As someone who used to install police radar, LIDAR, MIRT, and LPR systems (among other things), I can tell you that they're amazingly easy to manipulate, and super vulnerable to all sorts of exploitation. This talk was hilarious, and just confirmation of a lot of stuff I learned working in a cop shop for 3 years.
@@observe_and_purport I'm not sure I'd have the CV or credentials to be considered an expert witness, but if a defense attorney is desperate enough, I could easily get manufacturer documentation and speak authoritatively enough to try and appear credible. Them the prosecutor would likely cross-examine me and tear me to shreds. ;P
@@factorone out of interest if you were to exploit or manipulate these devices, would this throw a red flag up that people can see? Aka either manually operated speed guns or the ones they leave parked on the side of the road. I haven't watched the whole video yet so it may be answered.
@@asdfssdfghgdfy5940 The speed signs aren't usually for enforcement so much as for a cheap deterrent (which is arguably enforcement, but whatever, semantics and stuff), but those are easily manipulated if not secured. As for actual radar and LIDAR guns, the average lay person isn't gonna know what to look for when there's an exploit or manipulation of the devices going on unless they know what to look for up front, but a few minutes of messing around for interested parties is usually all it takes to figure out how they work. They're pretty rudimentary devices.
Has been for 40+ years. Used to drive 95 and it was the only state to worry about out of 7-8 states - and traffic was always terrible in that state compared to the rest.
I drive all over the country, and the Southeastern states are the worst of all about highway robbery. There are some states where you'll hardly ever see a cop, but from Virginia all the way down to Texas, it's nothing but speed traps.
I heard of rumors Virginia police even consider Waze app a radar detector and wrote tickets for people using it as it alerts to their speed traps. I live in FL it is amazing how many people you see with Virginia tags doing the speed limit on the interstate either left or middle Lane while everyone else is swerving around the person from Virginia. The best part when police officer going with the flow of traffic 15+ over "blow" their doors off along with everyone else. I been through Virginia it's just a big speed trap it's not about safety.
I'd imagine if a self-driving car were to use solely a LIDAR sensor system to navigate, yes. But most automakers are considering a multiple-redundancy type system anyway. e.g., the LIDAR sensors need to agree with the sonar which needs to agree with the optical, etc.
@@johnhoo6707 Only if it was well designed. And if we're not lucky, companies are going to cut corners. Just look at all the problems with autopilot in Teslas. (Musk is more of a Thomas Edison type, stealing inventions and pretending to be a great visionary, when in reality he's just a rich investor.)
I think most self driving cars use Lidar/Ultrasonic sensors, but I've heard a few that use radar as well. Most use multiple types of sensors for redundancy and accuracy tho
Before my radar got stolen, I used to joke that it was an ATM finder, seemed to go off every time i was near an ATM. Didnt realize it was the auto door frequency till now.
What do you mean by 'got stolen' ? You obviously have no idea what GOT means. You are not fluent in the English language. read more books to educate yourself, if that is even possible to teach the unteachable.
Speed detection devices have digital signal processors. God tier hack sends back a set of encoded commands that compromise the devices. They have a speaker for beeping, so maybe have it play careless whisper
In the UK a guy did it with a 3rd party reverse sensor kit, modded signal blocks out radar, took to court and the guy lost. Police recognised the car after a while and clicked something was up putting an error on the screen every time it drive past.
For laser, wouldn't a relatively high power LED array with a pseudo random generator producing high levels of white noise bury the signal. It would be like trying to listen to you clapping hands outside the airport terminal from across the street and listening for the echo while a jet is taking off. With daytime running lights, this would mask the fact there is a perimeter of bright IR LEDs by the headlights. A passive Doppler speed radar is a radar horn with a tuned stub in the feedhorn that is tuned into and out of resonance with a varactor which modulates the radar signal return. This is not a transmitter, but a tuned retro reflector with a modulator. A variation I have seen had the antenna and feedhorn modified from a C band dish with the antenna polarization motorized by a small high speed motor. This works on the X band. Goal is to set the speed to display triple digits in a car that is not going anywhere that fast. Works well to wake up the officer behind the billboard reading a paper waiting for the money bell to go off. Never run it without being in a stream of traffic. Makes identification of the signal very difficult. Passive detectors will not see it as it is not a transmitter. It is tuned so it's retro reflection is much stronger than headlights. Selectively and rapidly changing polarization modulated the polarized radar signal 100%. Used to play with this in the late 1970's before it was illegal. Cruise control is very effective in highly enforced zones using excessive enforcement for revenue and is legal.
Just shine a constant 904nm ir array in all directions. If there is no off time there is no longer a pulse and therefore no way to measure. LEDs last 50k hours so who cares about it being on 100% of the time.
That's how the first gen lidar jammers worked. they were NOT eye safe and apparently you could feel the heat with your hands more than a foot away from the laser diode. Newer lidar guns will detect this type of jamming and alert the operator.
Won't your car light up like christmas on the cop's dashcam though? Camera sensors have a wider range of wavelengths they display as visible light, hence the clever "anti-paparazzi lights" or now "anti-facial-recognition" lights.
@@CamStLouis Cameras have a limited range of shutter speed. The lights that are modulated are outside the flicker detection of the imaging camera sensors. The "Christmas light" display is masked as part of the normal headlights, tail lights, plate lights of the car. The reflectors on the car modulate the reflected laser with high level noise. Yes, your light on the subject is masked by the light produced by the subject. Laser has filters to select it's wavelength and ignore outside wavelengths. We just happen to prefer to emit additional light in that band that is high in noise level near the pulse timing of the laser.
@@isettech To clarify, I'm referring not to the effectiveness of the jamming but the likelihood of detection. Let's say it's a bright sunny day, the cop has headlights off and since light is coming from everywhere the retroreflective beads on the license plate are not making it look illuminated. Wouldn't the IR emission be visible on the cop's dashcam like a TV remote control shows up on a home camera? Or is it far enough into the infrared spectrum that it doesn't appear?
the really interesting thing is the legality of intentionally reducing the radar cross section of your car. it may or may not be illegal to skin your car such that it has little or no radar cross section. most jammer laws focus on the jammer itself, and reducing your cross section is completely passive and requires no jammer at all
I heard of rumors Virginia police even consider Waze app a radar detector and wrote tickets for people using it as it alerts to their speed traps. I live in FL it is amazing how many people you see with Virginia tags doing the speed limit on the interstate either left or middle Lane while everyone else is swerving around the person from Virginia. The best part when police officer going with the flow of traffic 15+ over "blow" their doors off along with everyone else. I been through Virginia it's just a big speed trap.
