For me, it made a noticeable difference. I was running a 7.3.2 With a Marantz 7015 receiver. I have Klipsch RF7 IIIs and an RC64 III on my front soundstage. Also have RP8000f towers In the rear. I put an Anthem 325 on the LCRs. It did wake them up. But it woke up the mid range in the rear/heights even more. I assume because the LCRs were no longer stealing all of the power LOL. Not just a headroom improvement, but improved detail too. I'd say the hungrier, higher quality speakers will yield the most noticeable difference.
I have a 100wpc Onkyo receiver with Klipsch in a 5.2 setup. About 13 yrs ago I got an Emotiva xpa-3. Had to send it back due to some humming I could not get rid of. In all honesty I could not hear any difference ( minus the hum ). A better sound stage. ( maybe ) I'm thinking that an external amp may be a waste of $. With my low to moderate listening levels and the efficient speakers, It's hard to justify. Even a BasX Emotiva amp, I don't think I'll hear an improvement. Any thoughts out there ?
@@rickadams9 I think the Klipsch speakers are so efficient, that u get a lot of output and detail without a lot of power. But the highest end Klipsch speaker still will show a nice improvement, especially at increased volume. That's where the receivers and smaller wattages will start to seem stretched. Plus if u have a larger room, lack of power becomes immediately noticeable.
@@TheRealMB Thanks for your input. If I do get an amp, and at a later date decide to go with atmos, at least I'll have some of that covered. Thanks again.
And keep in mind 100 watts vs 200 is only 3db. At loud volumes noticeable but dint expect it to be like whoa!!! I went from a 200 to 300 per channel within the same brand as I expected at loud volumes noticeable. Reg volumes not so much. I've had alot of power amps too. Dont let price make you think you are necessarily getting a better amp either. Emotiva ATI outlaw have performed as good as parasound halos, aragon. Levison, and other high end amps I've had.
To answer your question, no, I do not use a separate power amp. My living room is 13' x 14'. All the speakers in my 7.2.4 system are rated at 87dB sensitivity, and my AVR is 150 watts x 2 with a 600 watt power supply. So far, so good. I have cranked it up fairly loud and it still plays distortion-free. My sound system consists of 4 SVS Ultra Bookshelf speakers (2 for the mains and 2 for the side channels), an SVS Ultra Center speaker, 6 SVS Prime Elevation speakers (4 ceiling mounted for Dolby Atmos and 2 mounted on the back wall for the rear channels) and 2 SVS SB-3000 Subwoofers. The system is powered by a Yamaha Aventage RX-A8A 11 channel AVR connected to a Panamax M5400-PM Power Conditioner.
I am in a very similar situation as you are.... I'm NOT using a separate power amp but considered getting one: Living room is: 12' x 13' Layout: 7.2.4 (bookshelf speakers varying from 87db to 96db sensitivity) AVR: Marantz SR8015 2x FL/FR: Klipsch RP-600M Bookshelf 1x Center: Klipsch RP-500C Bookshelf 4x Rears: Klipsch RP-500M Bookshelf 4x Heights: SVS Prime Elevation Bookshelf 2x Subwoofers: SVS PB-2000 Pro
Lee that all depends on how far you sit, the sensitivity of your speakers and how loud do you listen. Some systems 100 will be sufficient while others will need much more.
UPDATE: May 2024 - My wife and I moved into a much bigger house and the first thing I noticed was my system sounded different, like it was straining. I play it loud, and my YAMAHA AVENTAGE RX-A8A was powering all 11 of my SVS speakers. I purchased a PARASOUND HALO A52 + to power my 5 bedlayer speakers and left the remaining rear channel speakers and the 4 Atmos speakers for the Yamaha to power. The improvements were AMAZING!!! MUCH better definition, MUCH better clarity, and definitely MUCH more volume. It honestly sounds like an entirely new system!!!
You nailed it! Depending on 3 things: speaker sensitivity, desired listening volume and crossover point to subwoofers. 55 watts per channel RMS at low THD can be more than enough power. It is a multi variable equation. Short answer: it depends. Great job explaining.
If your speakers can handle a lot of power, it's worlds of difference! Denon 6300 was my only power source for many years, now for 1 year the Arendal 1723 THX are in the house (LCR) and since 2 weeks I have an Emotiva xpa-3 Gen3 connected, it is a huge difference, in music, film....chicken skin and bleeding ears!!! I love it!!
I don't remember the receiver I had, but I added a 5x200 watt Outlaw amp about 15 or 20 years ago. The speakers were small Tannoy PBM 6.5 studio monitors. The improvement in sound quality was dramatic. The amp was a good value. I'm still using it, but I'm on my 3 processor and 3rd set of front speakers. In all fairness, the speakers were fine until my 2 year-old thought the aluminum dome mid-range was a button and kept pressing it. :( I've never had a $6000+ flagship receiver, but compared to the amp in a sub $1000 receiver, an external amp is a must. And now, you can get a decent amp for a pretty good price. However, If I were starting from scratch, I'd likely use 3 powered studio monitors for LCR. As an audio engineer, I really love the flat and accurate sound that studio monitors give. I designed a home theater for my Dad 20 years ago with all Genelec monitors and it's still as good as a post production sound stage - it was REALLY expensive, not a bad value when you consider how long it's been.
I have an Emotiva XPA7 hooked to an Arcam AVR11. I noticed a huge difference right away. Not only were action scenes more dynamic but the clarity was much better.
It's not day and night, but it is noticeable. When I had my theater in a 10'x12' room, the SR7012 performed well. When I went to a larger room, external amps helped. With a larger room, you tend to turn it up louder. Also, with larger amps, I seemed to have better dynamics at lower volumes. Some think I am crazy though.
Agree. Im in a 9x14 room, and i needed the amp to use my denon 3700h for a 5.2.4. Without the amp, the AVR struggled with volume and clarity. With an amp, it easily improves the sound. Strangely, in another room with a 5.0.2 my power conditioner seemed to add amplification capabilities to my 7 channel AVR. But i dont think AVR power amps are enough when you start adding surround channels or have inefficient LCR.
Lol there aren't better dynamics at 'Lower' volume with bigger amps. At higher volumes that exceed the smaller amp's limits then sure. SINAD is very important if you want extra bits of dynamic capability and the leaders in that category are topping and benchmark which aren't achieving this by adding wattage headroom.
@Al Better sound using decaded Amps at lower volume has more to do with a separation of consurns than watts, manufacturers limit production costs by selecting cheaper parts in AVRs, there's also an issue with crosstalk, but the biggest issue is the lack of current needed to push the signal to the peak before time runs out, this results in the clipping or rolloff of the signal, when a high powered Amp is connected, this is reduced at all volume levels, but maybe more noticeable are higher demands of volume.
Like almost everyone I started with a simple 5.1 receiver several years ago. If you have the budget, a separate pre/pro and amplifier(s) is the way to go. The power supplies in AVR’s aren’t mage to do everything they are asked to do
Adding just a stereo power amp for the front speakers is usually the most VFM upgrade as about 50% of the sound in a 5/7 channel set up is delivered by the front left and right channels. Stereo power amps are a dime a dozen, compared to 3, 4, 5 channel amps. Most of us have an older stereo power amp in our collection.
I have a high end Onkyo 9 channel theater amp (130 watts RMS per channel @ 8Ω, 4Ω stable) powering a set of vintage Pioneer HPM 1100 speakers (125 watts RMS, 6.3Ω,) The Onkyo, used alone, works well powering them, but at times, it sounded weak when also driving the 7 other speakers. The only solution is to use a second amp. I had a Pioneer Elite 4 channel amp @ 135 watts per channel, that I started using for the sole purpose of driving these large speakers. Using two class AB amps is a massive power draw, and would dim lights on loud bass notes. To solve this problem, I had to plug the second amp into a different electrical outlet. I recently bi-amped the HPM 1100s. A Crown XLS 2502 pro-amp now handles only their bottom 15-inch subwoofers. I needed an amp this powerful because I replaced the old subwoofers with two 1000-watt Skar DDX-15-D2. The Crown XLS 2502 is a class D amp. Class D amps are supper efficient, and perfect for driving subwoofers. The problem with class AB amps is, when they are on, they are always drawing a massive amount of power. The higher the wattage and number of channels it has, the more power it draws. Any amp can work as a second amp, but it may not be your best choice. Use the right amp for what you need. .
Great simplified explanation! I've had quite a few AVRs over the years, last being a Denon 6200 + Onkyo 2 channel amp. Big fan of Denon for general purpose. I'm running 9.4.4 Atmos and in my room, the power was just about right. It got loud enough and was still clean enough to be acceptable. After about 5 years with the last configuration, I decided to change things up and replaced everything with Emotiva gear: MC-1 13 channel processor + A6 & A7 amps (13 channels). Never having heard a system with separates before, I wasn't sure what to expect and hoped for a night and day difference. Well, as you pointed out in this video, that's not to be expected and certainly wasn't my experience. However, I think there is more fidelity with this setup, and after room correction, I like the bass response more now at the MLP. I'm the most home theater snobby out of anybody I know and the upgrade was worth it to me. Can other people tell the difference when they come over? No. EVERYTHING sounds better than TV speakers or a sound bar. At least my immediate family all have AVRs, so they are all a step above the general public anyway. Keep on with the great content!
Your speaker resistance is also a important thing to consider when choosing AVRs and power amplifiers ... A 4 ohm speaker will double the workload of a AVR amplifier compared to a 8 ohm speaker, Problem comes from that AVRs generally don't release any more power when presented with a 4 ohm load so in simple terms the AVRs power rating is halved when you have 4 ohms speakers...AVRs generally produce no extra power with 4 ohm loads , cheap to mid priced power amplifiers can generally give about 50% boost to power and expensive amplifiers can become true " double down amplifiers"...
A good test of the Amp power is to look at the rating at 8 ohm, 4 ohm, and even 2 ohm... a good Amp will double its rating at each ohm rating, a 150 watts 8 ohm rating that doubles to 300 watts 4 ohm rating is a good Amp, but if it doubles again at 2 ohm, it's a very good amp.
@@ronmurphy4234 Only true double down amplifiers do this and they represent less than 1% of all AB amps...AVRs are the worst at this as most don't release any extra power when presented with a 4 ohm load...
@Echo Actually, it shows how AV receivers lack current, that's why you rarely see numbers except 8 ohm. People like to talk about watts, but know nothing about current, kinda like horsepower numbers, when the power people feel is from the torque... the same with watts and current.
As a home theater enthusiast for over 30 years (back to dolby pro logic). There has been two things that vastly improved my experience. The first was calibrating my channel levels using a spl meter. This was before the days of Audessy/dirac etc. The second was adding an external power amp. The improvement in fidelity was incredible. I rarely listening at "reference" levels but the amp made it clear my avr had been struggling
You mostly got it right. The available wattage to each added channel is not linier, unless all speakers are equal. When using efficient (sensitive) speakers, the available wattage per speaker will not drop much. Each speaker you add to your Amp, depending on its needs, takes its share of the available wattage from the power supply. If you have power hungry vintage front speaks as I do, at louder volumes, they will suck your main amp's power supply dry. They will do this to the extent of stealing power from all of the other speakers, leaving themselves to also sound under driven, and weak. To take that load off of your main amp, run RCA cables from this theater amp’s front channel pre-outs to a power amp. This power amp will do a much better job driving these large front speakers. This greatly improves the dynamic range of the entire sound system. I have 4 amplifiers in my main sound system, including two active subwoofers.
Good info. All about caps, capacitors that is. Power supply charges them up for them bombastic events, instant power on tap. An AVR has limited room allocated to: processing, I/O, video, AND must provide speaker power ...whereas a dedicated amp in its simplest form is just a power supply and caps! Thats the efficiency and benefit, the right tool for the right job.
Great video - Only thing I'm uncertain about is due to my speakers; RF7 II L&R (101db sensitivity) and RC64 II C and their remarkable high efficiency and is an amplifier warranted. I have a Denon 6400 receiver and i'm considering getting an Emotiva XPA-5 (200 watt per channel) to get more head room and clarity but having such efficient speakers it might not be necessary. I'm running a 11 (7.2.4) speaker setup with 2 subwoofers so I'm sure the amp is diluted pushing all those speakers. I know there are alot of experts out there, maybe even someone with similar setup who can offer advice.
