Well of course not everyone is going to hold the same opinions and DATA was pretty much the only one of his kind. It's pretty hard to be prejudice against something you don't know exists.
I assume the origin of these plastic people was independent of Data (or rather, while being derivative of Datas tech, still ended up substantially short of a sentient being, and might have been marketed as something that has nothing to do with Data), thus the entire question of Datas sentience is a moot point in regards to using these new androids as slaves for menial work.
@@samuelbarber4154 IIRC it was starfleet that was convinced that they have rights. I see no reason why that would change in the future, using the Data case as an example of it. Using any recognizeable sentient being for slave labor like they do in Picard is so antithesis to where the federation is supposed to be, which is why it doesn't make sense without qualifications that this would be such a systematic problem. All I really need personally is some kind of replicant esque crisis where some androids killed a bunch of humans to believe that a portion would hold a prejudice, but even then the problem should not be persistent. The Data trial should be considered an example for rest of star fleet and federation regarding androids, and if anything it would probably progress from there. Nevertheless, that humans have a systematic android bias isn't really what people want out of Trek, we want humans to be above such things _usually,_ and maybe have either rogue admirals or alien races inhibit such traits. Listening to interviews of Trekkies in the 80s about TNG, they repeatedly bring up the strength of Trek as being a bright future to look forward to, fine if u want dark sci-fi or fantasy, but Trek isn't that. Make another show if you want that.
The court ruling from TNG should've set a precedence for synthetics like Data, to be regarded as a living being. Evidently they forgot, or some unknown (Or not made up yet) ruling came out afterwards that reversed that precedence.
60s to 90s trek: “what type of humans would actually exist in the future?” Modern trek: “lets just write today people with future stuff around them or something”
Humans don't change, though. Only the surroundings do. Sure, social norms can change, and change back, but overall humanity's basic behavior is relatively the same.
The ruling was that Data specifically was not property of star fleet. The ruling didn't address if androids should be considered people. The advocate even said she wasn't qualified to make that decision. The video left out the final judgment.
@@sernoddicusthegallant6986 In "The Offspring" Picard argues that since Data is sentient life form with defined rights he can't be ordered to turn over Lai who is essentially his child. It's pretty apparent they didn't forget about it.
Streamed Consciousnes Because the show-makers have agendas to push and feel like they must use this show as a vehicle to push it (not surprising, given the fates of many other modern shows)
Well task purpose robots are used in the Federation. These scenes only focus on general purpose androids that are inevitably more complicated to be able to perform large variety of tasks. And it's that complexity that allows them to develop sapience. In season 1, there was an episode with a small droid called the robocomp which was similar to data in its complexity and thusly developed sentience and sapience rather quickly.
Humanoid workers are much better in generalities and uncertainties than a fixed, task-based robot. A humanoid can: reconfigure itself into a variety of different spaces depending on the environment; and manipulate a variety of different things, including things it has never seen before. The humanoid has been created over the course of billions of years of evolution and proven to be good at everything. In Star Trek, that has the additional weight of being the case on virtually every planet they find that has intelligent life. It's CPUs vs ASICs.
TNG gave us "The Measure of a Man". An episode so iconic and influential, that they discuss it in law school. Picard gave us nonsense cliche sci-fi trash.
the writing was so good back then. The way the made that analogy to slavery was perfect. It didn't talk down on you, it was so eloquent. How did we get from the great writing we see in The Measure of a Man to "now here is some brown sticky shit"
because this is what studios truly believe audiences want to see and can understand. When general audiences stop watching the crap studios keep pushing out, then they'll start making better content. Unfortunately, right now, people keeping tuning into this and giving them money...
because people expect to get everything for doing nothing. Writing is lazy today, derivative, and polarizing of audiences. The people responsible for the franchise want to produce content and merchandise, regardless of quality.
@@karimblix4378 The last 2 series are garbage. Picard sux although it was better than than that other waste of a name series. I was able to watch Picard to episode 4, double what I could for Discovery lol
@Gaytony lol star trek always had social commentary about how people in the 20th and 21st century were underdeveloped, mentioning their use of vulgar language multiple times. There's literally clips on this channel comparing the two series and how they handled cursing and vulgarity.
I always found it interesting that they gave immediate status to everything they encountered including something like the crystalline entity but Data...he had to prove himself in court...
@@Mr_Snek if you take the any religion for granted we were created as well. The argument a Robot cannot be sentient is the most boring and dumbest topic in history ad fiction.
Ugly bags of mostly water Starfleet response: Ah! Intelligent microbial life! I think therefore I am Starfleet response: Nonsense Data, off to court you go.
As great as Data's trial was. It seems like the question about his rights should have been answered the moment he signed up for Starfleet. Data joined Starfleet on his own, they didn't purchase him or acquire him as chattel from a third party. Does Starfleet have a document saying they own him? If not, then he is not their property.
I presumed it was a case of, Starfleet took the attitude of "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc, it's probably a duck" In the TNG era they were always meeting new life and new civilizations so that kind of attitude would work well enough. It wasn't until the scientist brought it up that Starfleet realized no one had actually asked what exactly was Data and what where his rights officially. (I'm reminded of a relatively recent (almost 20 years ago ahem) court case where the Judge asked what an Ipod was. Not because he had never of one but because some part of the case hinged on defining *exactly* what an Ipod was.)
Yep, & it's not as if the question about Android rights probably hadn't come up, considering the number of times they were encountered in Classic Trek alone.
I think, and excuse to replying to a 1 year old comment haha... I think it's more so a case of "the writers realised Data was a gold mine with regards to exploring these kinds of issues, so they just sort of *waived those concerns* when designing these storylines". And to be honest, I think that was the right call, because it gave us some of the best trek episodes ever
Data gave his life to save his captain. To quote another captain, "Of all the souls I've encountered, his was the most human." I'm glad data found what he was looking for,
There was never an episode with Spock and Data doing things together because it would have been difficult to see one character being played by two persons. Now people think the writing of ST:Picard was bad, like, c'mon. 🙄
@@sirgentlebread7302 uuuuuuhm they have a giant factory constantly making them specifically for the purpose of invading planets like Naboo and coruscant
TNG's message: "Starfleet was being tempted by the idea to try and replicate Data, until Picard made the case that the replicants would be alive and would essentially be slaves if Starfleet went ahead." Star Trek - Picard's message: "hurr durr, Starfleet was never in the wrong for creating "synthetics" and replicating them..." Kurtzmann Trek is Trash Trek.
Don't worry, TNG and what came before will always be the true Star Trek and that idea will never be gone. For the new content maybe but I have no doubt that someone who understands Gene's vision will take the helm on some new Star Trek series.
@@BarbadosBeerFestival what bothers me most about that show is they ram tolerance for the lgbtq community down our throats, but Star Trek for me made a point without making a point it happened naturally like Lieutenant O'Hara in the original series she was a character just like everybody else, people that didn't necessarily like black people would hopefully watch the show and realize hey black people are like the rest of us. And there was another video of the comparison between the next generation and discovery in reference to a character in thenext generation named Barkley that didn't get along with a lot of people but captain Picard pushed for him to be accepted and in discovery the same kind of thing happened and the captain of that ship basically wouldn't even hear the person out and kick him off the ship stuff just like that.
I don't think it's that they didn't watch it. It's that they're terrible at their job. I saw someone else comment elsewhere on TH-cam that stuck with me. Basically, they said that "Star Trek teaches you, but it wouldn't insult you". They said it more eloquently, but what they meant was that Star Trek did have a certain political outlook, and it does tend to suggest that there is a 'right' way - but it doesn't do that by showing that the other side is evil. Maddox is not shown as a mustache twirling bastard. He is eager, perhaps arrogant, and he doesn't see the potential harm he might cause - but he wants to replicate Data to help the Federation, and the people living in it. He wants to relieve the 'organics' of having to do dangerous tasks. He just can't see that his solution is create a new race, the Data-oids, and put them in danger instead. But even if he is shown as myopic, he's not shown as evil. The modern 'Trek' (fake) Trek, doesn't do that. The people are clearly unpleasant, and the attitudes that Kurtzman and the writing staff dislike - the 'wrong' attitudes - are portrayed as evil. It comes across as cartoonish and stupid - especially when compared to a more nuanced, more intelligent plot, as you got in old (real) Trek.
They fundamentally misunderstood the importance of the decision. Picard in STP saying something about believing the ban on synthetic lifeforms was wrong is them either watching this episode and not knowing what it is actually saying or that they got bored and made the future more like modern humanity than a proper idealized future
@@hansellius - this is 100% the problem with today's series. I think there's something about the internet and the political echo chambers it creates that has dumbed down society's ability to recognize alternative points of view as having any motivations beyond "doesn't agree with me = evil"
she didn't even see a holodeck her entire life until she got to the Enterprise D. the simple people had no entertainment and bad quality replicators which only produce brown sticky food
@NOT YOU I think ST Picard is garbage. I've been watching Trek for years, Imma big fan of the originals and TNG ect and IMO now The Orville is more Trek than Trek. I never got passed the 2nd episode of Discovery or the 4th episode of Picard, I got terribly bored. I didn't mind the JJ movies, they were at least entertaining and still Trek to me.
End of Season 2: "I destroyed everything you loved about your precious Federation, Jean-Luc. I destroyed it to find out just how quickly you petty humans, and particularly you, would revert to your barbaric ways the moment your easy comforts are removed. The trial never ends, Jean-Luc. The trial never ends"
@@demoman87 I don't think it would. It would make up for all the shit that's happened thus far and actually help me grasp what the Federation and Star Trek has become.
1:411:45 Were such pivotal moments and amazing growth for Data. He doesn't *need* to yell. He doesn't react by yelling as a byproduct of emotions. He KNOWS that doing so is how best to interact with that petulant officer, whereas with Worf he talked him down as a friend when Worf overstepped his boundaries.
I think the word Sabotage comes to mind on both counts and it's early enough in the show, maybe the Romulans are being it. Maybe Lore Left behind some traps to extract revenge, maybe Janeway's decision to allow the Doctor to "evolve" back fired and he's been planning a revolution, Maybe the Holographic dimension attacked...they are a number of possibilities. All we know for sure is Maddox's obsession with Data is at least partially to blame for all this. In a world where only Lore and Data existed, and the doctor was trapped halfway around the galaxy, none of this would have happened.
Going to a new alien world with fleshed out and complex social structures to create a racial allegory is hard work. You’d actually have to come up with something interesting and these writers don’t care to do that. Just use a preexisting race and slap a “no others allowed” sign on their local bar. Ruin the old instead of imagine the new is common in the industry.
Not to mention a post scarcity society with stsrvation and poor people🤣 i mean rhey literally have replicators all over . Even the kilingons have them🤣🤣🤣
over the years, i’ve seen people be critical of not just using real life. like when the racial allegory is a alien or a robot that looks “white”, it’s a “safe” way to entertain white people without challenging them too much. surely there’s many articles about it. So the robots are still white in this but they would be happier that it just shows slavery directly also important note, people get really upset when you make the future racist a minority so they really aren’t pleasing anyone actually some people would say they vastly improved in season 2 of picard, because they literally go to the past and experience racism against mexicans at the hands of white ICE agents. that’s just peak fiction if you care about social justice
No law was written. The judgement only applied to Data; He was determined to be a person. The arbitrator declined to make a judgement on all artificial life. Go rewatch the episode.
@@jaanfo3874 you are incorrect. Perhaps you should research or learn stuff. For starters she made a judgement, which in US/UK courts - which star trek followed - is common law. Judgements in a case becomes 'law' - becomes precedent. Second, if you watch the episode where Data has a child Picard clearly says that he (Picard) helped establish the laws/rights for Androids. Not just Data. Thanks for your input though.
Picard: 'makes incredibly creepy looking factory robots' 'expects you to gasp in horror when people point out that they're creepy and are non sentient robots'
You missed one scene btw when Tasha's daughter decides to focus the invasion, she specifically picks Data's section expecting him to not realize/react to their unorthodox plan.
