Heads-Up: I am already updated the Quazii Season 2 M+ profile via PTR testing. The profile will be released to everyone in time for Season 2 - stay tuned to discord #announcement for the release - join here discord.gg/quazii | I will also update the website as usual at quazii.com/the-war-within-plater-nameplates-profile/ | Class WAs will also be updated for Season 2.
They won't change a thing or if they do they ill change stuff that we are not asking for but it ill help m+ to become easier but what we are asking for they won't.
In my opinion the biggest mistake they made with season 1 is the recasting after stuns. this means every group needs to have 3 good interrupts with comms or 4-5 with pugs. This has completely destroyed all diversity in teams. and yes stun nerfs were warranted, but not like this.
@@slymcfly123 yea cc nerfs were warranted, but as it is currently, you cannot run 2 casters without a prot paladin. and even then you still want the prot pala for the interrupts
From a healer pov I’d like two things: 1. 100%->10% hits on a tank when they don’t mitigate is fine (because that’s part of playing a tank) but the whole group doesn’t need random ones all the time. Slow damage and healing is more fun than constantly stressing over having enough instants. 2. Can all healers just be able to dispel poison/disease/curse on their dispel magic ability? Having dps being able to only do one type is fine but (for example) running Grim batol and having to manually out heal all the curses because I didn’t pick a curse dispelling class wasn’t fun.
Making classes and specs even more similar is not a good direction. But maybe all classes should have some dispell, and dispelling should not be a healer task. They have enough on their board already.
@@daviddudas5392 While I agree that we shouldn't push to have classes be more similar. It was a bad call on the Devs end to make a Curse or Poison that deadly. You immediately shutout the majority of classes when something is balanced around that. Rather, if there's a important dispel mechanic. It should ALWAYS be Magic. Flavor dispels could fall into the Curse, Poison, Disease.
100% to 10% without mitigation sure but you should Not need to use Defensive cooldown on every pack in the world. Active mitigation exist spesifically for that. The tank should fall low if they let mitigation fall off however you should not need active mitigation and on top of that have defensive cooldown used just to not get one shot.
Blizzard can "admit" all they want but until they actually make real changes none of this matters. And based on the current state of the PTR it sure doesn't look like they are responding to a lot of the criticism. Some, yes, but majority remains untouched.
They reworked the affixes because they admit that it was bad. Now they admit it again. What do you want from them? As soon as you have something to complain about they change it? It's not that simple. Small changes are possible, which they already did. You should stop watching asmongold or if you don't, stop living in the past.
I mean I’m sry but you are just unreasonable. From DF, they listen and changes things, the same has happened in the war within with the siren isle and the anniversary event. Some things take longer to change. I would 100 % agree with you if there were other mmos with more frequent patches and changes but they don’t exist.
@@ssv-y2q I mean they probably think that and don’t want players to go down. Maybe just maybe we can wait till we see the released season 2 . But since DF they have been changing things according to feedback .
Players are a huge issue as well. I was clearing 12s on beta without issue because the player quality was generally higher. Struggled to actually pug any 12s on live, even after all the nerfs, because people are bad and can’t see it in themselves so blame the game
It didn't really help that people praised TWW before the season started and before the expansion even launched.... I wasn't hyped at all for TWW when I read the changes but somehow the majority was positive about it all. Maybe if people are critical before Midnight launches then we might finally have a decent expansion from the start again.
Are they listening? In Battle for Azeroth (BFA), we said: "We love big pulls!" -> They introduced AoE caps in Shadowlands (SL). In SL, we asked: "Please stop with these boring borrowed powers!" -> They made the Augmentation spec mandatory in Dragonflight (DF). In DF, we begged: "Please stop putting 6 interrupts in a pack of 5 mobs!" -> They removed the AoE CC Stop. And now, we’re saying: "Stop with these 100% -> 10% HP abilities!" -> Guess what? Now, we can’t do big pulls, we can’t play without Aug, we still need a PhD to manage interrupts, and as a tank, we die to a pack of 3 mobs. What a brilliant game design...
you added the borowed power for some reason , borowed power is like sl kyrian abilities and venthyr ect , tf have a spec to do with borowed power ? are you slow ?
Blizzard needs to accept the fact that they screwed up and revert everything they changed from Dragonflight. That was the last time I had fun in mythics. Squishing the numbers just makes it harder for casuals to get into them, too.
They got the gearing perfect in dragonflight season 3. Myth track gear in the vault after completing a +8. In the war within they moved it to +10’s and cranked up the difficulty. I personally hit a wall where I felt like I couldn’t get better gear to do higher keys so I quit. I guarantee I’m not the only person this happened to
When Ian says he completely understands the frustration surrounding something, I immediately follow that up in my head with, "and he's perfectly fine with you being frustrated, because he doesn't care." Seriously, look at how he's led shit over the past few expansions where M+ is concerned. I don't give him the benefit of any doubt, at all.
I firmly believe that the game would be better if he was gone. I look back at so many decisions that were made and just can't actually believe that anyone would make those decisions. For example, when he admitted that they were developing content with the intent to abandon it after the end of the expansion, someone on his team should have cast interrupt on him, stunned him or priority damaged him down. It's insane the amount of time invested into content that was abandoned. He is 100% saying they don't look at participation metrics as an excuse to downplay the fact that participation is massively down. For him to say otherwise would be him admitting that they made mistakes. It's all deflection and damage control.
They don't like admitting an important aspect of their game is in a terrible state. Ian speaks as if it's a whisper in the wind, while players have been beyond frustrated for many months. They just like keeping their jobs and patting themselves on the back.
every aspect of the game that guy touches ends up dogshit. He was behind azerite powers, covenants, and torghast changes, and now hes fucking up M+ because theyre desgning it around the invitationals. its why youre going to see the same 4 dungeons from every Xpac cycled in to the season rotation. They dont give a fuck about the seasonal M+ results, its all about E-sports. Someone go check in with Overwatch to see how that all worked out.
Personally, I've found the "fun" I've been having since tazavesh was released has been steadily decreasing. This expansion all of the dungeons were unfun. The mechanics are tedious and overly punishing. I will not be coming back until the next expansion and if those dungeons aren't different, I'll quit the game very early on as well. They are so concerned with "challenging" players that they forgot to make things fun. Let the infinite scaling take care of the challenge, and start making dungeons fun, like tazavesh. Til then, I won't be back for a season.
Agree with most of what is being said, but I've said for years. Class balance is VITAL for dungeon participation. Meta chasers are a small pool of the M+ community, I would say about 80% of guilds just want to play the class they love, and if that class sucks, they stop playing. 80% of my Guild roster are players that main 1 maybe 2 classes. If those classes have to queue for 40 mins to get invited into higher level groups, they just stop playing.
@@grenadanotthecountry m+ balance was bad. enh gapping everything by 20%, required kicks increased to we get a ppally + disc priest for PI and externals. yes, s1 is horrible.
Kinda what happened to me but I'm stubborn so I've spent hours trying discover a new main that I will enjoy. Want to play DH (my love) but it's currently just unplayable and awkward.
@@grenadanotthecountry Balance wasn't bad? Bro you put a enhance shammy + aug and watch people onephase 1st boss mists in a +17 or higher sometimes.. vs most of the other specs and they are 2-3 phasing that thing in a +10-12. The only time I remotely remember seeing one or two specs outperform the entire pack this bad was like s4 BFA mages. Throw on top of that how much harder at least half the dungeons are if you don't have a shaman for utility.
Couldn't agree more. I've seen people try to change the definition of balance to mean "is a class capable of completing the content that gives the highest power related reward". So for this season, they will show the stats at +10, which shows Prot Paladin at 32%, and say everything is fine. Even Blizzard has used this definition . We all know balance should mean are classes capable of the reaching the same ceiling, and that is easily shown to be false. Once you get to title range keys(+16) Prot Paladin is at 90%. Once you get you to Rank 1 keys, Prot Paladin is 100%. Balance is absolute trash this season.
All healers need a CR. All healers need to be able to dispell all schools. All tanks need a BL. Any DPS brining utility is optional extra. The "Instant recast if stunned/feared etc." change needs reverting. Every season needs a dinar/bullion system for players who don't want to raid to still be able to compete in m+ without being limited by trinkets or unique effect necklaces or cloaks. Fix these things and we're golden. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
I would spend around 30 mins or so in que for m+. Only for when i do get into one, everyone disbands after the first wipe. I gabe up on m+ this season, and that bums me out.
I can guarantee that won't change. I'm going to guess you are dps because as a tank/healer I get in instantly and I'm not even meta. Blizzard cannot fix behavior of players. Ppl are free to leave I they want. I k ow it's effecting your gameplay but there will always be more dps then tanks/healers. And not all groups are like what you described.
@@Dragron01 nah, if u increase reward and decrease punishment for failure people will invite whatever, as long as they're not 3k players lol. Doesn't help that we geared MUCH slower this time around. However you are right, it won't change cause they've made tank and healers job harder and the anti deplete is only for good players, so the midrange will be a shitshow like always. Maybe it'll be easier to get into weekly keys idk.
Same, why I should be paying for a game where you look for hours in LFG window rather than play the game, while there’s other games where you log in a play straight away. No solo queue based on cleared content, one meta build that if you not part of it then ciao go play delves.
@@Dragron01doesn’t stop people from only wanting to pick Meta classes for their groups regardless of key level. I’m a healer main so get in quickly, it the punishing nature of Meta+ right now does cause people to leave more often.
Blizz takes so long to change anything in their games that by the time they do, everything has already burned to the ground. I don't know why PTR exists. I don't know why they want our feedback if they just ignore it anyways. Also the fact that they say one thing but do something else. TWW S1 wasn't supposed to have spike damage or toned down, they did the opposite, in my opinion spike damage is crazier than ever. I will believe when I see it and even then I don't believe blizz "good faith" will last long and they are going to throw crap at the fan again soon enough.
Complete BS bureaucracy nonsense! They knew in beta that the direction blizzard devs picked was wrong. Think of it, not one, not one competitive content creator was excited about direction of M+ in TWW. That should have been a monumental red flag that they should have acted on instead of sticking to their guns. Turns out their decisions were wrong, and with all the hype, still they managed to flop. Why give the benefit of the doubt? Its the same nonsense all the time, same bad decision making. Plenty of reasonable players in the community give heads up, high level players, with coordinated premades… how stupid can you be? If blizzard wanted to be successful, have a fun M+ season, they would have made tanks feel like tanks, not over-stressed the healers with added responsibility of soft tanks, million aoe mechanics, spam casts etc etc, and they would actually have passed the bottleneck on dps potential as opposed to tank survive. They would also have learned after n+1th time, to stop over-tuning and allowing it to be so (and buggy) through half or more than half the season… list goes on, its tiring its stupid.
Not to be the downer... Reading what he's saying doesn't at all reflect the words that would be used by someone who does in fact, get it. There is a lot of "If you think that's a problem, then it is a problem." That's not the same thing as "You see a problem, and we see it too". I don't think they listen when it matters, so how many times do we "let them cook." DF was their chance to show us they were listening, and TWW was their chance to show that they continued to meet the players where we told them to be. I predict we're going to have unfun borrowed power mechanics again in no time.
i really like Dawnbreaker, the bosses are maybe a tad too punishing on the healing side, but it´s got a got mix of trashpulls and nice pacing. Unfortunately the only really good new dungeon.
I like dawnbreaker too. my only issue is that it's still buggy AF. I practically can't do a single run without either clipping through the ships or dying to the big bubble on the first boss when I wasnt even close to the purple cloud. but when it does work the way it should it is the best dungeon this season hands down.
@@Eulrich Ehhh agree Dawnbreaker is great but not the only awesome new dungeon, I loved the pacing and bosses of Ara Kara. Stonevault is is great too but a bit of a slog. The only one I hate so far is CoT, so many things can go wrong 😂
@@theheebs100 the bubble is not buggy per se, but the hitbox is bigger than the graphic show - which is impressive,a s it´s already showing very big. i just keep a very save distance every time.
@@philmehrart i don´t know, i loath the ara kara bosses, especially with my healdragon (the reduced range is soo painful boss 3 the way most groups play that in pugs and single target healing on boss 2 is also a tad of a struggle at times). And Boss 3 is just the worst designed boss they ever made i think, everything being a oneshot and way to frequent for that. it´s always just either a boring fight or the group will struggle sooooo hard, no in between. Stonevault as a tank is surprisingly fine most of the time, as a healer it´s again just criminal at points, especially if dps donßt know what a cursedispell is because it does not make the numbers go brrr and the 3rd boss is also a huge pug killer when people manage to just kill all the crystals the same time.
They have to quit gutting the FUN and stop heavy punishments. TOo much time investment to stomp out fun and waste hours of time with heavy-handed punishments
They should probably address gearing. I've gotten a myth track item from the vault every week its been possible to do so, and still have 7 slots that are hero track. I almost certainly wont hit max ilvl before the season ends. It shouldn't be a literal requirement to mythic raid or buy wow tokens+craft in order to gear. A full season of spamming 10s should be enough.
the part where he says "we're less focused on raw participation metrics" makes me really nervous. it says to me that they are fine with a game mode that excludes an increasingly large swath of the playerbase as long as the top percent that are participating are having a good time. in my opinion, catering to that increasingly small top percentage is the wrong direction to take this.
That's what they did with League of Legends, and that's why I quit after the 3rd season. Only making it fun for the top 1k players worldwide leaves a lot of people not having much fun.
do you even watch top players? all of them hate the current season. this season made me a raidlogger. i NEVER did that since the implementation of m+ (except s2 df, i'm not an aug enjoyer). blizzard is most definitely NOT catering to the top players, they are catering to their own twisted ideas. so stop blaming that 1 small group for the state of the game, when they arent even at fault.
@@sinnis4993 They are though. They are the ones who did some very high keys without a healer and bragged about it. They are the ones for whom the game is too easy, and it's always going to be easy for them, cause they, and they alone, really are that good.
@@mothman84 that is a weird stretch. they did some high keys without healers because OFF HEALING is way too powerful. just look at AG, VE, ret pally and aug. nerf those. so...what is your point again? they arent balancing around title range, they are balancing around +10. the community is the real problem because...sorry the community is just dumb.
@@mothman84 This is a weird take. Just because they had some fun with a niche strategy just to see if they could do it doesn't mean they want the entire game catered around them.
Watch what they do, not what they say. So they haven't done anything to inspire hope for s2. Their track record of changes is not great, as others have posted. Fixing the burst damage and interrupts would go a long way to recover goodwill, from me at least.
Correct. His response literally said they care more about how we play than they care how many of us play. They aren’t going to fix it. Ion doubled down.