I have owned over 50 pair Klipsch speakers over the years. I have never experienced a night and day difference when adding external amplification at 200 W per channel or more. But I still prefer to run them in my set up. Just know the law of diminishing returns is at work.
i returned the first LX505 because the chip had gotten corrupted as a result of a speaker wire short. Got the replacement and have been very pleased. But then I ordered and connected a Tonewinner AD7300PA + and have been even more pleased and impressed, I do wish I could control the crossovers independently and the subs were separated but those aren't deal breakers. In Australia the Onkyo RZ50 was 200.00 more than the Pioneer. I've had no trouble getting into the menu. If i would warn about anything it would be about speaker connections and wire shorts, which can be potentially disastrous
Great explanation and great points! My upgrade Path on my main system included upgrading the receiver first, then adding a 3-ch amp for the front. Already got the jamming SVS-3000PB subs, Klipsch RP Towers in the Front, and 4x Ceiling speakers for Atmos/Surround. As much as I want to upgrade, it really is enough power to crank beyond comfort. With high efficiency main speakers, even with the LPF off on my mains, which I strongly prefer with good towers, I never notice any distortion or strain. And for music, I use stereo mode, which gives them more power anyways.
My old Harman/Kardon receiver is "only" rated at 75W per ch, but that's driving all 7 channel at 20-20kHz 0.07% THD and its power supply is rated at 890W, so it never struggles to power all 7. In contrast, the receiver I'm interested in, the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 ch, is 105W/ch but its power supply is smaller at 660W. It also weighs 4lbs less. However, I'm looking at this one because it has preouts. It's ironic you'd have to spend much more on higher models with more power and features just to get preouts.
It makes a big difference when you have quality components and speakers. Recently added the Anthem AVM with the Emotiva DR3 and XPA5,G3 and the SVS 7.3 System is so clear that it is scary. My other system has the Marantz AV7705 with the Parasound A-23+ and A-52+ with Klipsch RF-7iii’s and that is magical as well.
I noticed a difference, even with almost the same wattage, from the avr , to a external amplifiers ,it's like there is more going on, this hobby it's like you never have enough, that xpa dr3 is next on my list, after I take a breader.
Just got my first amp(emotiva xpa5 gen 3) with full klipsch 7.2.2 and honestly I haven't really noticed that much of a difference yet. I think only time you really notice a difference is when it's turned up loud.
Same with all of my Klipsch systems. Klipsch are very efficient and don’t require a lot of power. Certainly not night and day difference adding external amplification
My current set up for a 14.38x 22.86 room are: Klipsch 7.1 Ebony System with 2 RP-280F Tower Speakers, 1 RP-450C Center Speaker, 4 Klipsch RP-250S Surround Speakers, 2 BIC Platinum Series PL-200 Subwoofer, 1 Marantz SR5012 Receiver. My projector is a Optoma UHD50 True 4K Ultra High Definition DLP Home Theater Projector. Can I make it better? what other components I should add to make it sound better? Do I need subwoofer amplifier? Theater power amplifier? Any help is much appreciated. I learnt and enjoy watch lots of your video and thank you so much.
Michael, in my case (SR-8015 RF-7IIIS RC-64III) I'm thinking about either 3 monoblocks or a 3 channel amp for the reserve headroom. Which do you like more Emotiva or Monolith and why?
Not always AVR power ratings and speaker sensitivity are as described (most of the time - there is less CLEAN power, than on spec sheat and same with some speaker sensitivity - eg. Klipsch Reference Line speakers are ~ -5dB less than on paper and 4-6 ohm (still sensitive tho) Dedicated good spec amplification makes big difference in real home theatre setup + AVP (if you can afford)
@@robertspringer9477 On “paper” - yes maybe 96dB (just to make customers happier), but reality is different. Klipsch RP line measured in different way than most other brands. There is many forums and videos about it - please search
Great video, and agree with the content. However, there are some A/V receivers that do have dedicated power to each channel, that the wattage does not get reduced as you add more speakers. Each speaker output is dedicated, and the power wattage is not split up. My JBL A/V receiver is that way, and is not based on the "2 Channel" configuration as some amplifiers like to use. I'm able to have my surround speakers just as loud or just as much power as my front Right, Left, Center speakers. All speakers get the same output wattage, regardless if there's 3 speakers or 5 speakers connected. But you have to watch which A/V receivers actually do this. Needless to say, this makes for a very large, and heavy A/V receiver that needs plenty of "air".
I currently have a Denon X4700h AV receiver, which says it has nine different power amps rated at 200 watts each. To me, this means each speaker is getting 200 watts. Please correct me if I am wrong. I want to know if that is correct or if I should add a separate amplifier to push my Definitive Technology DM80 LR and DM30 C speakers. I have been looking at a seven and nine channel Monoprice Monolith as well as Summit HiFi amp. Thanks in advance.
Thanks for the excellent explanation. Not alot of people know that. I like also that like emotiva they show that their amps show that all channels are driven with their amps. Thank you Michael.
Good summary. Answer is "maybe". I like Michael's point at the end that other components likely come first - good subwoofers, speakers, and addressing the room acoustics will definitely be more important before worrying about external amplification.
When using external amps, does the preamp voltage decrease if you go from front 3 LCR to 5 or 7 channels, all running at the same time? Can an AVR fully maintain its voltage so that the power amp runs at its full potential when all channels are driven at different volumes?
Bought an Emotiva XPA5-Gen3 a while ago. At this time I had a Denon X4400 and a Klipsch RP 5.1.4 System (280F, 450C, 160M). Long story short, I returned it. I'm usually listening at - 20 to -15. I wasn't able to notice a difference at all. I had it once that I thought the Denon went out of juice, this was whilst listening music at +15 in All Channel Stereo, but this was more or less just a test because thats way above "apartment listening levels". To be fair, I haven't tried the Emotiva at this volume, because it would be an unrealistic scenario (for me) anyway.
I did notice a slight improvement when I added an Emotiva XPA-2 to off load my L and R speakers. I should probably get a 3 channel one day to power the center channel as well.
Very happy with my Emotiva A3 powering LCR (and LR in preout mode) with my Denon x3700h. I can definitely hear an improvement. External amplification is a must is using 4ohm speakers in my opinion. Recently added bass traps to first reflection points along side walls. Clarity further improved.
@@bigdreams5554 I feel that is incorrect. Ohm is a measure of resistance. When an amp gives 8ohm and 4 ohms ratings, there's a reason why it states higher power. E.g. the BasX a3 delivers 140 into 8ohms, and 200 into 4ohms. There's less resistance so more of the power actually reaches the drivers. The reason why some avrs don't have 4ohm ratings is because it's more difficult in the sense of stability and quality. It's not a matter of not enough power. It's the opposite.
@@frostman9661 you right about power. It does require more current , which some AVRs may have difficulty providing consistently, or without generating a lot of heat. I found a link on audioholics website describing this but my post gets deleted when i try to include it here.
If you have a less powerful AVR that struggles to keep up to yiur system, the best option would be to upgrade your AVR before adding dedicated amps as your current AVR with low power is alao likely to be shy on quality processing capabilities. A cheap AVR with dedicated separate amps will not sound nearly as good a a decent AVR, simply based on technology and processing abilities. So spent $1500-$2000 on a solid AVR instead of the same on solid amps to drive a 10 year old AVR with low power supply or a current $500 cheap AVR. Amps may give you more power but that ia only beneficial if your AVR does a good job processing it
@@gregworrel2623 I was referring to used or old, ones that were mid range but many years old that were a number of generations behind on technology. This does not for every situation, just moat of them. If you had a Rotel, Anthem, Arcam ir similar, they were top of the line as as long as they provide you with the codecs you are happy with, then they can produce quality sound. If you had a a Denon or Yamaha at the entry level of allowing external amplification and it is 7-10 years old, you would be better of getting a new AVR instead of adding am external amp
I have a general question about amps. Does it matter what brand you get? I have a Pioneer LX505 for a 7.1 setup that I plan to eventually move to a 7.1.4 setup. I was looking at either getting a monolith 2ch amp to power height speakers or maybe 3ch amp for the LCR speakers. I have Klipsch speakers all around. Any issues with monolith amps from monoprice?
Yeah, it also helps to do a little research using a speaker power calculator. With my MLP distance, speaker sensitivity, etc Turns out at the levels I normally listen to, it was sucking back a whopping....3 watts per channel. At -15db on the dial it was maybe 20 watts per channel. At the very most at uncomfortable levels. Confirmed with killawatt at the wall. Which a decent AVR can handle just fine. It made zero difference sonically, added a small hum to the system that was fun to figure out....but my AVR runs coolers. So yeah, use a speaker power calculator first after determining what spl levels you want to see what power you're using or need.
I agree with this advice. Never listen to an audio sales person telling you you need 100-200W without sound reason. I use a wopping 0.045W(nominal) per channel is for good loud listening with my 26hz+ speakers. Very loud is 0.5W peaks. Revel says my speaker is about 93db/Watt @ 3ft.
Using 4/10’s of 1 watt on a 93dB sensitive speaker is loud on your system. I’m calling bluff on that one. I would be curious how you came to that conclusion.
@@Youthman Looks like some miscalculation there. But 86dB at 10 feet in room only takes 1 watt with 93dB sensitive speakers. So it depends what he means by "loud." In my opinion always better to get higher sensitivity speakers rather than more power.
@@Youthman My perception of loudness must different than yours by a wide margin. I think 0.045W makes talking actors sound only as loud as real people talking in my room from 9ft. Half a watt is probably in like a man loudly yelling "aaah" in the passenger seat of a car with you. Don't forget to calculate the 2nd speaker also at 0.5 Watts. You can feel some bass hit in your chest and feel the floor vibrating. 5-12W per speaker is like standing in front of DJ speakers at a club. The closet doors, bedroom door and stuff is jittering noisily and it feels like all the air in the room is vibrant and alive. I had a friend over and the Partition song by rihana with the extended beginning, at about 5-12W had him touching the ground because of the vibration and air pressure shouting, "this is too much!" over and over. The room is over the garage. Here is a picture. I can tell my watt usage because of my Mcintosh amp shows it. Also, you can tell from the closet doors the scale of things and the 85" tv. The roof is also at angles reducing the air volume in the room. ibb.co/album/ZN7Cqr
Hi Sir I recently bought Marantz SR8015 receiver and planning on buying a pair of RP-6000F and a RP-504C for my first home theatre build. I see that the sensitivity for these speakers is 96dB. So, does it mean if I sit at 4m from the speakers, I still get 84dB using just 1W, given that for each doubling of distance it takes 6dB away? Or to put it other way, does it just take 16W to raise the dropped volume to 96dB again at 4m, having to double the wattage for each 3dB gain to compensate for the lost 12dB? And I don't think I'll ever go beyond 85dB during movie watching. If that's the case, is my SR8015 more than enough for my use case?
I'm going to buy the Tonewinner AD-8300 amp this weekend. Any advice on what brand or style of RCA cables to use as interconnects? It seems I can only buy them in singles or pairs, but I need about a dozen of them +-1 ( I have 9 speakers and 2 subs). Can I use my subwoofer cables as 2 of my interconnects or wouldn't they be compatible?
Speaker efficiency is a huge deal too...I make it a point to buy very efficient speakers so my amp doesn't have to work as hard to achieve the desired volume level with the same amount of power...most of the speakers in my system have a sensitivity >95db...and it makes a huge difference
I have a different reason for thinking of adding an amp but I'm not sure how to do it or if it's even worth doing. I have two pairs of outdoor speakers that I want to be able to control the volume from my AVR (Marantz SR7005). Will adding an amp allow me to do this? If so, what type (4 ch/5ch, etc) should I consider? I'm hoping I described this well enough for someone to answer this.
