I don't need to see your evidence. If you're going to break cannon in the first 3 minutes of your video, I'm not wasting my time. Honestly, you lost me at "Cloaks don't work in atmosphere!" As we repeatedly see it working in atmosphere in ST:IV, and the movie plot would have been completely broken if it wasn't working. 1980s US military would have been all over Golden Gate Park. In fact we see Sulu flying the plastic sheets into the cloaking field, showing that very clearly the field does work in a gas environment. So I'm sorry, but I'm done watching your 'retread' video at this point.
For the starters, Federation always could have a clock. It was not an advanced tech in 24'th century. Like it was in 23'th century. Federation just as good will gesture agree to not develop this tech. Because in Federation doctrine at the time, they didn't need it. And TBH they break it already with Section 31 spy ships, what pretend to be Federation mining freighters (we actually see those in Strange New World). But that is beside the point as S31 was illegal.
I don't think Enterprise-B was lost way before Enterprise-C, considering that from 2290's they clearly intend it as diplomatic ship. It would make no sense to have mayor delay. Though if someone do not like epidemic as ending, it is entirely possible that actual event was covered up. TBH is Romulans and Klingons together decided that Federation cross the line, it probably was something major.
Captain: We can't find the cloaking device. Once Wesley Crusher tested it, it vanished into a pocket universe. For that matter, we can't seem to locate Dr. Crusher, either.
Here's an interesting point: Wasn't Kirk living in the shadow of Captain Pike? Pike commanded the Enterprise for at least 10 years before he turned command of the ship over to Kirk. And Pike was alive and well for a portion of Kirk's captaincy of the Enterprise, up until Pike got delta radiation poisoning.
You are right, Kirk is the second captain... There was a TOS where Pike came on board for a trial and was questioned about a top secret event while he was a comadoor. (Not sure how to spell it but it sounds like that is how it is should be)
My personal head canon is that the Enterprise B survived, and was decommissioned. Star Trek has an unrealistic trend of Enterprises being destroyed with the count maybe being at 6/8 (NCC-1701, B, C, D, E, F). That's an awfully high rate. a ratio of more like 3/8 (NCC-1701, C, D) seems much more reasonable to me. If a ship had so many of its previous incarnations lost as 5 or 6 out of 8 it would not build a reputation of being the best of the best, it would build a reputation of being a cursed name.
The Enterprise-F wasn't destroyed, though, she was decommissioned. We don't know what exactly happened to the Enterprise-B, but she clearly didn't make it to be decommissioned when you consider that the only Enterprises at the ship museum were the NX-01, A, D, and eventually F. (1701, C, & D were confirmed destroyed, and they literally revived the D thanks to a rebuild project with the retrieved saucer and a donor engineering section.) The only ones left ambiguous are the B & E. Whatever canonically happened to the Enterprise-E was clearly after Worf stepped down from being the commanding officer ("It was not my fault!"). I don't think ANY TNG Era or Lost Era media as of yet has even bothered to canonically explain the Enterprise-B's fate...which is kinda silly.
What I do agree with is that it's more than likely the Federation employed cloaking devices prior to Algeron. Considering a cloaks usability for de-escalation, I.E. 'we don't have to fight if they can't find us', I can't see why they wouldn't imediatly start trying to employ them. I don't see them doing a lot of sneaky shit beceuse, well, Feddies are a bunch of little goody two shoes. Albeit a goody two shoes packing a .44 mag. What I don't agree with is the lack of Yeager based content on this channel! Frankly what better ship to strap a cloak to than the Federations very own boot leg BOP!?!
I have absolutely no problems with the Excelsior Block 2s having cloaking devices, never have even when I was watching TNG with the Treaty of Algeron in place. It just made sense to have them. There was plenty of time between the Enterprise Incident and the Treaty of Algeron where they'd have no legal reason not to equip ships with cloaks and plenty of good reasons to do so. We just never saw our heroes in a situation where they needed to use them. The closest I can think of off the top of my head would be the rescue of Kirk from Rura Penthe, and who's to say they weren't using it then. They were able to bluff the Klingon outpost fairly effectively after all, and this would have been a 23rd Century cloak, not the "Nobody's here except this random space anomaly" cloaks that the 24th Century Romulans had. As Captain Harriman, I feel for the guy. He seemed like a reasonably competent officer with astoundingly bad luck. It was just a quick jaunt around the solar system, a dog-and-pony show for the press to crow about the Old Guard handing off to the next generation. Oh, crud, a distress call. Well we have to answer it. OK we got the survivors out but we're stuck. Oh Kirk and his friends have a plan. Great we're free... What do you mean Kirk is dead?! I never had the chance to read the lost era books, but what I've seen of the synopses doesn't seem to contradict my view of Harriman, and as for him snapping during the Tomed Incident, I can see it happening. Some people are just not psychologically prepared for basically wiping out civilians on a massive scale. I'm civilian and have no knowledge about the matter, but it would be obvious IMO that modern ballistic missile sub captains need to be of a certain psychological profile, maybe with Starfleet they didn't think to test him on that and he turned out to be someone who was fragile enough that he couldn't bear the thought of what would be essentially mass murder. (Good enough to deal with most combat situations, but not for this type of mission)
It’s the same company that designed the emergency steering column on the enterprise e for insurrection. They are also the ones who put the airlock on the Oberth class bridge.
What it also explains, is why the Excelsior Fight-2 isn't as common as expected. After the Treaty of Algeron the areas in question the volume would have been repurposed for sensors. I came up with variant Flight 2A which expands on the stardrive section, and incorporated Ambassador class components which is what disappeared in 2329.
However no onscreen evidence is provided that the B or any other ship had a cloaking device. This is Star Trek not Star wars, books mean nothing if it's not on screen it doesn't happen, it's as simple as that. All of you thinking it's on ships it's your head canon and head canon means nothing when it comes to actual canon.
@@valor1omega Dude, why come to a fan lore channel to say fan lore doesn't happen. I can be critical of some of Venom's takes but saying "Well it's not canon" just makes you look like an idiot.
The Enterprise A had one too. In the novelization of Star Trek VI, Capt Spock and Crew decided against using their cloak to bluff past a Klingon security outpost. This was added to the on screen dialogue about the unknown saboteur
@@venomgeekmedia9886 that would be an interesting episode about starfleet doctrine of cloak warfare before the treaty. Would Star fleet adopt a shot to disable mentality or shoot to kill.
If they'd admitted that they'd found the Bounty, the Klingons would have demanded that they return it. Just like that time the US Navy retrieved pieces of a Soviet SSBN that sank, and when the Soviets asked "Hey there, what are you doing with that big salvage ship and those support ships near where our sub went missing?" and the Navy just came back with "Just conducting environmental studies and stuff, totally legit, bro, trust me."
@@vishnu79 They also could have found parts of the Bounty but not the whole thing, San Francisco bay has many heavy currents so the Bird of Prey could have been spread over a long area and Starfleet just "failed" mention they did recover parts of it like the cloaking device.
@@florians.849 It's easy to assume they later recovered the hull and repaired it, just because most of the hull is intact it doesn't mean small pieces like the cloaking device couldn't have be gotten loose on the crash and floated away.
@@vishnu79 At least up until the aftermath of the Battle of Narenda III, in which case, the Klingons would've been like "nah, we knew you had her the entire time! We're good!"
Starfleet is not going to leave but damaged alien ship at the bottom of San Francisco Bay if the warp core blew up it would be worse than a hydrogen bomb going off it will completely destroy the city it might render the entire state uninhabitable God knows how much radiation and shit that would put out and it might be worse than a nuclear bomb going off by antimatter explosion in the atmosphere and who knows what kind of toxins and contaminants you know since it's an alien ship can be spreading Earth's atmosphere the complete completely poisoned the planet so yeah they're not going to allow that they'll have that sumbitch out of there in a day or two we could raise our submarines From the Bottom of the Sea in 1980 well they only got half of it the America did that to a Russian submarine in 1980 they got half of it off the bottom of the sea it was a deep sea drilling platform or some shit but really they was a you know stealing that Russian submarine and I did get half of it and new kind of nuclear reactor it was I think it was a big Oscar class
The fact that the whole treaty banning the federation from having cloaks is a thing suggests they were definitely using cloaking devices 100%. It wouldn't make any sense for the Romulans to be so touchy as to put it into the treaty, unless the federation was actively using it during their little war. I do like the creation of this lore, though I don't think the federation would sneak attack colonies, or just attack colonies in general. That is definitely something that the federation would frown upon.
If you watch the tomed incident it will make more sense. They probably were military targets but inevitably there's a civilian population alongside it.
I take it as read that the Federation would not glass civilian population centers, but the Romulans WOULD, and they would assume the Federation would too.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I did watch it before I watched this one, I just felt like they probably wouldn't even take that risk. Idk if starfleet has the capability to stealth way into romulan space, they for sure would of reconed the planets in question and saw they were civilians. I guess they could of just been large military institutions with dense civilian populations around them. I don't remember exactly how you framed it in the video. Either way, the likelihood that they wouldn't recon planets they plan on preemptively striking is pretty low in my opinion. With that in mind, I doubt starfleet would actively ok a all out preemptive attack on a military or non military target if there were significant civilian populations around it. Even given the highly militarized state of Star fleet at the time. But that could lead to some interesting plot points, where starfleet realizing how far removed from their core being, has let themselves be ok with such horrorific attacks. It would also play into some mindsets we see in TNG, where clearly the federation has been super relaxed about being prepared for war. The cardassian war I feel like should of been a easy sweep for the federation. Then the borg almost wiping out the home of the federation, its only during the leadup to the dominion war where they almost return to that militarized state. Honestly if i were the federation, Id actively keep up a couple of fleets just purely built for war, just orbiting around in the federation. they dont have to even be that massive of fleets, but fleets that if needed, can easily be sent to defend the frontier. Something to give enemies pause before attacking. I still though doubt that they would. Its more likely in my mind that you take the tomad story you have created (which is very good) but replace the motivations for peace like this: Federation with stealth technology during the incident posed such a great threat to the Romulan navy, that they demanded the federation never use it again. Probably because they suffered heavy fleet loses during the war, whereas for the federation they sought the mutual removal of Planetary warheads after the romulans basically evaporate several federation colonies. Anyways a good video, its fun to see and im expecting more more to come.
@@phoenixyo9987 We see what Enterprise D era Starfleet is prepared to do in war and we see what Archer is prepared to do in war, with the order in A Taste Of Armegeddon fire on the planet being a sign that in TOS Star Fleet has provision to be ruthless in that era. Then factor in that the Romulans have the largest amount of baggage for Starfleet and I can see it being viable.
An interesting time to do an overview of post-2293 Enterprise-B. If the Ent-B is MIA, one can hope it gets recovered like the USS Stargazer. And yes, I agree that the Enterprise-B having a cloak is a reasonable assessment, as provided by all the ing evidence.
Interesting points on the likeliness of Starfleet actually having cloaking devices. That aside - I'm not sure how I feel about that "stretched" Excelsior secondary hull concept. I kinda like it, but at the same time, it feels off. But I gotta ask - was the Ent-B's cloak installed in time for Generations, or was that also planned for Tuesday? Re: The Bounty. If you wanted to find it, just hang some chains or nets or something off the back of a ship and just trawl it back and forth across the Bay until they snag on something. Investigate what it snagged on. Eventually, TADA~ Klingon BoP found, cloak up or down. That being said, Starfleet might have "lost" the ship in the Bay in order to reduce tensions with the Klingons and then later the Romulans. Also, love the SG-1 ref. That might be my favorite episode of the series. I honestly hope the Ent-B's fate continues to be left unsaid for alpha canon. Having a little mystery in the lineage is interesting.
