The origins of the silk shirt myth? A comment taken from my FB page "Jonathan Alvekrans Regarding the latest video, the silk shirt myth seems to originate from James Chambers' book The Devil's Horsemen, published in the 70s. He gives no source for his stement and all other mention of this appears to go back to that book. books.google.se/books?id=tbTNDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT62..."
I can't add any sources but i do remember my mother saying that the mongols valued the silk shirt because it got entangled in the arrow head and made it EASIER to extract it without causing more damage.
Great Video as always, Thanks. So a couple of comments, you are correct that a person who survived the arrow or a bullet hit, is better off with a Silk Shirt vs. Linen as the debris from the garment will not collect in the wounds as readily as other material. Very important in the days before antibiotics. Secondly, rotation vs penetration is not likely a "Thing" in low velocity projectiles, like arrows. "Modern Arrows" like the APFSDS fired out of tanks, it is a factor. That is why the British 105mm Rifled Gun, was replaced with the German 120mm Smooth-bore Gun. When launching a 6 pound Tungsten or Depleted Uranium Finned Dart at 6,000 Feet per second,.The Smooth-bore gun performs better as no energy is wasted on rotation to stabilize the projectile. Of course it is theoretically less accurate than a rifled gun at 2 kilometres distance, however the target is rather large, usually another tank, so no big deal. Finally Teflon coated bullets were used in armor piercing pistol ammunition in the 1970's, notably by the KKW corporation. These were brass bullets coated in Teflon. The reason for the coating was two fold, one to reduce wear on the pistol's barrel, but primarily to help seal the bullet against the rifling, preventing blow-by and aiding engagement with the rifling. Copper jacketed and lead bullets, slightly deform when fired and engage the rifling, whereas hard brass does not.
Hey Tod for the arrow through the door, another thing to consider is how many times the door has been shot, as perhaps the first or second wont however maybe the 5th or the 10th will have sufficiently weakened the frame to allow for some arrows to penetrate completely
That is probably one of the COOLEST ways of editing opinions, historical reference, and experimental trials that I’ve seen. If only I could do that in real life to dial back my soap box moments.. cheers on your ingenuity.
@@tods_workshop Todd, have you heard of the Samurai-era use of silk standards that would billow behind the rider when he was on horseback? It essentially billows out like a parachute, and is pretty effective as slowing down incoming projectiles much like an airbag slows someones forward momentum. Perhaps the myth had root in some similar such usage? I could definitely see such a silk cape/standard slow incoming arrows to a stop, or enough so that they barely penetrate, in which case pulling them out by the silk gains some credence. I'd love to hear your opinion. Videos of the samurai-era standards being tested against arrows on horseback can be found on youtube. Best regards!
@@tods_workshop after some googling, the Japanese cape was called a Horo. It essentially inflated behind the rider at speed, and was pretty effective at stopping or at the very least slowing arrows down. The video that went into it in depth has been taken down unfortunately, but if you google "horo stops arrows" or something similar, there's lots of interesting content to look into. Maybe you can test this at some point?
@@Sophocles13 I have seen this video. It seems to stop arrows quite well in the situations its used. Mongols used similar tactics, you charge in fire and then turn riding away. The Horo worked for stopping arrows as the rider rode away. It wouldn't work if the horse was stopped or when the rider is charging it.
Hahaha! Oh man, totally agree. Except that Todd criticizes and tries to tone himself down instead of inflate his ego. Really good comparison, thanks alot!
@@flyndutchmn At first I wondered why didn’t he just redo the dialogue so we would not know he had “disagreed” with himself. Then it occurred to me he was also demonstrating the danger of having to be absolutely correct. Acknowledging an error is difficult in real life (and almost impossible online apparently) so I respect his options even more if that’s possible.
It's Geral de Barri, known as Giraldus Cambrensis, or Geral the Welsh-man. It's an account from 1188 when he wrote about his experience in Wales, named Itinerarium Kambriae. It's during the Siege of Abergavenny Castle in 1182. "Two soldiers ran over a bridge to take refuge in one of the Castel towers. Welsh archers, shooting from behind them, drove their arrows into the oak door of the tower with such force that the arrowheads penetrated the wood of the door which was nearly a hand thick; and the arrows were present in that door as a memento." Giraldus saw them six years after they had been so effectively shot. A hand is about 4 inches or 100 mm. The correct phrasing is "palmalis fere spissitudinis transpenetrarunt" - "they penetrated nearly the space of a palm. So maybe 3 1/2 inches or 89 mm. My palm is 103 mm across.
but does "hand thick" refer to width, length, or depth of a hand ? why choose width ? perhaps in translation/interpretation, it was meant "as thick as a hand", which would only be a few inches as your hand really is only 1-2 inches thick, and is a far more believable statement, given Tod's results.
I know the constant pausing might be annoying to some people but to me it just shows you that you won't give us a fake reaction and you will show your honest reactions to your experiments. Keep up the great work
I have a feeling that the Mongol "silk shirts" were more of a gambeson type thing, and they also wore something like scale mail or lamellar armor on top, which would definitely slow the arrows down somewhat. Also this was a defense against barbed arrows, not bodkins.
I remember stories of roman/chinese trade. The romans would unweave the much thicker woven silk and make it into more like the silks we use today. Chances are, despite talking about the Mongols instead of the Chinese, you were correct about it being a thicker garment. Not just by layers, but likely by weave as well
also short capes were a thing.. with the bottom of the cape tied to the sadle or the riders waist. it would billow out behind the rider. arrows hitting it would have momentum blunted by that as well..
@@zeekeno823 the Mongolians didn’t have much production, most of their “high end” stuff like fancy fabrics came from other peoples... and given that the mongols everyone in the west were facing had already been through china i’m gonna say it’s Chinese silk fabrics they took So your general statement is correct and I totally agree with you
The thing with being hit with an arrow while wearing silk did save lives, mail and proper armor did more but for being protected to having something a fabric that wraps around and a weapoin yeah it did work and it was very damn wonderful. it did work and it did change the battlefields they were part of. but we can look at his ideas of the same stuff, but well... he loves to show off stuff... but its not accurate cause there are so many different things going on.
On the drilling myth: Imagine that you are screwing a screw into a piece of wood, you have to apply a certain amount of force to push and rotate it in. Then think about how low a rotational force the arrow has, it is light weight and the rotational speed will never be very high. You also have to keep the rotational force and forwards force constant for a while. The rotational force of the arrow is so much lower the the force forwards. It just makes sense that the arrow won't "drill" in but that it might rotate a bit on impact. My guess is that the rotational force will be dissipated almost as soon as it hits the target. The most penetration will still come from the force forwards.
You can basically clarify this with 5 minutes of simple math. The rotational force an arrow can produce is hardly existent. But its so much more fun to show it in practice ^^
Not historic, but really interesting to note is the rotation created when using single bevel broadheads. Look up penetration research by Dr. Ed Ashby. Very efficient transfer of forward momentum into rotational force. I have been able to easily and consistently split 1" boards with a 50 lb recurve and 650 grain arrows to simulate bone in a hunting scenario.
Most people including some archers do not have an idea about the spin frequency of an arrow. I recall values around 1 rotation per second. Even if it did not loose any rotation on impact, the angle of rotation during penetration would be neglectable. I do not think the the rotation contributes too much to stabilizing the arrow either. The drag of the fletchings may take the brunt of this job.
@@maxlutz3674 The problem with this entire topic is that people often go for how plausible something "sounds". Joe achieved around 55m/s with his longbow. For an arrow to make any significant rotation in a target under these circumstances it would be required to rotate with more than 60 rotations per second. An arrow like this would sound like a flying humming top. Let alone the loss of energy of the arrow that would be transformed into rotational energy. Such a design would be inefficient as hell. Have I mentioned that you would need the arrowhead to have a rotational geometry to really benefit from such a rotation in the first place? Of course its obvious that a straight blade in a drilling machine is bullocks. As soon as you think it through. As long as you only think "something turning into the target making more damage sounds reasonable" it seems to make sense.
@@AliothAncalagon The real problem with this topic is that it does not even have to sound plausible if it is stated by a self-proclaimed expert. Many people are gullible and lack the knowledge to judge so they believe.
This is one of the best clips i've watched on YT. Love love love the interventions and the smoothing of the waters. The world needs more of this across the board. Bravo.
I mean... it's what he calls his crossbow because he can't bring a longbow archer to his house during lockdown? It is still called the because it was lockdown.
I thought the silk shirt myth was about wearing a silk shirt your under armor. So if only the tip of the arrow passes through it will be wrapped in silk prevent it from infecting the wound
Is an arrowhead likely to be "dirtier" (from a microbiological perspective) than a shirt against your skin? Maybe if your enemies are jerks and wiping their arrowheads with feces. Or if the archer stuck the arrow in the ground before firing?
I've personally heard 2 versions of the silk shirt myth, only 1 having to do with the wounds. The idea that I heard was that the silk shirt was less likely to leave fibers in the wound, which is a common cause if infection. I also have heard if it wrapping the arrows as well, but never really believed that part. The other silk vs arrow myth I heard was of early samurai wearing silk capes to disrupt to arrow flight before it would actually strike flesh or armor.
@@Soridan I haven't watched all the videos on the channel (mostly not all the old shoots an x), so if it's not in the title of the video I don't seen one about arrows vs a cape here. I did a quick scan through of the video titles to check, and honestly haven't done any real research on it, just remembered hearing it somewhere.
@@patrickdix772 Yeah, funny that, I can't find it now. Definitely saw the video though, the guy riding around had multiple arrows shot at him and each arrow's flight path was sufficiently disturbed by the horo (the silk cape inflated by air) that their effectiveness was vastly reduced and mostly they smacked sideways into him.
I would suggest asking around in collector forums, reenactors with a more historical flair, etc. for "broken" stuff so you can test. Make the purpose clear. Say for example you get some mail that tore in half. Sure, ain't no good to be worn anymore, but that mail "fabric" is still plenty good to be shot at and get the same results you'd if it was in a whole shirt. And the owner might be much more willing to part ways with it for a lower price than something new or in good shape. Don't get your hopes up, but if you point out you're doing tests, you might even get a couple of freebies now and then.
@@xiaotian5863 He said historically accurately, not "Joe on the street thinks any two pieces of metal that just looks the part are all the same thing" levels of accuracy. Unless you've specialize on this, you can't just put a bunch of off the shelf metal together and call it historical accurate armor, and you won't become a specialized armorer overnight, in a month, or in a year.
Yeah it was welsh in origin but the English was the ones who really utilised it the best by using it in mass formation and making everyone train with it
Over the course of the millennium since the long bow was invented I would argue that most people in England are "part Welsh". Additionally the long bow inventors owe much to the inventors of the common bow.
@@lionheart3916 "Very simply, if you postulate that 1000 years was 30 generations ago then your theoretical number of ancestors is two to the 30th, or just over a billion: 1,073,741,824" If you go back far enough, everyone is related. A millennium ago there were far far far far less people around. The boundary of what is English and what is Welsh would blur into one.
@@TurinTuramber so your saying because the population was far less than today that most of England was welsh? So what about the Germanic migration from the saxons or the Scandinavian influence due to the Dane law and the norman conquest I wouldn't say any of those were welsh
It doesn't take a physics degree to know that an arrow or bolt doesn't drill itself into the target. The function of the fletching causing the arrow to spin is simply to stabilize the flight of the arrow. I knew the answer before you did the test, but I also understand that some people don't have the experience or have not yet aquired a knowledge of ballistics. This was a great educational video for those who didn't previously have that knowledge. We all had to learn this at some point and were without that knowledge prior to the time we learned. I really enjoyed your test to see if an arrow could shoot through a plank door. All your videos are great and I appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge. I am looking forward to building my own hunting crossbow. Your build video was fantastic! Thank you, Sir.
Silk myth: I remember reading that the silk undershirts were worn very loosely in a crumpled fashion. the silk setup you had was a very tight wearing of the silk, which was much more conducive to shock impact penetration.
