A few things that Matt forgot #1 gas line sizing for a 200,000 BTU piece of equipment #2 recirculation lines add to your gas consumption, they don’t stay hot for free. #3 contacting the gas utility about the added load (The gas meter and regulator will need to be sized for the entire house load , all gas appliances). #4 connecting a 200,000 BTU stationary appliance with a flexible connector may be excepted by Matt’s code enforcement district but it’s not a recommended connection by Rinnai. #5 as a gas utility technician we tend to find in 40% of the cases, the gas utility bill going up after installing a tankless water heater (this is usually due to added use because of the endless supply of hot water and the use of recirculation pumps with long pipe runs).#6 This Rinnai is a little easier than servicing the condensing type when parts are needed but it’s no walk in the park , you better know what you’re doing if you’re replacing heat exchangers and burners.#7 when it comes to tankless water heaters ,Rinnai s are very good but their service valves suck, install Webstone service valves and you can thank me later. When it comes to tankless WHs, Rinnai and Bosch are probably your best choices. I personally have a tank type, I keep it clean and replace the anode from time to time (less headaches and I don’t get paid to work on my own equipment but I love working on yours).
I agree with most of what you said but remember that Tankless units do not consume 200,000btu every time they turn on. They are stage fired and gas consumption is proportional to the load. Conventional tanks are 100% on/off. Its very seldom that the unit is drawing 200k btu meaning 11gpm hot water. In most cases these unit are drawing 50k btu. with one or two fixtures running. I prefer Navien NPE series.
@@MrTictawk , When it comes to sizing gas lines and the incoming gas distribution system it doesn’t matter what your average use maybe, they have to be sized for the maximum use possible. Navien equipment is not too popular around here and I understand they’re having heat exchanger problems. I am not a real big fan of South Korean equipment.
@@boby115 Navien has Stainless steel heat exchangers and I find them very reliable. If you have very hard water, the unit needs to be serviced annually or the exchanger will fail. Ditto any other brand including Rinnai.
I have been loving my heat pump water heater. Runs on a tiny amount of energy, there were incentives to make it cheaper to buy, and dries the air in its environment as a bonus.
I also installed a heat pump water heater and it is the best piece of cost saving equipment I have. Far more efficient than a tankless water heater and cheaper to run.
Same, I was going to go gas tankless but went for the incentive on a heat pump tank instead. I was wary of capacity and speed but It has totally changed my opinion, I'm sold. I get free AC in the garage now too! I'll be getting rid of my gas furnace next for a heat pump, and with that I'll be ending gas service to my house as well.
@@nonwilson5587 It's a standard electric water heater, but with what is essentially a window AC unit on top (that is the "heat pump"). The AC unit, aka heat pump, pulls heat from the air and via the compression and evaporation mechanics of the unit will release, or ahem "pump", the heat into the water. It's the same process that happens when a home needs heat in the winter (hvac unit takes heat from the outside air and moves it to the inside air). Technology Connections has a great video about heat pumps that I think helps folks who are unfamiliar understand: th-cam.com/video/7J52mDjZzto/w-d-xo.html
Our water heater went out a few years ago. I was planning on getting a tankless, but the additional cost of the heater combined with the higher install costs meant it jsut didnt’ make sense. Ended up going with a high efficiency 50gal that’s working perfectly.
What water heater brand do you go with? If you don’t mind me asking. Finding it hard to find a reliable brand that doesn’t have poor reviews upon installation or a few years in rehiring replacement parts or multiple service calls.
In my previous home, I've installed a Rinnai 14y ago, apartment, absolutely no issues. This week, because of this long run, this week I installed a new Rinnai in my home, after a 10y old tank cracked. I don't know about the other brands, but I can testify for Rinnai. Because of the location, very soft water, the old unit has never been descaled.
Wish I had known about options like this 2 years ago when I swapped out my busted tank. Thought tankless for a second until I had to start thinking about a condensate line…. Love the videos!
I have a Rinnai commercial unit handling my heat and hot water. It was able to use the existing PVC exhaust from the old direct vent tank, and the relief valve was already run to a drain so that was fine for condensate. It's much quieter and modulates pretty seamlessly. It handles heat, a hot wash filling, and a shower as hot as I want it simultaneously without issue. The only real downside is the initial delay, but honestly it's worth the tradeoff for me. What I can't speak to is longevity, reliability, and service costs. I rent through, so that's not my problem (directly anyway).
I like getting info on new products. Unfortunately this video came out like sales pitch for Rinnai. I do not doubt it is a well made quality product but I expected to at least get a close up of the plumbing connections, information on how water is circulated (pump inside unit? small storage unit?) . Efficiency when in recirculating mode? More info on maintenance, restrictions on hard water usage, venting through the roof issues, and especially your knowledge and experience (pros and cons) but we didn't get that objective feedback this time. I had a friend that was all proud of his tankless unit and bragged how much he would save, until he needed to called the plumber back to service the unit each year. While he did have unlimited water, he had no real savings.
@@Marin3r101 he could have easily shown those questions and information in a video like this.. he literally built a mock up wall just to do the install. It’s not that people aren’t patient, it’s that almost every video he does is a straight up advertisement. His “real” remodel started as a normal home being remodeled and turned into a total rebuild using all sponsored products, nothing real about that. He’s a sell out but does offer some good information occasionally.
I wish I went tankless 3 years ago. Will definitely get one when I get a newly built home in the near future. I thought the other vids when a hot water tank was cut open interesting. Thanks for posting
Given that where I live in Europe the price of electricity swings between 10 cent and a dollar per kWh based on which hour of the day it is then tankless is the outmoust stupid solution you can have if you can have a smart home unless you like to go up in the middle of the night to take a shower.
@@ehsnils I’m in Florida in home about 40 years old. It’s a pain to get hot water in the master bathroom. I bet at least a 2 liters of water is wasted before the hot water arrives. I think solar and some type of energy storage will be used.
@@StormBringer- I hope that works out for you. Right now, the real estate gods and the state of Florida are conspiring against you on all counts. Move cautiously. 2 liters of water could be the least of your worries.
Our house has 2 hot water circuits- the master and everything else. The 11yo ao Smith 50gal power vent for the master finally started leaking. I was torn between tankless (have the gas for it) and tank. Ended up installing two Bradford White 50gal power vents in series. So there's 100gal of hot water on tap, first hr delivery is approx 140 gal. It almost seems to work like tankless really. Can take a 20 min shower, then fill a jacuzzi tub, run the hot drip to keep the bath warm, do that for half an hr and then take another 20min shower. Solid hot water the whole time, faster delivery, lower maintenance. Pretty happy w it.
Give me the RINNAI condensing unit each and every time!!! I like 96% efficient! I plumbed the whole house using manifolds and direct runs to each fixture (PEX A), danged if I want the water heater continually heating the water in the hot water lines. Furthest fixture takes 24 seconds to get HOT water, and as you showed in one of your earlier videos 10 feet of 1/2" PEX holds a little over ONE cup of water .. do the math. And being shower valves are anti-scald there is a blend of hot and cold, the shower head is 1.75 gpm .. do a little more math. I really like our RINNAI tankless water heater, I installed it by myself .. hardest part was lifting the 82 lb. unit to hang it on the wall. Easiest part was plugging it in! ;)
In the UK tankless is pretty common, though the same heater also does hydronic heating of the property over winter, so there's a secondary heat exchanger inside it. Though now discussion is going back to tanks (cylinders) so you can use solar and heat pumps as inputs for lower carbon heat.
My boss man is thinking of if and when they might donut with gas. Because he's thinking of the oil crisis that they may look into more electric or maybe even Hydrogen. What do you think about that? And yeah. My boss has already put in a lot of electric water heating tanks. We've managed to get some good sources of simple vent less heaters that could work of solar no problem.
Hey Matt! We've had a Rinnai here in South Alabama for 20 yrs, It is a great unit and has served well despite being installed by people who claimed to know everything, but knew absolutely nothing about tankless and really screwed up royal installing our system. We also heat our home with a hot water coil: hydronic heat. Things have never been right & we've had so many headaches through the years. I know the Rinnai machine is not to blame. It's hard not to drool over this system or others like it that you show in your videos. It would be great to have someone that is really savvy come and iron out all the bugs and get this puppy running the way it was made to. Another other thing that distresses me is that we don't have the system flush set up. We are on well water that is not hard but there is a lot of calcium. Pardon the sob story, but things like this really do boil the blood!🤬 Nice to know about that recirculation valve.😀👍👊🤙
Matt, one thing that you didn’t mention, that I think is important is what the tank is made of… Is it copper or stainless steel? That’s a key selling point for me on commercial especially. I haven’t looked into the Rinnai lately, so I don’t know, but the Navien, that I installed in my house has a stainless steel tank… Or should I say reservoir…
@@schnellfahren911 In the Bosch GreenTherm they basically put a "spring" (or coil) inside the copper tubes of the heat exchanger. This coil moves independently inside the tube which gently "scrubs" the inner wall and effectively prevents scale from forming.
Or causes a hole to be rubber through the walls due to constant friction. Plus having aggregate to help it because you are grinding the scale into the tubes
Couple things.. in a real world installation from tanked to tankless, the condensation drain isn’t really an issue, you could just utilize the drain pan line (I don’t see one in this video) for the purpose of draining the condensate drain and as a drain pan drain. If you install a condensate neutralizer filter you’re good to go.
Code doesn't allow that. Manufacturer says not to use any other condensate or shared drain as well. The issue is that condensate lines grow algae/mold (because people forget to clean them) and they can eventually get completely blocked. Not a big deal because you'll get a warning or the system will stop functioning, however, if your water heater ruptures, it's going to need all 3/4-1" of that drain line, and if it's partially blocked by algae, then it can't serve it's purpose and you can have overflow from the very drain meant to prevent it. So, go with a dedicated line for all condensate and drain pans. As a side note; a mechanical room I'm installing right now has 4 condensate lines, 2 TPR lines and 3 overflow drains. It's tempting to combine them, but experience/code says no.
A more energy efficient option than using a recirculating pump it is to locate your water heater(s) closer to your faucets. This may be difficult for existing buildings, but if you are building new, then design your house to accommodate this. Install multiple water heaters if your faucets are far away from each other. Also, insulate both your hot and cold water supply pipes. This is especially important if you do use a recirculating pump.
An added benefit to locating your water heaters close to your faucets (and any appliances that need hot water) is that you only need long runs of your cold water supply.