MY question is (As I just bought 4 Ch amp yesterday) Why am I adding a $1500 Emotive power amp to run my 3 mains if I bought a 140 watt AVR for $2500? I bought my 4 ch's to run all the other channels and let my AVR run my 3 fronts.
I've got a Marantz Cinema 50, running a 5.1 system and I use a Parasound 2 channel amp on the left and right speakers. I think it makes a more noticeable difference on music listening and the sound tracks for movies. I'm considering adding another amp to power the center, just not sure if it will make much of difference on the center channel output. Great Video!
I have 2 boxes with a pair of EV 15's in each box. Both boxes have a hi freq horn on top. These were originally placed behind the 13'x28' screen. I also have 8 EV2-10 speakers. Originally these were driven by (3) QSC 2600A amps and a JSD-60 processor. I'm a noob and I've learned you need a computer interface to manage this system so I probably won't be able to replicate it. I bought out a closed theater and I am just looking to power this system up for outside use in the backyard. The Subs are 500 watt each. That's about all I know. What would you suggest?
Thanks for all the work you do to try to teach us about sound and audio. I believe i have watched every video you have done. I have learned alot through your videos.
I have a onkyo tx nr 555 avr and 7 onkyo 980 thx speaks when I bought them onkyos and evert retail store said they are 6 ohms so I thought ok my avr does 140 watts 6 ohms turns out they are actuily 8 ohm speakers in that case my avr only does 80 watts 2ch driven at 8% distortion . Now my onkyo 555 does not have pre outs it only has zone 2 witch I can't use for 7.2 or atmos with the other 5 speakers . Is there anyway I can get more power to my speakers and still benefit all my processing from my avr . ?
Another question (after re-watching this video)...right now, I have all my speakers - 7 bed and 2 heights - hooked up to the amp via pre-outs. Would it be advantageous to reconnect everything except the LCR from the amp and put them back into the AVR? That way, I'd get more power from each channel, with the AVR handling 6 and the amp handling 3, or would I lose the extra fidelity of using the AVR as a processor?
A lot will depend on the sensitivity rating of your LCR. Typically you will get more power from the Emotiva than you will by only using theres of the channels on your AVR.
@@Youthman The AVR (X4700) puts out about 125WPC into all channels, where the amp (Tonewinner AD-8300) puts out about 2x to the LCR and about 105 WPC to each of the other ones with all channels driven. I did notice a difference in my LCR on the amp, not in volume, but in clarity and punch. In stereo mode, I get even more out of the amp's LCR. My LCR are Klipsch RP-600Miis.
@@Youthman In the end I decided not to change all the wires around again...for one thing, my shelf is too heavy to move anymore on my carpet (glass and metal) and I figured, using an 11-channel am for 3 speakers kind of defeats the purpose :) Thanks for your responses, though!
“Would have gone”, not “would have went”. Adding an Emotiva amp if equal or (preferably) higher wattage to replace an AVR will almost always result in an easily appreciated improvement in the sound.
What about subwoofer amplification what do you recommend? I've been looking at GSG subs but to get plate amps is so expensive. I wonder if passive is the way to go.
hi, i need your advice please my setup is yamaha rx-a2080, yamaha NS-777 L/R yamaha NS-C444 CENTER yamaha NS-333 x 6 speakers, in a 5.2.4 setup i also have ROTEL RB-993 ROTEL RMB-1066 i can add another pair of speakers NS-333 and let the A.I. deside what is best when i watch a movie and what speaker set not to use. will this work? will my system be better with the use of the ROTEL power amps? or without
Hello Youthman, I need your advice. I use Marantz sr8012 with Klipsch 7.2.4 set up. Just now I want to boost up my front LR use Parasound 2250 and I am beginner on this. What I do, I simply take off these 2 front LR from AVR and put it to Parasound, connect preout LR to Parasound input and put the trigger on. when I'd like to set in Amp Assign, I can't find the pre amplifier like what I see others do with SR8015. But when I play the receiver with the above set up, I can hear sound from these 2 front LR. My question is, what did I do wrong in the set up? or simply SR8012 actually don't need external amplifier. thanks in advanced.
Your preouts are always on so as soon as you connect the Marantz to the Parasound using RCA preouts and speaker wire from Parasound to your speakers, you are good to go
From the AVR or Processor. Most people would not be able to tell the difference between amps in a double blind test unless maybe it was a tube amp because they intentionally add distortion to the sound.
The Amp can only ampfly what's sent to it, but there's less chance of noise being introduced by crosstalk from internal components processing the signal, noise can still be introduced by cables. Any amplifier can appear to affect the sound by running short of power (current) and clipping or rolling off the signal, this can result with damage to the speaker.
But why do some people say when they add a dedicated amplifier they don't hear any difference? Actually I have two questions the second question is why do a AVR only put out let's say 140 x 2 speakers when it's a Home Theater receiver??👍🏽✌🏽
Answer to your first question, often times it depends on things like the sensitivity of your speakers. If you have high sensitivity speakers, you were here less difference by adding power because it’s already taking very little wattage to get your speakers to reference volume. Answer to your second question, it’s not that AVR’s are 140 W x 2 that’s just the power rating with only two channels driven. That same AVR rated powering all nine or 11 speakers might drop down to only 55 watts per channel.
Great, informative video. Is it purely down to higher volumes then (i did notice i had to increase the volume after adding 4 atmos speakers)? But regarding your analogy with the cars, does this mean timings can be affected also🤔
It is all about control. The power has to control the conus from the speakers, in other words, more power will control the movements of the speaker tighter. Ideally you want 1,5 times more power than your speakers max rating So for a 150 watt RMS speaker you should want 200 watt rms Amp.
Youthman, great video. However, there are a couple of very important specs when rating amplifiers that go unnoticed by many people. Looking at the rated watts with 2 speakers driven is the first part but at what ohms? Many amps aren't happy at say 4ohms where many smaller or expensive speakers live e.g. bookies and tweeters. And at what frequency range is the rating? The latter being the slick marketing companies do. If the ratings aren't at the full spectrum of 20hz to 20khz it's snake oil. Period. Many list their power ratings at 1khz ! Even with adding a sub, an amp still needs power to drive the mids and bass frequencies above 80hz. And if you're running your front speakers at full range...smh you got played ! So my advice, do your homework with whichever component you start with when building your home theater and make sure they play nice with each other. Finally, and I totally agree with Youthman, get a good power amplifier. At least a 3 channel or more but make sure your AVR has pre-outs before you buy one. ✊🏼
The short short answer is yes...ish (slightly noticeable most times depending on power/speaker needs/listening volume). More real RMS power = more voice coil motor control = thus lowering distortion (at higher volumes).
Manufacturer website will typically show how much power they recommend. I’m ok using twice their max. So if a speaker is rated up to 150 watts continuous, I’m ok driving it with a 300 wpc amp. It’s better to have too much power and not need it than to not have enough power and the amp begins to clip or introduce distortion:
this is why i love your channel.. no bs just telling facts! like that you didt, not get an insane uplift. going to an ext amp, but that its gives. alot more headroom, and more precious handling of the speakers... as a newer hts guy, its so usefull. to get this good info, so you dont buy bs things... but actually go get, get good speakers first. i just got my first klipsch speakers (klipsch rp-502s), and they are insane. so now all my dali speakers need to go🙂
Thank you for the kind words. The other thing to realize is your Klipsch speakers are very efficient so they don’t need a lot of power to reach Reference volume. If your speakers were say 89 dB sensitivity, you would benefit a lot more from using an external amp.
@@Youthman yeah i have b&w dm603s, as my front. and its super clear, they need more power. to get at the same volume.. so i have to get, some ext amp in the future.. but my tiny harman kardon avr170, does an okay job impressivly.. just heard the klipcsh KL-650-THX and KL-550-THX, in a home theater.. and f me, that was insane. its was so clear, and still super pouncy.. made me love klipsch, more than after watching your channel
Great video Youthman! You influenced me to purchase 2 5000 watt power amps! I still want another one or two! I will wait till the end of the year, my bank account needs to recover!!!
Youthman, my my Denon AVR X4700H has 9 discrete amps - not a single shared amp. If I bought a separate amp or amps that had the same power as the AVR (125 WPC for most of them)) would I even hear any difference in sound or sound effect definition or would I need a more powerful amp? I have a 7.2.2 system with Klipsch in the front, including heights, and small Polk satellites in the back and my bedroom is my H/T and is about 13x16.
If your Denon is already loud enough for your space then save your money. Denon promise that with 5 speakers you will get 70% of that 125 wpc. So about 88 wpc with 5 speakers and more like 65-60 wpc when powering 9 speakers. I have the Denon X6700h, I also have a Emotiva BasX A3 powering my L/R/C speakers (Monitor Audio Gold, C350 Centre, and 200 L/R) plus a Emotiva BasX A4 powering my Four Monitor Audio Bronze 100 Surrounds and rear surrounds. This means the Denon only has to power the six B&W M-1 heights. The Monitor Audio are less efficient (Golds 90db and can drop to 4 Ohms, Bronze 87db, and can also drop to 4 Ohms) So in my case scenario it works, but with more efficient Klipsch speakers you might be ok. PS I also have two SVS PB1000 subs, they are good enough for me, and my neighbours. lol
@@johnbancroft5242 I'm happy with the way I got things right now, with the Tonewinner AD-8300PA amp powering my 11 speakers and the sub signals coming out of the AVR (in pre-amp mode). My amp has extra power for the LCR which makes a surprising amount of difference...don't need to bi-amp (although it would be nice to find a way to do it). My LCR, 4 heights and one of my subs are Klipsch and my 4 surrounds and the other sub are from a cheap Polk 5.1 system I bought several years ago.
I have the Onyko RZ50 which has a 9.2 channel amp @ 120 watts/channel. It is a fact that the watts go down with each speaker being driven by the amplifer. My question is are the subs part of this equation?
I bought a AV7706 Marantz and amp XPA-9. I am have a problem when running audyssey is telling me all of my speaker are out of phase. I replace my current XLR with another brand and iam still having the same issue. but when I run RCA I do not have that problem. Emotiva told me to just swap the - and + behind the amp or speaker and it will fix the issue. I dont think that would be the right way to fix this. Have you had this kind of issue with you set ups. Iam running Klipsch 4 RP-8060FA II and Center channel.
Looking to add in-ceiling speakers for atmos to an SVS ultra setup. My question is regarding speaker sensitivities: should all speakers in a system be relatively close in sensitivity, i.e., don’t pair an 85db with a 95db speaker?
Been here since surround sound, then Dolby Pro Logic when you connected it to a stereo receiver. My opinion is yes, be it good old Pro Logic or Digital sound, there is a noticeable difference in sound. Call it Dynamic Range, no distortion and perceived clear/clean sound.
Nice review question answered, as far as the speakers go it's also going to depend on the speakers ohms rather it be 4 or 8, I am sure thing will also make a difference.
For my system I'm running 4 mono block amps L,R,C,R I have effortless power at 95 db at (-30 db on the dial) With custom built L,R speakers at 98 db of sensitivity 🙂 Would love to share my system with you someday if you are ever in MN
Michael, thanks for that great explanation. I think you might have answered my question. I have a Marantz SR6012 running 7.2.2 and was wondering this exact thing. Sounds like I'm going shopping...LOL
I've got the SR7015, and made the shift to amplify the LCR with a 3 channel amp. You won't regret it. Just be careful, as in the settings, you can only select pre out for 2 channels, or all channels. No options for 3. After researching I just set it at 2, and hooked up the 3rd as a pre out, and it still works. Front 3 running off of an Anthem 325, and love it.
I think I got the wrong amplifier for my receiver lol. I have a denon 3600 and I got an outlaw 5000x to go with it. I swear I feel like the sound from my receiver was louder with more power behind it
Newb question(s) here: should watts output of amps match watts output of AVR? Put another way, would it be noticeable if you have a 300W pc amp powering LCR when your 100W AVR is powering the rest? Guess I'm asking if more watts going to speakers changes the sound signature coming from speakers or is it only the volume affected? Ultimately, I may be asking what role watts play in a home theater system. Another question, is there a situation where you need 300W (or whatever) going to surrounds or atmos? Thanks
@@ekimandersom4478 Not what I was stating. Sorry for the confusion. Notice there was no "pc" reference when talking about the AVR. The 100W AVR would split up its 100W to the remaining 4 speakers in a 7.1 so if you had that situation, the LCR would be at 100W pc but the remaining would be at say 25W pc. Does that create an issue?