Even if it was crumpled (multiple layers over eachother) it wouldn't really help the silk. The reason will was used was because it was lightweight, breathed well, and dried off faster than other fabrics. Silk as armor is complete nonsense spread around by modern revisionists. To have the same equivalent protection to something like a gambeson it would have to be incredibly bulky. Early bullet proof vests of the late 19th century that were made of silk could only stop very small handgun bullets used in discreet pocket pistols and would never have been able to stop a full power war bow.
Mad respect for someone that can call himself to task publicly like that. It's that sort of maturity that lends credence to the rest of your work; if you haven't called yourself out for it, we can be more confident that your research and conclusions are sound. Nice work Todd and Interjecting Todd!
Hey Tom, I really appreciate your commitment to accuracy and fairly representing your findings. It is very tempting to be sensational and overestimate your confidence on this platform, and indeed it is heavily incentivized. It takes a lot of courage to step back decide you've been a little too confident in your claims, and I greatly respect the scholarly environment you do so well to cultivate on this channel. Thanks, and keep up the good work!
However, it's likely (if the shot has enough power to penetrate the flesh), that it will slice between the fiber rather than "pushing" the silk to create a wound. I guess it needs another experiment, but if the silk fibers are tight and strong enough (or if the arrow is not too sharpened), it would certainly only bruise the wearer.
@@marz6770 the idea was it would let you pull the arrow out of a wound. I think the issue here is the bow and arrows used (as Tod mentions) and the type and thickness of silk as he and others here have alluded to- but also I expect there was armor involved as well (leather at the very least). In a situation where the arrows were only able to penetrate a short distance (say an inch) I can imagine thick silk might get bound up enough to then be pulled out by tugging on the surrounding silk. At any rate, recurve bows were massively less powerful than the beast Tod is shooting here.
I find the wood penetration test interesting. I'm more of a firearms guy and I remember a test for Acceptable Military Calibers. It was a penetration test using a 3/4" (18mm) pine board. Turned out even the lowly 22 caliber could pass that benchmark. Super fun to see your arrows splitting kindling.
If I shad to guess about the oak door story I would’ve bet anything they meant exactly what we saw here. Some guys in a castle with a thick oak door started seeing longbow arrows start poking through the door a few inches and probably thought huh ok shit. That arrow actually poked its way through the door. Not sailed through
I actually think there was some truth in that myth, and it all comes down to how tight the plank was framed on the side. Like we saw in the first few tests with unframed planks, the arrows easily split the planks apart. So in case the plank wasn't held tight on the side, like with some cheap carts or doors that had some gaps between the planks, an arrow could very well split a plank and went right through it.
@@Secret_Moon A normal hut door could / would break down by arrow fire, but a reinforced castle door? I thins they are a) way to thick and b) are reinforced good enough for this not to happen.
@@Seelenschmiede Yes, I did say only with cheap doors and carts with gaps between the planks that this thing might have happened. Also, I think the deciding factor is not how thick the planks were but how big the gaps between the planks were. We saw in the test that oak planks are very easy to be split if nothing holds them together. If there is a gap the size of the arrow diameter between the planks, the arrow can easily crack and push the two half of the plank apart to fly through.
@@Secret_Moon why should there be gaps? Medievil craftsman were very good in their jobs. So when you can interlocking planks today, they could make them too. Is this the modern viewpoint of "everything in the medievil time was shoddy and badly crafted"? Maybe an old cart, after decades of use got rattly loose planks with gabs in between, but who would use it and why would a longbow archer attack this person? Yes, wood works when it ages, but there is a thing called maintenance. Especially for high risk structures like castle doors.
Edit: from a medical professional and history nerd: i have studied medieval and older medical books and writing, the reality is that the silk Mongol myth is not that it will pull the arrow easily, but that the wound will be cleaner. Meaning no fabric in the wound that will lead to infection. The other myth is the capes the horse archers used, which will deviate the arrow and reduce the spinning action and there for causing smaller wound. Maybe have a fan blowing at a big peace of cape and shoot at it? On the silk again the silk was worn under armour, maybe it made then the removal easier or just kept the wound cleaner. Thank you! I was the one who requested silk cape or shirts! Thank you so much for testing it.
Lets face it. The mongol arrows worked quite well against the Chinese even when they wore silk. On the other hand I can imagine that there was some kind of Asian gambeson made of silk that worked like a gambeson an got translated as silk "shirt" Just as the medieval Norse called their gambeson as vápntreyja or weapon shirt.
The Deel, there's one at Royal armouries in Leeds, 4 layers of something closer to habotai, cut on different weave angles and the edges bound, I'd love to see an arrow Vs that.
the silk never stopped the arrow, but rather helped dull the edge to help minimize the damage, it likely was layered, however. I am a bit disappointed he missed this. But he also missed the fact the Normans Brought the longbow to the English when William The Conquerer Invaded England and took the throne in 1066 after the famous battle of Hastings. Entertaining channel and I appreciate what he tries to do, however....
It's also worth considering just how loose/much extra fabric in said slik shirt. pulling the fabric nearly taught the arrow will punch right through. perhaps having it looser like on a more flowing silk shirt would be a contributing factor. I think it's a matter of is the shirt strong enough to slow the arrow down and pull more material in with it. - A completely uneducated/scientific thought
@@Blackhawck50 i think these arrows are too heavy and bow too powerful for silk. It's more possible silk would help against weaker bows, lighter arrows. So the Mary rose had all these powerful bows in it, and this sunk around 1550, when militaries were getting their most professional and armour was at its peak. I suspect (a guess ofcourse) if we went back 100 years earlier, the typical military soldier was shooting only 120lb. Point is, Todd is really testing the pinnacle of warbow power, and i'm not entirely sure such power is representative of the majority of medieval warfare.
Tod, total respect for your 'self peer reviewing'. The adamant sweeping statement is a trap it must be easy to fall into if you do your type of video and subject matter but you pulled it back from the edge of the slippery slope.
The silk shirt thing seems almost self-explanatory. Even if we imagine for a moment that Mongolian silk was so absurdly durable that the arrow would not in fact tear through it but rather push the fabric into the body, the shirt would have to be so loose (or exceedingly elastic, which we know it wouldn't have been) that you can push the garment several inches into the body without tightening it enough that the arrowhead will puncture it. They'd have to have been wearing XXXXXL shirts. If you wrap some cloth around a leg of lamb at roughly the same "tightness" as a shirt typically sits on a human body, and push your finger into it, you don't get very far before you begin to meet resistance. The arrowhead would tear right through the fabric as soon as any kind of resistance is met.
Its interesting to note that a a lot of knight surcoats was made of silk. My theory is that's it's useful when layered and lose like a surcoat would be.
Also most of the legends about Silk are about when its wet. What wasnt dificult since the mongols where traveling hours untill Battle, so their own swet would do the job.
@@DreadX10 Because they were a bunch of tribes that constantly waged war on themselfs as well as with anyone around them. Its not like they were a united entity.
Todd that silk test reminds me of a bit of kit some samurai wore which was a cape that would inflate like a balloon at speed due to drag which was proposed to stop arrows. On the history channel they showed that as effective but as we all know that can be a quite unreliable source at times and I think it would be interesting to test up to what poundage that armor was effective for. Just an idea for that silk armor video coming down the pipe.
Dear Tod, I seem to remember something about silk shirts and vikings from my country Denmark, where this myth is also said. I am fairly convinced that the silk shirt, is more like a silk hauberk, or rather a gambeson. I hope you'll consider doing the test with several layers of silk like in a gambeson, with every layer having alternating grains. I think this will make a big difference.
Also knight surcoats often was made of silk that was layered to some extent. Its wasn't gambeson thick but it was a few layers. That and middle eastern cultures and byzantines used silk on the battlefield it just wasn't used by its self.
~12:00 I've actually looked into the rotation of arrows for a novel I'm working on. In general, IIRC, a typical arrow will rotate along its axis at roughly 1% per foot of travel. Whether this was true a thousand years ago I suppose depends greatly on how they made their arrows. A greater curve on the fletching would probably lead to a greater spin, but not by that much.
Further, the arrows 'flex' as the power coming from the string hits the nock of the arrow first, leaving the tip reacting slower. Each arrow flexes mid-air. This flexing depends on the stiffness or 'spine' of the arrow and how it was released. Different bows and release techniques contribute differently to how an arrow flies. Now, a crossbow and a compound bow can be similar to a longbow except for the fact that the arrow will be released using some form of mechanical aid. This makes the arrow wobble less randomly and more consistently mid air. What I am saying here is that a shooting the same arrow from an actual longbow would make it fly differently and what you could see there would be that the arrow is pushed in in a bit more wobbly way. When hitting a 25.4mm wood this could mean that your bodkin would break earlier as it would receive diagonal stress.
The thing about DRILLING is that it's a very LOW forward velocity, and a very high rpm, in order to minimize chip thickness. Certainly there are drills and material combinations that allow much faster forward movement for the same rpm, but as a general rule; the rpm required for drilling is a VASTLY larger number than the forward velocity. So are ANY arrows, modern or medieval, drilling into targets? Definitively, no. And as a machinist I don't feel any doubt what so ever in that answer. Is an arrow TWISTING inside a target? In some cases like armor strikes (where armor is usually quite thin >20mm), not enough to matter. In cases of going through a body or especially game, yes it's absolutely twisting as it goes through. But TWISTING is not the same as DRILLING. The act of the the arrow twisting doesn't actually increase it's ability to penetrate. In fact, an argument could tenuously be made that because a twisting arrow has to travel through more linear material through the body of say a deer, it's actually reducing the amount of penetration. So then, COULD an arrow be made to DRILL through a target? Well, not really, no. The thing about drilling is it invariably takes time to do. So at the very extreme end of design, you'd need an arrow spinning at thousands of rpm, with a spring resisted weight system inside the shaft so the arrow could actually maintain a pressure against a target while it was drilling into it. But here's the catch that makes it impossible: you also need to stabilize that force 100% absolutely directly perpendicular, or the arrow destabilizes in drilling and just flings off in a random direction. If anyone has any doubt that an arrow ISN'T drilling into a target, then imagine this scenario: A drill chuck with a drill is spinning 2000rpm in a drill press. That chuck falls out of the quill onto a workpiece, and for sake of exaggeration lets say the table isn't in place and the workpiece is on the floor. How far into the workpiece is that drill going to make it before it falls to the side? It's going to make a dent, and that's about it.
@@mjfleming319 Logically only if your close enough for friction to have not reduced the spin before it hits the target. But still the rotation would have to be much higher than was apparent to me
hmmm, quite interesting do you think it would be possible to have a fletching style that would increase the rpm of an arrow? I was also curious if some form of 'propeller-bladed arrowhead' could increase rotation?
This is just a perfect example of balance between empiricism and rationalism. The "little interventions" that corrected certain adamant statements as rational deductions ("maybe on other scenarios and with other materials this might work") balace out the empirical experiments ("let's test it out and see"). I kinda got here by accident but watched the video to the end and I am amazed by how the interventions were so on-point that turned this into a lesson of knowing one's own limitations and striving to make what you do in the best way you can. This guy has become an inspiration to me.
I pretty much always like your levelheaded format and therefore really appreciate your adding more extensive explanation in regards to the point of view you're talking from. As you said, if someone expects the arrow to pass through and keep flying it did not pass through, while if someone is thinking about the head and maybe a few fingers of wood, it does. Also maybe the person was thinking about a board and not a structure... and so on. Which is why this is my favourite channel in regards to these things, most of the others kinda annoyed me with their adamant statements that "there never was any kind of leather armor" when what they meant to say was "there is no evidence for leather clothing like jackets, as they're seen in games or movies (as they usually want to position themselves against movie- and rpg-armor), to be worn as armor, and it's also highly unlikely (wouldn't have made sense) due to..."
Wouldn’t they have worn the silk underneath their armour as well? Just as a sort of last line? Rather than just the silk? Could be worth trying. Great video!