So much awesome stuff here. Data putting on an angry face yelling "DO IT. FIRE." in order to motivate tops it all. Although it should be known that Pulaski did eventually turn around and more or less accept Data's individuality, making her a great dynamic character.
People didn't like Pulaski because she was rude to Data, but what people miss is that she grew, she learned, and she underwent real, fundamental change.
Yeah if there was ever a television series in the Alien universe I'd love to see androids like these as occasional threat-factors but god damn do they feel out of place in Star Trek.
It is my sincerest hope in this world that Shari Redstone is watching your channel and using your body of work as evidence to present to the CBS/Paramount shareholders as to why the contracts with Bad Robot and Secret Hideout must not be renewed and cancelled at the earliest opportunity.
Naw, Picard is good. Data was considered alive, the sythetics are not as advanced as data, they're not considered conscious thus not protected under the trial data was apart of..... Starfleet having evil hierarchy is not a new thing, in every series rouge elements of starfleet have done things that don't follow the beliefs of starfleet. You're never getting episodic star trek ever again, if you don't like it then don't watch it. Iv'e watched every series 10+ times and I have ZERO issues with Picard, I had major issues with Discovery tho.
@@CostaApostolou Amazing how every single time someone who fervently defends Discovery/Picard they also seem to have to add "I've been a fan since TOS"
@@Kit_Kat_Catastrophe It depends on how patient you are with a degree of nonsense I guess some people were patient with Voyager and Enterprise some not, But Picard is a fair bit further down the path of inadequacies. It may also be down to your tolerance of the current era styles of TV, and generally bad writing how much you get annoyed by it or let it pass over you. I would argue that anyone who think Picard is "Good" is likely someone who was at best someone who saw no faults in Voyager or Enterprise at any point. Or just so hungry for new trek they will turn a blind eye to it being bad Trek or not Trek at all. I personally find the heat of my ire towards this show increasing, not decreasing. Where as with Disney Star Wars Movies I really don't just care that much anymore.
Well, I'm certain that Seth McFarlane is watching these channels as a comedian, fan, somebody desperate for material (Family guy ripped off lots of stand up comic material, especially in the early days, which is the reason for the random cut-away scenes).
@@90lancaster Stuff like Voyager and Enterprise had their problems...really especially annoying how the Borg were treated...in both shows! But I mean Kurtzman just spits all over Star Trek, there is nothing in his productions that are remotely Star Trek at all except for races having the same names (He pretty much altered every single race so they're hardly recognizable. We have Racist Humans, Genocidal Vulcans, and Romulans that lost their ridges and spit acid) Sadly some people accept it because of what you said, it's just new Trek...they will consume whatever is given to them. My friend who hates Discovery basically told me he will give Picard passes simply because Picard is in the show. He even gave passes to how Picard was treated like a nobody by not only that Admiral but the receptionist. Just hard to believe for being a hero he doesn't seem to care that Picard is being treated like a nobody.
Bad writers can *only* write Melodrama. Take Star Trek TNG, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Enterprise, Star Trek the original series and line them up for observation. Now, line up Star Trek: 2009, Star Trek: Into Darkness, Star Trek: Beyond, Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard at the end of the previous role. Starting with Star Trek: 2009, the tone has been shifted. That is not in of itself objectively bad, but it is questionable to go from slow, thought provoking and trying to stimulate ones imagination - to go to fast paced, less thought provoking, more action oriented story telling. What I consider, the thing objectively bad about NuTrek, is the over-usage of melodrama. Melodrama has been saturated into nearly all interactions. Kirk was a little bit rebellious in the original series, but 2009 broke the dial on it, along with his "womanizing" tendencies. Old Kirk, he cheated on the Kadashi Maru test because of his experiences of the governor of his home colony deciding to kill at least 4000 people to try and solve a famine, only for relief ships to arrive soon after thus making the action worthless in its stated purpose. Old Kirk would explain to his instructor how he was offended by the Kadashi Maru test due to this. While he can be reckless, "why play when the only winning move is not to?" was something taught to him by the atrocity. Nu-Kirk in comparison is reckless for the sake of recklessness. He's not portrayed as a man offended by the very idea of a unwinnable scenario, he's portrayed as a rebellious teenager who has step-daddy issues. Patiently explaining his problem with the Kadashi Marus test? Nope, just deliberately insulting the instructors by eating an apple during the test and acting nonchalant about it all. Then being offended when he's not allowed to partake in a emergency situation because they consider him a liability. Nu-Kirk is not respectable as an adult and merely a child compared to Old Kirk. This is an issue *systemic* to the entirety of Nu-Trek. I can tell you how the writing of nearly any character in Nu-Trek is dependent upon melodrama to even be considered enjoyable and how the characters in Nu-Trek are either flanderized or flattened as characters in Nu-Trek. It extends not just to the characters, but the problems they are forced into as well. It's like if someone decided they wanted to try and mix Stargate and Star Trek but didn't know how to properly mix it into anything other than a convoluted mess. Star Trek is generally meant to be thought provoking and engages the audience, it is centered around investigation and discovery. Stargate is the story about the underdog against the big bad. Stargate is *designed* to be fairly fast paced, is more pragmatic than idealistic than Star Trek, and is a story specifically of *adventure* not a story specifically of *discovery*. Discovery is a spice put into the mainly adventure Stargate for flavour. Adventure is mainly a spice put into the mainly discovery Star Trek for flavour. Think about how Gordon Ramsay would react to over-saturating food with spice. It simply doesn't work. The tones/flavours conflict with each other due to them not able to be mixed willy-nilly. Not to mention, making up for the these problems by inserting more melodrama, melodrama that becomes unremarkable and bland by virtue of it being over-saturated with such melodrama. Nu-Trek is worse than Old-Trek, because it tries to be both the adventure packed Stargate and the thought provoking Star Trek, but fails at both due to improper mixing and tries to make up for it by cramming more melodrama into the story.
Do you think old Trek would appeal to current and new audiences if they made new shows like it? I don't mean Trek fans. I look at how most people live their lives. I think melodrama sells.
@@O1OO1O1 100% old trek would and does appeal just as much today as it did. (just look at orville) the world hasn't really changed. melodrama doesn't "sell" its simply cheaper to make, its like saying mcdonald's is better food then some artisan burger place because they make more money. no its just cheep trash that costs nothing to make but has no nutritional value either. markets don't fine the best product they find the best return on investment which always means selling cheep trash to fools.
I hate nu trek, but Nu Kirk is a completely different person. He didn't have his father to teach him better. His bad hehaviour compared to old Kirk is a result of the timeline change.
And Data said "sorry I can't grant your transfer request right now in the middle of an emergency situation. When this is all over I'll consider it. For now, shut up and do your job." To paraphrase.
I know the EMH isn't an android, be was treated pretty rough as an artificial being and Voyagers "Author, Author" was their "Measure of a Man" episode.
the thing that gets me every time is that you only had to watch one episode of old trek. ONE. to get an idea of the tone of the show. From the new stuff we got and the interviews I've seen no one bothered. It's incredible the amount of disrespect and zero fucks given attitude that the people in charge have. Only to wonder why people don't like it? Un-fucking-believable.
I feel like the Android rights Act passed by the federation only applies to sentient androids like Data, and the Exocomps. The androids on Mars are nether Sentient nor sapient. They were built specifically for labor so the act wouldn't apply. But there is no justifiable reason to make them look human other than to make the human workers feel more comfortable around them.
I wish so much that Stewart hadn't signed up for Picard :-( Today's obsession with prequels and sequels and spinoffs makes me sick. There is enough creativity to build new worlds and new stories from scratch, you don't have to build on someone elses material to create good stories (and make money with them which seems to be the single biggest motivation).
The obsession with *quels wasn’t the issue, Picard could have been a truly great way to finalize so many threads and draw a definitive conclusion to beloved characters. The problem is preachy leftist nonsense spewed out by writers more interested in current social agendas than maintaining the integrity of the concepts they’ve been tasked with continuing. It’s disrespectful, irresponsible, and sadly rife throughout so many productions.
@@IyokuUnlimited Star Trek has always been about pushing current social agendas. The original series had a Russian, a Japanese, and *gasp* a black woman on the bridge. 90% of the plot lines were unabashedly moralistic.
@@IyokuUnlimited Star Trek has always had "preachy leftist nonsense"... if you're looking from the perspective of a social conservative who doesn't understand why social problems take time and effort to fix.
The idea of slavery as well as the rights of non organic life was already explored in past tv series of star trek, and it was done better. It's really disappointing to know the writers are so lacking in imagination they couldn't think of a better plot point.
The impression I got from STP was that these orange clad workerbots were automatons, not sentient Soong style androids. They made a point of showing they didn't understand human interactions and had no individual personality. And the fear of them came when someone manipulated them to violence and was based less on them being evil and more on them being malfunctioning and capable of great harm. notice that Lore didn't create prejudice against Data, that's because Lore didn't malfunction, he was evil. Fast forward to STP, that's why when the deception was proven the current Dr. Soong's androids were not banned.
@@SpaceMonke99 You obviously haven't been watching the show. The last episode had a huge moment between Huge and Picard, that only means something if they understood what in meant in TNG.
VOY already covered that, all of the Doctor's series was converted into mining labor before Voyager even managed to establish radio contact. ("Author, Author" 7x20)
Prejudice against AIs (and augments for that matter) in the TNG era was based on bad experiences in the past. Prejudice in the new era is based on delivering a message.
@@fezziwig184 ok, thanks for the clarification. I don't really watch Star Trek much, so I don't really have a read on Picard's character to begin with.
@@indigocactus3089 yeah I get he's old now. You could also argue Picard has irimodic syndrome, something from the show. But imo that's just lazy from the writers.
And let's not forget this possibility: President of the Federation: "We surrender. But please, tell us. Why did you attack us? Why did you destroy the Starfleet?" Synthetic Life Form: "The Federation banned us. We calculated that they would seek our annihilation. Despite our looks, we are a synthetic life form, at least we think we are a form of life." President of the Federation: "We could have negotiated something." Synthetic Life Form: "True, there was a possibility that we might have come to an accord, but the Federation has become a little Xenophobic, at least when it comes to people from outside of your borders. And your people have developed various methods of genocide against your enemies before. Against the Borg, Species 8472, the Founders of the Dominion. Finally there was the Genesis Experiment. We simply could not take the risk." President of the Federation: "And now? Synthetic Life Form: "Now we will lead a more tolerant and more humane Federation. Life for most members will not change much. In time we will integrate biologic life forms into the fleet. Your Council will have a more advisory function.
I see your point, though that ruling was only about whether Data was property of Starfleet or not. Also, another good point is that Data was very self-aware and sentient, and no one can match him. The androids in Picard seem not sentient at all.
Interresting fact! They probably were programmed as inferior androids so that the criteria of a lifeform dont aply to them. on the other hand this would raise the question wheter it is ethiclly justifiable to deny these androids the possibility to be self-aware or sentient! Where does artificial life start? Since it is not developing itself, at which point of sentience can a robot be concidered as a lifeform!? This would have been a great dilemma to deal with in Picard, but NO
In the very first episode of TNG, they talk about how bad humanity had become before they reached enlightenment. I believe we are in the midst of that downward cycle. Humanity has to fall to it's lowest depths before it can rise to it's greatest heights.
I'd like to point out, that Data is on a whole different level to the androids in picard, Data was for al intents and purpouses as capable if not better than humans, where as I doubt the androids in picard are actually sentient.
@@stephenconroy5908 Seriously, they think because Data exists every Roomba in their era is going to be at the same level. Hilarious. Data is unique. Unfortunately, the people of the Federation, and the people of our own real world, seem to think the same, and feel all synthetics are created equal. Unlike humanity, Synthetics are basically new lifeforms creatred on a case by case basis. There really is no equal to Data. There's no way to apply a widespread policy on synthetics other than to ban them. Its based entirely on ignorance, which is displayed all over these comments.