@@eddiemarano9998 no issue, also like your example, the 100 watts would go to each channel , those 4 surround channels would never be driven at the same time so they would still get 100 watts when a sound is directed to one of them .
To answer your question, having more power available for some channels does not change the sound except when the extra power is needed, and you will have less distortion and compression of peaks. The volume control and the content determine how much power is sent to the speakers. If there is insufficient power, the amps will clip and distort. One thing to recognize is that it takes twice as much power to produce 3dB more output. 3dB is commonly considered the minimum change to be easily recognizable as louder. So double the power only gives you the ability to make it very slightly louder. Most of the time your amps are only averaging 1 or 2 watts of output. It is for intermittent, momentary peaks that up to 100 times as much power can be needed.
I'm currently considering getting an external amp and actually have the Denon 6700 that you used as an example at the start. Adding an amp can be problematic depending on your AVR. In my case, I have a 11.2.4 set up with the main pre running out to my Luxman c700u's theatre pass through and on to my power amp and main speakers with the Denon powering the other 9 channels. The example you gave of adding a 3 channel amp cannot be done with the Denon 6700 as the only options that are given is to have all channels running, all channels off in pre-amp mode or (as I have it) all channels running except the front main which is in pre-amp mode. My only option is to add a 9 channel amp (or 11 channel if I want to go 11.2.6) So I want to say that, "Buyer beware". Make sure your AVR is flexible in designating which channels are powered and which channel are in pre mode.
You can certainly add a 3 channel amp to the Denon 6700. Just plug the amp into the preamp outputs and don't connect speakers to the speaker outputs for the same channels. You don't have to change the internal settings.
@@gregworrel2623 I have the Denon preamp output going to the theatre bypass on a Luxman c700u preamp going to the m700u power amp feeding Magnepan 1.7s which also are used as mains in my Atmos system. What I meant to say about the 6700 is that you cannot assign individual channel to be assignable as a choice of preamp or power amp. It can run ALL channels powered, ALL channels as preamp. And as I have it, main front in PRE and ALL remaining channels driven. So if I wanted to add a Magnepan centre, which would require a mono block to drive it, I cannot assign centre channel to be a PRE and connect the mono block. This isn't a total dealbreaker for me as it's a great amp and my set up works well. I'm no engineer but I think this could be a software cost cut more than a physical limitation of the receiver. If this is true and they upgrade this in the future, the 6700 will show its true abilities. Admittedly, this affects a very small percentage of their customers. In my case it is actually relevant as I plan to upgrade the 1.7's to 3.7iRs. If I just add a planar centre and 3ch of power amp, I can go full Planar5.2.6 with the 6700 having the easy job of just driving the ceiling Atmos channels. First world problems. LOL.
You may have figured this out by now but, I have a marantz av receiver and although it's not a Denon it does use the same auddessey. I have a 3 channel amplifier connected to the LCR and although on the manual screen it doesn't show the amp assign for the center channel it does still work.
@@randelldavis578 Marantz and Denon are made , more or less, under one roof. Different badges but same people. But they do include and exclude features to differentiate between them. On the Denon, the centre will always be powered unless it is set to all channel preamp mode. It's a great AVR but the software is under whelming. I think that your method might be a extra feature to show that Marantz is the premium badge. I'm very happy with it but maybe one day I'll upgrade my surround speakers and run them on separate amps and use the AVR as a pre. That will have to wait as I'm more interested in finding dedicated subs for the Magnepans in Stereo, bypassing the AVR.
@@wetcat833 Just because the center channel is powered does not mean you cannot connect a separate amp to the center pre-outs and not use the speaker outputs. They are both active. The ability to turn off all the internal amps is a feature on new models but it is of dubious value. The amps are not doing much of anything when you don't have a speaker connected. Just use the pre-outs for the channels you want to use external amps for. Earlier Denons did not have the pre-amp only mode but they worked fine with external amps for some channels and internal amps for others. I don't know what your separate Luxman preamp is doing for you.
I am running two old beefier AVR's from Onkyo the 805 for processing LCR and the Onkyo 940 for my SVS Ultra surrounds until I get amplification. Plenty until I get Emotiva or Monolith amplification.
I have a pair of Klipsch RP 8000f and a Klipsch RP 404c for center channel for my LCR. I also have a marantz sr 6015(110wpc) with a emotiva basX 3 (140wpc). I also have a pair of Klipsch surrounds speakers and 4 Klipsch Dolby Atmos speakers. About a month ago my Klipsch SPL 150 subwoofer stopped working and I took back to the place I bought from so that they can have a look at it. That said, I had to route the LFE to the front left and right speakers and I have to say, having a external amp really made those speakers shine. I almost feel like I don't need a sub and having that extra power from the av receiver going to the rest of the speaker's really makes a difference all the way around. Thanks for the review, finally a subject that I can add my 2 cent.
Thanks so much for the video. Keep up with some of the educational topics. I’m new to learning about audio and video as I am clueless. If you are able to recommend other books or videos to learn about it, I’d appreciate it. I’m going to build my home theater in a couple of years so I want to do it right.
If you ran an SMD Amm1, it measures how much power is actually being used. People will be shocked by Halo power they're actually using in a lot of times to remove movies.
Good video, and timely for me!! But, having watched it, I'm a little confused about which amplifiers my Marantz SR6015 might support. I was thinking I might want to go with a 3 channel amp to drive the LCR, however the price of the Emotiva 5 channel BasX A5 isn't a lot more than the A3, so I thought I might go that way and drive LCR + Surroounds. So, I looked at the Marantz setup feature and I don't understand how Amp Assign set to Preamp might support different amplifiers. How do you set a 3 or a 5 channel amp up in the Marantz??? Thanks!! Great information, as always!! ~Frank
Hey Frank. Your RCA’s are always on so you can hook up any channel count, amplifier, and it will work fine. Your AVR will power whatever speakers you have connected directly to it, and the pre-outs will send signals to the external amplifiers you have connected. If you select preamp mode in the Marantz, it disables all of the internal amplification, so you will need external amplification for each channel of your system.
@@Youthman So, just to be clear, I currently have a 5.2.4 configuration, and I have 9.1 (I think, I'm not at my AVR) selected in Amp Assign. If I were to add a 5 channel amp (or 3) I'd just make the connections to the pre amp RCAs and make NO change to the Amp Assign?? The Marantz will automatically use the new 5 or 3 channel amp for those channels?? Thanks!
Absolutely correct. You only change the amp assigned to preamp mode if you’re going to power all of your speakers externally. This is supposed to turn the AVR into more of a Preamp (like you have with true separates).
@@Youthman Excellent! One last question, are those affiliate links for the Emotiva products? I'd be glad to support the channel that way if they are. Oh, and one other last question....would you recommend going with the BasX A3 or A5? The A5 is only $50 more.
Yes, most of the links in my descriptions are affiliate links. Greatly appreciate the support if you choose to use them. My vote would be for the A3 and use that to power your front left center and right speakers and let the AVR handle the surrounds and Atmos (which isn’t incredible intensive for an AVR). The A5 would be a good amp to power say 5 overhead speakers for AURO-3D setup.
Great video as always. My yamaha a6a is 9 channels, but in the configuration it only lets add an AMP of 2 channels to the surround or the front if one wants to have 11 channels processing. There is no possibility to add a 3-channel amp for LCR in these AVRs?. Only in some brands can you choose in which channels to add the amp?. Thank you.
It has pre outs for all channels? Then he will automatically send the signal to the center pre out, just disconnect the center speaker wires from the avr and connect a rca to the pre out.
@@ekimandersom4478 Thank you very much for the answer!, I thought that if it did not appear in the settings could not be done. From what I understood, the setup is only to have 11 channels. But to amplify channels that is done automatically by removing the cables from the avr and putting them in the ampo. Thanks again!.
I personally think it depends mostly on your speakers. If you have small, cheap speakers you won't notice as much as if you had bigger and especially harder to drive speakers. Driving a small bookshelf speaker with a tweeter and 4" driver on a stand as a L/R with 300w power amp would be a waste imo. A tower speaker with 2 8's a 6 1/2 and a tweeter will get you more noticeable results. I had klipsch towers with 5 1/4 inch drivers and a horn and my receiver was enough. when i went to polk rti9 towers my receiver just didn't cut it and they sounded very focused and narrow. when i hit them with 300w+, they opened up and gave me more punch.
I was just about to post until I read this, 100% agree. It does give smaller speakers more clarity, but the most noticeable difference in sound is in speakers with larger drivers. Dynamic power is applied when sudden loud effects happen and the the amplifier's wattage will briefly surpass the rated (rms) watts per channel to maintain spl (volume) across the entire bandwidth. Your towers will sound more like powered subwoofers in some cases.
That is a good point Brian. Lower frequencies are definitely harder to drive than mid range in treble frequencies. I have always had towers so I typically don’t think in terms of smaller speakers. I remember discovering my original Klipsch RF sevens dip down to somewhere under 3 ohms during certain frequencies, which is a really difficult resistance to power. I do wonder if there are some bookshelf speakers that are 4ohm rated that are difficult to drive?
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
For me, it made a noticeable difference. I was running a 7.3.2 With a Marantz 7015 receiver. I have Klipsch RF7 IIIs and an RC64 III on my front soundstage. Also have RP8000f towers In the rear. I put an Anthem 325 on the LCRs. It did wake them up. But it woke up the mid range in the rear/heights even more. I assume because the LCRs were no longer stealing all of the power LOL. Not just a headroom improvement, but improved detail too. I'd say the hungrier, higher quality speakers will yield the most noticeable difference.
I totally agree with you 👍
I have a 100wpc Onkyo receiver with Klipsch in a 5.2 setup. About 13 yrs ago I got an Emotiva xpa-3. Had to send it back due to some humming I could not get rid of. In all honesty I could not hear any difference ( minus the hum ). A better sound stage. ( maybe ) I'm thinking that an external amp may be a waste of $. With my low to moderate listening levels and the efficient speakers, It's hard to justify. Even a BasX Emotiva amp, I don't think I'll hear an improvement. Any thoughts out there ?
@@rickadams9 I think the Klipsch speakers are so efficient, that u get a lot of output and detail without a lot of power. But the highest end Klipsch speaker still will show a nice improvement, especially at increased volume. That's where the receivers and smaller wattages will start to seem stretched. Plus if u have a larger room, lack of power becomes immediately noticeable.
@@TheRealMB Thanks for your input. If I do get an amp, and at a later date decide to go with atmos, at least I'll have some of that covered. Thanks again.
@@rickadams9 Welcome! 👍
And keep in mind 100 watts vs 200 is only 3db. At loud volumes noticeable but dint expect it to be like whoa!!! I went from a 200 to 300 per channel within the same brand as I expected at loud volumes noticeable. Reg volumes not so much. I've had alot of power amps too. Dont let price make you think you are necessarily getting a better amp either. Emotiva ATI outlaw have performed as good as parasound halos, aragon. Levison, and other high end amps I've had.
To answer your question, no, I do not use a separate power amp. My living room is 13' x 14'. All the speakers in my 7.2.4 system are rated at 87dB sensitivity, and my AVR is 150 watts x 2 with a 600 watt power supply. So far, so good. I have cranked it up fairly loud and it still plays distortion-free. My sound system consists of 4 SVS Ultra Bookshelf speakers (2 for the mains and 2 for the side channels), an SVS Ultra Center speaker, 6 SVS Prime Elevation speakers (4 ceiling mounted for Dolby Atmos and 2 mounted on the back wall for the rear channels) and 2 SVS SB-3000 Subwoofers. The system is powered by a Yamaha Aventage RX-A8A 11 channel AVR connected to a Panamax M5400-PM Power Conditioner.