They and meny other eastern nation's wore meny, meny layes of silk as armour, it worked against swords but I'm not sure about the arrows. The first bulletproof vest make by Jan Szczepanik, was of silk.
Plus He did show one huge advantage of those silk cloths: The fibers didn't get pulled into the wound. Which should be an improvement over wool or linen fibers getting into the wound. Not to mention that arrow stops work by having a cloth hanging lose from a wire. If you wear loads of lose flowering silk clothes, the arrow will be decelerated before it reaches the body. Just like with a modern arrow stop barrier. If you place that in front of a target, even target pointed arrows will just punch through it as well.
@@wadekirby8575 that would make sense to me. If only the tip of the arrow is getting through, then the silk would probably prove useful in getting the arrow out.
Tod, I think most medieval boards were riven, not sawn. A riven board is split on the quarter and denser than a modern flat sawn board like you used in your test. Also, the longer the board the more difficult it will be for the arrow to split. Love your your work and the way you explore historic problems!
Can i just say, the whole "hey guys, just so you know, i was being a bit dumb about things- I'ma come in and call myself out a few times, sorry." is- kind of amazing. The fact that you're willing to call yourself out- when- to be honest, not a lot of people do- nice going man.
even without the camera you can tell by the hole it makes. if it did drill the hole would be round and you dont see many round holes from a broad head or a bodkin etc, so how people got to this i dont know.
you forget this is the internet. Where all basement trolls are experts on subjects while all of them forgetting about nature's laws that proove then wrong everytime
@@yareyare_dechi It's not quite similar, but I have seen several light novels/manga/comics/fanfics/etc that seem to think that any attack, particularly projectile attacks, would get stronger if the attack also spun around like a drill. The general idea seems to be that a spin would somehow put more 'force' into the attack. I'm not 100% where this idea came from or how it got popular, but from what I can tell(with minimal research mind you), the basic idea seems to come from bullets. Basically, someone heard about guns having rifling for gyroscopic stabilization, but didn't really get the idea of gyroscopic stabilization, so came away with the very basic idea of 'projectile+spin=better'. People thought it made enough sense I guess, because it didn't take long for 'make it spin' became kind of a go-to method for upgrading an attack after the first spinny attacks started coming out. It used to be rather common a few years back, but seems to have lost popularity for the most part. . As a side note, even if we ignored the lack of inertia and 'definitely not drilled' holes, there's also the fact that most arrowheads are very clearly not designed with drilling into anything in mind. How anyone would see a broadhead and go 'yep, that looks like it's supposed to drill into things', I've no idea.
I feel like the oak wood myth is only partially served here. Love what you've done! On the oak myth, doors, top wood plank framing a wagons bed, aren't 100% framed. For example, a door may be fully framed if closed, though it is gapped to a degree between it's framing. Some doors, swinging doors, may not be framed at all top and bottom. Very in between examples of unframed and fully framed. Wagons, the side walls of a wagon usually only go so high. The top board on the side wall of the wagon would have no bracing on the top side. Possibly no bracing on the bottom side depending on if there's full board gaps between the top board and the next board below. Sometimes a full boards width gap exists. Curious.
The second you started shooting at the planks I said to myself well its not nailed down or held by bracing in a frame, so its not a great test. But as you always do Tod, you realised the same thing and adjusted the test accordingly. This is why I love this channel so much, it may not be rocket science, but you definitely come up with the most definitive tests that Ive seen. Loved this one even if you felt it needed the popups. Cheers mate!
It shows you take enough pride in your work, your channel, and your equipment that you'll go back and correct errors or pull yourself up for being too sure, and that is a rare quality these days for sure :)
Take into account that a silk shirt (or armor? gambison-esque?) would've been used in conjuction with actual armor, be it chain, lamellar, etc. Those would be the primary detract of the arrow's power. So the question would be if the arrow went only slightly in - would the silk shirt do what the myth says? Or perhaps, would a silk gambison behave differently (in general) than a, for example, linen one? Now that's an interesting notion to test.
I would like to add that silk is also flame resistant. So there's a benefit to that in accordance with the sort of weaponry that the mongols might've faced?
@@tods_workshop From what I can remember, the Mongols got a lot of silk when they raided China in 1211. Since they shared spoils equally, every soldier would have been given silk, so that if one could make a shirt of it, they all could. I don't know if they had enough to make gambesons. As I understand it, the idea was not to pull out the arrow WITH(by) the silk, but pull it out with(together with) the silk. The silk supposedly prevented barbs from eating into the flesh, and so made them easier to pull out without further injury. Even so, a silk undershirt must be comfortable to wear, and would prevent chafing when riding on horseback for days and weeks.
A better indication that arrows don't drill into targets is that the arrows don't have drill bits as their heads. These videos are brilliant, the way you analyse everything and give the footage along with the conclusions are brilliant.
I think you should have only done one shot. You're putting a lot more pressure on the silk when you pulling on 3 arrows. I'm not sure if it would have made a difference, but it's worth considering. Most people aren't going to get shot 3 times in the same location before finally deciding to find cover :D
We all have our off days (especially in recent times!) I'm new to your content but have to say it is brilliant and this video goes to show why, you watched and pulled yourself up on something. Self awareness is a great attribute to have in life and someone of us struggle with it. Keep up the great content (must be tough with our lockdowns) can't wait for you to get back with a bit of a team doing tests, that's no criticism of you but that wealth of knowledge in a youtube video was striking 👍
This was my understanding too - its not about stopping the arrow or easing its removal , its to prevent infection after by not having fragments of leather/sackcloth left in the body.
@@pmk198908 I think using silk is not necessarily a bad idea. You could say that silk is a 'natural Kevlar' . At least chemically both are liquid crystals with similar properties.
@@xTh3be5tx one of them is regularly used in bullet-resistance applications, the other isn’t. This was a stupid myth that at best got misinterpreted over the centuries and at was worst was pseudoscience bullshit. I’m glad we’re finally putting it to bed
@@pmk198908 just making sure that you do understand bulletproof vests were made of layered silk before invention of aramids. and were prohibitively expensive.
As far as the oak penetration is concerned: in addition to the piece of oak that the arrow head obviously pierced, you had a backstop target board that also obviously kept the arrow from penetrating deeper. I would suggest taping the "framed" oak to a cardboard box and see how much penetration one gets. I believe the History Channel on TV did a "quilted gambeson style silk shirt" test some years ago that showed that with the typical light Mongol arrows fired from the typical Mongol horn recurve bow, that the silk was effective in reducing the penetration, helped stop possible bleeding, and could assist in the removal of an arrow. (Your mileage may vary!)
I would consider the "silk shirt" test with leather/lamellar armor over the silk, and an accurate weight/style bow and arrow. Otherwise, the test itself is discounted. Silk was the last line of defense (in theory), not the first.
Hey Tod, very enjoyable video. Thanks for taking the time not only to make it but to add the extra commentary. Your good intentions definitely come across and confirm what we already thought: that you're a likeable guy. Cheers.
This was a perfectly fine video even without the clarifying edits. No rants here. I have not studied physics in 30 years, but can't you pretty much rule out the possibility of spinning? Yes the arrow is going to spin in flight, but it only has its own weight to give it angular momentum, and the angular momentum imparted by the fletchings doesn't seem significant when the arrow is turning inside solid wood, mail, or flesh. Unless that 160 lb bow imparts considerable spin at the start of the shot I don't see how air resistance on feathers is going to create that much force.
It would also be pretty horrible design if that much energy went into the spin rather than the actual shot. A bit of rotation is nice for stability in flight but the absolute majority of energy should be used to propel the arrow and give it range. If anyone wanted the arrow to really spin then both the fletchings and the arrowhead would have some type of screw shape. The same really goes for the silk shirt. Expecting the arrow to cut behind the silk but not through it feels like expecting a sheathed sword to cut something without damaging the sheath. This is not to disparage the video or the tests, it just sometimes astounds me how much common myths/assumptions seem to go against intuition.
Hi Tod, I actually know where the door story comes from. There was a chronicle on the English's wars in Wales, and an account of a skirmish between the English and Welsh: 'Two soldiers ran over a bridge to take refuge in one of the Casde towers. Welsh archers, shooting from behind them, drove their arrows into the oak door of the tower with such force that the arrowheads penetrated the wood of the door which was nearly a hand thick; and the arrows were preserved in that door as a memento.' You can find more info and a specific source in the book "Longbow: a social and military history" (pg36)
If they're just "penetrating", which I interpret as the points sticking out the backside, and multiple archers are firing, then I could believe that. The wood would give more and more with each arrow.
i'm so glad he "fixed" the door test. while watching i was like... that piece of wood is too small it just gets split, a door wouldn't ... just then: in come the frame. Thanks Tod, that's the quality of testing i've gotten used to expect from your videos!
America just launched its own astronauts to the moon again via SpaceX recently. Or the Starlink satellites that will allow us to watch Tod's Workshop in the middle of the ocean is pretty good. Or the new Jeorg magazine for his repeating crossbow? In all honesty the Lockdown Longbow series has been great though I haven't missed one :)
Your rants made perfect sense. The one trick used to stop arrows with silk was the silken sail attached to the backs of riding warriors at the shoulders and hips with enough extra length to form a bubble behind the rider, a bit like a spinnaker sail. Such sail will flap left to right vigorously in the turbulence behind the rider's back. The lateral motion of the sail could draw the tip of the arrow away from the arrow's trajectory. As the real impulse of the arrow is carried at its centre of mass, the COG, the arrow head is no longer really where the arrow delivers its punch to push into the target. Moreover air is not massless. As the arrow is made go sideways more and more by the flapping sail, it more and more delivers its punch to the silk. The sail is deformed and thus needs to displace air trapped under it. This volume of air easily has hundreds of Gramms. This mass of air serves as shock absorber! I think it was on a programme with Mike Loades where they demonstrated this principle works pretty reliably.
One thing I've heard said about silk vs. arrows is that Mongols would wear a silk *cape* that would billow out behind them, and that the billowing cape would entangle any arrows falling down towards them (ie. shot in an arc at long range), robbing them of momentum and pulling them to strike at a different angle so that the arrow would only cause minor wounds at worst. Is there any truth in that? I have no idea...
This has been tested and yes it worked. With loose fabric, the arrowhead takes the silk with it (but not always) and now has to accelerate all that cloth (oriented perpendicular to the arrows flightpath) so it looses a lot of momentum in those last feet to the target.
@@shrekas2966 I absolutely have seen depictions of Mongols with capes in secondary sources, but I have no idea if those are based on depictions or descriptions from primary sources, or just based on the imagination of the artists. Which is part of why I said I have no idea if there's any truth to it.
@@randalthor741 thing is, who do you call a mongol? The most accurate depiction of early mongol expansion ive seen depicts then wearing similar lamellar armors like chinese made out of steel or leather, sometimes both. They are worn on a somple kaftan, which was mostly wool back then. no capes on top. The depiction was made by one of the middle eastern dynasties.
"Drilling into the target" "Spinning causes more damage than the impact" "Spinning bullets penetrate deeper" "Hollow point bullets are buzz-saws inside the body" "If the bullet doesn't spin, it can't penetrate the target." ... Every one of these 'truths' about spinning bullets/arrows/spears have been refuted the same way: slow-motion films. Yes, a bullet spins in flight, around one rotation per 18" of flight on average for rifles, one in 9" for pistols. If your soft target is two feet thick, that 'Devil Bullet' is going to spin about twice as it passes through. Hardly a buzz-saw or a drill, those two rotations...
Only contention I have with this analysis is that we don't know whether the rotational momentum decreases at the same proportional rate as the linear momentum. In fact I should imagine it doesn't as the only thing stopping the bullet rotating is friction along the surface rather than impact with a target for the linear momentum (although admittedly the friction would be very high given it scales linearly with the normal force, or the force acting to arrest the bullet). So, as the bullet slows down linearly, we might expect it to still be rotating relatively quickly and the number of rotations per cm to increase, possibly quite significantly.