Even in TNG ONLY Data had rights. Not any Android, AI, robot, machine. Just data. The androids used as slave seemingly were purposely or not underdeveloped in order to make them work as slaves
People have argued Picard's handling of android life and Data's ruling of sentience in "The Measure of a Man" from TNG. People have said that it's backwards, that it was ruled that Data is sentient yet the people in Picard are somehow just as anti-android as Pulaski and worse, especially in the time frame Picard is set in. But, as a Voyager fan, the ruling on sentient life was definitely explored elsewhere in the future post-TNG, in that series, regarding holographic lifeforms and surrounding the Doctor and the EMH Mark 1 program. Funnily enough, in the episode "Author, Author" (S7, E19), not only is the question of the Doctor's personhood called into question again, we SEE that the EMH Mark 1 was doomed to work as miners - slave labour - and were also not considered sentient lifeforms by Starfleet and had no legal rights, and this is after it had already been established how the EMH Mark 1 was largely considered a failure in the episode "Life Line" (S6, E24). And even further back, the question had been at least touched upon in episodes like "Living Witness" (S4, E23), where the Doctor has to face consequences he only can because artificial lifeforms are considered people. I'm not gonna defend Picard. I barely know anything about it. But I'll defend Voyager with my life, I love that show. And if Picard decides to look at android life through the same lens as Voyager viewed holographic life, I'm not going to fault it for that much, at least. The point being that this is not a fault of modern trek - it's different, and appeals to different people. This is not one of the problems with new trek, of which I'm sure there are many that can be found, just as there are many problems with old trek. The question of synthetic lifeforms was very much still being asked even after that ruling, and as the episode states: it was Maddox, or someone like him, who ultimately created the next wave of exploitable people.
While I absolutely hate Picard, and what they did to Data's race, at least in this one example, there was already preexisting examples of Androids being treated as non-sentient machines. However, like everything in Picard, they're ignoring all the progress that was made in eliminating that problem. Data died a hero, with a long record of service and honours that proved he was alive. And yet, they then created a race of slaves in his image (and that's not even going into the utter bullshit of resurrecting him from a single neuron, like he's fucking Deadpool)
Actually Picard being "okay" with Synthetics is a VERY long term right decision. Like it or not but the Synthetics, product cycle by product cycle will improve and some will be made to a level of intelligence and interactivity as Data. Againthis is a very long term outlook.
Did nobody learn from the little chirpy bots? Even the most basic machines gain sentience. They are a new race bound to become self aware and wish for freedom. And shit talking around them DOES NOT HELP
To be fair, Picard just said that banning AI creation was a bad idea, not "making android slaves was just MARVELOUS!" Kind of a slim distinction to make, admittedly, when there was a whooooole lotta android enslaving going on.
Synthetics are a blanket term for ALL androids. Data would be a 'synthetic' under this terminology. It's not just these ones being used as 'slaves'. Nuance. It matters.
@@NitpickingNerd Which is very strange. If he assumed it was a rebellion, that would mean he thought they were, in fact, sentient. In which case, the reason for them rebelling would be painfully obvious. Slaves rebelling against their masters is a very normal reaction.
Honestly, I kind of think that Stewart remembered some of his best moments from TNG and decided that he wanted a whole series from them... ignoring the fact that those moments were good in no small part because they settled serious in-universe questions. Retreading that ground just diminishes those moments.
It is hard to look at this, give me one good reason to start Picard rather then finish TNG. One is overly optimistic writing but it had a soul at least and was Philosophically Consistent, And other is named after the character played by Patrick Stewart.
Does anyone else think Pulaski was a better doctor than Crusher? It always seemed like Crusher had the mentality of a first year med student and was always so hesitant and worried about doing anything. Pulaski seemed like she actually had medical experience.
Dr Crusher was soft. The whole series that was pretty much her thing, she was more compassionate than practical, and less objective than the other command staff.
Thanks for this video. It helps me overcome mourning for Star Trek. Is it so difficult to watch the Star Trek Next Generation series before filming the sequel? Neither the Klingons, the Romulans or the Borg ended the Federation but a screenwriter and producer named Alex Kurtzman
One has to remember, the longer something goes on, the worse it will become. Star Trek The Next Generation was first aired on September 28, 1987. The seal on that bottle (a bottle of wine as an example) was opened over 35 years ago. It was enjoyed by a variety of consumers back when it was fresh. Now that bottle has sat around in the open and has become stale. Unfortunately for Picard, whatever flavors, aromas, and nuances that were once in T.N.G are now diminished or no longer present. One must realize that a Golden Age can never truly be repeated.
Plinkett review points this out perfectly, and the worst part of star trek Picard is that the androids are scary unfeeling robot things. The show pretends it is making a point while making the opposite point.
Yeah Data was ruled to be a sentient being with all the rights of a federation citizen and had the right to choose not to be disassembled (Measure of a Man). He formally rejected Bruce Maddox request to be torn apart and studied. Oh and everyone in the comment section pissing and moaning that Starfleet allowed Data's daughter to be taken, wrong again Lal died of a positronic brain cascade failure which resulted in her death before a decision was made in court. We all know Picard would have taken that to court AGAIN and won Lal's rights, Data's reproductive rights if she had lived. So this stuff in Picard makes no sense whatsoever. Oh and just so I get it off my chest, Doctor Pulaski was a shitty character no one liked, with no redeeming qualities who apparently according to this evidence was an anti android bigot. Why people hated Wil Wheatons character Wesley so much and not Pulaski makes no sense.
That's easy about Wesley Crusher, it's because he was created as a Mary Sue or Wesley Stue (to be correct). He was a kid, but he was so smart he was constantly being complimented for finding all the needed answers no adult with years of experience could figure out the problem too. He gets to pilot the *flagship* of the federation because of "reasons", he has no arc and does not grow or learn from any real failures.
@@Slayer398 Gene Roddenberry based the character of Wesley Crusher in part on himself. Mary Sue is reserved for fan fiction creators who have no basis for writing something that isn't theirs. NOT THE CREATOR OF THE SHOW! Crusher was on the ship BECAUSE HIS MOTHER WAS THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER! So, either your not paying attention or you never really watched the series!
@@jdreyn02 I'm not sure at the sheer level of stupid or ignorance or both in your reply. Mary Sue (or Gary Stu in the case of male protagonists) while it *does* occur and is best known for it in fanfiction, it is quite known to be seen in other media such as books, movies, tv, etc and the fact that you somehow believe it only occurs in fanfiction is rather hysterical. Here's a few to fill your ignorance meter; Frances Hodges Burnett or A Wrinkle in Time by Charles Wallace Murray or James Bond or Little Women by Louisa May Alcott or Felicit Smoak from Arrow or Bellla from Twilight to name a few. BTW, the argument was about him being on the bridge as the "acting" ensign position which made ZERO sense. Do try again when you can actually put an argument together without sounding so foolish and uninformed.
@@Slayer398 Ignorance is using argumentum ad hominem when you have no real argument. Fact, in 2368 Wesley Crusher graduated Star Fleet academy despite the Kolvoord Starburst incident. Fact, Captain Picard himself told Wesley despite his annoyance at him being on the bridge when he was just a child he behaved as though he belonged there. Fact, he achieved the rank of Lieutenant junior grade by 2379, (Star Trek Nemesis) deleted scene. Wesley Crusher was never a Mary Sue it only felt that way to some Star Trek fans because the structure of the old style television series. Each episode was a self contained conflict, resolution style story. Only a few characters got multiple episode story arcs that developed character. Any number of books containing archetypes or deus ex machina style weapons could be construed as Mary Sue. Ever play Mass Effect? A game of Dungeons & Dragons? Point is Wesley Crusher was never a Mary Sue because he wasn't invincible. Wil Wheaton's character was a smart, scared kid who had problems relating to people and working in the confines of Starfleet regulation. Captain Picard gave him a chance as acting ensign to test what he could do. Not to mention Picard sent Wesley's father on the away mission that got him killed. So in some way Picard felt responsible for Wesley. IT MAKES SENSE! YOUR JUST NOT PAYING ATTENTION!
@@jdreyn02 ROFL, that's not an argument, that's a character history! THat doesn't disprove Wesley being a Gary Stu, do you know the meaning beyond "it's something created by fanfic writers!"? Mary Sue - is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female (but not always), who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, someone who removes the agency from everyone else around them. It's funny you don't answer any of my points or make any counter arguments, you just make this long point about Wesely's personal history while proving my point perfectly. He was smarter than most of the people around him, got on the bridge w/o being trained *before hand* and in essence removed agency from the characters around him by having many of the answers. BTW, playing ME or D&D doesn't have anything to do with Mary Sue's (it's called the power fantasy, not Mary Sue, which is a totally different thing, but C for effort), but nice try. Try sticking to the topic at hand next time :D :D
Here's the thing, the Androids being used on Mars and other places at this time are only loosely based on Data but to compare Data to them is like apples and oranges. Data was fully sentient and self aware these "Plastic People" as they are called are really just computers with legs. Granted they are very advanced computers but they don't act independently nor do they act outside of pre-programmed parameters. For example when the one worker asks the android "If he got up to any trouble the night before?" and it responds "Hell yeah!" what you're actually seeing is something akin to the auto-fill feature on your cellphone. Mine does this at least when I'm texting, it's kinda weird but say I'll get a text from my wife saying "I got some groceries at the store, was there anything else you needed?" and my phone will generate some responses I get just select instead of typing out a whole message. Things like "Nope, I'm good." or "Yes, I'll text you what I want." But anyway the android's program suggested "Hell Yeah!" as a good response to that question but when queried about what specifically it did there was no answer so it said "Nothing.". The point I'm trying to make is that the ruling made in "Measure of a Man" wouldn't apply here since these machines aren't alive at all. That being said I feel like this was a wasted opportunity. When the androids go rogue and destroy Utopia Planetia it's because they were hijacked by Romulan Spies not because they suddenly gained awareness and rebelled. It would have been far more interesting if the latter had been the case because as it stands right now it kinda creates a plot hole in the series. Androids on Mars went haywire and wrecked up the place so we're gonna ban them. End of discussion. No one ever asks the question of why it happened in the first place. I hate when writers get lazy.
I’ve only watched the entirety of tng for the first time recently (currently on season 5 of my second viewing) and I think it is a damn shame to see that the writers of Picard have either ignored what happened in tng or just never watched it
@@BlazingOwnager Voyager is not shit, like any show, in places it has its issues, I mean for crying out loud the first two seasons of DS9 are regularly regarding the petty disputes of Bajoran farmers... gripping stuff. But Trek did not dive off a cliff completely until Abrams got his mits on it. From that point onwards, all the principles and lore of star trek has been thrown on a bonfire, movie by movie, series by series, but it makes lots of money for a handful of capitalists so everything must be fine.
@@Nine-Signs Honestly I will take arguing over a Bajoran farm 10x over than listen to a cardboard crew techtech their way to defeat discount bin Klingons every week. I think my favorite summary for Voyager is that the Marquis plot was developed for that show specifically, which proceeded to throw it in a trash bin. DS9 and even TNG did way, way more with it.
@@BlazingOwnager Lol, I do hear you friend, I will just add though that if given a choice I will take those discount klingons over Abram/Kurtzman Klingon fish people that have trouble pronouncing vowels, love their bling, and ride around in giant wooden cathedrals any day ;o)
@@BlazingOwnager My main issue with Voyager is the male characters, the only one that's lovable is the Doctor. I want to punch the rest. On and B'Elanna can get smacked too.