And this is kinda why i much rather have them extending a patch by maybe 1-2 months if it means they're finally gonna fix mythic+. But i just know it's not gonna be the case because i feel like Blizzard aren't listening or aren't even playing the game.
hell its not even good talk it was all pr nothing speech like most things ion says. hes too prideful and needs to step tf down since he clearly doesnt like the greater wow commmunity this much
All the problems are of their own making. The whole interrupt and CC thing has been a total nightmare, they just have to re-roll it back to what they were in DF. One shots when they expressly said they were going to smooth out damage on tanks LOL. Constant nerfing of some classes(looking at you warriors) while other meta specs get buffs is downright stupid, some of their choices of nerfs/buffs looks like they were implemented by someone who doesn't actually play the game. Balancing and UTILITY are the main reasons that some classes have huge difficulty in being accepted into M+ groups, it's no coincidence that the "meta" specs usually have the most utility unless Blizz's balancing has created another anomaly. Blizzard's band aid fixing needs to stop too, fix the problem at source.
It's the same old "We know, we're looking into it". I stopped believing what they say. They messed up this season, for what reason? Made healers and tanks weaker, so many specs remained op while others stayed underpowered throughout the season, the buffs/nerfs were too small. And the gear progression takes forever, making gearing alts a chore only doable by people who have a lot of time to play. Imagine being able to gear up and play all your alts much faster as the season progresses. I know, more people would be happy and play their alts, hence more subs. But no, they don't even want that it seems. Even the catch up system and the crests discounts were introduced only after we complained a lot, not because they thought about it from the beginnning.
as a tank player I am NOT coming back until they really address the tank survival and stop/interrupt problems. Benefit of a doubt ok, but the real problems are not even addressed here-
They are making the game for the sweats, and the casuals and semi-casuals are being pushed out. Ion has been at this for a while now. Every time a piece of content sees alot of participation, Ion makes it significantly harder. Like how a lot of people did mythic raiding back in BFA, so Ion made raids hard in Shadowlands and a lot of people just quit raiding and focused on M+. Then he saw how many people did M+ back in Dragonflight, so he made M+ really hard in TWW, and another lot of people quit M+ altogether. Ion Hazzikostas is slowly and surely driving people away from the game as he focuses the content on the sweatlords. This is why new players aren't even coming in and those who do sure as hell aren't staying for long.
funny cause they are failing to even make the game fun for high end players. my 2 friends and I normally pug up to what is now considered a 16-17 but keys feels so miserable. I miss bfa season 4 so much :(
So blizzard creates problem. Players complain. Blizzard "acknowledges" that thing feels bad. Player praise blizzard for "listening". Rinse, repeat. Theyve been saying the same thing for a decade but norhing evwr changes. Players want to play one way and blizzard wants players to play a completely different way. Until blizzard lets go of that this game will never get better.
yup between the coding out of spite and ego and the few trolls fronting as giga players wanting to keep there fake trophy's its gonna be this same song and dance. idk how anyone heard the nothing burger responses ion said and got any hope that he gives a shit
Admitting issues? Promising to address problems? Actually listening to feedback? How many times did we read this exact same article before, last time being dragonflight. How about less PR talk, more results ?
@@danielharvey3662 It's on PTR. It's not live. They can test what they want on there. When the game director tells you in clear terms what the goal is, maybe understand that not every PTR patch note is going to be a 1:1 reflection of that because that's not how game development works. Give your feedback and move on.
This is my take on Mythic+ as multi 0.1% title holder IN A PUG - no comms. I think that the biggest issue with mythic+ is that it released as something you do and can push through while waiting for that one or two days of a raid. Or, if you are a casual, who does not want to, or cannot, spend hours playing. Go in, go out, 30 minutes, done. Because there really had not been anything challenging to do before mythic+ released in terms of PvE. BUT! The higher you go, the less you can play. To a point, where it takes even several hours to be either accepted to a key, or to have people of equivalent skill join your key. And it gets even worse if you are not a meta slave. And thus the whole purpose of mythic+ has been defeated. Mythic+ should IMHO be COMPLETELY RANDOM solo mode. Or it should have a solo mode with separate rankings. You would queue up for it the same way you do for heroic dungeons, you would get random 3 DPS, 1 Heal, 1 Tank of any class from the people that are in the queue based on their Raider.IO. Let's say it would be brackets of 100 score that would play together. This way you could come online for those 30 minutes after you come home from your 9-5 job, play a competitive fun endgame mode without having to worry about meta slaving or finding people to play with. Go in, go out, have fun, over. And same as heroic dungeons, there would be rewards, SUPERB ones, for queing as a Heal or a Tank, increasing in value based on score. ( of course you would need that rio to be done on that particular role )
I’ve healed tanked and dps this season. There’s 2 types of groups in m+. Those that could run keys at a higher level and those that are permanent single digit key runners. Nothing wrong with either group it’s just drastically different players. Blizz needs to cater more toward lower key runners. All the upcoming changes are only for higher key runners.
Also did all class as you did. And 200% agree with your statement. They need to chill on helping the 1% they are sweaters they will handle 1 season with less focus.
I really don't get why blizzard don't want to allow any big pull for normal players. Absurd bolt overlap, stupid channeling, crazy spiky AOE with unfair target capping.
Because of people like me that find constant big pulls (otherwise known as zerging) to be completely uninteresting and boring. Every dungeon turns into the same mesh of large pulls that people AoE down. it's good when dungeons like CoT or Ara kara have areas where you can mass pull, but that shouldn't be the norm. It also inflates the value of AoE classes and those who have AoE CC like in the past. Having ST or priority damage should matter and in the past it rarely did.
@@SmugHomura noone wants every pull to be big, but you need a good mix of more chill and fun pulls and technical pulls, if every single pull in a 30min dungeon is super complicated it´s just soo taxing to play through. I´m exhausted after tanking 2-3 dungeons or healing them because you need to stay focused 100% for 30min each. That´s just ridiculous, there´s a reason they did go away from 15min raid endbosses, because staying looked in for much more than 10min at a time is just not fun for terribly long.
@@SmugHomurain dragonflight, the main premise of shadow and fire being so strong (aside from being overtuned) was that they could do huge aoe damage through smashing damage into one singular priority target. Priority damage hasn’t been important? Huh?
@@Eulrich "noone wants every pull to be big" there definitely is a vocal group of people that want this, just saying. But yeah I agree they need to tone down trash complexity. However I do think they need to keep these anti-cluster mechanics like Bloddguards reducing damage taken by allies, mobs buffing others mobs, etc. because otherwise reduced mob complexity means going back to pulling all trash until the boss every time.
@@liamdavies2823 Yeah the only reason those 2 specs got brought (apart from buffs and utility) is because they did mass AoE on top of priority damage. Maybe saying 'priority damage isn't important' wasn't exactly correct but you would never bring a prio/ST focused class if they also couldn't do mass AoE. If you have a bunch of mass AoE classes and some of them also have prio damage, of course you're going to pick the one that has both. But the requirement there is the AoE, not the prio damage.
I'd like to M+ be more rewarding, Hero track item and 1 Myth track item per week absolutely sucks and people like me who want to do M+ only and not care about raids are doomed, I don't see why dungeons like +13 can't drop Myth track. Also why do we have so many crests and valorstones? Can't it be like in Dragonflight, you get X score you can upgrade X item level items? Crests and valorstones are basically the same currency but having them both creates bottleneck for you so when you have one you will eventually run out of another.
I think if you're not picked for a key within a minute or 2 then I remove myself and look for another group. As a dps player i find it hard to get into keys that I should be getting into so I end up running my own. Yesterday, I joined a +2 and it having to wait for 5 mins or more when plenty of people are looking to join is a joke. There is no need to have 20+ people in the LFG when there is only 1 spot to fill. Group leaders should accept or reject people faster.
Tank main here: people don't want to tank or heal because the players who chose dps have been the worst this game has ever seen up to this point and the community has 0 self awareness.
Yeah, I stopped playing M+ as DPS because it's not fun spending so much time sitting in Q. I'm fine with sitting at ++10 done for every dungeon. I'm playing next season purely because I like the goblin theme but if it wasn't for that, I'd have quit playing altogether.
@@Doodlebob563 And the good DPS don't want to play M+ because of how long it takes to get into a group. We can keep going around in circles like this and blame each other but ultimately it's a systemic problem that Blizzard needs to solve somehow.
I became a tank for my guild's raid this season and decided to try and crossover to M+ as well. What a fucking time to try that shit. Probably turned me off to it forever.
Git gud. You crybabies got tanks nerfed this season because you were mad "tanks can solo the game" and you didn't want to help contribute any damage to the dungeon. This is what you get. Hopefully you just quit the game.
Healing will never be easier because even if Blizzard increased throughput, tanks would just pull more behind gogogo DPS. The community time and time again is what ruins your fun, not blizzard. As soon as I stopped interacting with the community, the game became amazing for me.
@@m_rod9562 Yep exactly. As a healer myself i mainly do keys as a premade group, which is infinitely easier as pugging. I can do the same key in a +17 without too many problems (still hard to heal, but more cordinated) but when i try to pug it in a 12-13 i sometimes can't even do the key because people tend to not use defensives, externals, interrupts etc. Stuff like that really wants somebody to just leave mid-key but that's not helping anybody unfortunately.
Healing difficulty depends on group strength mostly. My +10 keys are night and day based on the power of the dps and tank. You can feel carried sometimes because of this, which takes a lot of agency away from climbing in pugs. You don’t know if it was you or the group. Sometimes you know but in pug you mostly don’t know group strength beyond group leader and who you look up on raiderio.
I still think loot starvation was one of the worst parts, i had multiple friends simply quit the season after a 4 week drought from chest, should have made +12 give myth track loot.
They really need some form of BLP for loot. I went 6 weeks in a row of full 10+ vault with taking tokens because I got nothing that was an upgrade. I had to use those tools on gold because I was already full on sockets due to earlier weeks getting no upgrades. Until last week I still had a champ tier neck slot. I know I could get one crafted, but that's not cheap and I don't think it's the right answer.
Yep, no myth track from m+ is totally absurd, you don’t get rewarded for doing high tier content at all, so for most people it will be an easy question - why even bother progressing if you are not mythic raider, since at one point you’ll be at such disadvantage from them, that if you are running only m+ it will kill the desire to progress. And with the 20 man must have, 99% of people, inlcuding me will not even try it even though I’d like to do so. I don’t mind investing the time in the game, but relying on so many people in order to do a piece of content is ridiculous in today’s world
I think one major thing that i have not seen anyone saying I think the jump from Mythic to Mythic + was really punishing in the first few days. and the progression to 8 is crazy and stressful! DF vs TWW the lvl to get better gear is a strain! this needs to change to more relaxing mood like DF
I'm finding this from 11s to 12s, 11s is pretty much a lay up now with a good group, everytime I try to pug a 12 without fail will brick in the first 5-10 mins
If only it didn't take them a whole season to start listening! My whole crew quit playing around week 10, I followed 2 weeks later. Not coming back until M+ is fixed, it's the only thing I like in the game.
@@RandoCDN87 like what lol? pvp is in the gutter, mythic raiding has too many absurdly stupid restraints like lockouts/20 man, everything else in the game is just mind numbing completionist stuff. oh wow the siren isles!! what a sick minipatch, the game is saved :DD
@@Melissaxoxox exactly, outside of m+ a game like ff does everything else better lol. an actual coherent story/world that feels alive/roleplay/transmog etc.. the list is endless really, wow is just such a prehistoric game really
@@RandoCDN87 To me M+ is the only good content in the game. I love tanking high keys. There is literally no other game that has that kind of content and it's arguably what keeps the game alive. I'm perfectly happy doing 20-30 hours of M+ per week when the season is good, even selling a token per week for consumables if needed, idc, but they massacred the game mode and it needs fixing really bad right now. Everything else in the game, even SWTOR does better. Quests/leveling is more boring than watching grass grow; delves are no better. PvP is a smurf-infested, queue-dodging game now. I main tank and raid tanking is incredibly easy and boring until the 5th mythic boss but I don't have a mythic raid team anymore and all good teams are always full of tanks anyway, plus I don't want to spend 9-12 hours raiding per week on top of pushing high keys with my static group.
So if they were aware of how bad it is, what was the process leading to the data mined changes? Do the designers start their work day going "Alright management said we're bringing back dungeons X Y and Z, never played them but let's blanket buff all mob abilities by a bunch and throw up some post saying we're trying to make it feel in line with modern dungeons"? Also still curious how they want to un-fuck Darkflame Cleft
I'm still baffled by them putting Darkflame Cleft into the pool, instead of just having Operation: Floodgate be the 4th TWW Dungeon for this Rotation and pick up some DF or Legion Dungeon for more variety.
My biggest issue with this season is that it just feels like they made 2 steps forward with dragonflight and then took 6 steps back with war within, and blizzard does this time and time again. It feels like they felt like people werent staying subbed long enough from the last expansion because of gear acquisition and decided they needed to nerf everything again. This has also become the most unfriendly pug season ever with how important deaths are, on top of the early key levels not mattering but are still needed for score, and learning the dungeon, but the gear sucks and isn't worth doing. Also I think this season kind of proves a point i've been saying to my friends for awhile. That the tank/healer role needs to be reworked. It isn't okay that a tank and healer have to play basically perfect at all times, because if you press one wrong button it can mean a wipe for the group. Where if a dps presses one wrong button it just means they do a little less dmg or only they die. Those roles just feel way harder than they need to be for no reason.
almost like they should listen to their alpha testers LOL "OH WHOOPS YEAH WERE SORRY" once the playerbase is dying...cmon...ion is a cancer...lawyer speak to placate the only people still playing...
@3:30 yeah ion says having a strong meta like that is a problem so they..... nerf the only other tank that's kinda meta into the ground? they can say whatever they want but if they keep making poor decisions it won't matter
Increase the Mythic level step to 1 to 20 as before. There are many problems when you do it to 1 to 10. For example, people who want to join the 9th and 10th steps are crowded to one place, so there is a problem, and it's much better in terms of fun because it takes longer to challenge when you do it to 1 to 20.
That's why they did the squish. To push the M+ population together. They had said nobody would run 5s or 6s because 7s were the best breakpoint for Crest Farms. 8s 9s 10s 11s 12s 13s were also rarely ran as well. If you had a 19? You'd be sitting in que for awhile to form that group. 18s we're slightly easier and 19s didn't give any better rewards, aside from IO. At least with this system, every key matters (Somewhat). It took some time to get used to but it feels fine now.
@ to push the m+ population Together cause the problems if you are not a meta it takes 30~50 minutes to join the goddamn group. Why? Too many competitions Even though u have enough ability to play dungeons, there is a lot of competition, so it's hard to play the game because U compete with people with higher gear levels or higher io players
They need to work harder at balancing the classes. It cannot be that even for m+8 you do not get invited because you are not meta. This is really frustrating. And they need to make certain abilities more wide spread between the classes. Some classes have tons of utility while others have nearly nothing. Sadly the ones with the utility are the ones with the big damage as well. Let’s take the warrior: they nerfed them after some weeks of looking good damage-wise, while palas seems to be meta for months. BL would be a good addition to warriors, while fitting their lore. The old “‘bring the player, not the spec” should be the top priority for the designers. Sadly they seem to need months and months to do minor adjustments that don’t help at all.
