and cheap to replace.
@@michael-dm2bv what you and most everyone else fails to note is the most important factor being the kind of water in your area. If the water supply is "soft water" ....the need for "cleaning", "flushing", "descaling" ....is ZERO. This being said, the efficiency does NOT change. It stays at the original rating.
So if your opinion is poor about tankless water heaters, you need to qualify your opinion by stating that the water in your area is HARD WATER.
.
@@taxicamel No advantage to a tankless.
Tanked electric,
if i lose power i still have 40 gallons hot water to play with.
40 gallon gas?
i never run out of hot water,
regardless of electricity.
What does a tankless buy u?
A water heater with 50 parts
rather than a tanked heater with 5 parts?
Hard water?
Soft water?
Hilarious.
i am willing to bet most people have water
that is more hard than soft.
Look. Central CT.
We had a lightning storm a few years ago.
The next day one of our states biggest supply houses had lines out the door.
Tons of people with overly complicated tankless water heaters,
all had burnt out logic boards,
and the supply house had no replacement parts, because tankless heaters are always complicated,
and always evolving.
For what?
For 6% better efficiency?
Should i pray for soft water,
that way i can spend 3 times the cost,
for an overly complicated water heater,
just to save 100 dollars a year?
I first saw these tankless units when I was doing business in Europe in the mid 1980's. The typical home actually had several units. One small one for the bathroom to handle the shower, tub and sink and another in the kitchen. They were cute little things that fired up whenever you turned on the hot water. So, I put one in my house and it has worked great for over 11 years.
What make and model?
Pro tankless Vid, with stacks of tanks behind him. Perfect!
Excellent video...thanks Matt. When I was stationed in Chiangmai, Thailand, in 1968 we had tankless water heaters in the civilian complex we were renting. They were efficient, and during my year there repair service was never needed. With that memory in mind, when I built my latest new house nearly 50 years later I finally opted for a tankless system. No regrets at all. For me personally, the savings are legitimate. One of the routine blunders we all make with a conventional water heater is to turn on the hot water when only a quick rinsing of the hands or whatever is wanted. Seldom do we wait the half minute for the hot water to reach the faucet or for the lines to heat up to really deliver hot water. So, we deplete some of the tank's stored hot water unnecessarily, which means that cold water must "replenish" the tank. The tank then fires up for an extended time to reheat the stored water that was drawn off for no good reason. Pure waste. You would think we would all learn to give up on 20-second or more delays for hot water that we generally give up on, but we seldom give up our bad habits. If you keep this same bad habit with a tankless system, it will only fire up briefly before it goes back to sleep. Another poster complained about short starts & stops resulting in inefficient combustion and gas smell buildup, but never once have I experienced this. Sounds like a unit may have been malfunctioning. As for tank cleaning, this is simple for anyone with reasonable handyman skills. Once you buy a relatively inexpensive circulation pump the only cost is then for the 3-4 gallons of vinegar used for each flushing. Beats replacing a conventional water heater every 10-15 years, not to mention risking flooding when a tank ruptures when you are on vacation. When friends and family visit, having virtually unlimited hot water for each bathroom, the kitchen, and the laundry room is a very nice convenience.
What model did you get, please?
Larry- you make a good point on waste.
Why hasn't the usa gov't outlawed tanks. They stepped in and f****d up our washing machines. New machines can't clean at all.
Hey - my AOSmith water heater, when I bought it, was deemed most efficient and I have never ran out of hot water. I paid a nice penny for it in 2011, but compared to tankless at the time and install fees, was better bargain and still performing strong today! My water heater is a power vented unit with digital controls. Allows for radiant heat loop add on and remote controller. This was the investment choice I made.
As long as I have hot water I'm great. 22 years and my tankless going strong.
Hi. Alice how often do you flush yours?
I have the one in city house cleaned every year, and the other one hasn't been serviced at all, it's on well water, over 22 now.
What brand?
I'm from the UK and we use them a lot and I've never heard of flushing them. And my old home area had very hard water. Must be an American thing lol
@@aliceholbert1246 So I have relatively hard well water, having a tankless installed tomorrow, are you saying I may not need to plan to flush this system at all?
I know that you did this video several years ago, but maybe you could do an updated version of this and also talk about the potential problem of the limited increase in water temperature. I live in western PA and have a well. Ground water temps can be down in the low 50's most of the time. I've researched putting in tankless, but through the research I've done, temperature increases are typically only about 35 degrees. So starting out with 50 degree water and adding 35 degrees only gets the water temp up to about 85 degrees. With most people wanting a moderately warm shower at just around 105 degrees, the tankless heaters I have researched don't come close to even moderate. Seems I'd have to have at least 2 of these in line with each other to reach the temps my wife likes to shower at of around 110-115 degrees. Thanks for all the great videos. Love your show and all the great info you provide.
I rolled the dice on a Rinnai tankless water heater nearly 20 years ago ... a newer technology in this region at the time. It just 'died' earlier this week after all these years with zero problems! We LOVE it. My new Rinnai is going to be installed tomorrow afternoon.
good for yOU!
Ha, my tank water heater was just replaced with another one, last one was installed in 1996. It uses just 3 ccf a month. It sure beats buying a tankless for $2500
@@paulhunter9613 worse than that, paying to get it installed and upgrading your gas
I’ve had my tankless water heater since 1985 and it’s still performing well. I have never flushed the unit ever.
The secret to longevity and dependable service is that 3 things are necessary.
1. Soft water. This eliminates the need for annual flushing and enhances the efficiency of the water heater because soft water heats more quickly using less energy.
2. A good water regulator for a constant dependable flow rate. My water heater requires a 2.5 gpm flow rate for optimal efficiency.
3. A good whole house water filter to keep debris from clogging the internal heating chamber. This filter should be replaced at least twice a year, depending on your water usage.
To insure your water regulator is working properly, installing pressure gauges upstream and downstream of your water regulator is a good idea to let you know when it fails. My water regulator is set for 60 psig. I’ve spent less than $100 on parts since installed.
2 diaphragms for the gas regulator.
1 pilot light thermocouple
1 pilot light gas filter
I have NEVER had to flush the water heater due to my soft water unit.
@@paulhunter9613 I’ve had my tankless water heater since 1985 and it’s still going strong.
I live in Pittsburgh where the water supply is very cold in the winter. I would have had to replace at least 3 tank type water heaters by now. Save money on monthly natural gas bills too.
Dude, I love your editing job. Transitioning across the screen with you on both sides.
with that out of the way, good job on the info given out
Matt misses one key issue regarding performance: cycling at low flow rates. My previous home in Texas had two Rinnai natural gas tankless units, mounted on the exterior. If I wanted to take a warm, not hot, shower, as I would usually want to after a hot afternoon of yard work, the tankless unit was a big problem. When setting a shower to a medium warm temperature, the flow through the hot side is just a trickle. The Rinnai apparently has a minimum BTU on the burner, and it would shut off if the flow wasn't sufficient, blasting me with cold water. The only workaround I found was to open a tap on hot during my shower. This would never be an issue with a standard water heater or a hybrid (small tank) water heater.