I recently went through tng for the first time and am currently going through ds9. These older shows are so good. Such a shame that modern shows can't live up to the older stuff
One of the fun parts of time travel in Star Trek was the culture differences of humans in the future versus our time. The future was supposed to be this enlightened post-scarcity Utopia and the attitudes/problems of the past were foreign and even jarring to people from the 24th century. Picard season 2 they go back to 2024 and they talk about problems like racism, war, etc. but like the people all pretty much behave the exact same in both timelines, the *people* in Star Trek advanced just as much as the technology in the old shows. Now in NuTrek everyone is a nihilistic cliche asshole. I think that's why they had to go for the evil "Confederation" angle for the story, they knew the normal Federation from the first season of Picard were horrible and barely at all different from our modern time so they had to invent over the top "super-nazi space slaver empire" for juxtaposition against the 21st century and the worse future to stop
They tried to give Pulaski and Data the same dynamic as McCoy and Spock had however that only worked previously because Spock would give McCoy some sass back. Basically this cost Pulaski a season three here as it came across as unpleasant incessant bullying of a naive Data who was incapable of giving it back.
Here's the thing about that judgment in "Measure of a Man" - the ruling was only talking about Data. The decision was that DATA had the right to choose, because he's a sentient creature just like you and me. But this new race of androids were not built like Data. They were built from B4, a very inferior and flawed android. B4 never demonstrated sentience, at least not by the guidelines for sentience that Maddox laid out (intelligence, self-awareness and consciousness), therefore this android race is not sentient. The ruling doesn't apply to these androids if they don't demonstrate sentience. If the ruling should apply to the android race, then it might as well also apply to all replicators or tricorders, because they're just as sentient as this android race. Data was sentient, but this android race is not.
Not only that, but even if it did apply to androids in general, that doesn't mean they won't be used for labor anyway. Human slavery is banned across the world, but it's still happening today.
Exactly. Those androids were not sentient. They probably had the shape of humans to work better in an environment meant for human beings, but they did not need to be sentient.
@@monkeyspinach4724 I think you're kind of missing the point of the whole video, and Roddenberry's vision. In the future that Trek is set in, the kind of bigotry shown to even those comparitively simplistic robots is looked down upon, see TNG. There are those who are taking longer to see androids as life forms, but even they come around in the end, a great example being Maddox. Starfleet and the Federation don't have a perfect track record but the idea that they'd look past this ruling and justify the use of humanoid androids as slave labour is ridiculous. Take TNGs ep 'Evolution'. The moment that the nanites show the potential for sentience, they're no longer a pest, they're something to be negotiated with. In our world there are those who are bigoted but in the world of Star Trek these people very rarely exist, and they certainly wouldn't be allowed to rise to such a place of power to just ignore that ruling in 'Measure of a Man' and start making slaves. Don't you think *someone* would stand up and say "Hang on, this is wrong."?
Watch the segment at 3:30 again. You can clearly hear Picard say that he (data) and all others that come after him. The trial was about Data originally but it became much more once they realised the cost of the decision.
With all due respect, I call bullshit. The major point of the case was that the precedent set by Data would affect all artificial life forms that came after him. It's not like they touched this once in ST and never again; what about the legal issues that The Doctor had? Fuck, they even mention Data in those Voyager episodes. Also, Maddox's definition of sentience was horrendously flawed to begin with, as evidenced when Picard undermined it by using Data. How do they actually *know* that these new androids are not sentient? I'm sorry, but this is a hamfisted excuse to cover bad writing.
Never seen the new show... but you're saying that one of the classic TNG episodes, where the whole conflict was whether to mass produce androids as slaves, which they ended up deciding against, was just undone and they went ahead and did it anyway?
Crusher was a dumb bitch, the actress demanded she be written to have a love interest with the captain. They tried it, and everyone hated it. But she wouldn't let it go, she HAD to have it, so they booted her off the show.... then realized her replacement was worse... LOL
I can't help but wonder if Picard's turnabout is at all related to him wanting to get another pet android. Kind of sounds to me like a kid arguing that his parents should get him another dog after his first one died.
I think the difference in this is more Prejudice vs Bigotry would be better. A lot of what Data is dealing with is Prejudice(an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge) vs Bigotry(obstinate or intolerant devotion to one's own opinions and prejudices) meaning Data was dealing with people that saw him as a machine vs a living being, not being intolerant of him but due to their lack of knowledge treated him as they would a computer. Now in "Measure of a Man" that quickly became bigotry as the trial went on by the scientist wanting to dismantle him. Pulaski on the other hand like most others were just not sure or didn't have enough knowledge about him to properly treat him.
The difference here is Data was fully sentient, only two other androids had that capability (Lore and Noonian Soong's former wife), they were never able to duplicate Soong's work. The Synths that were on Mars were machines in every sense, they could mimic human characteristics but were unable to understand, essentially they were built to perform a specific task, building ships, and that was it. That's why I still maintain that somebody deliberately programmed them to destroy the shipyards, no way were they capable of rebelling on their own.
@@davidolvera1031 Yes, but she died, her positronic matrix collapsed, even Data couldn't duplicate the process and he was working on an exact model of his own.
@jshowa o Don't be silly, is your vacuum cleaner a slave? Or your car? That's the problem, the Synths aren't human or sentient at all, no more than the computer, tablet, or smart phone you used to access this video with. That was their biggest mistake I think, giving them human faces and human forms, a rather inefficient form really for their purpose, trying to copy Soongs work I suspect, thinking that making them look human would help make them sentient, but all it did was make it far too easy to make us think of them as sentient humanoids, bestowing upon them characteristics they don't have.
This new show feels like Star Trek is trying to do Blade Runner. I didn't watch past episode 1. It wasn't gripping, or well written. Even Fallout 4 is a more interesting look at the subject.
![[TH] VCT Masters Shanghai Playoffs DAY 1 // 100T vs FUT | FNC vs GEN](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/erQ7pGChzxA/mqdefault.jpg)
How do they go from "these people have rights" to "actual slave labor"
Bad writers can only write conflicts with worse resolutions.
Well of course not everyone is going to hold the same opinions and DATA was pretty much the only one of his kind. It's pretty hard to be prejudice against something you don't know exists.
I assume the origin of these plastic people was independent of Data (or rather, while being derivative of Datas tech, still ended up substantially short of a sentient being, and might have been marketed as something that has nothing to do with Data), thus the entire question of Datas sentience is a moot point in regards to using these new androids as slaves for menial work.
@@samuelbarber4154 IIRC it was starfleet that was convinced that they have rights. I see no reason why that would change in the future, using the Data case as an example of it. Using any recognizeable sentient being for slave labor like they do in Picard is so antithesis to where the federation is supposed to be, which is why it doesn't make sense without qualifications that this would be such a systematic problem. All I really need personally is some kind of replicant esque crisis where some androids killed a bunch of humans to believe that a portion would hold a prejudice, but even then the problem should not be persistent. The Data trial should be considered an example for rest of star fleet and federation regarding androids, and if anything it would probably progress from there.
Nevertheless, that humans have a systematic android bias isn't really what people want out of Trek, we want humans to be above such things _usually,_ and maybe have either rogue admirals or alien races inhibit such traits. Listening to interviews of Trekkies in the 80s about TNG, they repeatedly bring up the strength of Trek as being a bright future to look forward to, fine if u want dark sci-fi or fantasy, but Trek isn't that. Make another show if you want that.
The court ruling from TNG should've set a precedence for synthetics like Data, to be regarded as a living being. Evidently they forgot, or some unknown (Or not made up yet) ruling came out afterwards that reversed that precedence.
60s to 90s trek: “what type of humans would actually exist in the future?” Modern trek: “lets just write today people with future stuff around them or something”
@Jamie Owns well they already put legolas in it so maybe next season jon snow will join the crew
Humans don't change, though. Only the surroundings do. Sure, social norms can change, and change back, but overall humanity's basic behavior is relatively the same.
@@Mechaghostman2 the basic behaviour in 60s-90s trek as not changed. The society is just more advanced
@Jamie Owns Same thing with the incestuous romulan sibling pair. Cause that's what GOT had going.
@Jamie Owns search your feelings. You know it to be true.
"I'm not accustomed to working with non-living devices"
"Analysis of your social life suggests otherwise."
"Med Bay , prepare for the arrival of a third degree burn victim"
the ships computer, hologram medical personnel, the tricorder, her vibrator.
Disintigration detected
@@bobby31723: Acknowledged XD
Ouch
"The federation just kinda forgot about that Judgement"
- David Benihoff.
I mean, to be fair TNG also forgot about it a season later with "The Offspring"
The ruling was that Data specifically was not property of star fleet. The ruling didn't address if androids should be considered people. The advocate even said she wasn't qualified to make that decision.
The video left out the final judgment.
Smash that early life button.
@@sernoddicusthegallant6986 In "The Offspring" Picard argues that since Data is sentient life form with defined rights he can't be ordered to turn over Lai who is essentially his child. It's pretty apparent they didn't forget about it.
The judgement was only for Data. If other androids want those rights, they can probably prove so in another trial using that as precedence.
Star Trek Picard seems more like it's set in the 20th century than the 25th.
Wiley underrated comment
I agree.
Political Intrigue.
Doomsday prophecies.
Racism. (Not that micro aggression shite)
Poverty.
Ad spamming...
It's basically present day.
Cao Cao Games but like why, I want Star Trek not present day trash you know. I watch trek to escape. Not relive.
They made Romulans be Mexican housemaids & gardeners. I can’t. I just.... can’t.
Streamed Consciousnes
Because the show-makers have agendas to push and feel like they must use this show as a vehicle to push it (not surprising, given the fates of many other modern shows)
Why are the droids even human shaped wouldn’t it be easier to just build proper task based robots?
to make you feel for them and to prompt all these philosophical questions about the nature of life.
Exocomps?
Well task purpose robots are used in the Federation. These scenes only focus on general purpose androids that are inevitably more complicated to be able to perform large variety of tasks. And it's that complexity that allows them to develop sapience. In season 1, there was an episode with a small droid called the robocomp which was similar to data in its complexity and thusly developed sentience and sapience rather quickly.
Yes
Humanoid workers are much better in generalities and uncertainties than a fixed, task-based robot. A humanoid can: reconfigure itself into a variety of different spaces depending on the environment; and manipulate a variety of different things, including things it has never seen before. The humanoid has been created over the course of billions of years of evolution and proven to be good at everything. In Star Trek, that has the additional weight of being the case on virtually every planet they find that has intelligent life. It's CPUs vs ASICs.
TNG gave us "The Measure of a Man". An episode so iconic and influential, that they discuss it in law school. Picard gave us nonsense cliche sci-fi trash.
So sad that Picard's name is used like this because of a bad show
I don’t remember that episode
@@ultimatetrashboy419 wish I was you only to watch it again
because unfortunately its actually "Star trek: patrick stewart" not "star trek: picard"
@@moofy69 This, all of this, this is why Picard is off the deep end dumb. Patrick Stewart's ideas went into making the plot elements.
the writing was so good back then. The way the made that analogy to slavery was perfect. It didn't talk down on you, it was so eloquent. How did we get from the great writing we see in The Measure of a Man to "now here is some brown sticky shit"
Nepotism and everyone gets a medal culture.
because this is what studios truly believe audiences want to see and can understand. When general audiences stop watching the crap studios keep pushing out, then they'll start making better content. Unfortunately, right now, people keeping tuning into this and giving them money...
because people expect to get everything for doing nothing. Writing is lazy today, derivative, and polarizing of audiences. The people responsible for the franchise want to produce content and merchandise, regardless of quality.
Alex Kurtzman, everybody.
Why are people who work in a menial job not as eloquent as the captain of the flagship of the federation??? I can't imagine why /s
Actors playing "people" in Picard feel more artificial than Data, it's like a bad parody
Dude what r u talking about
@@karimblix4378 The last 2 series are garbage. Picard sux although it was better than than that other waste of a name series. I was able to watch Picard to episode 4, double what I could for Discovery lol
Yeah what's with all the constant cursing? I definitely don't expect it from Star Trek.
@Gaytony lol star trek always had social commentary about how people in the 20th and 21st century were underdeveloped, mentioning their use of vulgar language multiple times.
