TACTICAL BREAKDOWN! Klingon K'tinga vs Original Constitution Class from Star Trek
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2024
- Can the original Constitution class cruiser from Star Trek the original series survive an attack from the newly built K'tinga class battlecruiser!? Lets break this down with some CG and see what happens!
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Dialog in the Original Series stated the Enterprise having at least 6 torpedo tubes in "Journey to Babel" when Kirk orders tubes 2, 4, and 6 to be made ready.
i could watch these hypothetical battles all day. better than actual start trek at this point. thanks for all your hard work and for sharing
😂, so true, fan content has become vastly more logical, consistent and engaging (realistic military strategies) than the shows 😢!
I've always loved the old-school starship combat, where every maneuver is important and every shot helps determine the course of the battle.
Thank you for this battle simulation! I really enjoyed this confrontation, and I especially appreciated how you used the IKS Amar from the first Star Trek film of 1979 fame. ; ) The only thing that I would have changed in this really fascinating simulation would be to have other cloaked K'tinga battle cruisers standing off at a distance ready to intervene and destroy the Hood if the Hood managed to triumph over the Amar, as the Klingons would not want the Hood to escape to inform the Federation of the Klingon attack.
Agree. The captain of that ship and his first officer are in for a rough ride later despite their Victory here
I know im probably wrong, but all the original Constitution class had different configurations/variants. Some had more science equipment, more weapons . So the Defiant always made sense to me having aft torpedoes.
Indeed the original 1701 didn't get many refits (during TOS, SNW has had two major repairs already and is definitely in for a third) since it was out on its five year mission whilst other Constitution class ships probably were. Enterprise was the flagship but like many others in history, not meant as the primary damage dealer in war (this is true of all Enterprises bar E which was explicitly a war time vessel meant to lead combat if needed) so other ships got the additional weapons as power and control systems improved.
Additionally I'm fairly certain that The Enterprise was the first (or at least one of the first) Constitution class ships and as such would again not have the latest and best version of tech on it.
@@psoma_brufdin the books, the Enterprise and the U.S.S. Constitution herself were built together, and both served as the prototypes for their class, and both even had the experimental NX registry prefix. So yes, she was one of the first to be built, but she and the Constitution were generally kept up to spec with their sister ships, so any differences in equipment loadouts between each of their class shouldn't be anything too drastic.
Depends largely on the Canon, in FASA Trek this line of different loadouts/configs depending on the ship was true as the Constitution Class became less of a war vessel and more of a multipurpose vessel.
But in more general sense of canon after FASA, it is believed that the Constitution class vessels were kept in general line with one another give or take with minor changes to the way the engineers on each vessel repaired and made their ship.
In the TOS episode "Mirror, Mirror," Spock orders a phaser barrage of the Halkan planet, while referencing the "Starbord phasers" (or maybe it was "Port phasers"), confirming that the Enterprise had phaser banks on either side.
Additionally, in at least one episode, I'm pretty sure the background coms chatter references "Aft Phasers." You really need to be listening to the background intercom chatter to catch it.
There's technical manuals for all of these ships. Memory alpha states six phaser emitters three top of the saucer three on the bottom of the saucer to forward torpedo launchers and one Aft.
I am familiar with all of the technology manuals created until the next generation came out, which was about the same time as the Internet. The blue prints clearly show six total phasors, in three banks all on the detachable saucer section. 2 forward port , 2forward starboard, and two forward. The 2 torpedo tubes originally in the saucer section got moved to the lower hull for the enterprise class, and they still didn't have aft firing weapons even then. It was simply seen as a waste of time to have aft firing weapons . In the event that the saucer section dose separate from the main hull, then it has only the impulse engines which really are not enough to power a phasor, maybe a Mac of one tenth of the power to each of 4 phasors, and obviously not warp capable.... While the main hull.. if it was not already traveling at warp, would never be able to achieve it without the impulse engines.
I really think the old school Connie was meant to have aft torpedoes. And probably the D7 too we just never saw it with 60s special effects. The scenario is plausible though. Good animations.
In my head canon. I always presumed that the same torpedo bay had forward and aft facing tubes.
The forward tube is a more capable dual launcher with better range and acceleration to target. And the aft torpedo launcher was a single tube launcher with a more limited range.
@Uhohoreo the Enterprise did have aft torpedoes. In the Errand of Mercy episode when the Romulans fired their plasma weapon while the Enterprise tried to outrun it Kirk ordered Mr Sulu to arm the aft photon torpedoes but Sulu replied they were offline.
@@robertmartinjr.4537 This would fall in line with the "submarine" style of combat the episodes that had any kind of ship combat favored. Submarines of the period nearly all had forward and aft torpedo tubes.
@MrArgus11111 yeah it wouldn't make sense for the connies to have forward weapons only just to have its flanks exposed. The connies also had aft phasers too.
@@robertmartinjr.4537
While I do agree it would not make much sense for aft weapons to not exist on the Enterprise; I just rewatched the episode and even skimmed through the Transcript of Errand of Mercy and could not find the exact quotations where Kirk ordered Aft Weapons and Sulu responding they were offline. (In fact according to transcripts; it seems as though “Offline” does not appear in the episode at all)
Granted the Chakoteya Transcripts aren’t perfect (they lack Kirk mentioning Magnetic Pulses as the weaponry used by the Klingons earlier in the episode during the attack), but I don’t see this as definitive proof of Constitution Class vessels having aft weaponry, is there another episode you might be confusing this quotation for perhaps?
Actually, some of the original constitution class Starships did have aft torpedoes in TOS episode errand of mercy when the romulan fired their plasma weapon Kirk ordered the aft torpedoes but Mr Sulu said the aft torpedoes were offline. Now the refit constitution class didn't have aft torpedoes but more phaser arrays.
