In my experience as an electrician the weak point in 3 pin plug charging is often the switch on the domestic socket. I would suggest using an unswitched socket if possible, just remember to stop the charge before unplugging it, or if it is switched dont use the switch to stop the charge. Dont use an extension lead if the granny lead wont reach the socket, get a spur installed off the ring main, or a specific radial circuit solely for charging to reach the car. For waterproof sockets you should be able to replace a switched socket fascia with a non switched one eg the BG storm model.
All home EV 'Granny' chargers that connect to a domestic 3 Pin Plug are rated for 10A. This is because, whilst a 3 Pin Socket may well be rated for 13A, that isn't 13A continuous current. If you boil your kettle it'll take 10-13A for a short period of time. But plugging in an EV will mean the car will take 10A / 13A continuously for many hours - maybe 20 hours or more in some cases (my 78kW Polestar 2 LR takes 40 hours to charge to 100% from 0% on a Granny cable but realistically the most I've done is 30% to 90% which took 24 hours.) This continuous load creates a problem as if the home wiring is old and isn't up to standard, people may have loose connections in the back of the socket or other issues such as poorly installed junction boxes, it can stress existing weaknesses in a home's installation & presents a fire risk - this is why they picked 10A rather than 13A for the granny cables. They do warm up quite a bit (my Granny EV charger (Masterplug - I have a Volvo one for the Polestar but I keep a masterplug one in the garage) shows it's current temperature and when charging it pretty much always 45C), and I've seen cheap extension leads that have melted due to someone keeping an EV plugged in for hours on end. So - the 10A limit is for safety reasons. Whilst I'm not as extreme as the eFIXX guys who are very anti 3-Pin plug and clearly wanting to sell a home charger, I have taken all precations possible such as making sure I have a Dedicated EV-Rated charging socket like yourself, with an RCD on the socket and an RCBO on the main fuse for the circuit in the garage where I connect up to. Never use an extension lead (unless you get a specific EV charging rated one from a reputable supplier, which are quite expensive but are available). I do wish I could have a 7kW charger fitted, but my house is rented, I'd need the DNO to move me from a looped supply to a dedicated supply, I'd need an upgraded main fuse (currently 60A) and where my car is parked is ~30m away from my CU which is at the front of the house and my driveway is behind a garage which is behind the back of my house, so I'd need to run a complete new cable in the foundations of the property, across a hard standing yard, and then into the garage. So I'm currently stuck with a 2.3kW Granny cable for the foreseeable future (which doesn't bother me tbh).
True 10A is to keep things cool for long term use but the wiring to a double home socket is rated for 26 amp so no chance of your wiring failing. The fuse in the 13 amp plug and 16/20amp in the consumer unit would trip first before the cables set on fire.
My granny charger is rated from 2-10A. I use it at 10A. I've never felt it get warm. I've left it for 24 hours (EVSE near me was busted). I regularly checked the cabling, the socket and the 3 pin plug for heat. All were at ambient temperature or slightly above. Maybe it depends on the company manufacturer.
@@sang3EtaThat is incorrect. The whole circuit is rated at 13A. You can't pull 26A just because it's a double socket. It would have to be fed from two different circuits and they aren't. The double socket is just for convenience - it doesn't magically increase the rating of the circuit.
EV extension cables are not approved for use in Europe or the UK if you're referring to the type 2 to type 2 extensions. You may be able to buy them but they are not approved. You're only option is to buy an EVSE with a long cable like the Tesla UMC or have a longer cable fitted to an existing EVSE or buy a long type2 to type 2 and an EVSE that has a type 2 socket.
the maximum rated CONTINUOUS draw from a BS1363 socket is 10A, not 13A. Hence UK EVSE equipment is usually limited to 10A, and should not be increased beyond that. If you are plugging it into a ring main as opposed to a spur (as you're doing in the kitchen there presumably) preferably you would reduce it to something like 6A to avoid overheating.
I’m a very low mileage user so I charge my car from the 3pin plug all the time without any problems. I work shift’s and have solar panels so for most of the year it’s free. When the sun is not giving enough power I just turn the charge down to 5 amp. I know it’s not for most people but for someone like myself who does less than 3000 miles per year it’s perfect 👌
You summed a lot up very well, however there is some stuff I want to add/answer: 1. inclusion of EVSES The adapter used to charge is NOT the charger, but instead the EVSE. The charger is built into the car. EVSEs are commonly not included anymore, however any manufacturer does it different. Here the Tesla UMC1 is shown. Newer Tesla Models don't include the UMC anymore. UMC2 can be bought separately. With many manufacturers you are able to add one in the configurator. If you're planning on using one daily, you can buy something more expensive like a juice booster, which has a thermal sensor in the plug to prevent melting. 2. Amperage Your UMC detects that the adapter for a 13 amp Wall-Plug is connected, and therefore limits it to 10 Amps, since the maximum long-duration rating is 10 Amps. If you connect an adapter for a different plug, for example the blue CEE16, it will enable more power, in that case 16 Amps. 3. calculation The calculations regarding the charge price, that you've done are roughly correct. There are some aspects that you haven't taken into account! The charging losses differ from the charging method. Charging with a lower amperage will result in higher losses, which weren't accounted in any of the calculations. The charging-loss for a Tesla Model 3 is on average 15.2% on 2.6kW AC (plug) and 7.7% on 11kW AC (wallbox). This shows, how large the impact is. I hope that I could clarify some things.
Your calculations are fundamentally wrong. 5 miles per hour is wrong at a 2.4kW charge rate. Should be around 10 assuming 4 miles per kWh so your costs are around half of what you are saying!
@@ISuperTed Yep, my supercharger usage is much higher (36% this year ) but that's mostly boosted by European roadtrips. It is what it is. Still easy enough to provide a bit of thought to the journey and combine as much of that with sleeping and meal times. My best observation is that a run to my local Costco to fuel my classic car is 12 minutes each way, 30 mins in the car park queue for fuel and then that elusive 3 minute fill. That hour is the same time it takes us to charge from Calais to Switzerland, two stops which we use for a short breakfast (15 mins) and a longer lunch (45 mins). Apparently such larking about is impossible. I'm told I should stick to local shops only. 😁
Way to go Dave. I drive 63 miles a day (usually) and charge 8 hours a night on my granny charger, no problems, IF I need more once a month maybe I call into my local. tesla open to all chargers!