My water heater location in the basement is near laundry/kitchen/main floor bath, so getting hot water quickly is easy. But the 2nd bath is polar opposite end of the house and 2nd floor. I am so tempted to get that bathroom hot water locally. And there's a long utility closet along the backside of the bathroom, so all that plumbing is right there -- in the closet, not the wall -- to tap into overall.
Some comments made below about prolonging tanked heater by replacing anode rods often. True, the rods are very tight to remove. If you strong, you can do it but might damage the other solder joints in the process. I used impact wrench and made the task a lot easier. Similar to car mechanics work on tire lug nuts.
Except, you should read some of the comments as well. There are several comments that add things he may have forgotten or he just doesn't know. I always read the comments plus do my own research before making a decision.
Coming from a plumber, that has worked on these a lot, I cation you about the recirculating line. If you don’t have the proper diameter pipe you can start to have pin hole leaks in your water distribution system.
Matt I have been subscribed for years and this is the first show of yours I have seen in months I don’t know what the you tube algorithm is doing to you but you should complain to them I love the show I hate when I can’t find it
I have a Navian 240. Does a good job but it makes a high pitch noise for a couple of second when it comes on. I can't figure it out as did the plumber.
We have a 200 year old Riverstone home in Pennsylvania and we had to go with two of those one for the three bathrooms and one for the kitchen and laundry, we have a large 1,000 gal propane tank outside and we haven't had any problems with that setup and its endless hot water
After recirculating the water into the cold water line , you must be getting tempered water out of the cold water side of the sink . Tempered water after all is a mix of hot and cold and we were always told not to use the hot water to make tea , coffee or drink it because it contains metals from the heater . Heat exchangers leak for many reasons but if one of them is from cavitation where did the material that was removed to cause that leak go ( right into the hot water ) . Maybe it would be best to add a dedicated return line with a smaller diameter tubing to keep the Hot Water separate .
A couple of things to add: (1) That cross over valve will be pushing your hot water through 1/2 inch lines. The difference between that configuration, and my implementing the 3/4 recirc line that I installed when building the house (but the plumbers had no idea how to utilize), was the difference between heating the water though all lines in 10 minutes, versus 30 seconds. It made THAT much difference. (Why, with a recirculating hot water heater, would you care how long it takes to circulate the water? Well, I'm on propane. We pretty much just push the recirc button when we want hot water in the downstairs faucets and bathroom, and turn it off afterwards. In other words, we don't set a schedule with the hot water continually running through the lines, to save on propane, because it only requires seconds to circulate though the house from beginning to water heater return. With the Rinnai Condensing recirc hot water heater, that brings our hot water heating costs down to maybe, $15 a month for a 2400 sq foot home. Anything you can do on a retrofit to create a 3/4" recirculation hot water line, will likely reduce your heating (gas or electricity) bill. It's not rocket science. Poke a hole out somewhere at the end of the line, and run that new hot water line over, under, outside, back to the tank. If your existing system has, for example, two supply legs, you can link them together at the end of both lines. (2) On ANY, and I repeat, ANY tankless hot water system, add a 100 Micron, spin down sediment water filter on the OUTBOUND hot water line, to catch any debris that may come from the hot water heater. With a regular tank, that sediment settles to the bottom of the tank, and the amount of carry out of the tank through the top hot water supply pipe is minimal. With a tankless system, there's no place for that debris to go, but to your fixtures, clogging them up. In a severe case (as in, with very hard water), in a recirc system, that debris can foul your check valves causing problems (e.g. cold water running back up the hot water lines, giving the customers at the end of the circuit, cold showers). Even if your water supply has great PH, Rinnai recommends (I believe) flushing the system with something like vinegar to clean the tank annually. (In my case, with hard water, it's every 2 to 3 months.)
The Navien already has a built in sediment trap on the incoming cold water line to the tank. As far as hard water you need to treat your system to prevent that build up and eventual corrosion of your plumbing system.
@@HoyaNinja22 The Rinnai also has an incoming filter (and probably, all hot water heaters do), but regardless of your water quality, (and yeah, mine is an extreme case where my water is hard AND there are no good solutions to treat it, due to the build), sediment WILL exit your hot water heater. The spin down filter catches it, instead of your downstream faucets and other devices.
We have very hard water in Utah. In 2010 we gutted our prior house, piped everything in Pex including a recirc pump and 3/4" recirc line. We installed a good soft water unit that fed into the Rinnai and have had zero issues. Soft water is vital in keeping the tankless systems free of build up. There is a company out of Florida that designs their soft water systems based upon your water hardness and impurities. We have moved into a 1977 home and are planning our upgrades to include Pex, Insulated Recirc Line, Recirc Pump, Tankless, Soft Water and RO. After living with clean shower doors and endless hot water, it is a high priority to upgrade and enjoy. Many of the better tankless models include recirc pumps and smart technology that learns the higher usage times and will run the pump accordingly. You can also integrate wireless switches and/or WiFi apps to turn on/off the pump making them more of a complete on demand system. For those without Recirc Lines, look into Aquamotion AMH3K-7N with the On Demand Kit and you can overcome the 5 minute wait for hot water in the 2nd floor shower.
@@innovativesolutionsav1684 I heard that Sodium Polyphosphate Balls (SILIPHOS) will reduce hardness in water and/or prevent hard water scale from forming. I've seen just about all the scam solutions (and have tried a few of them myself), so I was skeptical. However, I already had a basket strainer on the incoming water main line, so tossing some in there to try it wasn't much effort (though those things ARE pricy). Well, the verdicts still out. I installed them the last time I flushed out the tankless unit, and though we're a month or two past the normal 3-month flush schedule which has kept us out of trouble, still no indication of scale problems in the water heater. I had to pull the strainer while tapping the line to supply a new irrigation system, so it's been without the SILPROS for a couple of weeks. However, thus far, I'd give them a thumbs up. Even if I can reduce the flush schedule to twice annually, I figure it's a success (note: flushing a tankless W.H. is recommended annually in any case). I'll probably have to run the test a full year to know for certain.
On our second Rinnai. 1st lasted 15 years before it sprang a leak (I never descaled it). Probably would have lasted 20 years or more if I had descaled it-it’s a simple DIY.
My aunt allowed me to lease her rental cabin for a discount. It's close to where I work. So, I after I moved in, I noticed water on the cement adjacent to the water heater. I opened the door and saw water at the bottom from a compromised tank. Recently I was awe of tankless systems as it would be easy enough to convert too right there. However, I planned to move out come that winter as my job was moving to another location, plus I know nothing about repairing a tankless system and I didn't have time to take courses on how to fix one. So I got on the phone trying to find plumbers that work on them and I asked, "just off the bat, do you charge more for fixing a tankless heater," and I got two telephone numbers for guys that work on them. I asked them, "is it more expensive to work on a tankless system?" and each of them said, "it depends". Well that answers that question. I was asking for a Y/N answer. So I got another tank system and put it in that same day. I was surprised I even considered a tankless.
I have a tankless water heater that is 100% efficient: A Black & Decker 50 AMP electric flash heater. It's just my wife and I, so we don't need to run multiple hot water uses at the same time. We always take showers, so we only need about 1 gallon per minute. We can shower as long as we want, and it's temperature-controlled, so it's a steady 106 F. Best of all, the electricity costs us nothing because our solar grid-tied system has never generated a bill since we installed it years ago. It's small enough, we could install it right in the bathroom British-style if we wanted instant hot water. The cost: $168 at Lowes!
@@RobertClontz I can...... But would be very odd that you would ever need to purchase it. It comes with their units. I don't really see it working with other units
Would it not work because without a recirculation component, the hot water pressure would simply be equal with the cold water pressure (used for the recirculation line)? If so, that makes sense.
Then you should know ... please reply ... I saw no cold weather protection. I live in Alaska, get to -30°F. Is there a kit? Also, is there a way to disable recirculation, don't want heat my crawl space with this? Thank you, I am in the market. I have a 120 gallon tub that far exceeds by 50 gallon tank.
On my second Rinnai in my new house. Previous "old" house (soon to be 100 YO) has a Rinnai (same model for both) that was 16 YO with "Zero" service issues. Traditional Tank types? Never, not ever again!
Navien is probably the best unit out there, we have very little trouble with them. The A model the only one we sell has a small liter size tank that stays at temperature. This eliminates several things. 1. when you turn on your hot water, hot water is on its way, no time difference from your old tank type. 2. No cold water sandwich. 3.No minimum flow rate. If you have a modern home with a large hot tub, the tankless will not only fill it but will be able to replace the massive heat loss they incur when turning on the bubbles. Will you use more gas? Of course, good things usually do cost more. Gas meters, at least in our area are supplied by the gas company, just a simple phone call and they replace the meter free of charge. Never understood that argument. The warranty on a Navien is 15 years on the exchanger and electronic components are relatively inexpensive. Dont buy a combi boiler! This is the latest craze. Modern boilers have outside reset controls and modulate output at a 10 to 1 ratio. Take my home for instance, my heat load is 36000 BTUs on a zero degree day. With a 70,000 BTU boiler I can modulate down to 7000. But this turndown ratio is based on input, most Combi boilers are 200,000 in, this means a minimum firing rate of 20,000. That would be ridiculous.
I'm all for new technologies & modern conveniences, but I naturally shy away from much more complex units when simpler and proven technology are still available. My current hot water tank is a standard 40 gallon natural gas fired tank with a pilot light. It doesn't need electricity to work. It was installed 21 years ago & it hasn't needed any service. Not even a new thermocouple. If it craps out tomorrow, I'll replace it with the same type. Simple, cheap & reliable trumps trendy complex & expensive when it comes to mechanical systems.
Nice unit Matt I have one in my house. Not that model but the brand. I do not recommend these anymore to my clients though. Please here me on this. They don’t work with the modern appliances. Biggest problem being washing machines. They only fill with water for maybe 3 seconds then check the load. That does not give the tankless enough time. I have been and still will be recommending the HTP hybrid on demand water heater. Please put some thought into what I’m informing you in on, look at HTP and give me a response. If this is news to you and you have a high efficacy washing machine do a load yourself and be listening to the heater. Grace and Peace Slick
I believe this is a hybrid unit with a small tank in it, and it provides recirculation function so the pipe will have hot water in it nearly continuously.
While washing machines CAN use hot water, manufacturers have been trying to educate people for years that you will get perfectly fine results with just cold water. In fact, they recommend not using hot water. But people are slow to evolve. Old dogs and new tricks.