Should of bought correct capacity and you want them indoors
1:01 $225 in PROPANE, 1:08 $19 a month in NATURAL GAS I love your videos and appreciate what I learn here.
Extremely helpful! Making a decision whether to go tankless. This video presented information that made my decision easy: sticking with conventional tank. As to longevity of the unit, at my age of 80 , the difference between 15 ands 20 years isn't top of my list!
BEST thing I did. Was go TANKLESS savings in gas alone was $20 a month easy. Get a tank less with sofrwater
And there is another "common-sense" reasoning to help make a decision .....AGE OF THE HOME OWNER.
.
Very informative! I like that you really try and discuss both sides of owning either option, and not like what many do, where they have a vested interest to make one option look better than the other.
Thanks Terry!
Love the little bit of extra put into the cinematography in this episode. Helps tell the story
Really though? Did it?
Solar hot water in Phoenix, never run out of hot water and it's crazy cheap to run. Even if you ran out of hot you just switch to the cold which is also hot 😁
Man in Europe have solar heaters and on demand
Sounds like August in Texas 😄😄
So move to Phoenix so the money I save on hot water can be spent on A/C year round? LOL
@@chrishuyler3580 Actually in the winter you don't need much if any heat or AC and the solar hot water still works great. What people pay for heating in the winter I feel costs more then the AC does in Phoenix.
Lol
Thank you for making this video. I was skeptical about changing my water heater to a tank less and now that I've seen your video, I going forward to a thankless water heater.
I purchased a Bosch tankless water heater 16 years ago. I have never done maintenance ( though I know I should), and only had to replace one minor part (related to the pilot valve I think). It’s great when you have company over, or someone in the family likes to take long, steamy showers.
It’s not a hot water heater. You don’t heat hot water. It’s a water heater.
Too funny...good catch. Though one could argue down here you are just about heating hot water. In the summer the ambient water temperature is pretty warm. I wouldn't even use the hot water for showering if it weren't a mixer valve. Anyway, I edited it; thanks for the catch.
Flight - If you don't heat hot water, how in the world do you get water to boil?
Flight - I suppose that would depend on what your definition of "hot" water is.
Very good point. I mean as long as we're getting technical. I thought this was somewhat humorous at first, but ole Flight seems to really care about this hot water thing. Anyway, Happy New Year to you both.
Thanks for that info. I didn't realize the annual or bi annual ramifications of tankless. Loved the production value on this video.
If you pay for the service it is costly. I bypassed a 6 year old tankless propane water heater for my mom. Repair and service was almost the cost of a 40 gal. new electric one. I may DYI it later.
Pretty good city water and a softener has me trouble and maintenance free for well over ten years now. Can't even remember how long ago, but I love it and my utility bills since I'm single and don't have to heat a tank 24 hours a day.
A cost breakdown (initial + operating) would be nice. If I have to upgrade my gas meter and run a 1" gas line, that is going to push out the payback period of a tankless system.
Great video, thank you. My tank just went out this week. I decided to spend the extra money on tankless heater since it was needing replaced anyway. This video gave me some comfort about my purchase.
I KNEW IT!!!
There is more than one Matt!
Multiplicity confirmed!
One benefit of the tank type is that in a power outage, natural disaster, disruption in utilities, you have a built store of potable water which you can easily access via the drain valve
Damn skippy -smart man.
@@franklinholbrook924 and with most tank type gas HWT you will still have hot water if power goes out most tankless have to have 110 power.
I was evaluating these back when you published this but just found your channel today.
At the time, it would have cost me about $3000 MORE to install the tankless. With two of us, the return was longer than I plan to be in the house. It wasn't worth it. Moving from the then-24-year-old 40-gallon tank that came with the house to a new 50-gallon tank, all our comfort needs have been met. While tankless might have helped with eventual resale, I do not think we'll be hurting to sell.
Wow, grunting while pushing that shopping cart. I'm convinced.
That's the first deterring argument; tank heaters can lead to grunting. Not to mention the sneaky mind association snuck in there: getting tank heater > pushing shopping cart > you become homeless.
I installed this type of hot water heater about 20 years ago. I'd never go back to a tank. It's not savings that I like it. I have enough hot water to fill my big jetted tub, run the shower at the same time without running out. I've had a lot of houseguest sand never ran out of hot water. My Ranii has yet to fail me!
Exactly. I've had a tankless unit for over 25 years....20 for the first and so far 5 years on the second. I have well water with a hit/miss water softener. I have never, ever flushed a unit. I was chatting with a couple different plumber friends about putting a tankless in my cabin to replace an ancient electric. Both responded...OMG NO!. I've run one long enough to know better.
I will say though that if you have a tankless that is a long run from some faucets you might not get what you need. If you are accustomed to running lots of hot water in different rooms at once, same. My original water heater strongly against using mixer faucets , they didn't keep a strong enough demand to keep the flow valve open.
@@mdoe37 Why would you want to heat hot water?
Someone had to say it, right?
@@anncoffman4448 Someone had to be stupid enough to use the term.
Gas, not electric though, right?
Am a week into researching replacing my tank with a tankless, and this video (plus your other one on condensing vs non-condensing) has been invaluable. And I appreciate you addressing the myth of “instant” hot water with a tankless, thus I’m now going down the gopher hole of looking up recirculating pumps, crossover valves, and flushing isolation kits. Much appreciated!
Same!!
Or just buy a few tiny "under-the-sink" electric water heaters. They cost less than $200 each. Install one in each bathroom and you do get instant hot water.
i got a conventional. sure it uses a pilot lite, but whent he power goes out, i sitll got hot water since gas is still in the lines XD
@m rapacki descale a normal tank one?
Sorry Matt - but the incentive we have in San Diego, CA, for getting a Tankless unit is the $500 rebate. Our water cost is HUGE out here as well, so the cost associated with water savings is also significant. Still love your videos and I'm always learning. Thanks.
This is a really great explanation of the difference between these units. I appreciate that it is presented in a non-biased way, presenting the pros and cons of each. I would also have included that switching to tankless involves some electrical work that also adds to the cost.
And is the electric goes out, so does the hot water with the tankless type. Keep in mind Californias rolling blackouts.
the tank type is also a convenient emergency water storage system.
the monthly savings, going tankless, will be eaten up and more by the plumber's annual visit. And even if that weren't the case, how many months for it to pay for itself, for both models, would be nice to know.