I run my MG on a granny charger. I am a low annual mileage driver and my rules are only draw a maximum of 10 amps, check the plug temperature (should only be slightly warm to the touch), change the 13 amp fuse for a new one if the plug ever gets beyond warm, I only charge when we are around the house and not sleeping (unfortunately missing out on the cheap rate). Interestingly the car only indicates a 1.7/1.8 kWh charge into the battery. The external waterproof socket is on a 30 amp cable spur off a very heavy duty cable ring main. No problems so far and I've never felt the need to get a dedicated charger installed.
Does your charger have a variable setting. The one that came with my Ioniq 5 is variable from 6A - 12A, it came preset at 6A. When set at 10A I get around 2.2kW of charging, this seems to work as the voltage isn't quite 240V, the current isn't quite 10A and the power factor is around 0.98. I would have thought that you should be able to get more than 1.8kW.
@@paulweston1106 I get the same on my MG4 at 1.9-2.0kW the EVSE reports a 9.5A output, which in theory should give 2.28kW so I am guessing 0.2kW is losses along the way.
Thanks for a sensible video, Dave. It is the best one on home charging I have seen so far. We live in Australia and are waiting for an electric car without a sunroof to become available. I had a Landrover Discovery with several windows and a sunroof, which nearly cooked my brain in our summers. The windows were useless to us, so I insulated them all. It is crazy in hot countries to have all that glass.
Got a new M3LR 3 months ago, first EV. 6000 miles so far all on the granny charger, no issues 10A and works absolutely fine. I was going to get a 7kw, but after 1600 miles a months I’ve never even used a supercharger. Plug never gets warm, even after 8 hours it’s not even warm to the touch. Can’t see me ever needing to spend money on 7kw. And the 1500 miles a month costs me £22 😀👌
OK, model 3 owner here, LOLing at your litle skits on opening your charge port on the S compared to 3s and later. But the big rear seat reveal genuinely floored me. I had no idea the S had this trick up its sleeve.
Thanks, Dave. I'm always interested on how things are on the other side of the Pond. L1 (granny) chargers in the US are 110-120V and 12A max (on a 15A circuit). Now that's slow! 240V makes a big difference and most reasonable EV owners put in a L2 220-240V outlet to charge their EVs. Often times an electric dryer outlet is repurposed for this duty, especially if one runs their dryer on natural gas as we do (it's common here). However, while we can sometimes opt for different rate plans from our utility, we can't choose another provider. We pay $0.60/kWh on peak here (4pm-9pm) and $0.24/kWh off peak (rest of the time) with our provider (SoCal Edison). And I do wish our outlets had on/off switches sometimes!
Some socket have a magnet build in, this magnet will close a small circuit to allow 13A. Continiously 13A might get hot and crack the socket, so stick with that 10A. 😊
I love, and always change my MG4 Trophy from an industrial extension plugged into the garage (it's on a separate consumer unit to the house). It's a shame my leccy cupboard isn't big enough for a smart meter to take advantage of cheaper tariffs. Still, 21p per kW is so much cheaper than dirty ICE fuel 😊
I just changed to Tomato energy and get between 10 and 12 at night for 13p kw/h and 5p kw/h between 12 and 6am which gives me 25% of the battery or 65miles of range for pennies, also the standing charge is only 40p a day as opposed to 60 odd pence from all the other suppliers
the 13amp fuse get hot if have it on too long and so can over time kill the fuse. it is best to just run for 2 hours at a time or day. by doing 10 A it stops heating the fuse up just a little slower. and keeps not taking off the full 13A heating up the cable etc. you do miss out that fuel is not the only thing for petrol it needs service parts sparks etc which cost and need changing every 10k so you have the cost of this service / how often you have to do it to add per a mile. you dont have that in an ev, No need to do a service
Really well explained! I have a Kia E Niro 64Kwh, and I only have a 3 pin charger (sadly I can't get a 7Kw charger installed) and I have never had an issue as I drive less than 30 miles per day and my 3 pin charger gets me 35 mines range per night on my Octopus Go tariff!
Not an ev driver but actively looking at getting one as my next car. However on the subject of cheap overnight charging my basic maths worked out that the increased day tariff on many ev tariffs wipes out any savings gained unless you have a home storage battery you might as well stick to standard tariffs
The end you plug on to the Tesla ‘granny’ charger tells it the max current to allow. For continuous supply in uk sockets that’s 10a. If you connect a schucko end to the Tesla granny it will do 13a, there are two commando ends available for 16 or 32a. Meaning on right supply with right socket you can get 7kw through your granny. Very versatile.
The charge rate is set by charger via pilot wire in type 2 socket. The onboard charger looks at pilot wire for charge rate. Granny charger are set to 10 amps max. Wall charger can be set to 3.6 kw to 7kw depending on supply and cable size. I use my granny charger with my solar. Solar systems are around 4kw 16 amps max so 7 kw charger would draw 32 amps. 16 amps from solar and 16 amps from grid.
In Norway using the emergency charger as a permanent solution is not legal anymore. The Schuko socket is not designed for sustained load like this and can overheat. There is also some kind of protection missing to prevent backfeed or something, not sure exactly what the term is and what it is all about.