That's just a players being dumb issue. Every specc can clear a +12 with ease. The fact that there are differences in viability in high m+ should not mean you have to play "meta" in +8, but it does, because the people putting the group together are dumb. Blizzard can't fix that, it will always be in the game (apart from making "solo queue" kind of a concept, but then we're not talking about players choosing anything). The only solution for you is to find some players to play with...
Looking at current average and max dps for single splash and heavy aoe, Ret are not the top dps at all. This is kind of what Ion was talking about when he said its about player perception. A ton of people play ret (8% in M+) because the damage profile is good where you have big burst on a 30 second CD which means you don't have packs you feel useless, its a relatively simple spec to play so you can focus on mechanics, it is mid range so not as punishing when it comes to melee mechanics, it shares a a class with he top tank so you can off tank as well when you want, and yes a huge part of it is the utility between Brez, LoH, BoP, BoS FoM and a poison dispel ret is great at being consistently good, not over the top broken or even great. Don't get me wrong Warrior does need some utility because that is where it is lacking. When I create a group I'm looking to fill Brez and hero than whatever other utility that is dungeon specific like a poison dispel. If you can do more than one of these you are probably getting into the group. Hell I don't even think about damage as in +11 or under every spec can be brought. Which is why in a dungeon like AK you bring a Ret: they fill the poison dispel, a stun for the call, and can Brez as well as BoP the first hit on the second boss (can one shot tanks going in on higher keys and puts the dot on the first person with agro) and FoM the healer (priest) on the last boss so they don't get stunned. That is a lot of utility to give up on to bring a warrior who has shout and a stun.
@@raul834 Ah yes well there is definitely an issue as they have high damage, tons of utility and active mitigation for days. Plus full spell block and 40+ interrupts per dungeon which is pretty insane as well.
@ yes, this is exactly what I did. But it is design problem. Classes are so imbalanced that people creating the groups think that the chances of completing are higher with the so-called meta ones. And having different abilities like dispels for magic, poison or diseases means you need special classes for them. This does not add any fun to the dungeon, but narrows the classes that can help.
all they need to do is acknowledge that there are a lot of ppl who only want play m+ and have gear that drops in m+ behave like pvp gear. it gets +ilvl whenever you are in a dungeon
It's really quite as simple as just removing the 15 second death penalty. 5 lines of code and a 5mb hotfix is all it would take to immediately fix 95% of the problems with M+, and the playerbase has been screaming this at them since week 1. The only logical explanation is that some of the senior developers who clearly don't play their own content are too stubborn to admit they were wrong and refuse to change it. Tale as old as time.
if you want a "quick and easy fix", it's definitely not the death penalty that's the big problem. if anything, it would be reverting the change so that stops act like a kick again. but there are more problems right now, let's not act like those are the only ones.
its an easy fix but not for blizzard. WoW sourcecode is so blouded with everything on top of each other that a simple change effects stuff down to "vanilla". a recent example is the mass cc nerf. it caused some Mobs in WotlK to one shot you because a line in the code, it messed up the 50-60 leveling area, but it took them days to discover this bug because nobody levels in those zones anymore and nobody encountered those mobs in retail for years.... WoW is a mess of a Game that needs a reset and its not a secret at all.
You make tanks and healers feel rubbish, coupled with frustrating dungeons, not quite sure what they were expecting… Really looking forward to the great hpal changes come s2 /s
I really question the decision making of those in charge of game design. I would have taken the literal opposite take of every philosophical decision they have made. Hamstringing game modes to "revisit" or "fix them later" is getting old, especially for a game with a subscription cost.
Until Blizzard developers play their own game, NONE of these problems will disappear. It is obvious the devs don't play their own game. Bad affix combinations, poor class balance, poor dungeon balance.. All of these stem from devs not fundamentally understanding how their own game plays. This has been a problem for YEARS now. Do I hope Blizzard "fixes" things? YES. Are they going to do it? NO.
1) I’m sure they do play their own game, the problem is M+ is mythic content and not intended to be PUGed at higher levels. Nobody is PUGing mythic raids. It’s content that requires voice communication and coordination to go smoothly. 2) class balance is fine at lower keys. At higher ones in infinitely scaling content even a 1% difference becomes huge. What you’re wanting is impossible. And again…since this isn’t intended to be PUGed, for example the class that can cleanse all poison with a totem wins because it’s brainless and doesn’t require coordination. Same with aug. Blanket brainless utility wins.
most of you guys fundamentally DONT understand game design, yet alone m+. what you want is so far from reality, calling you a dreamer is an understatement. high m+ is not for everyone and shouldnt be for everyone. i am not gatekeeping, but you have to somewhat "study" the game in order to play at a high level. low m+ is "fine", and i say that loosely. there are universal problems that affect low m+ and high m+ to the same degree. at high m+ its more punishing.
@@kevinc8955 1. they should make it puggeable cus a LOT of people wanna pug it. They should make pugging better and easyer. Remove raid id. 2 perfect balance is hard, agree. But they could do better.
@@sinnis4993 Just to point out the obvious here, but the numbers being represented for participation rates and the general negativity around M+ isn't just high level M+. The idea that low m+ is "fine" is not paying attention to the feedback but making assumptions about the feedback. I don't know who is claiming that you shouldn't have to invest time and effort into high level m+. The complaint about investment into learning is typically coming from low and mid level M+ where people just want to run dungeons but they are expected to know routes, pulls and every mechanic of every mob. These mechanics are more punishing FOR YOU at higher levels, but when you start scaling player skill up and down, these mechanics are just as punishing at lower M+ as higher M+. Part of game design is understanding the scope of your target playerbase and being able to accurately reflect it. This has been a major problem with Blizzard for the last few years as it seems each content patch is made for a smaller and smaller target playerbase and the people that aren't part of that target playerbase are jumping ship while the ones that the game is designed for are also not liking it.
@ a lot of words just so I can say „if blizzard designs m+ for a small part of the community and they don’t like it, blizzard ain’t designing it for them“ So what is your point again? Blizzard is most definitely not designing m+ for top 1%. Mechanics ain’t punishing in low level m+. Sorry to burst that bubble. Players in lower levels just refuse to roughly learn boss fights or important kicks, which is required since the implementation of m+. Blizzard can’t fix stupid. Simple as that. The WoW community is entitled like no other community and it’s disgusting. That’s why there will always be an outcry. S3 dragonflight is hailed as one of the best seasons. One of the reasons is: it was easy, like really easy. You didn’t need to press a single def cd until tyrannical +28. at that level mechanics would simply 1shot you.
I have absolutely no faith whatsoever that they are willing or competent enough to truly fix M+. First thing they should have done is revert the stops change on mob casting, but it seems like that's a hill they're ready to let M+ die on and I can't decide whether it's ego or incompetence.
Well, for starters, they can make it so that interrupts and CC's actually DO SOMETHING in M+, as opposed to being largely unimpactful because of mobs spam casting anyways (and just having to pray your healer can immediately top you before the next cast hits someone for another 90% hp). This is the first thing that needs to be addressed NOW before they do anything else. Interrupts need to be more effective, and the number of casters need to be kept in check, and "spam casters" need to not exist.
The biggest issue with this is they made CC not count as an interrupt so they’ll just spam cast after their CC runs out. What I see usually happening is someone with stun/cc the mob right before someone interrupts so when the cc wears off the start casting again and oops now we don’t have an interrupt not on CD. Not a problem if I’m with a guild group on voice but just another way they screwed pugs.
My concern is how did it even get into a build. I'll have to see how it plays out, there has been an issue of class design and encounter design people are not in synch. The results is dungeons that feel bad.
They will be able to have the awareness they want, adopt all the changes they want, for me it's too late I have already left the game and I don't plan to come back, the money/pleasure ratio doesn't matter. is simply worth the cost (subscription, extension, etc.). Blizzard has neglected for too long (always in fact lol) the "pusher/hardcore" players of mythic+, as well as the difficulty of finding team mates or a team, enough is enough, Dragonflight was and will be my last expansion, because Blizzard no longer deserves my money. And to be honnest, when I see what mythic+ becoming, i'm even more happy that I left, it saved me from much frustration against them.
people are overlooking the primary issue: key depletion- i am much more inclined to invite off meta and worse players to my keys if im not punished for doing so. The high teir of m+ is almost all people that do not work or have a very agile work environment because they can allocate so many more hours to "homework keys" this system being removed along with their implementation of non-rotational affixes will really stabilize the upper 20% of keys
Like many others here, I'll believe it when I see it. I never got to experience DF as I came in at the least season, although people praised it a lot and seemed to think it was going in the right direction. Some issues I've found with M+ that I brought up before: - Tanks too squishy, would be great to see Tanks be able to take a hit again - Healers don't feel as 'Healy' depended on as previously, sometimes it feels like the DPS are more responsible for keeping themselves alive with defensives than relying on the healer - Would like the 15 sec death penalty gone, ideally - Enemy insta casting right after a kick is feckin annoying, wish they never added this - Being a Fury Warr main I would love to see warriors get Bloodlust so we get invited to dungeons more, but not gonna hold my breath! I'm not crazy about key depletion but at least they've addressed it to an extent - reaching a certain score/attaining an achievement will prevent key depletes under +12's - however I don't see why they couldn't just move keys to a delve tier system as well, where you select the difficulty on entering the dungeon. I think removing depletes completely would go someway to removing M+ toxicity in general. All in all, there are some in the M+ community that have the attitude of 'git gud, stop being a crybaby' which is fine - I'm all for brutal difficulty at times and making you sweat, that's part and parcel of M+. Its also what can make M+ thrilling - danger lurking around every corner or encounter and, when a team is on form and cutting through a dungeon countering every mechanic thrown at them, its a blast... but regarding the 'git gud' attitude, we have to keep in mind the game is an MMO. Its not just made to cater to the top 0.1% of players who are badass, there should be opportunities for players of varying skill levels to participate. I feel like the difficulty arc is a bit all over the place, I can hold my own in an 11 but when I get to 12's its almost certainly going to be a brick, if I'm Pugging it anyway. Maybe a skill issue on my part, not sure. I hope we see Blizz take M+ more seriously in the coming seasons.
"completely understand" in blizzard terms means "we got a rough idea that there might be a problem perhaps that we may attempt to slightly fix in the next 1-2 years"
Here's the problem , people complained how strong tanks were in dragonflight , of course dh's majority, now most tanks especially for newer players feel liek they cant survive/ heals cant keep them up . But the worst thing they did was the key squish. When u have keys from 10 all the way to 20+ in drgonflight , each key lvl can be scaled alot more fairly , now once u go froms ay 10/11 to 12-13 its a crazy jump . Just revert back to way it was in dragonflight , and if your going to make seasonal affixes , plz blizzard use your brain. Who thought 'yeah lets make players soak orbs flyin in from all directions ' yeah so am i gonna do that on the second boss of ara'kara just for example. This 'squished' system is shit , and i would rather do 12's currently and avoid the seasonal affix crap atm . Thanks for the vid Quazii WoW
It’s been over two decades since they entered the game design business, and they still can’t seem to balance Mythic+ and classes/specs. It’s frustrating. When Elemental and Enhancement Shamans can pull over 10M DPS on the first pull with cooldowns, while other classes and specs struggle to hit similar numbers even with their cooldowns, it's clear there's an imbalance. When you're playing a class with Bloodlust/Combat Res and spend over 30 minutes signing up for groups only to be repeatedly declined because the "meta" classes (like Shamans and Boomkins) are preferred, it's another sign of a problem. When a healer like Resto Shaman has an interrupt on a 15-second cooldown, while a Priest has none, that's a clear imbalance as well. When most casters have an interrupt on a 21-24 second cooldown (with Shadow Priest’s Silence being 45 seconds), but Elemental Shamans have one on just a 15-second cooldown, it forces players to choose specific classes over their favorites just to get invited to Mythic+ groups. When a class like Ret Paladin has little to no cooldowns on every pack, while other classes struggle with cooldowns on alternate packs, it becomes really frustrating. I've played M+ during the TWW season 1 for over 3 months, and in that time, I’ve met one Ret Paladin with great gear (637) who didn’t pull aggro. Over 90% of Ret Paladins I encounter in 10+ keys constantly pull aggro, die, blame the tank, and leave the group, often bricking the key in the process. I don’t understand why this hasn’t been addressed yet. This list could go on, but it’s clear to me that Ion Hazzikostas and the design team don’t seem to have a handle on these issues, despite their long history in game design.
My two cents…. TWW season 1 is simply way too unforgiving. No room for error. 618 ilevel guardian Druid with CDs popped getting one shot multiple times in + 4 SV is just dumb. Poor design imo. Too much of that going on. Technically I’m in a +4 to get champion gear. I have a lot of hero gear and it simply doesn’t matter. Still getting blasted and dying to magic I can’t defend.
That’s one reason this season is such a pug killer and unforgiving for those who don’t have a steady group to play with. I’ve played M+ almost since it released and this is one of the least enjoyable seasons for me as healer main.
That sounds like a you problem. I can tank +4 SV on my 590 ilvl Bear. Sure it get's rough on some pulls. But still not dying anywhere (except if the healer fucks up the dispell on 1st boss).
Stonevault.. would it be the seismic smash that one shots you? Because I suspect the mechanic is being done wrong. Your debuff needs to stay on untill just before the smash, so you get the damage reduction the dispel gives you to survive it.
Ok there are non elite mobs in there ( that’s the hallway) easy to pull a pack of eight. And a lot of death…. I’m probably doing something way wrong. Maybe the healer dispelled me or something ? Help a brother out ….
They are going back to their comfort zone, “Pally OP?, nerf warrior.” When tanks with no utility are op, all tanks get play. When a Utility tank is op, only that tank is played
I mean Blizzard can't be trusted when it comes to M+; tww season 1 proved this by them telling us why they changed tank and healers, we told them it was a bad idea and they ignored. They said we want to fix defensive bloat and they did the opposite. This is just another stack on the promises with no follow through pile in an attempt to do damage control. They've killed m+ for long term m+ players/title pushers for the sake of trying to make WF keys, MDI and TGP "more enjoyable" to watch...
As a tank main: The biggest issue by far this season has been the fact that dungeons asked a little more out of the players and they absolutely fuckin folded. The amount of times I've seen dps and heals brick keys in dungeons that are almost a decade old is staggering. People got too accustomed to no brain dungeon runs. Look at all the people who are incapable of interrupting and tell me I'm wrong.
Well, i´m very worried not seeing any tank and healer changes yet. You need players willing to fill these roles for the system to be healthy. Everything else is secondary. Tanking just sucks bad this saison. And even though i like healing, it´s also way too punishing and has an insane barrier of entry where you really have a steep learning curve because most healers have no way to deal with the incoming dmg reactively and have to be prepared beforehand.
I healer mained for most of my wow life but did some tanking as well. Stepping into the tank role in this season was a big nope for me. I’m with you in enjoying healing but a lot of the time you just can’t keep up. I can save some encounters that go sideways in pugs but usually one or more will die in less then a global lol. It’s much too punishing and they need to go back to the 1 -20 key range and have the start of the keys be less punishing again.