To qualify myself I was a licensed plumber for 35 years. If you are switching to tankless from tank, first add an electric circuit near the installation point because the tank didn't require one ($60-$150). Second replace the gas line all the way to the gas meter in 90 percent of installations (unless that place is real close to the gas meter). The reason: Tank style burned less than 50,000 btuh and tankless burns 200,000 btuh. This requires a larger gas line to deliver the proper amount of gas determined by the distance to the gas meter. Chart can be found in the Uniform Plumbing Code. Third replace the combustion waste vent from heater to above roof because: Oh, it's burning more gas. Chart can be found in the Uniform Plumbing Code. Conclusion: Starting with a higher price tag to begin with and the probable replacement of the gas line, combustion waste pipe and installation of an electric circuit I really don't see savings, especially if users of the system like long hot showers at 200,000 btuh. Also the comparisons are always based on the smallest tankless, if you have more than 2 baths you could be moving the gas consumption far north of that 200,000 btuh number!
webswabie 1/2" gas line needed for 199,000 btu. Navien tankless. With recerc pump built in. Nothing better. 240a. We install a shitload of them. Startup is costly.
Absolutely true!
And, you must know some really cheap electricians. ;-) In my area, it's a minimum $150 for the call out. The cost of adding that circuit will most likely be closer to $500 than $100.
Ditto on the upsized gas line feed and the flue. With so many homes being two story and the flue vent running through a limited size, no access chase spanning both stories to the roof, one is looking at a $500 to $1,000 cost for the vent upgrade.
webswabie thank you
@@tharais theres no need for a tankless to be on it's own circuit. They pull a maximum of 5 amps.
@@tharais and theres a reason sidewall termination exists for the flue. Added on to it, most tankless installs do not require a full dedicated upsized gas line.
I love the editing on this video. Especially the part towards the end where you are walking into the shot while still walking out of it.
Thanks
I installed a tiny tankless electric water heater in our house. It only supplies about a gallon per minute, but that is perfectly fine with a low flow shower head. Cost me less than $200! It is about 12" x 6" x 4". It is sold as an instant-on point-of-use water heater, but it works fine for our whole house since we never have a hot water using appliance on at the same time we use the one shower. It costs me nothing to run, because of our solar net-metering.
My experience with tankless is that the labyrinth needs cleaning, especially if you live in Florida. Unless you have a water softener. The old tanks need a flushing but it's a lot easier, hook up a hose and flush. I also know the electric ones need a 50 amp dedicated service. I think the maintenance cost has to be rolled into the equation, esp if you're hiring a plumber once a year. !
Depending on the size of the unit can go all the way up to 150 amp service for 5+ bathroom homes
I enjoyed your videos - thank you! Another factor regarding savings or cost is the price of water. I have tankless water heater with a built in circulating pump of which saves on cost of my water bill.
Thanks Matt. This was EXTREMELY helpful as I’m about to do a complete house remodel.
Thank you for clearing up this explanation and making my decision much easier.
He fooled you son
The water heater that came with my brand new house, lasted only 8 years, before rusting through, and leaking. I put in an electric tankless unit, and I love it!! Much smaller than the gas unit, and fits in a small space un my laundry room, and I converted the rest of the space into shelves :)
Did you upgrade your service? Because tankless electric that works takes a 150A breaker.
@@atodaso1668 I've got 200A service. I hate to be the one to say atodaso... but you know what? Atodaso. A fuckin atodaso! 😂😂😂😂😂😂love it
With our 80 gal electric tank we've been able to have hot water up to 3 days during blackouts. It's one of the things keeping me from going tankless.
If you had a black out how would you have hot water?
@@scottholman6209 with an 80 Gal tank it stays warm as long as you don't use it too much which brings in cold water.
@@scottholman6209 when do you really need hot water
Great info Matt. If you are a single person or couple and don't use much hot water, tank less is the way to go.
Great video 👍 I have a 16 year old tankless heater. Flush it once a year myself! Just as easy as changing the batteries in the smoke detectors!
I HAVE HAD A TANKLESS HEATER FOR 20 YEARS NOW, HAVE NEVER FLUSHED IT. IT WORKS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This was recommended to me at 2AM... I don't regret it
😂
Good video. Nice quality.
Installed a tankless heater. LOVED it. They are sold on savings, but true, they don't save a lot monthly. In fact, you may use the same or more gas because if you have a tankless, you will tend to use more. I did. Especially since you can take a shower for a long time...such as having company in there with you.
Myth 2... yeh, most of us know it's not instant.
Myth 3... well, a friend who owns a plumbing company installed one many years ago. They have 7 kids. He wanted to test it and see how long it would last with ZERO maintenance. It's still going strong after 10 years. Unbelievable. I wouldn't recommend that, but the maintenance on a tankless is not the pain they make it out to be.
Now, the initial cost is significant. If you hire it done, you will never recoup that cost. I installed myself. Wasn't too tough. But I've had plumbing experience somewhat. Plus I saved the huge cost because I installed when the tax deduction was given up to half the install cost way back when.
All that said, it was great. I didn't maintain it but every couple years. I also didn't buy it for cost savings. I wanted hot water forever. And I could run my shower and a kitchen faucet 24 hours without running out. Period. (Yes, it was in a northern climate where many local plumbers said "It won't work".)
Doug Fresh i
Using mine in Alaska for domestic hot water and hydronic heating. No savings in the winter compared to an old tank and boiler, but in the summer, the modulated flame and electronic temperature control cut my fuel costs way down. The coaxial vent pipe also helps since I don't need to bring in fresh - but cold - outside air for combustion.
It's absolutely fantastic and I don't understand why tanks are still even a thing anymore.
Nice. The only reason tank type heaters still sell millions is cost. Period.
Eventually tankless will dominate the market. New homes will be built with tankless in design so that they are not so expensive to retrofit.
Doug Fresh I was going the tankless way but as I kept purchasing the required parts the cost was astronomical. I decided to go with a gas power vent that is electronically controlled with no standing pilot light. I also purchased the warranty that gives me total replacement until 2025. I did install it myself and used 2” pvc to vent the unit out of the laundry room via a window. I replaced the glass with plywood and sealed it off from the elements. I have a old iron tub that’s very deep and I can sit in the tub for hours and still have scalding hot water readily available.
This unit is a option for people who don’t have the funds for a tankless yet can get the benefits of one for a lot less money. But as you and I know that doing the install yourself saved us big money still for the price I would take the same route again.
Thanks for your input on the tankless and I hope that both of our experiences are able to help someone with their decision.
Good points. Mainly, the goal is that each installation provides the hot water needed. If we accomplish that, within our budget and operating costs, we've succeeded.
Not a fan of extended warranties. However, knowing the failure rate of tank type heaters today, might be good. Not to mention those electronic ignitions are pricey.
Also, retrofitting a house with the power vent or tankless heaters can't always be done. Good Luck!
Pretty sure this was the first video that introduced me to Matt way back when!
I live by myself and a I have a gas tank heater, it's likely due for replacement in the next few years and I was honestly surprised that tankless heaters are a fair bit more efficient. I don't use much hot water living alone and I'm wondering that if I'm not constantly using my hot water then I think I'm just wasting gas to heat a tank that I may only use 25-50% of it's capacity within 1 duty cycle. Not to mention my basement is 100 years old and not the most insulated. I might seriously consider going tankless with my next replacement. The lifespan is also a nice bonus to boot! Ty for the helpful info!