If you're in America, electric tankless is only used for seldom-used points because they can't flow hot water for very long. If you're in other parts of the world, that's not the case necessarily. The difference is how they get power. In America we only have 220 volts. .. and that's if you run a dedicated line and if your service supports the extra amperage. In Europe you might have 440v, which lets you need less current, smaller/cheaper electric wiring, all while using a heater than can compete with gas for performance. In other words that product doesn't exist for Americans.
I have two Rinnai tankless water heaters, one in our house and one in our rental house next door. Love them both, when it comes to the non condensing vs. condensing, if you have a drain I would only go with the condensing, overall cost isn't much different and losing 10% efficiency isn't worth it. I also wouldn't use the concentric vent unless it mounted on an outside wall. The separate 2" PVC air inlet and outlet on other models is extremely cheap and easy to deal with.
Looks like a nice unit with the built in recirc. pump. A recirc. pump would not work well in my 50's house. The water heater is actually quite centrally located with respect to the hot water fixtures. However, there are two separate hot water pipe runs, one to the kitchen and the other to the bathrooms. The bathrooms are maybe 50% farther away than the kitchen, but the hot water in the kitchen is used more frequently. So where to put that single thermal bypass valve? I looked into the cost savings on water with a recirc. setup and it would take many decades to pay for the install. Maybe if the local water utility had a decent rebate program (hint, hint!), then it might make sense. I went with a condensing unit for my retrofit install. Condensate was not an issue as the clothes washer and standpipe drain was right next to the water heater. Also, it was in a garage on a shared wall with the house. So venting out the wall wasn't an option. Was able to use PVC venting that ran up through the roof in place of the old tank venting. Also, the condensing model I chose could run on the existing 1/2" gas line vs. a non-condensing model of similar capacity would need a new 3/4" gas line run. So it's always best to look at the entire install and consider the whole system cost. In my case, what was saved on gas piping and venting could be put towards a more efficient heater and with the recent rise in natural gas prices, that's paying off big. Going tankless cut my gas use and bill by over 80% compared to the old 40 gal. tank.
I cannot believe with all the experience we all have had with these machines trying to predict our behavior that anyone believes they will work for anyone that’s not on a comically steady routine while living in a really well built, modern, small home. I hope they offer one without the “smart” features for those of us who have considered hoarding thermostats that actually work.
Problem with recirc is the unit never really gets to turn off since the water in the lines is always cooling down so essentially you are never 'on demand'. It will basically kill your electricity usage during the 20 hours in the day you aren't actually using hot water.
a day late and a dollar short,, I just finished changing the tank to on demand in the mother in laws house about an hr ago,, went with rheem and it went pretty smooth and works fine,, its a 900 sq ft house with one 85 yr old women so I dont expect much trouble from it,, thanks
No thanks I sold tankless for 8 years ,I'll keep changing my Angel rod's every two years in my 20 y.o. glass lined 50 gallon tank.Average cost for permits and installation on Tankless before pandemic was average $3500, Tank$ 1300 here in las vegas.Great video for new home builds,and they are easier to replace after 10-20 years like a tank, just rember dont use a Water Softner folks that will kill heaters faster then anything
$3,500? That's the going rate for a tank replacement. With a simple, cheap HD unit. Tankless are double that at least. And even more if input or output upgrades are required. (New venting is always required!). But, still cheaper than the $6,000 to $8,000 I've been quoted for a heat pump water heater installation. And that assumed I would provide the 240V, 30A service. (I was planning to steal the electric dryer circuit from the nearby breaker box because I have a gas dryer) Everything construction related in CA is off the charts these days. My neighbor paid $20,000 for an exterior house repaint to a couple of unlicensed, undocumented two years ago! Actual licensed pros were too busy to even offer him an estimate.
We have owned a tankless water heater for the past 25years. They are great for taking showers with a large household. They suck for laundry, dishwashers and all other hot water usages.
The Japanese units are great. I have a Noritz hanging on the side of the house that hasn’t been touched since it was installed. Oh yeah, it’s a 2006…. We have the remote in the Kitchen and turn it to 160F to wash the dishes. They come out freaking spotless.
@@jasonpatterson947 oh yes sir. I have lost touch with their standing in the market. Back when I get this one they had several advantages that made them last a long time like the thickest all copper heat exchangers in the market, rock solid electronics etc… I don’t know if they still produce that top quality product or not but I’d go for another one. 16 years and haven’t even descaled it once although it needs it now. It will trip out due to overheating if you set the temp below 135F. Meh, I’ll get around to it one day. In all seriousness though, I hung it on the wall and have never had the cover off since. As said earlier, I will support any Japanese heater; Noritz, Rinnai, Takagi. Probably in that order though unless there is something that has changed that I’m unaware of.
I have a Bosch that is more than 20 years old. It's the 125X model. Piezoelectric ignition. No plug needed. The downside? Five years ago I replaced some bathroom sink fixtures as part of a remodel project. They flow at 1.2 GPM. The Bosch won't come on at this rate. It requires 1.5 GPM. ;-(
My tankless water heater stopped working last summer and I called a plumber and he tried to sell me on a new Rinnai heater. He told me that since my heater was 10 years old, it was past it’s service life and it would be best to replace it at a cost of $6k. I did a little searching online and ordered a new igniter and one other small part for a total of $42. It’s been working fine ever since. I also learned you should flush them with vinegar at least every year to clean the deposits out. You just need a $50 submersible pump, a bucket and some washing machine hoses.
I wanted to go tankless but in talking to my plumber he said the gas meters in town won’t handle the furnace, stove and water heater BTU wise and would have to change to larger gas line! He said he had done it his house because the wife wanted that! Said it was really expensive to make all the changes!
I put a A.O. Smith descaler plus an A.O. Smith whole house filter along with a A.O. Smith pre-and post filters set up on my Rinnai… Find fault with that now
@@jsbrads1 he did say drop in replacement for a tank heater. Which is why he didn’t go with a condensing 95%+. Adding in pre-treatment makes it a lot more complicated
I have always loved tankless water heaters. In the old old days, the restrictions were insane, with double wall pipes and clearance. We are looking at an older home and this will be our first upgrade. I have always been a Rinnai fan.
Why not just use that cold water from the hot tap to brush your teeth before you get into the shower. By the time you have finished brushing your teeth, rinsing your toothbrush, the hot water will be right there nothing wasted.
I have not been able to find gas consumption rates. THAT info would be very helpful. Yes, inlet water temp will vary, but at least give us a good example of propane requirements.
In times of extreme natural gas prices, I think this is the best solution to get rid of the $300 tank that never breaks, and buy a $1000 gas heater with a bunch of electronics and a stone-collecting electric pump that will most likely fail right after the warranty expires.
Exactly, timing to promote such useless grid addiction couldn't be more odd. Did you know that you can transform old oil heaters into external emergency wood/wood pallets heaters with a few easy steps?
Note that for whatever reason, the video image is reversed when he is talking about the bypass line and which side is hot and which side is cold (you can see the printing on his shirt is mirror-image). All plumbers know that hot goes on the left!
The whole purpose of a On Demand water heater is that it is shut off until it's needed... having a recirculating circuit makes this unit dribble constantly. Not needed. My Two Cents
@@daveklein2826 Don't be a jerk, Dave. No need for it here. Matt may not have made it clear: the circ pump only comes on when needed. For most of the day the water is stationary and the unit is off. When hot water is called for (motion sensor in bathroom, or unit triggered by bath light switch being turned on) the pump starts and gets that hot water to its destination quick. I have a Watts hot water circulator on my conventional hot water tank and it works well. It's very basic, and starts by time clock: fifteen minutes before I get out of bed. It uses the same little thermostatic valve tied to the cold line. My wife just loves it.
@@daveklein2826 Yes about as worthless as that water heater... Make sure you hook it up to Siri and your smart doorbell, so it can activate when it sees you pull into the driveway. Weeeeeeeeeee!
Exactly. And furthermore that little plastic valve won't allow enough flow to turn the tankless water heater on. Check out the Smart Recirculation Control if you want an on demand hot water recirculation solution without having to run wires and install buttons and sensors all over your house. They have solutions for both dedicated recirculation loops and dead end systems like Matt is talking about, but their valve flows higher volume so it actually works with tankless water heaters.
I replaced 2 - 50 gal tanks in the house I just bought. One was in the attic and already showing signs of rusting and leaking. Bought one Rinnai to replace them both. Would never go back to a tank water heater.
The electrical grid in most places can not handle the load now. Solar pannels & wind are not realistic in a majority of this world, at least not yet. I live in Alaska, you have to have a lot of sun, which we do in the summer but not the winter. Wind you need wind. My side of town, West does not get much wind. The East side of town gets hurican force winds reguarly. Also, the ebenflo of life, we used to all be on electric to heat our homes etc before the 80s. Now we are almost all on natural gas, I do not see people going backwards.
@@AkSonya1010 the grid will be expanded, not a problem. Electrical grid operators would love to make more money and sell you more electricity, believe me
When the power is out during a midwinter storm, I still have plenty of heat and endless hot water from my Rheem propane tankless. Even at $4.30 per gallon that peace of mind is priceless. Even if I get heat pump AC - if my state ever implements the new rebates - I'll still keep my propane hookup for when it gets real.
About 15 years ago we had a tankless, Bosch I believe, but went back to a tank for the following reasons: 1) After two years of use, the repair tech was not able to get it to start properly (propane)... the burner would fire up for a couple seconds and then fault out. Performing the regular recommended flushes/cleaning did not help. 2) Could never wash clothes in hot water. The washer would fill using several calls for hot water. Every time the water was shut off and then turned back on a few seconds later, the tankless would re-start its heating process, putting several seconds of cold water in the hot water circuit. The unit we had did not have any way to keep heating after the flow was stopped. If the flow stopped, the heating stopped, completely. The end result was that the washer never washed in anything warmer than luke warm water. What did I like about it? When it was off, it consumed NO gas, period. As long as it was running and I had propane, I would never run out of hot water. I was able to select the exact desired temp for our shower using the remote... this way, cold water was not used at all to lower the temp of the hot water down to the temp that was comfortable in the shower.... We LOVED that feature. The only way I would return to a tankless is if we could overcome the on-off cycle problem we had with the clothes washer.
Your experience has me thinking not to go tankless ... our new washer does the same thing, at one point in the cycle it turns water on and off every few seconds. It's kinda stupid, actually. Just one more reason for the water valves in the washer to fail sooner probably.
@@thenexthobby Agreed. Although, in the past 30 years, I've had two washers. The only things that I've had to repair (done them myself) was the door boot (front load), water pump and direct drive motor. Never a valve. But back to the point of water cycling.... My recent research suggested that some of the newer tankless have a feature that allows you to keep the heater running for 1-2 minutes after the water flow stops, in order to combat this exact problem without having a hot water return loop. When my tank heater starts giving out (electric) I may just give tankless another try... that is after I verify that it will stay running for a period of time.
