Been watching your videos George. Great info on the PID controllers. I ordered components and built one with your help. It works great. I am modifying it to work in my Pit Boss smoker. I found a digital volt/amp meter with a inductive amp pick up. Works great. Thanks and keep up the good work.
If you don't need to know resistance, just do "watts / volts = amps". So for a 2000W heater on 240V, you would do "2000 / 240 = 8.33". With two of those heaters, the load is then 16.66. but for continuous loads like heating, which can remain on for more than 3h at a time, you have to protect the wire by calculating it at 125% of the load. So 16.66 * 1.25 = 20.825 amps. Since you're going past 20, you should then be using 10awg wire with a 30 amp breaker to be wired properly and up to code.
These calculations are pretty helpful George. Except that it helps you figure out the circuit that you need to support the element that you select. What would be *really* helpful is to figure out the element(s) needed first and then the circuit required to support it. Figure the element out by the speed at which it will heat the volume. Say a five-gallon charge... How many watts would it take (on average) to heat that from room temperature to...say...150F in 30 minutes? Once I knew that, I could then decide on the element necessary for the still. And also, maybe once I know that, I won't have to wire up a 240v circuit and instead use an existing 20A 120 dedicated circuit.. Thanks!
National Electrical Code says you can only have 80% on a continuous load. 80% of a 20amp breaker is 16. You’d probably get away with the 18.? Amps but it will heat up.
I'd like to see you address issues of using a dryer circuit. Most of us have that and many have it in a garage where they may distill or mash. These 30 amp circuits are 3 or 4 prong and the 4 prong ones have a neutral lead which lends itself to feeding 2 120 volt branch circuits or a single 240 volt one. This should be ideal for dual element stills. It seems that the starting point in heat design is size of the boiler, number of elements and then the electrical feed available. The 3 prong outlets are more common and mostly suitable for 240 volt circuits. 7,200 watts should be adequate for anything at home.
Awesome help videos George! So by combining different elements to get to the right combination of wattage that is most efficient, are these elements wired in series or parallel?
Parallel. In a series circuit provides only one lath for electricity to travel so the same current flows through each element but the voltage is divided by each element. In a parallel circuit there is more than one path so the voltage across each element is the same and the total current is equal. Hope this helps George
Great video as usual George, but IMHO you didn't discuss the more common scenario of running two elements off of one receptacle. For example, modern house wiring uses two separate circuits per receptacle, one for the top plug and one for the bottom. To wire this to your PID controller you would need to run two power cords to the controller. My question is do you need two PIDs or can you use one to trigger both circuits and elements? Thanks.
Be cautious, normal house wiring does not have two circuits per outlet. One single outlet is attached to one end of the receptacle and then wire run from that receptacle goes to the next one. I believe that code restricts 10 receptacles per circuit.
@@BarleyandHopsBrewing Hi George, thanks for responding so quickly. My house and garage are wired so that each plug on a receptacle is on a separate circuit. You know the brass connector on the side of the receptacle is broken. I think you showed this on one of your videos. Breaking the connector separates the top plug from the bottom one, at least that is what I thought it was for. If you had one heater on one circuit and another on a different circuit you would have to run two power cords to the PID, but would you need another PID or could you run them both off of just one? Thanks
@@snappingbear Okay, this is more clear now. If you want to use 2 circuits one PID can do this but you would need 2 SSRs to trip independently. The PID can handle this. You also need to run a power line in from both circuits. Should be easy enough. You could possibly get by with 1 SSR but my fear is that if your 2 circuits are out of phase and you had them both connected to one SSR you could potentially get 240V instead of 120. Te be safe use 2 SSRs. It's the best route and more direct, easy to find faults etc.
Thanks George. I saw a video last night that gave me an idea how to do it a different way then the one I mentioned. I could wire two power cords from two out-of-phase circuits into a 240V plug and then feed a cord from that plug to the PID monitor and wire it following your instructions on wiring 240V PIDs. That way I would only need one SSR and one heating element of 240V instead of two 120V elements to get the same wattage. In this scenario it would give me 240V and 20A for 4400 watts of heatng power. This is the video I was talking about, what do you think about doing this? th-cam.com/video/LZbIJZe_YDs/w-d-xo.html
You obviously have an electrical background. I too like EIR but I figured the majority who doesn't have that background would find it a little easier to follow along and make sense of it. Thanks George
Hello George, I love your videos on PID controllers. I'm considering upgrading to an 16 gal boiler. I was really leaning toward using 240v / 30a with 2 - 3500w elements. not sure if that would make sense or how to wire it as a parallel circuit. Your thoughts? Thank-you - The Toledo Tuna
Aaron, this is a good idea. If it were me I would wire one of the elements as a static element (either on or off with a switch) and wire the other element through the PID. This would be a direct wiring and when you start both elements would be on and when you reach close to your set temperature you just turn the static element off. You would only need one element to maintain the still with the PID. If you wanted to wire the elements in parallel that would also be possible, just run the hot wire from Pin #2 on the SSR to one screw on the element and then from that screw run a wire to the second element - do the same with the white or red second leg (depending on what wire type you are using) to the other screw on the element and then from there to the second element. This will be a parallel hook up. Your amperage requirement will increase so it is good that you have a 30a system; make sure your wire size will handle the load (I would use 10 AWG at a minimum). George
Just reading your comments for this, I will do what you have mentioned. The building we are operating in in New Zealand wont have 30 amp as it is a church.. This answers my question I was going to ask. I will use a 4500 at 240v and be max at 18.75 amps with the PID. Then hook up another one separate off another 20 amp socket for initial heating as suggested. Your video's are valued greatly. Kind regards Matt
1 2200w element wired for 120w equals 2200w of heating power. Then 2 elements (240w elements) wired for 120w in your example equals 2250w. I might be looking at it wierd but to me it does not seem worth the 2 elements for the extra 50w in heating power.