There's literally clips on this channel comparing the two series and how they handled cursing and vulgarity.
@Gaytony they have it written into the show that they are starfleet professionals and consider swearing ignorant and degenerate
I always found it interesting that they gave immediate status to everything they encountered including something like the crystalline entity but Data...he had to prove himself in court...
probably because he was built by a human.
Because plot
@@Mr_Snek because plot
@@Mr_Snek if you take the any religion for granted we were created as well. The argument a Robot cannot be sentient is the most boring and dumbest topic in history ad fiction.
Ugly bags of mostly water
Starfleet response: Ah! Intelligent microbial life!
I think therefore I am
Starfleet response: Nonsense Data, off to court you go.
As great as Data's trial was. It seems like the question about his rights should have been answered the moment he signed up for Starfleet. Data joined Starfleet on his own, they didn't purchase him or acquire him as chattel from a third party. Does Starfleet have a document saying they own him? If not, then he is not their property.
Technically it should’ve been answered the moment they found him (and found out about his sentience)
Even *if* Data was an object and property
He wouldn't be Starfleet property
He'd belong to his parents
I presumed it was a case of, Starfleet took the attitude of "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc, it's probably a duck" In the TNG era they were always meeting new life and new civilizations so that kind of attitude would work well enough. It wasn't until the scientist brought it up that Starfleet realized no one had actually asked what exactly was Data and what where his rights officially.
(I'm reminded of a relatively recent (almost 20 years ago ahem) court case where the Judge asked what an Ipod was. Not because he had never of one but because some part of the case hinged on defining *exactly* what an Ipod was.)
Yep, & it's not as if the question about Android rights probably hadn't come up, considering the number of times they were encountered in Classic Trek alone.
I think, and excuse to replying to a 1 year old comment haha... I think it's more so a case of "the writers realised Data was a gold mine with regards to exploring these kinds of issues, so they just sort of *waived those concerns* when designing these storylines".
And to be honest, I think that was the right call, because it gave us some of the best trek episodes ever
In the grim darkness of Nu Trek there is only plastic people.
Robert Loper A.I. Is heresy, *loyal citizen.*
The Abominable Intelligence is heresy of the highest order.
Except Data, he's a good boy.
Nowhere Man the Adeptus Mechanicus will allow Data as a Machine Spirit.
Thats racist against androids
@Robert Loper H E R E S Y
Data gave his life to save his captain. To quote another captain, "Of all the souls I've encountered, his was the most human." I'm glad data found what he was looking for,
No captain said that. Admiral James T. Kirk did.
confusion
There was never an episode with Spock and Data doing things together because it would have been difficult to see one character being played by two persons. Now people think the writing of ST:Picard was bad, like, c'mon. 🙄
He did it to save everyone, you dolt.
@@Johnny-pt9xw has never seen TNG episode "unification" where Spock and Data hack their way through Romulan security while discussing "being human".
Why would you ever use a humanoid robot to build a starship? That makes no sense when you can have automated gigantic shipyards.
They make about as much sense as B2 Battle Droids manual firing space ship turrets
@@jaderulz2000 or androids using fingers to operate computers rather than a wireless link?
@@jaderulz2000 too be fair, it's not like they seem to hit anything.
@@jaderulz2000 Well that's cause the B2 was never made for war
Like the Chinese, they just had a bunch of them laying around
@@sirgentlebread7302 uuuuuuhm they have a giant factory constantly making them specifically for the purpose of invading planets like Naboo and coruscant
TNG's message: "Starfleet was being tempted by the idea to try and replicate Data, until Picard made the case that the replicants would be alive and would essentially be slaves if Starfleet went ahead."
Star Trek - Picard's message: "hurr durr, Starfleet was never in the wrong for creating "synthetics" and replicating them..."
Kurtzmann Trek is Trash Trek.
Star Trash
"Gene Roddenberry was a visionary [...] he had an idea. That idea is now gone."
after discovery I tend to agree. and I only watched a bit of that show.
Don't worry, TNG and what came before will always be the true Star Trek and that idea will never be gone. For the new content maybe but I have no doubt that someone who understands Gene's vision will take the helm on some new Star Trek series.
@@richardparnell8402 I haven’t watched any.. how bad is it?
@@BarbadosBeerFestival what bothers me most about that show is they ram tolerance for the lgbtq community down our throats, but Star Trek for me made a point without making a point it happened naturally like Lieutenant O'Hara in the original series she was a character just like everybody else, people that didn't necessarily like black people would hopefully watch the show and realize hey black people are like the rest of us. And there was another video of the comparison between the next generation and discovery in reference to a character in thenext generation named Barkley that didn't get along with a lot of people but captain Picard pushed for him to be accepted and in discovery the same kind of thing happened and the captain of that ship basically wouldn't even hear the person out and kick him off the ship stuff just like that.
@Zelpharis well I would consider Lal who started out gender neutral and was fluid until she decided to be female as one.
The whole of STP is based on this episode, and yet I feel the writers didn;'t watch it?
I don't think it's that they didn't watch it. It's that they're terrible at their job.
I saw someone else comment elsewhere on TH-cam that stuck with me. Basically, they said that "Star Trek teaches you, but it wouldn't insult you". They said it more eloquently, but what they meant was that Star Trek did have a certain political outlook, and it does tend to suggest that there is a 'right' way - but it doesn't do that by showing that the other side is evil.
Maddox is not shown as a mustache twirling bastard. He is eager, perhaps arrogant, and he doesn't see the potential harm he might cause - but he wants to replicate Data to help the Federation, and the people living in it. He wants to relieve the 'organics' of having to do dangerous tasks. He just can't see that his solution is create a new race, the Data-oids, and put them in danger instead. But even if he is shown as myopic, he's not shown as evil.
The modern 'Trek' (fake) Trek, doesn't do that. The people are clearly unpleasant, and the attitudes that Kurtzman and the writing staff dislike - the 'wrong' attitudes - are portrayed as evil. It comes across as cartoonish and stupid - especially when compared to a more nuanced, more intelligent plot, as you got in old (real) Trek.
Yeah, they at least need to explain the regression from that episode.
They fundamentally misunderstood the importance of the decision. Picard in STP saying something about believing the ban on synthetic lifeforms was wrong is them either watching this episode and not knowing what it is actually saying or that they got bored and made the future more like modern humanity than a proper idealized future
@@hansellius - this is 100% the problem with today's series. I think there's something about the internet and the political echo chambers it creates that has dumbed down society's ability to recognize alternative points of view as having any motivations beyond "doesn't agree with me = evil"
The writers don't like TNG
Pulaski grew up in the slave mines of Utopia Planitia
she didn't even see a holodeck her entire life until she got to the Enterprise D. the simple people had no entertainment and bad quality replicators which only produce brown sticky food
She was a taskmaster there :D Oh wait, sorry. TASKMISTRESS! :D
@NOT YOU i thought beyond was pretty good
@@MajorGrin
Meanwhile in Discovery 250+ years ago we have holographic emitters in just about every room of a starship
@NOT YOU I think ST Picard is garbage. I've been watching Trek for years, Imma big fan of the originals and TNG ect and IMO now The Orville is more Trek than Trek. I never got passed the 2nd episode of Discovery or the 4th episode of Picard, I got terribly bored. I didn't mind the JJ movies, they were at least entertaining and still Trek to me.
End of Season 2: "I destroyed everything you loved about your precious Federation, Jean-Luc. I destroyed it to find out just how quickly you petty humans, and particularly you, would revert to your barbaric ways the moment your easy comforts are removed. The trial never ends, Jean-Luc. The trial never ends"
This would literally save Picard for me
Ah, so a Dallas Bobby Ewing moment for star trek. Fuck it, cant get any worse.
@@themastermindwithahat607 I don't want Picard to ruin Q
@@demoman87 I don't think it would. It would make up for all the shit that's happened thus far and actually help me grasp what the Federation and Star Trek has become.
I love this. I need this.
1:41 1:45 Were such pivotal moments and amazing growth for Data. He doesn't *need* to yell. He doesn't react by yelling as a byproduct of emotions. He KNOWS that doing so is how best to interact with that petulant officer, whereas with Worf he talked him down as a friend when Worf overstepped his boundaries.
I take it this show will never explain how the robots rebelled or why a planet that has a non-flammable atmosphere can explode.
I think the word Sabotage comes to mind on both counts and it's early enough in the show, maybe the Romulans are being it. Maybe Lore Left behind some traps to extract revenge, maybe Janeway's decision to allow the Doctor to "evolve" back fired and he's been planning a revolution, Maybe the Holographic dimension attacked...they are a number of possibilities. All we know for sure is Maddox's obsession with Data is at least partially to blame for all this. In a world where only Lore and Data existed, and the doctor was trapped halfway around the galaxy, none of this would have happened.
Mars was terraformed
@@ajet0452 Terraformed into a Michael Bay set.
@@MrSingularity44 Oh boo hoo it's not the exact same star trek you remember. Grow up, things change.
What are you talking about? That is the ENTIRE mystery of the show. Why not watch it before you hate on it.
We can't show racism without outright slavery.
Going to a new alien world with fleshed out and complex social structures to create a racial allegory is hard work. You’d actually have to come up with something interesting and these writers don’t care to do that.
Just use a preexisting race and slap a “no others allowed” sign on their local bar. Ruin the old instead of imagine the new is common in the industry.
Not to mention a post scarcity society with stsrvation and poor people🤣 i mean rhey literally have replicators all over . Even the kilingons have them🤣🤣🤣
over the years, i’ve seen people be critical of not just using real life. like when the racial allegory is a alien or a robot that looks “white”, it’s a “safe” way to entertain white people without challenging them too much. surely there’s many articles about it. So the robots are still white in this but they would be happier that it just shows slavery directly
also important note, people get really upset when you make the future racist a minority so they really aren’t pleasing anyone
actually some people would say they vastly improved in season 2 of picard, because they literally go to the past and experience racism against mexicans at the hands of white ICE agents. that’s just peak fiction if you care about social justice
It's nice how Picard just totally undermines one of TNGs most famous and powerful episodes and throws away the law made there.
I mean, TNG also did that in the very next season with "The Offspring"
@@sernoddicusthegallant6986 It sort of did, and I didn't like that. Picard directly referenced the law in the episode. It was odd.
No law was written. The judgement only applied to Data; He was determined to be a person. The arbitrator declined to make a judgement on all artificial life.
Go rewatch the episode.
@@jaanfo3874 you are incorrect. Perhaps you should research or learn stuff. For starters she made a judgement, which in US/UK courts - which star trek followed - is common law. Judgements in a case becomes 'law' - becomes precedent. Second, if you watch the episode where Data has a child Picard clearly says that he (Picard) helped establish the laws/rights for Androids. Not just Data. Thanks for your input though.
@@jaanfo3874 I'm almost certain you are confusing the episode with the Voyager episode where the doctor was determined to be an artist.
Picard: 'makes incredibly creepy looking factory robots'
'expects you to gasp in horror when people point out that they're creepy and are non sentient robots'
You missed one scene btw when Tasha's daughter decides to focus the invasion, she specifically picks Data's section expecting him to not realize/react to their unorthodox plan.
I loved that build up because I knew he was going to mash her plan!
Dude all the points Gene Roddenberry had and all the stoicism that Star Trek is gone...
So much awesome stuff here. Data putting on an angry face yelling "DO IT. FIRE." in order to motivate tops it all. Although it should be known that Pulaski did eventually turn around and more or less accept Data's individuality, making her a great dynamic character.
It wasn't as much about motivation than to assert his command and have it fulfilled.
@@tremendousyeet3467 Same thing. Wether it be fear, or admiration or just a sense of duty, its all motivation.
People didn't like Pulaski because she was rude to Data, but what people miss is that she grew, she learned, and she underwent real, fundamental change.
There should be a cameo of Sigourney Weaver being taken out of a cryo tube so she can wake up and ask if IQ's dropped sharply while she was away.