If the recirculation pump feature was smart, it would detect the pressure change on the hot line and warm up the hot water line. A timer may work for folks on a fixed schedule. It's wasteful for folks on a schedule that's unpredictable. Also, the recirculation pump system could distinguish between an open faucet and broken line, to prevent heating and pumping when a pipe or hose breaks.
This type of system is common in the UK and Europe, though, ours are usually "condenser combi boilers" and it has a separated diverter valve for heating and then for hot water, heating recirculates water in the radiators and then has a separate function for heating water for washing up or showers. My parents had a tank (immersion heater) when I grew up, ended up having a series of inline water heaters that were stupidly expensive to run and they finally did an install of a combi boiler last year - what a difference to spend on heating alone! We generally use gas-powered though in the UK at least.
@@BS25999 They won't ban ones already fitted, and heat pumps are shown to not work efficiently in poorly insulated/poorly air sealed houses- which 95% of the UK is! But whens that ever stopped the Gov making the correct call...
@@Jack-OfAll-Trades Heat pumps work just fine in poorly insulated houses. The difficulty in retrofitting a heat pump to an old building is that you need to fit larger radiators or under floor heating.
The tankless heater takes way longer time to heat up. I got a Rinnai non-condense version, and it could take tens of seconds to reach the target temperature(115F) by reading the outgoing water temperature in the diagnose mode.
I was thinking about going with a tankless for my full house reno project... but the electric requirements are like 3 40 amp double pole breakers for 5gpm. I decided to go the traditional route and just install a tank lol
Tankless in Europe is mostly electric and yes, you'll need more than a typical house of yester-year. Most modern houses are built with 200-250 amp service, so electric tankless is not that difficult.
It seems you was looking at tankless that runs by only electricity. Rinnai needs a low 120 ac volt with 15 amp. That u can plug in to a regular house outlet.
I’m putting in a heat pump water heater. Don’t know of any tankless or even hybrid options for that, sadly, but we need to stop extracting carbon from the ground. HP water heaters are easily powered by renewables; I wish the industry would do more to integrate solar thermal for hot water.
If you put in a recirculation pump with a heat pump water heater you will need to use a smart control to prevent the pump from running all the time and causing the tank to cool down. Rheem has a technical bulletin on the problem. The Smart Recirculation Control solves this problem for HP water heaters.
There's no way solar panels on a basic home scenario could provide anywhere near enough electricity to power one of these bad boys. Maybe you need to think about solar on a net major grid level which wouldn't involve the hot water heater industry at all.
@@ssdkilla rooftop solar can easily power even a resistive heater. A heat pump heater would be no problem. What it can’t do is power a gas heater, even if it comes from somewhere else, which is why we shouldn’t be installing gas heaters.
I don't normally comment because I don't usually know anything. Nice video, that's quite a mockup! And the camera/editing was good. 1) But you say that it's a non-condensing unit, which is good for places without a drain. But isn't that white PVC on the bottom left a drain? So that seems to defeat the point. 2) With that nifty plastic contraption to turn the cold water line into a return for the hot water, now you have 100°+ hot water coming out of all the cold taps, and you have to wait just as long as before for cold water now instead of waiting for hot. And having the water come out immediately at full hot temperature seems dangerous, we never use full hot in our house. 3) That intake/exhaust pipe is super cool. But how do the fittings work? Like, bends, extensions, etc. I assume all of those connections would have to be fully sealed on the inside (the aluminum part). I wonder how that's handled.
It seems to me that central water heating should be replaced by point-of-use on demand water heaters, as this would eliminate the need for recirculation pumps, and reduce the wait time for hot water.
I have the exterior, condensing version of this. The valve really does work. You get about 70% of the effectiveness of an actual loop for no cost. That's amazing. But. The smart stuff all doesn't work. The wifi module doesn't work and you need a fair amount of competence reading the lit or a good plumber to set it up and make control adjustments. The connect to your phone stuff all doesn't work (3 warranty claims trying to get it to work before literally giving up lol) Luckily - there isn't a dedicated realistic NEEEED to schedule the water heater, so I let it go. If you look up Rinnai forums, you'll see a hundred passed off plumbers also complaining about this and their damn salesmen saying it will do stuff that doesn't work on it because of their buggy and literally unworkable software. It performs admirably and way better than my previous tanked. 8 out of 10 stars.
If I lived in the south and already had a tank water heater in the attic, then I would get a HPWH and have a super efficient water heater that also cooled my attic.
I have spoken to several plumbers over the years as they were installing tankless to replace the old hot water tanks. All of them to a man will not have them in their own homes. If the customer has an old electric water heater , said customer must spend up to 1800 dollars to upgrade the panel box. The other downside plumbers have told me is the tankless units only last about 5 years. For five years of service , seems like a lot of money to spend. Not trying to piss on your parade but people should know the drawbacks to switching to tankless. I cannot speak to the longevity of gas fired tankless units , however , I believe the life expectancy of those are about 6 years. Most standard water heaters gas or electric can last 12 to 15 years and cost about 6 to 8 hundred dollars plus the fee for installation.
The condensate that comes from condensing gas appliances is highly acidic. You cannot run it into copper and many cities make you clean it with a neutralizer in line first before adding to sewage lines.
Matt , Thank you and all the commenters on this. I have a question regarding the Thermal Bypass valve... I also have a shower which is in the bathroom furthest from the water heater. You said to mount the bypass valve under the sink area, but will that also accommodate the shower and its hot water needs???Please advise, Thank You! Tom J.
4:49 So what do I do with all the hot water in my cold line? Now I need to turn on the cold tap ahead of time instead of the hot to wait for it? It just seems better to me to have two water heaters. One for each end of the house.
Put one in our Off-Grid home. Motor sounds like it's going to take off after just a year in service. Just waiting for it to go out but am sure I can just replace the motor. Not a big deal for anyone who knows what a Phillips is but still.
Regarding the sink connection drawing with fancy thermal bypass valve, if its open and hot water is constantly being pumped around the circuit, how does the basin get cold water? Wouldn't the cold line also be hot?
The valve allows hot water to reach the sink, but then closes. When you call for cold water you first flush a bit of warm water out before the cold arrives. A minor inconvenience, in my opinion, because it's the hot you really want. Those circ pumps are great for all homes where waiting for hot water is wasteful. The one I installed, a Watts brand, saves a lot of water in a year, important as I'm on a well.
@@paulmaxwell8851 Thanks for your answer Paul, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. Normally a hot water loop has a dedicated line that returns to the hot water service and the cold water has its own line to the sink. In this case (according to the drawing) the hot supply and return are connected to the cold water line. So does the hot water return line (on the cold side) switch over to cold supply automatically within the hot water supply sending cold water back to the sink? If so, the warm / hot water in the return line would have to be flushed out before cold water would come out, is that right?
Can one of you tankless water heater guys do a video about combining your tankless with a water softener? I miss my soft water but I was going through a lot of rusted out regular water heaters. I need to see that they can play nice together. Do Rinnai warranties cover salt based water softeners?
I tankless water heater. The only thing, that I don't like, is I have run the water to get hot water. So, the only time I run it, is when I do my laundry and dishes together. Other than that, I love it. I have a 1,000 square foot house. I believe my tankless water heater is condescending water heater. I'll have to install crossover valve under kitchen sink. I thought of installing a recirculation pump.
A few things that Matt forgot #1 gas line sizing for a 200,000 BTU piece of equipment #2 recirculation lines add to your gas consumption, they don’t stay hot for free. #3 contacting the gas utility about the added load (The gas meter and regulator will need to be sized for the entire house load , all gas appliances). #4 connecting a 200,000 BTU stationary appliance with a flexible connector may be excepted by Matt’s code enforcement district but it’s not a recommended connection by Rinnai. #5 as a gas utility technician we tend to find in 40% of the cases, the gas utility bill going up after installing a tankless water heater (this is usually due to added use because of the endless supply of hot water and the use of recirculation pumps with long pipe runs).#6 This Rinnai is a little easier than servicing the condensing type when parts are needed but it’s no walk in the park , you better know what you’re doing if you’re replacing heat exchangers and burners.#7 when it comes to tankless water heaters ,Rinnai s are very good but their service valves suck, install Webstone service valves and you can thank me later.
When it comes to tankless WHs, Rinnai and Bosch are probably your best choices. I personally have a tank type, I keep it clean and replace the anode from time to time (less headaches and I don’t get paid to work on my own equipment but I love working on yours).
I agree with most of what you said but remember that Tankless units do not consume 200,000btu every time they turn on. They are stage fired and gas consumption is proportional to the load. Conventional tanks are 100% on/off. Its very seldom that the unit is drawing 200k btu meaning 11gpm hot water. In most cases these unit are drawing 50k btu. with one or two fixtures running. I prefer Navien NPE series.
@@MrTictawk , When it comes to sizing gas lines and the incoming gas distribution system it doesn’t matter what your average use maybe, they have to be sized for the maximum use possible.
Navien equipment is not too popular around here and I understand they’re having heat exchanger problems. I am not a real big fan of South Korean equipment.
@@boby115 Navien has Stainless steel heat exchangers and I find them very reliable. If you have very hard water, the unit needs to be serviced annually or the exchanger will fail. Ditto any other brand including Rinnai.
I wish you worked on my city.
@@MrTictawk Rinnai also make a stainless steel heat exchanger. It's there condensing unit.
I have been loving my heat pump water heater. Runs on a tiny amount of energy, there were incentives to make it cheaper to buy, and dries the air in its environment as a bonus.
I also installed a heat pump water heater and it is the best piece of cost saving equipment I have. Far more efficient than a tankless water heater and cheaper to run.
Same, I was going to go gas tankless but went for the incentive on a heat pump tank instead. I was wary of capacity and speed but It has totally changed my opinion, I'm sold. I get free AC in the garage now too! I'll be getting rid of my gas furnace next for a heat pump, and with that I'll be ending gas service to my house as well.
Definitely getting a heat pump when my current gas fired unit dies.
@@JeffPorter4316 what is a heat pump?