@@ah7910 Yo, did you call me a bot because I want to see more from an Enterprise and Captain that hasn't been done to death? Are you really this paranoid about space fiction? 🤣
Rumor has it that Star Fleet command is still desperately pouring through ships logs, build schematics, and crew manifests, looking for the right combination of mystical charms, to produce another ship named Enterprise with lucky streak as great as Enterprise A. Enterprise B disappears without a trace, Enterprise C is lost in battle against the Romulans, and Enterprise C losses a fight to a single Klingon bird of prey, RIKER!
Star Trek Picard made note the Bounty was sitting on the bottom of the bay due to the cloak managing to turn on. Which you really would have assumed the device wouldn't operate in water, but the neat thing is the Klingon ship was able to be submerged in water without damaging the ship to heavily.
I really like this explanation. It even makes sense if why there weren't more of this hull style. I like your work. I don't nessisarely agree with everything in all your videos... heck, I think Michael Okuda screwed up more than a few concepts... but you're one of the best theorists I have stumbled across in a long time.
When was The Bounty cloaked again in The Bay? I remember them on that chin strap in The Bay uncloaked before it sinks. It's been a while since I've watched 4 so I could be forgetting something.
I assume something malfunctioned on the way to the sea floor and it reactivated. It really doesn’t make sense that they couldn’t find it but it makes for a fun story so I think it’s cannon.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 ok, so not canon to the prime timeline in my head canon. LOL. Everything after First Contact is a skewed timeline as far as I'm concerned. So the Enterprise is in that new timeline as well as the kelvin and kurtzman Trek. So STP is the Picard from the Enterprise future. If that makes any sense. It also makes the Spock in 2009 the Spock from the Future of Enterprise. It's a little convoluted but it seems to be able to explain away all the garbage kurtzman is getting wrong.
@@brodyalves1861 Even if it did cloak from a malfunction, why would they let a treasure trove of Intel just at the bottom of San Francisco Bay? Like, it should have been a walk in the park finding it.
@@BaronFeydRautha Priorities. Had to work on rebuilding the Earth from the planetwide damage inflicted by the probe. Now, maybe by the time Star Trek V: The Final Frontier starts, they'd have already went back and scooped it up? We may never know exactly when they got that bad bird out, but we know they absolutely got her...
That stretched Excelsior at 6:32 is the best version of excelsior I've ever seen. I wish we got that in the series. I'm not the biggest fan of Chekov being a bitter man that couldn't understand Kirk's death properly. That seems out of character. I'm also not the biggest fan of Harriman "Snapping" under pressure. He did very well from what we see in the movie and I think he had the right stuff to be a captain and I think he would of either refused the order, or stepped himself down. He was a humble man. Now for the part you won't like. Keep in mind mate, I still liked this video. So, I'm still not convinced it has a cloak. Not for sure at least, I won't say Starfleet never used them, but I don't buy that the added bulk to the Excelsior is for a Cloaking device. I understand that you are frustrated by this, but I don't find the evidence as compelling or nearly as overwhelming. I think your Algeron argument is well argued, but a bit not conclusive. I don't think the treaty of Algeron banning the use and development of cloaking devices instantly means that Starfleet was in active use of cloaks. Implication, is not explicit or evidence. The treaty could have been a formal replacement of a prior agreement, or the Romulans could of been acting off of concern that the Federation MAY use cloaks in the future, since they have the means. To ensure an advantage in any future conflict. It could also be that the Federation didn't really use cloaks but willingly gave up the ability to as a way of sweetening the Treaty of Algeron. They weren't using them anyway, but giving them up it hands something over to the Romulans to count as a victory on the page. I don't think the development timeline works out to well for this theory though. Why would Miranda class ships like the Reliant not have a cloaking device? It came into service well after the first cloak was taken by Kirk. An entire Starship generation in fact. About 20 years after the first cloak was taken and Starfleet didn't think to develop and integrate this technology onto their new ships? Seem kind of silly, especially given the geopolitical situation at the time. Klingons with cloaks on one side. Romulan's with cloaks on the other. I find it hard to believe they couldn't. Did they lose that cloak they stole from the Romulans? Did some Redshirt accidentally mistake it for a broken lamp and sent it to the incinerator? So why wouldn't they include them onto new classes like Miranda? Why don't we see the Refit-Enterprise ever use a cloak? Or the Enterprise-A? I mean, It probably would of helped a fair bit against Chang, or Khan Or that random BoP in ST:V. Instead we are left with a twenty year gap where apparently they did nothing with cloaking technology. No effort whatsoever to integrate them onto their ships. One would think the ever innovative and dynamic Starfleet would've managed to design their new classes of starships with cloaks if they had them. One would think that by the 20 year mark they would of gotten production sorted out. especially given that the Romulan cloak was almost plug and play. But no, apparently it took a cloak of a Klingon BoP and another what? seven years? to really iron out the kinks. I do not find that believable. I don't know why Excelsior would need to specifically create two large blisters on the secondary hull to hold a cloaking device when plenty of other ships, not at all designed to use cloaks when they were first built never had to make such accommodation. If you want to talk of things being implicit or explicit then I would say that based on the implications that non of these vessels: Mirror universe NX. Kirk's Enterprise. D7. Enterprise-D Defiant. Ever had an sort of significant physical changes to their hulls to accommodate a cloaking device. This implies that cloaking devices do not take up the amount of space to explain why the Excelsior has those large bulges on the secondary hull Even those Gene Roddenberry schematics don't show the older, smaller refit connie as needing a large external change to accommodate the cloak. So why did Excelsior need to do that? Also, Given that Excelsior is supposed to be the new whizz-bang, top of the line, biggest, baddest new ship on the block. Why didn't the original include a cloaking device? Seems like a pretty big oversight to not include that provision. Again, given the geopolitical situation of the day and that Starfleet had well over 20 years to get their own cloaking program working with a massive headstart.
WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO CONVINCE YOU in all seriousness though good points. i don't hate the idea that it was a formalisation of an understanding. but we do run into the question then. "what was the Tomed Incident?" and "why were the Romulans worrried about federation cloaks?" as for Miranda not having it... im sure it could. but lets bear in mind the klingons were not heavily employing cloaks at this point, so the federation wouldn't have to match it and im of the view that miranda was built to face the klingons whilst other (often lighter) ships like the Akula and Columbia while of little use against the klingons would be a good "Submarine Hunter" force. the columbia following excelsiors design language. i think there is a difference between installing a ship with a cloak and building it from scratch to cloak
I still don't think that the Federation used cloaking tech... First, in the Pegasus, the Treaty of Alergon was said to ban the Federation from" developing" cloaking technology. Not give up cloaking technology. It makes no sense to ban someone from developing something which they already developed and used on their ships. Second, it still makes sense for the Romulans, who prefer to play the long game, to prevent the Federation from developing cloaking tech in the future. So that they (the Romulans) would have an advantage over the Federation in the future. This is the same power that instigated a Klingon civil war to gain a long-term advantage over the Federation. Third, just because Starfleet captured cloaking devices, doesn't mean that they used them to develop their own. The Federation has obtained many pieces of tech which they don't use due to various reasons. Forth, it does not makes sense that the huge bulges on the Excelsior II secondary hull would be for a cloaking device. The cloak that Kirk stole fit into his arms and was installed on a medium sized console in an original connie. But 30 years later, the cloak and associated systems take up 10,000 times the volume? As a side note... if the Federation already had cloaking tech and then gave it up just so that the Romulans might not attack them in the future, then the Federation is far more stupid than they already look for signing that treaty. The treaty didn't stop the Romulans from trying to invade Vulcan or violating Federation space with impunity.
What does Picard mean the Bounty was lost in the bay? They didn't have a cloak engaged when they landed and you're seriously telling me that between 'Voyage Home' and 'Picard', they never once went out and dredged the bay in those hundreds of years? Fuck Kurtzman and NuTrek. Also, I remember when 'First Contact' came out, the toy version of the Enterprise E stated that it had a cloaking device on the back of the box. This always intrigued me because I knew that the Federation didn't have cloaks on their ships (aside from the Defiant) and not having the internet back then as we do now, I couldn't just "look it up". Really makes you wonder what they had planned for the E.
It never appears on screen so sadly isn't cannon 😅..Nice argument 👍 👏...plus the Treaty of Algeron was a ban on the development and use I don't see any front line Federation ships having illicit tactical systems that if found could lead to war Starfleet just doubled down on every other area still by the 25th century being the quadrant hyper power if not the galactic that's were the UFP will eventually achieve 😉
sufficiently explained, thank you very much I like it a little more that the B is still there, like a coffin that will only be murdered shortly after being born.
Me: *Enjoying the story of the least told Enterprise* Venom: The Enterprise-B is out there completely intact and completely dead. Me: *sad existential dread noises* Edit me that’s had time to ponder: It went out in a filler episode, not an action-pact double parter or a movie, but a random filler episode.
The federation always struck me as kind of stupid, without section 31, which is vastly more interesting than regular Starfleet it (the Federation) wouldn't be around very long.
@@M167A1, Section 31 exists to be the eternal pessimists in the glorious optimistic future. To safeguard idealism in a universe which is harsh beyond the Federation's borders. They stay awake so that others may sleep comfortably. That is their mission and their burden.
honestly Id half buy that it took them a while to find the bounty, not because the bounty's cloak but because when they finally started looking for the ship it was atleast a decade when they decided to look for the ship again and well they forgot where the ship crashlanded.
the enterprise D's end was a tad...embarrasing, but atleast it wasnt retired after a decade or two like a certain OTHER enterprise we all know and love.
After revisiting the idea of the Enterprise-B now basically being a ghost ship, I REALLY wanna see a Star Trek show that’s more focused on cosmic horror. Not sure how well it would do, but a guy can dream
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I don't think that the Enterprise-B had a cloaking device. Roddenberry said the reason why Starfleet doesn't typically have them is because "our guys don't sneak around."
Actually the treaty prevented the Federation from developing cloaking technology which is why the Defiant was not in breach of the treaty. It wasn't using a Federation created cloak. As for the subject at hand, sorry to break it to you but you presented no evidence whatsoever. What you presented was conjecture and opinion and if you want to believe it did, that's perfectly fine. We have practically no canonical lore on the B so headcannon it however you want. Just don't present it as fact.
the defiant wasn't in breach of the treaty because it was only meant to be used in the gamma quadrant (for all the good it did) if the ban was just on development then they could have just bought cloaks from the klingons.
I don't think you are ranting. I have been in law enforcement for 30 years and a majority of them as a investigator and I think you put together a great case for it having a Cloaking Device.
tbh for my taste you are often a little much protective of your head canon 😉 - while you put a lot of good thought into it, I have to admit that being said, this is one of the theories where I find myself agreeing with you. It is well researched, nicely argued and adds nicely to the universe. I often find myself hoping that you would spend a little more time on working in beta canon sources instead of dismissing them when you don't particularly like it, but whatever, I like what you are doing
What I want to know is, in the Enterprise Incident the Starfleet ordered Kirk (under the table) to steal the Clocking device be cause they needed it because they knew F all about it otherwise why steal it? So How the F did Kirk know how to remove it without causing all kinds of s**t the Romulans would pick up on the bridge? Also how the F would Scotty know how to install it on the Enterprise even though it was designed to work in a Romulan system which has been established in TNG uses a different type of power without causing the Enterprise to say F it I'm done?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 yes , that It really needs an in-universe explanation, now that I think about it, but then that would give "deep space 9" some air to the original series. with starfleet ordering the theft of enemy technology in a time that does not allow it to be done justifiably, but this technology was not known (not counting ENT.) but as happens in SNW, some guard post in the neutral zone would have been account of the cloaking device and notify the command...
1:26 23rd century..... Advanced comms and computers. Plans printed on paper you can get at an office store. Also about the Bounty i believe it got lost because it literally flew itself under water after it was freed from the whale probe and was sinking due to the cargo being opened up. Also I will stand by on this it took the protostar shuttle pod to find it because the craft landed exactly where the bounty did.