The big point for me, is the test about arrows penetrating a wooden door... I love how you're so aware and cautious about your blanket statements. Huge respect for self-awareness and correction like that! I'd also say that sometimes you're being a little harsh on yourself! Things like 'do arrows drill?' were pretty clear, and categorically saying that they don't isn't that bad! The big point for me, though, is the test about arrows penetrating wood. I think you mounted the wooden target board *far* more securely than a medieval doorframe would! Such a door would likely be loosely mounted on its hinges, in its portal. I suspect that it would likely be far better represented by your 'loose' board shooting than the secure frame you built for the later tests. Bear in mind how most doors were fastened, and I think it's actually pretty possible that your first few tests (before you framed the target Oak board) would be a better representation of an arrow hitting a door, than your 'corrected' tests were! Great video anyway, I get a ton of entertainment out of your channel!
I heard the mongols used silk capes to catch and slow the arrows as they were riding away the cape billows behind at a 45 ish degree angle to the angle of attack like sloped tank armor (accept not hard) wonder if you can debunk that one.
Panic The Scholar Knight. I don’t know if they actually did this, but I saw a feature about this on some history channel type show, where they test weapons & do experimental archaeology. As long as the silk was billowed out, it was incredibly effective at stopping or considerably slowing the arrows. I will caveat that with the fact that I can’t recall if they were shooting with high poundage bows or any kind of war points.
This probably would help I've seen rows of curtains stop small calibur rounds because they deflect going through them. Then again arrows are alot heavier and might deflect less
I really like this video where you came back and described a more moderate viewpoint. It's so the way that these things go where are you producing video and then in the editing room you think about what you said. In my opinion do this all the time
Even then, the point of a gambeson isn't for the fabric to be pulled into the wound and facilitate extracting the arrow, it's to prevent penetration in the first place.
@@maximsavage well, maybe the Mongols had regular armour to slow down the arrow head mostly, and had a loose fitting silk shirt under everything else. So that the full speed arrow head can not be stopped, but slowed down arrow head after it penetrated all the other armour layer, can be wrapped around with final silk layer as it penetrade the skin.
@@davidjacobs8558 That sounds... plausible, perhaps. It would make for a worthwhile test, at the very least. We know for a fact that the mongols had armor, a kind of leather lamellar, for instance, and that some also wore mail. However, if this hypothesis has any chance of being true, I think we'll need a weaker bow to test it. As far as I know, and I might be wrong, 160 lbs of draw weight wasn't very common in the eurasian steppe. I've seen 120 lbs longbows shoot clean through a shirt of properly riveted mail, it was like the armor didn't exist as far as that arrow was concerned. But, we know that mail could stop arrows, which suggests those bows were weaker.
@@maximsavage No. The Mongolian compound bow alledgedly had a draw weight of 150lbs as standard. The silk khalat was multi-layered and used for the exact reasons described. It wasn't a one layer silk shirt from marks and spencer or something.
Todd, I am genuinely considering using a few clips of your "adamant assertions" vs your post-edited discussion to show my students the fone line between discussing your data and making generalized (and too assertive) conclusions based on your data. Very well done!
I seriously didn't recognize him without the stubble. He was like "It's Tod of Tod's workshop here." and I was like "You're not Tod!" and went clicking on his channel to find out who this geezer is. GROW THE BEARD BACK TOD! PLEASE, I'M SCARED. :(
I know it's terrifying. I shat myself when I saw him. Jumping out of airplanes in the RAF back in the 1970s was a doddle compared to this. Nothing compares to this sight. I would rather be in the front wave over the top at the Somme than see that horror again. 'THE HORROR! THE HORROR!' (Citing Marlon Brando in 'Apocalypse Now') An alien clone version.! (just kidding!). As to the video itself, As someone else has remarked here already, his self criticism unlike our MSM who never acknowledge their mistakes or bias, gives me trust in this man and his show. Todd is great, though his name in German means 'death'. Great show, great guy!
The "drill bit" wouldn’t cause as much damage as a Brodhead with fixed blades. Imagine a Brodhead going straight in, and cutting a straight path the whole way in. Now imagine turning the Brodhead as it goes in. Which causes more surface area cut?
I'd guess it's simply a marketing ploy: without the constant input of force (cf a drill), the twisting/rotational action would be quickly countered by the friction of the arrowhead's rotation within the penetration/wound. Plus, arrowheads don't spin as fast as a rifled shot (or have the bullet's initial momentum energy), & the attached shaft would also induce friction drag as it penetrates deeper In summary: good idea as a thought experiment, but unlikely (to say the least) to work in practice :)
Good to keep in mind that it's the passage of air across the fletchings over time that imparts spin to an arrow. A longer flight would have it spinning faster. It's not like a rifle, where the bullet exits the muzzle and instantly exhibits its maximum rpm. Fantastic video, as always. You're doing great experiments that get us thinking. Thanks!
Tod, I'm *really* impressed with you going out of your way to balance this video. This balancing shows integrity and commitment which is very welcome and impressive! Also, whenever I heard you say "leg of lamb", part of my heard "Legolas"!
Tangentially, early bullet resistant soft armor vests were constructed with layered silk and were quite good at protecting wearers from pistol calibers 100 years ago. EDIT Whoops: Tod mentions this. I jumped the gun with this comment.
It's very good padded. the same thickness of paper would also stop the bullet very cleanly, but the silk vest had the "advantage" that it could be worn by a nobleman under a coat. Of course we must take its bullet-stopping capacities at its inventor's word, and it was never really used.
@@ABAlphaBeta I’m referring to soft armor from 1920’s America made for police officers. These layered silk vests absolutely stopped pistol caliber bullets. You can easily find film clips from the time. I see that my first comment wasn’t clear that I was referring only to the 20th Century.
@@goreobsessed2308 Silk has a very high tensile strength which is what you want for soft body armour and before the advent of synthetic fibres like nylon and Kevlar silk was the best you could get.
I believe in modern times some bullet resistant vests were made that seemed to be on a par with Kevlar. A Kevlar vest however has many layers and so may the vests of the ancients. The things may have been sown and glued together to make a composite as well. I don't know for sure because I was not there.
One thought about the silk.... I remember a video in which silk against arrows were tested in the context of japanese samurais. Sadly I do not remember who made this video. It was about samurais on horseback wearing some kind of silk shirts. The shirts "balloned" because of the speed of the galloping horse. And these "balloned" silk had some stopping power against arrows. Due to distance between silk and body of the samurai. The silk "catches" the arrow and slows the arrow down. Sorry but my english skills cant explain it better. I hope this comment helps.
A horo? I've seen that in a video but it's a large cape that blows behind you on horseback not a shirt. It does work but by grabbing onto the arrow head and wrapping around the shaft because its loosely blowing in the air.
"To start with, it's not the english longbow, it's the welsh longbow" YESSSS!!!! Finally, usually from what I've seen the english are perfectly happy pretending the celts in general never existed and all our good ideas are just kind of theirs. Glad to see someone acknowledge that's not actually the case.
Ehhh, hes sort of right and sort of wrong. The Welsh were the first to use the longbow, however an English Longbow is not the same as a Welsh Longbow. Welsh Longbows were roughly five and a half feet long and of a lower poundage than English Longbows, which tended to be 6 foot long or longer and of much higher poundages. The Welsh gave the English the idea, and the English expanded on it.
The origins of the silk shirt myth? A comment taken from my FB page "Jonathan Alvekrans Regarding the latest video, the silk shirt myth seems to originate from James Chambers' book The Devil's Horsemen, published in the 70s. He gives no source for his stement and all other mention of this appears to go back to that book. books.google.se/books?id=tbTNDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT62..."
You put a lot of thought into this 👍
I can't add any sources but i do remember my mother saying that the mongols valued the silk shirt because it got entangled in the arrow head and made it EASIER to extract it without causing more damage.
Great Video as always, Thanks.
So a couple of comments, you are correct that a person who survived the arrow or a bullet hit, is better off with a Silk Shirt vs. Linen as the debris from the garment will not collect in the wounds as readily as other material. Very important in the days before antibiotics.
Secondly, rotation vs penetration is not likely a "Thing" in low velocity projectiles, like arrows. "Modern Arrows" like the APFSDS fired out of tanks, it is a factor. That is why the British 105mm Rifled Gun, was replaced with the German 120mm Smooth-bore Gun. When launching a 6 pound Tungsten or Depleted Uranium Finned Dart at 6,000 Feet per second,.The Smooth-bore gun performs better as no energy is wasted on rotation to stabilize the projectile. Of course it is theoretically less accurate than a rifled gun at 2 kilometres distance, however the target is rather large, usually another tank, so no big deal.
Finally Teflon coated bullets were used in armor piercing pistol ammunition in the 1970's, notably by the KKW corporation. These were brass bullets coated in Teflon. The reason for the coating was two fold, one to reduce wear on the pistol's barrel, but primarily to help seal the bullet against the rifling, preventing blow-by and aiding engagement with the rifling. Copper jacketed and lead bullets, slightly deform when fired and engage the rifling, whereas hard brass does not.
I thought the silk shirt thingie was about getting the barbed arrows out in a less unsettling than normal fashion.
Hey Tod for the arrow through the door, another thing to consider is how many times the door has been shot, as perhaps the first or second wont however maybe the 5th or the 10th will have sufficiently weakened the frame to allow for some arrows to penetrate completely
That is probably one of the COOLEST ways of editing opinions, historical reference, and experimental trials that I’ve seen. If only I could do that in real life to dial back my soap box moments.. cheers on your ingenuity.
Thank you - very kind
@@tods_workshop Todd, have you heard of the Samurai-era use of silk standards that would billow behind the rider when he was on horseback? It essentially billows out like a parachute, and is pretty effective as slowing down incoming projectiles much like an airbag slows someones forward momentum. Perhaps the myth had root in some similar such usage? I could definitely see such a silk cape/standard slow incoming arrows to a stop, or enough so that they barely penetrate, in which case pulling them out by the silk gains some credence. I'd love to hear your opinion. Videos of the samurai-era standards being tested against arrows on horseback can be found on youtube. Best regards!
@@tods_workshop after some googling, the Japanese cape was called a Horo. It essentially inflated behind the rider at speed, and was pretty effective at stopping or at the very least slowing arrows down. The video that went into it in depth has been taken down unfortunately, but if you google "horo stops arrows" or something similar, there's lots of interesting content to look into. Maybe you can test this at some point?
It's a Tod's version of a footnote. A Todnote? =)
@@Sophocles13 I have seen this video. It seems to stop arrows quite well in the situations its used. Mongols used similar tactics, you charge in fire and then turn riding away. The Horo worked for stopping arrows as the rider rode away. It wouldn't work if the horse was stopped or when the rider is charging it.
This pausing reminds me of the emperors new groove when Cusco pauses to remind the audience that he’s the main character and not pacha
Hahaha! Oh man, totally agree. Except that Todd criticizes and tries to tone himself down instead of inflate his ego. Really good comparison, thanks alot!
@@retroicdescent and that is why i respect his judgement. Yeah, i am more likely to trust him.
Great minds...
@@flyndutchmn At first I wondered why didn’t he just redo the dialogue so we would not know he had “disagreed” with himself. Then it occurred to me he was also demonstrating the danger of having to be absolutely correct. Acknowledging an error is difficult in real life (and almost impossible online apparently) so I respect his options even more if that’s possible.
It's Geral de Barri, known as Giraldus Cambrensis, or Geral the Welsh-man. It's an account from 1188 when he wrote about his experience in Wales, named Itinerarium Kambriae.
It's during the Siege of Abergavenny Castle in 1182. "Two soldiers ran over a bridge to take refuge in one of the Castel towers. Welsh archers, shooting from behind them, drove their arrows into the oak door of the tower with such force that the arrowheads penetrated the wood of the door which was nearly a hand thick; and the arrows were present in that door as a memento."