@@nonwilson5587 It's a standard electric water heater, but with what is essentially a window AC unit on top (that is the "heat pump"). The AC unit, aka heat pump, pulls heat from the air and via the compression and evaporation mechanics of the unit will release, or ahem "pump", the heat into the water. It's the same process that happens when a home needs heat in the winter (hvac unit takes heat from the outside air and moves it to the inside air). Technology Connections has a great video about heat pumps that I think helps folks who are unfamiliar understand: th-cam.com/video/7J52mDjZzto/w-d-xo.html
Our water heater went out a few years ago. I was planning on getting a tankless, but the additional cost of the heater combined with the higher install costs meant it jsut didnt’ make sense. Ended up going with a high efficiency 50gal that’s working perfectly.
What water heater brand do you go with? If you don’t mind me asking. Finding it hard to find a reliable brand that doesn’t have poor reviews upon installation or a few years in rehiring replacement parts or multiple service calls.
In my previous home, I've installed a Rinnai 14y ago, apartment, absolutely no issues. This week, because of this long run, this week I installed a new Rinnai in my home, after a 10y old tank cracked. I don't know about the other brands, but I can testify for Rinnai.
Because of the location, very soft water, the old unit has never been descaled.
Wish I had known about options like this 2 years ago when I swapped out my busted tank. Thought tankless for a second until I had to start thinking about a condensate line…. Love the videos!
I have a Rinnai commercial unit handling my heat and hot water. It was able to use the existing PVC exhaust from the old direct vent tank, and the relief valve was already run to a drain so that was fine for condensate. It's much quieter and modulates pretty seamlessly. It handles heat, a hot wash filling, and a shower as hot as I want it simultaneously without issue. The only real downside is the initial delay, but honestly it's worth the tradeoff for me.
What I can't speak to is longevity, reliability, and service costs. I rent through, so that's not my problem (directly anyway).
I like getting info on new products. Unfortunately this video came out like sales pitch for Rinnai. I do not doubt it is a well made quality product but I expected to at least get a close up of the plumbing connections, information on how water is circulated (pump inside unit? small storage unit?) . Efficiency when in recirculating mode? More info on maintenance, restrictions on hard water usage, venting through the roof issues, and especially your knowledge and experience (pros and cons) but we didn't get that objective feedback this time. I had a friend that was all proud of his tankless unit and bragged how much he would save, until he needed to called the plumber back to service the unit each year. While he did have unlimited water, he had no real savings.
What mat mostly does is sales pitches.
He will eventually do one. He doesnt build homes everyday... the impatience of people is so bad these days....
To be fair, Matt did say it was sponsored by Rennai. Read, "paid advertisement."
@@Marin3r101 he could have easily shown those questions and information in a video like this.. he literally built a mock up wall just to do the install. It’s not that people aren’t patient, it’s that almost every video he does is a straight up advertisement. His “real” remodel started as a normal home being remodeled and turned into a total rebuild using all sponsored products, nothing real about that. He’s a sell out but does offer some good information occasionally.
@@corynorris5583 I’m only here for the technology showcase. Old Mat doesn’t really exists anymore.
I always thought installing a hotter heater was a tankless job!
I wish I went tankless 3 years ago. Will definitely get one when I get a newly built home in the near future. I thought the other vids when a hot water tank was cut open interesting.
Thanks for posting
Given that where I live in Europe the price of electricity swings between 10 cent and a dollar per kWh based on which hour of the day it is then tankless is the outmoust stupid solution you can have if you can have a smart home unless you like to go up in the middle of the night to take a shower.
@@ehsnils I’m in Florida in home about 40 years old. It’s a pain to get hot water in the master bathroom. I bet at least a 2 liters of water is wasted before the hot water arrives. I think solar and some type of energy storage will be used.
@@StormBringer- I hope that works out for you. Right now, the real estate gods and the state of Florida are conspiring against you on all counts. Move cautiously. 2 liters of water could be the least of your worries.
Thank you for the sound effects when tossing the box- early smile this morning 😜☀️
Our house has 2 hot water circuits- the master and everything else. The 11yo ao Smith 50gal power vent for the master finally started leaking. I was torn between tankless (have the gas for it) and tank. Ended up installing two Bradford White 50gal power vents in series. So there's 100gal of hot water on tap, first hr delivery is approx 140 gal. It almost seems to work like tankless really. Can take a 20 min shower, then fill a jacuzzi tub, run the hot drip to keep the bath warm, do that for half an hr and then take another 20min shower. Solid hot water the whole time, faster delivery, lower maintenance. Pretty happy w it.
Give me the RINNAI condensing unit each and every time!!! I like 96% efficient! I plumbed the whole house using manifolds and direct runs to each fixture (PEX A), danged if I want the water heater continually heating the water in the hot water lines. Furthest fixture takes 24 seconds to get HOT water, and as you showed in one of your earlier videos 10 feet of 1/2" PEX holds a little over ONE cup of water .. do the math. And being shower valves are anti-scald there is a blend of hot and cold, the shower head is 1.75 gpm .. do a little more math. I really like our RINNAI tankless water heater, I installed it by myself .. hardest part was lifting the 82 lb. unit to hang it on the wall. Easiest part was plugging it in! ;)
In the UK tankless is pretty common, though the same heater also does hydronic heating of the property over winter, so there's a secondary heat exchanger inside it. Though now discussion is going back to tanks (cylinders) so you can use solar and heat pumps as inputs for lower carbon heat.
My boss man is thinking of if and when they might donut with gas. Because he's thinking of the oil crisis that they may look into more electric or maybe even Hydrogen. What do you think about that?
And yeah. My boss has already put in a lot of electric water heating tanks. We've managed to get some good sources of simple vent less heaters that could work of solar no problem.
Hey Matt! We've had a Rinnai here in South Alabama for 20 yrs, It is a great unit and has served well despite being installed by people who claimed to know everything, but knew absolutely nothing about tankless and really screwed up royal installing our system. We also heat our home with a hot water coil: hydronic heat. Things have never been right & we've had so many headaches through the years. I know the Rinnai machine is not to blame. It's hard not to drool over this system or others like it that you show in your videos. It would be great to have someone that is really savvy come and iron out all the bugs and get this puppy running the way it was made to. Another other thing that distresses me is that we don't have the system flush set up. We are on well water that is not hard but there is a lot of calcium. Pardon the sob story, but things like this really do boil the blood!🤬
Nice to know about that recirculation valve.😀👍👊🤙
Matt, one thing that you didn’t mention, that I think is important is what the tank is made of… Is it copper or stainless steel? That’s a key selling point for me on commercial especially. I haven’t looked into the Rinnai lately, so I don’t know, but the Navien, that I installed in my house has a stainless steel tank… Or should I say reservoir…
You should check out the Bosch Greentherm line.
'I attended their WH training yesterday and I have to say they are phenomenal!
Right now every competitor to Navien are all using copper piping and heat exchangers
Also what's the scale dispersal technique, i recall some are designed to expand and contract to keep buildup at bay best possible
@@schnellfahren911 In the Bosch GreenTherm they basically put a "spring" (or coil) inside the copper tubes of the heat exchanger. This coil moves independently inside the tube which gently "scrubs" the inner wall and effectively prevents scale from forming.
Or causes a hole to be rubber through the walls due to constant friction. Plus having aggregate to help it because you are grinding the scale into the tubes
Couple things.. in a real world installation from tanked to tankless, the condensation drain isn’t really an issue, you could just utilize the drain pan line (I don’t see one in this video) for the purpose of draining the condensate drain and as a drain pan drain. If you install a condensate neutralizer filter you’re good to go.
Code doesn't allow that. Manufacturer says not to use any other condensate or shared drain as well. The issue is that condensate lines grow algae/mold (because people forget to clean them) and they can eventually get completely blocked. Not a big deal because you'll get a warning or the system will stop functioning, however, if your water heater ruptures, it's going to need all 3/4-1" of that drain line, and if it's partially blocked by algae, then it can't serve it's purpose and you can have overflow from the very drain meant to prevent it. So, go with a dedicated line for all condensate and drain pans. As a side note; a mechanical room I'm installing right now has 4 condensate lines, 2 TPR lines and 3 overflow drains. It's tempting to combine them, but experience/code says no.
A more energy efficient option than using a recirculating pump it is to locate your water heater(s) closer to your faucets. This may be difficult for existing buildings, but if you are building new, then design your house to accommodate this. Install multiple water heaters if your faucets are far away from each other. Also, insulate both your hot and cold water supply pipes. This is especially important if you do use a recirculating pump.
An added benefit to locating your water heaters close to your faucets (and any appliances that need hot water) is that you only need long runs of your cold water supply.
Exactly. We have our tankless less than 15ft from three bathrooms. Kitchen is maybe 20. Electric panel is 4’ from the tankless.
My water heater location in the basement is near laundry/kitchen/main floor bath, so getting hot water quickly is easy. But the 2nd bath is polar opposite end of the house and 2nd floor. I am so tempted to get that bathroom hot water locally. And there's a long utility closet along the backside of the bathroom, so all that plumbing is right there -- in the closet, not the wall -- to tap into overall.
Some comments made below about prolonging tanked heater by replacing anode rods often. True, the rods are very tight to remove. If you strong, you can do it but might damage the other solder joints in the process. I used impact wrench and made the task a lot easier. Similar to car mechanics work on tire lug nuts.
Dang it, Matt! Every time I watch your show I want to take your advice and "go buy one"! Keep up the great and informative work!
Except, you should read some of the comments as well. There are several comments that add things he may have forgotten or he just doesn't know. I always read the comments plus do my own research before making a decision.
Love the new product info, it really helps to know what is out there.
Coming from a plumber, that has worked on these a lot, I cation you about the recirculating line. If you don’t have the proper diameter pipe you can start to have pin hole leaks in your water distribution system.
Great video. Love my Rinnai! Has to be highest quality in the market. And I heard they are moving production into the U.S.!
Matt I have been subscribed for years and this is the first show of yours I have seen in months I don’t know what the you tube algorithm is doing to you but you should complain to them I love the show I hate when I can’t find it
Good info on installing tankless system, thanks.
Everyone in my area uses the Navian 240a which has a build in recirculate pump. But this is an interesting product.
I have a Navian 240. Does a good job but it makes a high pitch noise for a couple of second when it comes on. I can't figure it out as did the plumber.
We have a 200 year old Riverstone home in Pennsylvania and we had to go with two of those one for the three bathrooms and one for the kitchen and laundry, we have a large 1,000 gal propane tank outside and we haven't had any problems with that setup and its endless hot water
After recirculating the water into the cold water line , you must be getting tempered water out of the cold water side of the sink . Tempered water after all is a mix of hot and cold and we were always told not to use the hot water to make tea , coffee or drink it because it contains metals from the heater . Heat exchangers leak for many reasons but if one of them is from cavitation where did the material that was removed to cause that leak go ( right into the hot water ) . Maybe it would be best to add a dedicated return line with a smaller diameter tubing to keep the Hot Water separate .