The critical moment of your scenario was obviously the second attack where the Federation torpedos missed but the Klingon torpeodes hit. By weaking the front shield instead of equalizing them, the Federation captain must have been attempting to lure the Klingons to attack from that direction. So the Federation captain must have been ready to fire. Yet the Klingon ship was able to decloak with all weapons charged, fire, and then pull off a harsh maneuver that could avoid a photon torpedo at relatively close range even though it had been uparmored from a D7 and presumably had more mass to pull. This means it probably had better engines which probably required even more power than a D7's maneuvering whatevers. To me it seems that the biggest modification and improvement was the power systems. They had to be significantly beefier to do all that.
And weirdly that makes sense considering how the 'new' Enterprise behaved in the motion picture. Remember how alpha it was after launch? All the malfunctioning systems used a lot of power. And didn't the warp core go vertical around that time? Maybe panicked engineers from Utopia Planetia or whatever pushed out tech because Starfleet was breathing down their necks. Cuz if you include the Axanar lore, a Constitution Class ship getting whooped by a K'tinga,would bring back scary memories.
And that's kind of nice. If Axanar is correct, the Constitution Class came to life beating the D7. And now the next Klingon generation effectively ends its life. Can you imagine the party on the Klingon home world when they got home?
I think what many folks don't realize anymore is just how powerful the Enterprise was in TOS. Either deliberately or unconsciously, TNG era ships were somewhat stepped down in power - not unlike what happened to Superman after christopher Reeves.
In multiple digalogues, it's establsihed that Enterprise could destroy a planet. In "The Changeling," her shields absorbed the equivalent of 360 of her own photon torpedoes.
In "Elaan of Troyus," Enterprise fended off multiple attacks from a D-7 - first on screen appearance - at 10% power. When warp power was restored, she turned and fired a spread of "6" photon torpedoes, only one of which directly hit and crippled the Klingon. 1 hit.
One of the non-canon reasons stated for why klingon ships travel in 3's is that alone they stand no chance against a Constitution / Enterprise class vessel. IMO, based on a lifetime of Trek enthusiasm and a great deal of technical knowledge and research, I believe that this scenario, while interesting, is probably unlikely. that and the K't'inga did some things, as previous mentioned, that are simply beyond possible. A ship cloaked does not have weapons charged. It's either or, not both. It would take time, and Hood would have plenty of time to both maneuver and fire on the Klingon before his eeapons were ready. Posibly - I'll adit that reaction times for the K't'inga with its greater power might be possible, but against an armed starship with the weapons' officer's finger on the trigger... unlikely. Just some food for thought :)
Cloaked Ships can charge weapons, but they can't charge shields.
Well, you're forgetting one thing, older ships had weaker shields and weapons... So them having weaker weapons would make the stronger tos ship seem to be able to take a beating more... Its just the other races they fought in Tng were more on parr with the then Starfleet ships
IThere is no indication that TOS or TMP era ships had weaker weapons. you might think so, looking at it superficially, but on screen evidence doesn't support this. Just as today, a WWI era battleship is still the most powerful mobile gun platform, I believe that phaser / photon torpedo strengths have probably not increased much. Again - 360 photorps absorbed by Entereprise's shields. Could the D do that? Even half that many? Or 10%? No doubt when the TNG era arrived, some retconning was done.ImO, it was the Klingon peace accords. Remember the question at the meeting at the beginning of ST6? "Are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet, Bill?"
Smilie says, 'I'm sure Starfleet's scientific and exploration programs would be unaffected."
This could indicate that military stepdowns would be put into place. one reason why they retired the constitution / Enterprise class. They were simply too powerful and represented a threat. Again, interesting speculation.
Both ships looked beautiful and wonderfully detailed during the spinning segments listing their technical read outs.
Epsilon Nine seemed to be at least in part a listening post near Imperial space so it is safe to assume the Federation was keeping tabs on new Klingon tech that was already deployed if not in complete common use. I think the Miranda class vs the K'tinga is one I would like to see.
A brilliant breakdown and a reasonable explanation as to why the Constitutions were given their refits. I can see a fight like this happening too with how the fights in this era were.
My general belief with the Constitution Class weapon layouts, I'd believe in there being an aft phaser emitter over a torpedo launcher up to a certain time frame of the life cycle of the class. I'd like to believe that above the shuttle bay observation dome was an emitter array that wasn't generally used in the show, given that the retrofit has two dual banks above the shuttle bay, and another set on the underside of the stardrive section. That said though, I feel that the ship's phasers were more of its focus and primary weapon over the photon torpedoes given the firing arcs and placements, and the narrow arc that the torpedo tubes had. It could be possible that while the Constitution Class ships all had the same hull configuration and layout, internally the ships could be different, the Lexington's bridge and captains chair come to mind with how different they were compared to the Enterprise, while others paralleled near similar internally to the Enterprise.
That said though, a well done break down scenario and definitely brings me back to my Star Trek: Starfleet Command days on the PC fielding the Connie against a D7C (albeit, without a cloaking device!).
disrupters require charge, consume power, and must be recharged. This would effect the choice of preferred weapon when the cloak is dropped.
Klingon captain is more likely to decloak and begin the attack with torpedoes and charge disrupters as torpedos travel/impact
An unshielded torpedo strike (or three) from behind would likely effect warp capability and impulse engines - which would explain why the hood didn't run from the ambush
Lame, the hood would probably prepare probes or other means to let starfleet know the Klingons were responsible and have a cloak. That would be a win scenario for the hood because the Klingons lose the secrecy of the attack and the progress of their weapons program.