I am in a very similar situation as you are.... I'm NOT using a separate power amp but considered getting one:
Living room is: 12' x 13'
Layout: 7.2.4 (bookshelf speakers varying from 87db to 96db sensitivity)
AVR: Marantz SR8015
2x FL/FR: Klipsch RP-600M Bookshelf
1x Center: Klipsch RP-500C Bookshelf
4x Rears: Klipsch RP-500M Bookshelf
4x Heights: SVS Prime Elevation Bookshelf
2x Subwoofers: SVS PB-2000 Pro
@@RareFXChrisC Should a 100 watts per channel be enough for a living room? i mean it's not like your using this sound OUTDOORS
Lee that all depends on how far you sit, the sensitivity of your speakers and how loud do you listen. Some systems 100 will be sufficient while others will need much more.
UPDATE: May 2024 - My wife and I moved into a much bigger house and the first thing I noticed was my system sounded different, like it was straining. I play it loud, and my YAMAHA AVENTAGE RX-A8A was powering all 11 of my SVS speakers. I purchased a PARASOUND HALO A52 + to power my 5 bedlayer speakers and left the remaining rear channel speakers and the 4 Atmos speakers for the Yamaha to power. The improvements were AMAZING!!! MUCH better definition, MUCH better clarity, and definitely MUCH more volume. It honestly sounds like an entirely new system!!!
You nailed it!
Depending on 3 things: speaker sensitivity, desired listening volume and crossover point to subwoofers. 55 watts per channel RMS at low THD can be more than enough power. It is a multi variable equation. Short answer: it depends. Great job explaining.
If your speakers can handle a lot of power, it's worlds of difference!
Denon 6300 was my only power source for many years, now for 1 year the Arendal 1723 THX are in the house (LCR) and since 2 weeks I have an Emotiva xpa-3 Gen3 connected, it is a huge difference, in music, film....chicken skin and bleeding ears!!! I love it!!
I don't remember the receiver I had, but I added a 5x200 watt Outlaw amp about 15 or 20 years ago. The speakers were small Tannoy PBM 6.5 studio monitors. The improvement in sound quality was dramatic. The amp was a good value. I'm still using it, but I'm on my 3 processor and 3rd set of front speakers. In all fairness, the speakers were fine until my 2 year-old thought the aluminum dome mid-range was a button and kept pressing it. :(
I've never had a $6000+ flagship receiver, but compared to the amp in a sub $1000 receiver, an external amp is a must. And now, you can get a decent amp for a pretty good price.
However, If I were starting from scratch, I'd likely use 3 powered studio monitors for LCR. As an audio engineer, I really love the flat and accurate sound that studio monitors give. I designed a home theater for my Dad 20 years ago with all Genelec monitors and it's still as good as a post production sound stage - it was REALLY expensive, not a bad value when you consider how long it's been.
I have an Emotiva XPA7 hooked to an Arcam AVR11. I noticed a huge difference right away. Not only were action scenes more dynamic but the clarity was much better.
It's not day and night, but it is noticeable. When I had my theater in a 10'x12' room, the SR7012 performed well. When I went to a larger room, external amps helped. With a larger room, you tend to turn it up louder. Also, with larger amps, I seemed to have better dynamics at lower volumes. Some think I am crazy though.
Agree. Im in a 9x14 room, and i needed the amp to use my denon 3700h for a 5.2.4. Without the amp, the AVR struggled with volume and clarity. With an amp, it easily improves the sound. Strangely, in another room with a 5.0.2 my power conditioner seemed to add amplification capabilities to my 7 channel AVR. But i dont think AVR power amps are enough when you start adding surround channels or have inefficient LCR.
Lol there aren't better dynamics at 'Lower' volume with bigger amps. At higher volumes that exceed the smaller amp's limits then sure. SINAD is very important if you want extra bits of dynamic capability and the leaders in that category are topping and benchmark which aren't achieving this by adding wattage headroom.
@BobFrostV See I told you, some think I am crazy but I trust my ears
@@scottyo64 Nothing wrong with that thinking and positivity, enjoy!
@Al Better sound using decaded Amps at lower volume has more to do with a separation of consurns than watts, manufacturers limit production costs by selecting cheaper parts in AVRs, there's also an issue with crosstalk, but the biggest issue is the lack of current needed to push the signal to the peak before time runs out, this results in the clipping or rolloff of the signal, when a high powered Amp is connected, this is reduced at all volume levels, but maybe more noticeable are higher demands of volume.
Like almost everyone I started with a simple 5.1 receiver several years ago. If you have the budget, a separate pre/pro and amplifier(s) is the way to go. The power supplies in AVR’s aren’t mage to do everything they are asked to do
Adding just a stereo power amp for the front speakers is usually the most VFM upgrade as about 50% of the sound in a 5/7 channel set up is delivered by the front left and right channels. Stereo power amps are a dime a dozen, compared to 3, 4, 5 channel amps. Most of us have an older stereo power amp in our collection.
I have a high end Onkyo 9 channel theater amp (130 watts RMS per channel @ 8Ω, 4Ω stable) powering a set of vintage Pioneer HPM 1100 speakers (125 watts RMS, 6.3Ω,) The Onkyo, used alone, works well powering them, but at times, it sounded weak when also driving the 7 other speakers. The only solution is to use a second amp. I had a Pioneer Elite 4 channel amp @ 135 watts per channel, that I started using for the sole purpose of driving these large speakers. Using two class AB amps is a massive power draw, and would dim lights on loud bass notes. To solve this problem, I had to plug the second amp into a different electrical outlet. I recently bi-amped the HPM 1100s. A Crown XLS 2502 pro-amp now handles only their bottom 15-inch subwoofers. I needed an amp this powerful because I replaced the old subwoofers with two 1000-watt Skar DDX-15-D2. The Crown XLS 2502 is a class D amp. Class D amps are supper efficient, and perfect for driving subwoofers. The problem with class AB amps is, when they are on, they are always drawing a massive amount of power. The higher the wattage and number of channels it has, the more power it draws. Any amp can work as a second amp, but it may not be your best choice. Use the right amp for what you need.
.
Great simplified explanation! I've had quite a few AVRs over the years, last being a Denon 6200 + Onkyo 2 channel amp. Big fan of Denon for general purpose. I'm running 9.4.4 Atmos and in my room, the power was just about right. It got loud enough and was still clean enough to be acceptable.
After about 5 years with the last configuration, I decided to change things up and replaced everything with Emotiva gear: MC-1 13 channel processor + A6 & A7 amps (13 channels). Never having heard a system with separates before, I wasn't sure what to expect and hoped for a night and day difference. Well, as you pointed out in this video, that's not to be expected and certainly wasn't my experience. However, I think there is more fidelity with this setup, and after room correction, I like the bass response more now at the MLP.
I'm the most home theater snobby out of anybody I know and the upgrade was worth it to me. Can other people tell the difference when they come over? No. EVERYTHING sounds better than TV speakers or a sound bar. At least my immediate family all have AVRs, so they are all a step above the general public anyway.
Keep on with the great content!
I went from an AVR to three separate amps to power my 11 speakers. MUCH better sound in the detail and dynamic range.
Your speaker resistance is also a important thing to consider when choosing AVRs and power amplifiers ... A 4 ohm speaker will double the workload of a AVR amplifier compared to a 8 ohm speaker, Problem comes from that AVRs generally don't release any more power when presented with a 4 ohm load so in simple terms the AVRs power rating is halved when you have 4 ohms speakers...AVRs generally produce no extra power with 4 ohm loads , cheap to mid priced power amplifiers can generally give about 50% boost to power and expensive amplifiers can become true " double down amplifiers"...
wow none of this was touched on in the video, thanks for adding.
A good test of the Amp power is to look at the rating at 8 ohm, 4 ohm, and even 2 ohm... a good Amp will double its rating at each ohm rating, a 150 watts 8 ohm rating that doubles to 300 watts 4 ohm rating is a good Amp, but if it doubles again at 2 ohm, it's a very good amp.
@@ronmurphy4234 Only true double down amplifiers do this and they represent less than 1% of all AB amps...AVRs are the worst at this as most don't release any extra power when presented with a 4 ohm load...
@Echo Actually, it shows how AV receivers lack current, that's why you rarely see numbers except 8 ohm. People like to talk about watts, but know nothing about current, kinda like horsepower numbers, when the power people feel is from the torque... the same with watts and current.
As a home theater enthusiast for over 30 years (back to dolby pro logic). There has been two things that vastly improved my experience. The first was calibrating my channel levels using a spl meter. This was before the days of Audessy/dirac etc.
The second was adding an external power amp. The improvement in fidelity was incredible. I rarely listening at "reference" levels but the amp made it clear my avr had been struggling
My first AVR was a Pioneer Dolby Prologic 😀
@Youthman Mine was a Onkyo rack system that had Dolby pro-logic lol
That combined with my sweet JVC 4-head hi-fi VHS lol
You mostly got it right. The available wattage to each added channel is not linier, unless all speakers are equal. When using efficient (sensitive) speakers, the available wattage per speaker will not drop much. Each speaker you add to your Amp, depending on its needs, takes its share of the available wattage from the power supply. If you have power hungry vintage front speaks as I do, at louder volumes, they will suck your main amp's power supply dry. They will do this to the extent of stealing power from all of the other speakers, leaving themselves to also sound under driven, and weak. To take that load off of your main amp, run RCA cables from this theater amp’s front channel pre-outs to a power amp. This power amp will do a much better job driving these large front speakers. This greatly improves the dynamic range of the entire sound system. I have 4 amplifiers in my main sound system, including two active subwoofers.
Good info. All about caps, capacitors that is. Power supply charges them up for them bombastic events, instant power on tap. An AVR has limited room allocated to: processing, I/O, video, AND must provide speaker power ...whereas a dedicated amp in its simplest form is just a power supply and caps! Thats the efficiency and benefit, the right tool for the right job.
Great video - Only thing I'm uncertain about is due to my speakers; RF7 II L&R (101db sensitivity) and RC64 II C and their remarkable high efficiency and is an amplifier warranted. I have a Denon 6400 receiver and i'm considering getting an Emotiva XPA-5 (200 watt per channel) to get more head room and clarity but having such efficient speakers it might not be necessary. I'm running a 11 (7.2.4) speaker setup with 2 subwoofers so I'm sure the amp is diluted pushing all those speakers. I know there are alot of experts out there, maybe even someone with similar setup who can offer advice.
I have owned over 50 pair Klipsch speakers over the years. I have never experienced a night and day difference when adding external amplification at 200 W per channel or more. But I still prefer to run them in my set up. Just know the law of diminishing returns is at work.
Nice explanation!! I strongly believe in separate amps make huge difference. You need to experience it, to believe it 🙂
the guy says in the last minute of the video he didn't notice a difference with an amp...
i returned the first LX505 because the chip had gotten corrupted as a result of a speaker wire short. Got the replacement and have been very pleased. But then I ordered and connected a Tonewinner AD7300PA + and have been even more pleased and impressed, I do wish I could control the crossovers independently and the subs were separated but those aren't deal breakers. In Australia the Onkyo RZ50 was 200.00 more than the Pioneer. I've had no trouble getting into the menu. If i would warn about anything it would be about speaker connections and wire shorts, which can be potentially disastrous
Great explanation and great points!
My upgrade Path on my main system included upgrading the receiver first, then adding a 3-ch amp for the front. Already got the jamming SVS-3000PB subs, Klipsch RP Towers in the Front, and 4x Ceiling speakers for Atmos/Surround. As much as I want to upgrade, it really is enough power to crank beyond comfort.
With high efficiency main speakers, even with the LPF off on my mains, which I strongly prefer with good towers, I never notice any distortion or strain. And for music, I use stereo mode, which gives them more power anyways.
Thanks James
My old Harman/Kardon receiver is "only" rated at 75W per ch, but that's driving all 7 channel at 20-20kHz 0.07% THD and its power supply is rated at 890W, so it never struggles to power all 7.
In contrast, the receiver I'm interested in, the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 ch, is 105W/ch but its power supply is smaller at 660W. It also weighs 4lbs less. However, I'm looking at this one because it has preouts.
It's ironic you'd have to spend much more on higher models with more power and features just to get preouts.