I've managed for a year on the 13A socket in my garage, but I'm getting a charger next week. Well, charger, solar panels, battery, the lot. The EV is clearly a gateway drug. First, being retired, my usage is irregular. Some days nothing, lots of days one or two short runs, sometimes up to 100 miles round trip to go to the theatre. The problem arises if I have two long trips on consecutive days. For example one Friday I got back from the 100-mile theatre trip at almost midnight, and had to leave again at nine on the Saturday morning. There wasn't enough time to get a safe amount into the battery for the second day's driving. (In fact I had had another trip on the Friday morning so didn't even start the 100-mile run full.) I plugged the car in whenever I was in the house between trips, but it was still tight. However, there are destination chargers in the car park I use for the theatre, and three and a half hours on one of those made all the difference. 40p/kwh but worth it. I could have stopped at a rapid charger on the way home, or even the 50kw rapid five minutes walk from my house, but hey, February and midnight. I was finding that the time it would take to replace charge used was deterring me from impulse trips. And there isn't always a destination charger where I'm parked, so the threat of a midnight visit to a rapid was always there. And I have a huge south-facing roof which seems a bit of a crime not to cover in solar panels, so I decided to go the whole hog. There is another point. There is a time when you do have to charge the whole way in one go on AC. It's recommended, at least every six months, to let the car see the bottom of the charging cycle then charge all the way to 100% and balance. Keeps the GOM honest, which is especially important with LFP batteries I believe. I'm doing that this weekend. I haven't charged for over a week. I have 28 miles to do tomorrow morning and currently 42 miles on the GOM. Hopefully I wont run out half a mile from home! Once I get home it will take until mid afternoon on Saturday to do the full long charge. It would only take about eight hours on a home charger, so I won't have to worry about finding a clear day when I don't need the car in future. Why don't I just leave this one till after the charger is installed? Long story, but I want to do it before I set off on a long road trip in ten days time, and I can't see any opportunity to run it to >10% in the mean time. And I'd rather get to grips with the Zappi gradually!
Great one Dave, the figures are a great idea to show how it can work. It is nice to know that we have an option to fall back on if we ever need to add a bit of charge away from home and no EV chargers are nearby.
@@mowcowbell el sistema americano es pobre para cargas en el hogar. El europeo está mejor diseñado para estos servicios. Si hacemos una pequeña reforma a sistema trifasico se pueden cargar en el hogar a 11 KWh.
Good video as always. Don't forget the issue of off peak rates are now dependent on the make of charger or car. Several chargers aren't compatible or makes of car. You end up not being able to use off peak & changing your charger is a nightmare, I've spent 6 months trying to get a company to come & replace a charger rather than do a new install.
Some do require specific devices to take advantage of cheaper rates throughout the day. Others give you a rate similar to Economy 7 so it is fixed at that time of night no matter what devices you use: ev charger or washing machine. The catch is a slightly higher day time rate and therefore make sense if you can shift about 60% of the combined domestic and EV charging use to those night time hours.
Hi dave iv just purchased a Volvo ex30 no off street parking but have applied for planning permission to see if possible.but planning a commando granny charger im with OVO which would be 7p but dont think ovo recognized this type of charger to get this 7p rate is there any other power company that you would recommend for use of this charger to get a good charge rate per kw ?
I did not buy the Tesla charger as I wanted a detachable cable. It can be easily replaced if it gets damaged and I can take it with me to use where a cable it not provided.
I charge at work most of the time (as it’s free). I couldn’t have a home charger fitted, but I had an outside 13 amp socket fitted (EV rated) which I use occasionally. I put my Volvo XC40 on charge for 12 hours if I need a boost at home, which will give me approx 30%.
Worth a NOTE You are NOT to charge EVs from standard UK 13A socket! These are not built for 20 hours of constant 10A curtent. There are special 13A sockets that you CAN use and these have to be marked EV on the back of the sockets. It us unlikely that your old kitchen socket or standard external socket is suitable for EV charging! Using these will inttoduce potencial fire risk etc...
I'd caution you to check your home insurance before charging an EV from a standard 13 amp socket. It all depends on your insurer, and your current policy - which is why it’s best to tell them! And before you ask, no I'm not involved in the insurance business, so I have no axe to grind.
I'm having a level 2 charger plug installed soon because the local power company will pay for it. In the meantime I've been using the 120VAC plug that came with the combination Level 1 / Level 2 charger my VW ID.4. It adds about 40 miles of range overnight. It's plugged into an exterior weather protected GFI outlet so I'm not worried about burning down the neighborhood. And yes, I understand the implications of continuous use but also understand the charging curve and the fact EV's don't (can't) draw the maximum possible amount of current for the duration of charging. When I plug in my EV the street lights in the neighborhood don't go dim. Between that and three years free charging at Electrify America stations I couldn't imagine ever going back to an ICE vehicle. I'm also coming up on enough miles when I would need to do my first $100.00 oil change that I won't have to do anymore. Between that and the average $250.00/month I'm no longer spending on gas (20MPG) i'm becoming one of those EV evangelists your mother warned you about. Cheers Dave!
I've just spoke to eon over the phone and enquired about the cheap rate, however they cant give the discounted price because I dont have the wall charger installed. Will be checking with octopus energy to see what they can do.
I charge my model 3 at home and use the plug in charger I purchased for my previous EV. I have only used fast chargers three times in 10 months and one of them was a Tesla Supercharger.
One thing that isn’t mentioned is that most utility companies who offer a cheap rate for EV charging, will put the daily unit rate up to compensate their loss.
Great video, thanks. I'm currently waiting for my Tesla to arrive and am considering just using the 3-pin charger as I'm a low mileage driver (probably 15 miles max. per day). I was considering installing an IP rated socket outside, but I believe the mobile charger isn't suitable for use in the rain? Also, most Electricity companies have their cheap tariffs through the night and I'd prefer to not leave a lead hanging out the open window overnight. How are people getting around this issue? Keeping the plug end of the mobile connector inside and dry, but not leaving your house vunerable with a window open.
Are sockets on a "2-Gang DP Cooker switch & 13A DP switched socket" for electric cookers any better than a kitchen standard 13A socket in terms of handling the load of granny charging? Or are they same as any standard 13A socket?
Sorry Dave, your calculation seems to show a consumption of 2.1 mpkWh , my EV's have never used that . Current MGZS has a lifetime average of 3.6, and gets 4.2-4.5 on a summer run. That means on 27p it would be 6.5-7.5 ppm. I get 9p off peak on an old eco7 tariff so that drops to 2.5p +/-. Plus my 7 hours gets me 60 miles a night at that price, so 420 miles a week or 20,000 miles a year, I only do about 7k so only charge a couple of times a week. I have used an older PodPoint wall charger at 3.3 kW, a Leaf and an MG granny each do 10A/2.3 ish kW and they all did the job fine.
I do a thousand miles a week in my model Y. 3 pin set up at home, I just turn it down to 8 amps. This puts at least 100 miles in overnight so I can always reach a supercharger. Over a weekend the car is full and ready for the next week. Just make sure whatever 3 pin set up you use is adequate. The right and preferably new cabling is being used. I have just fitted a 32 amp commando socket for the Tesla lead adapter. Whoosh! Now it charges very quick. It’s fitted with all the correct breakers, cables and earths. You don’t need a home charger….