In one way it can be implied that the Klingons only obtained cloaking technology when they obtained Romulan ships (the Bird of Prey was originally supposed to be a stolen Romulan design in ST III). Yet I also believe they had it around the time the K'Tinga was introduced in ST TMP due to the fact I clearly remember exterior blueprints that were released when the movie was and I had that listed a cloaking device for it and the plans were Paramount approved and thus canon. So your assumption it had one I think would be correct.
Fantastic effort. Only one criticism. Kor in a episode of deep space 9, stated that he had a early cloaking device on a D5 battlecruiser. Pre dating the ktinga class as well as the Klingon bird of prey in star trek 3. 👍👍
The Klingon D-10 Battle Cruiser was on a par with a Constitution Class Heavy Cruiser. FASA, had a Star Trek Combat Simulator board game back in the early 80's that had many ships, Federation, Klingon, Romulan, and Gorn, which had specific specs on each.
I definitely think it’s a plausible assumption that the “In a Mirror Darkly” Defiant had some modifications too. If it’s stern was lacking offensive capabilities perhaps it was improved?
5:10 the Defiant may have had a different loadout anyway. It's not at all uncommon for real world ships of the same class, perhaps built a decade apart, to be rolling out with wildly different equipment and capabilities.
This is a very interesting choice for a confrontation. I would speculate that the Katinga represented a Klingon effort to catch up with the Constitution utilizing a larger budget, stolen Fed tech, acquired Romulan tech and their own Klingon tech development. While various sources show D7s firing topedoes before, I do NOT believe they had that capability before Katinga and was their new big gun which was why it was used at the beginning of ST:TMP. The appearance of the Katinga is what I believe would have driven the Fed Council to the Constitution refit program and also to the Excelsior program.
In the game Star Fleet Battles, no matter who jumped who, the Disruptors of a Klingon ship were no match for the Photon Torpedoes of the Federation. There was a long running joke that played out in Space Gamer magazine that showed two D-7 SSD's, one of a clean ship, and one that was virtually destroyed. The caption read: "This is your ship, and this is your ship after taking a spread of four overloaded photon torpedoes. When your commander tells you to engage the Federation, Just say no!"
WOW! I have no words...I pray some of the fan films hire you for their space and battle scenes!
Your throwaway scenario was more compelling and had more thought put into it than anything I've seen out of the Star Trek brand in almost 20 years.
I want to see movie about what happened during the followup investigation!
TNG did show a K'Tinga decloaking in an early episode, but that one was ~70 years old by that point, so I'm not sure where that puts it relative to these. Pretty sure it's later than ST6.
Definitely later, it's actually from later than Star Trek Generation.
@@shadekerensky3691 I remember the Enterprise-D had zero trouble seeing through it. I can't remember the name, but it was that episode with the sleeper ship, they were worried the Klingons would wake up from cryo or whatever and start attacking Federation colonies.
@@shadekerensky3691 Actually now that I'm thinking about it, if the Klingons believed the war was still on with the Federation, wouldn't that make it pre-ST6? Idk, they always played fast and loose with canon and timelines lol.
In STO I love my D7. The K'tinga strikes fear into my enemies in the game. Also could you please do an update on the Phase 2 Enterprise design. Would be fun to bridge your TOS and TMP update the USS Yorktown would fit the bill.
That’s good. Need to play STO
Just got the K'tinga today after starting my first Klingon playthrough, it is a lovely ship.
@@Gaelic-Spirit did you get the Klingon captain bundle? You get a T6 Legendary K'tinga.
Thank you for your presentation, which is entirely plausible. Have ever seen the Star Trek The New Voyages episode "Blood and Fire"? The episode opens with a brutal battle between the TOS Enterprise and a K'tinga. Both ships were wailing the poggies out of each other, to use a BSG TOS slang word. The Enterprise wins the day, driving off the Klingon, which even after cloaking, flames from internal damage can be seen shooting out of the hull! This battle both confirmed my belief that:
1) the K'tinga is tactically superior to the TOS Connie, but
2) with a highly competent and capable Commander (Kirk, Decker, Wesley) and crews, a late TOS Constitution class can be a match for a K'tinga. It was still creditable threat! Which may explain why K'tingas roamed in threes. They certainly needed to be to take on a Refit.
If you haven't seen I highly recommend it.
Great video. Below are not slams, just some understanding that I have about this ship.
With a range of approximately 90,000 kilometers, the Constition's main phasers were targeted via directional beam produced by the navigator or helmsman via a direct line of communication with phaser crews located in the phaser control room. In order to prepare the ship for firing, the main phasers needed to be energized, primed, and brought to full power. (TOS: "The Corbomite Maneuver", "Balance of Terror", "Arena") Phaser tracking controls was also used in phaser operation. (TOS: "The Tholian Web")
This class of ship had a standard complement of six phaser emitters. This included placements at port, starboard, and mid-ship, among which were two to (up to) four forward phaser banks. (TOS: "Balance of Terror", "The Paradise Syndrome").
Phaser focus could be adjusted from a narrow to a wide beam. (TOS: "Who Mourns for Adonais?", "Whom Gods Destroy", "The Paradise Syndrome", "A Piece of the Action") Targeting was typically done visually, but could also be accomplished on motion sensors at a loss of accuracy. When only motion sensor readings were available, the ship's phasers could be set for proximity blast or a 100% dispersal pattern. (TOS: "Balance of Terror", "Errand of Mercy").
The outcome of this battle would still be close to the same, the exception (IMHO) the Kilingon's would have had far, far more damage done to them. The question I had, even if the starship Hood would have been destroyed, these ships had a "black box" known as a log buoy, also as a disaster recorder, recorder marker, space recorder, black box, or emergency buoy. (TOS: "Where No Man Has Gone Before"; Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan; TNG: "Descent, Part II").