I replaced a tankless unit around 2010, that unit had been converted from coal gas to natural gas in 1966, so probably more than 50 years of operation. My problem was if there was any pressure the water ran cold so I was graduly running the water at lower pressure until I decided to replace it.
Install the tankless water heater inside a garage or other inside space to keep it from freezing in the winter
@@AnX8765 if it's gas you had hot water. Electric is a different issue. I would never buy an electric tankless. They use too much electric when the rates are higher. You need 120 amps of electric for an average home. You can buy 80 amp units but the water won't be as hot as a 120 amp model. 30 amp units are only for sinks. We had an instant hot water heater but ours had a stone lined tank. That's what they used in the early fifties. Our water softener matched the water heater. It too was stone lined. It also used table salt. You had to buy 2 twenty five pound bags. Well back to the water heater. There was a coil inside the heater and after 20 years the coil needed replaced. It was made of copper and with brass fittings. The gas flame went up the center of the coil you can see the flame if you removed the cover. You had instant hot water when it was running. The water in the tank could stay hot for hours before the water needed reheated. I guess the water cycled though the tank I was too young to ask my dad how the tank worked all I knew we always had hot water.
NOTE: My parents got a Bosch tankless about 8 years ago and they found that the system has settings for minimum draw on the hot water line to trigger the firing of the heater, but regardless of the sensitivity settings, it sill would not kick on when it was supposed to. Maybe 5 years later (when this video was created) they're made better, but I'm still skeptical.
I put in a navian natural gas tankless about 5 years ago. It was the best they had at the time. My gas usage went from 15 to 22 doen to 5 to 7with my total cost about 15 years for pay back. However should last at least that long and it works flawlessly. Can run a shower, do dishes and laundry at the same time. With a water softener and the way it vents the maintenance is near 0. Love it.
Tankless’s are good for small homes and condos where there’s only one or two people and they pay their own water bill.
NEVER!!! put a tankless in a rental unit (like a 3 family etc..) you pay the water bill and yes they usually pay the fuel- but! when it comes to someone standing in the shower for an hour a day... water bill wins every time!
Also you can’t put a “instant hot” recirculating system on a tankless... not without modifying it to have a storage tank to circulate the water with... most tankless work on flow and a domestic recirculating pump won’t get it to fire, and even if it could- you’d be wasting fuel.
And I don’t care why anyone tells you- if you have a big family with multiple bathrooms you WILL feel a temperature change when you’re in the shower and other hot water fixtures are being used on and off.
Tankless are good for small homes, condos, and mobile homes and only if owner occupied... otherwise do you self a favor and stick with a tank... oh and if you are renting a one bedroom to someone- a 30 gallon is PLENTY!
Your paying for it!
Sincerely- a licensed plumber 🧐
Good insight, thnkx for your info
On rentals, the tenants pay the utilities so it’s a non-issue, and it’s a plus knowing the hot water lasts longer, and the the tank will live longer.
@@oakjim206 Not always. Consider a rental that's on well and septic. The luxury of endless hot water leads to hour long showers... with the resultant overloaded septic bed and potentially a dry well. Not good. Also, many leases include water, tenant pays gas, electricity and phone/internet/cable.
Matt, time to revisit this video. If you're building a 100 year house, it makes sense to think about the cost of energy, and possibly water, going forward.
You're wrong on the recirc pump being the only way to get instant hot water. As you later point out, the tankless heaters can go pretty much anywhere so putting them next to the hot water taps makes sense. You don't waste heat recirculating water to reheat it and you don't wait for the cold water to flush.
You can also install a water softener so the annual maintenance issue goes away as well. Your laundry is cleaner to boot.
Good point. Regarding the placement of the tankless water heater, it's important to remember that some tankless are gas powered, and those consume oxygen hence cannot be installed wherever.
Have to respect a guy that isn't afraid to point out the drawbacks of a system he actually uses
In the northeast the savings on using a tankless water heater for home heating is significant. When i switched from oil to gas in 2016 my heating/hot water bill went down about 40%. Some of that was because natural gas is slightly cheaper than oil and much less volatile but the savings really makes a difference. If you were using oil, you needed a maintenance contract on your heating system anyway, since oil burns very dirty compared to gas. The maintenance contract on the tankless heater is less and includes a yearly flush. It was an expensive proposition since it included removing the 30 year old oil fired boiler and oil tank but definitely worth it.
Love my tankless. Have water softener.
Did flushing myself on tankless in my rental units. Easy to diy with 5 gal pail , two short garden hoses, a sump pump and 5 gallons of white vinegar.
Is flushing a tankless harder or about the same as flushing a tank?
Several years ago I decided to replace my tank type natural gas water heater before it failed. It was 12 years old and several of my neighbors had theirs fail. It was going to cost at least an additional $1,000 to go tankless because it was a retrofit.
In this house, the only gas appliance that is used during the summer is the water heater. My gas bill runs about $15 per month those months. Half of that is account/meter costs and taxes. Matt is correct. The gas use differential is slight. There was no way I could ever get those extra costs recouped. Plus I like the idea of having the possibility of a 50 gallon emergency water supply on hand. And my tank style heater can run even during a power failure.
Mine sits in a relatively warm insulated attached garage adjacent to the furnace. This area has very soft water naturally. Forgot that one of the things failing on the builder grade water heater I replaced was the deteriorating plastic intake pipe. The slime/muck was clogging the clothes washer's hot water valve screen. I had drained the unit several times and there was little sediment each time. While I was at it, I went from a 40 gallon to a 50 gallon fast recovery unit. Works great. Never run out of hot water. But then, I don't fill a swimming pool sized tub either.
At 5¢ per cubic metre, how much will you save by installing a $200 recirculation pump that requires an electrical outlet under the sink?
Edit: 50¢ per cubic metre
I checked my most recent bill. And like your pricing structure our annual sewer charges are based on water use during some of the winter months. My two month bill for actual sewer use is just under $6 and actual water use is just over $6. The other $130 are fixed costs. Water and sewer use costs combined are about one half cent a gallon, if I calculated correctly. Based on my costs, your worst case use is 160 gallons monthly or, for simplicity sake, $1. Your break even on the $200 pump would be 200 months or nearly 17 years. The pumps cost money to operate. They don't last forever. May require some maintenance, clean screens etc. And introduce several more potential leak points. And if it hasn't been scheduled to run when you need it, and you have to run water yourself, you missed a payback. Also, if there are multiple people running water in various parts of the house through the day, the run to the MB bath likely requires less water wasted to get to hot than the first morning shower. I have always been intrigued by them, but considered it a luxury and not a way to save money. Even with the pump in place, you do waste several cups of water each time. In the past, there was a type that had a low voltage button that one pressed to activate the pump to run until it sensed hot water at your use/button site. At least you would avoid the cost of running the pump for no reason hours a day. But better have a good memory and have hit the button before showering. (I also don't believe the pumps save much of the cost to heat the dumped water, as the cooled off water gets recirculated into the water heater and has to be heated again.)