Maybe a video on the install. Thanks for the video.
A couple of things to add:
(1) That cross over valve will be pushing your hot water through 1/2 inch lines. The difference between that configuration, and my implementing the 3/4 recirc line that I installed when building the house (but the plumbers had no idea how to utilize), was the difference between heating the water though all lines in 10 minutes, versus 30 seconds. It made THAT much difference. (Why, with a recirculating hot water heater, would you care how long it takes to circulate the water? Well, I'm on propane. We pretty much just push the recirc button when we want hot water in the downstairs faucets and bathroom, and turn it off afterwards. In other words, we don't set a schedule with the hot water continually running through the lines, to save on propane, because it only requires seconds to circulate though the house from beginning to water heater return. With the Rinnai Condensing recirc hot water heater, that brings our hot water heating costs down to maybe, $15 a month for a 2400 sq foot home. Anything you can do on a retrofit to create a 3/4" recirculation hot water line, will likely reduce your heating (gas or electricity) bill. It's not rocket science. Poke a hole out somewhere at the end of the line, and run that new hot water line over, under, outside, back to the tank. If your existing system has, for example, two supply legs, you can link them together at the end of both lines.
(2) On ANY, and I repeat, ANY tankless hot water system, add a 100 Micron, spin down sediment water filter on the OUTBOUND hot water line, to catch any debris that may come from the hot water heater. With a regular tank, that sediment settles to the bottom of the tank, and the amount of carry out of the tank through the top hot water supply pipe is minimal. With a tankless system, there's no place for that debris to go, but to your fixtures, clogging them up. In a severe case (as in, with very hard water), in a recirc system, that debris can foul your check valves causing problems (e.g. cold water running back up the hot water lines, giving the customers at the end of the circuit, cold showers). Even if your water supply has great PH, Rinnai recommends (I believe) flushing the system with something like vinegar to clean the tank annually. (In my case, with hard water, it's every 2 to 3 months.)
The Navien already has a built in sediment trap on the incoming cold water line to the tank. As far as hard water you need to treat your system to prevent that build up and eventual corrosion of your plumbing system.
@@HoyaNinja22 The Rinnai also has an incoming filter (and probably, all hot water heaters do), but regardless of your water quality, (and yeah, mine is an extreme case where my water is hard AND there are no good solutions to treat it, due to the build), sediment WILL exit your hot water heater. The spin down filter catches it, instead of your downstream faucets and other devices.
We have very hard water in Utah. In 2010 we gutted our prior house, piped everything in Pex including a recirc pump and 3/4" recirc line. We installed a good soft water unit that fed into the Rinnai and have had zero issues. Soft water is vital in keeping the tankless systems free of build up. There is a company out of Florida that designs their soft water systems based upon your water hardness and impurities. We have moved into a 1977 home and are planning our upgrades to include Pex, Insulated Recirc Line, Recirc Pump, Tankless, Soft Water and RO. After living with clean shower doors and endless hot water, it is a high priority to upgrade and enjoy.
Many of the better tankless models include recirc pumps and smart technology that learns the higher usage times and will run the pump accordingly. You can also integrate wireless switches and/or WiFi apps to turn on/off the pump making them more of a complete on demand system. For those without Recirc Lines, look into Aquamotion AMH3K-7N with the On Demand Kit and you can overcome the 5 minute wait for hot water in the 2nd floor shower.
@@innovativesolutionsav1684 I heard that Sodium Polyphosphate Balls (SILIPHOS) will reduce hardness in water and/or prevent hard water scale from forming. I've seen just about all the scam solutions (and have tried a few of them myself), so I was skeptical. However, I already had a basket strainer on the incoming water main line, so tossing some in there to try it wasn't much effort (though those things ARE pricy). Well, the verdicts still out. I installed them the last time I flushed out the tankless unit, and though we're a month or two past the normal 3-month flush schedule which has kept us out of trouble, still no indication of scale problems in the water heater. I had to pull the strainer while tapping the line to supply a new irrigation system, so it's been without the SILPROS for a couple of weeks. However, thus far, I'd give them a thumbs up. Even if I can reduce the flush schedule to twice annually, I figure it's a success (note: flushing a tankless W.H. is recommended annually in any case). I'll probably have to run the test a full year to know for certain.
On our second Rinnai. 1st lasted 15 years before it sprang a leak (I never descaled it). Probably would have lasted 20 years or more if I had descaled it-it’s a simple DIY.
My aunt allowed me to lease her rental cabin for a discount. It's close to where I work. So, I after I moved in, I noticed water on the cement adjacent to the water heater. I opened the door and saw water at the bottom from a compromised tank. Recently I was awe of tankless systems as it would be easy enough to convert too right there. However, I planned to move out come that winter as my job was moving to another location, plus I know nothing about repairing a tankless system and I didn't have time to take courses on how to fix one. So I got on the phone trying to find plumbers that work on them and I asked, "just off the bat, do you charge more for fixing a tankless heater," and I got two telephone numbers for guys that work on them. I asked them, "is it more expensive to work on a tankless system?" and each of them said, "it depends". Well that answers that question. I was asking for a Y/N answer. So I got another tank system and put it in that same day. I was surprised I even considered a tankless.
I have a tankless water heater that is 100% efficient: A Black & Decker 50 AMP electric flash heater. It's just my wife and I, so we don't need to run multiple hot water uses at the same time. We always take showers, so we only need about 1 gallon per minute. We can shower as long as we want, and it's temperature-controlled, so it's a steady 106 F. Best of all, the electricity costs us nothing because our solar grid-tied system has never generated a bill since we installed it years ago. It's small enough, we could install it right in the bathroom British-style if we wanted instant hot water. The cost: $168 at Lowes!
It’s a commercial.
Good commercial Matt! You should consider a career change or maybe you already have. You are great at it and getting better!
Agreed, the condensate drain is a hassle for retrofit
As a Rinnai ACE dealer I have installed 300+ of these Tankless units. Rinnai is a great unit.
Seeing as you might know, can that thermostatic circulation valve be purchased separately from Rinnai?
@@RobertClontz I can...... But would be very odd that you would ever need to purchase it. It comes with their units. I don't really see it working with other units
Would it not work because without a recirculation component, the hot water pressure would simply be equal with the cold water pressure (used for the recirculation line)? If so, that makes sense.
@@RobertClontz I believe you are correct also getting hot/warm water back on the cold side
Then you should know ... please reply ... I saw no cold weather protection. I live in Alaska, get to -30°F. Is there a kit?
Also, is there a way to disable recirculation, don't want heat my crawl space with this?
Thank you, I am in the market. I have a 120 gallon tub that far exceeds by 50 gallon tank.
On my second Rinnai in my new house. Previous "old" house (soon to be 100 YO) has a Rinnai (same model for both) that was 16 YO with "Zero" service issues. Traditional Tank types? Never, not ever again!
Navien is probably the best unit out there, we have very little trouble with them. The A model the only one we sell has a small liter size tank that stays at temperature. This eliminates several things. 1. when you turn on your hot water, hot water is on its way, no time difference from your old tank type. 2. No cold water sandwich. 3.No minimum flow rate. If you have a modern home with a large hot tub, the tankless will not only fill it but will be able to replace the massive heat loss they incur when turning on the bubbles. Will you use more gas? Of course, good things usually do cost more. Gas meters, at least in our area are supplied by the gas company, just a simple phone call and they replace the meter free of charge. Never understood that argument. The warranty on a Navien is 15 years on the exchanger and electronic components are relatively inexpensive. Dont buy a combi boiler! This is the latest craze. Modern boilers have outside reset controls and modulate output at a 10 to 1 ratio. Take my home for instance, my heat load is 36000 BTUs on a zero degree day. With a 70,000 BTU boiler I can modulate down to 7000. But this turndown ratio is based on input, most Combi boilers are 200,000 in, this means a minimum firing rate of 20,000. That would be ridiculous.
Great product, and Shamrock Plumbing is a great Company!
I'm all for new technologies & modern conveniences, but I naturally shy away from much more complex units when simpler and proven technology are still available. My current hot water tank is a standard 40 gallon natural gas fired tank with a pilot light. It doesn't need electricity to work. It was installed 21 years ago & it hasn't needed any service. Not even a new thermocouple. If it craps out tomorrow, I'll replace it with the same type. Simple, cheap & reliable trumps trendy complex & expensive when it comes to mechanical systems.
Very well explained thanks 💕
Nice unit Matt I have one in my house. Not that model but the brand.
I do not recommend these anymore to my clients though.
Please here me on this. They don’t work with the modern appliances. Biggest problem being washing machines.
They only fill with water for maybe 3 seconds then check the load. That does not give the tankless enough time.
I have been and still will be recommending the HTP hybrid on demand water heater.
Please put some thought into what I’m informing you in on, look at HTP and give me a response.
If this is news to you and you have a high efficacy washing machine do a load yourself and be listening to the heater.
Grace and Peace
Slick
I believe this is a hybrid unit with a small tank in it, and it provides recirculation function so the pipe will have hot water in it nearly continuously.
@@rcmrcm3370 So completely nullifying any (dubious) benefits of this system.
I have 2 rinnai, 1 only hot water and one combo (heat and hot water) no issues had them for 6 years. Runs 3 washers simultaneously..
While washing machines CAN use hot water, manufacturers have been trying to educate people for years that you will get perfectly fine results with just cold water. In fact, they recommend not using hot water. But people are slow to evolve. Old dogs and new tricks.
Maybe you should learn English if you want people to listen to you.
Could you explain the advantages to an electric tankless vs. a gas (propane) tankless? Please!
If you're in America, electric tankless is only used for seldom-used points because they can't flow hot water for very long. If you're in other parts of the world, that's not the case necessarily. The difference is how they get power. In America we only have 220 volts. .. and that's if you run a dedicated line and if your service supports the extra amperage.
In Europe you might have 440v, which lets you need less current, smaller/cheaper electric wiring, all while using a heater than can compete with gas for performance. In other words that product doesn't exist for Americans.
I have two Rinnai tankless water heaters, one in our house and one in our rental house next door. Love them both, when it comes to the non condensing vs. condensing, if you have a drain I would only go with the condensing, overall cost isn't much different and losing 10% efficiency isn't worth it. I also wouldn't use the concentric vent unless it mounted on an outside wall. The separate 2" PVC air inlet and outlet on other models is extremely cheap and easy to deal with.
Any recommendations for **electric** opposed to the propane/natural gas?