I’d like to see Ed Bolian, or Arne Toman and Doug Tabbutt give a talk at one of these kinds of conferences about his Cannonball run because they went nuts for countermeasures like this. He has a youtube channel called VINWiki where he’s talked about it if anyone is interested. And actually his record was just broken by another team and they released videos on VINWiki going over the setup they had in their car for police countermeasures. They used laser jammers, thermal scope, brake light kill switch, along with modifying the rear end of the car with vinyl wrap to make it look like a different kind of car from the rear. They made it across the US in 27 hours and 25 minutes with an average speed of over 100mph. That includes fuel stops and everything, and they did it without getting stopped by the police even once, despite going nearly 200mph at some points. They aren’t huge techies or anything, they’re just car guys who like to do crazy shit like drive from coast to coast in a ridiculously low amount of time. I think the hacker community would be able to understand and relate. Ed and his team previously held the record, and Arne and Doug along with their 3rd just broke the record. Both are excellent stories though.
One takeaway I'm getting from this is someone who really wanted to make a laser speed finder robust against attack, really ought to not be using pulses at all, and ought to modulate the laser with spread-spectrum modulation, using a secure random bitstream. Make it more like spread spectrum radar but in the visible band. Of course, that's more expensive to do...
Speeding tickets are for revenue generation, not safety. If the government were seriously concerned about speeding, there are better ways to combat it than giving a tiny fraction of a percent of speeders tickets. So at the end of the day, they can always wait 5 more seconds and pick up the next guy - why spend a bunch of money on a complex solution when a laser with a 555 timer does the job.
You missed one big legal issue. Using a laser may be unregulated, but using it for the express purpose of "interfering with a police officer" can be a felony offense. If the cop knows what jamming looks like, all they have to do is pull you over, observe the jamming gear, and CONFISCATE THE EVIDENCE, which is your car. That's something to at least be aware of.
Ya know, what if we built a system similar to Waze, where we use optical image recognition to detect the location of police vehicles. Or if Waze is up for it, integrate it directly into Waze, essentially automating the reporting of police presence?
Police have already complained about Waze being able to "stalk" them. They asked countless times for Google to remove the police feature and of course Virginia was the biggest one complaining. I think the way Virginia combats it they switch locations on a more frequent basis so it's hard to tell new and old police reports. I used Waze when it first came out in Beta. Google will be releasing on Google map apps they already now have accidents and broken down vehicles. Last I checked police reporting would be added. The police are pissed now since both apps share reports. So now we will have a lot more people using the report police.
eri Waze hasn’t changed since google bought it...google owns waze but all the original staff work there still....also this feature of waze to report police is a good thing as they shouldn’t be sitting in one place for such a long time
@@dco5055 Crowd reporting Police traps is implemented in Google Maps for Android now and functions the same as Waze. Police should feel slighted: it's shady business when they're fund-raising.
It'd be really crazy if cops encrypted their radios, which are only allowed to broadcast specific frequencies, constantly transmitting a handy public key to uniquely identify themselves... Wait.
I just drove to a police speed camera van like 4 days ago, (yeah they have those here, they can't even be arsed to do their jobs in a country with speed tickets that increase the more one earns), and now i see this. Interesting..
The Criminals in Government have to pay off their Debt + Interest to the International Banker Scammers, as inflation destroys the value, the Po lice [blood sucking insects] and Courts uphold the Bankruptcy of the Country and the Police are there to commit Highway robbery, endorsed and supported by the Courts who play games with the people. That is what Courts are for.
This guy was on crystal meth. He used over a million words to say only three things: I used to jam traffic control lights so I could drive through green lights only. 2. I'm a speed freak and I jam radar when driving. 3. I have a device to jam laser radar.
"RADAR works by measuring the doppler shift of sound waves" *cringes hard in physicist* although then immediately bringing up a diagram from hyperphysics (praise be) does slightly redeem it IMHO
Cut people with a knife in a specific room: legal Cut other objects in that room with a knife: illegal Things have got to change! People who vote for the R-word use this exact logic.
@@Baychimo but theres no difference between flashing a light at a device meant for flashing light at and flashing a light at a device meant for flashing light at
@@thatjokerperson7062 I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at, since you switched A to B, but of course there can be a lot of differences. Opening a lock with a key and opening another lock with a key can produce very different results, right? The action itself can produce varied results.
@@thatjokerperson7062 Is it the correct key? Is the mechanism same? Am I allowed to open the lock? If I'm allowed, am I supposed to open it? Am I allowed to have the key? If I'm allowed, am I supposed to use the key? What can opening the lock impact? etc etc. Should be pretty easy for anyone to understand.
I’m a retired firefighter. The small town I used to work in the police radar will actually pick up the radiator fan speed in the patrol car. They would have to distinguish between the car speeding or the radiator fan.
"Chakotay informs her that the missile was programmed to adapt to all known weapon types, including Starfleet's, but Janeway is optimistic that Voyager's type 6 photon torpedos, which weren't in service yet when Dreadnought was launched, might just get through."
Also, at least in most of Europe, there are unmarked police vehicles out and about. They use neither radar or lidar. They simply have a dash cam and they drive at the legal speed limit (+buffer speed) and anyone passing them is deemed speeding and recorded doing so. The police vehicles speed is of course part of the video feed.
That's when you attach a gamma ray emitter to the back windshield of your car and fry their electronics (and everyone behind you, but it still does the trick!)
It wasn't really technical - he didn't even cover basic concepts like the cosine effect. The most technical aspect of the whole first half of the talk was "here's the frequencies that confuse the most common radars, btw don't use them!" I was expecting something a little deeper than basically explaining what a commercially available laser jammer does, especially after talking a big game about how he could get arrested... come on, lmao Not to mention the talk is factually inaccurate at some points - he didn't consider the Doppler shift of blasting those frequencies from a moving car as opposed to a stationary one, and Ka band is easily more popular than K these days. Though maybe not out in the sticks outside KC...