One thing that confuses me is why they don't look back at previous M+ seasons like DF S3 and how successful it was and take the good from that to mix with the new. Instead they seem to throw out all the good things they do. So far with the buffs some of the M+ dungeons are getting they very obviously didn't learn anything and this season is going to be cooked before it gets started if nothing changes. We have an issue with tanks being one shot by white hits and they buffed certain monsters to do more to tanks anyway?! Seriously its a cruel joke lol. They need to remove challengers peril and go back to 5 seconds a death and give us reasonable times to clear a dungeon. Put gilded in M+8 then M+9 gives mythic gear in vault and M+10 is portals. The changes they're doing on the outside looked good at first then they sprinkle in buffs for the new dungeons that will make it worse than it already was lol. A healthy M+ scene is one where more casual players can work there way up to 10 and become a better player. For those like myself who want more of a challenge we can just push the keys much higher who cares if the keys go up a bit.
Good to know they're listening. Let's hope they actually will make changes based on that and not in typical Blizz fashion in last patch of expansion to fix issues that were reported during prepatch PTR. And if they're actually listening, then maybe they'll finally get rid of mythic raid lockouts mid season as well. There's no point in keeping them 2 months into raid and would definitely help with keeping people engaged in pugs. Because currently if your group disbands after 1st boss you're done with raiding for that week. Engagement numbers drop. I'm buffled why this is still a thing.
As a healer, I would really like to see the removal of dispel mechanics from the weekly affixes. Having to remove that and other deadly mechanics like debut on the last boss in SoB is base treachery.
For real, especially when the regular boss mechanic already requires one more dispel then you have. Toss in the affix right before that mechanic and it turns nightmarish real quick.
The problem I have is that I'm very skeptical that the PTR builds are ACTUALLY from a while ago, because given how the community sentiment has been (and this has been constant from the start) why wouldn't they make those changes before shipping a PTR. This sounds like corporate speak for "community sentiment is bad, we need to placate them" and they'll do what they always do, release it in a BS state only to "fix" it a few weeks / months later and expect loud praise for doing what they should have done in the first place. All of this could be solved if they just actually spoke to players and did something like a 'live letter' every patch like the Final Fantasy team does, rather than sit in their ivory tower while the unwashed playerbase suffers. Player perception is a problem of their own making, they followed the best expansion up with a massive series of L's (with a few small W's mixed in) and now they're on the back foot scrambling to pull the ship up from sinking. The design goals for Mythic+ have absolutely nothing about fun, if they were they wouldn't have made half the changes they did, the design goals seem that they're developing the mode with ONLY high key pushers in mind (and seems they're even failing at that) and they're driving the every day playerbase out of the mode and even in many cases out of the GAME. The game designers are so out of touch with the players that actually play the game, the mode is so negative in its entire DNA that it promotes negativity and toxicity and the pressure is so high that, why would anyone want pay to do this in their own time after work. Sure, maybe this might work for those who the game is their job, but that's not the majority of the playerbase. In the wise words of Varok: "You... Just.. Keep... Failing..."
It’s such a shame because I think in terms of class design, Blizzard are absolutely killing it. Im a bit of an Altaholic and I’ve been blown away by how brilliant most of the specs are right now. It’s just the content itself and the system design which is really letting that down.
As a new WOW player it also feels that it has way too many buttons (and cases when) you must press. I feel like it's not only M+ design itself but also class/buttons complexity. Add to this addons requirements, macros knowledge and I don't know if I am really playing a game or I am some sort of part time computer scientist.
If I have to wait more than 10 minutes to get into a key as a dps playing WoW is simply a waste of time. I have a few hours a day max and can't play in a premade group. They need to find a way how you can casually play difficult content. Right now I would rather play different games instead of sitting in queue for the majority of time just to get invited to a group.
I couldnt push this season at all as rdruid. Sometimes 8hr queue and 1637281 declines. NOT A SINGLE INV or decent applys. Made it to 3.1 wich is a joke and logged out. Im done, if S2 is the same im out for real. Inc rdruid changes are sussy af, so prob im doomed again. GGs
@@havtor007 i did list my own key aswell. Result was 38263662 meta boosted slaves or non meta classes in queue and literally only braindead, leftover shit tanks. If youre trash youre left with the trash, literally. Once your key is depleted to lower than 13, gl with upping it again with no decent people in your own queue. Only people who didnt timed they key already are in queue, because why should u reroll ur key with non meta healer. Easier sad than done to just list ur own key as non meta. Depleted my own keys sometimes 1 pull due of absolut trash tanks who cant even manage the easiest mechanics. The only way to actually time something was getting inv into a pug with equal io exp.
2:54 shows what's really wrong with tanking now. 100% to 5% in .2 sec with your shield rolling on a 3 pack pull. That shouldn't happen period. I I didn't even see a tank buster or anything.
In DF it was not as bad, not even close. I had zero problems in DF doing 25-28's (and 17+ in S4), but when TWW launched the oneshots there were was extremly bad.
IMO blizz has been catering m+ specifically to the title range of players, rather than the broader m+ community, and thats the problem. Lemme preface my opinions with my M+ history. I have played m+ religiously since BFA S1. it is the ONLY reason I play wow. I am not a title player, even tho I do try, and i typically end seasons 1-2 key levels below title. I feel like what is making m+ so unfun rn is that thee difficulty curve is getting steeper and steeper, at a lower and lower level. Things require extreme gruop coordination at a relatively loww level, which pretty much requires a premade to even attempt. now, im not suggesting that pugging should be a viable option for title/WF keys, but premades shouldn't feel mandatory 3/4/5 levels below title/WF. there are far too many 1 shot mechanics, and mechanics that rely too heavily on team mates, rather than skilled individual play. an example might be 1st boss in SV, tank buster. at a decently low level, a tank has 0 agency on surviving the hit, and relies entirely on the healer being aware of the DR thee dispel gives, and timing it accordingly. plenty of mid level healers dont even know that thats a mechanic. my other issue (and yes im a little bbiased as a healer main) is that there is FAR too much pressure on tanks andd healers, and not nealry enough on dps players. im sure plenty of people will disagree with this, but imo the tank and healeer gameplay should be smoothed out. tanks should be nearly unkillable, and rather their primary job should be routing, pulling correctly, and controlling mobs. healers should obviously have to heal, BUT it should feel like 110% focus nonstop high octane OH SH*T moments from start to finish. and more focus should instead be put on dps by being much stricter on timers. the inherent design of m+ scaling means people wwill ALWAYS hit a difficulty level that reequires coordinated group play and exeecution, so forcing that in with mechanics, healer and tank nerfs, boss buffs, etc feels unecessary and makes the experieence for the broader community much wworse.
As long as they don't make tanks and healers much more enjoyable to play nothing will change. Especially healers. I loved healing back in the olden days. Yes I still was respnsible for 5-xx of the dumbest people on earth (WoW DPS Players) but at least that was it. Now I have heal, deal damage and interrupt using 20 different AddOns and see maybe 5 pixels of my screen because someone threw up a rainbow between all by AddOn bars. And of course I'm still at fault if dumb, dumber and dumbest die happly pressing the spacebar standing in 3 different colors of said rainbow.
We don’t have to give them the benefit of the doubt. We’ve been saying there’s something wrong for a long time and they said no there’s not. They’re only saying there is a problem because everyone is leaving the game for PoE2 or Marvel Rivals.
It would be interesting if they add a follower version of Mythic Plus, but I doubt they will do it. I'll stick with open world and delves,raids once a while
Can anyone clarify about the depletion of keys. I heard squishy say it was no key drop in depletion and then if 2850 io is reached, another reward of no key level dropping below 12. Everytime I read the paragraph quote from blizzard, it sounds like depletions of key level will drop and ONLY if u obtain 2850 does it not drop. Confusing. Any info is appreciated.
I havn't seen anyone bring up the issue that all you get (gearwise) after a couple of weeks is essentially a one armed bandit pull a week. I don't want to raid, atleast give the potential to drop a mythic track piece per different dungeon ran at +12 on a weekly lockout. Motivate people to run different dungeons and match the gear acquisition potential of raid.
I think it would be great if they would even the base utility gap between specs a bit more. What I mean is, that every spec should have at least one interrupt (not stun, or knockback but actual interrupt) so that it doesn't become a factor when inviting certain classes or specs. It would also be great if all healers could dispell all debuffs in one form or another, as the healing requirement can change drastically if you can't dispell certain things. For tanks maybe something like a specific defensive against magic damage would be interesting. Classes don't need to be all the same, I like how different they feel and play and damage and healing profiles don't have to be similar, but at least make sure everyone has the tools to deal with the mechanics thrown at you.
One week early in an expansion I did Mythic dungeons and did quite okay. Then I had almost no time to play due to work and when I got a bit more time again, everyone was at M+15 and it was impossible to find a group. Quit WoW for good and didn't look back.
Part of the M+ grind is also a bit of self-assessment and setting realistic goals and thresholds for oneself to be fair. A lot of the problems with M+ are driven by player behaviour, granted that behaviour may sometimes be a consequence of the game design by Blizzard. Personally, I have minimal interest to push above +10s or +11s since the extra reward is only IO in contrast with an exponential increase in difficulty in 12s and above. I get that some people love the challenge and I think it's great for them. But after a day of work and chores, the last thing I need from a game is for me to have to study a pool of dungeons to know deadly abilities to kick, dodge or mitigate with defensives - and play almost perfectly so that I don't ruin the experience of 4 other people. I have accepted that for now whether it's due to skill, will or time, that is my limit. I would love being able to log in and just game (smash a key ideally, rather than brick it) but between long queues, leavers and highly strung players, pugging can put a real damper on your enjoyment to play. With that said, when even high key pushers seem to have the same grievances, surely it's time for Blizzard to pay attention and adjust accordingly.
MEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. How many times have we heard that exact verbage before? I lost count. Actions > Words and seeing the changes on the PTR I am no hopeful at all.
They should just add a queue to M+. Make the ques teirs. You have a 1-4 key, you can que for a 1, 5-8 a 5 and so on.. if the key is timed everyone gets their queued key up'd if it's not timed there is no penalty besides your key not getting upgraded. M+ isn't just a time sink while playing but also trying to find a group for 20 mins having to be actively applying to not be invited is an absolute killer for someone who doesn't have a ton of time.
For me the stone cap made it so I couldn't upgrade a bunch of my gear and I stopped playing. The people who have 5-man consistent groups and can push higher coordinate keys have a huge advantage over those of us who use group finder. Most players use group finder or join with friends of ranging item level and abilities. The weekly caps are to protect raiding, but it severely hurts m+.
I'm from Australia playing on OCE servers. I mostly make my own groups. At the start it was fine and quick. Now I am gearing an alt and it's practically impossible to find OCE players to play with for 2 to 10s. These days it takes a good half hour to fill a group or more. And good luck joining pugs, need like 630 ilvl to get into a +8. I gave up on the alt - not worth it
you are 630 item level and want to go in a mythic 8, bro you need to be at least 637, definetly higher item level than having full crafted gear 636 and others slots myth track 6/6 minimum. This is the game players want mate. If you have a life and are not mythic raiding you shouldn't even think about mythic plus. The designers want to first you mythic raid then you go to mythic 8. after you are fully geared. You must likely new to this game XD
I really love your positivity. There are not enough youtubers like you out there. Most of them are doom and gloom and hating on Blizzard. It's a breath of fresh air to have someone giving Blizz the benefit of the doubt. Especially this season when the devs have been listening to the community more than they ever have before.
I think a lot of the decline is the absence of key runners only doing them for the rewards (tokens, gear, stones etc). Now that those things are available elsewhere, people with limited time and/or dont really like M+ arent doing them. Its a natural drop off and not necessarily a bad thing as the people that ar eleft are the ones who care.
It’s basically first impression and reading the changes and sticking to timers and punishments just points at ptsd , which automatically kills any hype. The NPCs look so good but a bad start means just don’t start till next season for me , personal opinion.
So the perception vs reality thing is so frustrating as a tank and a dps player because when I play my tank I am literally trolling my group if I don’t play my paladin because it is so much better than anything else. The damage, group utility and the whole thing is just so much crazier than any other tank and for the dps side it’s crazy because the two specs that do damage do so much more damage on the highest end than other classes it’s insane
Heads-Up: I am already updated the Quazii Season 2 M+ profile via PTR testing. The profile will be released to everyone in time for Season 2 - stay tuned to discord #announcement for the release - join here discord.gg/quazii | I will also update the website as usual at quazii.com/the-war-within-plater-nameplates-profile/ | Class WAs will also be updated for Season 2.
Thankyou for all the hard work you do for us.
They won't change a thing or if they do they ill change stuff that we are not asking for but it ill help m+ to become easier but what we are asking for they won't.
In my opinion the biggest mistake they made with season 1 is the recasting after stuns. this means every group needs to have 3 good interrupts with comms or 4-5 with pugs. This has completely destroyed all diversity in teams. and yes stun nerfs were warranted, but not like this.
Na. AoE stops were a problem. VDH even right now can lock down casters for the 1st few seconds of a pull if they reimplement that stun change.
@@slymcfly123 yea cc nerfs were warranted, but as it is currently, you cannot run 2 casters without a prot paladin. and even then you still want the prot pala for the interrupts
@lopas3525 if your healer has an interrupt sure you can with or w/o a paladin.
@slymcfly123 VDH needed changes. the game didn't need to be changed in an attempt to fit around VDH
And a class/spec still doesnt have a kick. Wild
From a healer pov I’d like two things:
1. 100%->10% hits on a tank when they don’t mitigate is fine (because that’s part of playing a tank) but the whole group doesn’t need random ones all the time. Slow damage and healing is more fun than constantly stressing over having enough instants.
2. Can all healers just be able to dispel poison/disease/curse on their dispel magic ability? Having dps being able to only do one type is fine but (for example) running Grim batol and having to manually out heal all the curses because I didn’t pick a curse dispelling class wasn’t fun.
Making classes and specs even more similar is not a good direction.
But maybe all classes should have some dispell, and dispelling should not be a healer task. They have enough on their board already.
@@daviddudas5392 While I agree that we shouldn't push to have classes be more similar. It was a bad call on the Devs end to make a Curse or Poison that deadly. You immediately shutout the majority of classes when something is balanced around that. Rather, if there's a important dispel mechanic. It should ALWAYS be Magic. Flavor dispels could fall into the Curse, Poison, Disease.
100% to 10% without mitigation sure but you should Not need to use Defensive cooldown on every pack in the world.
Active mitigation exist spesifically for that.
The tank should fall low if they let mitigation fall off however you should not need active mitigation and on top of that have defensive cooldown used just to not get one shot.
@@daviddudas5392 I know mage can remove curses but it is a talent choice. Do mages pick up this remove curse talent?
@@skylarius3757 yes they do, because if they don't they need to spend an extra talent point to avoid it😅 using it is a different story tho
Blizzard can "admit" all they want but until they actually make real changes none of this matters.