I mean no offense dawg, but you answered your own question. Why would the Federation be banned from using/developing cloaks *if they had not already done so?!* But I really, really enjoyed the deep-dive on the fate of "Black Sheep B" (as I call her, on account of her terrible luck making her the black sheep of the family), its a piece of Trek Lore that deserves a better look! I of course have my own theory on what happened to her, but that's a story that must be read to be found out! Excellent job as always!
@@Mr_Sovik That the Federation would be prohibited from using or developing cloaks. That would seem to suggest the Romulans deliberately leveraged a strategic advantage from the treaty negotiations. Its unlikely... but its not impossible either
Interesting thought, what if the 'B' was cloaked when the crew was overcome? She would inevitably drift out of standard shipping lanes, and if not found in short order after the warp core shuts down and the cloak falters, it could drift dead in space for centuries without ever being found. It could make an interesting story creepy ghost ship story line. Especially if it was eventually found by the Borg.
Cloaking devices absolutely work in a non-space media. We've seen cloaking devices work in planetary atmosphere _multiple_ times. In _multiple_ incarnations of the franchise.
What he means is that the Federation would be able to detect the ship's displacement of the air or water around it with their sensors, whereas in the vacuum of space you can't do that. He didn't mean that a cloaking device doesn't cause a ship to be invisible to the naked eye in atmosphere/water.
Haven’t watched the Tomed incident yet, it kind of looks like the Romulan Cloaking device wasn’t completely able to integrate with the Constitution mK I. They could make it work for short term to get out of a problem, but not for long term. The Constitution Refit would have the Cloaking Device installed directly, but had a few problems with it. It just never really was fully integrated and could randomly fail. It wasn’t until the Klingon cloaking device was reverse engineered that the Federation was able to get it fully operational and as an integral design in the Excelsior refit that it was working to full capabilities. This would mean that during the Tomed incident the Romulans realized that the Federation Cloaking worked better than theirs by an order of magnitude. The Romulans only saving grace was they had significantly more of them, seeing as only the Excelsior refits could properly use them. The Tomed incident showed that the Federation could use a Cloaking device far better than the Romulans, which is why they were very adamant that the Federation could no longer use Cloaks. This is supported by the Next Generation episode where in Secret and much fewer resources they were able to develop a Phase Cloak. Where the Romulans using Cloaking on a much higher level weren’t even close to it. The Scimitar’s ‘perfect cloak’, was more likely made up of a bunch of smaller integrated Cloaking devices. Supported by the fight with the Enterprise E.
@VGM, sorry you lost me at "Cloaks don't work in atmosphere!" As we repeatedly see it working in atmosphere in ST:IV, and the movie plot would have been completely broken if it wasn't working. 1980s US military would have been all over Golden Gate Park. In fact we see Sulu flying the plastic sheets into the cloaking field, showing that very clearly the field does work in a gas environment. So I'm sorry, but I'm done watching your 'retread' video at this point.
Considering the Enterprise-B was involved in the Tomed Incident (at least according to the "Enterprise Workshop Owner's Manual") prior to the Treaty of Algernon it would make sense the 1701-B would have a cloaking device. Since the episode "The Enterprise Incident" states that the Federation was trying to understand cloaking technology and "Balance of Terror" established that a claoed vessel would leave a trail traveling through the trail of a comet both A) the Enterprise-B would have some form of a cloaking device and B) the Bounty would be noticed due to at least "volume displacement" and be seen.
Consider Romulan sneakiness. I reckon the Ent-B's fate was, after Tomed a Romulan managed to infiltrate the ship posing as a Vulcan officer. And then proceeded to disperse this plague; in truth a bioweapon, possible using themself as the vessel carrying it (ie infected before boarding). And then as the plague spread this agent could have moved more easily through the ship with the crew in the throes of succumbing to the bioweapon and sabotaged their warp drive and comms systems effectively snuffing and stranding them.... with no help coming and no way to search for help, dying. Later the Romulans claim responsibility and threaten further similar attacks after single handedly destroying the flagship with one agent. The Federation agrees to a cessation of escalation with the treaty of Algeron and bury the incident in public knowledge, making it a senior officer or higher even secret. Explaining the obscene level of paranoia in high ranking older members of starfleet regarding Romulan infiltrators. In drumhead she wasnt simply prejudiced and insane. That woman might have believed she was about to uncover a repeat of the Enterprise B happening on the D.
Lot of speculation, but fun assumptions. Supposedly, the Treaty of Algeron prohibited both the development and use of cloaking devices, emphasis on development. Regardless, very well put together video and makes for some very fun ST thought exercises! Would never say that she absolutely had a cloak, but possible. Keep vids coming, very enjoy your perspective.
congrats to 30k. I dont always agree with your opinions but respect that you accept the idea that starfleet is a military. a noble one sure but to be insulting all life is human after all. keep up the good work good health and good winds.
We're back to all the controversy generated by The Search for Spock. There was so much hype after The Wrath of Khan, key to all the ANTICIPATION! Included the new FASA products ESPECIALLY Star Trek: The Role Playing game. In the game, the stats for the new Excelsior class battleship was released. Not a experimental one off ship full of new technologies. But a production line, of new generation vessels to reach past, all previous Federation vessels. Old trekkies like myself fully expected to see ALL the technology obtained by NCC 1701, during her five years mission. A ship that had SURVIVED traveling at Transwarp speed, on numerous occasions. As well as successfully stealing a Romulan cloaking device, from the Romulans! Later when the Klingon scout ship is controlled by. James T. Kirk. Cmdr Scott had little difficulty in modifying snd IMPROVING the Klingon cloak to be optional at all times. Once on 20th century Earth. The ship was able to remain closked, while landed. WITH MAIN POWER OFFLINE! Scotty also modified the ship's " nain Energizer to; "something less primitive!" Most frustrating of all was a short seen I remember from the theater. Shortly after The Search for Spock was released. A short clip, then removed, never to be seen again. Left out of later prints. I The scene showed a Klingon ambassador addressing an intergalactic assembly. His words echoing Dr Mickoy's reaction to the Genesis project. Taking about the Excelsior class. A class of ship. Cruising at Transwarp speed, using cloaking devices to fire genesis torpedoes into the worlds of all other interstellar species! He called openly, quickly seconded ny the Romulan delegation. For a universal war, to destroy the Federation before the Excelsior class could be deployed in sufficient numbers. Kirk arrived with the Enterprise, with a fanatically loyal crew. Once the Enterprise is docked, suddenly ALL crew members are summarily reassigned. Enterprise is left abandoned without the formality of a decommissioning ceremony! It's seems obvious that to ensure peace. The Federation was barred from using Transwarp drive, cloaking devices and genesis torpedoes. I think it's fair to say, that the Federation was equally horrified by the potential genesis project. The Klingons were furious by their FAILURE, to seize gensis for themselves. So I have always expected the recalibrated Transwarp drive, and cloaking devices were fitted to all or most Excelsior class ships. In the event that the treaty barring their use, was broken. A far more satisfactory reason for the crazy longevity of the Excelsiors in service. An Excelsior captain would have the classified ability to reactivate these these classified systems.
@@venomgeekmedia9886Because Sulu was 🏳️🌈 in the Kelvin timeline and because Takei is in real life, they've sort of retconned it in Current Year: He was _always_ 🏳️🌈 and if you argue then you're a Bad Mid-Century German friend of That Austrian Painter. 🤦🏻♂️
@@danielseelye6005 I'm fine with kelvin sulu being gay, given that he also uses a a katana instead of a rapier. They are quite different sulu's. But Takei himself played sulu as straight, and I think we should respect the actors choices.
Look at starfleet technology in the trek universe, it's some of the best around, if the Klingons have it and I know they traded for it but they would have to understand it to repair and maintain it, then the federation would be easily able to create their own, regardless of having the stolen prototype or not. I bet the federations was so good and they used it so well, that it frightened the shit out the Romulans and thats's why they insisted the federation be banned from having them. Conversely it would also mean the Romulans cloaking technology wasn't great nor is their understanding even after having it for so long. Through all the shows, the federation was nearly always able to detect cloaked ships, so that means their ability to understand the technology is very high, even when they don't use it and then when a small group of ppl made the one for the Prometheus, look at how crazy and advanced that cloak was, a cloak that was at that stage a decade or two old when we see it, again compare it to the latest Romulan tech and it makes theirs look a generation or two behind.
I have no problem with the Federation having cloaking devices before the Treaty of Algeron, after it becomes problematic. The Treaty of Algeron was signed in 2311. The Excelsior refit was launched in the 2290s (The Enterprise 1701-B was launched in 2293 which could have been the first Excelsior refit class launched we don’t actually know.) However, the schematics you showed with the cloaking device installed is of the Constitution refit not the Excelsior refit. If the Constitution refit had a cloaking device, which was likely installed in every Constitution refit, then wouldn’t they just install a cloaking device on every Excelsior class to begin with? The explanation that creating the Excelsior refit was done to install a cloaking device is wrong. For one thing the Enterprise 1701, pre-refit, (with on bloody A, B, C or D or the other ones too.) managed to handle a cloaking device with out needing to be refit (The Enterprise Incident) and according to that apocryphal schematic the Enterprise refit handled it just fine from its launch (Star Trek: The Motion Picture). There isn’t a good explanation for why the Excelsior Refit has the stupid wings hanging off of it other then it was a production issue. The Excelsior model couldn’t be damaged for the Production of Star Trek: Generations because Star Trek: Deep Space Nine needed it or might have needed it for the production of that show. I ask again, if the Constitution Refit (now called Constitution-II class) can have a cloaking device from construction then why wouldn’t the Excelsior (NX-2000 and other Excelsior class) have a cloaking device from its construction? Also an implication isn’t actual evidence and certainly isn't proof, the Romulans could have simply demanded it or they would have signed the treaty or the Romulans thought the Federation had cloaking technology so they actually created cloaking technology to keep up, but the Federation didn’t have cloaking technology so why it came time for the Treaty of Algeron they had their chance to manipulate the Federation to stop or prevent the Federation from creating or using their own cloaking technology. (Something like this happened in World War II, the CIA leaked information to the Germans that they were experimenting with mind control and assignations though mind manipulation and the Germans started their actual experiments to keep up so the CIA then learned that so the CIA started doing their experiments leading to the MK-Ultra program.) Also according to Paramount and CBS nothing is official cannon unless it happens on screen, any novel, comic, guidebook, technical manual, show bible (created by the production team) or/and anything very very heavily implied isn’t canon unless it is on screen in an episode of official recognized canon series and movies of which Star Trek: The Animated Series is not official canon and the novel written by Jeri Taylor (Co-creator and Producer of Star Trek: Voyager) called Star Trek: Voyager Pathways isn’t canon. The reason Paramount and CBS want this is because is the producers want to contradict anything at a later date they aren’t beholden to a comic book that someone wrote in the 1960s. The actual reason Starfleet and Federation ships don’t have cloaking devices is a production reason. Star Trek doesn’t have its hero ships cloak for very simple reasons, what do you do with a cloaked starship when you are trying to create an establishing shot. Like in the TOS episode "The Cage" when the camera zooms in on the bridge or how interesting would it be to see a cloaked starship flying through space and every single time the ship does anything like beam down to a planet or attempt to meet with a ship they need to decloak, which would be an absolute waste of time for every single episode and would have the ship avoid so many interesting things that they show would be boring. The reason the Federation doesn’t use cloaking technology is because the show is much more interesting without them. It is essentially the same reason for the Transporters, the cost of shooting a shuttle landing scene every time the crew goes to a planet is a huge cost savings, especially in the 60s, it was much easier to put some glitter in a glass and mix it around and use a fade in and out on the actors. Regardless of that stupid BS, none of that actually matters, why wouldn’t the Federation have and use cloaking devices? For one how do you protect the Federation citizens from cloaking devices if you don’t learn every you can about cloaking technology? Wouldn’t the Federation have and use cloaking technology to learn to defeat and detect cloaked vessels, even after the Treaty of Algeron but before the Treaty of Algeron, what would stop the Federation and Starfleet from having Cloaking Devices, absolutely nothing. They would be stupid if they didn’t do everything that they can to beat cloaking technologies. But why wouldn’t a Starfleet starships have cloaking devices on them before the Treaty of Algeron, except they couldn’t make it work properly or completely for Starfleet starship designs but then why wouldn’t they adapt their ships to a more Klingon or Romulan design philosophy? After the Treaty Starfleet and the Federation would still use cloaking technology, if for nothing else then to develop ways to defeat it and then there is Section 31. One last thing, as no Star Trek episode of any series or movie mentions The Tomed Incident, not even Star Trek Picard. It was mentioned it two novels, each likely having their own explanation for the Tomed Incident. The first was "Star Trek: The Return” by William Shatner published on April 1st, 1996. The second one was "Star Trek: The Lost Era 2311 Serpents Among the Ruins” by David R. George III published on September 1st 2003 neither of these books are official canon as such they are apocryphal and don’t count and canon. The in-canon explanation for the signing of The Treaty of Algeron has yet to be explained. The only thing we know is that it was sign in 2311 based on the Star Trek: Enterprise’s final episode "These are the Voyages…" beyond that there is nothing else relevant and related to the Treaty of Algeron except that it changed the Romulan Neutral Zone and that the Federation could not develop cloaking technology. Also the only thing we know about the Enterprise B is what happened in Star Trek: Generations and the same goes for the Captain and Crew of the Enterprise B. I understand that you are a TH-camr and that requires you to make videos but you should let people know that you are using speculation or beta canon or whatever but that it isn’t official Star Trek Canon from Paramount or CBS. Also I am not trying to upset you or attack you in any way. If it comes off that way I apologize.