Follow up. Klingons firing a volley of three torpedoes makes sense because if too close, the explosion of the first torpedoe may detonate, damage, or blind the following two torpedoes. Also, the torpedoes probably share data. If the first torpedo misses, it can send course corrections to the remaining torpedoes which have distance and time to make use of the new data-the chances of a hit increase with each torpedo because they learn from the failure of earlier torpedoes it the volley.
As an aside, I don't think the storytelling benefits if the opponent is always a lesser power rather than an equal or better. Meaning, if the federation is better, faster, stronger, smarter at everything, there's no reason that a sense of danger would develop.
A near peer rivalry effectively creates suspense, whereas the brawler with the puncher's chance is a scenario that constantly needs an excuse or disadvantage to create peril.
It's okay if the Klingons are different but equal. The federation armor doesn't shine less because their neighbors can give as good as the get.
In the commentary for In a Mirror Darkly, they admit that the aft torpedo was a cheat, because they needed it for the story.
Never understood why they couldn't just use the Defensive phasers mounted at the after near the hanger top of the hanger.
That's where I always imagined then being. An advanced but old style Crystal-emitter type or laser-typr even rather than the phase-Canon bore-type. This allows for better accuracy and attenuation capabilities etc. But at the cost of things like range and fire power especially.. possibly fire rate too etc.
An old style crusted would make sense as to why phaser-strips were so cool. It took a leap in technology to create a modular crystal-emitter type without the inherent draw backs.. kind of like Integrated-Chip tech allowed a major change in uhm..
Interesting setup. Great visuals. 10/10 would watch more!
The option of Klingons having a cloaking device was mentioned in the TAS episode "The Time Trap" in 1973
When you read off the damage to each ship I thought you must have got some bad rolls on the SFB Damage Allocation Chart! 😁
same :D
As an avid player of the FASA Star Trek game, I was mentally following along.
The movie D7-M (FASA designation) is a good match for the earlier Constitution.
I don't remember which game or lore book I own (FASA?) which called the D-7M as the K'Tinga, which was the first D-7 to carry aft firing torpedoes IIRC. Also, I seem to remember that being a big upgrade for the Enterprise class was aft firing torps.
The K'tinga class had one very superior upgrade in the Star Trek movie - they travelled in a squad of _three ships._
Starfleet should have always had their Constitution class ships have support/escort ships accompanying them when in dangerous territory. Then this sort of ambush could not be as easily pulled off.
Yeah, I've always wondered about that. For an organization called Starfleet, they certainly seem to do their level best to avoid operating like an actual _fleet._
My headcanon is that that's why the _Prometheus_ was designed. By the late 24th century, Utopia Planitia had gotten absolutely fed up with Starfleet sending ships into dangerous situations or on patrols one by one to get isolated and jumped (like in this video) when they'd been designed to work in task forces, so the shipyard came up with the Prometheus. Since it was a design that amounted to three ships taped together as a package deal, UP's idea was that this would FORCE Starfleet to operate in groups.
I play a lot of the FASA Star Trek game. It was really nice to see the D7 stat blocks being used.
I know each if those variant ships very well.
To give some context: the Constitution used has:
°6 phasers doing 5 damage (bonus of +3/+2/+1 by range) 2 port-fwd, 2 fwd, 2 starboard-fwd. Chart W (higher letter = better)
°2 photons. 16 damage, chart R. Both fwd.
°Constitution has 16 point shields at a power efficiency of 1:3 (D7 has 12 points at 1:2)
To muddy the D7 waters a bit further, the Romulans also had Klingon design battle cruisers in "The Enterprise Incident." These ships appeared to be D7 class, but were shown firing torpedoes in the remastered version of the episode. Assuming these were D7s also, they could have been refit to carry torpedoes and cloaks or scratch built by the Romulans with their own modifications to the original design.
In the FASA game I try to keep the D-7M on the flanks of the Connie. It keeps the D-7M out of the Connie's photon arc and in the arc of only one of the phaser banks, but even that one phaser bank at full power can still crush a shield. The D-7M needs to keep speed high and stay out of that nasty forward arc the Connie has. Centerline aft of the Connie is a good place for the D-7M to hide as there is nothing that can bear that way. The D-7M's torp is a great weapon, but I have to say that I have problems hitting with it. The hit chart for it is not as good as the Federation's weapons. And keeping high speed often precludes charging the disruptors sufficiently.
I luv this tactical battle break downs. Exciting story, spectacular visuals, awesome video. Great job, well done 👏
Very cool. Great video, space friend.
The Term D7 I always felt was better suited as a Federation identification system. Perhaps identifying based off a warp signature. This would work Like how NATO identified Soviet aircraft. K’Tinga being the actual Klingon class.
Pretty much how I envisioned it. Still a tough fight. Luckily the Amar had an experienced(and ruthless) captain who took the time to study his prey rather than charge thoughtlessly in to finish a wounded, but still very dangerous, quarry. Motivating his men to quickly complete repairs also helped!
Great job using the USS HOOD! Great to see other ships showcased in the fleet!
Great video! But as far as the first question in the video about if the K’Tinga Refit could take on the original series Enterprise: I think it would be fair and accurate to say that the K’Tinga would indeed trounce the TOS Enterprise without much trouble.
You have to remember, in Star Trek VI: A K’Tinga when suffered minor damage was considered a threat to a refitted Constitution Class: The Enterprise-A, so much so that Chekov was practically very frightened about putting their shields up in time before the K’Tinga attacked them; which tells me that the K’Tinga was a very powerful threat to The Enterprise-A even.