In the USA, Ka band is the band most used by police at around 34.7 MHz and Kustom signals xmits at around 35.5 MHz and are all digital Guns now. Good luck being able to jam all band of radar..
@ BS! I'm a retired, radar certified instructor and retired traffic cop. If you don't believe me, call Kustom Signals or any major radar company and they'll tell you I'm right. Or just ask Vortex. It's definitely megahertz and not gigahertz. Custom signals is 34.7 MHz. Do any of you even own a Radar module or gun? I own multiple ones from multiple companies. All you have to do is look at a tuning fork and it'll tell you the frequency. Do you even know what a tuning fork is? Lmao!
29:32 A couple years back I was driving down a main road in town at night and I noticed a green laser dot hit my windshield for a moment. I looked in that direction and sure enough, there was a cop clocking people. This slide says they only use one wavelength, and it's invisible, so maybe that was an aiming laser for a regular radar gun.
I'm surprised they don't use pulse encoding techniques. Also, what would happen if just a continuous pulse train of RF/laser was sent back to the detector - i assume this would reduce the signal-to-noise ratio below the threshold required to pick out the reflected pulse?
Well the laser is weak so encoding a signal a dirty headlight could make it lose "packets". The jammers could mimic the encode signal as it stays the same when it gets reflected back. Kinda like the pulse length it can be detected and replicated already.
Question... wouldn't just responding with a continuous beam for the laser overpower even the devices that employ countermeasures? or can they still detect the slight amplitude changes?
I don't know how but I swear to God my radar/laser detector saved me when I got the laser indicator and I hit the brakes and pulled into the right lane and the guy following me got the ticket.
19:20 - ish.. is the device passive, blindly sending a fixed frequency? If yes, have the radar gun makers started coming out with devices that randomly hop frequencies to counter this? Or maybe they don't see this as a widespread enough issue (yet?) to give any serious attention to. Edit: 25:15 is surely why this wont' become a widespread practice!
And i imagine in the future when we have another million tiny satellites out there in orbit, they will all identify and record moving vehicles and their speeds in real time. Once it detects that a vehicle was speeding it will record that instance and dispatch a police vehicle to intercept that vehicle and give it a speeding ticket. Good luck defeating that!
The upshot to this is that you now have perfectly accurate GPS as it actually tracks you visually rather than by triangulation. Heck, imagine in the future with the boost in processing power etc you get a live feed from above of your vehicle. One satellite could track several thousand vehicles at the same time if not more and stream their video feeds down to the surface.
@@Coladudetje That sounds horrible honestly. 1) It could be disabled/tampered with because the car owner has direct access to the hardware. 2) EU privacy laws (assuming it doesn't go full North Korea on us) would probably prohibit it. Having satellites watching you means you eliminate both concerns because... 1) Much harder to tamper with, requires an exploit on the backend. 2) Space isn't governed in this manner. Meaning it won't be a privacy issue. (Yes, laws are strange)
I did place anpr camera's and theres no privacy if you pick you nose we see it in all trucks theres is obu they pay also per mile or km here if you put you device off we pick the signal up and the ticket is 1600 euro's its sometimes hard to find a job... I quit cuz people attack you alle day and i understand that.
Our country belgium does break alot laws. Double taxation on alot of things. And if people strike or get mad they put you in mental institute like they do in china.. Alot of Chinese come here and we must teach Them how our factories run and then 3 compagnies already moved tot china as well... We become chinese slaves and eu pay Every city to keep refugees here while cities maling debt its all lost here...
im a young teenager that wants to pursue the career of a hacker and coder, I have dreamed about going to defcon because i cannot find and other people like me where i live. its a massive bummer that defcons age minimum is but i am working on a hack called hack X and im excited to show it to def con when im older
bills error, explained. Radar doesnt 'reflect' back from trees, it is mainly absorbed by them. dry/dead trees are somewhat invisable to radar. wet trees absorb.
its one thing living in a society with laws, but when laws are created to oppress us, keep us under check , make sure we,re not having to much fun. Thats when things change.....big time
Virginia is where all the people who designed these systems live and work. They’ve been beating this shit for 40 years, and if you’ve ever driven the beltway you know it’s white-knuckle even at the limit (which you never reach). Hence, speed detectors have been illegal in VA for as long as I can remember.
I was thinking along these lines a few years ago but didnt think it would be this easy. I thought the laser had a higher ID frequency like military lasers do as a way to get through jamming attempts.
I got hit with my first military laser in 1999 or 2000 on the local AFB when I was delivering pizza. First and only time it ever went off for laser. Yes it was the military police about 1/4 mile behind me. It wasnt long after that when the US military clamped down on who was allowed on military bases because of 9/11. Luckily we have a lot of military people who deliver pizza, or we did back then, so they were the ones who always went on base to deliver after that.
They're not using a laser to generate the fake return signal, they're using infra-red LEDs, because the amount of light that makes it back to the gun is so small that LEDs do the job just fine and don't need to be aimed, they just "flood" the area with the (very faint) fake return signal.
Wouldn't you have to modulate the signal you're transmitting based on your actual speed? You're still going to produce Doppler shift even if you're transmitting instead of just reflecting. Seems the way it's set up will give you a constant proportion to your actual speed instead of a constant speed. I'm only 24 minutes in so my apologies if you cover that in the back half of the talk.
Sounds about right. I'm not sure if he left that out on purpose or didn't consider it, but you can definitely not send an "always 65mph" signal without being aware of and taking into account your actual speed.
This demo does not work. If the hammer is transmitting at the police frequency, but is moving, you still get Doppler. You just show up at half the speed you should. In some circumstances that might be enough
What i dont get, though, is arent the cops just gonna go "ok he's clearly going faster than 65" or "i just got an error message" and pull you over anyway? So isn't it only effective if youre also willing to have a high speed chase and win?