Question - I have one 20 amp circuit in my garage. Is this an advantage in charging over the standard 10 amp plug? Is it safe to charge an ev overnight in my garage. I'm considering either MG 4 or BYD Dolphin.
Los adaptadores de carga portatiles llegan a 16A. Tu instalación a 20 A es segura pero pon un enchufe adecuado al consumo prolongado que es una carga de vehiculo.
We have a smart fortwo, which is big enough for the two of us, both retired no kids. We charge ours each weekend on the 'granny charger' which gives enough for the week. We very rarely use a public charger, because of the price,only when we have a meal in a restaurant Job done.
Retired Polestar 2 owner. Only use the 3 pin to charge. 8 miles per hour. Frustrated that no mobile signal where I live. No mobile signal = no Smart meter = no EV tariff = no 7p/kW off-peak. Still cheap at £300/yr instead of £3000 for the Volvo XC90.
I plug my granny charger in once or twice a week during cheap rate electricity, midnight to 8am or any time at weekends. When I go to the supermarkets in Spain they all have free chargers and it´s usually more convenient to park in these bays than normal ones. So I pay virtually nothing to drive a super smooth, fast and quiet MG4. I would never go back to a dirty, expensive ICE.
Your outdoor 13amp socket is certainly not up to current regulations. It should be wired with outdoor SWA cable (steel wire armoured), not the basic twin and earth cable that you have in place now.
Some chargers are variable from 6A to 12A, a lot however are fixed at 10A because that is the maximum continuous load that standard UK sockets are rated for. You can go over 10A for short bursts (kettle for example) but if you are running a continuous load you shouldn't go over 10A.
Nobody has yet explained how, if the max continuous is 10A as you and many others state, you can run an electric fan oven 2,400W and three rings on a ceramic hob, 4,200W for several hours. Just asking?
@@davetakesiton I would hope that an electric cooker is on its own circuit with a proper cooker outlet and not just plugged into a standard 3 pin plug socket. It's the standard 3-pin outlet that is rated for 10A continuous load, the circuit should be able to take a higher load. I've seen a 3kW fan heater melt a standard 3 pin socket.
@@davetakesiton You oven does not draw a constant power for a extended period. Once up to temp, it modulates on & off at lower power to maintain temp. Unlike Granny charger which is running at full power all the time till car is charged. As well as comment below.
I find with my granny the plug gets warm on 10a but not on 8a so i have set it to 8.Its rarely used though. Change of topic, I used to have a Volvo estate with two fitted child seats in the back.
Great video Dave, I have to charge a home using a 13amp lead. The Volvo EX30 doesn't come with a "Granny Cable". Renault didn't supply one with my Zoe either. Keep up the informative videos.
Does anyone know what it costs to charge a Tesla 3 for 12hrs at today’s electricity costs please in the UK. At home on a 3 pin plug! I have a guest whose charged their car and I don’t know what to charge them. Thank you for any feed back.
±10% in most areas. At least that's the requirement here in Norway. So it can be 207-253V. Its almost 11am here as I write this and pretty warm so low load on the grid which means 244V at my meter. If its cold and dinner time this can drop to around 230V. My apartment building is less than 50m from the nearby substation so voltages will be higher than 230V. This is so that those furthest away also get a decent voltage.
Hi Dave can I ask what is your recommendation on which make of 3 Pin 13amp granny charger screw fix do one or buy say Hyundai make the blue one you use to use ? thanks in advance for reply
I use my granny charger to charge my M3P overnight. Plug is in the garage, I have to flip the fuses to the cooker and kitchen sockets then press charge on the app. I can then flick the cooker and kitchen sockets back on and it's fine. If I don't do this the RCD kicks in 🤷♂
I have been using a 3-pin set for my PHEV for many years given the size of the battery the charge was never more than 6 hours. I have just got MG4 EV so I am seeing how it is going, thing is I don't have a commute of note so weekdays it is about 10 miles, which is no issue. Weekends may do 50-100 miles on days out so charging is going to be longer I expect. It is hard for me to be able to justify dropping £1,000 on a 'proper' charger setup when the existing setup looks like it should work for me (it is all electrician installed with a 3-pin marked as suitable for EV charging). I did wonder about if it could be straight swapped for a 16A commando which would be a bit faster but still talking £500 for the work, socket and new EVSE.
Something to bear in mind whenever charging on an EVSE whether granny or 7kW: losses. There are losses in the on board charger sometimes up to 15%. Eg. My 3pin plug EVSE puts out 2.2kW but the onboard charger on my EV only charges the battery at 1.9 kW A 7.4kW EVSE translates to 6.5kWh into the battery in one hour. Therefore when I charge at home, I know I will end up spending about 15% more for those lost kWh.
Have you tried using one of those power monitor plugs between the outlet and the EVSE, I am seeing some losses but not as high as 15%. My Ioniq 5 reports 2.2kW when the EVSE is set at 10A.
@@paulweston1106I use a Tapo smart plug that’s how I know the on board charger loses 15% power. It might be that the Ioniq reports what goes into the charger rather than what goes into the battery. For example, on my EV I can see lower numbers for the charging power if I’m sitting in the car with the HVAC on or the battery preheater running. Or maybe the ioniq onboard charger is better.
The 16A and 32A charge rates quoted on the portable chargers will be for three-phase supplies, whereas you'll only be able to get 10A (2.4kW) from a UK domestic socket. Three phase supplies are far more common in domestic premises in Europe than here in the UK, so it's not something the average UK householder will necessarily have come across. Additionally, your outside socket looks to have been a DIY install by somebody! Standard flat Twin+CPC cable is unsuitable for use outdoors due to its lack of UV and mechanical protection. It should ideally be cabled either in HiTuf or SWA. I'd get your electrician to quote to do it properly it next time he's doing some work for you 🙂
I think you're confused - the Tesla UMC is not three phase. The tail for 32A (at least in Australia) is a 3 phase plug but that is because that is the most common plug to carry 32A at things like camping grounds etc. However it is only 230V @ 32A single phase (or 240V depending on where you are). So a maximum of 7kW which is still pretty good but the maximum for 3 phase is 22kW (not that modern Teslas support that - they're mostly 11kW onboard chargers). There are some 3 phase portable units like the Fronius Wattpilot but they are more expensive than most Level 2 EVSE's.