I could be wrong, but didn't the treaty of algeron band the development of a cloaking device? I could swear that it banned the development specifically, not the use. Such wording would imply that Starfleet didn't have a ship with a working cloak at that time.
The Federation's cloaking technology should be light years beyond Romulan or the janky stuff they sold the Klingons. I honestly don't see why the enterprise B, new version or not, and the rest of the Excelsior's wouldn't have cloaking devices similar to the Scimitar's perfect cloak. And the Bounty was on display at the museum in Picard. Along with the K'Tinga class battlecruiser that the Klingons gave the Federation on the signing of the Kitomer alliance.
In my Star Trek universe, the Federation never agreed to NOT develop cloaking & phase cloaking devices. NOT having a phase cloak on every Federation vessel severely limits what Starfleet can do. Period!! I don’t need to explain myself further
While you make good arguments, and I think the Federation absolutely used cloaking devices during the Early era, your video becomes harder to watch when you get other facts about the canon wrong. Kirk was a Captain when he died on the Enterprise B, not an Admiral. A Cloaking device would not be housed in the section around the Deflector, but rather more centralized, and Utilizes the shield grid the most powerful defensive system on the ship. In all instances we see the Cloaking device being handled, it is in main engineering next to the warp core, do to its intense need for power. The side flares on the Excelsior MK II was to house an additional array for the Deflector controls, as Starfleet hadn't entirely given up on Transwarp and at the time a breakthrough had been made regarding the use of the Deflector to break through the threshold. Several ships were built with the intension of testing this theory and while it did push warp drives to new levels, transwarp as it was envisioned at the time was never achieved. The technology was then adapted to improve warp speeds in later models.
Blueprints aren’t canon. If it’s not on screen, it’s not canon. Even if we entertain that they are, Andrew Probert’s Mr Scott’s Guide To The Enterprise book goes through every inch of the ship and its functions, and there is no cloaking device. No other blueprints have ever included a cloaking device. The same blueprint pack includes a Klingon ship with completely incorrect dimensions compared to canon. DS9 canon puts that ship 40% longer than those blueprints. Even if the Treaty of Algeron proved that the federation were using cloaking devices, it doesn’t prove that one was on the 1701 refit let alone on the enterprise B. I think we have to take a step back and accept that this is all sci fi and therefore you can’t cogently argue that something never seen on screen exists because none of it exists in the universe until it’s on screen. We’re talking about ILM wooden models. Stunning models that took hundreds of hours with some incredibly sophisticated paint jobs, but models all the same.
Did you ever hear the tragic story of the "Dark" Enterprise B who could cloack? It's a Venomgeek legend. Certainly not a story Trek Central would tell you. Its Ironic - she could hide from others - but not herself 😉😁
5:33 I have seen pictures of those schematics but where could I verify their authenticy? 5:43 I wonder how that would work in terms of combat if both vessels were cloaked? Furthermore, you'd expect this technology to be employed in "Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan" given its more militaristic depiction of Starfleet. I mean, I have a theory as to what the USS Enterprise was up to between the first two movies.
Yeah, Starfleet would have found the Klingon BOP very easily. And yes, Federation was using cloaking devices. Most likely, with scouting missions, not in all capital ships. It is, as the video stated, an open and shut case.
Seems legit 🤷♂️. Also, to back up your point about the cloaked Bird of Prey. In Insurrection they literally show what happens when a ship cloaks underwater. It was very easy to find the holoship..
I read somewhere that they did the upgrades was that starfleet discovered that the early production Excelsior 's were getting very bad battle damage in really light battles around their navigational deflector and it made going to warp somewhat difficult.
thank you for using this stargate explanation of wacko a 100 percent applause for you good Sir we're not sticking only to Star Trek to get your memes. Plus there's a precedent before Kirk for crazy **** captains Garth Advisor Captain Tracy of the Omega Glory captain Decker of the Phallic vagina episode and that's just three I can think of the top of the top in my head i'm sure there are others picard under the influence of the free mind control devices voyager the captain of the equinox I can't remember his name now. but his darkship captains go nuts not all of them just the ones that can't keep it in line can't control who and what they are either they become God like or they become arrogant beyond belief kirk was heading that way until the incident of Vijay and then Ralph Khan where he lost spock Those two incidents On Kirk I can do no wrong and you can see a building throughout the series little by little.
Ok, i'd say that Enterprise and Enterprise A may not have been using the romulan cloaking device after the episode where Kirk stole it from the romulans but that may have been because they had given the device to research and development to study it. I could agree that the excelsior ships could have used them but the Enterprise A was not equipped with it - or saving Kirk and McCoy from Rura Penthe would be easier AND the battle against general Chang would be more eaqual with both ships being able to cloak.
Don’t know if you will see this but I hope in canon they explain what the heck happened to the B, E and The F is still a bit iffy if it was destroyed in Picard Season 3 because it wasn’t in the Fleet Museum and the G is currently in service we know the Fates of the Nx-01, the TOS, the A, the C, the D and G I would like a in canon explanation of what happened to the B, E and F maybe the Section 31 movie will tell us what happened to the B as it’s set in the lost due to the fact a young Rachel Garrett is appearing in it
Well argued and here’s a plus: Trek Central I worked for and it is run by a preening egomaniac called Jack who can’t take constructive criticism of any level - even as little as ‘oh, it’s spelled …’. He also took my name off articles I wrote and credited himself. He’s likely doing that to others unfortunately writing for him. He pretends to be others so he can claim he’s too busy to talk. So congratulations on doing the job better than them
Also the treaty with the Klingons after the undiscovered country, they may of had in the treaty the swapping of technology including the Klingons clocks
Question. After the Romulans sun went nova (super dumb by the way) does that mean Starfleet will develop cloaking devices since the only thing stopping them was their deal with the Romulans?
One should never underestimate the Federation. You think the dark void of space is full of unknown things, & other races who would shoot up your ship as look at you…look at what the Federation can do, once someone ticks them off!! Then, it’s no-holds-barred…
Question: why do you think the cloak is in the bulges next to the deflector dish, instead of the strange, ugly ribbed thick black windowless neck that should be an elegant slim sail like most other Starfleet vessels?
Only way the treaty’s of Algeron makes sense as a peace treaty which prohibited the federation from having or developing cloaking technology. Is of they already had it in all the ships or next of them pre the tomed incident. Ships which would include the enterprise B.
I thought, the ban of using cloaking devices for the federation was a preemptive ban. essentially, the romulans telling the federation: don't even think about developing cloaking devices. we know, you got your hands on them in the past. there is also the other situation, that the romulans would need means to control the ban of cloaking devices for the federation. why should for example section 31 actually care about this ban? most in the federation didn't know about section 31, they were really good at covering their tracks. cloaking devices would have been their go to tool to covertly do stuff.
So nice of you to improve the Excelsior design 6:45 by extending the hull. I never liked the design due to this stupidly fragile looking overhang. The original Enterprise and the A, C and E it looks much better.
I actually wonder if the Excelsior transwarp experiment could have really been a cover for developing a cloaking device. This would help explain the apparent plot holes created by the Excelsior transwarp.
the evidence for all to see...
www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/star-trek-the-motion-picture.php
Love the moesty!
It's ridiculous that the federation would sign a treaty saying we can't use cloaks but you can .
I don't need to see your evidence. If you're going to break cannon in the first 3 minutes of your video, I'm not wasting my time.
Honestly, you lost me at "Cloaks don't work in atmosphere!" As we repeatedly see it working in atmosphere in ST:IV, and the movie plot would have been completely broken if it wasn't working. 1980s US military would have been all over Golden Gate Park. In fact we see Sulu flying the plastic sheets into the cloaking field, showing that very clearly the field does work in a gas environment. So I'm sorry, but I'm done watching your 'retread' video at this point.
For the starters, Federation always could have a clock. It was not an advanced tech in 24'th century. Like it was in 23'th century. Federation just as good will gesture agree to not develop this tech. Because in Federation doctrine at the time, they didn't need it. And TBH they break it already with Section 31 spy ships, what pretend to be Federation mining freighters (we actually see those in Strange New World). But that is beside the point as S31 was illegal.
I don't think Enterprise-B was lost way before Enterprise-C, considering that from 2290's they clearly intend it as diplomatic ship. It would make no sense to have mayor delay. Though if someone do not like epidemic as ending, it is entirely possible that actual event was covered up. TBH is Romulans and Klingons together decided that Federation cross the line, it probably was something major.
But.... but.... The cloaking device wasn't due to be installed on the _Enterprise-B_ until next Tuesday.
Right after the coffee bar
😂😂😂😂
Captain: We can't find the cloaking device. Once Wesley Crusher tested it, it vanished into a pocket universe. For that matter, we can't seem to locate Dr. Crusher, either.
@@aqdrobert bring Wesley to the bridge, I want to tell him to shut up again
@@aquariandawn4750 Traveler: He shall return Next Tuesday, Captain.
Here's an interesting point: Wasn't Kirk living in the shadow of Captain Pike? Pike commanded the Enterprise for at least 10 years before he turned command of the ship over to Kirk. And Pike was alive and well for a portion of Kirk's captaincy of the Enterprise, up until Pike got delta radiation poisoning.
You are right, Kirk is the second captain... There was a TOS where Pike came on board for a trial and was questioned about a top secret event while he was a comadoor. (Not sure how to spell it but it sounds like that is how it is should be)
@@jonathanbair523 Technically, Kirk is the Enterprise's third captain. Robert April commanded the Enterprise before Christopher Pike.
@@jonathanbair523commodore*
The cloaking device would fit the theme of Trek being Submarines in space
My personal head canon is that the Enterprise B survived, and was decommissioned.
