10.5" Australian Automatic Arms SAC at 300m with Holosun 503
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.ค. 2021
- In which Mike takes his Australian Automatic Arms SAC in .223 Rem / 5.56x45mm out to 300m with a Holosun 503 atop it to zero it and to see what it can do.
Here at BotR we show things as we find them, warts and all, so you're seeing this more or less as Mike did, with all its frustration...
The AAA SAC is kinda the last version of the Leader T2 Mk. 5 (aside from the Bushmaster M17S bullpup and the new K&M Aerospace version which is closer to the Leader), and is a real sweetie. But something's not quite right in that particular Holosun or the rail.
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Back in 1995 a mate of mine in the Battalion brought a SAC... within 3 months most the M16 mags the company Q-store had for our F89 Minimis had conveniently got 'lost out bush'
Shame he would've had to hand it in the next year.
Glad someone gets to use our guns..... even more glad it didn't get cut up like so many did. Have fun with it bloke we Aussies live vicariously through your videos
I’ve heard of a couple still floating around under a Cat H here, I’m yet to see one though. Most I’ve seen are dealers selling Cat D versions of them to each other.
@@CrazyDog651 spot on. Basically impossible to get one for us joe blows
@@stevenlee798 Actually that reminds me. I know of a guy who owns one of the only straight pull versions of this rifle. It’s pretty slick.
@@CrazyDog651 there is only one straight pull in existence
I do honestly love this channel. It feels like true enthusiasm for firearms rather than flashy editing and political or cultural pop-firearms.
Bloke and Chap are the Fred Dibnahs of firearms
Thanks muchly! We are not worthy of the comparison with The Fred though! :D
What's the saying? "A bad day at the range is better than a good day in the office."
We say it but do we really feel it 😆
@@DirtyDiksgunoroma depends what you do in the office
@@DirtyDiksgunoroma I enjoy my work and that saying holds true for me, with the exception of the one time I came home with a broken and irreparable antique revolver due to some poor reloading advice. No one was hurt and I learned a valuble lesson. Still, it was very sad day.
A kangaroo sight, jumps from place to place?😊
Before the sky fell (or was pushed) in, here in Oz, I did a LOT of work on Leader and AAA products.
The "leader" was not a "mature" design at the time of its release, but it worked "OK".
The AAA version was an improvement in many ways, but still not "mature".
Several problems were design flaws (easily corrected), others were clear signs that the designer, and his "successors' had limited small-arms experience and little or no production engineering background.
The AAA barrels were quite good, with a fast twist to stabilize longer bullets like the SS109 / M855 / F1.
Most folk tended to shoot the incredibly cheap Norinco M-193 ball knockoff, which was infamous for its substantial muzzle flash and erratic ejection in these rifles.
Thus arose a number of theories about the problems of broken extractors and random ejection. Some of these seemed to centre on the concept of "under-gassing". That the small synthetic rubber buffers were also being chewed up cast some doubt on that theory.
First, I doctored a bunch of that Norinco ball, producing a range of leads under and over "standard", which, BTW is quite consistent.Thus, it became apparent that, at least in sub-tropical South East Queensland, there was actually a problem with OVER-gassing; hence the mangled buffers, distorted case rims and "bent" extractors, etc.. Shooters in near-Antarctic Tasmania did not seem to experience these issues; a big HINT.
The solution was to remove the gas-block and bore out the vertical "vent" hole to 1/4". Then machine up a series of "sleeves", with a range of decreasing bore diameters and head for the range with a toolbox and a range of various ball and sporting ammo..
An "optimum" sleeve was arrived at and worked fine with M-193, SS109, 60gn Hornady HPs, etc.
On to the next "issue", bolt-face damage.
This was being reported by several owners and eventually included the detail about cratered primers and even ones with the "crater" being entirely blown out.
Once more, a design / QC "oversight"..
The tip of the striker, whilst LARGER in diameter than the classic AR-15 striker, BUTwas undersized for the size of the hole in the bolt-head. Thus, the primer cups were not fully supported and the thin cup material "went with the flow".
Anyone who has reloaded for late-war Arisakas may have noticed this phenomenon.
The problem is that even small "gas leaks" from the primer WILL damage the striker and the bolt face; the escaping gas acts like tiny plasma cutters, tearing chinks off the striker tip, (and the striker hole in the bolt-face) and this roughness then accelerates the rate of future primer ruptures. Pretty soon, you have a wrecked striker and a damaged bolt-head.
Solution?