Good evening by the end of August I will have traded my Eclass coupe for an electric EV my choice is a second hand Jaguar I pace. My mileage is ludicrously small in fact I will on average never pay more than 7.5 pence per kwh. My weekly milage is 2 journeys per week golf club, and the weekly shop. So on the night rate 6hours each night I'm really happy
Apparently, EV charging points must be installed in accordance with current UK Electricity Regulations. The UK Electricity Regulations do not allow this unless additional PEN fault or local earthing rod protection is built in to the circuit used for charging. In any event, these chargers usually cause a normal 13Amp circuit plug, socket and wiring to overheat, with risk of melting of insulation and fire, unless the car allows you to set the charging amperage down to a much lower than 13Amp, safe level. Search youtube for professional opinion on this.
Kilo Watts are a unit of power, not speed. KWh are a unit of energy, i.e. power x time = energy. We should really measure energy in Joules, but KWh were created to help Joe Public better visualise energy consumption. A bit odd, but there you go....
I think it is worth mentioning that although I am an Octopus customer, they won't let me charge my 23 reg Hyundai Kona 64kw on a 3 pin plug at a special rate, unless I have a suitable charger installed. Even though my car can be programmed to handle the charge by itself through the app....So I have to use my granny charger and pay the normal rate....It doesn't affect my use as I am retired and don't do many miles, but no saving on the rate itself....Any comments would be welcolme.😗
I think you want "Octopus Go", their original EV tariff, as opposed to "Intelligent Octopus Go". You'll only get 5 hours of the cheaper rate (as opposed to 6), and the rate isn't AS good, but you don't need a compatible car or charger. Hope this helps!
@@Deeje2 Unfortunately no, that won't work, Octopus just told me that even on that tariff, I still need a home charger...So no cheaper rate available unless you spend £1500 + on a home charger, which, in my case, defeats the object.😔
Kia have not supplied granny chargers for several years now. Handbook explains for emergency use only.. Given the regs on wall boxes. Granny chargers should be limited to a dedicated external 32 Amp supply. Not connected to any socket in the house. While you may check the electrics, many do not & may well still be running a house that has not been upgraded for decades. As you say. Precious... Yet will happily charge a car via a granny charger while asleep & many using cheap home extensions, again should not as it negates the thermal protection build into the charger.
What country are you in? Kia and Hyundai supply granny chargers (and normal charger cable) with all new BEVs and PHEVs in Ireland (and always have done so).
The granny charger is designed as an emergency charger. Any socket providing EV charging should comply with regulations, to include (but not limited to) PEN fault protection or earth rod, independently protected by an RCD. Yes, it will work fine - but proper EV charging installations have protection that a regular outdoor socket ordinarly would not.
In the UK It is not illegal to do your own electrical work , there is no legal requirement or regulation requirement to be a qualified electrician, or to be registered, the law only states that you are competent to carry out such work. And that any notifiable work must be notified to your local building control before the work begins. And a minor work certificate should be filed out and kept in a safe place. As for your electrician telling you to just wrap tape around the damaged power cord is a pilchard. Any damage to any electrical equipment including power cords should be replaced with new . Also the wiring regulations are not mandatory ie not law and there is no requirement to bring existing wiring and or electrical equipment upto the current standard. If as you say he certified the EV installation as safe then there was no need to upgrade it. But the power cord should be replaced wrapping tape round it will not prevent further damage. I have been a qualified electrician for a little over thirty eight years. Please do some research and learn the facts.
It is not illegal for anyone to do their own electrical work. If the work is part of the house electrics then it should be inspected by a qualified electrician (good luck finding a reasonable priced competent one, there are loads of expensive cowboys out there). Getting your own work inspected or an EICR may be more expensive than getting an electrician to do the work in the first place. If you are fitting an 'appliance' (spur fed from a 13A plug) then that is legal but you should be sensible and downrate anything you plug into your appliance. After all it is a spur not a ring.
Actually it is what is notifiable to building control. It is illegal to do electrical work that is notifiable without the appropriate qualifications specifically being Part P qualified. And EICR is not an installation certificate and electricians are usually under instruction from their trade associations not to certify someone else’s work. Also car chargers as a special case in my opinion because in the event of a neutral fault the body of the car can become live so the correct earthing arrangement is potentially a life saver, something that most DIYers won’t know.
Yeah might depend on the country you're in and what you're doing. Here in Australia our electrician wouldn't even let me run cable and clip it last time as he has to inspect it and give us a written compliance certificate for any work done.
Have to disagree with the order you used to connect your granny charger, you're doing everything back to front, you should plug in at the 3 pin wall outlet first and turn on the socket switch, the last action should be to plug the type 2 plug into the car, if you plug in at the car first and the last action you do is to switch on at the wall socket you will likely get arcing when you flick the switch, doing that every time you charge will likely cause the socket over time to fail prematurely.
In either case, the initial load is likely to be just the box electronics, then negotiation with the car, contactor closes next. I wouldn't expect the switch to be switching 2kW+ from the outset. (I could be wrong but that's the sequence I'd expect.)
Alexa switches my charging on at 00.30 and off at 4.30 on octopus go. More than enough for us and over the week our car is charged for the weekend. 2p a mile now the weather is warm.
just one very vital part of the equation missing from daves calculations. how much the home charging installation and the latest upgrades cost. i:ve not got any idea, but if say a thousand pounds, that amounts to a lot of miles in fuel. dave putting out mis information yet again.
Yep first thing I thought of as well. Isn't running a lead out a window or from an outside socket across the ground just such step forward in life as well?
I used to spend £400 per month on diesel as I have often stated, that's nearly £5,000 per year. PER YEAR!!! £1,000 spent on a home charger to reduce this to around £1,000 PER YEAR!!! is an absolute bargain.
Some/maybe all EV's charge at a lower efficiency when charging at a lower rate. I,ve seen figures for the Renault ZOE of 97℅ efficient charging @7.2kW dropping to 77% efficient @2.4kW. Not a big enough difference to cover the cost of a charger but 20℅ higher charging cost with a granny charger.