Star Trek has an unrealistic trend of Enterprises being destroyed with the count maybe being at 6/8 (NCC-1701, B, C, D, E, F). That's an awfully high rate. a ratio of more like 3/8 (NCC-1701, C, D) seems much more reasonable to me.
If a ship had so many of its previous incarnations lost as 5 or 6 out of 8 it would not build a reputation of being the best of the best, it would build a reputation of being a cursed name.
The Enterprise-F wasn't destroyed, though, she was decommissioned. We don't know what exactly happened to the Enterprise-B, but she clearly didn't make it to be decommissioned when you consider that the only Enterprises at the ship museum were the NX-01, A, D, and eventually F. (1701, C, & D were confirmed destroyed, and they literally revived the D thanks to a rebuild project with the retrieved saucer and a donor engineering section.)
The only ones left ambiguous are the B & E. Whatever canonically happened to the Enterprise-E was clearly after Worf stepped down from being the commanding officer ("It was not my fault!"). I don't think ANY TNG Era or Lost Era media as of yet has even bothered to canonically explain the Enterprise-B's fate...which is kinda silly.
Giving up cloaking was so stupid only the Federation could agree to it.
Something to ponder on. Why does the Dominion not use cloaking devices?
Yeah the Enterprise Beach cloaking device didn't get installed until Tuesday
What I do agree with is that it's more than likely the Federation employed cloaking devices prior to Algeron. Considering a cloaks usability for de-escalation, I.E. 'we don't have to fight if they can't find us', I can't see why they wouldn't imediatly start trying to employ them. I don't see them doing a lot of sneaky shit beceuse, well, Feddies are a bunch of little goody two shoes. Albeit a goody two shoes packing a .44 mag.
What I don't agree with is the lack of Yeager based content on this channel! Frankly what better ship to strap a cloak to than the Federations very own boot leg BOP!?!
i like the first lost Scanio, but what if the enterprise b was lost searching for the source of vger and found the borg
Overwhelming lack of evidence
Ooh, putting a cloaking device in those bulges even explains why we hardly see that refit ever again: because of the treaty.
I have absolutely no problems with the Excelsior Block 2s having cloaking devices, never have even when I was watching TNG with the Treaty of Algeron in place. It just made sense to have them. There was plenty of time between the Enterprise Incident and the Treaty of Algeron where they'd have no legal reason not to equip ships with cloaks and plenty of good reasons to do so. We just never saw our heroes in a situation where they needed to use them. The closest I can think of off the top of my head would be the rescue of Kirk from Rura Penthe, and who's to say they weren't using it then. They were able to bluff the Klingon outpost fairly effectively after all, and this would have been a 23rd Century cloak, not the "Nobody's here except this random space anomaly" cloaks that the 24th Century Romulans had.
As Captain Harriman, I feel for the guy. He seemed like a reasonably competent officer with astoundingly bad luck. It was just a quick jaunt around the solar system, a dog-and-pony show for the press to crow about the Old Guard handing off to the next generation. Oh, crud, a distress call. Well we have to answer it. OK we got the survivors out but we're stuck. Oh Kirk and his friends have a plan. Great we're free... What do you mean Kirk is dead?!
I never had the chance to read the lost era books, but what I've seen of the synopses doesn't seem to contradict my view of Harriman, and as for him snapping during the Tomed Incident, I can see it happening. Some people are just not psychologically prepared for basically wiping out civilians on a massive scale. I'm civilian and have no knowledge about the matter, but it would be obvious IMO that modern ballistic missile sub captains need to be of a certain psychological profile, maybe with Starfleet they didn't think to test him on that and he turned out to be someone who was fragile enough that he couldn't bear the thought of what would be essentially mass murder. (Good enough to deal with most combat situations, but not for this type of mission)
The Bounty wasn't lost, it was "lost" (nudge nudge wink wink). Totally different.
The bulge was designed by plot devices LTD. It was there so they could have damage without tearing up the Excelsior model
It’s the same company that designed the emergency steering column on the enterprise e for insurrection. They are also the ones who put the airlock on the Oberth class bridge.
😂 trek Central
Always loved how you put a cloak in the Ent B and the sister refits. Made sense, works with the timeline, and gives reason for the Treaty of Algeron.
Except that treaty banned the development of a cloak
What it also explains, is why the Excelsior Fight-2 isn't as common as expected. After the Treaty of Algeron the areas in question the volume would have been repurposed for sensors.
I came up with variant Flight 2A which expands on the stardrive section, and incorporated Ambassador class components which is what disappeared in 2329.
Yeah it's a pity it took this video for me to go. "Oh yeah I guess there wouldn't be a reason to forbid cloaking devices unless they had used them."
However no onscreen evidence is provided that the B or any other ship had a cloaking device.
This is Star Trek not Star wars, books mean nothing if it's not on screen it doesn't happen, it's as simple as that.
All of you thinking it's on ships it's your head canon and head canon means nothing when it comes to actual canon.
@@valor1omega Dude, why come to a fan lore channel to say fan lore doesn't happen. I can be critical of some of Venom's takes but saying "Well it's not canon" just makes you look like an idiot.
The Enterprise A had one too. In the novelization of Star Trek VI, Capt Spock and Crew decided against using their cloak to bluff past a Klingon security outpost. This was added to the on screen dialogue about the unknown saboteur
Good point they fly through klingon space like its nothing in 6
@@venomgeekmedia9886 that would be an interesting episode about starfleet doctrine of cloak warfare before the treaty. Would Star fleet adopt a shot to disable mentality or shoot to kill.
Yeah, Starfleet was definitely lying about being unable to find the Bounty to cover up having its cloak.
If they'd admitted that they'd found the Bounty, the Klingons would have demanded that they return it. Just like that time the US Navy retrieved pieces of a Soviet SSBN that sank, and when the Soviets asked "Hey there, what are you doing with that big salvage ship and those support ships near where our sub went missing?" and the Navy just came back with "Just conducting environmental studies and stuff, totally legit, bro, trust me."
@@vishnu79 They also could have found parts of the Bounty but not the whole thing, San Francisco bay has many heavy currents so the Bird of Prey could have been spread over a long area and Starfleet just "failed" mention they did recover parts of it like the cloaking device.
@@SampoPaalanen Then why is the Bounty in one piece in the starfleet museum in star trek picard?
@@florians.849 It's easy to assume they later recovered the hull and repaired it, just because most of the hull is intact it doesn't mean small pieces like the cloaking device couldn't have be gotten loose on the crash and floated away.
@@vishnu79 At least up until the aftermath of the Battle of Narenda III, in which case, the Klingons would've been like "nah, we knew you had her the entire time! We're good!"
"I can see you Harriman.can yo..."
(Enterprise B engages cloak)
😮🤯😂😂
Starfleet is not going to leave but damaged alien ship at the bottom of San Francisco Bay if the warp core blew up it would be worse than a hydrogen bomb going off it will completely destroy the city it might render the entire state uninhabitable God knows how much radiation and shit that would put out and it might be worse than a nuclear bomb going off by antimatter explosion in the atmosphere and who knows what kind of toxins and contaminants you know since it's an alien ship can be spreading Earth's atmosphere the complete completely poisoned the planet so yeah they're not going to allow that they'll have that sumbitch out of there in a day or two we could raise our submarines From the Bottom of the Sea in 1980 well they only got half of it the America did that to a Russian submarine in 1980 they got half of it off the bottom of the sea it was a deep sea drilling platform or some shit but really they was a you know stealing that Russian submarine and I did get half of it and new kind of nuclear reactor it was I think it was a big Oscar class
The fact that the whole treaty banning the federation from having cloaks is a thing suggests they were definitely using cloaking devices 100%. It wouldn't make any sense for the Romulans to be so touchy as to put it into the treaty, unless the federation was actively using it during their little war.
I do like the creation of this lore, though I don't think the federation would sneak attack colonies, or just attack colonies in general. That is definitely something that the federation would frown upon.
If you watch the tomed incident it will make more sense. They probably were military targets but inevitably there's a civilian population alongside it.
I take it as read that the Federation would not glass civilian population centers, but the Romulans WOULD, and they would assume the Federation would too.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I did watch it before I watched this one, I just felt like they probably wouldn't even take that risk. Idk if starfleet has the capability to stealth way into romulan space, they for sure would of reconed the planets in question and saw they were civilians. I guess they could of just been large military institutions with dense civilian populations around them. I don't remember exactly how you framed it in the video.
Either way, the likelihood that they wouldn't recon planets they plan on preemptively striking is pretty low in my opinion. With that in mind, I doubt starfleet would actively ok a all out preemptive attack on a military or non military target if there were significant civilian populations around it. Even given the highly militarized state of Star fleet at the time. But that could lead to some interesting plot points, where starfleet realizing how far removed from their core being, has let themselves be ok with such horrorific attacks. It would also play into some mindsets we see in TNG, where clearly the federation has been super relaxed about being prepared for war. The cardassian war I feel like should of been a easy sweep for the federation. Then the borg almost wiping out the home of the federation, its only during the leadup to the dominion war where they almost return to that militarized state.
Honestly if i were the federation, Id actively keep up a couple of fleets just purely built for war, just orbiting around in the federation. they dont have to even be that massive of fleets, but fleets that if needed, can easily be sent to defend the frontier. Something to give enemies pause before attacking.
I still though doubt that they would. Its more likely in my mind that you take the tomad story you have created (which is very good) but replace the motivations for peace like this: Federation with stealth technology during the incident posed such a great threat to the Romulan navy, that they demanded the federation never use it again. Probably because they suffered heavy fleet loses during the war, whereas for the federation they sought the mutual removal of Planetary warheads after the romulans basically evaporate several federation colonies.
Anyways a good video, its fun to see and im expecting more more to come.
@@phoenixyo9987 We see what Enterprise D era Starfleet is prepared to do in war and we see what Archer is prepared to do in war, with the order in A Taste Of Armegeddon fire on the planet being a sign that in TOS Star Fleet has provision to be ruthless in that era. Then factor in that the Romulans have the largest amount of baggage for Starfleet and I can see it being viable.
I don't need sleep i need cloaking devices
An interesting time to do an overview of post-2293 Enterprise-B. If the Ent-B is MIA, one can hope it gets recovered like the USS Stargazer. And yes, I agree that the Enterprise-B having a cloak is a reasonable assessment, as provided by all the ing evidence.
Interesting points on the likeliness of Starfleet actually having cloaking devices. That aside - I'm not sure how I feel about that "stretched" Excelsior secondary hull concept. I kinda like it, but at the same time, it feels off. But I gotta ask - was the Ent-B's cloak installed in time for Generations, or was that also planned for Tuesday?
Re: The Bounty. If you wanted to find it, just hang some chains or nets or something off the back of a ship and just trawl it back and forth across the Bay until they snag on something. Investigate what it snagged on. Eventually, TADA~ Klingon BoP found, cloak up or down. That being said, Starfleet might have "lost" the ship in the Bay in order to reduce tensions with the Klingons and then later the Romulans.
Also, love the SG-1 ref. That might be my favorite episode of the series. I honestly hope the Ent-B's fate continues to be left unsaid for alpha canon. Having a little mystery in the lineage is interesting.
probably with off camouflage since the ship had practically run out of battery.
Or if it was just, "Oh, another BOP? We've got three already... why are we gonna bother fishing that one up?"
Nice, a Stargate SG1 line reading! Outstanding! "In the middle of my backswing?!"
That's gotta be a record...
You are far better than Trek Central in this man's opinion
An early draft for star trek VI had Scotty dissembling and studying the bounty
I would like to see the exploring of the Enterprise-C and Captain Garrett. It's not as crazy a time, but she seems really interesting.
OK SecretHideOut Bot… absolutely no coincidence at all she will be in the upcoming Section 31 travesty, I mean movie.
@@ah7910 Yo, did you call me a bot because I want to see more from an Enterprise and Captain that hasn't been done to death?