Correct. But there are occasions when someone is restricted to 120 volt circuit and based on the size of the kettle needs two elements for the heat up phase. This is just an option and an attempt to demonstrate that a clear understanding of how these interact together allows someone to mix/combine several different options. At this point it is not about cost but all about need and efficiency. Thanks for the comment George
LOL when you were describing plugging in the toaster the coffee pot etc I had a flash back to an episode of Green Acres. th-cam.com/video/WGPMadwqPKQ/w-d-xo.html Anyhow you should do a quick vid explaining watts to BTU (or the joule if you want to go that route) and how long you can expect to raise a 5 gal kettle of wash to 170F Brewing and distilling comes down to just easy math, something we never thought we would use back in grade school :)
It is possible to wire a 240v element to 120 but not possible to wire a 120 to 240. This is for the benefit of those who need to know. Also, if you only need 1375 watts and only have access to 240 V elements you could use a 5500 watt element wired as 120 V and that would produce 1375 watts. As you can see this is helpful information. George
Hello George Peter you are the smartest man I've met in a long time
I just love the science behind this and also love sharing it.
Thanks
George
Been watching your videos George. Great info on the PID controllers. I ordered components and built one with your help. It works great. I am modifying it to work in my Pit Boss smoker. I found a digital volt/amp meter with a inductive amp pick up. Works great. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Most excellent. Keep it up
George
You make it so clear and easy to follow thanks George
wow, great vid, brought back many things I had forgotten over time.
If you don't need to know resistance, just do "watts / volts = amps". So for a 2000W heater on 240V, you would do "2000 / 240 = 8.33". With two of those heaters, the load is then 16.66. but for continuous loads like heating, which can remain on for more than 3h at a time, you have to protect the wire by calculating it at 125% of the load. So 16.66 * 1.25 = 20.825 amps. Since you're going past 20, you should then be using 10awg wire with a 30 amp breaker to be wired properly and up to code.
Very helpful! Thanks!!!
These calculations are pretty helpful George. Except that it helps you figure out the circuit that you need to support the element that you select. What would be *really* helpful is to figure out the element(s) needed first and then the circuit required to support it. Figure the element out by the speed at which it will heat the volume. Say a five-gallon charge... How many watts would it take (on average) to heat that from room temperature to...say...150F in 30 minutes?
Once I knew that, I could then decide on the element necessary for the still. And also, maybe once I know that, I won't have to wire up a 240v circuit and instead use an existing 20A 120 dedicated circuit.. Thanks!
National Electrical Code says you can only have 80% on a continuous load. 80% of a 20amp breaker is 16. You’d probably get away with the 18.? Amps but it will heat up.
Ole George math! Keep it up
I'd like to see you address issues of using a dryer circuit. Most of us have that and many have it in a garage where they may distill or mash. These 30 amp circuits are 3 or 4 prong and the 4 prong ones have a neutral lead which lends itself to feeding 2 120 volt branch circuits or a single 240 volt one. This should be ideal for dual element stills. It seems that the starting point in heat design is size of the boiler, number of elements and then the electrical feed available. The 3 prong outlets are more common and mostly suitable for 240 volt circuits. 7,200 watts should be adequate for anything at home.
I have addressed this in several videos.
Awesome help videos George! So by combining different elements to get to the right combination of wattage that is most efficient, are these elements wired in series or parallel?
Parallel.
In a series circuit provides only one lath for electricity to travel so the same current flows through each element but the voltage is divided by each element.
In a parallel circuit there is more than one path so the voltage across each element is the same and the total current is equal.
Hope this helps
George
Great video as usual George, but IMHO you didn't discuss the more common scenario of running two elements off of one receptacle. For example, modern house wiring uses two separate circuits per receptacle, one for the top plug and one for the bottom. To wire this to your PID controller you would need to run two power cords to the controller. My question is do you need two PIDs or can you use one to trigger both circuits and elements? Thanks.