(You can always capture the cold waste water in a bucket and use it to water plants, or, I suppose, flush the toilet or fill the clothes washer. But that takes dedication or a true drought crisis.)
Just want to say, unless you have a generator, modern gas fired water heaters don't run during a power outage.
Mine was installed in late 2014 and it isn't connected to electricity. And I just checked on a big box store's website, they continue to sell natural gas water heaters that don't use external electric power.
Just convinced me to buy tankless. Thanks for the video!
I think this article sold me on a tankless unit. Thank you.
Super great video!! I have an "old technology" (no electronics) Bosch 125NG and I love it!! If I could find another one for my 2nd unit I would take it in a second!! About 10 years usage so far, zero trouble!! About 1/2 the gas of my old tank type!! All the hot water you want/ need!!
To me the "no savings argument is the myth" I installed a Bosch 660 outdoor unit 7 years ago. My tank failed at about 6 years of service and I wanted to get the heater out of my garage. My main concern was more space in garage and unlimited hotwater with scant hope of reduced gas bills. The tankless delivered on my main concerns an shocked my with how much it reduced my summer gas bills.
When I worked for a dairy I helped install 2 of these tankless water heaters, here's the crazy thing 1 of those tankless is far more efficient then 6 tank water heaters going at once.
Thank you for doing this video I just bought a house where the tancos water heater I've never had one before now I know a little bit more than I did thank you again
Thankless that I've used fluctuates between hot and cold as you use it. It's hard to get a consistent temperature over the time it's being used especially if you like fairly hot water!
We are going tankless on our build however, if a tank is maintained as specified by a manufacturer it will last for 20-30 years as well. Most people don’t empty the tank once a year and check their anode rod. If a flush is conducted regularly and the anode rod replaced when necessary, they will last a long long time. Great video and thanks for your wisdom, as always!
He doesn't take into the high initial cost to install a tankless hot water heater (dedicated gas line, high velocity gas meter and brass connections and condensate line) easily in excess of 3000 dollars and not appropriate for extremely cold northern climates. Many cases of failure. I have solar hot water with a traditional tank heater. Flush biannually and install a whole house filter at the meter and you will get long life out of your system.
tommydjohnsonjr ... 20-30 years ... more like 10-15... I am a Journeyman Plumber and I absolutely know... peace ✌️
Well then, please explain why the tank style water heaters in my two homes are still going strong. One is currently 20 years old, and the other is 45 years old. And neither has had the amount of maintenance it should have.
Jim Price ... Manufacturers build in failure these days ... I have been to Bradford White 3 times... AO Smith 2 times and American once... they build them for replacement not longevity... sucks but true... peace ✌️
Michael Bala i hung a 500$ tankless on the exterior of my house. It vents directly to the air and has a short run to my propane tank. It was very cheap to install.
How about talking about hybrid systems, where you combine a "low" temp tank unit to supply individually placed small electric and gas tankless units that are placed wherever hot water is needed.
My tankless unit is over 20 years old. Only had to flush it once in that time city water here is very good. Only issue has the Cottrell board go out about 5 years ago. Replaced that. No worry about the tank leaking.
I have a "Paloma #6" made in Nagoya, Japan that I bought for my recreational property in 1988. It still works, and it spent its first 6 years hanging off a tree to supply hot water for my "al fresco" shower before the cottage got built. The only maintenance was replace an insulated wire on the piezo ignition wire because I forgot to check for a squirrel nest before firing it up one spring. It caught fire but but was easily fixable. I don't know about the new equipment that is available now but my little gem still provides a reliable stream of water.
As an electrician I have increased the whole electric service for the house to 200A for many customers who want a tankless water heater. They did not want to install water restrictors on the water line so that they could take a real shower instead of a wimpy one. Before you install a triple unit remember it may require 96 amps alone for the tankless. A tank type uses only 18.75 amps but for a lot longer. Be sure you have an extra 77 amps of electric before you spend a lot of money to change your service.
electric? why would you use electric, or is that for a gas one needing that much power?
@@MrMichaelBCurtis Some people don't have gas available in their area. Gas tank or tankless is much more economical.
@@hankkline7300 ah yeah and I just heard that CA is banning natural gas? Hard to believe the most environmentally friendly energy storage is being banned.
If you have to go electric, consider a heat pump water heater.
Heat pump water heaters are fine if you can afford the additional cost, it will take a long time to recover the extra expense. I went for 20 years with a heat recovery unit on my air conditioner/ heat pump. I never even turned my 50 gallon water heater breaker on. The new heat pumps don't put out enough waste heat to make this option effective.@@roger1818
I have had the same tankless water heater for over 35 years.
I have saved not only at least 20% but I would have had to replace the water heater at least twice with a tank type.
Three things are crucial for the successful operation of a tankless water heater.
1. Soft water
2. A good functioning water regulator.
3. A good whole house water filter.
I have never had to flush my water heater because of the water softener.
The regulator provides a predictable flow rate due to a constant pressure.
The water filter protects the water heater from debris entering the water heater after outages when the water is restored. The water heater is still going strong after 35 years.
Yeah, that business with the water pressure regulator is important, especially where I live, as the water main pressure is around 100 psi and can spike to 140 psi. That's enough to crack plastic-body valves in dishwashers, washing machines and irrigation systems. Most people in that situation are unaware of failed regulators until it is too late. One should check the pressure regularly or install a pressure alarm. Regulators can be rebuilt in-place with kits that are readily available, but they seem to last only about 15 years between rebuilds.
Electric hot water tank in my house was installed in 1986. still works great!
Hey. Matt another benefit is CO2 output. A tankless WH is about 93% to 95% efficient while tank unit is 60 to 65% efficient saving on CO2 output. The biggest drawback to a tankless WH is cost. I’ve been quoted $3500 to $4000 for a 199,000 BTU system installed. My last gas WH installed 1.5 years ago was $1000. Thanks. Keep up the good work.
One of my neighbors has tankless. With the recent weather, his pipes froze and without electricity, they failed him. I am not an expert nor a plumber so I don’t know the technical workings of a tankless, but my pipes didn’t freeze and my gas heated tanks worked great without power for many days. Blessed....
I thought there are gas tankless water heaters. Wouldn't the same thing have happened to your neighbor had he had an electric water heater as well?
Fake news
@@electricaf365 😂
I don't know if things like that exist in the US but here in Germany, we use a combination of those two systems.
You can add a tank to your tankless unit to get a more stable temperature and the possibilty of more than one outlet using hot water at the same time.
The tank works as kind of a buffer for hot water.