Are you really this paranoid about space fiction? 🤣
Rumor has it that Star Fleet command is still desperately pouring through ships logs, build schematics, and crew manifests, looking for the right combination of mystical charms, to produce another ship named Enterprise with lucky streak as great as Enterprise A. Enterprise B disappears without a trace, Enterprise C is lost in battle against the Romulans, and Enterprise C losses a fight to a single Klingon bird of prey, RIKER!
"I don't ever want to have to explain myself again.". Now I know what to ask for the next Q&A 😁
Star Trek Picard made note the Bounty was sitting on the bottom of the bay due to the cloak managing to turn on. Which you really would have assumed the device wouldn't operate in water, but the neat thing is the Klingon ship was able to be submerged in water without damaging the ship to heavily.
I really like this explanation. It even makes sense if why there weren't more of this hull style.
I like your work. I don't nessisarely agree with everything in all your videos... heck, I think Michael Okuda screwed up more than a few concepts... but you're one of the best theorists I have stumbled across in a long time.
I did know The Enterprise B could had a Cloaking Device.
When was The Bounty cloaked again in The Bay? I remember them on that chin strap in The Bay uncloaked before it sinks. It's been a while since I've watched 4 so I could be forgetting something.
I assume something malfunctioned on the way to the sea floor and it reactivated. It really doesn’t make sense that they couldn’t find it but it makes for a fun story so I think it’s cannon.
She never cloaked in the Bay in Star Trek IV. Only reference in canon is Picard Season 3 exposition as far as I know.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 ok, so not canon to the prime timeline in my head canon. LOL.
Everything after First Contact is a skewed timeline as far as I'm concerned. So the Enterprise is in that new timeline as well as the kelvin and kurtzman Trek. So STP is the Picard from the Enterprise future. If that makes any sense.
It also makes the Spock in 2009 the Spock from the Future of Enterprise. It's a little convoluted but it seems to be able to explain away all the garbage kurtzman is getting wrong.
@@brodyalves1861 Even if it did cloak from a malfunction, why would they let a treasure trove of Intel just at the bottom of San Francisco Bay? Like, it should have been a walk in the park finding it.
@@BaronFeydRautha Priorities. Had to work on rebuilding the Earth from the planetwide damage inflicted by the probe. Now, maybe by the time Star Trek V: The Final Frontier starts, they'd have already went back and scooped it up? We may never know exactly when they got that bad bird out, but we know they absolutely got her...
That stretched Excelsior at 6:32 is the best version of excelsior I've ever seen. I wish we got that in the series.
I'm not the biggest fan of Chekov being a bitter man that couldn't understand Kirk's death properly. That seems out of character.
I'm also not the biggest fan of Harriman "Snapping" under pressure. He did very well from what we see in the movie and I think he had the right stuff to be a captain and I think he would of either refused the order, or stepped himself down. He was a humble man.
Now for the part you won't like. Keep in mind mate, I still liked this video.
So, I'm still not convinced it has a cloak. Not for sure at least, I won't say Starfleet never used them, but I don't buy that the added bulk to the Excelsior is for a Cloaking device. I understand that you are frustrated by this, but I don't find the evidence as compelling or nearly as overwhelming.
I think your Algeron argument is well argued, but a bit not conclusive.
I don't think the treaty of Algeron banning the use and development of cloaking devices instantly means that Starfleet was in active use of cloaks. Implication, is not explicit or evidence.
The treaty could have been a formal replacement of a prior agreement, or the Romulans could of been acting off of concern that the Federation MAY use cloaks in the future, since they have the means. To ensure an advantage in any future conflict.
It could also be that the Federation didn't really use cloaks but willingly gave up the ability to as a way of sweetening the Treaty of Algeron. They weren't using them anyway, but giving them up it hands something over to the Romulans to count as a victory on the page.
I don't think the development timeline works out to well for this theory though.
Why would Miranda class ships like the Reliant not have a cloaking device? It came into service well after the first cloak was taken by Kirk. An entire Starship generation in fact.
About 20 years after the first cloak was taken and Starfleet didn't think to develop and integrate this technology onto their new ships? Seem kind of silly, especially given the geopolitical situation at the time. Klingons with cloaks on one side. Romulan's with cloaks on the other. I find it hard to believe they couldn't.
Did they lose that cloak they stole from the Romulans? Did some Redshirt accidentally mistake it for a broken lamp and sent it to the incinerator?
So why wouldn't they include them onto new classes like Miranda?
Why don't we see the Refit-Enterprise ever use a cloak? Or the Enterprise-A? I mean, It probably would of helped a fair bit against Chang, or Khan Or that random BoP in ST:V. Instead we are left with a twenty year gap where apparently they did nothing with cloaking technology. No effort whatsoever to integrate them onto their ships. One would think the ever innovative and dynamic Starfleet would've managed to design their new classes of starships with cloaks if they had them. One would think that by the 20 year mark they would of gotten production sorted out. especially given that the Romulan cloak was almost plug and play.
But no, apparently it took a cloak of a Klingon BoP and another what? seven years? to really iron out the kinks.
I do not find that believable.
I don't know why Excelsior would need to specifically create two large blisters on the secondary hull to hold a cloaking device when plenty of other ships, not at all designed to use cloaks when they were first built never had to make such accommodation.
If you want to talk of things being implicit or explicit then I would say that based on the implications that non of these vessels:
Mirror universe NX.
Kirk's Enterprise.
D7.
Enterprise-D
Defiant.
Ever had an sort of significant physical changes to their hulls to accommodate a cloaking device. This implies that cloaking devices do not take up the amount of space to explain why the Excelsior has those large bulges on the secondary hull
Even those Gene Roddenberry schematics don't show the older, smaller refit connie as needing a large external change to accommodate the cloak. So why did Excelsior need to do that?
Also, Given that Excelsior is supposed to be the new whizz-bang, top of the line, biggest, baddest new ship on the block. Why didn't the original include a cloaking device? Seems like a pretty big oversight to not include that provision. Again, given the geopolitical situation of the day and that Starfleet had well over 20 years to get their own cloaking program working with a massive headstart.
WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO CONVINCE YOU
in all seriousness though good points. i don't hate the idea that it was a formalisation of an understanding. but we do run into the question then. "what was the Tomed Incident?" and "why were the Romulans worrried about federation cloaks?"
as for Miranda not having it... im sure it could. but lets bear in mind the klingons were not heavily employing cloaks at this point, so the federation wouldn't have to match it and im of the view that miranda was built to face the klingons whilst other (often lighter) ships like the Akula and Columbia while of little use against the klingons would be a good "Submarine Hunter" force. the columbia following excelsiors design language.
i think there is a difference between installing a ship with a cloak and building it from scratch to cloak
Captain Harriman snapped on a Tuesday...
I still don't think that the Federation used cloaking tech...
First, in the Pegasus, the Treaty of Alergon was said to ban the Federation from" developing" cloaking technology. Not give up cloaking technology. It makes no sense to ban someone from developing something which they already developed and used on their ships.
Second, it still makes sense for the Romulans, who prefer to play the long game, to prevent the Federation from developing cloaking tech in the future. So that they (the Romulans) would have an advantage over the Federation in the future. This is the same power that instigated a Klingon civil war to gain a long-term advantage over the Federation.
Third, just because Starfleet captured cloaking devices, doesn't mean that they used them to develop their own. The Federation has obtained many pieces of tech which they don't use due to various reasons.
Forth, it does not makes sense that the huge bulges on the Excelsior II secondary hull would be for a cloaking device. The cloak that Kirk stole fit into his arms and was installed on a medium sized console in an original connie. But 30 years later, the cloak and associated systems take up 10,000 times the volume?
As a side note... if the Federation already had cloaking tech and then gave it up just so that the Romulans might not attack them in the future, then the Federation is far more stupid than they already look for signing that treaty. The treaty didn't stop the Romulans from trying to invade Vulcan or violating Federation space with impunity.
Well technically cloaks bend light to make the ship invisible. The ship is still there. You could find it with radar, or if its underwater-sonar.
What does Picard mean the Bounty was lost in the bay? They didn't have a cloak engaged when they landed and you're seriously telling me that between 'Voyage Home' and 'Picard', they never once went out and dredged the bay in those hundreds of years? Fuck Kurtzman and NuTrek.
Also, I remember when 'First Contact' came out, the toy version of the Enterprise E stated that it had a cloaking device on the back of the box. This always intrigued me because I knew that the Federation didn't have cloaks on their ships (aside from the Defiant) and not having the internet back then as we do now, I couldn't just "look it up". Really makes you wonder what they had planned for the E.
i like the ghost ship theory more, it sounds a lot better than being destroyed right after leaving space dock.
It never appears on screen so sadly isn't cannon 😅..Nice argument 👍 👏...plus the Treaty of Algeron was a ban on the development and use I don't see any front line Federation ships having illicit tactical systems that if found could lead to war Starfleet just doubled down on every other area still by the 25th century being the quadrant hyper power if not the galactic that's were the UFP will eventually achieve 😉
sufficiently explained, thank you very much
I like it a little more that the B is still there, like a coffin that will only be murdered shortly after being born.
Me: *Enjoying the story of the least told Enterprise*
Venom: The Enterprise-B is out there completely intact and completely dead.
Me: *sad existential dread noises*
Edit me that’s had time to ponder: It went out in a filler episode, not an action-pact double parter or a movie, but a random filler episode.
Section 31 never gave up their cloaking devices because laws are for other people.
do what it takes to keep the good guys afloat ... while S31 is shady they are still part of the good guys
SECTION 31 ISN'T CANON
The federation always struck me as kind of stupid, without section 31, which is vastly more interesting than regular Starfleet it (the Federation) wouldn't be around very long.
@@M167A1, Section 31 exists to be the eternal pessimists in the glorious optimistic future. To safeguard idealism in a universe which is harsh beyond the Federation's borders. They stay awake so that others may sleep comfortably. That is their mission and their burden.
@@andrewblanchard2398 it is though its part of the tng and to a part enterprises timeline though they weren't called like that yet
honestly Id half buy that it took them a while to find the bounty, not because the bounty's cloak but because when they finally started looking for the ship it was atleast a decade when they decided to look for the ship again and well they forgot where the ship crashlanded.
the enterprise D's end was a tad...embarrasing, but atleast it wasnt retired after a decade or two like a certain OTHER enterprise we all know and love.
I have fell in love with your theory years ago and it has been head cannon for me ever since. It just makes so much sense timeline-wise.
If it's Tuesday, it's Tomed time!
After revisiting the idea of the Enterprise-B now basically being a ghost ship, I REALLY wanna see a Star Trek show that’s more focused on cosmic horror. Not sure how well it would do, but a guy can dream
I disagree with a some of your theories, but the cloak one is solid.
That is true regarding the Klingon BOP. Also, a cloaked ship immersed in water should show up on sonar just fine.
I h8 TrekCentral... especially that guy who insists on calling himself a "leftenant."
I'd be intrested if you have any thoughts on this topic?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I don't think that the Enterprise-B had a cloaking device. Roddenberry said the reason why Starfleet doesn't typically have them is because "our guys don't sneak around."
@@DarinRWagner hmm. So what about those blueprints?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I would assume those are a clerical error... possibly by a third party licensee.