Open Tesla chargers are few and far between in Republic of Ireland (ROI) at the moment. No open to all Tesla chargers in Northern Ireland, South Eastern ROI, North Western ROI or North Eastern ROI ...
How on earth do you only get 5 mies an hour from 2.4 kW. That's only 2 miles/kWh. At this time of year, I'm easily getting 4.5miles/kWh, so my granny charges at 10.8 miles per hour. And my cost is 1.6p per mile.
At last, even the state controlled national media are having to report the FACT that EV sales have stalled FACT, no argument, apart from fleet sales, which are also slowing down. Please lets not have anymore mis information about EV sales being on the up.
Vehicle sales numbers here in Australia have just come out. Last time there were a few EVs in the top ten but this time there were none and Toyota had 4 vehicles in there including the No1 RAV4. It seems that reality is starting to bite.
And a different circuit. You really shouldn't be pulling 10A continuous from a household circuit, especially in the UK where ring mains are common. In Australia we only use single ended circuits rated at 13A so there's more copper but I still wouldn't pull 10A continuous.
Hi Dave When I've driven to the pumps, stood there for 5 minutes, held a smelly, 🤣germ ridden nozzle 😂and breathed in nasty,🤣noxious, toxic,😆 lethal fumes,🤣 I can drive straight to the pub. When you've been charging for 4 hours, the pub is shut.😝 Are you going to tell me if you're related to airgun Andy? You sound like twins.
Sorry but bad advice given there. You should only use a 13A socket that is designed for EV charging. The sockets are standard 13A 3 pin but are marked EV on the back of the socket. You can replace your existing 13A socket with “ like for like” and can purchase 13A EV sockets at any electrical wholesaler. Any decent electrician knows this so maybe listen to one ;)
At the risk of sounding stupid doing 20 miles but using 9.6kw of electricity seems very uneconomical for a modern EV. 2.08 miles per kilowatt is very low isnt it. We have a 2024 kona Ev and lowest i have seen up to now is 4.l miles per kilowatt. I have been looking at different " economy 7 " tariff, and what you often see is the daily standing charge rate goes up a bit as well as the hours outside of your cheap rate.
Not stupid just mixing two totally unrelated things. In petrol terms it doesn’t matter how fast or slow you fill the tank, it doesn’t affect your mpg. EV Charging rate is not related to usage rate.
The average driver in the UK travels fewer than 40 miles a day (I think it is stated as being 18 miles). This type of charger will put 50 miles back on your car in 8 hours or so which is more than enough for a lot of users; do your 50 miles in the day, plug in when you get home and you have those 50 miles back when you need it the next day.
Bit of advice if you are going to make a gash repairs on your charging cable. Use amalgamating tape rather than insulating tape. Looks like Dave has used insulating tape, oh dear.
Useful video, thanks! However, i do feel an element of bias in some of your videos (sorry!). I'm very neutral on EV v ICE cars, and have just bought an EV (hence watching EV videos in my research), but still have ICE. I need bias free advice etc. It's not so much i mind you having your own opinion of course!, rather the language/descriptive nature you chose to use. It's as if you have to "defend/justify" the choices you have made. For example, a Tesla is less likely to be in a front end crash. It's safety systems on board mostly prevent them. However, there isn't much it can do to prevent a rear end shunt. Isofix seats aren't "just held in with a couple of clips" for an example of your defensive wording (they are unbelievably designed for strength/safety). Also, Isofix seats are positioned centrally in the car. Your rear child seats are directly in a crash zone.You know this and accept the risk, which is your choice. However, i would say that most forward facing 7 seaters still have the "jumps seats" in a rear crash zone, so Tesla isn't alone in this!
In my experience as an electrician the weak point in 3 pin plug charging is often the switch on the domestic socket. I would suggest using an unswitched socket if possible, just remember to stop the charge before unplugging it, or if it is switched dont use the switch to stop the charge. Dont use an extension lead if the granny lead wont reach the socket, get a spur installed off the ring main, or a specific radial circuit solely for charging to reach the car. For waterproof sockets you should be able to replace a switched socket fascia with a non switched one eg the BG storm model.
All home EV 'Granny' chargers that connect to a domestic 3 Pin Plug are rated for 10A. This is because, whilst a 3 Pin Socket may well be rated for 13A, that isn't 13A continuous current. If you boil your kettle it'll take 10-13A for a short period of time. But plugging in an EV will mean the car will take 10A / 13A continuously for many hours - maybe 20 hours or more in some cases (my 78kW Polestar 2 LR takes 40 hours to charge to 100% from 0% on a Granny cable but realistically the most I've done is 30% to 90% which took 24 hours.)
This continuous load creates a problem as if the home wiring is old and isn't up to standard, people may have loose connections in the back of the socket or other issues such as poorly installed junction boxes, it can stress existing weaknesses in a home's installation & presents a fire risk - this is why they picked 10A rather than 13A for the granny cables. They do warm up quite a bit (my Granny EV charger (Masterplug - I have a Volvo one for the Polestar but I keep a masterplug one in the garage) shows it's current temperature and when charging it pretty much always 45C), and I've seen cheap extension leads that have melted due to someone keeping an EV plugged in for hours on end. So - the 10A limit is for safety reasons. Whilst I'm not as extreme as the eFIXX guys who are very anti 3-Pin plug and clearly wanting to sell a home charger, I have taken all precations possible such as making sure I have a Dedicated EV-Rated charging socket like yourself, with an RCD on the socket and an RCBO on the main fuse for the circuit in the garage where I connect up to. Never use an extension lead (unless you get a specific EV charging rated one from a reputable supplier, which are quite expensive but are available).
I do wish I could have a 7kW charger fitted, but my house is rented, I'd need the DNO to move me from a looped supply to a dedicated supply, I'd need an upgraded main fuse (currently 60A) and where my car is parked is ~30m away from my CU which is at the front of the house and my driveway is behind a garage which is behind the back of my house, so I'd need to run a complete new cable in the foundations of the property, across a hard standing yard, and then into the garage. So I'm currently stuck with a 2.3kW Granny cable for the foreseeable future (which doesn't bother me tbh).