When we were kids , we would take all the powder out of fire works and mix them. All together in one big firework and the goal was to make the homemade fire work so bright the street light would turn off. Hecknyea it worked. Alot 😅
Is it illegal to drive a stealth fighter down the road too? Because what makes them work is the angles they present to any incoming radar wave which scatters them all over and also a special paint that absorbs radar signals. In other words, just make your car into a stealth fighter changing the body shape and painting it in radar absorbing paint. (The paint is basically a layer of rubber BTW) You can of course incorporate laser absorption into this too. First off, the angles will make it nearly impossible to find a target to aim for. Secondly, the paint will eat the 904 NM wavelength anyways. The only problem with this is, it might be illegal to use these countermeasures... For example, some European countries i know of makes it illegal to cover your license plates in certain clear lacquer that makes it impossible to photograph them. They are still perfectly visible to the naked eye. Also, some designs makes it so you can't view the license plate from certain angles, like from above, which makes them invisible to automatic toll roads.
yeah ive heard of cases here in the netherlands where people got fined for having that lacquer on their licenxe plates. government was not too happy about that either.
Interesting! But would not the producer use frequency hopping on radars and randomize the laser intervals on the laser-gun? Then only the radar or laser gun would know valid frequency/interval and these countermeasures would not work. Or am i wrong? ps:I will probably not measure the speed of those who speed outside my kids kindergarten but correct them with the fist to face solution (or kick to car).
This whole talk was super light on hacking, illegal stuff, or even true facts honestly. So much stuff he said is just misleadingly simplified or straight up wrong...
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The fact that his "The FCC won't let us speed" line didn't get a laugh is the most illegal part of this talk.
Came here for this. It flew completely under the radar
or let me be me so let me see... they tried to shut me down on MTV, but it feels so empty without me.
I’m glad he didn’t stop for it, walking a fine line between dry and cringe.
Don't get it?
@@turkeyphant he was referencing a line from a pretty well-known song by Eminem.
As someone who used to install police radar, LIDAR, MIRT, and LPR systems (among other things), I can tell you that they're amazingly easy to manipulate, and super vulnerable to all sorts of exploitation. This talk was hilarious, and just confirmation of a lot of stuff I learned working in a cop shop for 3 years.
@@observe_and_purport I'm not sure I'd have the CV or credentials to be considered an expert witness, but if a defense attorney is desperate enough, I could easily get manufacturer documentation and speak authoritatively enough to try and appear credible.
Them the prosecutor would likely cross-examine me and tear me to shreds. ;P
@@factorone out of interest if you were to exploit or manipulate these devices, would this throw a red flag up that people can see? Aka either manually operated speed guns or the ones they leave parked on the side of the road.
I haven't watched the whole video yet so it may be answered.
@@asdfssdfghgdfy5940 The speed signs aren't usually for enforcement so much as for a cheap deterrent (which is arguably enforcement, but whatever, semantics and stuff), but those are easily manipulated if not secured. As for actual radar and LIDAR guns, the average lay person isn't gonna know what to look for when there's an exploit or manipulation of the devices going on unless they know what to look for up front, but a few minutes of messing around for interested parties is usually all it takes to figure out how they work. They're pretty rudimentary devices.
what do MIRT and LPR stand for?
LPR is licence plate recognition and MIRT is Mobile infrared transmitter. The things ambulances etc use to change lights to green.
My cat watched this video and now she's jamming my laser pointer. Has totally ruined my fun. Thanks a lot, Bill.
The temerity of that cat
Funny seeing you here, when are you going to finally give a talk yourself?!
@@lseul8812 he should give one on social engineering.
Hey...you from the original PLA from back in the day (1990's)? Man, those were good times.
Finally my background in radar pays off with me understanding all of the fundamental principles of a single defcon video
My background in bartending had nothing to do with me also understanding all of the fundamental principles of this defcon video.
@@bensons999 congrats kid genius
Background in being a background helped me understand every fundamental background in a single defcon video
Welcome my dude. . so many talks to listen too then.
@@bensons999 motted
Closed captions are savage. Every stutter and fumbled word is represented perfectly.
would've been perfect if they added "quiet" or "minimal" to describe the [laughter] for his jokes that didn't go over well.
Thank you for this, 31:39 is perfect.
I'm so glad you pointed that out. It's comedy gold.
I'm thoroughly impressed! So it was transcribed by a human for/by DEF CON?
um, uh yeah.
So the FCC won't let me be, or let me be me, so let me see... I got that :)
Fukk Tha Police and whoever fuckin wit em..
I'm whiteboy n do ish my way..
J M did they cath the brain aneurysm in time?
itsa eminem quote mashall mathers show LP
I Love It !!! Genius
Knees weak palms are sweaty.
Ok Eminem wannabe
Hacking with physics --this has got to be my favourite DEFCon talk yet.
I know what's going on in VA. Anyone that travels during the holidays can tell you that entire state is funded by moving violations.
Has been for 40+ years. Used to drive 95 and it was the only state to worry about out of 7-8 states - and traffic was always terrible in that state compared to the rest.
@Derek Placeholder Gotta pay for em somehow, since taxes aint high enough to pay for it in the US.
I drive all over the country, and the Southeastern states are the worst of all about highway robbery. There are some states where you'll hardly ever see a cop, but from Virginia all the way down to Texas, it's nothing but speed traps.
Anyone drove Highway 58? Those counties and towns rely heavily on traffic citation income.
I heard of rumors Virginia police even consider Waze app a radar detector and wrote tickets for people using it as it alerts to their speed traps. I live in FL it is amazing how many people you see with Virginia tags doing the speed limit on the interstate either left or middle Lane while everyone else is swerving around the person from Virginia. The best part when police officer going with the flow of traffic 15+ over "blow" their doors off along with everyone else. I been through Virginia it's just a big speed trap it's not about safety.
This is going to mess with some self driving cars, isn’t it
ahah oh well
I'd imagine if a self-driving car were to use solely a LIDAR sensor system to navigate, yes. But most automakers are considering a multiple-redundancy type system anyway. e.g., the LIDAR sensors need to agree with the sonar which needs to agree with the optical, etc.
@@johnhoo6707 Only if it was well designed. And if we're not lucky, companies are going to cut corners. Just look at all the problems with autopilot in Teslas. (Musk is more of a Thomas Edison type, stealing inventions and pretending to be a great visionary, when in reality he's just a rich investor.)
I think most self driving cars use Lidar/Ultrasonic sensors, but I've heard a few that use radar as well. Most use multiple types of sensors for redundancy and accuracy tho
no wonder elon says lidar based cars are dooomed.