Actually the treaty prevented the Federation from developing cloaking technology which is why the Defiant was not in breach of the treaty. It wasn't using a Federation created cloak. As for the subject at hand, sorry to break it to you but you presented no evidence whatsoever. What you presented was conjecture and opinion and if you want to believe it did, that's perfectly fine. We have practically no canonical lore on the B so headcannon it however you want. Just don't present it as fact.
the defiant wasn't in breach of the treaty because it was only meant to be used in the gamma quadrant (for all the good it did) if the ban was just on development then they could have just bought cloaks from the klingons.
yay youtube makers waring over each other while we the fan base get feed more cooler interesting info ty Venom Geek
I don't think you are ranting. I have been in law enforcement for 30 years and a majority of them as a investigator and I think you put together a great case for it having a Cloaking Device.
tbh for my taste you are often a little much protective of your head canon 😉 - while you put a lot of good thought into it, I have to admit
that being said, this is one of the theories where I find myself agreeing with you. It is well researched, nicely argued and adds nicely to the universe. I often find myself hoping that you would spend a little more time on working in beta canon sources instead of dismissing them when you don't particularly like it, but whatever, I like what you are doing
btw would be really cool to have a cloaked Ent-B being somewhere lost in the romulan empire
I was planning on animating this exact thing earlier
please do i'd love to see it
I recall that each time the treaty is mentioned, they say it prevents the federation from "developing" its own cloaking technology.
Gotta love those years where the Enterprise B painted all of their registry numbers mirrored left to right....like at the 19 minute mark....
What I want to know is, in the Enterprise Incident the Starfleet ordered Kirk (under the table) to steal the Clocking device be cause they needed it because they knew F all about it otherwise why steal it? So How the F did Kirk know how to remove it without causing all kinds of s**t the Romulans would pick up on the bridge? Also how the F would Scotty know how to install it on the Enterprise even though it was designed to work in a Romulan system which has been established in TNG uses a different type of power without causing the Enterprise to say F it I'm done?
He had a good guess?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 yes , that It really needs an in-universe explanation, now that I think about it, but then that would give "deep space 9" some air to the original series. with starfleet ordering the theft of enemy technology in a time that does not allow it to be done justifiably, but this technology was not known (not counting ENT.) but as happens in SNW, some guard post in the neutral zone would have been account of the cloaking device and notify the command...
VG has the best videos.
1:26 23rd century..... Advanced comms and computers. Plans printed on paper you can get at an office store. Also about the Bounty i believe it got lost because it literally flew itself under water after it was freed from the whale probe and was sinking due to the cargo being opened up. Also I will stand by on this it took the protostar shuttle pod to find it because the craft landed exactly where the bounty did.
Can’t hack a sheet of paper
Did it arrive on Tuesday?
I mean no offense dawg, but you answered your own question. Why would the Federation be banned from using/developing cloaks *if they had not already done so?!*
But I really, really enjoyed the deep-dive on the fate of "Black Sheep B" (as I call her, on account of her terrible luck making her the black sheep of the family), its a piece of Trek Lore that deserves a better look! I of course have my own theory on what happened to her, but that's a story that must be read to be found out! Excellent job as always!
It is possible that any ban on use was preemptive.
@@Mr_Sovik It is possible... although it seems a little specific to be preemptive
@@Relav1364 What is too specific?
@@Mr_Sovik That the Federation would be prohibited from using or developing cloaks. That would seem to suggest the Romulans deliberately leveraged a strategic advantage from the treaty negotiations.
Its unlikely... but its not impossible either
The Enterprise B is a floating tomb filled with skeletons...
🤪
Interesting thought, what if the 'B' was cloaked when the crew was overcome? She would inevitably drift out of standard shipping lanes, and if not found in short order after the warp core shuts down and the cloak falters, it could drift dead in space for centuries without ever being found. It could make an interesting story creepy ghost ship story line. Especially if it was eventually found by the Borg.
Cloaking devices absolutely work in a non-space media. We've seen cloaking devices work in planetary atmosphere _multiple_ times. In _multiple_ incarnations of the franchise.
What he means is that the Federation would be able to detect the ship's displacement of the air or water around it with their sensors, whereas in the vacuum of space you can't do that. He didn't mean that a cloaking device doesn't cause a ship to be invisible to the naked eye in atmosphere/water.
Haven’t watched the Tomed incident yet, it kind of looks like the Romulan Cloaking device wasn’t completely able to integrate with the Constitution mK I. They could make it work for short term to get out of a problem, but not for long term.
The Constitution Refit would have the Cloaking Device installed directly, but had a few problems with it. It just never really was fully integrated and could randomly fail. It wasn’t until the Klingon cloaking device was reverse engineered that the Federation was able to get it fully operational and as an integral design in the Excelsior refit that it was working to full capabilities.
This would mean that during the Tomed incident the Romulans realized that the Federation Cloaking worked better than theirs by an order of magnitude. The Romulans only saving grace was they had significantly more of them, seeing as only the Excelsior refits could properly use them. The Tomed incident showed that the Federation could use a Cloaking device far better than the Romulans, which is why they were very adamant that the Federation could no longer use Cloaks.
This is supported by the Next Generation episode where in Secret and much fewer resources they were able to develop a Phase Cloak. Where the Romulans using Cloaking on a much higher level weren’t even close to it. The Scimitar’s ‘perfect cloak’, was more likely made up of a bunch of smaller integrated Cloaking devices. Supported by the fight with the Enterprise E.
@VGM, sorry you lost me at "Cloaks don't work in atmosphere!" As we repeatedly see it working in atmosphere in ST:IV, and the movie plot would have been completely broken if it wasn't working. 1980s US military would have been all over Golden Gate Park. In fact we see Sulu flying the plastic sheets into the cloaking field, showing that very clearly the field does work in a gas environment. So I'm sorry, but I'm done watching your 'retread' video at this point.
Considering the Enterprise-B was involved in the Tomed Incident (at least according to the "Enterprise Workshop Owner's Manual") prior to the Treaty of Algernon it would make sense the 1701-B would have a cloaking device. Since the episode "The Enterprise Incident" states that the Federation was trying to understand cloaking technology and "Balance of Terror" established that a claoed vessel would leave a trail traveling through the trail of a comet both A) the Enterprise-B would have some form of a cloaking device and B) the Bounty would be noticed due to at least "volume displacement" and be seen.
Consider Romulan sneakiness. I reckon the Ent-B's fate was, after Tomed a Romulan managed to infiltrate the ship posing as a Vulcan officer. And then proceeded to disperse this plague; in truth a bioweapon, possible using themself as the vessel carrying it (ie infected before boarding). And then as the plague spread this agent could have moved more easily through the ship with the crew in the throes of succumbing to the bioweapon and sabotaged their warp drive and comms systems effectively snuffing and stranding them.... with no help coming and no way to search for help, dying.
Later the Romulans claim responsibility and threaten further similar attacks after single handedly destroying the flagship with one agent. The Federation agrees to a cessation of escalation with the treaty of Algeron and bury the incident in public knowledge, making it a senior officer or higher even secret. Explaining the obscene level of paranoia in high ranking older members of starfleet regarding Romulan infiltrators. In drumhead she wasnt simply prejudiced and insane. That woman might have believed she was about to uncover a repeat of the Enterprise B happening on the D.
Lot of speculation, but fun assumptions. Supposedly, the Treaty of Algeron prohibited both the development and use of cloaking devices, emphasis on development. Regardless, very well put together video and makes for some very fun ST thought exercises! Would never say that she absolutely had a cloak, but possible. Keep vids coming, very enjoy your perspective.
Cloaking device? That won't be installed until Tuesday.
congrats to 30k. I dont always agree with your opinions but respect that you accept the idea that starfleet is a military. a noble one sure but to be insulting all life is human after all. keep up the good work good health and good winds.
We're back to all the controversy generated by The Search for Spock.
There was so much hype after The Wrath of Khan, key to all the ANTICIPATION! Included the new FASA products ESPECIALLY Star Trek: The Role Playing game. In the game, the stats for the new Excelsior class battleship was released. Not a experimental one off ship full of new technologies. But a production line, of new generation vessels to reach past, all previous Federation vessels.
Old trekkies like myself fully expected to see ALL the technology obtained by NCC 1701, during her five years mission. A ship that had SURVIVED traveling at Transwarp speed, on numerous occasions. As well as successfully stealing a Romulan cloaking device, from the Romulans! Later when the Klingon scout ship is controlled by. James T. Kirk. Cmdr Scott had little difficulty in modifying snd IMPROVING the Klingon cloak to be optional at all times. Once on 20th century Earth. The ship was able to remain closked, while landed. WITH MAIN POWER OFFLINE! Scotty also modified the ship's " nain Energizer to; "something less primitive!"
Most frustrating of all was a short seen I remember from the theater. Shortly after The Search for Spock was released. A short clip, then removed, never to be seen again. Left out of later prints. I
The scene showed a Klingon ambassador addressing an intergalactic assembly. His words echoing Dr Mickoy's reaction to the Genesis project. Taking about the Excelsior class. A class of ship. Cruising at Transwarp speed, using cloaking devices to fire genesis torpedoes into the worlds of all other interstellar species! He called openly, quickly seconded ny the Romulan delegation. For a universal war, to destroy the Federation before the Excelsior class could be deployed in sufficient numbers.
Kirk arrived with the Enterprise, with a fanatically loyal crew. Once the Enterprise is docked, suddenly ALL crew members are summarily reassigned. Enterprise is left abandoned without the formality of a decommissioning ceremony!
It's seems obvious that to ensure peace. The Federation was barred from using Transwarp drive, cloaking devices and genesis torpedoes. I think it's fair to say, that the Federation was equally horrified by the potential genesis project. The Klingons were furious by their FAILURE, to seize gensis for themselves.
So I have always expected the recalibrated Transwarp drive, and cloaking devices were fitted to all or most Excelsior class ships. In the event that the treaty barring their use, was broken. A far more satisfactory reason for the crazy longevity of the Excelsiors in service. An Excelsior captain would have the classified ability to reactivate these these classified systems.
Sulu's Daughter was adopted.
What makes you say that?
@@venomgeekmedia9886Because Sulu was 🏳️🌈 in the Kelvin timeline and because Takei is in real life, they've sort of retconned it in Current Year: He was _always_ 🏳️🌈 and if you argue then you're a Bad Mid-Century German friend of That Austrian Painter. 🤦🏻♂️
nunca sabremos con seguridad
@@danielseelye6005 I'm fine with kelvin sulu being gay, given that he also uses a a katana instead of a rapier. They are quite different sulu's. But Takei himself played sulu as straight, and I think we should respect the actors choices.
Captains name? : Captain Johnson junior.
Captains name on the lower decks? : Captain small willy.
Look at starfleet technology in the trek universe, it's some of the best around, if the Klingons have it and I know they traded for it but they would have to understand it to repair and maintain it, then the federation would be easily able to create their own, regardless of having the stolen prototype or not. I bet the federations was so good and they used it so well, that it frightened the shit out the Romulans and thats's why they insisted the federation be banned from having them. Conversely it would also mean the Romulans cloaking technology wasn't great nor is their understanding even after having it for so long. Through all the shows, the federation was nearly always able to detect cloaked ships, so that means their ability to understand the technology is very high, even when they don't use it and then when a small group of ppl made the one for the Prometheus, look at how crazy and advanced that cloak was, a cloak that was at that stage a decade or two old when we see it, again compare it to the latest Romulan tech and it makes theirs look a generation or two behind.