It makes a big difference when you have quality components and speakers. Recently added the Anthem AVM with the Emotiva DR3 and XPA5,G3 and the SVS 7.3 System is so clear that it is scary. My other system has the Marantz AV7705 with the Parasound A-23+ and A-52+ with Klipsch RF-7iii’s and that is magical as well.
What speakers are you feeding with that Emotiva DR3? That is one beefy amp.
@@Smellslikegelfling - SVS Ultra Towers and Ultra Center
Sounds like an AWESOME system William! 👍
@@tonyrobles9070 - Thank you.
I noticed a difference, even with almost the same wattage, from the avr , to a external amplifiers ,it's like there is more going on, this hobby it's like you never have enough, that xpa dr3 is next on my list, after I take a breader.
Not the same wattage
Just got my first amp(emotiva xpa5 gen 3) with full klipsch 7.2.2 and honestly I haven't really noticed that much of a difference yet. I think only time you really notice a difference is when it's turned up loud.
Same with all of my Klipsch systems. Klipsch are very efficient and don’t require a lot of power. Certainly not night and day difference adding external amplification
My current set up for a 14.38x 22.86 room are: Klipsch 7.1 Ebony System with 2 RP-280F Tower Speakers, 1 RP-450C Center Speaker, 4 Klipsch RP-250S Surround Speakers, 2 BIC Platinum Series PL-200 Subwoofer, 1 Marantz SR5012 Receiver. My projector is a Optoma UHD50 True 4K Ultra High Definition DLP Home Theater Projector. Can I make it better? what other components I should add to make it sound better? Do I need subwoofer amplifier? Theater power amplifier? Any help is much appreciated. I learnt and enjoy watch lots of your video and thank you so much.
Thi s was a Fantastic explanation! Great video!
Michael, in my case (SR-8015 RF-7IIIS RC-64III) I'm thinking about either 3 monoblocks or a 3 channel amp for the reserve headroom. Which do you like more Emotiva or Monolith and why?
Not always AVR power ratings and speaker sensitivity are as described (most of the time - there is less CLEAN power, than on spec sheat and same with some speaker sensitivity - eg. Klipsch Reference Line speakers are ~ -5dB less than on paper and 4-6 ohm (still sensitive tho)
Dedicated good spec amplification makes big difference in real home theatre setup + AVP (if you can afford)
Aren't they rated at 91db?
I think they're rated at 96db.
@@robertspringer9477 On “paper” - yes maybe 96dB (just to make customers happier), but reality is different. Klipsch RP line measured in different way than most other brands. There is many forums and videos about it - please search
AVR power ratings are always rated on 1 or 2 channels driven.
On all channels it drops to 30 to 50 watt per channel max
Great video, and agree with the content. However, there are some A/V receivers that do have dedicated power to each channel, that the wattage does not get reduced as you add more speakers. Each speaker output is dedicated, and the power wattage is not split up. My JBL A/V receiver is that way, and is not based on the "2 Channel" configuration as some amplifiers like to use. I'm able to have my surround speakers just as loud or just as much power as my front Right, Left, Center speakers. All speakers get the same output wattage, regardless if there's 3 speakers or 5 speakers connected. But you have to watch which A/V receivers actually do this. Needless to say, this makes for a very large, and heavy A/V receiver that needs plenty of "air".
I currently have a Denon X4700h AV receiver, which says it has nine different power amps rated at 200 watts each. To me, this means each speaker is getting 200 watts. Please correct me if I am wrong. I want to know if that is correct or if I should add a separate amplifier to push my Definitive Technology DM80 LR and DM30 C speakers. I have been looking at a seven and nine channel Monoprice Monolith as well as Summit HiFi amp. Thanks in advance.
@@robham1976 I bet thats at 2 channels driven. Hafta look at the fine print.
Thanks for the excellent explanation. Not alot of people know that. I like also that like emotiva they show that their amps show that all channels are driven with their amps.
Thank you Michael.
Glad you enjoyed the video Sean
Good summary. Answer is "maybe". I like Michael's point at the end that other components likely come first - good subwoofers, speakers, and addressing the room acoustics will definitely be more important before worrying about external amplification.
When using external amps, does the preamp voltage decrease if you go from front 3 LCR to 5 or 7 channels, all running at the same time? Can an AVR fully maintain its voltage so that the power amp runs at its full potential when all channels are driven at different volumes?
Bought an Emotiva XPA5-Gen3 a while ago. At this time I had a Denon X4400 and a Klipsch RP 5.1.4 System (280F, 450C, 160M). Long story short, I returned it. I'm usually listening at - 20 to -15. I wasn't able to notice a difference at all.
I had it once that I thought the Denon went out of juice, this was whilst listening music at +15 in All Channel Stereo, but this was more or less just a test because thats way above "apartment listening levels".
To be fair, I haven't tried the Emotiva at this volume, because it would be an unrealistic scenario (for me) anyway.
Youthman is looking good. Can't believe you are a grandpa♥️♥️
I did notice a slight improvement when I added an Emotiva XPA-2 to off load my L and R speakers. I should probably get a 3 channel one day to power the center channel as well.
Just add a mono amp
Can you do a video setting up two external amps one for main sound stage and one for atmos and in ceiling speaker?
Great video Michael! I was just thinking last week how I missed seeing these types of videos on your channel!
My running Tonewinner 7300 for bed layers and BasX 3 for front heights and it’s great
Hey hey.. and for music. Make a amblifier a diference?
Very happy with my Emotiva A3 powering LCR (and LR in preout mode) with my Denon x3700h. I can definitely hear an improvement. External amplification is a must is using 4ohm speakers in my opinion. Recently added bass traps to first reflection points along side walls. Clarity further improved.
Wouldn't having 4 ohms make it less necessary to run an external amp? They technically require less power than 6 or 8ohms.
@@frostman9661 it requires double the wattage which may overtax the AVR. AVR specs usually don't include performance specs at 4ohms.
@@bigdreams5554 I feel that is incorrect. Ohm is a measure of resistance. When an amp gives 8ohm and 4 ohms ratings, there's a reason why it states higher power. E.g. the BasX a3 delivers 140 into 8ohms, and 200 into 4ohms. There's less resistance so more of the power actually reaches the drivers. The reason why some avrs don't have 4ohm ratings is because it's more difficult in the sense of stability and quality. It's not a matter of not enough power. It's the opposite.
@@frostman9661 you right about power. It does require more current , which some AVRs may have difficulty providing consistently, or without generating a lot of heat. I found a link on audioholics website describing this but my post gets deleted when i try to include it here.
If you have a less powerful AVR that struggles to keep up to yiur system, the best option would be to upgrade your AVR before adding dedicated amps as your current AVR with low power is alao likely to be shy on quality processing capabilities. A cheap AVR with dedicated separate amps will not sound nearly as good a a decent AVR, simply based on technology and processing abilities. So spent $1500-$2000 on a solid AVR instead of the same on solid amps to drive a 10 year old AVR with low power supply or a current $500 cheap AVR. Amps may give you more power but that ia only beneficial if your AVR does a good job processing it
There are no cheap AVRs with preamp outputs for a separate amp unless you are talking used.
@@gregworrel2623 I was referring to used or old, ones that were mid range but many years old that were a number of generations behind on technology. This does not for every situation, just moat of them. If you had a Rotel, Anthem, Arcam ir similar, they were top of the line as as long as they provide you with the codecs you are happy with, then they can produce quality sound. If you had a a Denon or Yamaha at the entry level of allowing external amplification and it is 7-10 years old, you would be better of getting a new AVR instead of adding am external amp
I have a general question about amps. Does it matter what brand you get? I have a Pioneer LX505 for a 7.1 setup that I plan to eventually move to a 7.1.4 setup. I was looking at either getting a monolith 2ch amp to power height speakers or maybe 3ch amp for the LCR speakers. I have Klipsch speakers all around. Any issues with monolith amps from monoprice?
Yeah, it also helps to do a little research using a speaker power calculator. With my MLP distance, speaker sensitivity, etc Turns out at the levels I normally listen to, it was sucking back a whopping....3 watts per channel. At -15db on the dial it was maybe 20 watts per channel. At the very most at uncomfortable levels. Confirmed with killawatt at the wall. Which a decent AVR can handle just fine. It made zero difference sonically, added a small hum to the system that was fun to figure out....but my AVR runs coolers.
So yeah, use a speaker power calculator first after determining what spl levels you want to see what power you're using or need.
I agree with this advice. Never listen to an audio sales person telling you you need 100-200W without sound reason. I use a wopping 0.045W(nominal) per channel is for good loud listening with my 26hz+ speakers. Very loud is 0.5W peaks. Revel says my speaker is about 93db/Watt @ 3ft.
Using 4/10’s of 1 watt on a 93dB sensitive speaker is loud on your system. I’m calling bluff on that one. I would be curious how you came to that conclusion.
@@Youthman Looks like some miscalculation there. But 86dB at 10 feet in room only takes 1 watt with 93dB sensitive speakers. So it depends what he means by "loud." In my opinion always better to get higher sensitivity speakers rather than more power.
I have always owned high sensitivity speakers myself.
@@Youthman My perception of loudness must different than yours by a wide margin. I think 0.045W makes talking actors sound only as loud as real people talking in my room from 9ft. Half a watt is probably in like a man loudly yelling "aaah" in the passenger seat of a car with you. Don't forget to calculate the 2nd speaker also at 0.5 Watts. You can feel some bass hit in your chest and feel the floor vibrating. 5-12W per speaker is like standing in front of DJ speakers at a club. The closet doors, bedroom door and stuff is jittering noisily and it feels like all the air in the room is vibrant and alive. I had a friend over and the Partition song by rihana with the extended beginning, at about 5-12W had him touching the ground because of the vibration and air pressure shouting, "this is too much!" over and over. The room is over the garage. Here is a picture. I can tell my watt usage because of my Mcintosh amp shows it. Also, you can tell from the closet doors the scale of things and the 85" tv. The roof is also at angles reducing the air volume in the room.
ibb.co/album/ZN7Cqr
Hi Sir
I recently bought Marantz SR8015 receiver and planning on buying a pair of RP-6000F and a RP-504C for my first home theatre build. I see that the sensitivity for these speakers is 96dB. So, does it mean if I sit at 4m from the speakers, I still get 84dB using just 1W, given that for each doubling of distance it takes 6dB away? Or to put it other way, does it just take 16W to raise the dropped volume to 96dB again at 4m, having to double the wattage for each 3dB gain to compensate for the lost 12dB? And I don't think I'll ever go beyond 85dB during movie watching. If that's the case, is my SR8015 more than enough for my use case?
How about for those of us that use our home theater system for vinyl as well and want a great sound?
I'm going to buy the Tonewinner AD-8300 amp this weekend. Any advice on what brand or style of RCA cables to use as interconnects? It seems I can only buy them in singles or pairs, but I need about a dozen of them +-1 ( I have 9 speakers and 2 subs). Can I use my subwoofer cables as 2 of my interconnects or wouldn't they be compatible?
Speaker efficiency is a huge deal too...I make it a point to buy very efficient speakers so my amp doesn't have to work as hard to achieve the desired volume level with the same amount of power...most of the speakers in my system have a sensitivity >95db...and it makes a huge difference
Unless you have Klipsch then it is actually lower than they say.
Correct Crossover also benefits the balance av receiver power.
Whatever camera, lens, and lighting you are using looks very professional
I have a different reason for thinking of adding an amp but I'm not sure how to do it or if it's even worth doing. I have two pairs of outdoor speakers that I want to be able to control the volume from my AVR (Marantz SR7005). Will adding an amp allow me to do this? If so, what type (4 ch/5ch, etc) should I consider? I'm hoping I described this well enough for someone to answer this.
MY question is (As I just bought 4 Ch amp yesterday) Why am I adding a $1500 Emotive power amp to run my 3 mains if I bought a 140 watt AVR for $2500? I bought my 4 ch's to run all the other channels and let my AVR run my 3 fronts.
Typically an external amplifier will provide more power than the internal amps of an AVR.