Before my radar got stolen, I used to joke that it was an ATM finder, seemed to go off every time i was near an ATM. Didnt realize it was the auto door frequency till now.
“Before my radar got stolen” is how every radar detector story begins
how does this have anything to do with DEFCON?
What do you mean by 'got stolen' ?
You obviously have no idea what GOT means.
You are not fluent in the English language.
read more books to educate yourself, if that is even possible to teach the unteachable.
Andrew_koala Go spread the toxic somewhere else. Man this comment put me in a bad mood real quick.
@@andrew_koala2974 You're a fucking idiot and an asshole lmfao.
What a phenomenal talk! you, good sir, are the shining example of what makes this community so amazing!
100 percent . I try to show everyone I meet this video ... Seriously
I'm so glad that defcon is on TH-cam now. I've wanted to go since I was a child.
Speed detection devices have digital signal processors. God tier hack sends back a set of encoded commands that compromise the devices. They have a speaker for beeping, so maybe have it play careless whisper
I'd prefer Eye in the Sky by The Alan Parsons Project.
Eye of the tiger would be pretty ironic.
fuck the police would be funny
Ridin' by Chamillionaire would be perfect for this.
Toto’s Africa
In the UK a guy did it with a 3rd party reverse sensor kit, modded signal blocks out radar, took to court and the guy lost. Police recognised the car after a while and clicked something was up putting an error on the screen every time it drive past.
@Arpad Toth ?
"You should seriously consider talking to the media about federal offenses." - only applies if you're not wealthy and/ or in politics, apparently.
If a human made it...a human can break it! Great talk :)
That raises the question of what if you you have an evolutionary algorithm design something?
The Hacker Manifest: Don't judge people by how they look.
Unless it’s in good fun
"Well, I'm out of jail. Fines are paid. So let's do this again." :D
Hahaha
*Ed Bolean and Alex Roy have entered the chat.
Alex Choi you mean?
@@ThePurplePupUwU no, absolutely not.
Hello ed boo lean
26:12 Random Eminem Reference
there should have been way more laughs
Not-so-random, but perfect.
noticed it immediately
was looking for this comment before
yes! not the only one :D
laughed so hard here
For laser, wouldn't a relatively high power LED array with a pseudo random generator producing high levels of white noise bury the signal. It would be like trying to listen to you clapping hands outside the airport terminal from across the street and listening for the echo while a jet is taking off. With daytime running lights, this would mask the fact there is a perimeter of bright IR LEDs by the headlights.
A passive Doppler speed radar is a radar horn with a tuned stub in the feedhorn that is tuned into and out of resonance with a varactor which modulates the radar signal return. This is not a transmitter, but a tuned retro reflector with a modulator. A variation I have seen had the antenna and feedhorn modified from a C band dish with the antenna polarization motorized by a small high speed motor. This works on the X band. Goal is to set the speed to display triple digits in a car that is not going anywhere that fast. Works well to wake up the officer behind the billboard reading a paper waiting for the money bell to go off. Never run it without being in a stream of traffic. Makes identification of the signal very difficult. Passive detectors will not see it as it is not a transmitter. It is tuned so it's retro reflection is much stronger than headlights. Selectively and rapidly changing polarization modulated the polarized radar signal 100%. Used to play with this in the late 1970's before it was illegal. Cruise control is very effective in highly enforced zones using excessive enforcement for revenue and is legal.
Just shine a constant 904nm ir array in all directions. If there is no off time there is no longer a pulse and therefore no way to measure. LEDs last 50k hours so who cares about it being on 100% of the time.
That's how the first gen lidar jammers worked. they were NOT eye safe and apparently you could feel the heat with your hands more than a foot away from the laser diode. Newer lidar guns will detect this type of jamming and alert the operator.
Won't your car light up like christmas on the cop's dashcam though? Camera sensors have a wider range of wavelengths they display as visible light, hence the clever "anti-paparazzi lights" or now "anti-facial-recognition" lights.
@@CamStLouis Cameras have a limited range of shutter speed. The lights that are modulated are outside the flicker detection of the imaging camera sensors. The "Christmas light" display is masked as part of the normal headlights, tail lights, plate lights of the car. The reflectors on the car modulate the reflected laser with high level noise. Yes, your light on the subject is masked by the light produced by the subject. Laser has filters to select it's wavelength and ignore outside wavelengths. We just happen to prefer to emit additional light in that band that is high in noise level near the pulse timing of the laser.
@@isettech To clarify, I'm referring not to the effectiveness of the jamming but the likelihood of detection.
Let's say it's a bright sunny day, the cop has headlights off and since light is coming from everywhere the retroreflective beads on the license plate are not making it look illuminated.
Wouldn't the IR emission be visible on the cop's dashcam like a TV remote control shows up on a home camera? Or is it far enough into the infrared spectrum that it doesn't appear?
the really interesting thing is the legality of intentionally reducing the radar cross section of your car. it may or may not be illegal to skin your car such that it has little or no radar cross section. most jammer laws focus on the jammer itself, and reducing your cross section is completely passive and requires no jammer at all
"the fcc wont let us speed, or let me be me, so lets see"
I did what you see there.
I heard of rumors Virginia police even consider Waze app a radar detector and wrote tickets for people using it as it alerts to their speed traps. I live in FL it is amazing how many people you see with Virginia tags doing the speed limit on the interstate either left or middle Lane while everyone else is swerving around the person from Virginia. The best part when police officer going with the flow of traffic 15+ over "blow" their doors off along with everyone else. I been through Virginia it's just a big speed trap.
Yo if you think that's crazy check out the precedent that two Virginia cops set for sniffing out marijuana using superhuman smell on the highway.
This is so true hated being in the DMV
"And that return measures...? Does anyone remember?"
"BOOZE!"
lmao that crowd...
I’d like to see Ed Bolian, or Arne Toman and Doug Tabbutt give a talk at one of these kinds of conferences about his Cannonball run because they went nuts for countermeasures like this. He has a youtube channel called VINWiki where he’s talked about it if anyone is interested. And actually his record was just broken by another team and they released videos on VINWiki going over the setup they had in their car for police countermeasures. They used laser jammers, thermal scope, brake light kill switch, along with modifying the rear end of the car with vinyl wrap to make it look like a different kind of car from the rear. They made it across the US in 27 hours and 25 minutes with an average speed of over 100mph. That includes fuel stops and everything, and they did it without getting stopped by the police even once, despite going nearly 200mph at some points. They aren’t huge techies or anything, they’re just car guys who like to do crazy shit like drive from coast to coast in a ridiculously low amount of time. I think the hacker community would be able to understand and relate. Ed and his team previously held the record, and Arne and Doug along with their 3rd just broke the record. Both are excellent stories though.
