This relates to exactly why I say that the building blocks, the jibengong of this line is structurally different to naturally give rise to a different result. The dantian action itself is very complicated; like trying to explain ocean tidal movement. Best to build the physics that allow it to occur rather than try to think about it.
The early videos of Feng Zhiqiang, available on youtube, from around 1980 clearly show some relationship and the great emphasis on circles, dantian action, and what we call xiongyao zhedie (chest and waist folding) that is unique to Chen FaKe and Chen Zhaokui's practices; something that is not a major facet of the village lines. If you watch, you can also have some insight into how that led to Feng Zhiqiang's later Hunyuan developments.
My general view is that 'most' teachers of Chen Taijiquan do not explain dantian rotation clearly because they don't really have the deeper skill themselves. For most of the mainstream lines, it is simply not their focus or even in their curriculum. Additionally, while we do focus on it, even I would not try to explain it, because it's not explainable. There's a LOT of foundational skill that must be built before such methods can be done or understood and then it comes naturally.
If you look further back, for example, at older videos of Feng Zhiqiang, Lei Muni, and Tian Xiuchen, you will also see some interesting similarities and get some insight into how things were taught. At that time all of those students of Chen FaKe were a bit more similar to Chen Zhaokui.
Hong Jusheng, however, was not with Chen FaKe for a long period of time, and apparently the bulk of his development he did on his own living far away from Chen FaKe only to return later, and admittedly his alterations or practice choices were due to that absence. Although the village lines teach what they call "xinjia", to understand what Chen FaKe and Chen Zhaokui really taught and practice, we have to look at his son and direct students. It is clearly something different.
This is great! Thanks for posting. I am a student of Gou Kongjie one of Zhaokui's Last disciples and have been learning Xinjia recently. The internal folding that Gongfutube talked of is really difficult to do and it seems rare to get some good footage of this method of practise so thank you so much! I Learnt village methods for 11 years and then I was lucky enough to meet my Shifu. The last two years have been mind blowing both spiritually and Martially!
Thanks for that... it's good to know that my own observations and experience of practice are pointing me in the right direction...I've definitely been drawn to do more standing and more foundation work... doing a lot of chansi gong has been an eye opener... as you say, opening and closing and attempting to focus and move moving from one's centre. Difficult... but the way to go... nice to have made contact.
Nice thread... I've long suspected that there is xiongyao zhedie (chest and waist folding) and some of the Chansi gong exercises of Master Feng feature these movements. It's frustrating that most teachers are appear reluctant to clearly explain dantian rotation. This kind of folding creates a similar feeling to the spine wave that one of my former teacher employed in his xingyiquan. I'm interested to know what elements of your current training have enabled you to make the great leap forward.
You can also find the Chen Zhaokui Taijiquan Association on facebook, but I cannot post the link here, and my own blog is in the video description as well. We should have a Chen Taijiquan discussion forum up and running soon as well. Do stay in touch.
Extremely interesting especially when compares this form to Master Feng Zhiqiang's hunyuan sets and his chansi gong training. I practice the Chen village forms, as my teacher has been taught by Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang, but I have been most interested by the taijiquan of Hong Junsheng and Master Feng's - both were a direct disciples of Chen Fake.
More of a little step. lol! As you say the Chansi Gong exercises are a big part of it. I was taught a softer more general approach whilst learning Laojia then as we began Xinjia he changed the silk reeling to include more internal undulations in the chest and making sure we kept whole body unity. I am still trying! lol! Also standing practise has helped. Strengthening Yi (mind) and informing the internal body of what to do i.e.. open and close, and circle deep within the body. Hope that helps.
I'd like to keep in touch... I've enjoyed this conversation and have been interested and impressed with Chen Erhu's approach for some time. Also you are friends with Milford Graves... I'm a fan and have several of his albums... it's most pleasing to know that he is deep into the arts.
It is quite similar just in terms of obvious superficial choreography, as it should be since they are both descendants of Chen FaKe's line. Beyond the superficial choreography though, the powers, structural and body methods are very very different.
This relates to exactly why I say that the building blocks, the jibengong of this line is structurally different to naturally give rise to a different result. The dantian action itself is very complicated; like trying to explain ocean tidal movement. Best to build the physics that allow it to occur rather than try to think about it.