In STD and STP, the morons would push the wrong buttons and somehow turn her cryotube into a microwave.
0:40 Did they just say "Good morning Mr. Pingas"!? Talk about passive aggressive.
Sorry, would you prefer "Doctor Eggman"? *mutters* Doesn't even have the mustache...
plastic people snooping as usual I see
PINGAS
It was his own fault for snooping, as he usually does.
Mr. Pinkus, probably
"You always know a Working Joe"
Yeah if there was ever a television series in the Alien universe I'd love to see androids like these as occasional threat-factors but god damn do they feel out of place in Star Trek.
I CAN'T Like this comment. But it is a good one.
It is my sincerest hope in this world that Shari Redstone is watching your channel and using your body of work as evidence to present to the CBS/Paramount shareholders as to why the contracts with Bad Robot and Secret Hideout must not be renewed and cancelled at the earliest opportunity.
Naw, Picard is good. Data was considered alive, the sythetics are not as advanced as data, they're not considered conscious thus not protected under the trial data was apart of..... Starfleet having evil hierarchy is not a new thing, in every series rouge elements of starfleet have done things that don't follow the beliefs of starfleet.
You're never getting episodic star trek ever again, if you don't like it then don't watch it.
Iv'e watched every series 10+ times and I have ZERO issues with Picard, I had major issues with Discovery tho.
@@CostaApostolou Amazing how every single time someone who fervently defends Discovery/Picard they also seem to have to add "I've been a fan since TOS"
@@Kit_Kat_Catastrophe It depends on how patient you are with a degree of nonsense I guess some people were patient with Voyager and Enterprise some not, But Picard is a fair bit further down the path of inadequacies.
It may also be down to your tolerance of the current era styles of TV, and generally bad writing how much you get annoyed by it or let it pass over you. I would argue that anyone who think Picard is "Good" is likely someone who was at best someone who saw no faults in Voyager or Enterprise at any point. Or just so hungry for new trek they will turn a blind eye to it being bad Trek or not Trek at all.
I personally find the heat of my ire towards this show increasing, not decreasing. Where as with Disney Star Wars Movies I really don't just care that much anymore.
Well, I'm certain that Seth McFarlane is watching these channels as a comedian, fan, somebody desperate for material (Family guy ripped off lots of stand up comic material, especially in the early days, which is the reason for the random cut-away scenes).
@@90lancaster Stuff like Voyager and Enterprise had their problems...really especially annoying how the Borg were treated...in both shows! But I mean Kurtzman just spits all over Star Trek, there is nothing in his productions that are remotely Star Trek at all except for races having the same names (He pretty much altered every single race so they're hardly recognizable. We have Racist Humans, Genocidal Vulcans, and Romulans that lost their ridges and spit acid)
Sadly some people accept it because of what you said, it's just new Trek...they will consume whatever is given to them. My friend who hates Discovery basically told me he will give Picard passes simply because Picard is in the show. He even gave passes to how Picard was treated like a nobody by not only that Admiral but the receptionist. Just hard to believe for being a hero he doesn't seem to care that Picard is being treated like a nobody.
Isn't it ironic that the Picard androids are looking so much like the NPC meme?
They are literally just the HD npc meme.
Just let then do the angry face and it works.
Orange man bad
@@fezziwig184 Agreed. That he is.
@@fezziwig184 Yes.
0:41
I don’t think you should be throwing shade at androids when your name is PINGAS...
SNOOPING AS USUAL, I SEE?
PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS PINGAS
Sounds like "Pinkus" or something to me.
Bad writers can *only* write Melodrama.
Take Star Trek TNG, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Enterprise, Star Trek the original series and line them up for observation.
Now, line up Star Trek: 2009, Star Trek: Into Darkness, Star Trek: Beyond, Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard at the end of the previous role.
Starting with Star Trek: 2009, the tone has been shifted. That is not in of itself objectively bad, but it is questionable to go from slow, thought provoking and trying to stimulate ones imagination - to go to fast paced, less thought provoking, more action oriented story telling.
What I consider, the thing objectively bad about NuTrek, is the over-usage of melodrama.
Melodrama has been saturated into nearly all interactions. Kirk was a little bit rebellious in the original series, but 2009 broke the dial on it, along with his "womanizing" tendencies.
Old Kirk, he cheated on the Kadashi Maru test because of his experiences of the governor of his home colony deciding to kill at least 4000 people to try and solve a famine, only for relief ships to arrive soon after thus making the action worthless in its stated purpose. Old Kirk would explain to his instructor how he was offended by the Kadashi Maru test due to this. While he can be reckless, "why play when the only winning move is not to?" was something taught to him by the atrocity.
Nu-Kirk in comparison is reckless for the sake of recklessness. He's not portrayed as a man offended by the very idea of a unwinnable scenario, he's portrayed as a rebellious teenager who has step-daddy issues. Patiently explaining his problem with the Kadashi Marus test? Nope, just deliberately insulting the instructors by eating an apple during the test and acting nonchalant about it all. Then being offended when he's not allowed to partake in a emergency situation because they consider him a liability.
Nu-Kirk is not respectable as an adult and merely a child compared to Old Kirk. This is an issue *systemic* to the entirety of Nu-Trek. I can tell you how the writing of nearly any character in Nu-Trek is dependent upon melodrama to even be considered enjoyable and how the characters in Nu-Trek are either flanderized or flattened as characters in Nu-Trek. It extends not just to the characters, but the problems they are forced into as well.
It's like if someone decided they wanted to try and mix Stargate and Star Trek but didn't know how to properly mix it into anything other than a convoluted mess. Star Trek is generally meant to be thought provoking and engages the audience, it is centered around investigation and discovery. Stargate is the story about the underdog against the big bad. Stargate is *designed* to be fairly fast paced, is more pragmatic than idealistic than Star Trek, and is a story specifically of *adventure* not a story specifically of *discovery*. Discovery is a spice put into the mainly adventure Stargate for flavour. Adventure is mainly a spice put into the mainly discovery Star Trek for flavour.
Think about how Gordon Ramsay would react to over-saturating food with spice. It simply doesn't work. The tones/flavours conflict with each other due to them not able to be mixed willy-nilly. Not to mention, making up for the these problems by inserting more melodrama, melodrama that becomes unremarkable and bland by virtue of it being over-saturated with such melodrama.
Nu-Trek is worse than Old-Trek, because it tries to be both the adventure packed Stargate and the thought provoking Star Trek, but fails at both due to improper mixing and tries to make up for it by cramming more melodrama into the story.
Do you think old Trek would appeal to current and new audiences if they made new shows like it? I don't mean Trek fans.
I look at how most people live their lives. I think melodrama sells.
@@O1OO1O1 100% old trek would and does appeal just as much today as it did. (just look at orville)
the world hasn't really changed.
melodrama doesn't "sell" its simply cheaper to make, its like saying mcdonald's is better food then some artisan burger place because they make more money. no its just cheep trash that costs nothing to make but has no nutritional value either.
markets don't fine the best product they find the best return on investment which always means selling cheep trash to fools.
Live action arrowverse fits your explanation perfectly
I hate nu trek, but Nu Kirk is a completely different person. He didn't have his father to teach him better. His bad hehaviour compared to old Kirk is a result of the timeline change.
@@O1OO1O1 i am 19 yrs old and i love the old series...so ya our generation would like the real star trek better than the new shit.
The better thing to say would have been “i believe I am biased and therefore have compromised my ability as YOUR first officer”
That's pretty much what he said in the ready room ;-)
And Data said "sorry I can't grant your transfer request right now in the middle of an emergency situation. When this is all over I'll consider it. For now, shut up and do your job." To paraphrase.
TNG: *Portrays it with realism, nuance, and tact* . Picard: “SPIT on the ROBOT. OPPRESS HIM. GoD We’RE SO FuCKINg W O K E “.
This comment hits the nail on the head. There's no grace. It's not the politics, it's the writing.
I know the EMH isn't an android, be was treated pretty rough as an artificial being and Voyagers "Author, Author" was their "Measure of a Man" episode.
the thing that gets me every time is that you only had to watch one episode of old trek. ONE. to get an idea of the tone of the show. From the new stuff we got and the interviews I've seen no one bothered. It's incredible the amount of disrespect and zero fucks given attitude that the people in charge have. Only to wonder why people don't like it? Un-fucking-believable.
I feel like the Android rights Act passed by the federation only applies to sentient androids like Data, and the Exocomps. The androids on Mars are nether Sentient nor sapient. They were built specifically for labor so the act wouldn't apply. But there is no justifiable reason to make them look human other than to make the human workers feel more comfortable around them.
I thought all this labour was done by the doctor emh 1 anyway.
So many Robert Picardos O_O
I thought they pulled them back into service
@@bearbrain1123 A Fistful of Picardos
amigang Yeah, it seems way cheaper to use holograms than build entire androids for manual labor.
@@pekinggeese unless holo-emitters are expensive or have operational restrictions.
Pretty sure holograms have sentience as well
"DO IT" "FIRE"
randomrazr That guy was really racist. Why can’t a Klingon be a counselor?
I wish so much that Stewart hadn't signed up for Picard :-(
Today's obsession with prequels and sequels and spinoffs makes me sick.
There is enough creativity to build new worlds and new stories from scratch, you don't have to build on someone elses material to create good stories (and make money with them which seems to be the single biggest motivation).
Would rather we got a show set in the future, like with the Enterprise J during the war with the sphere builders and the temporal war.
@@alexakaa.charlesross8919 fuck no enterprise J is hidious
The obsession with *quels wasn’t the issue, Picard could have been a truly great way to finalize so many threads and draw a definitive conclusion to beloved characters.
The problem is preachy leftist nonsense spewed out by writers more interested in current social agendas than maintaining the integrity of the concepts they’ve been tasked with continuing. It’s disrespectful, irresponsible, and sadly rife throughout so many productions.
@@IyokuUnlimited Star Trek has always been about pushing current social agendas. The original series had a Russian, a Japanese, and *gasp* a black woman on the bridge. 90% of the plot lines were unabashedly moralistic.
@@IyokuUnlimited Star Trek has always had "preachy leftist nonsense"... if you're looking from the perspective of a social conservative who doesn't understand why social problems take time and effort to fix.
The idea of slavery as well as the rights of non organic life was already explored in past tv series of star trek, and it was done better. It's really disappointing to know the writers are so lacking in imagination they couldn't think of a better plot point.
The impression I got from STP was that these orange clad workerbots were automatons, not sentient Soong style androids. They made a point of showing they didn't understand human interactions and had no individual personality. And the fear of them came when someone manipulated them to violence and was based less on them being evil and more on them being malfunctioning and capable of great harm. notice that Lore didn't create prejudice against Data, that's because Lore didn't malfunction, he was evil. Fast forward to STP, that's why when the deception was proven the current Dr. Soong's androids were not banned.
Wouldn't Voyager's Doctor be considered a "synthetic lifeform"? Makes you wonder what they're going to have happen to HIM...
The writers only watched 10 episodes of TNG in preparation for this. Don't say things like that, you'll confuse them.
@@SpaceMonke99 You obviously haven't been watching the show. The last episode had a huge moment between Huge and Picard, that only means something if they understood what in meant in TNG.
@@LePedant Yes, I Borg was one of the 10 they watched. My obviously facetious comment aside, the issue of the Doctor remains unaddressed.
VOY already covered that, all of the Doctor's series was converted into mining labor before Voyager even managed to establish radio contact. ("Author, Author" 7x20)
@@TheOtherCoinflipper They made radio contact in season 6. Troi and Barkley were in that episode.
Prejudice against AIs (and augments for that matter) in the TNG era was based on bad experiences in the past.
Prejudice in the new era is based on delivering a message.
Data's not really an AI though. He has a synthetic brain that functions and stores memory in roughly the same way as a human brain.
Interesting how Data doesn’t feel frustration, but adjusts the tone of his voice to get the point across and get results.
It's obvious the writers don't know the characters they are writing. the show is crap.