Giraldus saw them six years after they had been so effectively shot. A hand is about 4 inches or 100 mm. The correct phrasing is "palmalis fere spissitudinis transpenetrarunt" - "they penetrated nearly the space of a palm. So maybe 3 1/2 inches or 89 mm. My palm is 103 mm across.
Thank you!
The kind of knowledgeable people I find in Tod’s comment section never ceases to amaze me
Yeah I knew that guy he was always exaggerating. Should have heard him talk about his weiner
"transpenetrarunt" but that means the arrows stick in, not that they went through, right?
so the myth is a bad translation?
but does "hand thick" refer to width, length, or depth of a hand ? why choose width ? perhaps in translation/interpretation, it was meant "as thick as a hand", which would only be a few inches as your hand really is only 1-2 inches thick, and is a far more believable statement, given Tod's results.
I know the constant pausing might be annoying to some people but to me it just shows you that you won't give us a fake reaction and you will show your honest reactions to your experiments. Keep up the great work
I'm so happy to see that you are able to call yourself out and correct yourself. It's a lost art, especially here on youtube.
You mean we aren't all infallible?! Triggered! /s
Dedication to the scientific method.
Excellent explanation of your observations.
I have a feeling that the Mongol "silk shirts" were more of a gambeson type thing, and they also wore something like scale mail or lamellar armor on top, which would definitely slow the arrows down somewhat. Also this was a defense against barbed arrows, not bodkins.
I remember stories of roman/chinese trade. The romans would unweave the much thicker woven silk and make it into more like the silks we use today. Chances are, despite talking about the Mongols instead of the Chinese, you were correct about it being a thicker garment. Not just by layers, but likely by weave as well
also short capes were a thing.. with the bottom of the cape tied to the sadle or the riders waist. it would billow out behind the rider. arrows hitting it would have momentum blunted by that as well..
@@mcewenhandcraft You mean an arrow curtain?
@@zeekeno823 the Mongolians didn’t have much production, most of their “high end” stuff like fancy fabrics came from other peoples... and given that the mongols everyone in the west were facing had already been through china i’m gonna say it’s Chinese silk fabrics they took
So your general statement is correct and I totally agree with you
The thing with being hit with an arrow while wearing silk did save lives, mail and proper armor did more but for being protected to having something a fabric that wraps around and a weapoin yeah it did work and it was very damn wonderful. it did work and it did change the battlefields they were part of. but we can look at his ideas of the same stuff, but well... he loves to show off stuff... but its not accurate cause there are so many different things going on.
I appreciate how you didn't just cut the mistakes out, but addressed them. Makes you human.
I appreciate the stepping back and recognizing one’s possible mistakes
On the drilling myth: Imagine that you are screwing a screw into a piece of wood, you have to apply a certain amount of force to push and rotate it in. Then think about how low a rotational force the arrow has, it is light weight and the rotational speed will never be very high. You also have to keep the rotational force and forwards force constant for a while. The rotational force of the arrow is so much lower the the force forwards. It just makes sense that the arrow won't "drill" in but that it might rotate a bit on impact. My guess is that the rotational force will be dissipated almost as soon as it hits the target. The most penetration will still come from the force forwards.
You can basically clarify this with 5 minutes of simple math.
The rotational force an arrow can produce is hardly existent.
But its so much more fun to show it in practice ^^
Not historic, but really interesting to note is the rotation created when using single bevel broadheads. Look up penetration research by Dr. Ed Ashby. Very efficient transfer of forward momentum into rotational force. I have been able to easily and consistently split 1" boards with a 50 lb recurve and 650 grain arrows to simulate bone in a hunting scenario.
Most people including some archers do not have an idea about the spin frequency of an arrow. I recall values around 1 rotation per second. Even if it did not loose any rotation on impact, the angle of rotation during penetration would be neglectable. I do not think the the rotation contributes too much to stabilizing the arrow either. The drag of the fletchings may take the brunt of this job.
@@maxlutz3674 The problem with this entire topic is that people often go for how plausible something "sounds".
Joe achieved around 55m/s with his longbow.
For an arrow to make any significant rotation in a target under these circumstances it would be required to rotate with more than 60 rotations per second.
An arrow like this would sound like a flying humming top.
Let alone the loss of energy of the arrow that would be transformed into rotational energy. Such a design would be inefficient as hell.
Have I mentioned that you would need the arrowhead to have a rotational geometry to really benefit from such a rotation in the first place?
Of course its obvious that a straight blade in a drilling machine is bullocks.
As soon as you think it through.
As long as you only think "something turning into the target making more damage sounds reasonable" it seems to make sense.
@@AliothAncalagon The real problem with this topic is that it does not even have to sound plausible if it is stated by a self-proclaimed expert. Many people are gullible and lack the knowledge to judge so they believe.
21 minutes of company time very well spent. Thanks for a bright spot in my day.
My social responsibility and from the perspective of a company owner says I should disapprove - but I don't! Love it and really made me laugh
This is one of the best clips i've watched on YT. Love love love the interventions and the smoothing of the waters. The world needs more of this across the board. Bravo.
Sir, your videos have taught me so much more than I thought I already knew. Please keep up the great work
Watching this is 2020. For a brief moment, I thought "lockdown Long bow" was what Tod called his Long bow during a lockdown.
It wasn't until this comment I realized that's not what it meant 😂 😂 😂
ya, that is what I thought it meant too lol. I thought it was an experiment he was doing during lockdown.
Well the video was posted in October 2020
Lockdown does refer to the lockdown, you bleeding idiots
@@stupidhandles so much hostility. 😂 😂 😂 Clearly someone is having a bad lockdown
I mean... it's what he calls his crossbow because he can't bring a longbow archer to his house during lockdown? It is still called the because it was lockdown.
I thought the silk shirt myth was about wearing a silk shirt your under armor. So if only the tip of the arrow passes through it will be wrapped in silk prevent it from infecting the wound
Is an arrowhead likely to be "dirtier" (from a microbiological perspective) than a shirt against your skin? Maybe if your enemies are jerks and wiping their arrowheads with feces. Or if the archer stuck the arrow in the ground before firing?
I've personally heard 2 versions of the silk shirt myth, only 1 having to do with the wounds. The idea that I heard was that the silk shirt was less likely to leave fibers in the wound, which is a common cause if infection. I also have heard if it wrapping the arrows as well, but never really believed that part. The other silk vs arrow myth I heard was of early samurai wearing silk capes to disrupt to arrow flight before it would actually strike flesh or armor.
@@patrickdix772 the samurai "myth" was shown to work here on TH-cam. Memory wants me to say it was this channel but I might be mixing that part up.
@@Soridan I haven't watched all the videos on the channel (mostly not all the old shoots an x), so if it's not in the title of the video I don't seen one about arrows vs a cape here. I did a quick scan through of the video titles to check, and honestly haven't done any real research on it, just remembered hearing it somewhere.
@@patrickdix772 Yeah, funny that, I can't find it now. Definitely saw the video though, the guy riding around had multiple arrows shot at him and each arrow's flight path was sufficiently disturbed by the horo (the silk cape inflated by air) that their effectiveness was vastly reduced and mostly they smacked sideways into him.
Hi Todd I would be interested to do testing with my asian warbows, where do you recommend getting reasonable price armour that is still historical?
ebay
maybe go to a medieval club and ask them
I would suggest asking around in collector forums, reenactors with a more historical flair, etc. for "broken" stuff so you can test. Make the purpose clear. Say for example you get some mail that tore in half. Sure, ain't no good to be worn anymore, but that mail "fabric" is still plenty good to be shot at and get the same results you'd if it was in a whole shirt. And the owner might be much more willing to part ways with it for a lower price than something new or in good shape. Don't get your hopes up, but if you point out you're doing tests, you might even get a couple of freebies now and then.
@@louisvictor3473 why not make ur own
@@xiaotian5863 He said historically accurately, not "Joe on the street thinks any two pieces of metal that just looks the part are all the same thing" levels of accuracy. Unless you've specialize on this, you can't just put a bunch of off the shelf metal together and call it historical accurate armor, and you won't become a specialized armorer overnight, in a month, or in a year.
As someone that's part Welsh, I greatly appreciate someone recognizing the proper origin of the longbow.
Yeah it was welsh in origin but the English was the ones who really utilised it the best by using it in mass formation and making everyone train with it
Over the course of the millennium since the long bow was invented I would argue that most people in England are "part Welsh".
Additionally the long bow inventors owe much to the inventors of the common bow.
@@TurinTuramber how did you come to that conclusion?
@@lionheart3916 "Very simply, if you postulate that 1000 years was 30 generations ago then your theoretical number of ancestors is two to the 30th, or just over a billion: 1,073,741,824"
If you go back far enough, everyone is related. A millennium ago there were far far far far less people around. The boundary of what is English and what is Welsh would blur into one.
@@TurinTuramber so your saying because the population was far less than today that most of England was welsh? So what about the Germanic migration from the saxons or the Scandinavian influence due to the Dane law and the norman conquest I wouldn't say any of those were welsh
It doesn't take a physics degree to know that an arrow or bolt doesn't drill itself into the target. The function of the fletching causing the arrow to spin is simply to stabilize the flight of the arrow. I knew the answer before you did the test, but I also understand that some people don't have the experience or have not yet aquired a knowledge of ballistics. This was a great educational video for those who didn't previously have that knowledge. We all had to learn this at some point and were without that knowledge prior to the time we learned.
I really enjoyed your test to see if an arrow could shoot through a plank door. All your videos are great and I appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge. I am looking forward to building my own hunting crossbow. Your build video was fantastic! Thank you, Sir.
Silk myth: I remember reading that the silk undershirts were worn very loosely in a crumpled fashion. the silk setup you had was a very tight wearing of the silk, which was much more conducive to shock impact penetration.
Even if it was crumpled (multiple layers over eachother) it wouldn't really help the silk. The reason will was used was because it was lightweight, breathed well, and dried off faster than other fabrics. Silk as armor is complete nonsense spread around by modern revisionists. To have the same equivalent protection to something like a gambeson it would have to be incredibly bulky. Early bullet proof vests of the late 19th century that were made of silk could only stop very small handgun bullets used in discreet pocket pistols and would never have been able to stop a full power war bow.
Mad respect for someone that can call himself to task publicly like that. It's that sort of maturity that lends credence to the rest of your work; if you haven't called yourself out for it, we can be more confident that your research and conclusions are sound.
Nice work Todd and Interjecting Todd!
Commentary was well done. Obvious you take pride in your vids. Thanks for everything you do!
Thanks
1.19 minutes. Bravo Bravo. Love your honesty and love your attitude. Its why i come back time and time again. Great integrity.
Hey Tom, I really appreciate your commitment to accuracy and fairly representing your findings. It is very tempting to be sensational and overestimate your confidence on this platform, and indeed it is heavily incentivized. It takes a lot of courage to step back decide you've been a little too confident in your claims, and I greatly respect the scholarly environment you do so well to cultivate on this channel. Thanks, and keep up the good work!
One of the most interesting medieval warfare/craft channels on entire TH-cam. Thank you, Tod, a lot. Really love your videos.
Undressed silk is a lot thicker and stiffer then fine slik and was worn in several. Similar in concept to a Gambeson.
However, it's likely (if the shot has enough power to penetrate the flesh), that it will slice between the fiber rather than "pushing" the silk to create a wound. I guess it needs another experiment, but if the silk fibers are tight and strong enough (or if the arrow is not too sharpened), it would certainly only bruise the wearer.
@@marz6770 the idea was it would let you pull the arrow out of a wound. I think the issue here is the bow and arrows used (as Tod mentions) and the type and thickness of silk as he and others here have alluded to- but also I expect there was armor involved as well (leather at the very least). In a situation where the arrows were only able to penetrate a short distance (say an inch) I can imagine thick silk might get bound up enough to then be pulled out by tugging on the surrounding silk.