The set so reminds me of the Home Improvement episode when on ToolTime, Tim made pneumatic stilts!!!!
That concentric vent could improve efficiency slightly, exchanging heat from the exhaust to the intake air. Would be interesting to see how much.
Thanks for the info Matt! 😃👍🏻👊🏻
Rinnai and Bosch are the best.
Looks like a nice unit with the built in recirc. pump. A recirc. pump would not work well in my 50's house. The water heater is actually quite centrally located with respect to the hot water fixtures. However, there are two separate hot water pipe runs, one to the kitchen and the other to the bathrooms. The bathrooms are maybe 50% farther away than the kitchen, but the hot water in the kitchen is used more frequently. So where to put that single thermal bypass valve? I looked into the cost savings on water with a recirc. setup and it would take many decades to pay for the install. Maybe if the local water utility had a decent rebate program (hint, hint!), then it might make sense.
I went with a condensing unit for my retrofit install. Condensate was not an issue as the clothes washer and standpipe drain was right next to the water heater. Also, it was in a garage on a shared wall with the house. So venting out the wall wasn't an option. Was able to use PVC venting that ran up through the roof in place of the old tank venting. Also, the condensing model I chose could run on the existing 1/2" gas line vs. a non-condensing model of similar capacity would need a new 3/4" gas line run.
So it's always best to look at the entire install and consider the whole system cost. In my case, what was saved on gas piping and venting could be put towards a more efficient heater and with the recent rise in natural gas prices, that's paying off big. Going tankless cut my gas use and bill by over 80% compared to the old 40 gal. tank.
I cannot believe with all the experience we all have had with these machines trying to predict our behavior that anyone believes they will work for anyone that’s not on a comically steady routine while living in a really well built, modern, small home.
I hope they offer one without the “smart” features for those of us who have considered hoarding thermostats that actually work.
Look at Navien they have a unit almost exactly similar and you have better options with the settings
@@HoyaNinja22 interesting, I’ll look.
Check out the Smart Recirculation Control if you want and on demand control without running wires for buttons or sensors.
Love the cat sound when he threw the empty box.
Problem with recirc is the unit never really gets to turn off since the water in the lines is always cooling down so essentially you are never 'on demand'. It will basically kill your electricity usage during the 20 hours in the day you aren't actually using hot water.
Using the recirc valve also means you no longer have any cold water without waiting for new water to enter the pipes.
a day late and a dollar short,,
I just finished changing the tank to on demand in the mother in laws house about an hr ago,,
went with rheem and it went pretty smooth and works fine,, its a 900 sq ft house with one 85 yr old women so I dont expect much trouble from it,,
thanks
How much was the unit?
@@brendenm4338 with the rebate at menards I think around 680.00
my wife picked it up,,
oh another 150 for the valve kit and extras,,
No thanks I sold tankless for 8 years ,I'll keep changing my Angel rod's every two years in my 20 y.o. glass lined 50 gallon tank.Average cost for permits and installation on Tankless before pandemic was average $3500, Tank$ 1300 here in las vegas.Great video for new home builds,and they are easier to replace after 10-20 years like a tank, just rember dont use a Water Softner folks that will kill heaters faster then anything
$3,500? That's the going rate for a tank replacement. With a simple, cheap HD unit. Tankless are double that at least. And even more if input or output upgrades are required. (New venting is always required!).
But, still cheaper than the $6,000 to $8,000 I've been quoted for a heat pump water heater installation. And that assumed I would provide the 240V, 30A service. (I was planning to steal the electric dryer circuit from the nearby breaker box because I have a gas dryer)
Everything construction related in CA is off the charts these days. My neighbor paid $20,000 for an exterior house repaint to a couple of unlicensed, undocumented two years ago! Actual licensed pros were too busy to even offer him an estimate.
Sorry gotta say a heat pump water heater is a better option for most anyone these days
He made a previous video saying so as well, but he’s getting paid to make this one. 🤷♂️
Here it is. “Water Heater Buying Guide 2022”
th-cam.com/video/wt95SE2ogNI/w-d-xo.html
SORRY YOU ARE WRONG
@@daveklein2826 ok davey
@@mattbrew11 If that wad your GEEBLE attempt to slam me Skippy.....you FAILED just like everything you do
We have owned a tankless water heater for the past 25years. They are great for taking showers with a large household. They suck for laundry, dishwashers and all other hot water usages.
I have seen several of these Rinnai units 15+ years still running strong
I think that’s a huge plus on this units by Rinnai… my last house had a Rinnai unit that lasted 15+ before I moved
The Japanese units are great. I have a Noritz hanging on the side of the house that hasn’t been touched since it was installed. Oh yeah, it’s a 2006…. We have the remote in the Kitchen and turn it to 160F to wash the dishes. They come out freaking spotless.
@@williamj1969 is Nortiz still in business ?
@@jasonpatterson947 oh yes sir. I have lost touch with their standing in the market. Back when I get this one they had several advantages that made them last a long time like the thickest all copper heat exchangers in the market, rock solid electronics etc… I don’t know if they still produce that top quality product or not but I’d go for another one. 16 years and haven’t even descaled it once although it needs it now. It will trip out due to overheating if you set the temp below 135F. Meh, I’ll get around to it one day. In all seriousness though, I hung it on the wall and have never had the cover off since. As said earlier, I will support any Japanese heater; Noritz, Rinnai, Takagi. Probably in that order though unless there is something that has changed that I’m unaware of.
I have a Bosch that is more than 20 years old. It's the 125X model. Piezoelectric ignition. No plug needed.
The downside? Five years ago I replaced some bathroom sink fixtures as part of a remodel project. They flow at 1.2 GPM. The Bosch won't come on at this rate. It requires 1.5 GPM.
;-(
My tankless water heater stopped working last summer and I called a plumber and he tried to sell me on a new Rinnai heater. He told me that since my heater was 10 years old, it was past it’s service life and it would be best to replace it at a cost of $6k. I did a little searching online and ordered a new igniter and one other small part for a total of $42. It’s been working fine ever since. I also learned you should flush them with vinegar at least every year to clean the deposits out. You just need a $50 submersible pump, a bucket and some washing machine hoses.
Sounds about right. $6K bill instead of $42 better for the plumber.
Thanks for the demo/info...👨🌾🚜👨🌾
I wanted to go tankless but in talking to my plumber he said the gas meters in town won’t handle the furnace, stove and water heater BTU wise and would have to change to larger gas line! He said he had done it his house because the wife wanted that! Said it was really expensive to make all the changes!
Also, it’s not gonna last 20 years unless the home owner descales once a year. If you’re on well water or have hard water, more often than that.
Maybe pretreat the water? You can’t descale every weekend.
I put a A.O. Smith descaler plus an A.O. Smith whole house filter along with a A.O. Smith pre-and post filters set up on my Rinnai…
Find fault with that now
@@jsbrads1 he did say drop in replacement for a tank heater. Which is why he didn’t go with a condensing 95%+. Adding in pre-treatment makes it a lot more complicated
@@Casmige the fault is still the inefficiency of tankless vs a heat pump water heater
I have always loved tankless water heaters. In the old old days, the restrictions were insane, with double wall pipes and clearance.
We are looking at an older home and this will be our first upgrade. I have always been a Rinnai fan.
Nice option in areas where replacement of gas appliances with gas appliance are legal
Why not just use that cold water from the hot tap to brush your teeth before you get into the shower. By the time you have finished brushing your teeth, rinsing your toothbrush, the hot water will be right there nothing wasted.
I need to get mine configured to work with this. Then we have hot water sooner. :)
I have not been able to find gas consumption rates. THAT info would be very helpful. Yes, inlet water temp will vary, but at least give us a good example of propane requirements.
In times of extreme natural gas prices, I think this is the best solution to get rid of the $300 tank that never breaks, and buy a $1000 gas heater with a bunch of electronics and a stone-collecting electric pump that will most likely fail right after the warranty expires.
Lol yep
10:42 ad. What a waste.
Exactly, timing to promote such useless grid addiction couldn't be more odd.
Did you know that you can transform old oil heaters into external emergency wood/wood pallets heaters with a few easy steps?
Totally.
Tankless water heaters use much less electricity or natural gas than a tank water heater.
Would this not give you at least warm water from your cold tap?
NOT
I see Matt, I click !
Note that for whatever reason, the video image is reversed when he is talking about the bypass line and which side is hot and which side is cold (you can see the printing on his shirt is mirror-image). All plumbers know that hot goes on the left!
The whole purpose of a On Demand water heater is that it is shut off until it's needed... having a recirculating circuit makes this unit dribble constantly. Not needed.
My Two Cents
Your two cents means NOTHING
@@daveklein2826 Don't be a jerk, Dave. No need for it here. Matt may not have made it clear: the circ pump only comes on when needed. For most of the day the water is stationary and the unit is off. When hot water is called for (motion sensor in bathroom, or unit triggered by bath light switch being turned on) the pump starts and gets that hot water to its destination quick.
I have a Watts hot water circulator on my conventional hot water tank and it works well. It's very basic, and starts by time clock: fifteen minutes before I get out of bed. It uses the same little thermostatic valve tied to the cold line. My wife just loves it.
@@paulmaxwell8851 Your two cents means NOTHING
@@daveklein2826
Yes about as worthless as that water heater...
Make sure you hook it up to Siri and your smart doorbell, so it can activate when it sees you pull into the driveway.
Weeeeeeeeeee!
Exactly. And furthermore that little plastic valve won't allow enough flow to turn the tankless water heater on. Check out the Smart Recirculation Control if you want an on demand hot water recirculation solution without having to run wires and install buttons and sensors all over your house. They have solutions for both dedicated recirculation loops and dead end systems like Matt is talking about, but their valve flows higher volume so it actually works with tankless water heaters.
I replaced 2 - 50 gal tanks in the house I just bought. One was in the attic and already showing signs of rusting and leaking. Bought one Rinnai to replace them both. Would never go back to a tank water heater.
Doesn’t that valve that dumps the hot water into the cold line make your cold water hot?
It opens at room Temp, so it's the same temp as your other lines.-edit- so maybe?
Wen $500 rinnai whole-home tankless!?
That would be game changing 🥳
Tankless is on the way out, with high gas prices. Heat pump is where it's at.
The electrical grid in most places can not handle the load now. Solar pannels & wind are not realistic in a majority of this world, at least not yet. I live in Alaska, you have to have a lot of sun, which we do in the summer but not the winter. Wind you need wind. My side of town, West does not get much wind. The East side of town gets hurican force winds reguarly.