Carefully TIG weld the striker hole completely closed. Modify the original striker to have the same form and dimensions as an AR-15 striker,. This all gets a bit fiddly in the final fitting, and it was often easier to machine up a new bushing that was fitted into a suitably bored-out bolt-face,.
However achieved, once the striker protrusion and mating to the bolt-face were correct, all signs of ruptured primers went away.
None of this is "rocket surgery" but, you have to be keen and have a durable sense of humour.
Some friendly advice for adjusting the sights, let's say you want to go two clicks to the left: Go three clicks to the left and then come back one click to the right, it relieves the tension on the reticle mechanism and avoids to "jump". 😉
Nothing worse for the blood pressure than a wandering zero..... deep breaths, deep breaths.
I'll go with you on that one too. Especially if you're also doing load development. I had a cast 30 out 6 load that was doing 1.75 MOA. And the next trip I couldn't even stay on paper. I can't find anything specifically that changed. It's driving me crazier.
Not bored at all, videos like this is why I watch your channel.
Yes! So glad to see this again, that new muzzle looks wicked
It can be surprising how well 55 grain 5.56 can shoot at a distance from a short barrel. Many years ago a buddy had a 10.5" AR-15, we were shooting a service rifle course of fire that ended up at 500 yards. He had to do a lot of sight adjustment when we got back to 500 but he ended up with about an 8" ten shot group when all was said and done.
Thanks for sharing another entertaining video. Great to see that another Australian semi escaped the chopping block!
Owned one back in back in the day. I found to improved accuracy, make up a wedge from hard rubber and insert it between the hinge pin and the front of the magazine well. As you close the upper it will stiffen up the barrelled action considerably, resulting in more consistent shots. Lovely little gun, lost to the crusher eventually. :(
Mike that was excellent accuracy out of a 10.5" barrel. Great Video, sorry the spring broke.
Great to see one of those again, made in a factory about an hour from me in Tasmania
If it is a gun from down under, my be there is the reasons for the shoots going down low?😊
Yet another great video. Yet another conversation to appease a robot
Envious of the range set-up!
Here's hoping that Australia gets them back someday.
and people in hell hope for ice water
but here ya go🤞
@@p00lboy and yet political pendulum swing over time. Believe it or not if you have tracked American gun laws over history we are currently at the free est period. There are more places where you can carry with fewer restrictions than ever.
Information and exposure changes political opinion which eventually changes laws. Also there is a certain effect of practical impossibility. It might take a while but the reality is anybody can make a weapon at any time with very little effort. With a little more effort they can make a good weapon. It will literally be impossible to keep weapons out of bad people's hands in the very near future or the present depending on how you look at it. The rest of the world is going to be experiencing this reality you have been increasing degree until they say why can't we have one too. Things like TH-cam have helped to normalize interesting guns over the last 15 years and radically increase the demand for fully modern things. People start to ask why shouldn't I have fill in the blank? And they are not satisfied with a response of " I have a vaguely uneasy feeling about that". Guys who grew up on video games and then get to experience guns a little say what's wrong about a medium sized gun again Tell me why there should be any kind of restriction on an SBR? And then their grandpa who was a fudd tries it out and says "hey that's kind of nice". Pretty soon his reloader Grandpa is working up subsonic loads for his Thompson center encore with a silencer on it... We are at the acceleration edge of this exposure curve in America. But the rest of the world is exposed to America. The same political pressures that were pushed around the world to shut down gun rights can be reversed in a wave too.
@@GunFunZS 🤨fewer restrictions now?
1933 before tax stamps and gun laws wants to have a talk with you
@@p00lboy Shall issue in most states with no ability for cities to randomly tell you you can't possess a gun.
@@GunFunZS since you bring up states hawaii massachusetts california new york an illinois got a few words too
better shooting than I thought for 10.5" barrel
i bought an old colt python and this is my youtube rabbit hole via gunjesus ian and the mr73😁
subscribed👍
That is a pretty sweet looking rifle.
Holosun optics are pretty good but their mounts are the worst thing about them. I suggest using a 3rd party low mount instead of the one in the box.
I think he said they modified the mount. I wonder if they left a convex surface on one of the contact points.
Too bad you didn't use this gun at the Finish Winter Brutality match. You usually set yourself up with equipment that puts you behind the curve anyway so you would have been fine. Lol Thanks for the look. Doesn't Frankenrifle have Australian roots too.