One takeaway I'm getting from this is someone who really wanted to make a laser speed finder robust against attack, really ought to not be using pulses at all, and ought to modulate the laser with spread-spectrum modulation, using a secure random bitstream. Make it more like spread spectrum radar but in the visible band. Of course, that's more expensive to do...
interesting. what's your technical background?
Speeding tickets are for revenue generation, not safety. If the government were seriously concerned about speeding, there are better ways to combat it than giving a tiny fraction of a percent of speeders tickets. So at the end of the day, they can always wait 5 more seconds and pick up the next guy - why spend a bunch of money on a complex solution when a laser with a 555 timer does the job.
He has shown that, the best way to learn to brake a thing is by learning how its working
You missed one big legal issue. Using a laser may be unregulated, but using it for the express purpose of "interfering with a police officer" can be a felony offense. If the cop knows what jamming looks like, all they have to do is pull you over, observe the jamming gear, and CONFISCATE THE EVIDENCE, which is your car. That's something to at least be aware of.
why did youtube recommend this to me? Does youtube want me to speed?
yes
nope, youtube just wants you to watch more videos
preferably ads
Anyone can speed, YT wants you to get away with it. Except in VA.
"How is this guy going 88 mph on his bicycle?"
Trololol
161
Once we hit 88 mph, you're gonna see some serious...stuff !
,
@@ITILII I was looking for this comment.
You can use a transverter or simple mixer circuit to bring up the frequency of the SDR's output.
Ya know, what if we built a system similar to Waze, where we use optical image recognition to detect the location of police vehicles. Or if Waze is up for it, integrate it directly into Waze, essentially automating the reporting of police presence?
Waze is Google-owned garbage thouhgh.
Police have already complained about Waze being able to "stalk" them. They asked countless times for Google to remove the police feature and of course Virginia was the biggest one complaining. I think the way Virginia combats it they switch locations on a more frequent basis so it's hard to tell new and old police reports. I used Waze when it first came out in Beta. Google will be releasing on Google map apps they already now have accidents and broken down vehicles. Last I checked police reporting would be added. The police are pissed now since both apps share reports. So now we will have a lot more people using the report police.
eri Waze hasn’t changed since google bought it...google owns waze but all the original staff work there still....also this feature of waze to report police is a good thing as they shouldn’t be sitting in one place for such a long time
@@dco5055 Crowd reporting Police traps is implemented in Google Maps for Android now and functions the same as Waze.
Police should feel slighted: it's shady business when they're fund-raising.
It'd be really crazy if cops encrypted their radios, which are only allowed to broadcast specific frequencies, constantly transmitting a handy public key to uniquely identify themselves... Wait.
Cost of the hardware: 700$
Cost of the engineering degree: 20,000$
Cost of the fine: 3000$
Cost of driving the speed-limit: Priceless
He probably had better fuel mileage too.
My degree was 43000
KC!!! way to represent, Bill!!❤❤❤
I just drove to a police speed camera van like 4 days ago, (yeah they have those here, they can't even be arsed to do their jobs in a country with speed tickets that increase the more one earns), and now i see this.
Interesting..
The Criminals in Government have to pay off their Debt + Interest to the International Banker Scammers, as inflation destroys the value, the Po lice
[blood sucking insects] and Courts uphold the Bankruptcy of the Country and the Police are there to commit Highway robbery, endorsed and supported by the Courts who play games with the people. That is what Courts are for.
This guy was on crystal meth. He used over a million words to say only three things: I used to jam traffic control lights so I could drive through green lights only. 2. I'm a speed freak and I jam radar when driving. 3. I have a device to jam laser radar.
2019: Hakc the Police!
2020: Defund the Police!
2021: Vaccinate the Dirty Cops!
@26:20 did they try to shut you down, on the MTV?
"RADAR works by measuring the doppler shift of sound waves"
*cringes hard in physicist*
although then immediately bringing up a diagram from hyperphysics (praise be) does slightly redeem it IMHO
I just learned my local sheriffs are using K Band by this vid.
Thanks for putting my MIRT in the slides ;)
Gj
Interesting
28:15 Miata is always the answer :)
I found 2 police radar guns at a mine so I gave them to a baseball coach I knew for his pitchers, wish I seen this first.
flash light at cop: Legal
flash light at light: Illegal
Cut people with a knife in a specific room: legal
Cut other objects in that room with a knife: illegal
Things have got to change!
People who vote for the R-word use this exact logic.
@@Baychimo but theres no difference between flashing a light at a device meant for flashing light at and flashing a light at a device meant for flashing light at
@@thatjokerperson7062 I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at, since you switched A to B, but of course there can be a lot of differences. Opening a lock with a key and opening another lock with a key can produce very different results, right? The action itself can produce varied results.
@@Baychimo well no you just used a key to open a door
@@thatjokerperson7062 Is it the correct key? Is the mechanism same? Am I allowed to open the lock? If I'm allowed, am I supposed to open it? Am I allowed to have the key? If I'm allowed, am I supposed to use the key? What can opening the lock impact? etc etc.
Should be pretty easy for anyone to understand.
I’m a retired firefighter. The small town I used to work in the police radar will actually pick up the radiator fan speed in the patrol car. They would have to distinguish between the car speeding or the radiator fan.
Wonder how many people got a ticket for something they did not do.
Just like aircraft can detect helicopters hovering above the ground by detecting the speed of the rotors.
Uhm,....no.
31:00 Virginia is headquarters of CIA
@xOr no surprise, backyard to DC as its residential area
Aren't radar Jammers a thing you can buy? And also illegal? In Romania I used to know people who used them and got tickets for it.
Yes. Yes...depending on what government controls the area.
This guy is absolute bonkers! Damn, what a talk! Thanks for the upload (sorry 'bout the necrobump).