And based on the current state of the PTR it sure doesn't look like they are responding to a lot of the criticism. Some, yes, but majority remains untouched.
They don't really think that they just don't want player numbers to go down
They reworked the affixes because they admit that it was bad. Now they admit it again. What do you want from them? As soon as you have something to complain about they change it? It's not that simple. Small changes are possible, which they already did. You should stop watching asmongold or if you don't, stop living in the past.
I mean I’m sry but you are just unreasonable. From DF, they listen and changes things, the same has happened in the war within with the siren isle and the anniversary event. Some things take longer to change. I would 100 % agree with you if there were other mmos with more frequent patches and changes but they don’t exist.
@@ssv-y2q I mean they probably think that and don’t want players to go down. Maybe just maybe we can wait till we see the released season 2 . But since DF they have been changing things according to feedback .
@@woo22-q8l They also just made the game worse for no reason and made changes no one thought where good or wanted
Blizzard are soo slow to listen to the players, people said M+ was bad since week1. Now after many quit and many months in, they realize m+ needs fix?
Players are a huge issue as well. I was clearing 12s on beta without issue because the player quality was generally higher. Struggled to actually pug any 12s on live, even after all the nerfs, because people are bad and can’t see it in themselves so blame the game
@@liamdavies2823 git gud isn't a good analysis. Everything is easier with top tier players only the really dedicated go on PTR.
It didn't really help that people praised TWW before the season started and before the expansion even launched.... I wasn't hyped at all for TWW when I read the changes but somehow the majority was positive about it all. Maybe if people are critical before Midnight launches then we might finally have a decent expansion from the start again.
@@liamdavies2823on beta there was a bug, where bonus damage was not turn on. So u did 11th with higher mob and boss hp.
@@riddert4966you know mythic plus is not the only thing about the game. Also stop playing something that you don’t like and stop bitching around
Are they listening?
In Battle for Azeroth (BFA), we said: "We love big pulls!" -> They introduced AoE caps in Shadowlands (SL).
In SL, we asked: "Please stop with these boring borrowed powers!" -> They made the Augmentation spec mandatory in Dragonflight (DF).
In DF, we begged: "Please stop putting 6 interrupts in a pack of 5 mobs!" -> They removed the AoE CC Stop.
And now, we’re saying: "Stop with these 100% -> 10% HP abilities!" -> Guess what?
Now, we can’t do big pulls, we can’t play without Aug, we still need a PhD to manage interrupts, and as a tank, we die to a pack of 3 mobs. What a brilliant game design...
Hear hear!
Perfectly surmised!
WHO is telling you you can’t play without an Aug? WHO???
you added the borowed power for some reason , borowed power is like sl kyrian abilities and venthyr ect , tf have a spec to do with borowed power ? are you slow ?
How was Augmentation spec mandatory? Talking shit tb
Blizzard needs to accept the fact that they screwed up and revert everything they changed from Dragonflight. That was the last time I had fun in mythics. Squishing the numbers just makes it harder for casuals to get into them, too.
They got the gearing perfect in dragonflight season 3. Myth track gear in the vault after completing a +8. In the war within they moved it to +10’s and cranked up the difficulty. I personally hit a wall where I felt like I couldn’t get better gear to do higher keys so I quit. I guarantee I’m not the only person this happened to
Having to farm crests at +8 is rough for most players so they quit once they hit 619
When Ian says he completely understands the frustration surrounding something, I immediately follow that up in my head with, "and he's perfectly fine with you being frustrated, because he doesn't care." Seriously, look at how he's led shit over the past few expansions where M+ is concerned. I don't give him the benefit of any doubt, at all.
I firmly believe that the game would be better if he was gone. I look back at so many decisions that were made and just can't actually believe that anyone would make those decisions. For example, when he admitted that they were developing content with the intent to abandon it after the end of the expansion, someone on his team should have cast interrupt on him, stunned him or priority damaged him down. It's insane the amount of time invested into content that was abandoned.
He is 100% saying they don't look at participation metrics as an excuse to downplay the fact that participation is massively down. For him to say otherwise would be him admitting that they made mistakes. It's all deflection and damage control.
They don't like admitting an important aspect of their game is in a terrible state. Ian speaks as if it's a whisper in the wind, while players have been beyond frustrated for many months. They just like keeping their jobs and patting themselves on the back.
every aspect of the game that guy touches ends up dogshit. He was behind azerite powers, covenants, and torghast changes, and now hes fucking up M+ because theyre desgning it around the invitationals. its why youre going to see the same 4 dungeons from every Xpac cycled in to the season rotation. They dont give a fuck about the seasonal M+ results, its all about E-sports. Someone go check in with Overwatch to see how that all worked out.
Personally, I've found the "fun" I've been having since tazavesh was released has been steadily decreasing. This expansion all of the dungeons were unfun. The mechanics are tedious and overly punishing. I will not be coming back until the next expansion and if those dungeons aren't different, I'll quit the game very early on as well.
They are so concerned with "challenging" players that they forgot to make things fun. Let the infinite scaling take care of the challenge, and start making dungeons fun, like tazavesh. Til then, I won't be back for a season.
Agree with most of what is being said, but I've said for years. Class balance is VITAL for dungeon participation. Meta chasers are a small pool of the M+ community, I would say about 80% of guilds just want to play the class they love, and if that class sucks, they stop playing. 80% of my Guild roster are players that main 1 maybe 2 classes. If those classes have to queue for 40 mins to get invited into higher level groups, they just stop playing.
Balance this season wasnt bad, people are the problem
@@grenadanotthecountry m+ balance was bad. enh gapping everything by 20%, required kicks increased to we get a ppally + disc priest for PI and externals. yes, s1 is horrible.
Kinda what happened to me but I'm stubborn so I've spent hours trying discover a new main that I will enjoy. Want to play DH (my love) but it's currently just unplayable and awkward.
@@grenadanotthecountry Balance wasn't bad? Bro you put a enhance shammy + aug and watch people onephase 1st boss mists in a +17 or higher sometimes.. vs most of the other specs and they are 2-3 phasing that thing in a +10-12. The only time I remotely remember seeing one or two specs outperform the entire pack this bad was like s4 BFA mages. Throw on top of that how much harder at least half the dungeons are if you don't have a shaman for utility.
Couldn't agree more. I've seen people try to change the definition of balance to mean "is a class capable of completing the content that gives the highest power related reward". So for this season, they will show the stats at +10, which shows Prot Paladin at 32%, and say everything is fine. Even Blizzard has used this definition . We all know balance should mean are classes capable of the reaching the same ceiling, and that is easily shown to be false. Once you get to title range keys(+16) Prot Paladin is at 90%. Once you get you to Rank 1 keys, Prot Paladin is 100%. Balance is absolute trash this season.
All healers need a CR. All healers need to be able to dispell all schools. All tanks need a BL. Any DPS brining utility is optional extra. The "Instant recast if stunned/feared etc." change needs reverting. Every season needs a dinar/bullion system for players who don't want to raid to still be able to compete in m+ without being limited by trinkets or unique effect necklaces or cloaks. Fix these things and we're golden. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
I would spend around 30 mins or so in que for m+. Only for when i do get into one, everyone disbands after the first wipe. I gabe up on m+ this season, and that bums me out.
I can guarantee that won't change. I'm going to guess you are dps because as a tank/healer I get in instantly and I'm not even meta.
Blizzard cannot fix behavior of players. Ppl are free to leave I they want. I k ow it's effecting your gameplay but there will always be more dps then tanks/healers. And not all groups are like what you described.
@@Dragron01 nah, if u increase reward and decrease punishment for failure people will invite whatever, as long as they're not 3k players lol. Doesn't help that we geared MUCH slower this time around. However you are right, it won't change cause they've made tank and healers job harder and the anti deplete is only for good players, so the midrange will be a shitshow like always. Maybe it'll be easier to get into weekly keys idk.
Same, why I should be paying for a game where you look for hours in LFG window rather than play the game, while there’s other games where you log in a play straight away. No solo queue based on cleared content, one meta build that if you not part of it then ciao go play delves.
@001Elpato meta only matters if you are doing high keys. But yeah there are other games that don't have a waiting list.
@@Dragron01doesn’t stop people from only wanting to pick Meta classes for their groups regardless of key level. I’m a healer main so get in quickly, it the punishing nature of Meta+ right now does cause people to leave more often.
Blizz takes so long to change anything in their games that by the time they do, everything has already burned to the ground.
I don't know why PTR exists. I don't know why they want our feedback if they just ignore it anyways.
Also the fact that they say one thing but do something else.
TWW S1 wasn't supposed to have spike damage or toned down, they did the opposite, in my opinion spike damage is crazier than ever.
I will believe when I see it and even then I don't believe blizz "good faith" will last long and they are going to throw crap at the fan again soon enough.
Complete BS bureaucracy nonsense! They knew in beta that the direction blizzard devs picked was wrong. Think of it, not one, not one competitive content creator was excited about direction of M+ in TWW. That should have been a monumental red flag that they should have acted on instead of sticking to their guns. Turns out their decisions were wrong, and with all the hype, still they managed to flop. Why give the benefit of the doubt? Its the same nonsense all the time, same bad decision making. Plenty of reasonable players in the community give heads up, high level players, with coordinated premades… how stupid can you be?
If blizzard wanted to be successful, have a fun M+ season, they would have made tanks feel like tanks, not over-stressed the healers with added responsibility of soft tanks, million aoe mechanics, spam casts etc etc, and they would actually have passed the bottleneck on dps potential as opposed to tank survive.
They would also have learned after n+1th time, to stop over-tuning and allowing it to be so (and buggy) through half or more than half the season… list goes on, its tiring its stupid.
Honestly, M+ was so punishing in S1, it made me quit WoW. I want a game mode where I can have FUN, not stress over perfection. Tone it down blizz.
Not to be the downer... Reading what he's saying doesn't at all reflect the words that would be used by someone who does in fact, get it. There is a lot of "If you think that's a problem, then it is a problem." That's not the same thing as "You see a problem, and we see it too".
I don't think they listen when it matters, so how many times do we "let them cook." DF was their chance to show us they were listening, and TWW was their chance to show that they continued to meet the players where we told them to be. I predict we're going to have unfun borrowed power mechanics again in no time.
i really like Dawnbreaker, the bosses are maybe a tad too punishing on the healing side, but it´s got a got mix of trashpulls and nice pacing. Unfortunately the only really good new dungeon.
I like dawnbreaker too. my only issue is that it's still buggy AF. I practically can't do a single run without either clipping through the ships or dying to the big bubble on the first boss when I wasnt even close to the purple cloud. but when it does work the way it should it is the best dungeon this season hands down.
@@Eulrich Ehhh agree Dawnbreaker is great but not the only awesome new dungeon, I loved the pacing and bosses of Ara Kara. Stonevault is is great too but a bit of a slog. The only one I hate so far is CoT, so many things can go wrong 😂
@@theheebs100 the bubble is not buggy per se, but the hitbox is bigger than the graphic show - which is impressive,a s it´s already showing very big. i just keep a very save distance every time.
@@philmehrart i don´t know, i loath the ara kara bosses, especially with my healdragon (the reduced range is soo painful boss 3 the way most groups play that in pugs and single target healing on boss 2 is also a tad of a struggle at times). And Boss 3 is just the worst designed boss they ever made i think, everything being a oneshot and way to frequent for that. it´s always just either a boring fight or the group will struggle sooooo hard, no in between.
Stonevault as a tank is surprisingly fine most of the time, as a healer it´s again just criminal at points, especially if dps donßt know what a cursedispell is because it does not make the numbers go brrr and the 3rd boss is also a huge pug killer when people manage to just kill all the crystals the same time.
They have to quit gutting the FUN and stop heavy punishments. TOo much time investment to stomp out fun and waste hours of time with heavy-handed punishments
They should probably address gearing. I've gotten a myth track item from the vault every week its been possible to do so, and still have 7 slots that are hero track. I almost certainly wont hit max ilvl before the season ends.
It shouldn't be a literal requirement to mythic raid or buy wow tokens+craft in order to gear. A full season of spamming 10s should be enough.
Preaching!!!! Ámen 🙏 . It feels awfull. Like you are a slave to the vault god. And he just wants you to kill yourself.
the part where he says "we're less focused on raw participation metrics" makes me really nervous. it says to me that they are fine with a game mode that excludes an increasingly large swath of the playerbase as long as the top percent that are participating are having a good time. in my opinion, catering to that increasingly small top percentage is the wrong direction to take this.
That's what they did with League of Legends, and that's why I quit after the 3rd season. Only making it fun for the top 1k players worldwide leaves a lot of people not having much fun.
do you even watch top players? all of them hate the current season. this season made me a raidlogger. i NEVER did that since the implementation of m+ (except s2 df, i'm not an aug enjoyer). blizzard is most definitely NOT catering to the top players, they are catering to their own twisted ideas. so stop blaming that 1 small group for the state of the game, when they arent even at fault.
@@sinnis4993 They are though. They are the ones who did some very high keys without a healer and bragged about it. They are the ones for whom the game is too easy, and it's always going to be easy for them, cause they, and they alone, really are that good.
@@mothman84 that is a weird stretch. they did some high keys without healers because OFF HEALING is way too powerful. just look at AG, VE, ret pally and aug. nerf those.
so...what is your point again? they arent balancing around title range, they are balancing around +10. the community is the real problem because...sorry the community is just dumb.
@@mothman84 This is a weird take. Just because they had some fun with a niche strategy just to see if they could do it doesn't mean they want the entire game catered around them.
Watch what they do, not what they say. So they haven't done anything to inspire hope for s2.
Their track record of changes is not great, as others have posted. Fixing the burst damage and interrupts would go a long way to recover goodwill, from me at least.
Correct. His response literally said they care more about how we play than they care how many of us play. They aren’t going to fix it. Ion doubled down.
Actions speak louder than words, and until we see something meaningful all their talk is just hot air.
Yep or gets fixed 10 months to late
@@OrazCostanzo Very true, I know myself that this season of M+ is a heck of a lot more of a pain in the butt compared to previous seasons.
Amen brudda, I dont think Ion even replies to these questions with an actual original thought. He just ctrl+Vs the same shit PR replies since Legion.
And this is kinda why i much rather have them extending a patch by maybe 1-2 months if it means they're finally gonna fix mythic+. But i just know it's not gonna be the case because i feel like Blizzard aren't listening or aren't even playing the game.
hell its not even good talk it was all pr nothing speech like most things ion says. hes too prideful and needs to step tf down since he clearly doesnt like the greater wow commmunity this much
All the problems are of their own making.
The whole interrupt and CC thing has been a total nightmare, they just have to re-roll it back to what they were in DF. One shots when they expressly said they were going to smooth out damage on tanks LOL. Constant nerfing of some classes(looking at you warriors) while other meta specs get buffs is downright stupid, some of their choices of nerfs/buffs looks like they were implemented by someone who doesn't actually play the game.