I have a Navien condensing combination unit as you described. It has three stainless heat exchangers and I presume stainless addresses the corrosion inherent in heat exchangers with mineral build up as a consequence. Maintenance seems to be flushing with descaling solution or vinegar to remove scale build up.
i like this idea a lot, it only makes sense to heat room temperature water rather than cold water from the ground.
You. An piggy back 2 normal water heaters say 40 gallons and have almost limitless hot water, you do need more space and can control temps on each tank also increases life of both tanks.
Average Ground water is 52 degrees. It makes sense in the summer when the auxiliary tank is removing heat from within your house but in the winter it would be putting an additional load on your furnace.
It's here but rare. The tank takes away the hot cold sandwich and let's u use minimal flows of hot water while maintaining temperature. These set ups are expensive and generally for most homes a normal hot water tank will provide more than enough hot water. It's $800 for a water heater here and $300 to install it. A tankless is minimum $2000 by the time your done. Add to that another tank and the costs are very high. Only worth it if u need lots of hot water for showering or u have a jecuzi tub to fill.
Matt, we love your channel, but I have one correction to make. The instantaneous hot water heater was not invented in Europe or Japan; it was invented in our hometown of Pittsburgh! As far as I know, the Ruud water heater was the first. We had one in our house and as a young man, I marvelled at the look, sound, quality and performance of this cast iron and copper beast.
I like the Intellihot brand. That sweet stainless steel heat exchanger is a beast and resists scale like no other.
Fantastic video, with content as well presented like this your channel is going to fly high!
I loved the walk in effects in the middle of the video. It also shows you guys are thinking about what the video will look like before recording as opposed to just pressing the record button and rolling freestyle.
Thanks for the explanation. This a hugely popular method in the UK, as gas is super common in houses and tower blocks built before the 2000's. We refer to them as gas boilers and Bosch-Worcester are the most popular brand this side of the world.
Cheers.
I asked my dad who lives in London how often he flushes his heater (~30 years old) he looked confused, sneered then shrugged.
Why wouldn't a commercial be well produced?
what he didn't mention was that you have to use 3/4 inch gas pipe and you have to run a tank only line. from a tee at the meter then straight to the unit.
Ryan Q
It's been working for 30 years, he's doing it right.
Decent video got a little bit of a chuckle out of the beginning keep up the good work ...
Awesome video!! Thanks for the useful info!! Have a blessed day!!
My grandma had a gas water heater in her house. The entire time I lived with her I never remember having any issues with it as far as maintenance. When her house burned down we were able to save the old one and a friend of ours put it in his moms house and it still works fine today. I checked the date on it and it was built in 1986 when the house was built. Her new house has electric water heater and we will see how long it last.
I appreciate this video showing pros and cons. My house has no gas so I was looking at an electric tankless. I was looking at $600 or more for the wiring upgrade required. That and some other reasons made me pass on tankless for now. Maybe in the future though.
I’d highly recommend you check out the heat pump water heater‘s. Rheem is now on their fourth or fifth generation and they’re very efficient. Use half the electricity of a standard electric tank. I put a generation one in a house seven years ago and it is still going strong.
I'll look into it. Thanks.
They seem like a no brainer for anyone who has electric hot water heater and runs a dehumidifier in the same area as their water heater.
SyberPrepper .... I am a Journeyman Plumber and DO NOT go electric tankless... you need 150 amps almost another complete panel.... go tank type and I recommend Bradford White. Peace ✌️
Agree on the heat pump electric tank water heater. If you ever look into going solar, it will reduce your maximum electrical load at any given time of day as well. Electric tankless water heaters are beasts for the short time that they run and can require a massive power draw. As the other commenter suggested, if you're looking for a whole-house model, you may negate any savings due to the possibility of needing to upgrade your electrical circuits just to run it in the first place.
Let me add you did get the positive aspects perfect... I admire your style, I just thought there were a few very important things missing.
Thx
@ R Rybiczki,
🔵 Since you mention it, feel like sharing those 'Cons'?...Or are you just going to keep us all in suspense?
Installation is double the cost you need a larger gas line and a electric receptacle and a place to drain condensate and appropriate vent system
Good video. I'm surprised you didn't bring up replacing heating elements.
Another benefit of the tankless is you can mount it higher on the wall to avoid any basement flooding issues. In houses build in terrible locations with high ground water levels, having this peace of mind has no set dollar value. And if you are not replacing the tank-less every 10 years, that is another headache some homeowners don't want to deal with, along with having to do maintenance with draining a tank/filling it back up every year or replacing anode rods. Especially with 100 other things on the maintenance list, having something that requires half the time to maintain is pretty attractive.
I had a nat.gas 40 gal tank. Had it for 44 years and it did not need to be replaced ... I removed the thermocouple, used a bit of sandpaper on the thermocouple and put the same unit back in and it worked again....I never changed the anode or never ever drained it and it continued to work just fine.(but was changed out because plumbers were freaking out that it was still original equipment) so looked into tankless and inquired at multiple places about it....the places said the tankless were ripped out after a year for a tank type. People did not like them. So, I went with a tank electric this time(as I needed a gas fitter to hook up the gas unit@$100.) I did disassemble the gas hotwater tank that was in there originally, and could have gone to 60 years on that tank easy. There was no rust or weak spots in the tank.
My electric tank maybe will last 10 years. They are making them cheaper. Am sad. Oh well.
for $700 bucks, you can find electric water heaters with 316L stainless tanks and a lifetime warranty. For a gas tanked water heater with a stainless tank, you're looking at a commercial unit that starts at 3 grand. So you're not doomed if you want a good electric water heater.
I would not use electric for anything because it drives your electric bill up too much. I have had a all electric bldg in the past and while it might have seemed alright from the start when winter came especially we discovered that gas was much cheaper and would have been a better choice. We didn't have one but good luck hope it works out for you, just wanted to tell you my electric vs gas nightmare.
Great video.
Hi from the U.K., if you go for “tankless” or as we call them “Combi boilers”, the average age before they need replacing is about 15 years or so. At least here in the U.K. that is. They also don’t work with solar P.V. Very well.
If you have a tank you can heat the water for pretty much free 9 months of the year if you use solar P.V. So that’s a huge saving of energy be it gas, oil or electric heated tank. I have both systems in my properties and both have there good and bad points. For my house I use a tank, but for my holiday let I use a Combi as guests want lots of hot water without running out. It is more expensive to run though.
We do have 'combi' tank here in the US but they operate differently than a tank-less water heater. Over here combi tanks are used in conjunction with a hydronic heating system, such as hot water boilers.
Good Points on the Solar effect on both type systems! Is that you in your photo?
Solar energy.... Wind energy.... Storage batteries.... Yes.... The camping instant hot water versions are fine for solar since they have internal batteries which could be recharged, but I doubt any of the others types of instant hot water heaters would be a good idea. Maybe a gas version with a Piezo ignition system.