This man is an American hero
"Chakotay informs her that the missile was programmed to adapt to all known weapon types, including Starfleet's, but Janeway is optimistic that Voyager's type 6 photon torpedos, which weren't in service yet when Dreadnought was launched, might just get through."
Also, at least in most of Europe, there are unmarked police vehicles out and about. They use neither radar or lidar. They simply have a dash cam and they drive at the legal speed limit (+buffer speed) and anyone passing them is deemed speeding and recorded doing so. The police vehicles speed is of course part of the video feed.
That's when you attach a gamma ray emitter to the back windshield of your car and fry their electronics (and everyone behind you, but it still does the trick!)
@@aliveandwellinisrael2507 Until you forget to turn it off and irradiate your wife, dog, children and pet chicken.
So far 8 minutes in and nothing's been said
2x is 4 min
Daniel Pontes 9:00 minutes and just bootlicking
This guy's talk was about 10x longer than it needed to be.
Brian no shit.... it’s a technical look.
It wasn't really technical - he didn't even cover basic concepts like the cosine effect. The most technical aspect of the whole first half of the talk was "here's the frequencies that confuse the most common radars, btw don't use them!" I was expecting something a little deeper than basically explaining what a commercially available laser jammer does, especially after talking a big game about how he could get arrested... come on, lmao
Not to mention the talk is factually inaccurate at some points - he didn't consider the Doppler shift of blasting those frequencies from a moving car as opposed to a stationary one, and Ka band is easily more popular than K these days. Though maybe not out in the sticks outside KC...
In the USA, Ka band is the band most used by police at around 34.7 MHz and Kustom signals xmits at around 35.5 MHz and are all digital Guns now. Good luck being able to jam all band of radar..
😂 The Ka band is 27-40 GHz NOT MHz.
@ BS! I'm a retired, radar certified instructor and retired traffic cop. If you don't believe me, call Kustom Signals or any major radar company and they'll tell you I'm right. Or just ask Vortex. It's definitely megahertz and not gigahertz. Custom signals is 34.7 MHz. Do any of you even own a Radar module or gun? I own multiple ones from multiple companies. All you have to do is look at a tuning fork and it'll tell you the frequency. Do you even know what a tuning fork is? Lmao!
I only watched this video for the Eminem reference, Mr. FBI agent
29:32 A couple years back I was driving down a main road in town at night and I noticed a green laser dot hit my windshield for a moment. I looked in that direction and sure enough, there was a cop clocking people.
This slide says they only use one wavelength, and it's invisible, so maybe that was an aiming laser for a regular radar gun.
or the laser sight on his rifle .. think about it
@@DiscoPornoSatan Why would a cop be aiming a rifle at passing vehicles? This was in town, on a main road, I think he was parked in a restaurant lot.
(2:05) skipCircleJerk&Go-direct-to-Swearingen->
Good to publish, tests fine.
For the laser jammer just send out a constant return. If there is no off to the pulse there is nothing to measure.
I'm surprised they don't use pulse encoding techniques. Also, what would happen if just a continuous pulse train of RF/laser was sent back to the detector - i assume this would reduce the signal-to-noise ratio below the threshold required to pick out the reflected pulse?
Psssst don't tell em
Well the laser is weak so encoding a signal a dirty headlight could make it lose "packets". The jammers could mimic the encode signal as it stays the same when it gets reflected back. Kinda like the pulse length it can be detected and replicated already.
Yeah on the one hand it might allow them to ensure integrity of their readings but you can always claim they just have a faulty speed gun anyway
Wow. Can't imagine why this was recommended to me. A great deal of rambling about how self important this guy and those like him are.
Fantastic speech Bill!
Is Brian Redban playing the sound effects on this podcast?
8:39, I do believe I won spot the fed, LMFAO.
The best hacker conventions are the ones you don't hear about. ;)
well msg link. a young mr robot would like to get his eye holes on these
@@squirrel3244 a link. That's your first mistake
@@squirrel3244 You're not ready if you're looking for information on such things in the open, especially a link. 😉
This thread reads like hsckforums.net used to in 2012 lmao.
this sounds like your classic average software developer trying to sound spooky
I'm having flashbacks to 25 years ago when was into this sort of exploring.
-97,420,118MPH … oh dear, imagine how confused ANYONE would be if they saw that pop up on their radar gun... 😂
Question... wouldn't just responding with a continuous beam for the laser overpower even the devices that employ countermeasures? or can they still detect the slight amplitude changes?
I was thinking the same. Probably exactly why you said
I don't know how but I swear to God my radar/laser detector saved me when I got the laser indicator and I hit the brakes and pulled into the right lane and the guy following me got the ticket.
wait, that one time I saw sign say zombies ahead and was terrified because I was a kid is because of a hacker?
No, it was actual zombos
19:20 - ish.. is the device passive, blindly sending a fixed frequency? If yes, have the radar gun makers started coming out with devices that randomly hop frequencies to counter this? Or maybe they don't see this as a widespread enough issue (yet?) to give any serious attention to. Edit: 25:15 is surely why this wont' become a widespread practice!
That first one is just a box. Orange or chrome or whatever color. You could download the plans when the net was running on dial up.
And i imagine in the future when we have another million tiny satellites out there in orbit, they will all identify and record moving vehicles and their speeds in real time.
Once it detects that a vehicle was speeding it will record that instance and dispatch a police vehicle to intercept that vehicle and give it a speeding ticket.
Good luck defeating that!
The upshot to this is that you now have perfectly accurate GPS as it actually tracks you visually rather than by triangulation.
Heck, imagine in the future with the boost in processing power etc you get a live feed from above of your vehicle. One satellite could track several thousand vehicles at the same time if not more and stream their video feeds down to the surface.
EU has sayd in 2025 they want all cars to send "speed data" to their database...
@@Coladudetje That sounds horrible honestly.
1) It could be disabled/tampered with because the car owner has direct access to the hardware.
2) EU privacy laws (assuming it doesn't go full North Korea on us) would probably prohibit it.
Having satellites watching you means you eliminate both concerns because...
1) Much harder to tamper with, requires an exploit on the backend.
2) Space isn't governed in this manner. Meaning it won't be a privacy issue. (Yes, laws are strange)
I did place anpr camera's and theres no privacy if you pick you nose we see it in all trucks theres is obu they pay also per mile or km here if you put you device off we pick the signal up and the ticket is 1600 euro's its sometimes hard to find a job... I quit cuz people attack you alle day and i understand that.