Thank You. This one question asked and your answers provided has help me and a host of others greatly.
I've got a Marantz Cinema 50, running a 5.1 system and I use a Parasound 2 channel amp on the left and right speakers. I think it makes a more noticeable difference on music listening and the sound tracks for movies. I'm considering adding another amp to power the center, just not sure if it will make much of difference on the center channel output. Great Video!
Your AVR gives more power to your center because of the seperate amp.
What is ideal room size for going for extra Power Amplifier is ideal (Range of size )?
There are more factors to consider like speaker sensitivity, seating distance and volume levels
I need help I have have a set of kef reference model 4 this is 4ohms @ 400w what power we need to drive them please?
The KEF website says “Amplifier requirements 50 - 200W”
Would you recommend the Emotiva xpa gen3 dr3 or the mca325 gen 2 3 channel, I like them both but overall what is the better of the two? Thanks
I have 2 boxes with a pair of EV 15's in each box. Both boxes have a hi freq horn on top. These were originally placed behind the 13'x28' screen. I also have 8 EV2-10 speakers. Originally these were driven by (3) QSC 2600A amps and a JSD-60 processor. I'm a noob and I've learned you need a computer interface to manage this system so I probably won't be able to replicate it. I bought out a closed theater and I am just looking to power this system up for outside use in the backyard. The Subs are 500 watt each. That's about all I know. What would you suggest?
Thanks for all the work you do to try to teach us about sound and audio. I believe i have watched every video you have done. I have learned alot through your videos.
I’m grateful the channel has helped you along your journey.
I totally agree. Since I added an Emotiva DR3 to my system my Marantz 7013 plays much clearer at loud volumes. I heard it right away.
I have a onkyo tx nr 555 avr and 7 onkyo 980 thx speaks when I bought them onkyos and evert retail store said they are 6 ohms so I thought ok my avr does 140 watts 6 ohms turns out they are actuily 8 ohm speakers in that case my avr only does 80 watts 2ch driven at 8% distortion . Now my onkyo 555 does not have pre outs it only has zone 2 witch I can't use for 7.2 or atmos with the other 5 speakers . Is there anyway I can get more power to my speakers and still benefit all my processing from my avr . ?
Another question (after re-watching this video)...right now, I have all my speakers - 7 bed and 2 heights - hooked up to the amp via pre-outs. Would it be advantageous to reconnect everything except the LCR from the amp and put them back into the AVR? That way, I'd get more power from each channel, with the AVR handling 6 and the amp handling 3, or would I lose the extra fidelity of using the AVR as a processor?
A lot will depend on the sensitivity rating of your LCR. Typically you will get more power from the Emotiva than you will by only using theres of the channels on your AVR.
@@Youthman The AVR (X4700) puts out about 125WPC into all channels, where the amp (Tonewinner AD-8300) puts out about 2x to the LCR and about 105 WPC to each of the other ones with all channels driven. I did notice a difference in my LCR on the amp, not in volume, but in clarity and punch. In stereo mode, I get even more out of the amp's LCR. My LCR are Klipsch RP-600Miis.
Try it both ways and see what sounds best. There’s no right or wrong answer.
@@Youthman In the end I decided not to change all the wires around again...for one thing, my shelf is too heavy to move anymore on my carpet (glass and metal) and I figured, using an 11-channel am for 3 speakers kind of defeats the purpose :) Thanks for your responses, though!
Hi, Youthman I have a Demon AVR-4700 and klipsch speakers 5 series which power amplifier is better. (PARASOUND,ATI,EMOTIVA). kindly suggest.
“Would have gone”, not “would have went”. Adding an Emotiva amp if equal or (preferably) higher wattage to replace an AVR will almost always result in an easily appreciated improvement in the sound.
What about subwoofer amplification what do you recommend? I've been looking at GSG subs but to get plate amps is so expensive. I wonder if passive is the way to go.
hi, i need your advice please
my setup is
yamaha rx-a2080,
yamaha NS-777 L/R
yamaha NS-C444 CENTER
yamaha NS-333 x 6 speakers,
in a 5.2.4 setup
i also have
ROTEL RB-993
ROTEL RMB-1066
i can add another pair of speakers NS-333 and let the A.I. deside what is best when i watch a movie and what speaker set not to use.
will this work?
will my system be better with the use of the ROTEL power amps? or without
Hello Youthman, I need your advice. I use Marantz sr8012 with Klipsch 7.2.4 set up. Just now I want to boost up my front LR use Parasound 2250 and I am beginner on this. What I do, I simply take off these 2 front LR from AVR and put it to Parasound, connect preout LR to Parasound input and put the trigger on. when I'd like to set in Amp Assign, I can't find the pre amplifier like what I see others do with SR8015. But when I play the receiver with the above set up, I can hear sound from these 2 front LR. My question is, what did I do wrong in the set up? or simply SR8012 actually don't need external amplifier. thanks in advanced.
Your preouts are always on so as soon as you connect the Marantz to the Parasound using RCA preouts and speaker wire from Parasound to your speakers, you are good to go
When adding an external amp, do you get the sound characteristics from the receiver or the amp?
From the AVR or Processor. Most people would not be able to tell the difference between amps in a double blind test unless maybe it was a tube amp because they intentionally add distortion to the sound.
I have any Motiva, five channel 200 W or channel amp
The Amp can only ampfly what's sent to it, but there's less chance of noise being introduced by crosstalk from internal components processing the signal, noise can still be introduced by cables. Any amplifier can appear to affect the sound by running short of power (current) and clipping or rolling off the signal, this can result with damage to the speaker.
But why do some people say when they add a dedicated amplifier they don't hear any difference? Actually I have two questions the second question is why do a AVR only put out let's say 140 x 2 speakers when it's a Home Theater receiver??👍🏽✌🏽
Answer to your first question, often times it depends on things like the sensitivity of your speakers. If you have high sensitivity speakers, you were here less difference by adding power because it’s already taking very little wattage to get your speakers to reference volume.
Answer to your second question, it’s not that AVR’s are 140 W x 2 that’s just the power rating with only two channels driven. That same AVR rated powering all nine or 11 speakers might drop down to only 55 watts per channel.
Great, informative video. Is it purely down to higher volumes then (i did notice i had to increase the volume after adding 4 atmos speakers)? But regarding your analogy with the cars, does this mean timings can be affected also🤔
It is all about control.
The power has to control the conus from the speakers, in other words, more power will control the movements of the speaker tighter.
Ideally you want 1,5 times more power than your speakers max rating
So for a 150 watt RMS speaker you should want 200 watt rms Amp.
Youthman, great video. However, there are a couple of very important specs when rating amplifiers that go unnoticed by many people. Looking at the rated watts with 2 speakers driven is the first part but at what ohms? Many amps aren't happy at say 4ohms where many smaller or expensive speakers live e.g. bookies and tweeters. And at what frequency range is the rating? The latter being the slick marketing companies do. If the ratings aren't at the full spectrum of 20hz to 20khz it's snake oil. Period. Many list their power ratings at 1khz ! Even with adding a sub, an amp still needs power to drive the mids and bass frequencies above 80hz. And if you're running your front speakers at full range...smh you got played ! So my advice, do your homework with whichever component you start with when building your home theater and make sure they play nice with each other. Finally, and I totally agree with Youthman, get a good power amplifier. At least a 3 channel or more but make sure your AVR has pre-outs before you buy one. ✊🏼
The short short answer is yes...ish (slightly noticeable most times depending on power/speaker needs/listening volume).
More real RMS power = more voice coil motor control = thus lowering distortion (at higher volumes).
Hey Michael - have you seen the Tonewinner AD-8300PA ? This amp has 3x300W and 8x155W - I wonder what you think about that?
Only Tonewinner I have heard was in my latest Home Theater Tour.
@@Youthman ok - i will watch it - not sure if tonewinnners Watt performence specifications are true - sounds too good for me
So how many watts is enough T for an 7.2.4 system ?? That’s what I have with the marantz 6014 and a 2 channel amp
That would purely depends on what speakers you want to drive .
But how do you figure out how much power you need for the speakers you have.
Manufacturer website will typically show how much power they recommend. I’m ok using twice their max.
So if a speaker is rated up to 150 watts continuous, I’m ok driving it with a 300 wpc amp. It’s better to have too much power and not need it than to not have enough power and the amp begins to clip or introduce distortion:
@@Youthman thanks so much. Never messed with amps before. Trying to figure out what I need has been daunting.
this is why i love your channel.. no bs just telling facts! like that you didt, not get an insane uplift. going to an ext amp, but that its gives. alot more headroom, and more precious handling of the speakers... as a newer hts guy, its so usefull. to get this good info, so you dont buy bs things...
but actually go get, get good speakers first. i just got my first klipsch speakers (klipsch rp-502s), and they are insane. so now all my dali speakers need to go🙂
Thank you for the kind words. The other thing to realize is your Klipsch speakers are very efficient so they don’t need a lot of power to reach Reference volume.
If your speakers were say 89 dB sensitivity, you would benefit a lot more from using an external amp.
@@Youthman yeah i have b&w dm603s, as my front. and its super clear, they need more power. to get at the same volume.. so i have to get, some ext amp in the future.. but my tiny harman kardon avr170, does an okay job impressivly..
just heard the klipcsh KL-650-THX and KL-550-THX, in a home theater.. and f me, that was insane. its was so clear, and still super pouncy.. made me love klipsch, more than after watching your channel
Great video Youthman! You influenced me to purchase 2 5000 watt power amps! I still want another one or two! I will wait till the end of the year, my bank account needs to recover!!!
Youthman, my my Denon AVR X4700H has 9 discrete amps - not a single shared amp. If I bought a separate amp or amps that had the same power as the AVR (125 WPC for most of them)) would I even hear any difference in sound or sound effect definition or would I need a more powerful amp? I have a 7.2.2 system with Klipsch in the front, including heights, and small Polk satellites in the back and my bedroom is my H/T and is about 13x16.
If your Denon is already loud enough for your space then save your money. Denon promise that with 5 speakers you will get 70% of that 125 wpc. So about 88 wpc with 5 speakers and more like 65-60 wpc when powering 9 speakers. I have the Denon X6700h, I also have a Emotiva BasX A3 powering my L/R/C speakers (Monitor Audio Gold, C350 Centre, and 200 L/R) plus a Emotiva BasX A4 powering my Four Monitor Audio Bronze 100 Surrounds and rear surrounds. This means the Denon only has to power the six B&W M-1 heights. The Monitor Audio are less efficient (Golds 90db and can drop to 4 Ohms, Bronze 87db, and can also drop to 4 Ohms) So in my case scenario it works, but with more efficient Klipsch speakers you might be ok. PS I also have two SVS PB1000 subs, they are good enough for me, and my neighbours. lol
@@johnbancroft5242 I'm happy with the way I got things right now, with the Tonewinner AD-8300PA amp powering my 11 speakers and the sub signals coming out of the AVR (in pre-amp mode). My amp has extra power for the LCR which makes a surprising amount of difference...don't need to bi-amp (although it would be nice to find a way to do it). My LCR, 4 heights and one of my subs are Klipsch and my 4 surrounds and the other sub are from a cheap Polk 5.1 system I bought several years ago.
I have the Onyko RZ50 which has a 9.2 channel amp @ 120 watts/channel. It is a fact that the watts go down with each speaker being driven by the amplifer. My question is are the subs part of this equation?
No, subwoofers have there own amplifier.
Correct, the .2 sub outputs on the AVR are non-powered. Your subs have their own built in amp so they do use any of the 120w/ch
Is there a way to add an amp if your AVR doesn’t have pre outs?
yes
I bought a AV7706 Marantz and amp XPA-9. I am have a problem when running audyssey is telling me all of my speaker are out of phase. I replace my current XLR with another brand and iam still having the same issue. but when I run RCA I do not have that problem. Emotiva told me to just swap the - and + behind the amp or speaker and it will fix the issue. I dont think that would be the right way to fix this. Have you had this kind of issue with you set ups. Iam running Klipsch 4 RP-8060FA II and Center channel.