My go to for any details from this era are my old FASA RPG books. Paramount may have no idea how to do continuity but FASA did.
Canon can always change. I'll go with the aft torpedos. The Reliant had aft torpedos so perhaps the Connstittuon had them as well. In Errand of Mercy, the Enterprise seemed to be equipped with 'automatic deflector screens'. This could have proved useful against a cloaked ship since they would have been activated the instant a ship decloaked. Obviously, this was never developed in the series. Also, it's double about time the Federation equipped their ships with phase/cloaking devices. To hell with the Treaty of Algeron!
The fact that you chosed Hood to be the "victim" is kind of interesting, since the Hood on the history was tragedy sunk by far more advanced battleship as a battlecruiser, and now she's sinking by a far more advanced battlecruiser.
Thank you Charlie Brown and Delores. Rest in peace. Also thank you to Hanz Stigler who was a great man who did the right thing while doing his duty. Rest in peace as well. And all of Hanz’s family who are now resting.
Nicely done as always. Keep up the good work.
We are ENTERTAINED......
* And we all thank ye.
It was implied in Elaan of Troyius that the D7 had some kind of cloaking tech that allowed them to appear as a sensor ghost to the enterprise. While not explicitly stated this would make sense as that is how the romulan ship looked in balance of terror and we know the Klingons and romulans had exchanged tech by then.
A very early draft of Star Trek 3 had the Romulans as the main antagonist. The bird of prey’s Romulan livery and its cloaking device carried over to a subsequent draft where the Klingons were written in as the villains. I think evidence of this exists in the bird of prey’s torpedoes more closely resembling an energy weapon than movie PTs.
Kruge could’ve been commissioned by his house as a privateer in a stolen Romulan bird of prey. That would’ve fleshed out a compelling backstory.
Minus points for using STD Constitution model.
You really buffed the hell out of the Klingons here to give them the win. So many advances in such a short period don’t really seem feasible. But I enjoyed it all the same!
GREAT VID!!! Wouldn't it be standard Federation procedure to launch a "log buoy" (equivalent of a airplane's BLACK BOX) once the Captain of the Hood saw that they were about to lose the engagement with the K'tinga (see original series episode: "Balance of Terror"(?))? I'd suspect that the Federation would know EXACTLY what happened AND who was responsible! War would most likely be inevitable.
Brinksmanship is a dangerous game.
@@xeltanni8999 Can't argue with that!
Could also say that the Defiant in "A Mirror Darkly" could also be a test bed for the aft launchers seen, or a one off variant
"...and whennthe fight was over, the mighty Hood went down!!"
Wait a minute. Lt. Uhura announced Klingon battlecruiser off the port bow in Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country. The fact that it just appeared out of nowhere implies that it was cloaked before.
thanks for the video.
well done!
I think at this point, the Conti's were showing their age too!
In my head canon D7 was always a K‘tinga. D7 is just the Federation Codename for it. Just like the Soviet Akula (shark) class Submarine is called a Typhoon class in NATO. During TOS it just wasn‘t common to talk about them in their Klingon Name
As others have said, it most likely had AFT Torpedoes. A Torpedo hole in TOS era isn't exactly known for it's wide girth, they're very small.
However I doubt any aft torpedo launcher would had done the Hood any favors in this scenario. It could had fired torpedoes set to proximity, or could had fired phaser blasts like the Enterprise did against the Romulan, but all it did was to slowly turn a bit, enhance it's weakened shields and go pewpew into the dark. But my negative criticism aside, this isn't too unlike Starfleet Command, and I love the animations ^^
On the TOS Constitution and the refit TMP constitution class we can see the phaser mounts are in the saucer section we never see any phaser bank mounts after or ventral secondary hull not in the refit ether. We only see after and ventral secondary hull phasers once the Galaxy class comes along.
Great video.
Like how you use the FASA Trek info.
FASA Rules!
intresting idea having the K'tinga preceed the connie refit. personally i always saw it as being parallel especially since the D7 was a more recent design.
If we accept the idea that the Klingon Empire collapsed into a "warring states" period (as seen in DSC S1) due to the Augment Virus's effects, it's possible that the D7 was started in the 2150s, but only finished in the 2250s. Possibly with some issues due to institutional knowledge being lost over the decades. By the late 2260s or early 2270s, they recovered that institutional knowledge along with making a number of advances, and then "fixed" the D7, resulting in the K'tinga (which presumably was an early ship under a new class designation system).
Alternately, it was a rushed design created in the 2250s based on the D4 and suffered issues as a result (also possibly in addition to or due to lost institutional knowledge as with the other idea). They spent D8-D12 modernizing the other parts of their fleet (and adding a wonky cloak to the BoP) over the next decade or so, then more confidently revisited the D7 to fix it, getting the K'tinga (under a new class designation system).
Both are plausible, at least.
Considering the influence of submarine warfare on Star Trek and the inherent similarities between submarine combat and space combat after all "Balance of Terror" is very much a retelling of "The Cruel Sea" I think that Aft Torpedos would almost certainly be present on a Constitution-class vessel. I cannot think of a single class of Submarine ever launched that only had forward Torpedos. Even if wildly inaccurate they have an intrinsic deterrence value. Fighting in space just like submarine warfare is a 3D environment and thus both forward and rear firing Torpedos are essential.
It would make sense that the Klingons would upgrade an existing ship to a new class, the Russians probably took a lot of their older T-64 and T-72 tanks and modified/upgraded them to T-80 and T-90 specs. Even in WW2, Russia probably took existing T-34/76 hulls, but refit them with the better 85mm armed turret. Considering how long it takes to build a ship from scratch, an upgrade program and modular design capable of further development would seem logical.
