Most appreciated in this conversation is a scholar who is humble in his acknowledgment that what we don’t know far outweighs what we know. Refreshing discussion gentlemen. Thank you.
@34:30 Great comment by Chris Keith relating to the first attestation of the existence of the Gospel of Peter. Please ask Prof. Vinzent how he would apply this comment on events that trigger the articulation of a boundary to Marcion, who was evidently perceived to have knowingly crossed a boundary that nobody had dared to cross in this way before.
I think Matthew’s use of Book rather than gospel in his title sentence has these elements (Matthew is not saying ‘the gospel is his own book). Matthew is making clearer that ‘the gospel’ is Jesus’ message plus the message about Jesus, and that no one book completely captures this. Matthew uses several different written sources plus his own creative voice in rearranging material, cutting out and adding material. The author is not expecting his reader to immediately turn to Mark and conclude that Matthew’s book is somehow now ‘the gospel’. The most he would likely agreed with is that it contains the most important aspects of the gospel.
With conversations like these making so much sense, Christianity will have to take its place on the shelf of history as another of the ideologies that human beings have toyed with.
@@tookie36 As far as "not going anywhere" is concerned, the Pew Research Center has data that might shed some light on the current direction of Christianity. One of Christians' greatest faults is their grasping need to "have the most" of everything, both spiritual and temporal. The Christian Crusades, which cost some 9,000,000 human lives, is a case in point. The ruthless displacement of indigenous people in the Americas is another. A more recent example, the ranting of the Religious Right in the US with regard to the slaughter in Palestine, is a glaring illustration of a savage disregard for the lives of "others" in the human race. Christiaity has a long way to go in terms of bringing its actions into alignment with its words.
The bible is riddled with historical errors and contradictions that any reader can spot with no formal training in bible studies. If christians were going to abandon their infantile beliefs on the basis that they are easily disproven it would have happened already. The fact is christians pick and choose what to believe from their bibles, ignoring what they dislike and accepting what appeals to them, a process that leaves one believer ignoring the sickening violence and juvenile vengeance themes and believing only in Jesus' love and another of the faithful declaring anyone who disagrees with them as a demonically possessed heretic who must be put to d3ath for daring to disagree with them. Human beans typically engage in radical confirmation bias to handle the discrepancies.
@ There is a very good reason why all of the earliest known examples of Christian texts, Mark, Thomas, Paul's Epistles, Marcion's Luke, lack an account of the child Jesus' Virgin birth. Docetism was ubiquitous across the first Christ movements, for the individual a Virgin birth in Spirit was the core truth of these varied movements that would later come to fall under the umbrella term of Gnostics. It wasn't until decades perhaps scores of years after when the proto-orthodoxy under the guidance of Rome took hold that we have the Gospels of Matthew and an edit of Luke appear with the first accounts of the child Jesus and his miraculous Virgin birth, near 100 years after this supposed miracle of miracles occurred. Rome was never about a blanket persecution of all early Christians as history would have us believe, through a weaponized proto-orthodoxy/orthodoxy Rome targeted and memory-holed the Docetists, those having achieved gnosis who walked in the Spirit of Christ, the true Christians. Gnosis could never work with Rome's grand plan of centralized control of the population through the Church. Rome couldn't steal it, so they had to kill it. Thomas, Logion 79 (Leloup) >A woman in the crowd said to him: “Blessed are the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!” He answered: Blessed are those who listen to the Word of the Father and truly follow it, for the day will come when you will say: Blessed are the womb that has never borne and the breasts that have never nursed. IMHO
@ There is a very good reason why all of the earliest known examples of Christian texts, Mark, Thomas, Paul's Epistles, Marcion's Luke, lack an account of the child Jesus' Virgin birth. Docetism was ubiquitous across the first Christ movements, for the individual a Virgin birth in Spirit was the core truth of these varied movements that would later come to fall under the umbrella term of Gnostics. It wasn't until decades perhaps scores of years after when the proto-orthodoxy under the guidance of Rome took hold that we have the Gospels of Matthew and an edit of Luke appear with the first accounts of the child Jesus and his miraculous Virgin birth, near 100 years after this supposed miracle of miracles occurred. Rome was never about a blanket persecution of all early Christians as history would have us believe, through a weaponized proto-orthodoxy/orthodoxy Rome targeted and memory-holed the Docetists, those having achieved gnosis who walked in the Spirit of Christ, the true Christians. Gnosis could never work with Rome's grand plan of centralized control of the population through the Church. Rome couldn't steal it, so they had to kill it. Thomas, Logion 79 (Leloup) >A woman in the crowd said to him: “Blessed are the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!” He answered: Blessed are those who listen to the Word of the Father and truly follow it, for the day will come when you will say: Blessed are the womb that has never borne and the breasts that have never nursed. IMHO
For the Jews like Paul the Gospel is found in the Holy Scriptures, meaning the Torah, the Prophets and the Psalms. For the Greco-Romans, it is the Good News of the birth of a new Emperor and Son of God of the Roman dominions. Jesus is the Messiah meaning ruler. So Jesus is the New Ruler over the Roman Empire...
Most appreciated in this conversation is a scholar who is humble in his acknowledgment that what we don’t know far outweighs what we know. Refreshing discussion gentlemen. Thank you.
Witches aren't real
@34:30 Great comment by Chris Keith relating to the first attestation of the existence of the Gospel of Peter.
Please ask Prof. Vinzent how he would apply this comment on events that trigger the articulation of a boundary to Marcion, who was evidently perceived to have knowingly crossed a boundary that nobody had dared to cross in this way before.