Balancing and UTILITY are the main reasons that some classes have huge difficulty in being accepted into M+ groups, it's no coincidence that the "meta" specs usually have the most utility unless Blizz's balancing has created another anomaly.
Blizzard's band aid fixing needs to stop too, fix the problem at source.
yup, the times a class without util is meta is only when they are extremely overtuned in throughput numbers
It's the same old "We know, we're looking into it". I stopped believing what they say. They messed up this season, for what reason? Made healers and tanks weaker, so many specs remained op while others stayed underpowered throughout the season, the buffs/nerfs were too small. And the gear progression takes forever, making gearing alts a chore only doable by people who have a lot of time to play. Imagine being able to gear up and play all your alts much faster as the season progresses. I know, more people would be happy and play their alts, hence more subs. But no, they don't even want that it seems. Even the catch up system and the crests discounts were introduced only after we complained a lot, not because they thought about it from the beginnning.
I'm sure they hear us, but they are not listening.
Change needs to happen NOW. Not in season 3. NOW.
as a tank player I am NOT coming back until they really address the tank survival and stop/interrupt problems. Benefit of a doubt ok, but the real problems are not even addressed here-
They are making the game for the sweats, and the casuals and semi-casuals are being pushed out. Ion has been at this for a while now. Every time a piece of content sees alot of participation, Ion makes it significantly harder. Like how a lot of people did mythic raiding back in BFA, so Ion made raids hard in Shadowlands and a lot of people just quit raiding and focused on M+. Then he saw how many people did M+ back in Dragonflight, so he made M+ really hard in TWW, and another lot of people quit M+ altogether.
Ion Hazzikostas is slowly and surely driving people away from the game as he focuses the content on the sweatlords. This is why new players aren't even coming in and those who do sure as hell aren't staying for long.
funny cause they are failing to even make the game fun for high end players. my 2 friends and I normally pug up to what is now considered a 16-17 but keys feels so miserable. I miss bfa season 4 so much :(
Stop making this a sweats vs casual fight for fucks sake. Even the sweats dislike the current gameplay loop. Other players are not your boogeyman.
So blizzard creates problem. Players complain. Blizzard "acknowledges" that thing feels bad. Player praise blizzard for "listening". Rinse, repeat. Theyve been saying the same thing for a decade but norhing evwr changes. Players want to play one way and blizzard wants players to play a completely different way. Until blizzard lets go of that this game will never get better.
yup between the coding out of spite and ego and the few trolls fronting as giga players wanting to keep there fake trophy's its gonna be this same song and dance. idk how anyone heard the nothing burger responses ion said and got any hope that he gives a shit
Admitting issues? Promising to address problems? Actually listening to feedback? How many times did we read this exact same article before, last time being dragonflight. How about less PR talk, more results ?
Yet dungeon changes looks like they are doubling down on worst parts
6:45
@@SmugHomuraand yet those were still changes they made after 6 months of complaint
@@danielharvey3662 It's on PTR. It's not live. They can test what they want on there. When the game director tells you in clear terms what the goal is, maybe understand that not every PTR patch note is going to be a 1:1 reflection of that because that's not how game development works. Give your feedback and move on.
This is my take on Mythic+ as multi 0.1% title holder IN A PUG - no comms.
I think that the biggest issue with mythic+ is that it released as something you do and can push through while waiting for that one or two days of a raid. Or, if you are a casual, who does not want to, or cannot, spend hours playing. Go in, go out, 30 minutes, done. Because there really had not been anything challenging to do before mythic+ released in terms of PvE.
BUT! The higher you go, the less you can play. To a point, where it takes even several hours to be either accepted to a key, or to have people of equivalent skill join your key. And it gets even worse if you are not a meta slave. And thus the whole purpose of mythic+ has been defeated.
Mythic+ should IMHO be COMPLETELY RANDOM solo mode. Or it should have a solo mode with separate rankings. You would queue up for it the same way you do for heroic dungeons, you would get random 3 DPS, 1 Heal, 1 Tank of any class from the people that are in the queue based on their Raider.IO. Let's say it would be brackets of 100 score that would play together.
This way you could come online for those 30 minutes after you come home from your 9-5 job, play a competitive fun endgame mode without having to worry about meta slaving or finding people to play with. Go in, go out, have fun, over. And same as heroic dungeons, there would be rewards, SUPERB ones, for queing as a Heal or a Tank, increasing in value based on score. ( of course you would need that rio to be done on that particular role )
They ran me off. Raiding, mythic plus is just not feasible for me to do anymore. I don't want to invest the time required it's too much.
It’s because they only listen to content creators who play 8 hours a day 😂 most of the changes for Season 2 are aimed at 10 or higher keys
@@Kublai2000 most if them even thing the gammes borked rn
I’ve healed tanked and dps this season. There’s 2 types of groups in m+. Those that could run keys at a higher level and those that are permanent single digit key runners. Nothing wrong with either group it’s just drastically different players. Blizz needs to cater more toward lower key runners. All the upcoming changes are only for higher key runners.
Also did all class as you did. And 200% agree with your statement. They need to chill on helping the 1% they are sweaters they will handle 1 season with less focus.
I really don't get why blizzard don't want to allow any big pull for normal players. Absurd bolt overlap, stupid channeling, crazy spiky AOE with unfair target capping.
Because of people like me that find constant big pulls (otherwise known as zerging) to be completely uninteresting and boring. Every dungeon turns into the same mesh of large pulls that people AoE down. it's good when dungeons like CoT or Ara kara have areas where you can mass pull, but that shouldn't be the norm. It also inflates the value of AoE classes and those who have AoE CC like in the past. Having ST or priority damage should matter and in the past it rarely did.
@@SmugHomura noone wants every pull to be big, but you need a good mix of more chill and fun pulls and technical pulls, if every single pull in a 30min dungeon is super complicated it´s just soo taxing to play through. I´m exhausted after tanking 2-3 dungeons or healing them because you need to stay focused 100% for 30min each. That´s just ridiculous, there´s a reason they did go away from 15min raid endbosses, because staying looked in for much more than 10min at a time is just not fun for terribly long.
@@SmugHomurain dragonflight, the main premise of shadow and fire being so strong (aside from being overtuned) was that they could do huge aoe damage through smashing damage into one singular priority target. Priority damage hasn’t been important? Huh?
@@Eulrich "noone wants every pull to be big" there definitely is a vocal group of people that want this, just saying. But yeah I agree they need to tone down trash complexity. However I do think they need to keep these anti-cluster mechanics like Bloddguards reducing damage taken by allies, mobs buffing others mobs, etc. because otherwise reduced mob complexity means going back to pulling all trash until the boss every time.
@@liamdavies2823 Yeah the only reason those 2 specs got brought (apart from buffs and utility) is because they did mass AoE on top of priority damage. Maybe saying 'priority damage isn't important' wasn't exactly correct but you would never bring a prio/ST focused class if they also couldn't do mass AoE. If you have a bunch of mass AoE classes and some of them also have prio damage, of course you're going to pick the one that has both. But the requirement there is the AoE, not the prio damage.
I'd like to M+ be more rewarding, Hero track item and 1 Myth track item per week absolutely sucks and people like me who want to do M+ only and not care about raids are doomed, I don't see why dungeons like +13 can't drop Myth track. Also why do we have so many crests and valorstones? Can't it be like in Dragonflight, you get X score you can upgrade X item level items? Crests and valorstones are basically the same currency but having them both creates bottleneck for you so when you have one you will eventually run out of another.
Nothing about addressing the tank/healer shortage. I think the Queue Simulator mechanic is the biggest M+ killer.... They should really address that
I think if you're not picked for a key within a minute or 2 then I remove myself and look for another group. As a dps player i find it hard to get into keys that I should be getting into so I end up running my own. Yesterday, I joined a +2 and it having to wait for 5 mins or more when plenty of people are looking to join is a joke. There is no need to have 20+ people in the LFG when there is only 1 spot to fill. Group leaders should accept or reject people faster.
Tank main here: people don't want to tank or heal because the players who chose dps have been the worst this game has ever seen up to this point and the community has 0 self awareness.
Yeah, I stopped playing M+ as DPS because it's not fun spending so much time sitting in Q. I'm fine with sitting at ++10 done for every dungeon. I'm playing next season purely because I like the goblin theme but if it wasn't for that, I'd have quit playing altogether.
@@Doodlebob563 And the good DPS don't want to play M+ because of how long it takes to get into a group.
We can keep going around in circles like this and blame each other but ultimately it's a systemic problem that Blizzard needs to solve somehow.
I became a tank for my guild's raid this season and decided to try and crossover to M+ as well. What a fucking time to try that shit. Probably turned me off to it forever.
I really hope that one day they make healing way easier. I fucking hate how brutally punishing the game is for pug healers.
Git gud. You crybabies got tanks nerfed this season because you were mad "tanks can solo the game" and you didn't want to help contribute any damage to the dungeon. This is what you get. Hopefully you just quit the game.
Healing will never be easier because even if Blizzard increased throughput, tanks would just pull more behind gogogo DPS.
The community time and time again is what ruins your fun, not blizzard. As soon as I stopped interacting with the community, the game became amazing for me.
This may he the reason why it takes forever to find a healer/tank when listing keys.
@@m_rod9562 Yep exactly. As a healer myself i mainly do keys as a premade group, which is infinitely easier as pugging.
I can do the same key in a +17 without too many problems (still hard to heal, but more cordinated) but when i try to pug it in a 12-13 i sometimes can't even do the key because people tend to not use defensives, externals, interrupts etc.
Stuff like that really wants somebody to just leave mid-key but that's not helping anybody unfortunately.
Healing difficulty depends on group strength mostly. My +10 keys are night and day based on the power of the dps and tank. You can feel carried sometimes because of this, which takes a lot of agency away from climbing in pugs. You don’t know if it was you or the group. Sometimes you know but in pug you mostly don’t know group strength beyond group leader and who you look up on raiderio.
I still think loot starvation was one of the worst parts, i had multiple friends simply quit the season after a 4 week drought from chest, should have made +12 give myth track loot.
They really need some form of BLP for loot. I went 6 weeks in a row of full 10+ vault with taking tokens because I got nothing that was an upgrade. I had to use those tools on gold because I was already full on sockets due to earlier weeks getting no upgrades. Until last week I still had a champ tier neck slot. I know I could get one crafted, but that's not cheap and I don't think it's the right answer.
Preaching!!! Ámen 🙏
dont worry bro they are adding renown track with dinar for raid!! get fucked m+ players, once again
Yep, no myth track from m+ is totally absurd, you don’t get rewarded for doing high tier content at all, so for most people it will be an easy question - why even bother progressing if you are not mythic raider, since at one point you’ll be at such disadvantage from them, that if you are running only m+ it will kill the desire to progress. And with the 20 man must have, 99% of people, inlcuding me will not even try it even though I’d like to do so. I don’t mind investing the time in the game, but relying on so many people in order to do a piece of content is ridiculous in today’s world
I think one major thing that i have not seen anyone saying I think the jump from Mythic to Mythic + was really punishing in the first few days. and the progression to 8 is crazy and stressful! DF vs TWW the lvl to get better gear is a strain! this needs to change to more relaxing mood like DF
I'm finding this from 11s to 12s, 11s is pretty much a lay up now with a good group, everytime I try to pug a 12 without fail will brick in the first 5-10 mins
Ok
If only it didn't take them a whole season to start listening! My whole crew quit playing around week 10, I followed 2 weeks later. Not coming back until M+ is fixed, it's the only thing I like in the game.
There's more to WoW than M+ 😂
If ya are just playing for that, you're ultimately wasting your subscription fee.
@@RandoCDN87 like what lol? pvp is in the gutter, mythic raiding has too many absurdly stupid restraints like lockouts/20 man, everything else in the game is just mind numbing completionist stuff. oh wow the siren isles!! what a sick minipatch, the game is saved :DD
@@jaded-harper i agree with jaded here, wow actually has nothing to offer for a mid core player besides m+ lol
@@Melissaxoxox exactly, outside of m+ a game like ff does everything else better lol. an actual coherent story/world that feels alive/roleplay/transmog etc.. the list is endless really, wow is just such a prehistoric game really
@@RandoCDN87 To me M+ is the only good content in the game. I love tanking high keys. There is literally no other game that has that kind of content and it's arguably what keeps the game alive. I'm perfectly happy doing 20-30 hours of M+ per week when the season is good, even selling a token per week for consumables if needed, idc, but they massacred the game mode and it needs fixing really bad right now. Everything else in the game, even SWTOR does better.
Quests/leveling is more boring than watching grass grow; delves are no better. PvP is a smurf-infested, queue-dodging game now.
I main tank and raid tanking is incredibly easy and boring until the 5th mythic boss but I don't have a mythic raid team anymore and all good teams are always full of tanks anyway, plus I don't want to spend 9-12 hours raiding per week on top of pushing high keys with my static group.
So if they were aware of how bad it is, what was the process leading to the data mined changes? Do the designers start their work day going "Alright management said we're bringing back dungeons X Y and Z, never played them but let's blanket buff all mob abilities by a bunch and throw up some post saying we're trying to make it feel in line with modern dungeons"? Also still curious how they want to un-fuck Darkflame Cleft
I'm still baffled by them putting Darkflame Cleft into the pool, instead of just having Operation: Floodgate be the 4th TWW Dungeon for this Rotation and pick up some DF or Legion Dungeon for more variety.
My biggest issue with this season is that it just feels like they made 2 steps forward with dragonflight and then took 6 steps back with war within, and blizzard does this time and time again. It feels like they felt like people werent staying subbed long enough from the last expansion because of gear acquisition and decided they needed to nerf everything again. This has also become the most unfriendly pug season ever with how important deaths are, on top of the early key levels not mattering but are still needed for score, and learning the dungeon, but the gear sucks and isn't worth doing.
Also I think this season kind of proves a point i've been saying to my friends for awhile. That the tank/healer role needs to be reworked. It isn't okay that a tank and healer have to play basically perfect at all times, because if you press one wrong button it can mean a wipe for the group. Where if a dps presses one wrong button it just means they do a little less dmg or only they die. Those roles just feel way harder than they need to be for no reason.
almost like they should listen to their alpha testers LOL "OH WHOOPS YEAH WERE SORRY" once the playerbase is dying...cmon...ion is a cancer...lawyer speak to placate the only people still playing...
@3:30 yeah ion says having a strong meta like that is a problem so they..... nerf the only other tank that's kinda meta into the ground? they can say whatever they want but if they keep making poor decisions it won't matter
Increase the Mythic level step to 1 to 20 as before. There are many problems when you do it to 1 to 10. For example, people who want to join the 9th and 10th steps are crowded to one place, so there is a problem, and it's much better in terms of fun because it takes longer to challenge when you do it to 1 to 20.
That's why they did the squish. To push the M+ population together. They had said nobody would run 5s or 6s because 7s were the best breakpoint for Crest Farms. 8s 9s 10s 11s 12s 13s were also rarely ran as well. If you had a 19? You'd be sitting in que for awhile to form that group. 18s we're slightly easier and 19s didn't give any better rewards, aside from IO. At least with this system, every key matters (Somewhat). It took some time to get used to but it feels fine now.