Lots of discussion about it in this thread - emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/55385/phase-outs-sources-speakers-important?page=1#post-999619
Would you recommend just switching the speaker cables to make it not out of phase or any other amp you might recommend that is at least 9 channels
Looking to add in-ceiling speakers for atmos to an SVS ultra setup. My question is regarding speaker sensitivities: should all speakers in a system be relatively close in sensitivity, i.e., don’t pair an 85db with a 95db speaker?
You can adjust the volume of each channel individually to counteract sensitivity differences. Auto calibration will also do this for you.
No the sensitivity does not have to be the same or near.
Been here since surround sound, then Dolby Pro Logic when you connected it to a stereo receiver. My opinion is yes, be it good old Pro Logic or Digital sound, there is a noticeable difference in sound. Call it Dynamic Range, no distortion and perceived clear/clean sound.
Nice review question answered, as far as the speakers go it's also going to depend on the speakers ohms rather it be 4 or 8, I am sure thing will also make a difference.
Doesn't klipsch lie about the speaker sensitivity rating how dose that make it more useful
For my system I'm running 4 mono block amps L,R,C,R I have effortless power at 95 db at (-30 db on the dial) With custom built L,R speakers at 98 db of sensitivity 🙂 Would love to share my system with you someday if you are ever in MN
Michael, thanks for that great explanation. I think you might have answered my question. I have a Marantz SR6012 running 7.2.2 and was wondering this exact thing. Sounds like I'm going shopping...LOL
I've got the SR7015, and made the shift to amplify the LCR with a 3 channel amp. You won't regret it. Just be careful, as in the settings, you can only select pre out for 2 channels, or all channels. No options for 3. After researching I just set it at 2, and hooked up the 3rd as a pre out, and it still works. Front 3 running off of an Anthem 325, and love it.
I think I got the wrong amplifier for my receiver lol. I have a denon 3600 and I got an outlaw 5000x to go with it. I swear I feel like the sound from my receiver was louder with more power behind it
Has anyone here tried using some of the preamp outputs to send the signal to powered speakers? Instead of running the signal to additional power amps.
Thank you for your detailed answer.
Newb question(s) here: should watts output of amps match watts output of AVR? Put another way, would it be noticeable if you have a 300W pc amp powering LCR when your 100W AVR is powering the rest? Guess I'm asking if more watts going to speakers changes the sound signature coming from speakers or is it only the volume affected? Ultimately, I may be asking what role watts play in a home theater system. Another question, is there a situation where you need 300W (or whatever) going to surrounds or atmos? Thanks
No AVR gives 100 watt per channel.
@@ekimandersom4478 Not what I was stating. Sorry for the confusion. Notice there was no "pc" reference when talking about the AVR. The 100W AVR would split up its 100W to the remaining 4 speakers in a 7.1 so if you had that situation, the LCR would be at 100W pc but the remaining would be at say 25W pc. Does that create an issue?
@@eddiemarano9998 no issue, also like your example, the 100 watts would go to each channel , those 4 surround channels would never be driven at the same time so they would still get 100 watts when a sound is directed to one of them .
To answer your question, having more power available for some channels does not change the sound except when the extra power is needed, and you will have less distortion and compression of peaks. The volume control and the content determine how much power is sent to the speakers. If there is insufficient power, the amps will clip and distort. One thing to recognize is that it takes twice as much power to produce 3dB more output. 3dB is commonly considered the minimum change to be easily recognizable as louder. So double the power only gives you the ability to make it very slightly louder. Most of the time your amps are only averaging 1 or 2 watts of output. It is for intermittent, momentary peaks that up to 100 times as much power can be needed.
@@gregworrel2623 Off to the "Amp" store!! Thanks
I'm currently considering getting an external amp and actually have the Denon 6700 that you used as an example at the start. Adding an amp can be problematic depending on your AVR. In my case, I have a 11.2.4 set up with the main pre running out to my Luxman c700u's theatre pass through and on to my power amp and main speakers with the Denon powering the other 9 channels.
The example you gave of adding a 3 channel amp cannot be done with the Denon 6700 as the only options that are given is to have all channels running, all channels off in pre-amp mode or (as I have it) all channels running except the front main which is in pre-amp mode. My only option is to add a 9 channel amp (or 11 channel if I want to go 11.2.6) So I want to say that, "Buyer beware". Make sure your AVR is flexible in designating which channels are powered and which channel are in pre mode.
You can certainly add a 3 channel amp to the Denon 6700. Just plug the amp into the preamp outputs and don't connect speakers to the speaker outputs for the same channels. You don't have to change the internal settings.
@@gregworrel2623 I have the Denon preamp output going to the theatre bypass on a Luxman c700u preamp going to the m700u power amp feeding Magnepan 1.7s which also are used as mains in my Atmos system. What I meant to say about the 6700 is that you cannot assign individual channel to be assignable as a choice of preamp or power amp. It can run ALL channels powered, ALL channels as preamp. And as I have it, main front in PRE and ALL remaining channels driven. So if I wanted to add a Magnepan centre, which would require a mono block to drive it, I cannot assign centre channel to be a PRE and connect the mono block. This isn't a total dealbreaker for me as it's a great amp and my set up works well. I'm no engineer but I think this could be a software cost cut more than a physical limitation of the receiver. If this is true and they upgrade this in the future, the 6700 will show its true abilities. Admittedly, this affects a very small percentage of their customers. In my case it is actually relevant as I plan to upgrade the 1.7's to 3.7iRs. If I just add a planar centre and 3ch of power amp, I can go full Planar5.2.6 with the 6700 having the easy job of just driving the ceiling Atmos channels. First world problems. LOL.
You may have figured this out by now but, I have a marantz av receiver and although it's not a Denon it does use the same auddessey. I have a 3 channel amplifier connected to the LCR and although on the manual screen it doesn't show the amp assign for the center channel it does still work.
@@randelldavis578 Marantz and Denon are made , more or less, under one roof. Different badges but same people. But they do include and exclude features to differentiate between them. On the Denon, the centre will always be powered unless it is set to all channel preamp mode. It's a great AVR but the software is under whelming. I think that your method might be a extra feature to show that Marantz is the premium badge. I'm very happy with it but maybe one day I'll upgrade my surround speakers and run them on separate amps and use the AVR as a pre. That will have to wait as I'm more interested in finding dedicated subs for the Magnepans in Stereo, bypassing the AVR.
@@wetcat833 Just because the center channel is powered does not mean you cannot connect a separate amp to the center pre-outs and not use the speaker outputs. They are both active. The ability to turn off all the internal amps is a feature on new models but it is of dubious value. The amps are not doing much of anything when you don't have a speaker connected. Just use the pre-outs for the channels you want to use external amps for. Earlier Denons did not have the pre-amp only mode but they worked fine with external amps for some channels and internal amps for others. I don't know what your separate Luxman preamp is doing for you.
I am running two old beefier AVR's from Onkyo the 805 for processing LCR and the Onkyo 940 for my SVS Ultra surrounds until I get amplification. Plenty until I get Emotiva or Monolith amplification.
I own the denon 6500 and it has hardly any headroom deos any one know if the denon 8500ha has good enough headroom
I have a pair of Klipsch RP 8000f and a Klipsch RP 404c for center channel for my LCR. I also have a marantz sr 6015(110wpc) with a emotiva basX 3 (140wpc). I also have a pair of Klipsch surrounds speakers and 4 Klipsch Dolby Atmos speakers. About a month ago my Klipsch SPL 150 subwoofer stopped working and I took back to the place I bought from so that they can have a look at it. That said, I had to route the LFE to the front left and right speakers and I have to say, having a external amp really made those speakers shine. I almost feel like I don't need a sub and having that extra power from the av receiver going to the rest of the speaker's really makes a difference all the way around. Thanks for the review, finally a subject that I can add my 2 cent.
Thanks so much for the video. Keep up with some of the educational topics. I’m new to learning about audio and video as I am clueless. If you are able to recommend other books or videos to learn about it, I’d appreciate it. I’m going to build my home theater in a couple of years so I want to do it right.
If you ran an SMD Amm1, it measures how much power is actually being used. People will be shocked by Halo power they're actually using in a lot of times to remove movies.
Good video, and timely for me!! But, having watched it, I'm a little confused about which amplifiers my Marantz SR6015 might support. I was thinking I might want to go with a 3 channel amp to drive the LCR, however the price of the Emotiva 5 channel BasX A5 isn't a lot more than the A3, so I thought I might go that way and drive LCR + Surroounds. So, I looked at the Marantz setup feature and I don't understand how Amp Assign set to Preamp might support different amplifiers. How do you set a 3 or a 5 channel amp up in the Marantz??? Thanks!! Great information, as always!! ~Frank
Hey Frank. Your RCA’s are always on so you can hook up any channel count, amplifier, and it will work fine. Your AVR will power whatever speakers you have connected directly to it, and the pre-outs will send signals to the external amplifiers you have connected.
If you select preamp mode in the Marantz, it disables all of the internal amplification, so you will need external amplification for each channel of your system.
@@Youthman So, just to be clear, I currently have a 5.2.4 configuration, and I have 9.1 (I think, I'm not at my AVR) selected in Amp Assign. If I were to add a 5 channel amp (or 3) I'd just make the connections to the pre amp RCAs and make NO change to the Amp Assign?? The Marantz will automatically use the new 5 or 3 channel amp for those channels?? Thanks!
Absolutely correct. You only change the amp assigned to preamp mode if you’re going to power all of your speakers externally. This is supposed to turn the AVR into more of a Preamp (like you have with true separates).
@@Youthman Excellent! One last question, are those affiliate links for the Emotiva products? I'd be glad to support the channel that way if they are. Oh, and one other last question....would you recommend going with the BasX A3 or A5? The A5 is only $50 more.
Yes, most of the links in my descriptions are affiliate links. Greatly appreciate the support if you choose to use them. My vote would be for the A3 and use that to power your front left center and right speakers and let the AVR handle the surrounds and Atmos (which isn’t incredible intensive for an AVR).
The A5 would be a good amp to power say 5 overhead speakers for AURO-3D setup.
Great video as always.
My yamaha a6a is 9 channels, but in the configuration it only lets add an AMP of 2 channels to the surround or the front if one wants to have 11 channels processing.
There is no possibility to add a 3-channel amp for LCR in these AVRs?. Only in some brands can you choose in which channels to add the amp?. Thank you.
It has pre outs for all channels?
Then he will automatically send the signal to the center pre out, just disconnect the center speaker wires from the avr and connect a rca to the pre out.
@@ekimandersom4478 Thank you very much for the answer!, I thought that if it did not appear in the settings could not be done. From what I understood, the setup is only to have 11 channels. But to amplify channels that is done automatically by removing the cables from the avr and putting them in the ampo. Thanks again!.
@@Hederick_ There wouldn’t be any point to put pre outs if you couldn’t use them.
I personally think it depends mostly on your speakers. If you have small, cheap speakers you won't notice as much as if you had bigger and especially harder to drive speakers. Driving a small bookshelf speaker with a tweeter and 4" driver on a stand as a L/R with 300w power amp would be a waste imo. A tower speaker with 2 8's a 6 1/2 and a tweeter will get you more noticeable results. I had klipsch towers with 5 1/4 inch drivers and a horn and my receiver was enough. when i went to polk rti9 towers my receiver just didn't cut it and they sounded very focused and narrow. when i hit them with 300w+, they opened up and gave me more punch.
I was just about to post until I read this, 100% agree. It does give smaller speakers more clarity, but the most noticeable difference in sound is in speakers with larger drivers. Dynamic power is applied when sudden loud effects happen and the the amplifier's wattage will briefly surpass the rated (rms) watts per channel to maintain spl (volume) across the entire bandwidth. Your towers will sound more like powered subwoofers in some cases.
That is a good point Brian. Lower frequencies are definitely harder to drive than mid range in treble frequencies. I have always had towers so I typically don’t think in terms of smaller speakers. I remember discovering my original Klipsch RF sevens dip down to somewhere under 3 ohms during certain frequencies, which is a really difficult resistance to power. I do wonder if there are some bookshelf speakers that are 4ohm rated that are difficult to drive?