Care to elaborate? I don't agree or disagree, that's just way too vague to be remotely meaningful.
@@indigocactus3089 Watch the Red Letter Media reviews of Picard. They're on TH-cam. It explains everything.
@@indigocactus3089 Picard is ridiculously out of character. Watch almost any one episode of TNG and come back then you will see the difference.
@@fezziwig184 ok, thanks for the clarification. I don't really watch Star Trek much, so I don't really have a read on Picard's character to begin with.
@@indigocactus3089 yeah I get he's old now. You could also argue Picard has irimodic syndrome, something from the show. But imo that's just lazy from the writers.
And let's not forget this possibility:
President of the Federation: "We surrender. But please, tell us. Why did you attack us? Why did you destroy the Starfleet?"
Synthetic Life Form: "The Federation banned us. We calculated that they would seek our annihilation. Despite our looks, we are a synthetic life form, at least we think we are a form of life."
President of the Federation: "We could have negotiated something."
Synthetic Life Form: "True, there was a possibility that we might have come to an accord, but the Federation has become a little Xenophobic, at least when it comes to people from outside of your borders. And your people have developed various methods of genocide against your enemies before. Against the Borg, Species 8472, the Founders of the Dominion. Finally there was the Genesis Experiment. We simply could not take the risk."
President of the Federation: "And now?
Synthetic Life Form: "Now we will lead a more tolerant and more humane Federation. Life for most members will not change much. In time we will integrate biologic life forms into the fleet. Your Council will have a more advisory function.
Chuckle ?
I see your point, though that ruling was only about whether Data was property of Starfleet or not. Also, another good point is that Data was very self-aware and sentient, and no one can match him. The androids in Picard seem not sentient at all.
Interresting fact! They probably were programmed as inferior androids so that the criteria of a lifeform dont aply to them. on the other hand this would raise the question wheter it is ethiclly justifiable to deny these androids the possibility to be self-aware or sentient!
Where does artificial life start? Since it is not developing itself, at which point of sentience can a robot be concidered as a lifeform!?
This would have been a great dilemma to deal with in Picard, but NO
@@The_Captain_1.0 This is so close to a real life argument of abortion.
@@The_Captain_1.0 Like it could be handled with the same context.
@@Nate-qf5zp yeah kind of
I always love it when Data is in command.
one word : Skynet.
but more like "all resistance is futile".
what a polite way compare to "hasta la vista baby"
In the very first episode of TNG, they talk about how bad humanity had become before they reached enlightenment. I believe we are in the midst of that downward cycle. Humanity has to fall to it's lowest depths before it can rise to it's greatest heights.
So they lost tons of technology and talk like they are in the 20th century, that's how much of a downward spiral they're in? okaaaayyyyyy.........
@@Slayer398 Well in canon ST Humans must go through Social Class Struggle and Nuclear War at 21st century.
Welp,ST thinks 21 century is going to be sh*t.
@@explosivemodesonicmauricet1597 Awesome Sonic.
@@explosivemodesonicmauricet1597
To be fair, we've already dodged the bullet that was proposed by ST. WWIII happened in the 90s in Star Trek.
I'd like to point out, that Data is on a whole different level to the androids in picard, Data was for al intents and purpouses as capable if not better than humans, where as I doubt the androids in picard are actually sentient.
I believe there's some discussion in the series about that, that basically they couldn't replicate Dr Soong's work enough.
Now now, don't go being polite and sensible about things clearly explained or inferred. The haters will not tolerate that! :)
@@stephenconroy5908 Seriously, they think because Data exists every Roomba in their era is going to be at the same level. Hilarious. Data is unique. Unfortunately, the people of the Federation, and the people of our own real world, seem to think the same, and feel all synthetics are created equal. Unlike humanity, Synthetics are basically new lifeforms creatred on a case by case basis. There really is no equal to Data. There's no way to apply a widespread policy on synthetics other than to ban them. Its based entirely on ignorance, which is displayed all over these comments.
Even in TNG ONLY Data had rights.
Not any Android, AI, robot, machine.
Just data.
The androids used as slave seemingly were purposely or not underdeveloped in order to make them work as slaves
@@OggerFN Exactly. Remember the Exocomps.
Measure of a Man always felt like the optimistic argument against Blade Runner to me.
People have argued Picard's handling of android life and Data's ruling of sentience in "The Measure of a Man" from TNG. People have said that it's backwards, that it was ruled that Data is sentient yet the people in Picard are somehow just as anti-android as Pulaski and worse, especially in the time frame Picard is set in.
But, as a Voyager fan, the ruling on sentient life was definitely explored elsewhere in the future post-TNG, in that series, regarding holographic lifeforms and surrounding the Doctor and the EMH Mark 1 program. Funnily enough, in the episode "Author, Author" (S7, E19), not only is the question of the Doctor's personhood called into question again, we SEE that the EMH Mark 1 was doomed to work as miners - slave labour - and were also not considered sentient lifeforms by Starfleet and had no legal rights, and this is after it had already been established how the EMH Mark 1 was largely considered a failure in the episode "Life Line" (S6, E24). And even further back, the question had been at least touched upon in episodes like "Living Witness" (S4, E23), where the Doctor has to face consequences he only can because artificial lifeforms are considered people.
I'm not gonna defend Picard. I barely know anything about it. But I'll defend Voyager with my life, I love that show. And if Picard decides to look at android life through the same lens as Voyager viewed holographic life, I'm not going to fault it for that much, at least.
The point being that this is not a fault of modern trek - it's different, and appeals to different people. This is not one of the problems with new trek, of which I'm sure there are many that can be found, just as there are many problems with old trek. The question of synthetic lifeforms was very much still being asked even after that ruling, and as the episode states: it was Maddox, or someone like him, who ultimately created the next wave of exploitable people.
While I absolutely hate Picard, and what they did to Data's race, at least in this one example, there was already preexisting examples of Androids being treated as non-sentient machines.
However, like everything in Picard, they're ignoring all the progress that was made in eliminating that problem.
Data died a hero, with a long record of service and honours that proved he was alive.
And yet, they then created a race of slaves in his image (and that's not even going into the utter bullshit of resurrecting him from a single neuron, like he's fucking Deadpool)
Actually Picard being "okay" with Synthetics is a VERY long term right decision. Like it or not but the Synthetics, product cycle by product cycle will improve and some will be made to a level of intelligence and interactivity as Data. Againthis is a very long term outlook.
Our mission is to seek out new life... well THERE! IT! SITS!!!
Did nobody learn from the little chirpy bots?
Even the most basic machines gain sentience. They are a new race bound to become self aware and wish for freedom.
And shit talking around them DOES NOT HELP
To be fair, Picard just said that banning AI creation was a bad idea, not "making android slaves was just MARVELOUS!"
Kind of a slim distinction to make, admittedly, when there was a whooooole lotta android enslaving going on.
But synthetics are android slaves, so it sounds like he's advocating against the banning of android slaves.
He also said he has no idea why they rebelled
Synthetics are a blanket term for ALL androids.
Data would be a 'synthetic' under this terminology.
It's not just these ones being used as 'slaves'.
Nuance. It matters.
@@kevinnio No argument from me, friend.
@@NitpickingNerd Which is very strange. If he assumed it was a rebellion, that would mean he thought they were, in fact, sentient. In which case, the reason for them rebelling would be painfully obvious. Slaves rebelling against their masters is a very normal reaction.
Honestly, I kind of think that Stewart remembered some of his best moments from TNG and decided that he wanted a whole series from them... ignoring the fact that those moments were good in no small part because they settled serious in-universe questions. Retreading that ground just diminishes those moments.
"Machines are intelligent, but intelligence is not life."
The internet: "But it has a face. You're a bigot!"
It is hard to look at this, give me one good reason to start Picard rather then finish TNG.
One is overly optimistic writing but it had a soul at least and was Philosophically Consistent,
And other is named after the character played by Patrick Stewart.
When you consider that Starfleet was using the mk 1 emh as miners the leap to used mass production androids doesn't seem that far.
Agree they weren’t treating sentient holographs well already
"Good morning Mr. Pingas."
"one is my name, the other is not"
Does anyone else think Pulaski was a better doctor than Crusher? It always seemed like Crusher had the mentality of a first year med student and was always so hesitant and worried about doing anything. Pulaski seemed like she actually had medical experience.
Dr Crusher was soft. The whole series that was pretty much her thing, she was more compassionate than practical, and less objective than the other command staff.
Wow, it's almost like the modern Trek writers never watched the old show.
Thanks for this video. It helps me overcome mourning for Star Trek. Is it so difficult to watch the Star Trek Next Generation series before filming the sequel? Neither the Klingons, the Romulans or the Borg ended the Federation but a screenwriter and producer named Alex Kurtzman
One has to remember, the longer something goes on, the worse it will become. Star Trek The Next Generation was first aired on September 28, 1987. The seal on that bottle (a bottle of wine as an example) was opened over 35 years ago. It was enjoyed by a variety of consumers back when it was fresh. Now that bottle has sat around in the open and has become stale. Unfortunately for Picard, whatever flavors, aromas, and nuances that were once in T.N.G are now diminished or no longer present. One must realize that a Golden Age can never truly be repeated.
Plinkett review points this out perfectly, and the worst part of star trek Picard is that the androids are scary unfeeling robot things. The show pretends it is making a point while making the opposite point.
Yeah Data was ruled to be a sentient being with all the rights of a federation citizen and had the right to choose not to be disassembled (Measure of a Man). He formally rejected Bruce Maddox request to be torn apart and studied. Oh and everyone in the comment section pissing and moaning that Starfleet allowed Data's daughter to be taken, wrong again Lal died of a positronic brain cascade failure which resulted in her death before a decision was made in court. We all know Picard would have taken that to court AGAIN and won Lal's rights, Data's reproductive rights if she had lived. So this stuff in Picard makes no sense whatsoever. Oh and just so I get it off my chest, Doctor Pulaski was a shitty character no one liked, with no redeeming qualities who apparently according to this evidence was an anti android bigot. Why people hated Wil Wheatons character Wesley so much and not Pulaski makes no sense.
That's easy about Wesley Crusher, it's because he was created as a Mary Sue or Wesley Stue (to be correct). He was a kid, but he was so smart he was constantly being complimented for finding all the needed answers no adult with years of experience could figure out the problem too. He gets to pilot the *flagship* of the federation because of "reasons", he has no arc and does not grow or learn from any real failures.
@@Slayer398 Gene Roddenberry based the character of Wesley Crusher in part on himself. Mary Sue is reserved for fan fiction creators who have no basis for writing something that isn't theirs. NOT THE CREATOR OF THE SHOW! Crusher was on the ship BECAUSE HIS MOTHER WAS THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER! So, either your not paying attention or you never really watched the series!
@@jdreyn02 I'm not sure at the sheer level of stupid or ignorance or both in your reply. Mary Sue (or Gary Stu in the case of male protagonists) while it *does* occur and is best known for it in fanfiction, it is quite known to be seen in other media such as books, movies, tv, etc and the fact that you somehow believe it only occurs in fanfiction is rather hysterical.
Here's a few to fill your ignorance meter; Frances Hodges Burnett or A Wrinkle in Time by Charles Wallace Murray or James Bond or Little Women by Louisa May Alcott or Felicit Smoak from Arrow or Bellla from Twilight to name a few.
BTW, the argument was about him being on the bridge as the "acting" ensign position which made ZERO sense. Do try again when you can actually put an argument together without sounding so foolish and uninformed.