The early videos of Feng Zhiqiang, available on youtube, from around 1980 clearly show some relationship and the great emphasis on circles, dantian action, and what we call xiongyao zhedie (chest and waist folding) that is unique to Chen FaKe and Chen Zhaokui's practices; something that is not a major facet of the village lines. If you watch, you can also have some insight into how that led to Feng Zhiqiang's later Hunyuan developments.
My general view is that 'most' teachers of Chen Taijiquan do not explain dantian rotation clearly because they don't really have the deeper skill themselves. For most of the mainstream lines, it is simply not their focus or even in their curriculum. Additionally, while we do focus on it, even I would not try to explain it, because it's not explainable. There's a LOT of foundational skill that must be built before such methods can be done or understood and then it comes naturally.
If you look further back, for example, at older videos of Feng Zhiqiang, Lei Muni, and Tian Xiuchen, you will also see some interesting similarities and get some insight into how things were taught. At that time all of those students of Chen FaKe were a bit more similar to Chen Zhaokui.
Hong Jusheng, however, was not with Chen FaKe for a long period of time, and apparently the bulk of his development he did on his own living far away from Chen FaKe only to return later, and admittedly his alterations or practice choices were due to that absence.
Although the village lines teach what they call "xinjia", to understand what Chen FaKe and Chen Zhaokui really taught and practice, we have to look at his son and direct students. It is clearly something different.
This is great! Thanks for posting. I am a student of Gou Kongjie one of Zhaokui's Last disciples and have been learning Xinjia recently. The internal folding that Gongfutube talked of is really difficult to do and it seems rare to get some good footage of this method of practise so thank you so much! I Learnt village methods for 11 years and then I was lucky enough to meet my Shifu. The last two years have been mind blowing both spiritually and Martially!
Thanks for that... it's good to know that my own observations and experience of practice are pointing me in the right direction...I've definitely been drawn to do more standing and more foundation work... doing a lot of chansi gong has been an eye opener... as you say, opening and closing and attempting to focus and move moving from one's centre. Difficult... but the way to go... nice to have made contact.
Merci pour cette publication. C'est un bon travail. On est bien dans la lignée Chen Fake, pas de doutes.
Nice thread... I've long suspected that there is xiongyao zhedie (chest and waist folding) and some of the Chansi gong exercises of Master Feng feature these movements. It's frustrating that most teachers are appear reluctant to clearly explain dantian rotation. This kind of folding creates a similar feeling to the spine wave that one of my former teacher employed in his xingyiquan. I'm interested to know what elements of your current training have enabled you to make the great leap forward.
Very interesting! Thanks for posting this.
You can also find the Chen Zhaokui Taijiquan Association on facebook, but I cannot post the link here, and my own blog is in the video description as well. We should have a Chen Taijiquan discussion forum up and running soon as well. Do stay in touch.
Extremely interesting especially when compares this form to Master Feng Zhiqiang's hunyuan sets and his chansi gong training. I practice the Chen village forms, as my teacher has been taught by Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang, but I have been most interested by the taijiquan of Hong Junsheng and Master Feng's -
both were a direct disciples of Chen Fake.
More of a little step. lol! As you say the Chansi Gong exercises are a big part of it. I was taught a softer more general approach whilst learning Laojia then as we began Xinjia he changed the silk reeling to include more internal undulations in the chest and making sure we kept whole body unity. I am still trying! lol! Also standing practise has helped. Strengthening Yi (mind) and informing the internal body of what to do i.e.. open and close, and circle deep within the body. Hope that helps.
I'd like to keep in touch... I've enjoyed this conversation and have been interested and impressed with Chen Erhu's approach for some time. Also you are friends with Milford Graves... I'm a fan and have several of his albums... it's most pleasing to know that he is deep into the arts.
Thanks you very much for your comments. Please enjoy the video!
Coo video. Nice Taiji. Enjoyable to watch.
Likewise! Peace
GREAT THANKS FOR SHARING. OOOMMM
The form is quite close to Hong Junsheng´s Practical Method.
It is quite similar just in terms of obvious superficial choreography, as it should be since they are both descendants of Chen FaKe's line. Beyond the superficial choreography though, the powers, structural and body methods are very very different.
陳照奎學生
是的，少数最优秀的弟子之一