It's a bit of a stretch and arguably just isn't what's on screen, but one might imagine that what we see in ENT: In a Mirror Darkly are torpedoes set for indirect fire -- soft-launched from the forward launchers, drifting sideways and angled aft, before the torpedo lights up and starts propelling on its own. I like the idea that having aft launchers is a tactical advantage, but being guided weapons, photon torpedoes don't have the same arc limitations as phaser or disruptor hardpoints.
Cool video.
The subtitles for the remastered version of Errand of Mercy calls out “magnetic mines” when they were fired upon in the teaser.
Definitely not disruptors if that’s the case.
according to the tech manual of TOS era the D6 and D7 only difference was the D7 had a pair of phasers on the wings and both had drones or thermal nuclear missiles as well to fire they were mainly used against the Kxinti the Klingon D7 and D6 have phasers Disruptors and Drones or missilles
Great video.
I can't recall much Klingon vs Romulan content... how would that go?
Granted you confined the parameters up to Star Trek III: TSFS.
Minor retcon introduced in DS9 'Once More unto the Breach.' (21m48s - 22m56s) Kor talked about the battle of Caleb IV and that days before the battle, after leaving Qo'nos, onboard his D-5, he was taking apart and reassembling the cloaking device, which as he said, 'was a new piece of technology.'
Yeah, the D-5 was verbally confirmed to have used the cloak and not the D-7/K'tinga, but it is information that I felt was not acknowledged in your parameters.
I remember reading the Novel of Star Trek The Motion Picture by Gene Roddenberry years ago and in it Kirk has a receiver in his brain which allows Star Fleet Command to send out visual messages to him, this is how he learns of the Klingon ships destruction at the hands of Vejer.
at that moment he recalls
" The Klingon vessels were big, dangerous looking undoubtedly their new K`t`inga class heavy cruisers which some Admiralty tacticians feared might prove faster and more powerful than Starfleet's first line Constitution class ships "
This line puzzled me back in 1979 and now to be honest , is he taking about the re- fitted constitution or the the pre re -fit ?
Awesome tactical video , more please,
I love your story and like your idea
Considering that Klingon ships are specifically designed for warfare, _and_ the K'tinga was specifically designed to defeat the older Constitution class, which outclassed the D-7, the K'tinga should win hands down simply due to the faster, more powerful photon torpedoes, the increase in disruptor banks and military tactics.
A good Klingon captain would tilt their ship to bear as many weapons as possible, concentrate on one point to pop a hole in the shields and obliterate the ship contained within. The rear torpedo alone would serve as a "Coup de grace"/finishing blow, as a K'tinga could run full speed, firing everything at one point, only to drop a rear torpedo right into that hole as soon as they passed, allowing them to continue at full speed (even warp away) as their enemy exploded into an anti-matter fireball.
I would imagine that the refit Constitution had the more powerful torpedo banks and increase in phaser arrays due to the K'tinga production (which fits with the allegory for the US/Russia = Federation/Klingon, as it is in line with The Cold War and the ever increasing competition for military advantage).
You are thinking too 2 dimensionally for these challenges.
1:09 one must consider that the K'tinga is not a "one to one" modification of the D-7... it is _much_ larger due to the size of the windows, especially the shuttle bay observatory. If it is comparable to the one on the refit Constitution, the K'tinga would be larger than the Enterprise., at least geometrically. I think it would be akin to the Romulan Warbirds of TNG, which were spread out to make the ship look as large and imposing as possible.
I would love to see a video comparing a K'tinga to the Enterprise using those shuttle hanger observatories as size indicators.
2:40 keep in mind that the K'tinga warp engines are completely vertical and do not have an inverted angle like the D-7, per 1:46
4:50 keep in mind that in the episode *A Mirror Darkly,* you are talking about a modified Defiant in an evil Federation, which may have had more militaristic Constitution classes, including more phaser banks and rear photon bays. PS: a "phaser" is a "phased laser array", able to fire a laser in multiple wavelengths of energy (which is why phasers can stun entire cities or obliterate them). They are not disruptors, plasma or particle projection cannons.
5:30 the original TOS Enterprise only had 3 phaser banks: 2 on the port and starboard sides of the upper saucer section, and one facing forward on the lower saucer section. The TOS always had the photons shooting out of the lower saucer sensor array (?) instead of the command pod right below the bridge, where they are located.
5:55 due to the K'tinga having a dedicated photon torpedo generator in the command pod (as opposed to actual torpedoes like the Enterprise), it could fire at least 6 in a volley, as what we see in *TMP* was an edited version of the original scene. You can see clips of the original scene on TH-cam, where you see the K'tinga fire *six* torpedoes in rapid succession.
Considering the nature of how the "photon torpedoes" are created and fired, I would think that they are more akin to plasma torpedoes than photon torpedoes.
8:10 how would the Hood raise it's shields in time? They had no idea they were going to be attacked.. and how did the Klingons miss at that close range? The commander could have fired a barrage of 3 torpedoes to pummel the shields (which should have been up already at least at 50%, due to a Yellow Alert) with a disruptor barrage into the shield hole. If the shields were down, the Hood would be dead. There would be no time for a reaction that quick, and the Federation did not have computer controlled/reaction based shielding.