At any rate, recurve bows were massively less powerful than the beast Tod is shooting here.
I find the wood penetration test interesting. I'm more of a firearms guy and I remember a test for Acceptable Military Calibers. It was a penetration test using a 3/4" (18mm) pine board.
Turned out even the lowly 22 caliber could pass that benchmark.
Super fun to see your arrows splitting kindling.
If I shad to guess about the oak door story I would’ve bet anything they meant exactly what we saw here. Some guys in a castle with a thick oak door started seeing longbow arrows start poking through the door a few inches and probably thought huh ok shit. That arrow actually poked its way through the door. Not sailed through
I actually think there was some truth in that myth, and it all comes down to how tight the plank was framed on the side. Like we saw in the first few tests with unframed planks, the arrows easily split the planks apart. So in case the plank wasn't held tight on the side, like with some cheap carts or doors that had some gaps between the planks, an arrow could very well split a plank and went right through it.
@@Secret_Moon A normal hut door could / would break down by arrow fire, but a reinforced castle door? I thins they are a) way to thick and b) are reinforced good enough for this not to happen.
@@Seelenschmiede Yes, I did say only with cheap doors and carts with gaps between the planks that this thing might have happened.
Also, I think the deciding factor is not how thick the planks were but how big the gaps between the planks were. We saw in the test that oak planks are very easy to be split if nothing holds them together. If there is a gap the size of the arrow diameter between the planks, the arrow can easily crack and push the two half of the plank apart to fly through.
@@Secret_Moon why should there be gaps? Medievil craftsman were very good in their jobs. So when you can interlocking planks today, they could make them too. Is this the modern viewpoint of "everything in the medievil time was shoddy and badly crafted"?
Maybe an old cart, after decades of use got rattly loose planks with gabs in between, but who would use it and why would a longbow archer attack this person?
Yes, wood works when it ages, but there is a thing called maintenance. Especially for high risk structures like castle doors.
@@Seelenschmiede wood shrinks as it ages. After twenty years of good care even the best crafted wood items start to get a bit wobbly.
Edit: from a medical professional and history nerd: i have studied medieval and older medical books and writing, the reality is that the silk Mongol myth is not that it will pull the arrow easily, but that the wound will be cleaner. Meaning no fabric in the wound that will lead to infection. The other myth is the capes the horse archers used, which will deviate the arrow and reduce the spinning action and there for causing smaller wound. Maybe have a fan blowing at a big peace of cape and shoot at it? On the silk again the silk was worn under armour, maybe it made then the removal easier or just kept the wound cleaner.
Thank you! I was the one who requested silk cape or shirts! Thank you so much for testing it.
The billowing capes were tested that way and they seemed to work. Some arrows had their heads entangled in the silk but didn't hit the body.
@@DreadX10 got a video of that?
Lets face it. The mongol arrows worked quite well against the Chinese even when they wore silk. On the other hand I can imagine that there was some kind of Asian gambeson made of silk that worked like a gambeson an got translated as silk "shirt" Just as the medieval Norse called their gambeson as vápntreyja or weapon shirt.
Pretty much it was layered silk under amor it helped just like a western gambeson but both got shot through regularly
The Deel, there's one at Royal armouries in Leeds, 4 layers of something closer to habotai, cut on different weave angles and the edges bound, I'd love to see an arrow Vs that.
the silk never stopped the arrow, but rather helped dull the edge to help minimize the damage, it likely was layered, however.
I am a bit disappointed he missed this. But he also missed the fact the Normans Brought the longbow to the English when William The Conquerer
Invaded England and took the throne in 1066 after the famous battle of Hastings.
Entertaining channel and I appreciate what he tries to do, however....
It's also worth considering just how loose/much extra fabric in said slik shirt. pulling the fabric nearly taught the arrow will punch right through. perhaps having it looser like on a more flowing silk shirt would be a contributing factor. I think it's a matter of is the shirt strong enough to slow the arrow down and pull more material in with it. - A completely uneducated/scientific thought
@@Blackhawck50 i think these arrows are too heavy and bow too powerful for silk. It's more possible silk would help against weaker bows, lighter arrows. So the Mary rose had all these powerful bows in it, and this sunk around 1550, when militaries were getting their most professional and armour was at its peak. I suspect (a guess ofcourse) if we went back 100 years earlier, the typical military soldier was shooting only 120lb. Point is, Todd is really testing the pinnacle of warbow power, and i'm not entirely sure such power is representative of the majority of medieval warfare.
Tod, total respect for your 'self peer reviewing'. The adamant sweeping statement is a trap it must be easy to fall into if you do your type of video and subject matter but you pulled it back from the edge of the slippery slope.
The silk shirt thing seems almost self-explanatory. Even if we imagine for a moment that Mongolian silk was so absurdly durable that the arrow would not in fact tear through it but rather push the fabric into the body, the shirt would have to be so loose (or exceedingly elastic, which we know it wouldn't have been) that you can push the garment several inches into the body without tightening it enough that the arrowhead will puncture it. They'd have to have been wearing XXXXXL shirts.
If you wrap some cloth around a leg of lamb at roughly the same "tightness" as a shirt typically sits on a human body, and push your finger into it, you don't get very far before you begin to meet resistance. The arrowhead would tear right through the fabric as soon as any kind of resistance is met.
Its interesting to note that a a lot of knight surcoats was made of silk. My theory is that's it's useful when layered and lose like a surcoat would be.
i thought on the Mongolian war garments it was armor over a multi layered silk kaftan.
It is and both the layers and armor help slow the arrows.
Also most of the legends about Silk are about when its wet.
What wasnt dificult since the mongols where traveling hours untill Battle, so their own swet would do the job.
This has been tested by another chanel and it was evident that the silk undershirt worn beneath a layer of armor does provide a great benefit
Am still confused why the mongols shot themselves....
Todd refers to Mongolian arrows when talking about the silk myth.
@@DreadX10 Because they were a bunch of tribes that constantly waged war on themselfs as well as with anyone around them. Its not like they were a united entity.
Todd that silk test reminds me of a bit of kit some samurai wore which was a cape that would inflate like a balloon at speed due to drag which was proposed to stop arrows. On the history channel they showed that as effective but as we all know that can be a quite unreliable source at times and I think it would be interesting to test up to what poundage that armor was effective for. Just an idea for that silk armor video coming down the pipe.
Dear Tod, I seem to remember something about silk shirts and vikings from my country Denmark, where this myth is also said. I am fairly convinced that the silk shirt, is more like a silk hauberk, or rather a gambeson. I hope you'll consider doing the test with several layers of silk like in a gambeson, with every layer having alternating grains. I think this will make a big difference.
Is there any difference between that and a normal gamberson
Also knight surcoats often was made of silk that was layered to some extent. Its wasn't gambeson thick but it was a few layers. That and middle eastern cultures and byzantines used silk on the battlefield it just wasn't used by its self.
~12:00 I've actually looked into the rotation of arrows for a novel I'm working on. In general, IIRC, a typical arrow will rotate along its axis at roughly 1% per foot of travel. Whether this was true a thousand years ago I suppose depends greatly on how they made their arrows. A greater curve on the fletching would probably lead to a greater spin, but not by that much.
Further, the arrows 'flex' as the power coming from the string hits the nock of the arrow first, leaving the tip reacting slower. Each arrow flexes mid-air. This flexing depends on the stiffness or 'spine' of the arrow and how it was released.
Different bows and release techniques contribute differently to how an arrow flies. Now, a crossbow and a compound bow can be similar to a longbow except for the fact that the arrow will be released using some form of mechanical aid.
This makes the arrow wobble less randomly and more consistently mid air. What I am saying here is that a shooting the same arrow from an actual longbow would make it fly differently and what you could see there would be that the arrow is pushed in in a bit more wobbly way. When hitting a 25.4mm wood this could mean that your bodkin would break earlier as it would receive diagonal stress.
The thing about DRILLING is that it's a very LOW forward velocity, and a very high rpm, in order to minimize chip thickness. Certainly there are drills and material combinations that allow much faster forward movement for the same rpm, but as a general rule; the rpm required for drilling is a VASTLY larger number than the forward velocity.
So are ANY arrows, modern or medieval, drilling into targets? Definitively, no. And as a machinist I don't feel any doubt what so ever in that answer.
Is an arrow TWISTING inside a target? In some cases like armor strikes (where armor is usually quite thin >20mm), not enough to matter. In cases of going through a body or especially game, yes it's absolutely twisting as it goes through.
But TWISTING is not the same as DRILLING. The act of the the arrow twisting doesn't actually increase it's ability to penetrate.
In fact, an argument could tenuously be made that because a twisting arrow has to travel through more linear material through the body of say a deer, it's actually reducing the amount of penetration.
So then, COULD an arrow be made to DRILL through a target? Well, not really, no.
The thing about drilling is it invariably takes time to do. So at the very extreme end of design, you'd need an arrow spinning at thousands of rpm, with a spring resisted weight system inside the shaft so the arrow could actually maintain a pressure against a target while it was drilling into it. But here's the catch that makes it impossible: you also need to stabilize that force 100% absolutely directly perpendicular, or the arrow destabilizes in drilling and just flings off in a random direction.
If anyone has any doubt that an arrow ISN'T drilling into a target, then imagine this scenario: A drill chuck with a drill is spinning 2000rpm in a drill press. That chuck falls out of the quill onto a workpiece, and for sake of exaggeration lets say the table isn't in place and the workpiece is on the floor. How far into the workpiece is that drill going to make it before it falls to the side?
It's going to make a dent, and that's about it.
A great analysis - thank you
clearly we need rocket propelled arrows that spin into the target.
...this is totally still classified as an arrow.
Great comment. My question now is does the arrow twist enough in the target to create appreciably more tissue damage?
@@mjfleming319 Logically only if your close enough for friction to have not reduced the spin before it hits the target. But still the rotation would have to be much higher than was apparent to me
hmmm, quite interesting
do you think it would be possible to have a fletching style that would increase the rpm of an arrow?
I was also curious if some form of 'propeller-bladed arrowhead' could increase rotation?
This is just a perfect example of balance between empiricism and rationalism. The "little interventions" that corrected certain adamant statements as rational deductions ("maybe on other scenarios and with other materials this might work") balace out the empirical experiments ("let's test it out and see"). I kinda got here by accident but watched the video to the end and I am amazed by how the interventions were so on-point that turned this into a lesson of knowing one's own limitations and striving to make what you do in the best way you can. This guy has become an inspiration to me.
So much respect for you interrupting yourself in this, so many people wouldn't have bothered and just sent it out as is
I pretty much always like your levelheaded format and therefore really appreciate your adding more extensive explanation in regards to the point of view you're talking from. As you said, if someone expects the arrow to pass through and keep flying it did not pass through, while if someone is thinking about the head and maybe a few fingers of wood, it does. Also maybe the person was thinking about a board and not a structure... and so on.
Which is why this is my favourite channel in regards to these things, most of the others kinda annoyed me with their adamant statements that "there never was any kind of leather armor" when what they meant to say was "there is no evidence for leather clothing like jackets, as they're seen in games or movies (as they usually want to position themselves against movie- and rpg-armor), to be worn as armor, and it's also highly unlikely (wouldn't have made sense) due to..."
Wouldn’t they have worn the silk underneath their armour as well? Just as a sort of last line? Rather than just the silk? Could be worth trying.
Great video!
They and meny other eastern nation's wore meny, meny layes of silk as armour, it worked against swords but I'm not sure about the arrows. The first bulletproof vest make by Jan Szczepanik, was of silk.
Plus He did show one huge advantage of those silk cloths: The fibers didn't get pulled into the wound.
Which should be an improvement over wool or linen fibers getting into the wound.
Not to mention that arrow stops work by having a cloth hanging lose from a wire.
If you wear loads of lose flowering silk clothes, the arrow will be decelerated before it reaches the body.
Just like with a modern arrow stop barrier.
If you place that in front of a target, even target pointed arrows will just punch through it as well.