Very good video. Nice to see a fair scholar.
JOHN CH21 is another of John’s expansive ‘corrections’ to Mark who states at his ending: ‘Jesus goes before you to Galilee. There you shall see him’
I suspect it was originally intended to be tacked onto gMark right after Mk 16:8 but was tacked onto the end of gJohn ch 20 instead.
I think Matthew’s use of Book rather than gospel in his title sentence has these elements (Matthew is not saying ‘the gospel is his own book). Matthew is making clearer that ‘the gospel’ is Jesus’ message plus the message about Jesus, and that no one book completely captures this. Matthew uses several different written sources plus his own creative voice in rearranging material, cutting out and adding material. The author is not expecting his reader to immediately turn to Mark and conclude that Matthew’s book is somehow now ‘the gospel’. The most he would likely agreed with is that it contains the most important aspects of the gospel.
With conversations like these making so much sense, Christianity will have to take its place on the shelf of history as another of the ideologies that human beings have toyed with.
Christians actually have the most open interpretation of divine inspiration so it’s not going anywhere.
@@tookie36 As far as "not going anywhere" is concerned, the Pew Research Center has data that might shed some light on the current direction of Christianity. One of Christians' greatest faults is their grasping need to "have the most" of everything, both spiritual and temporal. The Christian Crusades, which cost some 9,000,000 human lives, is a case in point. The ruthless displacement of indigenous people in the Americas is another. A more recent example, the ranting of the Religious Right in the US with regard to the slaughter in Palestine, is a glaring illustration of a savage disregard for the lives of "others" in the human race. Christiaity has a long way to go in terms of bringing its actions into alignment with its words.
The bible is riddled with historical errors and contradictions that any reader can spot with no formal training in bible studies. If christians were going to abandon their infantile beliefs on the basis that they are easily disproven it would have happened already. The fact is christians pick and choose what to believe from their bibles, ignoring what they dislike and accepting what appeals to them, a process that leaves one believer ignoring the sickening violence and juvenile vengeance themes and believing only in Jesus' love and another of the faithful declaring anyone who disagrees with them as a demonically possessed heretic who must be put to d3ath for daring to disagree with them. Human beans typically engage in radical confirmation bias to handle the discrepancies.
@@Mercury-Wells Well said.
Thanks 👍
Thomas was first, the foundational text of all Christianity.
It's too gnostic to be first.
@ There is a very good reason why all of the earliest known examples of Christian texts, Mark, Thomas, Paul's Epistles, Marcion's Luke, lack an account of the child Jesus' Virgin birth. Docetism was ubiquitous across the first Christ movements, for the individual a Virgin birth in Spirit was the core truth of these varied movements that would later come to fall under the umbrella term of Gnostics. It wasn't until decades perhaps scores of years after when the proto-orthodoxy under the guidance of Rome took hold that we have the Gospels of Matthew and an edit of Luke appear with the first accounts of the child Jesus and his miraculous Virgin birth, near 100 years after this supposed miracle of miracles occurred.
Rome was never about a blanket persecution of all early Christians as history would have us believe, through a weaponized proto-orthodoxy/orthodoxy Rome targeted and memory-holed the Docetists, those having achieved gnosis who walked in the Spirit of Christ, the true Christians. Gnosis could never work with Rome's grand plan of centralized control of the population through the Church.
Rome couldn't steal it, so they had to kill it.
Thomas, Logion 79 (Leloup)
>A woman in the crowd said to him: “Blessed are the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!” He answered: Blessed are those who listen to the Word of the Father and truly follow it, for the day will come when you will say: Blessed are the womb that has never borne and the breasts that have never nursed.
IMHO
@ There is a very good reason why all of the earliest known examples of Christian texts, Mark, Thomas, Paul's Epistles, Marcion's Luke, lack an account of the child Jesus' Virgin birth. Docetism was ubiquitous across the first Christ movements, for the individual a Virgin birth in Spirit was the core truth of these varied movements that would later come to fall under the umbrella term of Gnostics. It wasn't until decades perhaps scores of years after when the proto-orthodoxy under the guidance of Rome took hold that we have the Gospels of Matthew and an edit of Luke appear with the first accounts of the child Jesus and his miraculous Virgin birth, near 100 years after this supposed miracle of miracles occurred.
Rome was never about a blanket persecution of all early Christians as history would have us believe, through a weaponized proto-orthodoxy/orthodoxy Rome targeted and memory-holed the Docetists, those having achieved gnosis who walked in the Spirit of Christ, the true Christians. Gnosis could never work with Rome's grand plan of centralized control of the population through the Church.
Rome couldn't steal it, so they had to kill it.
Thomas, Logion 79 (Leloup)
>A woman in the crowd said to him: “Blessed are the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!” He answered: Blessed are those who listen to the Word of the Father and truly follow it, for the day will come when you will say: Blessed are the womb that has never borne and the breasts that have never nursed.
IMHO
Marcion was first
🏆
No
Opinion...opinion...opinion...
Like the dude says, We're all here guessing. Much better approach than declaring it's the word of a presumed god.
For the Jews like Paul the Gospel is found in the Holy Scriptures, meaning the Torah, the Prophets and the Psalms.
For the Greco-Romans, it is the Good News of the birth of a new Emperor and Son of God of the Roman dominions. Jesus is the Messiah meaning ruler. So Jesus is the New Ruler over the Roman Empire...
History is clearly not your strong suit.
How is it possible to have such a critical attitude and talk in such a dialect? That should be genetically impossible.