9:25 I guess you never had a good player going against you with the FASA game. A good commander would have just floated in front of the Hood, facing them from below. Target the main deflector dish and neck, invert the K'tinga to show your belly to the belly of the Hood, opening your 4 disruptors (the 2 on the command pod and the 2 on the front lower main body) and front torpedo to the bottom of the Hood (which would not have the *TMP* phaser bank on the bottom). Fire all weapons while bursting into full speed, move at a 45 degree angle in front and upwards, crossing the saucer dish. As you rake across their belly and the lower saucer, as you pass above the saucer you fire your rear disruptors located on either side of the shuttle bay to open a hole in the front shields and drop a 3 torpedo barrage through the hole and right into the bridge. The Hood wouldn't have the chance for a torpedo lock and would be dead in less than 10 seconds.
10:20 if the Hood was that damaged in the front, a good commander would have closed the distance and finished the Hood off, by either firing another torpedo barrage into Hood's face, or he would spin the ship around, allow the Hood to close in and drop a barrage of rear torpedoes. Either way, a good Klingon commander would NEVER give up an advantage like that. If anything, a good commander would park their ship directly below and behind the Hood out of their firing line.
Yeah...
I don't agree with the outcome...
1. The D7M was the upgrade to make a KTingga.
It had 2 torp forward and 1 aft and a cloaking. Also had engines nearly twice as strong as the original D7
2. Klingon torps were only half the strength of Federation torps. This was so they could fire more rapid, getting more fired out then other ships.
3. Klingon disrupters were EXTREMELY week and extremely short ranged. The trade off was weight, more could be added compared to phasers and were more devastating again the actual hull then phasers.
4. Klingon shields were actually half as strong as federations but their hulls were stronger and the panels were actually armor, not just decorations
I recall a d7 in ds9 . The episode were worf is courtmartialed. ( convoy mission)
Small headcanon idea I have between the different names "D-7" versus "K'tinga": What if the term "D-7" was essentially the *Federation's* name for the Cruisers, in a parallel to the Cold War (and modern day) where NATO will give ships and aircraft of non-NATO members their own names for them for easy reference (For example, the Akula-Class Ballistic Missile Submarine, versus its NATO Name "Typhoon-Class"), with the name "K'tinga" being the specific Class Name for the ships used by the Klingons themselves. "D" would therefore indicate that the Federation thought of these ships as Destroyers, rather than Battlecruisers as the Klingons might've seen them as, with the number 7 perhaps indicating the Model or Hull-Form (i.e. the 7th recorded Hull Design for Klingon ships the Federation has observed). This would go a long way to explain why in TOS the D-7's were inferior to the Constitution-Class, while the revised K'tinga Class Battlecruisers are a large improvement.
Very well done.
From one Blender user to another, I'm wondering:
How did you create the pulse disruptors and photon torpedo effects?
Currently I'm experimenting with simulation nodes to create the pulse/burst weapon effect but the results haven't been satisfactory yet.
The duisruptors are a particle emitter - you can see me messing around with them a little in the last live stream - I was able to resolve my targeting issue i was wrestling with on there. The photons are all geometry, various planes with shaders.
@@resurrectedstarships
Awesome.
Thank you very much. 🙂
This is a completely believable scenario for me, if say 5 to 10 K'tinga class battlecruisers were complete and deployed before USS. Enterprise completed her refit it would make sense that the Klingons would want to test her against the previous generation of Constitution class ships.
I can't see any example of The Enterprise firing from anywhere other than under the saucer until TO remastered changed that.
I don't recall if dialogue ever cleared up if the ship originally had anything other than forward facing weapons.
I would headcanon that the ship did have only forward firing weapons (the Defiant could have added rear torpedoes as a mid-production run upgrade though) to compensate for this the ship could move in any direction at warp including backwards and sideways and use it's warp engines at low power for sub-light medium maneuvers too.
Later ships were shown to only move on one axis at warp speed, they certainly couldn't fly backwards at warp speed, and warp drive was never used for less than "C" travel. as a consequence more turret coverage was added.
One can speculate this is also a consequence of the jump in top speeds at warp slowly phasing up sub-light warp engine use. (except as a power source for weapons and shields).
So yeah doing it now you'd put turrets on the Enterprise, but back then they didn't seem too. & TOS remastered is a retcon to "canon". which might not even be a huge issue considering how messed up the timeline is.
I would say the D-7's "Originally" had a deflector where there was a Torpedo launcher on the K'tinga. also retconned away. though some say the Launcher door is also a dish, which isn't impossible as the dish itself doesn't have to be huge. & the systems for it don't have to be mounted directly behind it either. Alternatively one can say the leading edges of the D-7's wings are interstellar debris control and the dish is just a com array dish & main forward sensor (useful while cloaked).
Later d-7's likely had cloaks installed.
Some have suggested that the main difference is the D7's have wing cannons directly fed from the nacelles and the K'tinga has inline canons powered by warp power and the fusion reactors. So loss of the warp drive on a D-7 would take out the wing guns functions too. or at least reduce their operations effectiveness if powered by auxiliary lines from the fusion power.
The K'Tinga adds a rear facing Torpedo launcher and the D-7 is also a bit wider than a K'Tinga The feather patterns on the armour maybe related to the cloak but all just literally bolted on armour too. D-7's might be quite thin-skinned as a consequence compared to a K'Tinga.
Over all I don't think there is a huge difference and one can see the Deepspace Nine version of the D7 as a partial refit too perhaps much like the Defiant may have added Dorsal Phasers and rear Firing Torpedoes to the Constitution Class template.
Think of it like the different kind of Spitfire's in World war II they are all still Spitfires but a Mark 1 is very different to a Mark IV even though they were all made in the same half-decade period. I would expect after initial production run of just over a dozen Constitutions they would start to look a bit more like the Phase II Enterprise and would be part of the way to being refit on the fly. then they'd stop production and tweaking in favor of the Enterprise II Type with a higher top speed and more weapons coverage and a larger cargo bay. But they didn't make very many Enterprise II types either it seems as brand New Hulls.