Our country belgium does break alot laws. Double taxation on alot of things. And if people strike or get mad they put you in mental institute like they do in china..
Alot of Chinese come here and we must teach Them how our factories run and then 3 compagnies already moved tot china as well... We become chinese slaves and eu pay Every city to keep refugees here while cities maling debt its all lost here...
Northrop makes a jammer that looks like a dome with random facets on it. It spins at various speeds. It reflects light and radar and confuses both
I don't think that would technically be a jammer.
@@ninja5672
Passive jammer. No transmission, but it confuses enemy system like chaff
Starts at 10:44
What does he mean when he says "the FCC regulates the radio spectrum and the FDA regulates the light spectrum?" Isn't that the same spectrum??
Radio is electromagnetic energy while light is photons
im a young teenager that wants to pursue the career of a hacker and coder, I have dreamed about going to defcon because i cannot find and other people like me where i live. its a massive bummer that defcons age minimum is but i am working on a hack called hack X and im excited to show it to def con when im older
bills error, explained. Radar doesnt 'reflect' back from trees, it is mainly absorbed by them. dry/dead trees are somewhat invisable to radar. wet trees absorb.
Hacking is becoming more and more just law work.
Was that green light device the one I saw on the FTS or From the Shadows vidcast like 20 years ago? Anyone else remember this forgotten show?
Wouldn't the formula need to account for your actual speed since you'll be doppler shifting the signals you're sending?
its one thing living in a society with laws, but when laws are created to oppress us, keep us under check , make sure we,re not having to much fun. Thats when things change.....big time
th-cam.com/channels/0bTll6V9gJV4Bkt8H7yd1A.html
Virginia is where all the people who designed these systems live and work. They’ve been beating this shit for 40 years, and if you’ve ever driven the beltway you know it’s white-knuckle even at the limit (which you never reach). Hence, speed detectors have been illegal in VA for as long as I can remember.
what effect would running 2 notchagocha's have? especially if running at slightly different timing...
26:13 is defiantly a Eminem quote lol Great Talk!
I was thinking along these lines a few years ago but didnt think it would be this easy. I thought the laser had a higher ID frequency like military lasers do as a way to get through jamming attempts.
I got hit with my first military laser in 1999 or 2000 on the local AFB when I was delivering pizza. First and only time it ever went off for laser. Yes it was the military police about 1/4 mile behind me.
It wasnt long after that when the US military clamped down on who was allowed on military bases because of 9/11. Luckily we have a lot of military people who deliver pizza, or we did back then, so they were the ones who always went on base to deliver after that.
I was expecting to feel stupid watching this video since i know nothing bout hacking, seems to be mostly common sense which is kinda cool tbh
The microwave as decoy-targeting technique has been used against the NATO bombings in Serbia during the 90ies civil wars
This guy looks like the smarter, intelligent, and more educated version of Joe Exotic. lol Great video BTW!
Question: How do you precisely target the gun with your own laser? You'd have to know where exactly the gun is positioned, right?
They're not using a laser to generate the fake return signal, they're using infra-red LEDs, because the amount of light that makes it back to the gun is so small that LEDs do the job just fine and don't need to be aimed, they just "flood" the area with the (very faint) fake return signal.
Aaaahhhh thank you.
Wouldn't you have to modulate the signal you're transmitting based on your actual speed? You're still going to produce Doppler shift even if you're transmitting instead of just reflecting. Seems the way it's set up will give you a constant proportion to your actual speed instead of a constant speed. I'm only 24 minutes in so my apologies if you cover that in the back half of the talk.
Sounds about right. I'm not sure if he left that out on purpose or didn't consider it, but you can definitely not send an "always 65mph" signal without being aware of and taking into account your actual speed.
This demo does not work. If the hammer is transmitting at the police frequency, but is moving, you still get Doppler. You just show up at half the speed you should. In some circumstances that might be enough
26:13 did no one noticed he actually did a Eminem reference
M&M sucks, bro
Eminem is dad music now 😂 I feel oooolllldddddd
No, everyone noticed.
What i dont get, though, is arent the cops just gonna go "ok he's clearly going faster than 65" or "i just got an error message" and pull you over anyway? So isn't it only effective if youre also willing to have a high speed chase and win?
When we were kids , we would take all the powder out of fire works and mix them. All together in one big firework and the goal was to make the homemade fire work so bright the street light would turn off. Hecknyea it worked. Alot 😅
Is it illegal to drive a stealth fighter down the road too?
Because what makes them work is the angles they present to any incoming radar wave which scatters them all over and also a special paint that absorbs radar signals.
In other words, just make your car into a stealth fighter changing the body shape and painting it in radar absorbing paint. (The paint is basically a layer of rubber BTW)
You can of course incorporate laser absorption into this too. First off, the angles will make it nearly impossible to find a target to aim for. Secondly, the paint will eat the 904 NM wavelength anyways.
The only problem with this is, it might be illegal to use these countermeasures...
For example, some European countries i know of makes it illegal to cover your license plates in certain clear lacquer that makes it impossible to photograph them. They are still perfectly visible to the naked eye.
Also, some designs makes it so you can't view the license plate from certain angles, like from above, which makes them invisible to automatic toll roads.
yeah ive heard of cases here in the netherlands where people got fined for having that lacquer on their licenxe plates. government was not too happy about that either.
Could probably take a stock Cybertruck, add wheel-well fairings, add stealth coating, and you're off to the races :D
I thought the laser beam has been encoded so the gun can determine its own signal from BG noise and countermeasures?
What is the calculation to determine what frequency correlates to any given speed?
Interesting! But would not the producer use frequency hopping on radars and randomize the laser intervals on the laser-gun? Then only the radar or laser gun would know valid frequency/interval and these countermeasures would not work. Or am i wrong? ps:I will probably not measure the speed of those who speed outside my kids kindergarten but correct them with the fist to face solution (or kick to car).
How is KA the emerging system? It's been in use for 25+ years already. Hell, the local military cops were using laser 25 years ago 🤣
This whole talk was super light on hacking, illegal stuff, or even true facts honestly. So much stuff he said is just misleadingly simplified or straight up wrong...