When I was in the Australian army the rumour was that the leader assault rifle was a better gun than the Styer so the Australian defence force bought the rights for the leader and shut the factory down. Because they had spent so much money on Styer , I could be wrong you know how rumours are in the Army . My friend had a Leader assault rifle and it was a great rifle to shoot and fun to shoot with the buttstock off
Lol. No. That's totally wrong...
Yeah thats a pretty terrible rumour.... the AAC's are effectively a prototype that were never finnished..... far from a mature millitary design.
The Leaders are even more unrefined than the AAC's, as you'll see in future videos. But none of them are a plausible military design for a first-world army, particularly a Commonwealth one: having to remove Allen key bolts to take the handguards off to access the gas system? Or treating the gas system as a non-user-serviceable component (despite it being exposed to mud, dust and general kak?) Sure it could have been developed further, but the handguard needs to be really rigidly attached to the rifle cos it supports the cocking handle.
Oh, and the pins on the Leader are held in with E-type circlips... :eyeroll:
@@BlokeontheRange AAA was shut down and bought out by the Government but not for the reason above.
Did you find a neoprene buffer for it, in the end? Glad you’re using your SAC, even though the disconnector stopped working. Have you done a video segment exclusively on the SAC background. I would be curious to know how one ended up in Switzerland, of all places! Keep up the good work. M from Down Under.
Plan still is that Chappie will make a replacement (it's a soft PU rather than neoprene material) but it runs fine without one. There's a fair number of the shorties here - I'm aware of 4 including mine, and I haven't got around to making a vid on its background (got to start with the Leader first!).
As much as I enjoy a red dot, I'd think the Acss reticule would be well suited for this with the ranging and all. Might present an issue with the bdc for a shorty, however. Cool gun though, maybe the brn 180 offering isn't such a bad idea.
It sounds like an L85. It makes that same steel box section bang/clunk and the trigger reset sounds the same. Not at all like the "poing" of the M16/SP1.
Reminds me of a SIG 550 series.
Neat firearm. Some thread locker should sort that optic.
SG 552/553 next? I remember that in one of the first articles about it in SWM in 1999, 300m accuracy was not too shabby...
wondering if its also the "pressed" barrel, vs a modern standard barrel, that is causing the wandering zero
Barrel heat causing some vertical stringing/flyers? Just a guess, not sure how hot the barrel is actually getting,
I saw the 10.5 and thought it was the caliber at first, I about shit.
They also did a small number of carbines in 9mm. They fed from UZI mags. They were very rare though and I believe there may only be a handful left. I saw one in a B grade aussie movie a few months back so I assume one of the couple of film armorers has it.
I believe that the ones to which you're referring were just bodged together movie props and weren't actual products.
@@BlokeontheRange No they definitely made a handful of firing weapons. This article says 5 and 1 is left in select fire configuration. Probably the one that was saved by the movie armorer here.
www.armsregister.com/articles/articles_documents/42_june_2014.pdf
Lots of opportunities for hindsight in that one... One question, though, I was surprised you set about "creeping up" on the correct sight setting rather than taking the "bracketing" approach - do you see disadvantages in the latter? (BTW, I loved the irony of your statement that everything is done on camera on BOTR just before going off camera to shoot another 50 rounds - of course we did get to see where they went in the end.)
There's no reason to bracket, which also makes life difficult if there's backlash in the adjustments. In principle, if the adjustments are known and consistent, you should be able just to dial the adjustment straight in, which wasn't the case here...
@@BlokeontheRange If I knew what my click values were and trusted my optic I wouldn't bracket, but in your case - where both these were uncertain and shooting immediately threw them further into doubt - I'd have tried a few major adjustments , i.e. bracketing, rather than multiple minor one,s to scale up what had become an experiment. As soon as this was obviously not working I'd have been looking for loose things, starting with the optic mount. That's what I mean by hindsight.
Not boring at all.
It seems as though the point of impact of the 69gr group shifted at 12:30 when you adjusted your glasses. I'm not sure what to make of that.
Coincidence...
I was really confused for a sec when he said SRA cause I thought Socialist Rifle Association. Yes I know I need to climb out of my bubble from time to time 😅
NSW State Rail Authority, for me.
Is it possible the sight's adjustment is a bit gunged up? The adjustment puts torque onto things, and only shooting lets it actually shift into position? Just a thought that may have no relation to reality.
what eye relief do you want?
...Yes
That is one of the things I really like about red dots. No worrying about that!