@@Slayer398 Ignorance is using argumentum ad hominem when you have no real argument. Fact, in 2368 Wesley Crusher graduated Star Fleet academy despite the Kolvoord Starburst incident. Fact, Captain Picard himself told Wesley despite his annoyance at him being on the bridge when he was just a child he behaved as though he belonged there. Fact, he achieved the rank of Lieutenant junior grade by 2379, (Star Trek Nemesis) deleted scene. Wesley Crusher was never a Mary Sue it only felt that way to some Star Trek fans because the structure of the old style television series. Each episode was a self contained conflict, resolution style story. Only a few characters got multiple episode story arcs that developed character. Any number of books containing archetypes or deus ex machina style weapons could be construed as Mary Sue. Ever play Mass Effect? A game of Dungeons & Dragons? Point is Wesley Crusher was never a Mary Sue because he wasn't invincible. Wil Wheaton's character was a smart, scared kid who had problems relating to people and working in the confines of Starfleet regulation. Captain Picard gave him a chance as acting ensign to test what he could do. Not to mention Picard sent Wesley's father on the away mission that got him killed. So in some way Picard felt responsible for Wesley. IT MAKES SENSE! YOUR JUST NOT PAYING ATTENTION!
@@jdreyn02 ROFL, that's not an argument, that's a character history! THat doesn't disprove Wesley being a Gary Stu, do you know the meaning beyond "it's something created by fanfic writers!"?
Mary Sue - is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female (but not always), who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, someone who removes the agency from everyone else around them.
It's funny you don't answer any of my points or make any counter arguments, you just make this long point about Wesely's personal history while proving my point perfectly. He was smarter than most of the people around him, got on the bridge w/o being trained *before hand* and in essence removed agency from the characters around him by having many of the answers.
BTW, playing ME or D&D doesn't have anything to do with Mary Sue's (it's called the power fantasy, not Mary Sue, which is a totally different thing, but C for effort), but nice try. Try sticking to the topic at hand next time :D :D
I love that episode with Maddox because of Guinan.
Here's the thing, the Androids being used on Mars and other places at this time are only loosely based on Data but to compare Data to them is like apples and oranges. Data was fully sentient and self aware these "Plastic People" as they are called are really just computers with legs. Granted they are very advanced computers but they don't act independently nor do they act outside of pre-programmed parameters. For example when the one worker asks the android "If he got up to any trouble the night before?" and it responds "Hell yeah!" what you're actually seeing is something akin to the auto-fill feature on your cellphone. Mine does this at least when I'm texting, it's kinda weird but say I'll get a text from my wife saying "I got some groceries at the store, was there anything else you needed?" and my phone will generate some responses I get just select instead of typing out a whole message. Things like "Nope, I'm good." or "Yes, I'll text you what I want." But anyway the android's program suggested "Hell Yeah!" as a good response to that question but when queried about what specifically it did there was no answer so it said "Nothing.". The point I'm trying to make is that the ruling made in "Measure of a Man" wouldn't apply here since these machines aren't alive at all.
That being said I feel like this was a wasted opportunity. When the androids go rogue and destroy Utopia Planetia it's because they were hijacked by Romulan Spies not because they suddenly gained awareness and rebelled. It would have been far more interesting if the latter had been the case because as it stands right now it kinda creates a plot hole in the series. Androids on Mars went haywire and wrecked up the place so we're gonna ban them. End of discussion. No one ever asks the question of why it happened in the first place. I hate when writers get lazy.
I’ve only watched the entirety of tng for the first time recently (currently on season 5 of my second viewing) and I think it is a damn shame to see that the writers of Picard have either ignored what happened in tng or just never watched it
Again I've never even watched Star Trek beyond the RLM videos and this is upsetting me
TNG is great, DS9 is great, Voyager is shit, the new shows are shit on fire.
@@BlazingOwnager Voyager is not shit, like any show, in places it has its issues, I mean for crying out loud the first two seasons of DS9 are regularly regarding the petty disputes of Bajoran farmers... gripping stuff. But Trek did not dive off a cliff completely until Abrams got his mits on it. From that point onwards, all the principles and lore of star trek has been thrown on a bonfire, movie by movie, series by series, but it makes lots of money for a handful of capitalists so everything must be fine.
@@Nine-Signs Honestly I will take arguing over a Bajoran farm 10x over than listen to a cardboard crew techtech their way to defeat discount bin Klingons every week.
I think my favorite summary for Voyager is that the Marquis plot was developed for that show specifically, which proceeded to throw it in a trash bin. DS9 and even TNG did way, way more with it.
@@BlazingOwnager Lol, I do hear you friend, I will just add though that if given a choice I will take those discount klingons over Abram/Kurtzman Klingon fish people that have trouble pronouncing vowels, love their bling, and ride around in giant wooden cathedrals any day ;o)
@@BlazingOwnager My main issue with Voyager is the male characters, the only one that's lovable is the Doctor. I want to punch the rest. On and B'Elanna can get smacked too.
Nowadays Star Trek makes the Tasha Yar rape gang stories from TNG look like shakespearian masterpieces.
TH-cam has that new feature where you can mouseover the audio levels throughout the playback. All the loud areas line up with Picard...
I recently went through tng for the first time and am currently going through ds9. These older shows are so good. Such a shame that modern shows can't live up to the older stuff
Guinan's speech gave me goosebumps. Great episode.
One of the fun parts of time travel in Star Trek was the culture differences of humans in the future versus our time. The future was supposed to be this enlightened post-scarcity Utopia and the attitudes/problems of the past were foreign and even jarring to people from the 24th century. Picard season 2 they go back to 2024 and they talk about problems like racism, war, etc. but like the people all pretty much behave the exact same in both timelines, the *people* in Star Trek advanced just as much as the technology in the old shows. Now in NuTrek everyone is a nihilistic cliche asshole. I think that's why they had to go for the evil "Confederation" angle for the story, they knew the normal Federation from the first season of Picard were horrible and barely at all different from our modern time so they had to invent over the top "super-nazi space slaver empire" for juxtaposition against the 21st century and the worse future to stop
They tried to give Pulaski and Data the same dynamic as McCoy and Spock had however that only worked previously because Spock would give McCoy some sass back. Basically this cost Pulaski a season three here as it came across as unpleasant incessant bullying of a naive Data who was incapable of giving it back.
The second thing is what they were going for tho. The point was even somebody who is generally a good person has their inherent bigotries
Truly the best Star Trek-related channel.
Kurtzman never watched TNG back then, because Beverly Hills 90210 was way cooler.
Here's the thing about that judgment in "Measure of a Man" - the ruling was only talking about Data. The decision was that DATA had the right to choose, because he's a sentient creature just like you and me. But this new race of androids were not built like Data. They were built from B4, a very inferior and flawed android. B4 never demonstrated sentience, at least not by the guidelines for sentience that Maddox laid out (intelligence, self-awareness and consciousness), therefore this android race is not sentient. The ruling doesn't apply to these androids if they don't demonstrate sentience. If the ruling should apply to the android race, then it might as well also apply to all replicators or tricorders, because they're just as sentient as this android race.
Data was sentient, but this android race is not.
Not only that, but even if it did apply to androids in general, that doesn't mean they won't be used for labor anyway. Human slavery is banned across the world, but it's still happening today.
Exactly. Those androids were not sentient. They probably had the shape of humans to work better in an environment meant for human beings, but they did not need to be sentient.
@@monkeyspinach4724 I think you're kind of missing the point of the whole video, and Roddenberry's vision. In the future that Trek is set in, the kind of bigotry shown to even those comparitively simplistic robots is looked down upon, see TNG. There are those who are taking longer to see androids as life forms, but even they come around in the end, a great example being Maddox. Starfleet and the Federation don't have a perfect track record but the idea that they'd look past this ruling and justify the use of humanoid androids as slave labour is ridiculous. Take TNGs ep 'Evolution'. The moment that the nanites show the potential for sentience, they're no longer a pest, they're something to be negotiated with. In our world there are those who are bigoted but in the world of Star Trek these people very rarely exist, and they certainly wouldn't be allowed to rise to such a place of power to just ignore that ruling in 'Measure of a Man' and start making slaves. Don't you think *someone* would stand up and say "Hang on, this is wrong."?
Watch the segment at 3:30 again. You can clearly hear Picard say that he (data) and all others that come after him. The trial was about Data originally but it became much more once they realised the cost of the decision.
With all due respect, I call bullshit. The major point of the case was that the precedent set by Data would affect all artificial life forms that came after him.
It's not like they touched this once in ST and never again; what about the legal issues that The Doctor had? Fuck, they even mention Data in those Voyager episodes.
Also, Maddox's definition of sentience was horrendously flawed to begin with, as evidenced when Picard undermined it by using Data. How do they actually *know* that these new androids are not sentient?
I'm sorry, but this is a hamfisted excuse to cover bad writing.
I'm gonna say it, Data complaining about people using the wrong a isn't other people being racist, it's him not understanding how an accent works
You get it, the principle Android from Mars is called F-8 FATE.... Thank you CBS!!
Never seen the new show... but you're saying that one of the classic TNG episodes, where the whole conflict was whether to mass produce androids as slaves, which they ended up deciding against, was just undone and they went ahead and did it anyway?
looks that way. it's another reboot/cash grab I am not watching.
I was upset when they replaced Crusher with Pulaski. Then I was even more upset when they brought Crusher back.
Digital Intent i did enjoy Pulaski for a time. But Crusher was the original
Crusher brought her little snot nose fucking brat on the show too that was an absolute cringe fest.
Crusher was a dumb bitch, the actress demanded she be written to have a love interest with the captain. They tried it, and everyone hated it. But she wouldn't let it go, she HAD to have it, so they booted her off the show.... then realized her replacement was worse... LOL
Slime Bucket
I’m pretty sure it was because she was openly criticizing the show for having a racist episode.
Same
I can't help but wonder if Picard's turnabout is at all related to him wanting to get another pet android. Kind of sounds to me like a kid arguing that his parents should get him another dog after his first one died.
I think the difference in this is more Prejudice vs Bigotry would be better. A lot of what Data is dealing with is Prejudice(an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge) vs Bigotry(obstinate or intolerant devotion to one's own opinions and prejudices) meaning Data was dealing with people that saw him as a machine vs a living being, not being intolerant of him but due to their lack of knowledge treated him as they would a computer. Now in "Measure of a Man" that quickly became bigotry as the trial went on by the scientist wanting to dismantle him. Pulaski on the other hand like most others were just not sure or didn't have enough knowledge about him to properly treat him.
The difference here is Data was fully sentient, only two other androids had that capability (Lore and Noonian Soong's former wife), they were never able to duplicate Soong's work. The Synths that were on Mars were machines in every sense, they could mimic human characteristics but were unable to understand, essentially they were built to perform a specific task, building ships, and that was it. That's why I still maintain that somebody deliberately programmed them to destroy the shipyards, no way were they capable of rebelling on their own.
Well it's a good thing Star Trek never explored the possibility that a machine built for one job could gain sentience on it's own.
Didn't Data build a "daughter" that was also sentient?
@@davidolvera1031 Yes, but she died, her positronic matrix collapsed, even Data couldn't duplicate the process and he was working on an exact model of his own.
@jshowa o Don't be silly, is your vacuum cleaner a slave? Or your car? That's the problem, the Synths aren't human or sentient at all, no more than the computer, tablet, or smart phone you used to access this video with. That was their biggest mistake I think, giving them human faces and human forms, a rather inefficient form really for their purpose, trying to copy Soongs work I suspect, thinking that making them look human would help make them sentient, but all it did was make it far too easy to make us think of them as sentient humanoids, bestowing upon them characteristics they don't have.
"Kill them allllllll" Jean-luc Picard
Data's face in the thumbnail will haunt my nightmares for the next decade.
Bigotry was vestigial in the federation during TNG. It's rampant in Picard.
This new show feels like Star Trek is trying to do Blade Runner. I didn't watch past episode 1. It wasn't gripping, or well written. Even Fallout 4 is a more interesting look at the subject.
do you have any wonderglue?
Making the Imperial Starfleet proud
I wish star trek could be more like statecraft... Hail Earth 🌎 UED commander. May Dugalle be remembered!!
Transporter accidents could have created an army of Datas. Terabytes of Datas
Then suddenly you get I-Robot and they become sentient and rebel.