True 10A is to keep things cool for long term use but the wiring to a double home socket is rated for 26 amp so no chance of your wiring failing. The fuse in the 13 amp plug and 16/20amp in the consumer unit would trip first before the cables set on fire.
My granny charger is rated from 2-10A. I use it at 10A. I've never felt it get warm. I've left it for 24 hours (EVSE near me was busted). I regularly checked the cabling, the socket and the 3 pin plug for heat. All were at ambient temperature or slightly above. Maybe it depends on the company manufacturer.
@@sang3EtaThat is incorrect. The whole circuit is rated at 13A. You can't pull 26A just because it's a double socket. It would have to be fed from two different circuits and they aren't. The double socket is just for convenience - it doesn't magically increase the rating of the circuit.
EV extension cables are not approved for use in Europe or the UK if you're referring to the type 2 to type 2 extensions. You may be able to buy them but they are not approved. You're only option is to buy an EVSE with a long cable like the Tesla UMC or have a longer cable fitted to an existing EVSE or buy a long type2 to type 2 and an EVSE that has a type 2 socket.
@mondotv4216 The double socket is rated at 20 amps. By the way, a 13 amp fuse doesn't blow until it reaches 20 amps.
the maximum rated CONTINUOUS draw from a BS1363 socket is 10A, not 13A. Hence UK EVSE equipment is usually limited to 10A, and should not be increased beyond that. If you are plugging it into a ring main as opposed to a spur (as you're doing in the kitchen there presumably) preferably you would reduce it to something like 6A to avoid overheating.
Could you replace the 13amp plug with one of those blue 16 amp commando sockets? On a 20amp RCD you could draw 16. Amp continuously.
You can buy a 3kw heater with a plug attached.
My EV socket is run from an EV distribution box, with RCBO, surge protector and Earth rod. Still cheap as chips.
@@patdbeanIf that's the plan then might as well get a32A commando circuit put in and use that connector on the Tesla charger and get the full 7kW.
@@Joeb4iley yes, but it does not run at 3kw all the time it will have a thermostat.
I’m a very low mileage user so I charge my car from the 3pin plug all the time without any problems. I work shift’s and have solar panels so for most of the year it’s free. When the sun is not giving enough power I just turn the charge down to 5 amp. I know it’s not for most people but for someone like myself who does less than 3000 miles per year it’s perfect 👌
not free though is it because you had a huge layout for the solar panels
@@mandismith89 Starts to become free after around 10-15 years.
@@paulweston1106and solar panels are capped at only 15-20% maximum capacity,
For someone who is looking at a small ev in new year and is new to this game. This is excellent, thank you.
You summed a lot up very well, however there is some stuff I want to add/answer:
1. inclusion of EVSES
The adapter used to charge is NOT the charger, but instead the EVSE. The charger is built into the car. EVSEs are commonly not included anymore, however any manufacturer does it different. Here the Tesla UMC1 is shown. Newer Tesla Models don't include the UMC anymore. UMC2 can be bought separately. With many manufacturers you are able to add one in the configurator. If you're planning on using one daily, you can buy something more expensive like a juice booster, which has a thermal sensor in the plug to prevent melting.
2. Amperage
Your UMC detects that the adapter for a 13 amp Wall-Plug is connected, and therefore limits it to 10 Amps, since the maximum long-duration rating is 10 Amps. If you connect an adapter for a different plug, for example the blue CEE16, it will enable more power, in that case 16 Amps.
3. calculation
The calculations regarding the charge price, that you've done are roughly correct. There are some aspects that you haven't taken into account! The charging losses differ from the charging method. Charging with a lower amperage will result in higher losses, which weren't accounted in any of the calculations. The charging-loss for a Tesla Model 3 is on average 15.2% on 2.6kW AC (plug) and 7.7% on 11kW AC (wallbox). This shows, how large the impact is.
I hope that I could clarify some things.
Your calculations are fundamentally wrong. 5 miles per hour is wrong at a 2.4kW charge rate. Should be around 10 assuming 4 miles per kWh so your costs are around half of what you are saying!
It charges at 10 amps to prevent overheating of plug , socket , and wire mate 👍
18 months with my EV, public charged 4 times, 95% overnight by granny cable at cheap rate. No issues.
but think of all the time you wasted in those 4 charges...over 18 months... (shall I get my coat? 😁)
@@djtaylorutube I know, isn’t it terrible. Obviously ruined the whole EV experience and I’ll have to go back to Diesel :) :) :) :)
@@ISuperTed Yep, my supercharger usage is much higher (36% this year ) but that's mostly boosted by European roadtrips. It is what it is. Still easy enough to provide a bit of thought to the journey and combine as much of that with sleeping and meal times.
My best observation is that a run to my local Costco to fuel my classic car is 12 minutes each way, 30 mins in the car park queue for fuel and then that elusive 3 minute fill. That hour is the same time it takes us to charge from Calais to Switzerland, two stops which we use for a short breakfast (15 mins) and a longer lunch (45 mins). Apparently such larking about is impossible. I'm told I should stick to local shops only. 😁
Yes, EVs are okay for infrequent short trips.
Just make sure you don’t park too close to the house
@@twig3288 I agree, 2000+ miles is a short trip that we do infrequently. 😉
Way to go Dave. I drive 63 miles a day (usually) and charge 8 hours a night on my granny charger, no problems, IF I need more once a month maybe I call into my local. tesla open to all chargers!
😂
I run my MG on a granny charger. I am a low annual mileage driver and my rules are only draw a maximum of 10 amps, check the plug temperature (should only be slightly warm to the touch), change the 13 amp fuse for a new one if the plug ever gets beyond warm, I only charge when we are around the house and not sleeping (unfortunately missing out on the cheap rate). Interestingly the car only indicates a 1.7/1.8 kWh charge into the battery. The external waterproof socket is on a 30 amp cable spur off a very heavy duty cable ring main. No problems so far and I've never felt the need to get a dedicated charger installed.
Does your charger have a variable setting. The one that came with my Ioniq 5 is variable from 6A - 12A, it came preset at 6A. When set at 10A I get around 2.2kW of charging, this seems to work as the voltage isn't quite 240V, the current isn't quite 10A and the power factor is around 0.98. I would have thought that you should be able to get more than 1.8kW.