I heard a silk shirt was worn under chainmail for the effect Tod described.
Can't beat silk knickers, just sayin'
@@wadekirby8575 that would make sense to me. If only the tip of the arrow is getting through, then the silk would probably prove useful in getting the arrow out.
Tod, I think most medieval boards were riven, not sawn. A riven board is split on the quarter and denser than a modern flat sawn board like you used in your test. Also, the longer the board the more difficult it will be for the arrow to split. Love your your work and the way you explore historic problems!
Can i just say, the whole "hey guys, just so you know, i was being a bit dumb about things- I'ma come in and call myself out a few times, sorry." is- kind of amazing. The fact that you're willing to call yourself out- when- to be honest, not a lot of people do- nice going man.
Calling oneself out on occasions should be a thing
I appreciate a creator who can critique his own video like this. Well done.
wonder what Tod's wife thinks about him shooting the Sunday roast...
.. it's dead, Todd ...
He was ordered to tenderize it.
'Kebabs it is then . . .'
Probably better than shooting the neighbour's cat.
It's cheaper than a 3D replacement insert.
Correcting yourself and avoiding the broad generalized statements is one of the reasons why I love this channel.
Even if they spin like crazy, arrows don't have enough inertia for the spin to have any "drilling" effect. Simple physics, man.
absolutely
Plus flathead arrows or those cross shaped cross section modern hunting arrows would not work if the arrow was spinning anything close to bullet fast.
even without the camera you can tell by the hole it makes. if it did drill the hole would be round and you dont see many round holes from a broad head or a bodkin etc, so how people got to this i dont know.
you forget this is the internet. Where all basement trolls are experts on subjects while all of them forgetting about nature's laws that proove then wrong everytime
@@yareyare_dechi
It's not quite similar, but I have seen several light novels/manga/comics/fanfics/etc that seem to think that any attack, particularly projectile attacks, would get stronger if the attack also spun around like a drill. The general idea seems to be that a spin would somehow put more 'force' into the attack.
I'm not 100% where this idea came from or how it got popular, but from what I can tell(with minimal research mind you), the basic idea seems to come from bullets.
Basically, someone heard about guns having rifling for gyroscopic stabilization, but didn't really get the idea of gyroscopic stabilization, so came away with the very basic idea of 'projectile+spin=better'. People thought it made enough sense I guess, because it didn't take long for 'make it spin' became kind of a go-to method for upgrading an attack after the first spinny attacks started coming out.
It used to be rather common a few years back, but seems to have lost popularity for the most part.
.
As a side note, even if we ignored the lack of inertia and 'definitely not drilled' holes, there's also the fact that most arrowheads are very clearly not designed with drilling into anything in mind. How anyone would see a broadhead and go 'yep, that looks like it's supposed to drill into things', I've no idea.
I feel like the oak wood myth is only partially served here. Love what you've done!
On the oak myth, doors, top wood plank framing a wagons bed, aren't 100% framed. For example, a door may be fully framed if closed, though it is gapped to a degree between it's framing. Some doors, swinging doors, may not be framed at all top and bottom. Very in between examples of unframed and fully framed.
Wagons, the side walls of a wagon usually only go so high. The top board on the side wall of the wagon would have no bracing on the top side. Possibly no bracing on the bottom side depending on if there's full board gaps between the top board and the next board below. Sometimes a full boards width gap exists. Curious.
Huge respect for being able to correct yourself in the video :D
Thank you
The second you started shooting at the planks I said to myself well its not nailed down or held by bracing in a frame, so its not a great test. But as you always do Tod, you realised the same thing and adjusted the test accordingly. This is why I love this channel so much, it may not be rocket science, but you definitely come up with the most definitive tests that Ive seen. Loved this one even if you felt it needed the popups. Cheers mate!
It shows you take enough pride in your work, your channel, and your equipment that you'll go back and correct errors or pull yourself up for being too sure, and that is a rare quality these days for sure :)
Take into account that a silk shirt (or armor? gambison-esque?) would've been used in conjuction with actual armor, be it chain, lamellar, etc.
Those would be the primary detract of the arrow's power. So the question would be if the arrow went only slightly in - would the silk shirt do what the myth says?
Or perhaps, would a silk gambison behave differently (in general) than a, for example, linen one? Now that's an interesting notion to test.
I simply don't know the basis of the myth, but I would imagine that silk gambesons would work very well
@@tods_workshop I suppose a more suitable test would be a bodkin against a medium carbon steel plate backed by layered silk/paper.
I would like to add that silk is also flame resistant. So there's a benefit to that in accordance with the sort of weaponry that the mongols might've faced?
@@tods_workshop From what I can remember, the Mongols got a lot of silk when they raided China in 1211. Since they shared spoils equally, every soldier would have been given silk, so that if one could make a shirt of it, they all could. I don't know if they had enough to make gambesons. As I understand it, the idea was not to pull out the arrow WITH(by) the silk, but pull it out with(together with) the silk. The silk supposedly prevented barbs from eating into the flesh, and so made them easier to pull out without further injury. Even so, a silk undershirt must be comfortable to wear, and would prevent chafing when riding on horseback for days and weeks.
Very possibly once you start layering and orienting material that’s where you can start to some strange results for a material science standpoint.
Love how you approached the final edit on this video. A massive amount of integrity and honesty shown.
Thanks
Even bullets don't drill into targets, they don't weigh enough to overcome the friction when they hit the target.
A better indication that arrows don't drill into targets is that the arrows don't have drill bits as their heads.
These videos are brilliant, the way you analyse everything and give the footage along with the conclusions are brilliant.
Thank you
I think you should have only done one shot. You're putting a lot more pressure on the silk when you pulling on 3 arrows. I'm not sure if it would have made a difference, but it's worth considering. Most people aren't going to get shot 3 times in the same location before finally deciding to find cover :D
We all have our off days (especially in recent times!) I'm new to your content but have to say it is brilliant and this video goes to show why, you watched and pulled yourself up on something. Self awareness is a great attribute to have in life and someone of us struggle with it.
Keep up the great content (must be tough with our lockdowns) can't wait for you to get back with a bit of a team doing tests, that's no criticism of you but that wealth of knowledge in a youtube video was striking 👍
the selling point of silk is that it doesn't rip apart and gets inside of the wound like other fabrics
If that’s why your buying silk may i interest you in Kevlar or other aramids
This was my understanding too - its not about stopping the arrow or easing its removal , its to prevent infection after by not having fragments of leather/sackcloth left in the body.
@@pmk198908 I think using silk is not necessarily a bad idea. You could say that silk is a 'natural Kevlar' . At least chemically both are liquid crystals with similar properties.
@@xTh3be5tx one of them is regularly used in bullet-resistance applications, the other isn’t. This was a stupid myth that at best got misinterpreted over the centuries and at was worst was pseudoscience bullshit. I’m glad we’re finally putting it to bed
@@pmk198908 just making sure that you do understand bulletproof vests were made of layered silk before invention of aramids. and were prohibitively expensive.
As far as the oak penetration is concerned: in addition to the piece of oak that the arrow head obviously pierced, you had a backstop target board that also obviously kept the arrow from penetrating deeper. I would suggest taping the "framed" oak to a cardboard box and see how much penetration one gets.
I believe the History Channel on TV did a "quilted gambeson style silk shirt" test some years ago that showed that with the typical light Mongol arrows fired from the typical Mongol horn recurve bow, that the silk was effective in reducing the penetration, helped stop possible bleeding, and could assist in the removal of an arrow. (Your mileage may vary!)
I would consider the "silk shirt" test with leather/lamellar armor over the silk, and an accurate weight/style bow and arrow. Otherwise, the test itself is discounted. Silk was the last line of defense (in theory), not the first.
Hey Tod, very enjoyable video. Thanks for taking the time not only to make it but to add the extra commentary. Your good intentions definitely come across and confirm what we already thought: that you're a likeable guy. Cheers.
This was a perfectly fine video even without the clarifying edits. No rants here. I have not studied physics in 30 years, but can't you pretty much rule out the possibility of spinning? Yes the arrow is going to spin in flight, but it only has its own weight to give it angular momentum, and the angular momentum imparted by the fletchings doesn't seem significant when the arrow is turning inside solid wood, mail, or flesh. Unless that 160 lb bow imparts considerable spin at the start of the shot I don't see how air resistance on feathers is going to create that much force.
It would also be pretty horrible design if that much energy went into the spin rather than the actual shot. A bit of rotation is nice for stability in flight but the absolute majority of energy should be used to propel the arrow and give it range. If anyone wanted the arrow to really spin then both the fletchings and the arrowhead would have some type of screw shape.
The same really goes for the silk shirt. Expecting the arrow to cut behind the silk but not through it feels like expecting a sheathed sword to cut something without damaging the sheath.
This is not to disparage the video or the tests, it just sometimes astounds me how much common myths/assumptions seem to go against intuition.
Props to you on coming back thu and clarifying your meaning and points certainly helps to understand
Hi Tod,
I actually know where the door story comes from. There was a chronicle on the English's wars in Wales, and an account of a skirmish between the English and Welsh: 'Two soldiers ran over a bridge to take refuge in one of the Casde towers. Welsh
archers, shooting from behind them, drove their arrows into the oak door of the
tower with such force that the arrowheads penetrated the wood of the door which
was nearly a hand thick; and the arrows were preserved in that door as a memento.'
You can find more info and a specific source in the book "Longbow: a social and military history" (pg36)
If they're just "penetrating", which I interpret as the points sticking out the backside, and multiple archers are firing, then I could believe that. The wood would give more and more with each arrow.
i'm so glad he "fixed" the door test. while watching i was like... that piece of wood is too small it just gets split, a door wouldn't ... just then: in come the frame. Thanks Tod, that's the quality of testing i've gotten used to expect from your videos!
I’d love to see politicians fact-check their own speeches this way!
your approach to your enthusiastic statements and own fallibility does you credit, thanks for sharing your own nuanced thinking.
Lockdown longbow is the actual best thing to come out of the lockdown change my mind
we won't!
America just launched its own astronauts to the moon again via SpaceX recently. Or the Starlink satellites that will allow us to watch Tod's Workshop in the middle of the ocean is pretty good. Or the new Jeorg magazine for his repeating crossbow? In all honesty the Lockdown Longbow series has been great though I haven't missed one :)
I dunno, getting a free $4000 from the government was lit. I got an AR15 and a glock from it.
Your rants made perfect sense. The one trick used to stop arrows with silk was the silken sail attached to the backs of riding warriors at the shoulders and hips with enough extra length to form a bubble behind the rider, a bit like a spinnaker sail. Such sail will flap left to right vigorously in the turbulence behind the rider's back. The lateral motion of the sail could draw the tip of the arrow away from the arrow's trajectory. As the real impulse of the arrow is carried at its centre of mass, the COG, the arrow head is no longer really where the arrow delivers its punch to push into the target. Moreover air is not massless. As the arrow is made go sideways more and more by the flapping sail, it more and more delivers its punch to the silk. The sail is deformed and thus needs to displace air trapped under it. This volume of air easily has hundreds of Gramms. This mass of air serves as shock absorber! I think it was on a programme with Mike Loades where they demonstrated this principle works pretty reliably.
One thing I've heard said about silk vs. arrows is that Mongols would wear a silk *cape* that would billow out behind them, and that the billowing cape would entangle any arrows falling down towards them (ie. shot in an arc at long range), robbing them of momentum and pulling them to strike at a different angle so that the arrow would only cause minor wounds at worst.
Is there any truth in that? I have no idea...
This has been tested and yes it worked. With loose fabric, the arrowhead takes the silk with it (but not always) and now has to accelerate all that cloth (oriented perpendicular to the arrows flightpath) so it looses a lot of momentum in those last feet to the target.
Ever seen a mongol with a cape in a depiction? Traditional mongol clithes are made out of felt, not silk.