Also, the ebenflo of life, we used to all be on electric to heat our homes etc before the 80s. Now we are almost all on natural gas, I do not see people going backwards.
In reality the amount you spend on hot water is not enough to justify changing anything.
@@AkSonya1010 the grid will be expanded, not a problem. Electrical grid operators would love to make more money and sell you more electricity, believe me
When the power is out during a midwinter storm, I still have plenty of heat and endless hot water from my Rheem propane tankless. Even at $4.30 per gallon that peace of mind is priceless. Even if I get heat pump AC - if my state ever implements the new rebates - I'll still keep my propane hookup for when it gets real.
Heat pump still have to have either gas or electric primary
About 15 years ago we had a tankless, Bosch I believe, but went back to a tank for the following reasons: 1) After two years of use, the repair tech was not able to get it to start properly (propane)... the burner would fire up for a couple seconds and then fault out. Performing the regular recommended flushes/cleaning did not help. 2) Could never wash clothes in hot water. The washer would fill using several calls for hot water. Every time the water was shut off and then turned back on a few seconds later, the tankless would re-start its heating process, putting several seconds of cold water in the hot water circuit. The unit we had did not have any way to keep heating after the flow was stopped. If the flow stopped, the heating stopped, completely. The end result was that the washer never washed in anything warmer than luke warm water.
What did I like about it? When it was off, it consumed NO gas, period. As long as it was running and I had propane, I would never run out of hot water. I was able to select the exact desired temp for our shower using the remote... this way, cold water was not used at all to lower the temp of the hot water down to the temp that was comfortable in the shower.... We LOVED that feature.
The only way I would return to a tankless is if we could overcome the on-off cycle problem we had with the clothes washer.
In NZ we mostly wash in cold water supply. Washes heat when neccessary.
Your experience has me thinking not to go tankless ... our new washer does the same thing, at one point in the cycle it turns water on and off every few seconds. It's kinda stupid, actually. Just one more reason for the water valves in the washer to fail sooner probably.
@@thenexthobby Agreed. Although, in the past 30 years, I've had two washers. The only things that I've had to repair (done them myself) was the door boot (front load), water pump and direct drive motor. Never a valve. But back to the point of water cycling.... My recent research suggested that some of the newer tankless have a feature that allows you to keep the heater running for 1-2 minutes after the water flow stops, in order to combat this exact problem without having a hot water return loop. When my tank heater starts giving out (electric) I may just give tankless another try... that is after I verify that it will stay running for a period of time.
Tempering tank. Or, point of use.
If the recirculation pump feature was smart, it would detect the pressure change on the hot line and warm up the hot water line. A timer may work for folks on a fixed schedule. It's wasteful for folks on a schedule that's unpredictable. Also, the recirculation pump system could distinguish between an open faucet and broken line, to prevent heating and pumping when a pipe or hose breaks.
This type of system is common in the UK and Europe, though, ours are usually "condenser combi boilers" and it has a separated diverter valve for heating and then for hot water, heating recirculates water in the radiators and then has a separate function for heating water for washing up or showers. My parents had a tank (immersion heater) when I grew up, ended up having a series of inline water heaters that were stupidly expensive to run and they finally did an install of a combi boiler last year - what a difference to spend on heating alone!
We generally use gas-powered though in the UK at least.
And about to be banned in favour of Heat Pumps. The US seems to be 20 years behind.
@@BS25999 They won't ban ones already fitted, and heat pumps are shown to not work efficiently in poorly insulated/poorly air sealed houses- which 95% of the UK is! But whens that ever stopped the Gov making the correct call...
@@Jack-OfAll-Trades Heat pumps work just fine in poorly insulated houses. The difficulty in retrofitting a heat pump to an old building is that you need to fit larger radiators or under floor heating.
The tankless heater takes way longer time to heat up. I got a Rinnai non-condense version, and it could take tens of seconds to reach the target temperature(115F) by reading the outgoing water temperature in the diagnose mode.
I was thinking about going with a tankless for my full house reno project... but the electric requirements are like 3 40 amp double pole breakers for 5gpm. I decided to go the traditional route and just install a tank lol
Tankless in Europe is mostly electric and yes, you'll need more than a typical house of yester-year. Most modern houses are built with 200-250 amp service, so electric tankless is not that difficult.
It seems you was looking at tankless that runs by only electricity. Rinnai needs a low 120 ac volt with 15 amp. That u can plug in to a regular house outlet.
I’m putting in a heat pump water heater. Don’t know of any tankless or even hybrid options for that, sadly, but we need to stop extracting carbon from the ground. HP water heaters are easily powered by renewables; I wish the industry would do more to integrate solar thermal for hot water.
Your dreaming.
@@donhuffer5167 You’re.
If you put in a recirculation pump with a heat pump water heater you will need to use a smart control to prevent the pump from running all the time and causing the tank to cool down. Rheem has a technical bulletin on the problem. The Smart Recirculation Control solves this problem for HP water heaters.
There's no way solar panels on a basic home scenario could provide anywhere near enough electricity to power one of these bad boys. Maybe you need to think about solar on a net major grid level which wouldn't involve the hot water heater industry at all.
@@ssdkilla rooftop solar can easily power even a resistive heater. A heat pump heater would be no problem. What it can’t do is power a gas heater, even if it comes from somewhere else, which is why we shouldn’t be installing gas heaters.
I don't normally comment because I don't usually know anything. Nice video, that's quite a mockup! And the camera/editing was good.
1) But you say that it's a non-condensing unit, which is good for places without a drain. But isn't that white PVC on the bottom left a drain? So that seems to defeat the point.
2) With that nifty plastic contraption to turn the cold water line into a return for the hot water, now you have 100°+ hot water coming out of all the cold taps, and you have to wait just as long as before for cold water now instead of waiting for hot. And having the water come out immediately at full hot temperature seems dangerous, we never use full hot in our house.
3) That intake/exhaust pipe is super cool. But how do the fittings work? Like, bends, extensions, etc. I assume all of those connections would have to be fully sealed on the inside (the aluminum part). I wonder how that's handled.
Reem going on 28 years and running strong long. Never serviced. I want a tankless though. lol
😊make a video about venting through an attic. I own a town home and cant vent it directly outside. It has to go through the attic.
Hey Matt I have older home with the vent pipe going through the roof will rinnai still work for me. Thanks
It seems to me that central water heating should be replaced by point-of-use on demand water heaters, as this would eliminate the need for recirculation pumps, and reduce the wait time for hot water.
I have the exterior, condensing version of this. The valve really does work. You get about 70% of the effectiveness of an actual loop for no cost. That's amazing.
But.
The smart stuff all doesn't work. The wifi module doesn't work and you need a fair amount of competence reading the lit or a good plumber to set it up and make control adjustments. The connect to your phone stuff all doesn't work (3 warranty claims trying to get it to work before literally giving up lol)
Luckily - there isn't a dedicated realistic NEEEED to schedule the water heater, so I let it go. If you look up Rinnai forums, you'll see a hundred passed off plumbers also complaining about this and their damn salesmen saying it will do stuff that doesn't work on it because of their buggy and literally unworkable software.
It performs admirably and way better than my previous tanked.
8 out of 10 stars.
If I lived in the south and already had a tank water heater in the attic, then I would get a HPWH and have a super efficient water heater that also cooled my attic.
Matt Truma have a Aqua Go Comfort Plus model that has a recirculation pump.
I have spoken to several plumbers over the years as they were installing tankless to replace the old hot water tanks. All of them to a man will not have them in their own homes. If the customer has an old electric water heater , said customer must spend up to 1800 dollars to upgrade the panel box. The other downside plumbers have told me is the tankless units only last about 5 years. For five years of service , seems like a lot of money to spend. Not trying to piss on your parade but people should know the drawbacks to switching to tankless. I cannot speak to the longevity of gas fired tankless units , however , I believe the life expectancy of those are about 6 years. Most standard water heaters gas or electric can last 12 to 15 years and cost about 6 to 8 hundred dollars plus the fee for installation.
I would have assumed most water heaters would be in the mechanical closet along with the furnace and evap coil so the condensate drain is right there.
The condensate that comes from condensing gas appliances is highly acidic.
You cannot run it into copper and many cities make you clean it with a neutralizer in line first before adding to sewage lines.
Just wondering with the circulation valve, wouldn’t the cold side suffer by possibly not be totally cold at times?
If you have condensation drains for your HVAC, can’t you just use that for the tankless h2o condensation drain needs?
Matt , Thank you and all the commenters on this. I have a question regarding the Thermal Bypass valve... I also have a shower which is in the bathroom furthest from the water heater. You said to mount the bypass valve under the sink area, but will that also accommodate the shower and its hot water needs???Please advise, Thank You! Tom J.
4:49 So what do I do with all the hot water in my cold line? Now I need to turn on the cold tap ahead of time instead of the hot to wait for it?
It just seems better to me to have two water heaters. One for each end of the house.
Put one in our Off-Grid home. Motor sounds like it's going to take off after just a year in service. Just waiting for it to go out but am sure I can just replace the motor. Not a big deal for anyone who knows what a Phillips is but still.
Regarding the sink connection drawing with fancy thermal bypass valve, if its open and hot water is constantly being pumped around the circuit, how does the basin get cold water? Wouldn't the cold line also be hot?
The valve allows hot water to reach the sink, but then closes. When you call for cold water you first flush a bit of warm water out before the cold arrives. A minor inconvenience, in my opinion, because it's the hot you really want. Those circ pumps are great for all homes where waiting for hot water is wasteful. The one I installed, a Watts brand, saves a lot of water in a year, important as I'm on a well.
@@paulmaxwell8851 Thanks for your answer Paul, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. Normally a hot water loop has a dedicated line that returns to the hot water service and the cold water has its own line to the sink. In this case (according to the drawing) the hot supply and return are connected to the cold water line. So does the hot water return line (on the cold side) switch over to cold supply automatically within the hot water supply sending cold water back to the sink? If so, the warm / hot water in the return line would have to be flushed out before cold water would come out, is that right?
Can one of you tankless water heater guys do a video about combining your tankless with a water softener? I miss my soft water but I was going through a lot of rusted out regular water heaters. I need to see that they can play nice together. Do Rinnai warranties cover salt based water softeners?
I tankless water heater. The only thing, that I don't like, is I have run the water to get hot water. So, the only time I run it, is when I do my laundry and dishes together. Other than that, I love it. I have a 1,000 square foot house. I believe my tankless water heater is condescending water heater. I'll have to install crossover valve under kitchen sink. I thought of installing a recirculation pump.