I have no problem with the Federation having cloaking devices before the Treaty of Algeron, after it becomes problematic. The Treaty of Algeron was signed in 2311. The Excelsior refit was launched in the 2290s (The Enterprise 1701-B was launched in 2293 which could have been the first Excelsior refit class launched we don’t actually know.) However, the schematics you showed with the cloaking device installed is of the Constitution refit not the Excelsior refit. If the Constitution refit had a cloaking device, which was likely installed in every Constitution refit, then wouldn’t they just install a cloaking device on every Excelsior class to begin with? The explanation that creating the Excelsior refit was done to install a cloaking device is wrong. For one thing the Enterprise 1701, pre-refit, (with on bloody A, B, C or D or the other ones too.) managed to handle a cloaking device with out needing to be refit (The Enterprise Incident) and according to that apocryphal schematic the Enterprise refit handled it just fine from its launch (Star Trek: The Motion Picture). There isn’t a good explanation for why the Excelsior Refit has the stupid wings hanging off of it other then it was a production issue. The Excelsior model couldn’t be damaged for the Production of Star Trek: Generations because Star Trek: Deep Space Nine needed it or might have needed it for the production of that show. I ask again, if the Constitution Refit (now called Constitution-II class) can have a cloaking device from construction then why wouldn’t the Excelsior (NX-2000 and other Excelsior class) have a cloaking device from its construction? Also an implication isn’t actual evidence and certainly isn't proof, the Romulans could have simply demanded it or they would have signed the treaty or the Romulans thought the Federation had cloaking technology so they actually created cloaking technology to keep up, but the Federation didn’t have cloaking technology so why it came time for the Treaty of Algeron they had their chance to manipulate the Federation to stop or prevent the Federation from creating or using their own cloaking technology. (Something like this happened in World War II, the CIA leaked information to the Germans that they were experimenting with mind control and assignations though mind manipulation and the Germans started their actual experiments to keep up so the CIA then learned that so the CIA started doing their experiments leading to the MK-Ultra program.) Also according to Paramount and CBS nothing is official cannon unless it happens on screen, any novel, comic, guidebook, technical manual, show bible (created by the production team) or/and anything very very heavily implied isn’t canon unless it is on screen in an episode of official recognized canon series and movies of which Star Trek: The Animated Series is not official canon and the novel written by Jeri Taylor (Co-creator and Producer of Star Trek: Voyager) called Star Trek: Voyager Pathways isn’t canon. The reason Paramount and CBS want this is because is the producers want to contradict anything at a later date they aren’t beholden to a comic book that someone wrote in the 1960s.
The actual reason Starfleet and Federation ships don’t have cloaking devices is a production reason. Star Trek doesn’t have its hero ships cloak for very simple reasons, what do you do with a cloaked starship when you are trying to create an establishing shot. Like in the TOS episode "The Cage" when the camera zooms in on the bridge or how interesting would it be to see a cloaked starship flying through space and every single time the ship does anything like beam down to a planet or attempt to meet with a ship they need to decloak, which would be an absolute waste of time for every single episode and would have the ship avoid so many interesting things that they show would be boring. The reason the Federation doesn’t use cloaking technology is because the show is much more interesting without them. It is essentially the same reason for the Transporters, the cost of shooting a shuttle landing scene every time the crew goes to a planet is a huge cost savings, especially in the 60s, it was much easier to put some glitter in a glass and mix it around and use a fade in and out on the actors.
Regardless of that stupid BS, none of that actually matters, why wouldn’t the Federation have and use cloaking devices? For one how do you protect the Federation citizens from cloaking devices if you don’t learn every you can about cloaking technology? Wouldn’t the Federation have and use cloaking technology to learn to defeat and detect cloaked vessels, even after the Treaty of Algeron but before the Treaty of Algeron, what would stop the Federation and Starfleet from having Cloaking Devices, absolutely nothing. They would be stupid if they didn’t do everything that they can to beat cloaking technologies. But why wouldn’t a Starfleet starships have cloaking devices on them before the Treaty of Algeron, except they couldn’t make it work properly or completely for Starfleet starship designs but then why wouldn’t they adapt their ships to a more Klingon or Romulan design philosophy? After the Treaty Starfleet and the Federation would still use cloaking technology, if for nothing else then to develop ways to defeat it and then there is Section 31.
One last thing, as no Star Trek episode of any series or movie mentions The Tomed Incident, not even Star Trek Picard. It was mentioned it two novels, each likely having their own explanation for the Tomed Incident. The first was "Star Trek: The Return” by William Shatner published on April 1st, 1996. The second one was "Star Trek: The Lost Era 2311 Serpents Among the Ruins” by David R. George III published on September 1st 2003 neither of these books are official canon as such they are apocryphal and don’t count and canon. The in-canon explanation for the signing of The Treaty of Algeron has yet to be explained. The only thing we know is that it was sign in 2311 based on the Star Trek: Enterprise’s final episode "These are the Voyages…" beyond that there is nothing else relevant and related to the Treaty of Algeron except that it changed the Romulan Neutral Zone and that the Federation could not develop cloaking technology. Also the only thing we know about the Enterprise B is what happened in Star Trek: Generations and the same goes for the Captain and Crew of the Enterprise B. I understand that you are a TH-camr and that requires you to make videos but you should let people know that you are using speculation or beta canon or whatever but that it isn’t official Star Trek Canon from Paramount or CBS. Also I am not trying to upset you or attack you in any way. If it comes off that way I apologize.
I could be wrong, but didn't the treaty of algeron band the development of a cloaking device? I could swear that it banned the development specifically, not the use. Such wording would imply that Starfleet didn't have a ship with a working cloak at that time.
“May you live in interesting times” was absolutely a curse. Nobody wants “interesting.” Everyone wants stable, uneventful, boring.
The Federation's cloaking technology should be light years beyond Romulan or the janky stuff they sold the Klingons. I honestly don't see why the enterprise B, new version or not, and the rest of the Excelsior's wouldn't have cloaking devices similar to the Scimitar's perfect cloak.
And the Bounty was on display at the museum in Picard. Along with the K'Tinga class battlecruiser that the Klingons gave the Federation on the signing of the Kitomer alliance.
In my Star Trek universe, the Federation never agreed to NOT develop cloaking & phase cloaking devices. NOT having a phase cloak on every Federation vessel severely limits what Starfleet can do. Period!! I don’t need to explain myself further
No! The Enterprise B can’t cloak! Where are you getting this from! BREBLLWHA!
While you make good arguments, and I think the Federation absolutely used cloaking devices during the Early era, your video becomes harder to watch when you get other facts about the canon wrong. Kirk was a Captain when he died on the Enterprise B, not an Admiral. A Cloaking device would not be housed in the section around the Deflector, but rather more centralized, and Utilizes the shield grid the most powerful defensive system on the ship. In all instances we see the Cloaking device being handled, it is in main engineering next to the warp core, do to its intense need for power. The side flares on the Excelsior MK II was to house an additional array for the Deflector controls, as Starfleet hadn't entirely given up on Transwarp and at the time a breakthrough had been made regarding the use of the Deflector to break through the threshold. Several ships were built with the intension of testing this theory and while it did push warp drives to new levels, transwarp as it was envisioned at the time was never achieved. The technology was then adapted to improve warp speeds in later models.
Blueprints aren’t canon. If it’s not on screen, it’s not canon. Even if we entertain that they are, Andrew Probert’s Mr Scott’s Guide To The Enterprise book goes through every inch of the ship and its functions, and there is no cloaking device. No other blueprints have ever included a cloaking device. The same blueprint pack includes a Klingon ship with completely incorrect dimensions compared to canon. DS9 canon puts that ship 40% longer than those blueprints.
Even if the Treaty of Algeron proved that the federation were using cloaking devices, it doesn’t prove that one was on the 1701 refit let alone on the enterprise B.
I think we have to take a step back and accept that this is all sci fi and therefore you can’t cogently argue that something never seen on screen exists because none of it exists in the universe until it’s on screen. We’re talking about ILM wooden models. Stunning models that took hundreds of hours with some incredibly sophisticated paint jobs, but models all the same.
Did you ever hear the tragic story of the "Dark" Enterprise B who could cloack? It's a Venomgeek legend. Certainly not a story Trek Central would tell you. Its Ironic - she could hide from others - but not herself 😉😁
5:33 I have seen pictures of those schematics but where could I verify their authenticy?
5:43 I wonder how that would work in terms of combat if both vessels were cloaked? Furthermore, you'd expect this technology to be employed in "Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan" given its more militaristic depiction of Starfleet. I mean, I have a theory as to what the USS Enterprise was up to between the first two movies.
Yeah, Starfleet would have found the Klingon BOP very easily.
And yes, Federation was using cloaking devices. Most likely, with scouting missions, not in all capital ships. It is, as the video stated, an open and shut case.
Seems legit 🤷♂️. Also, to back up your point about the cloaked Bird of Prey. In Insurrection they literally show what happens when a ship cloaks underwater. It was very easy to find the holoship..
I read somewhere that they did the upgrades was that starfleet discovered that the early production Excelsior 's were getting very bad battle damage in really light battles around their navigational deflector and it made going to warp somewhat difficult.
thank you for using this stargate explanation of wacko a 100 percent applause for you good Sir we're not sticking only to Star Trek to get your memes. Plus there's a precedent before Kirk for crazy **** captains Garth Advisor Captain Tracy of the Omega Glory captain Decker of the Phallic vagina episode and that's just three I can think of the top of the top in my head i'm sure there are others picard under the influence of the free mind control devices voyager the captain of the equinox I can't remember his name now. but his darkship captains go nuts not all of them just the ones that can't keep it in line can't control who and what they are either they become God like or they become arrogant beyond belief kirk was heading that way until the incident of Vijay and then Ralph Khan where he lost spock Those two incidents On Kirk I can do no wrong and you can see a building throughout the series little by little.
Ok, i'd say that Enterprise and Enterprise A may not have been using the romulan cloaking device after the episode where Kirk stole it from the romulans but that may have been because they had given the device to research and development to study it. I could agree that the excelsior ships could have used them but the Enterprise A was not equipped with it - or saving Kirk and McCoy from Rura Penthe would be easier AND the battle against general Chang would be more eaqual with both ships being able to cloak.
Don’t know if you will see this but I hope in canon they explain what the heck happened to the B, E and The F is still a bit iffy if it was destroyed in Picard Season 3 because it wasn’t in the Fleet Museum and the G is currently in service we know the Fates of the Nx-01, the TOS, the A, the C, the D and G I would like a in canon explanation of what happened to the B, E and F maybe the Section 31 movie will tell us what happened to the B as it’s set in the lost due to the fact a young Rachel Garrett is appearing in it
Well argued and here’s a plus: Trek Central I worked for and it is run by a preening egomaniac called Jack who can’t take constructive criticism of any level - even as little as ‘oh, it’s spelled …’.
He also took my name off articles I wrote and credited himself. He’s likely doing that to others unfortunately writing for him.
He pretends to be others so he can claim he’s too busy to talk.
So congratulations on doing the job better than them
Also the treaty with the Klingons after the undiscovered country, they may of had in the treaty the swapping of technology including the Klingons clocks
Question. After the Romulans sun went nova (super dumb by the way) does that mean Starfleet will develop cloaking devices since the only thing stopping them was their deal with the Romulans?
One should never underestimate the Federation. You think the dark void of space is full of unknown things, & other races who would shoot up your ship as look at you…look at what the Federation can do, once someone ticks them off!! Then, it’s no-holds-barred…
Question: why do you think the cloak is in the bulges next to the deflector dish, instead of the strange, ugly ribbed thick black windowless neck that should be an elegant slim sail like most other Starfleet vessels?
Only way the treaty’s of Algeron makes sense as a peace treaty which prohibited the federation from having or developing cloaking technology. Is of they already had it in all the ships or next of them pre the tomed incident. Ships which would include the enterprise B.
I thought, the ban of using cloaking devices for the federation was a preemptive ban. essentially, the romulans telling the federation: don't even think about developing cloaking devices. we know, you got your hands on them in the past.
there is also the other situation, that the romulans would need means to control the ban of cloaking devices for the federation. why should for example section 31 actually care about this ban? most in the federation didn't know about section 31, they were really good at covering their tracks. cloaking devices would have been their go to tool to covertly do stuff.
So nice of you to improve the Excelsior design 6:45 by extending the hull. I never liked the design due to this stupidly fragile looking overhang. The original Enterprise and the A, C and E it looks much better.
I actually wonder if the Excelsior transwarp experiment could have really been a cover for developing a cloaking device. This would help explain the apparent plot holes created by the Excelsior transwarp.