@ to push the m+ population Together cause the problems if you are not a meta it takes 30~50 minutes to join the goddamn group. Why? Too many competitions Even though u have enough ability to play dungeons, there is a lot of competition, so it's hard to play the game because U compete with people with higher gear levels or higher io players
@@dimmune6860 Also it makes the 2-10 keys more relevant because we are no longer upgrading +3 at the start of the season.
They need to work harder at balancing the classes. It cannot be that even for m+8 you do not get invited because you are not meta. This is really frustrating. And they need to make certain abilities more wide spread between the classes. Some classes have tons of utility while others have nearly nothing. Sadly the ones with the utility are the ones with the big damage as well. Let’s take the warrior: they nerfed them after some weeks of looking good damage-wise, while palas seems to be meta for months. BL would be a good addition to warriors, while fitting their lore. The old “‘bring the player, not the spec” should be the top priority for the designers. Sadly they seem to need months and months to do minor adjustments that don’t help at all.
That's just a players being dumb issue. Every specc can clear a +12 with ease. The fact that there are differences in viability in high m+ should not mean you have to play "meta" in +8, but it does, because the people putting the group together are dumb. Blizzard can't fix that, it will always be in the game (apart from making "solo queue" kind of a concept, but then we're not talking about players choosing anything). The only solution for you is to find some players to play with...
Looking at current average and max dps for single splash and heavy aoe, Ret are not the top dps at all. This is kind of what Ion was talking about when he said its about player perception. A ton of people play ret (8% in M+) because the damage profile is good where you have big burst on a 30 second CD which means you don't have packs you feel useless, its a relatively simple spec to play so you can focus on mechanics, it is mid range so not as punishing when it comes to melee mechanics, it shares a a class with he top tank so you can off tank as well when you want, and yes a huge part of it is the utility between Brez, LoH, BoP, BoS FoM and a poison dispel ret is great at being consistently good, not over the top broken or even great.
Don't get me wrong Warrior does need some utility because that is where it is lacking. When I create a group I'm looking to fill Brez and hero than whatever other utility that is dungeon specific like a poison dispel. If you can do more than one of these you are probably getting into the group. Hell I don't even think about damage as in +11 or under every spec can be brought. Which is why in a dungeon like AK you bring a Ret: they fill the poison dispel, a stun for the call, and can Brez as well as BoP the first hit on the second boss (can one shot tanks going in on higher keys and puts the dot on the first person with agro) and FoM the healer (priest) on the last boss so they don't get stunned. That is a lot of utility to give up on to bring a warrior who has shout and a stun.
@ I was speaking about pala tanks. As Quazii said, most of the high level dungeons are done with a pala as tank.
@@raul834 Ah yes well there is definitely an issue as they have high damage, tons of utility and active mitigation for days. Plus full spell block and 40+ interrupts per dungeon which is pretty insane as well.
@ yes, this is exactly what I did. But it is design problem. Classes are so imbalanced that people creating the groups think that the chances of completing are higher with the so-called meta ones. And having different abilities like dispels for magic, poison or diseases means you need special classes for them. This does not add any fun to the dungeon, but narrows the classes that can help.
WE NEED MYTH GEAR FROM M+ HIGH KEYS!!! RAIDS GET INSTANT LOOT BUT M+ PLAYERS ONLY WAIT FOR WEEKLY VAULT 1 ITEM RNG!!!
Listen to this man!!! he is preaching!!!
all they need to do is acknowledge that there are a lot of ppl who only want play m+ and have gear that drops in m+ behave like pvp gear. it gets +ilvl whenever you are in a dungeon
It's really quite as simple as just removing the 15 second death penalty. 5 lines of code and a 5mb hotfix is all it would take to immediately fix 95% of the problems with M+, and the playerbase has been screaming this at them since week 1. The only logical explanation is that some of the senior developers who clearly don't play their own content are too stubborn to admit they were wrong and refuse to change it. Tale as old as time.
if you want a "quick and easy fix", it's definitely not the death penalty that's the big problem. if anything, it would be reverting the change so that stops act like a kick again.
but there are more problems right now, let's not act like those are the only ones.
No, it's not that simple. M+ has glaring issues that aren't going to be fixed with just one tweak like that.
its an easy fix but not for blizzard. WoW sourcecode is so blouded with everything on top of each other that a simple change effects stuff down to "vanilla". a recent example is the mass cc nerf. it caused some Mobs in WotlK to one shot you because a line in the code, it messed up the 50-60 leveling area, but it took them days to discover this bug because nobody levels in those zones anymore and nobody encountered those mobs in retail for years.... WoW is a mess of a Game that needs a reset and its not a secret at all.
You make tanks and healers feel rubbish, coupled with frustrating dungeons, not quite sure what they were expecting… Really looking forward to the great hpal changes come s2 /s
Fuck.. and I mean this as disrespectfully as possible.. the devs and their lack of response to feedback
I really question the decision making of those in charge of game design. I would have taken the literal opposite take of every philosophical decision they have made. Hamstringing game modes to "revisit" or "fix them later" is getting old, especially for a game with a subscription cost.
Until Blizzard developers play their own game, NONE of these problems will disappear. It is obvious the devs don't play their own game. Bad affix combinations, poor class balance, poor dungeon balance.. All of these stem from devs not fundamentally understanding how their own game plays. This has been a problem for YEARS now. Do I hope Blizzard "fixes" things? YES. Are they going to do it? NO.
1) I’m sure they do play their own game, the problem is M+ is mythic content and not intended to be PUGed at higher levels. Nobody is PUGing mythic raids. It’s content that requires voice communication and coordination to go smoothly.
2) class balance is fine at lower keys. At higher ones in infinitely scaling content even a 1% difference becomes huge. What you’re wanting is impossible. And again…since this isn’t intended to be PUGed, for example the class that can cleanse all poison with a totem wins because it’s brainless and doesn’t require coordination. Same with aug. Blanket brainless utility wins.
most of you guys fundamentally DONT understand game design, yet alone m+. what you want is so far from reality, calling you a dreamer is an understatement. high m+ is not for everyone and shouldnt be for everyone. i am not gatekeeping, but you have to somewhat "study" the game in order to play at a high level. low m+ is "fine", and i say that loosely. there are universal problems that affect low m+ and high m+ to the same degree. at high m+ its more punishing.
@@kevinc8955 1. they should make it puggeable cus a LOT of people wanna pug it. They should make pugging better and easyer. Remove raid id. 2 perfect balance is hard, agree. But they could do better.
@@sinnis4993 Just to point out the obvious here, but the numbers being represented for participation rates and the general negativity around M+ isn't just high level M+. The idea that low m+ is "fine" is not paying attention to the feedback but making assumptions about the feedback. I don't know who is claiming that you shouldn't have to invest time and effort into high level m+. The complaint about investment into learning is typically coming from low and mid level M+ where people just want to run dungeons but they are expected to know routes, pulls and every mechanic of every mob. These mechanics are more punishing FOR YOU at higher levels, but when you start scaling player skill up and down, these mechanics are just as punishing at lower M+ as higher M+.
Part of game design is understanding the scope of your target playerbase and being able to accurately reflect it. This has been a major problem with Blizzard for the last few years as it seems each content patch is made for a smaller and smaller target playerbase and the people that aren't part of that target playerbase are jumping ship while the ones that the game is designed for are also not liking it.
@ a lot of words just so I can say „if blizzard designs m+ for a small part of the community and they don’t like it, blizzard ain’t designing it for them“
So what is your point again? Blizzard is most definitely not designing m+ for top 1%.
Mechanics ain’t punishing in low level m+. Sorry to burst that bubble. Players in lower levels just refuse to roughly learn boss fights or important kicks, which is required since the implementation of m+. Blizzard can’t fix stupid. Simple as that. The WoW community is entitled like no other community and it’s disgusting. That’s why there will always be an outcry.
S3 dragonflight is hailed as one of the best seasons. One of the reasons is: it was easy, like really easy. You didn’t need to press a single def cd until tyrannical +28. at that level mechanics would simply 1shot you.
I have absolutely no faith whatsoever that they are willing or competent enough to truly fix M+. First thing they should have done is revert the stops change on mob casting, but it seems like that's a hill they're ready to let M+ die on and I can't decide whether it's ego or incompetence.
Well, for starters, they can make it so that interrupts and CC's actually DO SOMETHING in M+, as opposed to being largely unimpactful because of mobs spam casting anyways (and just having to pray your healer can immediately top you before the next cast hits someone for another 90% hp). This is the first thing that needs to be addressed NOW before they do anything else. Interrupts need to be more effective, and the number of casters need to be kept in check, and "spam casters" need to not exist.
The biggest issue with this is they made CC not count as an interrupt so they’ll just spam cast after their CC runs out. What I see usually happening is someone with stun/cc the mob right before someone interrupts so when the cc wears off the start casting again and oops now we don’t have an interrupt not on CD. Not a problem if I’m with a guild group on voice but just another way they screwed pugs.
My concern is how did it even get into a build. I'll have to see how it plays out, there has been an issue of class design and encounter design people are not in synch. The results is dungeons that feel bad.
They will be able to have the awareness they want, adopt all the changes they want, for me it's too late I have already left the game and I don't plan to come back, the money/pleasure ratio doesn't matter. is simply worth the cost (subscription, extension, etc.). Blizzard has neglected for too long (always in fact lol) the "pusher/hardcore" players of mythic+, as well as the difficulty of finding team mates or a team, enough is enough, Dragonflight was and will be my last expansion, because Blizzard no longer deserves my money. And to be honnest, when I see what mythic+ becoming, i'm even more happy that I left, it saved me from much frustration against them.
At this point, just turn keys back into Dynasty Warriors. Let us pull massive and pew pew it all down.
Uncap everyone!
people are overlooking the primary issue: key depletion- i am much more inclined to invite off meta and worse players to my keys if im not punished for doing so. The high teir of m+ is almost all people that do not work or have a very agile work environment because they can allocate so many more hours to "homework keys" this system being removed along with their implementation of non-rotational affixes will really stabilize the upper 20% of keys
Like many others here, I'll believe it when I see it. I never got to experience DF as I came in at the least season, although people praised it a lot and seemed to think it was going in the right direction. Some issues I've found with M+ that I brought up before:
- Tanks too squishy, would be great to see Tanks be able to take a hit again
- Healers don't feel as 'Healy' depended on as previously, sometimes it feels like the DPS are more responsible for keeping themselves alive with defensives than relying on the healer
- Would like the 15 sec death penalty gone, ideally
- Enemy insta casting right after a kick is feckin annoying, wish they never added this
- Being a Fury Warr main I would love to see warriors get Bloodlust so we get invited to dungeons more, but not gonna hold my breath!
I'm not crazy about key depletion but at least they've addressed it to an extent - reaching a certain score/attaining an achievement will prevent key depletes under +12's - however I don't see why they couldn't just move keys to a delve tier system as well, where you select the difficulty on entering the dungeon. I think removing depletes completely would go someway to removing M+ toxicity in general.
All in all, there are some in the M+ community that have the attitude of 'git gud, stop being a crybaby' which is fine - I'm all for brutal difficulty at times and making you sweat, that's part and parcel of M+. Its also what can make M+ thrilling - danger lurking around every corner or encounter and, when a team is on form and cutting through a dungeon countering every mechanic thrown at them, its a blast... but regarding the 'git gud' attitude, we have to keep in mind the game is an MMO. Its not just made to cater to the top 0.1% of players who are badass, there should be opportunities for players of varying skill levels to participate.
I feel like the difficulty arc is a bit all over the place, I can hold my own in an 11 but when I get to 12's its almost certainly going to be a brick, if I'm Pugging it anyway. Maybe a skill issue on my part, not sure. I hope we see Blizz take M+ more seriously in the coming seasons.
M+ is the only real reason i stay subbed. For the system to be in such a terrible state is honestly just depressing.
"completely understand" in blizzard terms means "we got a rough idea that there might be a problem perhaps that we may attempt to slightly fix in the next 1-2 years"
Here's the problem , people complained how strong tanks were in dragonflight , of course dh's majority, now most tanks especially for newer players feel liek they cant survive/ heals cant keep them up . But the worst thing they did was the key squish. When u have keys from 10 all the way to 20+ in drgonflight , each key lvl can be scaled alot more fairly , now once u go froms ay 10/11 to 12-13 its a crazy jump . Just revert back to way it was in dragonflight , and if your going to make seasonal affixes , plz blizzard use your brain. Who thought 'yeah lets make players soak orbs flyin in from all directions ' yeah so am i gonna do that on the second boss of ara'kara just for example. This 'squished' system is shit , and i would rather do 12's currently and avoid the seasonal affix crap atm . Thanks for the vid Quazii WoW
"Oh the datamined stuff is not final" How about you don't start with changes that will instantly make people want to NOT PLAY? Is it really that hard?
They didn’t . Those are not even in the game lol😂
It’s been over two decades since they entered the game design business, and they still can’t seem to balance Mythic+ and classes/specs. It’s frustrating.
When Elemental and Enhancement Shamans can pull over 10M DPS on the first pull with cooldowns, while other classes and specs struggle to hit similar numbers even with their cooldowns, it's clear there's an imbalance.
When you're playing a class with Bloodlust/Combat Res and spend over 30 minutes signing up for groups only to be repeatedly declined because the "meta" classes (like Shamans and Boomkins) are preferred, it's another sign of a problem.
When a healer like Resto Shaman has an interrupt on a 15-second cooldown, while a Priest has none, that's a clear imbalance as well.
When most casters have an interrupt on a 21-24 second cooldown (with Shadow Priest’s Silence being 45 seconds), but Elemental Shamans have one on just a 15-second cooldown, it forces players to choose specific classes over their favorites just to get invited to Mythic+ groups.
When a class like Ret Paladin has little to no cooldowns on every pack, while other classes struggle with cooldowns on alternate packs, it becomes really frustrating. I've played M+ during the TWW season 1 for over 3 months, and in that time, I’ve met one Ret Paladin with great gear (637) who didn’t pull aggro. Over 90% of Ret Paladins I encounter in 10+ keys constantly pull aggro, die, blame the tank, and leave the group, often bricking the key in the process. I don’t understand why this hasn’t been addressed yet.
This list could go on, but it’s clear to me that Ion Hazzikostas and the design team don’t seem to have a handle on these issues, despite their long history in game design.
My two cents…. TWW season 1 is simply way too unforgiving. No room for error. 618 ilevel guardian Druid with CDs popped getting one shot multiple times in + 4 SV is just dumb. Poor design imo. Too much of that going on. Technically I’m in a +4 to get champion gear. I have a lot of hero gear and it simply doesn’t matter. Still getting blasted and dying to magic I can’t defend.
That’s one reason this season is such a pug killer and unforgiving for those who don’t have a steady group to play with. I’ve played M+ almost since it released and this is one of the least enjoyable seasons for me as healer main.