Whilst in the field, shooting using the mag as a prop is a good option, shooting on a range for a tight group it ‘can’ have too much play for repeatable results. Also, you’re breaking position after every shot to look at the placement, and every time you make an adjustment.
You can’t make a group from 2 rounds because you won’t know if one of them is the flyer.
Re. "breaking position". I grew up shooting Target Rifle. We put the rifle down between shots due to fatigue if you don't. Also, we only had 2 sighters, and if you pull one you know it's the flyer ;) If you think that looking at the screen is "breaking position", how do you think we manage with bolt action rifles?
What would be the best way to start shooting sports around Zurich or Bern? I moved here 1 year ago and can't speak german yet. I have hunted before and should have easy time getting all the permits, but finding a range that would work also in english is hard on the internet.
Find a local club or private Schiesskeller and go introduce yourself. If you don't have a permit active in your home country, getting an acquisition permit is likely to be tricky (not necessarily impossible) until you have permanent residency (C-permit).
Thanks mate! Luckily I still have my shotgun back in Finland.
They should accept that. Bern certainly will.
Great Vid. I owned the SAR, until John Howard solved all crime in Australia by banning semi autos. I customised the SAR, custom flash suppressor, 9 inchs long ( thanks Air Force 😁) 2-7 Tasco W/C (Japan), cheek piece from a Torana bump rubber and Harris bipod..shot amazing groups out to 200m. Thanks for the memories. 😪
Bill Blair, Canada's public safety minister, would be heartened to know sensible gun control really does eliminate crime. ;)
Possibly heating issues causing the deviation later I have to the groups?
Possible, but thus far it's been quite well-behaved on that front.
@@BlokeontheRange Rather than barrel heating I was thinking whether it was affecting the stamped sheet on which the red dot is mounted.
Was it windy at the range? 223 55 gr with a medium lateral wind you can have shifts up to 13.4 inches (10" wind drift +1 moa).
Nope. No wind that day.
Where can I get my hands on that muzzle device?!
Searched high and low online for the Vorpal Arms Solo and it appears that the only info is an old TFB article and a defunct website...
Contact Neil at The Wirksworth Gunroom, which you should be able to find via Google or Faceboon :)
@@BlokeontheRange
Thanks bröther!
@@BlokeontheRange Got two squared away and coming to the US! Thanks again.
I had a AAA . I’m Australian and sadly let it go .
Things changed dramatically after Port Arthur .
Same here. ;*(
Some ppl still have em 🙃
@@tristanhodgden4286 ❤️✊
If you dont mind me asking, what is the point of the irons? Backup incase the optic fails?
Yes
How much is the price difference in Switzerland between the holosun and a high quality optic like say an aim point?
Also would this be an appropriate place to use locktight to hold your mount screw?
The difference is quite massive, and I really like the holosun reticle. Loctite on the mount screw is definitely an option, but I'm wondering if the rail isn't so soft it's deforming under the clamping force.
@@BlokeontheRange I think it’s rail deformation tbh.
@@BlokeontheRange solution to that might just be a mount with longer "jaws" to spread out the gripping force a bit? Have you got a mate with a milling machine?
@@chemistrykrang8065 or perhaps put a slug of metal in between the sheet metal rails to reinforce them. That's something you could carve out in 10 minutes with a file from aluminum.
Why not one of the magnified prisms? 2.5 or 3x, or are those hard to get?
Expensive... Plus needs to be a low mount (and not a flat-top mount) on something like this otherwise your head position is screwed.
@@BlokeontheRange are they? Here in the states I see that red dot for like $215.
A Primary Arms 3x prism for $290, Burris 3x for $299. Gen 1 Vortex 3x is $320, the Gen 2 is $400.
I can lend you a decent scope Mike
It is cute
I still own some genuine parts for the rifle, including scope mounts.
Got any trigger group components? That one broke its disconnector...
@@BlokeontheRange unfortunately I don't have that part. I do have the two piece firing pin set up.
I don’t think the sight is moving, at 300m seems reasonable for 2MOA dot and probably a 2/3 moa gun? Idk just my thoughts
How about a flip out 3x magnifier 😁 I know it would mean more fiddly mount modification and losing the rear sight you added, but with a steel reciever you could always commit heresy and cut off the factory rear sight wings and find a complimentary style steel replacement to have tig welded on, I'll vouch for slightly mutilating a rare modern rifle if done tastefully 😉
It should be low by just a few inches. I believe 25y/300y, instead of 25y/400y, is a supposed to be the standard zero.