If you are using wind or solar, than a tank system with a 12 volt element plugged into your water tank is probably a better way to go. Extra power above what your storage batteries can hold would go into heating your hot water. At least, that is the theory...
there isnt that much solar power available for residential use in the US. i live in Philly, and we all are on nuclear power.
Lee Curran ii
I have a tankless with a built in circulator and love it. I just had it put in when we built the house.
Hey! Thank you for the information on the water heaters 🤗 . Do you have one on HVC heat pumps as well ?
You forgot to mention the government rebates when installing the energy efficient systems. Mine was $750 for the unit
and $150 for each zone valve.
@Francis Kowalski, what’s a zone valve?
What's a zone value? (1)
Francis, you've had a year to answer about this zone valve thing and you've failed us all. Lazy ass.
... about 15 years ago people where i live began putting tankless systems hoping to save on the high cost of electricity. Most were electric powered and sometimes required upgraded, dedicated circuits. They paid the higher initial cost of the system as well as installation. They never realized the reduction in electric bill. Vendors began telling them to install the tankless units nearer the point of use to maximize heating efficiency requiring them to install a unit at every spicket at even more cost. I can tell you they weren't happy as they never saved the money they hoped for. Only thing i saw was a saving in space for those whose water heaters were installed inside. I don't know if technology has improved or if propane ones saved money. I worked as an energy auditor for the local electric company and was often called out to explain why their bill never went down. Their literature and sales pitch made sense, however the reality was quite different.
I agree only to the point of how tankless and electrical bills changed for the worse. Fifteen years ago is not today and in some areas like NYC with some of the highest electrical costs, its a foregone conclusion not to use electrically heated tankless units. Perhaps the example you pointed to wasn't advised by a professional contractor that analyzed the home system and made a professional assessment. I have a newly installed natural gas condensing tankless unit, the largest available for a two family home. I saw immediate savings on the first gas bill and still see savings every month.
F Dryer ..the island i live on has the highest electric rates in the nation with gas not being much less. Customers had high expectations which turned out not to be the reality. I personally invested a little more money and installed solar. With tax credits, and the cost of solar down, it was the wiser thing to do given we have sun most of the year. Some contractors may do a more comprehensive energy analysis now, however they didn't then.
If you are running electric tankless that likely means you don't have gas , like I don't. I have electric tankless, for 25 years. The very slight increase in electric usage , almost imperceptable. It is way offset by not having to run my oil boiler during the summer! The electric stove, AC, or electric dryer more affects my bill then the tankless ever will, which only runs when you're taking a shower doing the dishes or laundry, likely less than 30-60 minutes a day tops . My annual energy cost went down after installing tankless, since I did not have to pay for oil for a few months. Not a huge amount but enough to notice. so given the choice between electric tankless or an electric tank , I will take electric tankless any day of the week
I'm German and never understood when American movies made references to running out of hot water. Then, in 1984, I moved from Germany to the USA and it did not take long for me to understand :-)
As a home inspector, I see all of these styles of hot water heaters. People with tankless hot water heaters have a tendency to use more hot water off-setting the savings (This is a style issue), with higher water consumption. One failure method for tankless hot water heaters that needs to be mentioned is that they need to be installed with "Surge Protection". I frequently see units that have been electrically damaged from lightning strikes. The typical life expectancy of the units is twelve to sixteen-years. The typical life expectancy of a gas hot water heater is twenty to twenty-four-years.
I agree
It most certainly makes a difference!
It took about 2 years for my heater to pay for itself with the savings. It blew my mind at how much this saved!
The tank it replaced did have a pilot light, so that alone was a HUGE savings. I could see that replacing a tank without a pilot light would narrow that savings margin, but these tanks are definitely a savings.
The cost of running a pilot is negligible
@@JR1300r I seriously doubt the pilot light was the reason. It has to do with the fact that there used to be a huge tank, constantly being heated. Now there's a small unit, hanging on the wall, doing nothing until needed.
To me, there's no reason to have a tank heater anymore, they're obsolete...
One of the negative things people bring up is that you have to descale them once a year, but by descaling them, they last longer than a tank, because they stay clean!
After a few years of use, a water heater tank builds up a lot of guck and junk, junk that cannot be cleaned out. I've heard that a 5 year old tank can accumulate over a gallon or more of guck!
With a tankless heater, that guck is cleaned out every time it's descaled.
Lastly, the old prohibitive comparison cost of a tankless water heater has narrowed to the point, it's not a huge factor.
If a tank is old and needs replaced, it's crazy not to upgrade it to tankless nowadays.
have been plumber for over 20yrs. install a tankless water heater in my house nov 17' navien npe 240a. family of 5 with 3 teenage kids. have had one problem on 2nd floor when shower is used there is a pressure drop when the other 2 showers are being used. i did have pressure drop when i had tank type tank also. if you are a person that likes saved on gas when tankless is the way to go. they do make very ultra high efficient tank water heaters out there if you like have 75 gallons on hand. however i have seen a lot of heaters leak on the floor and make big mess all over he basement area or into the finished area. yes a tankless water heater does cost more to install then a standard tank. yes there is maintenance to do on a tanklees water heater but you should do maintenance on tank types also. if people out there think you should not go maintenance on a tank type you are wrong. maintenance helps both style tanks last a hole lot longer. and for saving i'm saving 20-25% per month during the non-heating months here in michigan. is tankless the best answer for every one out, no. however you have to make your best decision for your home. base on the set up of the tanklees heater you will have to wait for the hot to come the tap or you can install return line to the far point of the house. people need to get all the info on tanklees heaters and the all the options with them to make a good decision.
well said...except a 20 yr. plumber should know it's not a pressure problem...it's a volume problem (under-sized piping) unless you have street pressure under say....30 lbs....like I do. You can have 100 lbs pushing...but if it's going through a pin hole...yer not gunna get much water.
21 years ago I had a tankless water heater installed it was a Bosch Aquastar you do save money on gas because you don't have to heat water when you're not using it, but I love that until it broke down 1 time in 21 years I still love and appreciate the tankless water heater that has been around a lot longer than people think they are wonderful you never run out of water, after my husband who at the time did not know how to install one came home and so how incredibly easy it was to install he said he would do the next one I think 21 years is a very good the length of time only costing me $629 21 years ago and they're really not much more now, especially if you have someone with a license who knows how to put them in and is a friend who installs cheaper love my tankless!!! Don't be afraid to try something new just make sure they install it right
@@debbiemiller9219 Nice to hear someone is having good luck with their tankless. Once you have one, properly plumbed (correct size gas line and stainless steel vent) it's a no brainer to replace it. Some floor plans are just not cost efficient to increase the gas line and a new vent...some are.