Honestly if you're dying in a +4 it's a skill issue. Sorry to burst your bubble
That sounds like a you problem. I can tank +4 SV on my 590 ilvl Bear. Sure it get's rough on some pulls. But still not dying anywhere (except if the healer fucks up the dispell on 1st boss).
Stonevault.. would it be the seismic smash that one shots you? Because I suspect the mechanic is being done wrong. Your debuff needs to stay on untill just before the smash, so you get the damage reduction the dispel gives you to survive it.
Ok there are non elite mobs in there ( that’s the hallway) easy to pull a pack of eight. And a lot of death…. I’m probably doing something way wrong. Maybe the healer dispelled me or something ? Help a brother out ….
They are going back to their comfort zone, “Pally OP?, nerf warrior.” When tanks with no utility are op, all tanks get play. When a Utility tank is op, only that tank is played
I mean Blizzard can't be trusted when it comes to M+; tww season 1 proved this by them telling us why they changed tank and healers, we told them it was a bad idea and they ignored. They said we want to fix defensive bloat and they did the opposite. This is just another stack on the promises with no follow through pile in an attempt to do damage control. They've killed m+ for long term m+ players/title pushers for the sake of trying to make WF keys, MDI and TGP "more enjoyable" to watch...
As a tank main: The biggest issue by far this season has been the fact that dungeons asked a little more out of the players and they absolutely fuckin folded. The amount of times I've seen dps and heals brick keys in dungeons that are almost a decade old is staggering. People got too accustomed to no brain dungeon runs. Look at all the people who are incapable of interrupting and tell me I'm wrong.
Hazikostas is one of the main problems of this game,and his "mistakes" at this point are intentional
Well, i´m very worried not seeing any tank and healer changes yet. You need players willing to fill these roles for the system to be healthy. Everything else is secondary. Tanking just sucks bad this saison. And even though i like healing, it´s also way too punishing and has an insane barrier of entry where you really have a steep learning curve because most healers have no way to deal with the incoming dmg reactively and have to be prepared beforehand.
I healer mained for most of my wow life but did some tanking as well. Stepping into the tank role in this season was a big nope for me. I’m with you in enjoying healing but a lot of the time you just can’t keep up. I can save some encounters that go sideways in pugs but usually one or more will die in less then a global lol. It’s much too punishing and they need to go back to the 1 -20 key range and have the start of the keys be less punishing again.
I just wonder where the blitz of the Addon start went. Like we went from weekly changes and tuning to literally nothing
One thing that confuses me is why they don't look back at previous M+ seasons like DF S3 and how successful it was and take the good from that to mix with the new. Instead they seem to throw out all the good things they do. So far with the buffs some of the M+ dungeons are getting they very obviously didn't learn anything and this season is going to be cooked before it gets started if nothing changes. We have an issue with tanks being one shot by white hits and they buffed certain monsters to do more to tanks anyway?! Seriously its a cruel joke lol. They need to remove challengers peril and go back to 5 seconds a death and give us reasonable times to clear a dungeon. Put gilded in M+8 then M+9 gives mythic gear in vault and M+10 is portals. The changes they're doing on the outside looked good at first then they sprinkle in buffs for the new dungeons that will make it worse than it already was lol. A healthy M+ scene is one where more casual players can work there way up to 10 and become a better player. For those like myself who want more of a challenge we can just push the keys much higher who cares if the keys go up a bit.
Good to know they're listening. Let's hope they actually will make changes based on that and not in typical Blizz fashion in last patch of expansion to fix issues that were reported during prepatch PTR. And if they're actually listening, then maybe they'll finally get rid of mythic raid lockouts mid season as well. There's no point in keeping them 2 months into raid and would definitely help with keeping people engaged in pugs. Because currently if your group disbands after 1st boss you're done with raiding for that week. Engagement numbers drop. I'm buffled why this is still a thing.
As a healer, I would really like to see the removal of dispel mechanics from the weekly affixes. Having to remove that and other deadly mechanics like debut on the last boss in SoB is base treachery.
For real, especially when the regular boss mechanic already requires one more dispel then you have. Toss in the affix right before that mechanic and it turns nightmarish real quick.
The problem I have is that I'm very skeptical that the PTR builds are ACTUALLY from a while ago, because given how the community sentiment has been (and this has been constant from the start) why wouldn't they make those changes before shipping a PTR. This sounds like corporate speak for "community sentiment is bad, we need to placate them" and they'll do what they always do, release it in a BS state only to "fix" it a few weeks / months later and expect loud praise for doing what they should have done in the first place.
All of this could be solved if they just actually spoke to players and did something like a 'live letter' every patch like the Final Fantasy team does, rather than sit in their ivory tower while the unwashed playerbase suffers. Player perception is a problem of their own making, they followed the best expansion up with a massive series of L's (with a few small W's mixed in) and now they're on the back foot scrambling to pull the ship up from sinking.
The design goals for Mythic+ have absolutely nothing about fun, if they were they wouldn't have made half the changes they did, the design goals seem that they're developing the mode with ONLY high key pushers in mind (and seems they're even failing at that) and they're driving the every day playerbase out of the mode and even in many cases out of the GAME.
The game designers are so out of touch with the players that actually play the game, the mode is so negative in its entire DNA that it promotes negativity and toxicity and the pressure is so high that, why would anyone want pay to do this in their own time after work. Sure, maybe this might work for those who the game is their job, but that's not the majority of the playerbase.
In the wise words of Varok: "You... Just.. Keep... Failing..."
It’s such a shame because I think in terms of class design, Blizzard are absolutely killing it. Im a bit of an Altaholic and I’ve been blown away by how brilliant most of the specs are right now.
It’s just the content itself and the system design which is really letting that down.
As a new WOW player it also feels that it has way too many buttons (and cases when) you must press. I feel like it's not only M+ design itself but also class/buttons complexity. Add to this addons requirements, macros knowledge and I don't know if I am really playing a game or I am some sort of part time computer scientist.
If I have to wait more than 10 minutes to get into a key as a dps playing WoW is simply a waste of time. I have a few hours a day max and can't play in a premade group. They need to find a way how you can casually play difficult content. Right now I would rather play different games instead of sitting in queue for the majority of time just to get invited to a group.
I couldnt push this season at all as rdruid. Sometimes 8hr queue and 1637281 declines. NOT A SINGLE INV or decent applys. Made it to 3.1 wich is a joke and logged out. Im done, if S2 is the same im out for real. Inc rdruid changes are sussy af, so prob im doomed again. GGs
You can make your group you know.
If it takes that long you will be better off just learning to lead
@@havtor007 i did list my own key aswell. Result was 38263662 meta boosted slaves or non meta classes in queue and literally only braindead, leftover shit tanks. If youre trash youre left with the trash, literally. Once your key is depleted to lower than 13, gl with upping it again with no decent people in your own queue. Only people who didnt timed they key already are in queue, because why should u reroll ur key with non meta healer. Easier sad than done to just list ur own key as non meta. Depleted my own keys sometimes 1 pull due of absolut trash tanks who cant even manage the easiest mechanics. The only way to actually time something was getting inv into a pug with equal io exp.
2:54 shows what's really wrong with tanking now. 100% to 5% in .2 sec with your shield rolling on a 3 pack pull. That shouldn't happen period. I I didn't even see a tank buster or anything.
Too little to late, the healer issues has been going on since DF.
In DF it was not as bad, not even close. I had zero problems in DF doing 25-28's (and 17+ in S4), but when TWW launched the oneshots there were was extremly bad.
IMO blizz has been catering m+ specifically to the title range of players, rather than the broader m+ community, and thats the problem. Lemme preface my opinions with my M+ history. I have played m+ religiously since BFA S1. it is the ONLY reason I play wow. I am not a title player, even tho I do try, and i typically end seasons 1-2 key levels below title.
I feel like what is making m+ so unfun rn is that thee difficulty curve is getting steeper and steeper, at a lower and lower level. Things require extreme gruop coordination at a relatively loww level, which pretty much requires a premade to even attempt. now, im not suggesting that pugging should be a viable option for title/WF keys, but premades shouldn't feel mandatory 3/4/5 levels below title/WF. there are far too many 1 shot mechanics, and mechanics that rely too heavily on team mates, rather than skilled individual play. an example might be 1st boss in SV, tank buster. at a decently low level, a tank has 0 agency on surviving the hit, and relies entirely on the healer being aware of the DR thee dispel gives, and timing it accordingly. plenty of mid level healers dont even know that thats a mechanic.
my other issue (and yes im a little bbiased as a healer main) is that there is FAR too much pressure on tanks andd healers, and not nealry enough on dps players. im sure plenty of people will disagree with this, but imo the tank and healeer gameplay should be smoothed out. tanks should be nearly unkillable, and rather their primary job should be routing, pulling correctly, and controlling mobs. healers should obviously have to heal, BUT it should feel like 110% focus nonstop high octane OH SH*T moments from start to finish. and more focus should instead be put on dps by being much stricter on timers. the inherent design of m+ scaling means people wwill ALWAYS hit a difficulty level that reequires coordinated group play and exeecution, so forcing that in with mechanics, healer and tank nerfs, boss buffs, etc feels unecessary and makes the experieence for the broader community much wworse.
As long as they don't make tanks and healers much more enjoyable to play nothing will change. Especially healers. I loved healing back in the olden days. Yes I still was respnsible for 5-xx of the dumbest people on earth (WoW DPS Players) but at least that was it. Now I have heal, deal damage and interrupt using 20 different AddOns and see maybe 5 pixels of my screen because someone threw up a rainbow between all by AddOn bars. And of course I'm still at fault if dumb, dumber and dumbest die happly pressing the spacebar standing in 3 different colors of said rainbow.
We don’t have to give them the benefit of the doubt. We’ve been saying there’s something wrong for a long time and they said no there’s not. They’re only saying there is a problem because everyone is leaving the game for PoE2 or Marvel Rivals.
It would be interesting if they add a follower version of Mythic Plus, but I doubt they will do it. I'll stick with open world and delves,raids once a while
Can anyone clarify about the depletion of keys. I heard squishy say it was no key drop in depletion and then if 2850 io is reached, another reward of no key level dropping below 12. Everytime I read the paragraph quote from blizzard, it sounds like depletions of key level will drop and ONLY if u obtain 2850 does it not drop. Confusing. Any info is appreciated.
Yup get 2850 mate. Have fun
I havn't seen anyone bring up the issue that all you get (gearwise) after a couple of weeks is essentially a one armed bandit pull a week. I don't want to raid, atleast give the potential to drop a mythic track piece per different dungeon ran at +12 on a weekly lockout. Motivate people to run different dungeons and match the gear acquisition potential of raid.
I think it would be great if they would even the base utility gap between specs a bit more. What I mean is, that every spec should have at least one interrupt (not stun, or knockback but actual interrupt) so that it doesn't become a factor when inviting certain classes or specs. It would also be great if all healers could dispell all debuffs in one form or another, as the healing requirement can change drastically if you can't dispell certain things. For tanks maybe something like a specific defensive against magic damage would be interesting.
Classes don't need to be all the same, I like how different they feel and play and damage and healing profiles don't have to be similar, but at least make sure everyone has the tools to deal with the mechanics thrown at you.
One week early in an expansion I did Mythic dungeons and did quite okay. Then I had almost no time to play due to work and when I got a bit more time again, everyone was at M+15 and it was impossible to find a group. Quit WoW for good and didn't look back.
Part of the M+ grind is also a bit of self-assessment and setting realistic goals and thresholds for oneself to be fair. A lot of the problems with M+ are driven by player behaviour, granted that behaviour may sometimes be a consequence of the game design by Blizzard.
Personally, I have minimal interest to push above +10s or +11s since the extra reward is only IO in contrast with an exponential increase in difficulty in 12s and above. I get that some people love the challenge and I think it's great for them. But after a day of work and chores, the last thing I need from a game is for me to have to study a pool of dungeons to know deadly abilities to kick, dodge or mitigate with defensives - and play almost perfectly so that I don't ruin the experience of 4 other people. I have accepted that for now whether it's due to skill, will or time, that is my limit. I would love being able to log in and just game (smash a key ideally, rather than brick it) but between long queues, leavers and highly strung players, pugging can put a real damper on your enjoyment to play.
With that said, when even high key pushers seem to have the same grievances, surely it's time for Blizzard to pay attention and adjust accordingly.
> agrees its bad
> makes it even worse on season 2
MEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
How many times have we heard that exact verbage before? I lost count.
Actions > Words and seeing the changes on the PTR I am no hopeful at all.
They should just add a queue to M+. Make the ques teirs. You have a 1-4 key, you can que for a 1, 5-8 a 5 and so on.. if the key is timed everyone gets their queued key up'd if it's not timed there is no penalty besides your key not getting upgraded.
M+ isn't just a time sink while playing but also trying to find a group for 20 mins having to be actively applying to not be invited is an absolute killer for someone who doesn't have a ton of time.
For me the stone cap made it so I couldn't upgrade a bunch of my gear and I stopped playing. The people who have 5-man consistent groups and can push higher coordinate keys have a huge advantage over those of us who use group finder. Most players use group finder or join with friends of ranging item level and abilities. The weekly caps are to protect raiding, but it severely hurts m+.
I'm from Australia playing on OCE servers. I mostly make my own groups. At the start it was fine and quick. Now I am gearing an alt and it's practically impossible to find OCE players to play with for 2 to 10s. These days it takes a good half hour to fill a group or more. And good luck joining pugs, need like 630 ilvl to get into a +8. I gave up on the alt - not worth it
you are 630 item level and want to go in a mythic 8, bro you need to be at least 637, definetly higher item level than having full crafted gear 636 and others slots myth track 6/6 minimum. This is the game players want mate. If you have a life and are not mythic raiding you shouldn't even think about mythic plus. The designers want to first you mythic raid then you go to mythic 8. after you are fully geared. You must likely new to this game XD
Also they bring in dungeons for the Season 2 which most of the player do not like. Great idea
I really love your positivity. There are not enough youtubers like you out there. Most of them are doom and gloom and hating on Blizzard. It's a breath of fresh air to have someone giving Blizz the benefit of the doubt. Especially this season when the devs have been listening to the community more than they ever have before.
I think a lot of the decline is the absence of key runners only doing them for the rewards (tokens, gear, stones etc). Now that those things are available elsewhere, people with limited time and/or dont really like M+ arent doing them. Its a natural drop off and not necessarily a bad thing as the people that ar eleft are the ones who care.
It’s basically first impression and reading the changes and sticking to timers and punishments just points at ptsd , which automatically kills any hype. The NPCs look so good but a bad start means just don’t start till next season for me , personal opinion.
So the perception vs reality thing is so frustrating as a tank and a dps player because when I play my tank I am literally trolling my group if I don’t play my paladin because it is so much better than anything else. The damage, group utility and the whole thing is just so much crazier than any other tank and for the dps side it’s crazy because the two specs that do damage do so much more damage on the highest end than other classes it’s insane
What blizzard says and what they do is usually the opposite, look at these tank changes they say in tww