It's not got the same height over bore as an AR15, nor is it running full muzzle velocity. So the "standard" zeros, which are for AR15's, don't apply.
@@BlokeontheRange ah. I see. And your sight is super low.
I went to a ballistics calculator. Assuming (1) it’s a 1in height over bore instead of 2.6in and (2) ball-parking the velocity out of the 10.5in barrel at 2,500fps, you should be 21.41in under your 50yd zero at 300yds.
You’re gonna want a closer initial zero for the competition. A 50yd zero puts your line of sight at (practically) the maximum ordinate point, making impacts at every other range below your line of sight. A 10yd zero would get you on at 300yds nicely, but with huge max deviation of about 8 inches at 160 yards.
An approx 15yd/200yd zero might be nice. The maximum ordinate point is only about 3in high at 100yds-125yds, and, while the 300yrd impact is about 10in low, it’s sub 4moa. I looks like everything 0-300yds is sub 4MOA, which is half of your seeing with your 50 yard zero.
Lol. Sorry for the rambling. Check out the online ballistics calculators. They’re cool.
It's higher than an inch, but lower than 2.6". Anyway, I'm not taking this one - I'm taking the M17S, which has a HUGE height over bore, and is on at 50m (within an inch-ish) and 300m, so will shoot high in between.
Is the rear sight part of the optics rail? would popping the (presumably) rivets and installing a modern picatinny section be considered sacrilege?
Sacrilege! :D
As I showed, the original rear sight was removed by a previous owner, and I've put an LPA one on the rail. If it wasn't sacrilege, putting a strip of decent picatinny on there would be a distinct possibility.
Ozzie!!! Oi! Oi! 😺
Bang stick no go boom :(
Can you do a video on Ak's?
I'm going to do one on my AK (Chinese type 56(S)) and another vid on modernising it with half the Magpul catalogue! :D
@@BlokeontheRange Sweet.
@@BlokeontheRange The extended Magpul Zhukov hand guard is ridiculously heavy due to the heat shielding, would recommend the shorter Magpul Moe or a more expensive aluminium one with lots of speed holes like the RS Regulate GKR-10 or the new Zenitco Sport-1.
'Straya?
Fuckin aye, 'stralia!
55 grain FMJ out of a 10” barrel at 300M what are the chances you’re chasing wind deflection and not having an optics issue?
Can't have wind deflection on a windless day ;)
@@BlokeontheRange I'm guessing that the turrets, especially the horizontal one, have some responsiveness issues based on the way the point of impact stayed roughly the same through a couple of adjustments and then suddenly shifted drastically. It looked like your inputs may have stacked until they were all released at once.
Indeed, I suspect there's some backlash in them and some play.
Michael Carnes a box test of adjustments at a shorter range, preferably indoors, will isolate the most variables. Additionally changing to the Holosun optic he knows works and rezeroing to see if the issues replicate will tell the tale.
55 grain is notoriously wind sensitive at longer ranges.
Not when there's no wind it's not ;)
@@BlokeontheRange True but out of that short of a barrel it wouldn't take much of a breeze to move the little pill.
Oi oi oi oi oi
Many years ago, those rifles were imported into the US of A, very briefly. They had a very bad reputation. VERY BAD! Geoff Who remembers the old Gun Tests Magazine.
There were the original Leader Arms and then the AAA ones. I can't remember which one but one had issues with the upper separating that could be rectified with a small steel insert.
Resting on the mag don't help.
Huh? Monopodding on the mag is fine, and is better than shooting unsupported...
@@BlokeontheRange The vibration could upset things, try a sand bag rest on the forend.
I'm not planning on carrying a sandbag with me through stages, sooooo I think I'll stick to monopodding thanks :)
Nono "stuff and nonsense" is by split enz they are New Zealanders not Australian 😉
Missing bulls eye. Bad ammo ? lol Could never Be the shooter. ,I have had 2 Holosun's, Not a great scope, Ok for the price, Just don't expect to much from it. I remember seeing the Leader rifles here in Texas, usa back in the 80s. Looked ok Just couldn't compete with the home team, Colt. Enjoyed the video.
Thank god Cupid stunt is gone and we are back to the shooting.!🔫
Only 2 likes and 2 comments.
Unsupportive viewers should self flagellate and think about what they have done.
It's not public yet!!! :D
Must chant “Pie Iesu Domine, dona eis requim” then smack forehead with a siged copy of Ian McCollum’s Chassepot to FAMAS. Repeat as necessary.
@@BlokeontheRange All the more reason to think about what they've done.