It remains an oddity that there is so few of them including an variants where as they spammed the heck out of Miranda Class ships for more than a Century.
I really don't like the fact that they turned the dish on the D7 into a torpedo tube. Firstly, I liked the old D7 having reasonable technical parts, just like the dish on the Constitution class. Secondly, the hole on the K'tinga is much to big for a regular torpedo. It goes through several decks!
Hood is _not_ a lucky name! Fortunate does not favour it.
Anyway, we all know a convenient temporal disruption would occur due to the intense gravity of the Neutron star just before the finishing shot. It would allow Enterprise D or E to fall through just in time to hole the K'Tinga through its fully reinforced #1 shield without noticing, before Picard passes on some morally superior advice to the Hood's captain from the 24th century. Data and Geordie rig the navigational deflector to interact with the neutron star, the instability reopens and they zip home precisely at the 39th minute!
Great video now given the the abilities and tactics of this K'Tinga I have to ask who is the commeof this fine vessel Kor, Koloth, or dare I say Kang.
Personally, I'm fine with the Defiant being some kind of combat-oriented variant or refit of the Constitution class compared to the Enterprise, which was more exploratory.
If the klingon commander would decide to decloak or even be detected in front of the constitution he would most probably be smacked with the full barrage from the front of the federation ship which without shields would do more damage than shown in my opinion, most of the firepower of the constitution seems to be aimed at the front. Again my opinion.
Interesting fight. Poor Hood. : (
Really depends on the captain of the ship, but I would tend to believe that the Hoods long range sensors would have picked up the two destroyed supply ships and would have gone to red alert raising shields before they were ever in range of the Klingons. You mentioned that the Klingons were more maneuverable than the Hood, but again I disagree, in the Motion Picture when running from Vger they seemed rather static in nature doing nothing to try to avoid the Vger torpedo and only fire upon it.
I never liked the thought of the Klingons having cloaking technology. They would never hide like cowards during a battle. No honor in it.
I have never understood why the Klingons even use cloaking devices? It would seem so against their character to hide and ambush? I have always felt that it would seem dishonorable to them to fight this way. That being said, the Captain of the U.S.S. Hood should have raised shields the moment they first detected the debris.
I'm thinking in Star Trek Enterprise, through a mirror, dorkly...either the constitution class "Defiant" that the Tholians had captured was possibly equipped slightly differently than NCC-1701, and maybe had aft torpedoes, or the Tholians had already found time to upgrade it slightly. Ofc, it was just writers adding to or ignoring canon.
A TMP era K'tinga class would have likely been equiped with a cloak, since the Romulans had already used them 15 years earlier in the D7 ship it was based off... not going canon here, but onscreen canon really has no place in the Star Trek universe anyways, as so much more has to be going on than what is Ever shown.
The battle maneuvers used by either side pretty well check out, without any bias in place solely for the sake of plot.
Finally...The Hood didn't have any real plot armor...and that name is a cursed ship name anyhow in naval history. So ofc it lost! 🤣
(I'd probably launch a bunch of shuttles with redshirt pilots, and use them as shields against the torpedoes, but that's why I got kicked out of Starfleet)😂🤣💀
Agreed. You won't get any argument from me regarding In A Mirror Darkly. There were all kinds of canon eff-ups. You acknowledged the ones more relevant to your video, but there was also the Defiant having a unique insignia, which is in direct contradiction to what we see in TOS. It was an exciting episode, but frustrating at the same time. The whole "every ship has its own insignia" thing has to stop. It makes no sense, and it doesn't fit with TOS canon, nor current/evolving canon.
Absolutely wonderful!!! Rodenberry would have been in Heaven if he had this technology. 👏👏👏👏👏
In tos , a klingon d7 has a cloak they are testing. After the romulan alliance. It malfunctions and kirk destroyed her .
Nice
Just ignore discovery, enterprise, and Strange new worlds and no issues would arise from actual Star Trek fans/ship nerds. ;)
All jokes aside i really liked this battle break down and makes a lot of senses.
Eh just because we didn't see the Enterprise fire aft torpedoes in TOS doesn't mean it couldn't fire them, there could very well be another torpedo launcher somewhere near engineering we just didn't see it thanks to the limited details of the model.
I mean even the Connie 2 lacked visible aft torpedo launchers but one can still guess it had them to protect the ship more.
I mean when exactly is the forward Torpedo launcher on that thing?
@@Hartzilla2007 On trhe TOS enterprise? We normally saw it launch from the same spot as the phasers, under the saucer. Perhaps the Connie I just had tiny torpedo bays.
Sweet
I seem to remember them being D9 class
In "Subspace Rhapsody", they call the D-7 platform a K'tinga, so this could be considered a canon battle
The Klingons would probably call the Discovery Enterprise a Constitution II, even though those didn't exist yet. SNW just isn't that lore accurate, especially with the Gorn.
Kirk encountered the Gorn for the first time, and after limited hostilities the Gorn and Federation made an alliance/ceasefire, ending their short conflict. SNW has completed retconned the Gorn, changing the whole species, and also retconned the previously established lore surrounding them.
Methinks D-7 might just be the Federations generalized name for them, I mean it would make sense as Klingon names could be hard for some to pronounce.
@@Gaelic-Spirit I dont think you are correct about kirk. they KNEW about the gorn and that the colony was attacked by gorn. they knew their weapons,... only he never MET a gorn before from what I understood. but the federation already had some contact with them before
How dare you refer to said ‘Subspace Rhapsody’ with respect to anything cannon sir. For shame sir, for shame!
@@miamijules2149 Its cannon dude, same goes with our man Bashir and a fistful of datas.