One of my many clients buys and remodels houses on a volume basis. 50 houses last year and 60 in 2017. In the area he shops houses the water is prolly above average in hardness so I have replaced several in the Arco stations he's in partners with and I had to call the manufacturer on several that were still under warranty.(very large hot water demand) Most of the houses he buys with tankless are eventually replaced with tank type. (a good portion of the houses are rented out. Does't want the phone calls). We are partners in a beach front house on the Balboa peninsula and it has an outdoor tankless due to space shortage. It's about 6 years old and works great. Can't believe the salty air hasn't devoured it yet... although... the problems are usually from within. We use the tap water to make coffee because it tastes fine and low hardness. Thx for the "civil" reply.
What is your incoming PSI. I had 118. Nothing ever hammered but at 70 PSI it does. I think the ideal is around 90 PSI. I need to replace that damn pressure reducer as soon as I find one that will do 90 PSI.
100% correct Mike. I designed and installed my own system for under $1000. I'm not a plumber but I can read code manuals to know how to exceed code requirements for water and gas (had to upsize the gas lines, but was easy enough.
I bought a condensing Rinnai RU98iN from Costco for $699, Taco circulator pump at supplyhouse.com, and a 12 gallon electric water heater (element and thermostat removed) at Lowes. I have tankless set to override to output and do 140F water (super hot), and a taco pump circulating it into a 12 gallon tank. So the tankless' job is solely to keep the tank at 140F. Tank system holds 140F water, and then the whole house draws out of that 140F water tank via a tempering valve set to 120. New cold water coming into the system enters at a T between the water tank and the tankless cold draw. So when taco pump is running, most/all incoming cold water goes first pass through the tankless, and then into the 12 gallon tank. Otherwise it flows the other way directly into the tank. I have a ESP8266 reading a hall effect flow meter on the cold line, and a Type K thermocouple on the tank. When cold water flows into the system, the circulator pump is turned on, keeping a 140F loop moving water through the tankless. When cold water isn't flowing into the system, its all about keeping the 12 gallon tank hot. On at 135F off at 138F.
Granted, I will agree this was done for luxury and not for economy, even though it is more efficient than what it replaced. This replaced two old Rheem 50 gallon natural gas tank WHs from 1996. My natural gas bill is now 1/3 what those old worn out tanks cost per month. With a 60 gallon jacuzzi tub in the master bath, and all other bedrooms having their own bath, and two other half baths, and hot/cold taps on the outside, sorry wasn't going to go with another set of tanks. I want no limits, no guessing. NOT "nearly" unlimited hot water. NOT "virtually" unlimited hot water. Truly unlimited hot water...
When I bought my coinlaundry 7yrs ago it was equipped with 6 tankless water heater(tank was 2yrs old) about a year after it started to develop problems. Here in los angels the water is very hard, too much calcium, and it started to clog up the water line. It takes too much maintenance ( flushing it with vinigar) I was charged 90 dollars per unit. I got rid of it on following year and replaced it with a 300 gallon commercial water heater.
A bit info from European perspective.
We use both tankless and tank gas water heaters. Usually when only hot water is needed tankless one is used. When it comes to hot water and heating combined we use tank ones, but in two versions: one with internal tank with capacity of around 40 litres or other with external standing or wall-mounted tank with capacity from 150 to 300 litres. Heaters with external tank have a heating coil working as a heat exchanger inside thus when central heating water is flowing through the pipes it keeps hot tap water hot for longer time. That kind of external tank may also have electric heater inside. So much by way of introduction.
As for maintenance it's advised to make an inspection of a heater once a year, usually couple of weeks before colder season. Inspection is done by the authorized serviceman and usually costs around $20 to $25. When some service work is required it cost from $30 to $200.
Properly maintained tankless heater will last about 15 years without any major overhaul.
On the other hand tank heaters may cause some problems after 5 years due to scaling and corrosion, even if there's salt-based water treatment and filtration system installed.
Before buying the heater we evaluate the demand for heat and hot water per person and how many people will live in a given house. For households of 3-4 people tankless heater or heater with smaller internal tank is advised. For bigger households additional big tank should be installed.
In terms of instant hot water a circulating pump is the only solution. That requires additional piping.
Last but not least. Money savings. Note that European natural gas (per BTU or kWh) is about 3 to 4 times more expensive than the American one. These figures are for the northern part of Central Europe (Germany, Poland).
For tankless heater.
In a properly insulated 1500-1700 sq ft house with triple pane windows without waste heat recovery (recuperator) with efficient heating annual cost of heating and hot water for a family of four should not be bigger that $800 to $1000. Fully passive house with recuperation and additional heat pump may lower a gas bill to less than $400/year.
For tank heater there may be a slight increase of gas consumption resulting in respectively $900-$1100 and $500 gas bill. Additionally higher failure rate of external tanks and necessity of water treatment system installation may rise the costs in longer perspective.
I went tankless to gain floor space. If you have people in your house that runs the hot water heater out and want to save, it might be better to get a smaller tank with equal wattage. It'll force them out of the shower sooner and the smaller tank will recover quicker.
I've heard first hand of these getting installed and going bad right away (electric). The solution was to install a water filter on the inlet side as contaminates were clogging it.
I got rid of a premium conventional tank which was 7 years old, It was a rental and a gas hog. We have a jacuzzi and it was a disaster. We couldnt use it. To fill it from the conventional tank was impossible. You would use up all the hot water in the tank and while you were waiting for the tank to recover the tub would cool to tepid.
The builder of our house had a deal with the gas provider to provide rental heaters to the housing builder, supposedly estimating the the appropriate hot water needs. What a crock.
The water heater supplier, Direct Energy) told me to turn up the water heater temp to 160 F. . ( and triple my gas bill)no way.
We were stuck with the tank for 7 years. Hence I have a 199kbtu, tankless, best thing I ever did.
I got rid of my 7y/o furnace as well. It was 65 % efficiency.
My tankless heats my domestic water, and domestic water also heats my house as well, using a heater/ air handler. I did all the work myself, I had a plumber gas fitter friend give the system his blessings in exchange for a 40oz bottle of Chevas scotch.
My overall gas usage has averaged a 38% reduction. Mainly because of the increased efficiencies of the 96% efficient water heater, and the better heat exchange in the heater/air handler.
My next house will be done the same way
Cheers
PS I also installed a water softner in the cold water supply to the tankless, to eliminate the flushing of the tankless, and protect the heat exchanger in the air handler. 😊
PSS Other advantage, I have only 1 gas heating unit in the house, instead of having to replace a water heater every 8 to 10 years and a furnace every 15 to 20 years, doin the math its $1500 for a tankless every 12 to 15 years. The savings justify doing this conversion.
Thanks for making this. I often hear this sort of issue. I've lived outside the US 20+ years and things like the tankless water heater or split aircon/heaters have been standard for years. And having had them, they work great. I'm not sure why people are so slow to not adopt this technology. Luckily we have never had to do the descale process or need any maintenance.
Yes your right in Europe they have been using rinni tankless water heaters for over 65-75 years that's where rinni was made and the USA didn't look at them like they saved money but they do and you never run out of hit water