Be cautious, normal house wiring does not have two circuits per outlet. One single outlet is attached to one end of the receptacle and then wire run from that receptacle goes to the next one. I believe that code restricts 10 receptacles per circuit.
@@BarleyandHopsBrewing Hi George, thanks for responding so quickly. My house and garage are wired so that each plug on a receptacle is on a separate circuit. You know the brass connector on the side of the receptacle is broken. I think you showed this on one of your videos. Breaking the connector separates the top plug from the bottom one, at least that is what I thought it was for. If you had one heater on one circuit and another on a different circuit you would have to run two power cords to the PID, but would you need another PID or could you run them both off of just one? Thanks
@@snappingbear Okay, this is more clear now. If you want to use 2 circuits one PID can do this but you would need 2 SSRs to trip independently. The PID can handle this. You also need to run a power line in from both circuits. Should be easy enough.
You could possibly get by with 1 SSR but my fear is that if your 2 circuits are out of phase and you had them both connected to one SSR you could potentially get 240V instead of 120.
Te be safe use 2 SSRs. It's the best route and more direct, easy to find faults etc.
Thanks George. I saw a video last night that gave me an idea how to do it a different way then the one I mentioned. I could wire two power cords from two out-of-phase circuits into a 240V plug and then feed a cord from that plug to the PID monitor and wire it following your instructions on wiring 240V PIDs. That way I would only need one SSR and one heating element of 240V instead of two 120V elements to get the same wattage. In this scenario it would give me 240V and 20A for 4400 watts of heatng power.
This is the video I was talking about, what do you think about doing this?
th-cam.com/video/LZbIJZe_YDs/w-d-xo.html
George where are you at sir?
Thanks George, I like to keep with the E/I/R rather than confusing WARV. Otherwise keep on showing us different options for heating with electricity.
You obviously have an electrical background. I too like EIR but I figured the majority who doesn't have that background would find it a little easier to follow along and make sense of it.
Thanks
George
Hello George, I love your videos on PID controllers. I'm considering upgrading to an 16 gal boiler. I was really leaning toward using 240v / 30a with 2 - 3500w elements. not sure if that would make sense or how to wire it as a parallel circuit. Your thoughts?
Thank-you - The Toledo Tuna
Aaron, this is a good idea. If it were me I would wire one of the elements as a static element (either on or off with a switch) and wire the other element through the PID. This would be a direct wiring and when you start both elements would be on and when you reach close to your set temperature you just turn the static element off. You would only need one element to maintain the still with the PID.
If you wanted to wire the elements in parallel that would also be possible, just run the hot wire from Pin #2 on the SSR to one screw on the element and then from that screw run a wire to the second element - do the same with the white or red second leg (depending on what wire type you are using) to the other screw on the element and then from there to the second element.
This will be a parallel hook up. Your amperage requirement will increase so it is good that you have a 30a system; make sure your wire size will handle the load (I would use 10 AWG at a minimum).
George
Just reading your comments for this, I will do what you have mentioned. The building we are operating in in New Zealand wont have 30 amp as it is a church.. This answers my question I was going to ask. I will use a 4500 at 240v and be max at 18.75 amps with the PID. Then hook up another one separate off another 20 amp socket for initial heating as suggested. Your video's are valued greatly. Kind regards Matt
1 2200w element wired for 120w equals 2200w of heating power. Then 2 elements (240w elements) wired for 120w in your example equals 2250w. I might be looking at it wierd but to me it does not seem worth the 2 elements for the extra 50w in heating power.
Correct. But there are occasions when someone is restricted to 120 volt circuit and based on the size of the kettle needs two elements for the heat up phase. This is just an option and an attempt to demonstrate that a clear understanding of how these interact together allows someone to mix/combine several different options.
At this point it is not about cost but all about need and efficiency.
Thanks for the comment
George
Quick comment to help the algorithm
LOL when you were describing plugging in the toaster the coffee pot etc I had a flash back to an episode of Green Acres. th-cam.com/video/WGPMadwqPKQ/w-d-xo.html
Anyhow you should do a quick vid explaining watts to BTU (or the joule if you want to go that route) and how long you can expect to raise a 5 gal kettle of wash to 170F
Brewing and distilling comes down to just easy math, something we never thought we would use back in grade school :)
Absolutely.
Thanks
George
If you have a 240v heater why wire it to 120
He lost me
It is possible to wire a 240v element to 120 but not possible to wire a 120 to 240. This is for the benefit of those who need to know. Also, if you only need 1375 watts and only have access to 240 V elements you could use a 5500 watt element wired as 120 V and that would produce 1375 watts.
As you can see this is helpful information.
George