@@shrekas2966 I absolutely have seen depictions of Mongols with capes in secondary sources, but I have no idea if those are based on depictions or descriptions from primary sources, or just based on the imagination of the artists. Which is part of why I said I have no idea if there's any truth to it.
@@randalthor741 thing is, who do you call a mongol?
The most accurate depiction of early mongol expansion ive seen depicts then wearing similar lamellar armors like chinese made out of steel or leather, sometimes both. They are worn on a somple kaftan, which was mostly wool back then. no capes on top.
The depiction was made by one of the middle eastern dynasties.
@@randalthor741 brewminate.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/111319-36-History-Medieval-Middle-Ages-Mongol-China.jpg
My favorite channel on these types of topics!
"Drilling into the target"
"Spinning causes more damage than the impact"
"Spinning bullets penetrate deeper"
"Hollow point bullets are buzz-saws inside the body"
"If the bullet doesn't spin, it can't penetrate the target."
...
Every one of these 'truths' about spinning bullets/arrows/spears have been refuted the same way: slow-motion films.
Yes, a bullet spins in flight, around one rotation per 18" of flight on average for rifles, one in 9" for pistols.
If your soft target is two feet thick, that 'Devil Bullet' is going to spin about twice as it passes through.
Hardly a buzz-saw or a drill, those two rotations...
Man, if we started talking about guns, we'd never run out of myths. :D
The fuddlore gave me 'nam flashbacks
Only contention I have with this analysis is that we don't know whether the rotational momentum decreases at the same proportional rate as the linear momentum. In fact I should imagine it doesn't as the only thing stopping the bullet rotating is friction along the surface rather than impact with a target for the linear momentum (although admittedly the friction would be very high given it scales linearly with the normal force, or the force acting to arrest the bullet). So, as the bullet slows down linearly, we might expect it to still be rotating relatively quickly and the number of rotations per cm to increase, possibly quite significantly.
The big point for me, is the test about arrows penetrating a wooden door...
I love how you're so aware and cautious about your blanket statements. Huge respect for self-awareness and correction like that!
I'd also say that sometimes you're being a little harsh on yourself! Things like 'do arrows drill?' were pretty clear, and categorically saying that they don't isn't that bad!
The big point for me, though, is the test about arrows penetrating wood. I think you mounted the wooden target board *far* more securely than a medieval doorframe would! Such a door would likely be loosely mounted on its hinges, in its portal. I suspect that it would likely be far better represented by your 'loose' board shooting than the secure frame you built for the later tests.
Bear in mind how most doors were fastened, and I think it's actually pretty possible that your first few tests (before you framed the target Oak board) would be a better representation of an arrow hitting a door, than your 'corrected' tests were!
Great video anyway, I get a ton of entertainment out of your channel!
I heard the mongols used silk capes to catch and slow the arrows as they were riding away the cape billows behind at a 45 ish degree angle to the angle of attack like sloped tank armor (accept not hard) wonder if you can debunk that one.
Panic The Scholar Knight. I don’t know if they actually did this, but I saw a feature about this on some history channel type show, where they test weapons & do experimental archaeology. As long as the silk was billowed out, it was incredibly effective at stopping or considerably slowing the arrows. I will caveat that with the fact that I can’t recall if they were shooting with high poundage bows or any kind of war points.
This probably would help I've seen rows of curtains stop small calibur rounds because they deflect going through them. Then again arrows are alot heavier and might deflect less
The silk bag work.
I saw a document 10-15 years a go where it was tested and it stopped an arrow.
Main issue with that documentary is that they were using a light draw weight kyudo bows, and not a war yumi so the results might actually be different
By the way it's called Horo:
gunbai-militaryhistory.blogspot.com/2018/02/horo-samurai-cape.html?m=1
Tod popping in from time to time to criticise himself was both instructive and hilarious at the same time. Nice way of doing it.
That does prove that a reasonable thickness of Oak is an effective armor against arrows.
Armor is only reasonable if it’s a reasonable weight
At the very least a shield. But it's still gonna be super heavy
@@Specter_1125 reasonable weight would depend on context. body armour or warwagon/ship/siege tower armour?
@@Yorick257 Yep. Shields were laminated for that very reason - to make them sturdier than equal weight of plain wood.
Guy inside a log yelling at archers: what are you going to do without your pointy twang sticks now huh!
I really like this video where you came back and described a more moderate viewpoint. It's so the way that these things go where are you producing video and then in the editing room you think about what you said. In my opinion do this all the time
iirc the "silk armor" is analogous to a gambeson, not a silk shirt.
Even then, the point of a gambeson isn't for the fabric to be pulled into the wound and facilitate extracting the arrow, it's to prevent penetration in the first place.
@@maximsavage well, maybe the Mongols had regular armour to slow down the arrow head mostly, and had a loose fitting silk shirt under everything else.
So that the full speed arrow head can not be stopped, but slowed down arrow head after it penetrated all the other armour layer, can be wrapped around with final silk layer as it penetrade the skin.
@@davidjacobs8558 That sounds... plausible, perhaps. It would make for a worthwhile test, at the very least. We know for a fact that the mongols had armor, a kind of leather lamellar, for instance, and that some also wore mail. However, if this hypothesis has any chance of being true, I think we'll need a weaker bow to test it. As far as I know, and I might be wrong, 160 lbs of draw weight wasn't very common in the eurasian steppe. I've seen 120 lbs longbows shoot clean through a shirt of properly riveted mail, it was like the armor didn't exist as far as that arrow was concerned. But, we know that mail could stop arrows, which suggests those bows were weaker.
@@maximsavage No. The Mongolian compound bow alledgedly had a draw weight of 150lbs as standard. The silk khalat was multi-layered and used for the exact reasons described. It wasn't a one layer silk shirt from marks and spencer or something.
@@BADALEX1 Then we need a new test with a historically accurate khalat, with and without armor over it.
Todd, I am genuinely considering using a few clips of your "adamant assertions" vs your post-edited discussion to show my students the fone line between discussing your data and making generalized (and too assertive) conclusions based on your data. Very well done!
I seriously didn't recognize him without the stubble. He was like "It's Tod of Tod's workshop here." and I was like "You're not Tod!" and went clicking on his channel to find out who this geezer is. GROW THE BEARD BACK TOD! PLEASE, I'M SCARED. :(
I know it's terrifying. I shat myself when I saw him. Jumping out of airplanes in the RAF back in the 1970s was a doddle compared to this. Nothing compares to this sight. I would rather be in the front wave over the top at the Somme than see that horror again. 'THE HORROR! THE HORROR!' (Citing Marlon Brando in 'Apocalypse Now') An alien clone version.! (just kidding!). As to the video itself, As someone else has remarked here already, his self criticism unlike our MSM who never acknowledge their mistakes or bias, gives me trust in this man and his show. Todd is great, though his name in German means 'death'. Great show, great guy!
These physical demonstrations, however limited, are worth so much more than any amount of knowledgeable speculation.
Well done!
I'd like Tod to turn up and clarify my statements in real time in this manner whenever I become too opinionated...
While you may say that you would like that it would quickly become annoying and irritating.
Source: Decades of marriage.
I like the segway into explanation on the side videos. Thank you.
I've never heard the drilling one, but surely, if it were true, we'd see drill bit shaped arrowheads, that would better exploit that action?
I've definitely seen such arrow points before, with a twisting design
I have heard of using single bevel broad head to accentuate the twisting in a target. Not sure it really helps.
The "drill bit" wouldn’t cause as much damage as a Brodhead with fixed blades. Imagine a Brodhead going straight in, and cutting a straight path the whole way in. Now imagine turning the Brodhead as it goes in. Which causes more surface area cut?
I'd guess it's simply a marketing ploy: without the constant input of force (cf a drill), the twisting/rotational action would be quickly countered by the friction of the arrowhead's rotation within the penetration/wound. Plus, arrowheads don't spin as fast as a rifled shot (or have the bullet's initial momentum energy), & the attached shaft would also induce friction drag as it penetrates deeper
In summary: good idea as a thought experiment, but unlikely (to say the least) to work in practice :)
Yet another cracking video with a bunch of fascinating data. Cheers!
If nothing else you've come up with a fun way to make kindling.
Good to keep in mind that it's the passage of air across the fletchings over time that imparts spin to an arrow. A longer flight would have it spinning faster. It's not like a rifle, where the bullet exits the muzzle and instantly exhibits its maximum rpm. Fantastic video, as always. You're doing great experiments that get us thinking. Thanks!
Open up youtube and see an upload from Tod from 1 min ago? Gonna be a good day!
It has been a year, good sir. The fact you recognized potential biases and worked to clarify.
Still a very good video.
The spinning myth reminds me of the 7.63x39 rounds tumbling myth.
Great video again! Received my ordered dagger today, really love it!
Notification Squad - already know its going to be a good one!
Tod, I'm *really* impressed with you going out of your way to balance this video. This balancing shows integrity and commitment which is very welcome and impressive!
Also, whenever I heard you say "leg of lamb", part of my heard "Legolas"!
Tangentially, early bullet resistant soft armor vests were constructed with layered silk and were quite good at protecting wearers from pistol calibers 100 years ago. EDIT Whoops: Tod mentions this. I jumped the gun with this comment.
It's very good padded. the same thickness of paper would also stop the bullet very cleanly, but the silk vest had the "advantage" that it could be worn by a nobleman under a coat. Of course we must take its bullet-stopping capacities at its inventor's word, and it was never really used.
@@ABAlphaBeta I’m referring to soft armor from 1920’s America made for police officers. These layered silk vests absolutely stopped pistol caliber bullets. You can easily find film clips from the time. I see that my first comment wasn’t clear that I was referring only to the 20th Century.
@@bombfog1 layers of cloth to this day stop small calibur rounds. I'm guessing they used silk because it's lighter and less hot that wool or cotton
@@goreobsessed2308 Silk has a very high tensile strength which is what you want for soft body armour and before the advent of synthetic fibres like nylon and Kevlar silk was the best you could get.
Jumped the gun. I saw what you did there.
Tod, I love your honesty!
Hat's off to you, mate.
I believe in modern times some bullet resistant vests were made that seemed to be on a par with Kevlar. A Kevlar vest however has many layers and so may the vests of the ancients. The things may have been sown and glued together to make a composite as well. I don't know for sure because I was not there.
Arrows can penetrate Kevlar vests with ease....multiple layers of silk would provide little to no protection against arrow strikes.
@@felixdzerjinsky5244 The Greeks developed and used linen armor. Silk is much stronger. Maybe you've never heard of composites but the idea isn't new.
Todd, you are a true scientist. Thank you for your honesty and integrity
One thought about the silk....
I remember a video in which silk against arrows were tested in the context of japanese samurais.
Sadly I do not remember who made this video.
It was about samurais on horseback wearing some kind of silk shirts.
The shirts "balloned" because of the speed of the galloping horse.
And these "balloned" silk had some stopping power against arrows.
Due to distance between silk and body of the samurai. The silk "catches" the arrow and slows the arrow down.
Sorry but my english skills cant explain it better.
I hope this comment helps.
Plenty of loose material is key, similar to how archery back stop netting works.
A horo? I've seen that in a video but it's a large cape that blows behind you on horseback not a shirt. It does work but by grabbing onto the arrow head and wrapping around the shaft because its loosely blowing in the air.
Im always blown away by how hard hitting those old school arrows are. They certainly land with authority
"To start with, it's not the english longbow, it's the welsh longbow"
YESSSS!!!! Finally, usually from what I've seen the english are perfectly happy pretending the celts in general never existed and all our good ideas are just kind of theirs. Glad to see someone acknowledge that's not actually the case.
Ehhh, hes sort of right and sort of wrong.
The Welsh were the first to use the longbow, however an English Longbow is not the same as a Welsh Longbow.
Welsh Longbows were roughly five and a half feet long and of a lower poundage than English Longbows, which tended to be 6 foot long or longer and of much higher poundages.
The Welsh gave the English the idea, and the English expanded on it.
Great work, Tod !