@@paulweston1106 I get the same on my MG4 at 1.9-2.0kW the EVSE reports a 9.5A output, which in theory should give 2.28kW so I am guessing 0.2kW is losses along the way.
Thanks for a sensible video, Dave. It is the best one on home charging I have seen so far. We live in Australia and are waiting for an electric car without a sunroof to become available. I had a Landrover Discovery with several windows and a sunroof, which nearly cooked my brain in our summers. The windows were useless to us, so I insulated them all. It is crazy in hot countries to have all that glass.
had our leaf 4 years. only ever charged with the supplied charger. zero problems and non need to fit a different one.
Got a new M3LR 3 months ago, first EV. 6000 miles so far all on the granny charger, no issues 10A and works absolutely fine.
I was going to get a 7kw, but after 1600 miles a months I’ve never even used a supercharger. Plug never gets warm, even after 8 hours it’s not even warm to the touch.
Can’t see me ever needing to spend money on 7kw. And the 1500 miles a month costs me £22 😀👌
OK, model 3 owner here, LOLing at your litle skits on opening your charge port on the S compared to 3s and later. But the big rear seat reveal genuinely floored me. I had no idea the S had this trick up its sleeve.
Thanks, Dave. I'm always interested on how things are on the other side of the Pond. L1 (granny) chargers in the US are 110-120V and 12A max (on a 15A circuit). Now that's slow! 240V makes a big difference and most reasonable EV owners put in a L2 220-240V outlet to charge their EVs. Often times an electric dryer outlet is repurposed for this duty, especially if one runs their dryer on natural gas as we do (it's common here). However, while we can sometimes opt for different rate plans from our utility, we can't choose another provider. We pay $0.60/kWh on peak here (4pm-9pm) and $0.24/kWh off peak (rest of the time) with our provider (SoCal Edison). And I do wish our outlets had on/off switches sometimes!
Yikes on those electric rates. My OG&E service (Oklahoma) is .12 kWh no matter the time of day. And 33% of the grid power comes from wind farms.
Some socket have a magnet build in, this magnet will close a small circuit to allow 13A. Continiously 13A might get hot and crack the socket, so stick with that 10A. 😊
I love, and always change my MG4 Trophy from an industrial extension plugged into the garage (it's on a separate consumer unit to the house). It's a shame my leccy cupboard isn't big enough for a smart meter to take advantage of cheaper tariffs. Still, 21p per kW is so much cheaper than dirty ICE fuel 😊
I just changed to Tomato energy and get between 10 and 12 at night for 13p kw/h and 5p kw/h between 12 and 6am which gives me 25% of the battery or 65miles of range for pennies, also the standing charge is only 40p a day as opposed to 60 odd pence from all the other suppliers
I have a 32A commando socket in the garage. I plug my home made charger into that.
the 13amp fuse get hot if have it on too long and so can over time kill the fuse.
it is best to just run for 2 hours at a time or day.
by doing 10 A it stops heating the fuse up just a little slower. and keeps not taking off the full 13A heating up the cable etc.
you do miss out that fuel is not the only thing for petrol it needs service parts sparks etc which cost and need changing every 10k so you have the cost of this service / how often you have to do it to add per a mile.
you dont have that in an ev, No need to do a service
Really well explained!
I have a Kia E Niro 64Kwh, and I only have a 3 pin charger (sadly I can't get a 7Kw charger installed) and I have never had an issue as I drive less than 30 miles per day and my 3 pin charger gets me 35 mines range per night on my Octopus Go tariff!
Not an ev driver but actively looking at getting one as my next car. However on the subject of cheap overnight charging my basic maths worked out that the increased day tariff on many ev tariffs wipes out any savings gained unless you have a home storage battery you might as well stick to standard tariffs
Check your sums again my day rate is the standard variable tariff while my cheap rate is 7p. Massive saving
The end you plug on to the Tesla ‘granny’ charger tells it the max current to allow. For continuous supply in uk sockets that’s 10a. If you connect a schucko end to the Tesla granny it will do 13a, there are two commando ends available for 16 or 32a. Meaning on right supply with right socket you can get 7kw through your granny. Very versatile.
The charge rate is set by charger via pilot wire in type 2 socket. The onboard charger looks at pilot wire for charge rate. Granny charger are set to 10 amps max. Wall charger can be set to 3.6 kw to 7kw depending on supply and cable size. I use my granny charger with my solar. Solar systems are around 4kw 16 amps max so 7 kw charger would draw 32 amps. 16 amps from solar and 16 amps from grid.
What about fitting a dual appliance terminal to the 32a cooker cable and plugging into that for faster charging?
In Norway using the emergency charger as a permanent solution is not legal anymore. The Schuko socket is not designed for sustained load like this and can overheat. There is also some kind of protection missing to prevent backfeed or something, not sure exactly what the term is and what it is all about.
I've managed for a year on the 13A socket in my garage, but I'm getting a charger next week. Well, charger, solar panels, battery, the lot. The EV is clearly a gateway drug.
First, being retired, my usage is irregular. Some days nothing, lots of days one or two short runs, sometimes up to 100 miles round trip to go to the theatre. The problem arises if I have two long trips on consecutive days. For example one Friday I got back from the 100-mile theatre trip at almost midnight, and had to leave again at nine on the Saturday morning. There wasn't enough time to get a safe amount into the battery for the second day's driving. (In fact I had had another trip on the Friday morning so didn't even start the 100-mile run full.)
I plugged the car in whenever I was in the house between trips, but it was still tight. However, there are destination chargers in the car park I use for the theatre, and three and a half hours on one of those made all the difference. 40p/kwh but worth it. I could have stopped at a rapid charger on the way home, or even the 50kw rapid five minutes walk from my house, but hey, February and midnight.
I was finding that the time it would take to replace charge used was deterring me from impulse trips. And there isn't always a destination charger where I'm parked, so the threat of a midnight visit to a rapid was always there. And I have a huge south-facing roof which seems a bit of a crime not to cover in solar panels, so I decided to go the whole hog.
There is another point. There is a time when you do have to charge the whole way in one go on AC. It's recommended, at least every six months, to let the car see the bottom of the charging cycle then charge all the way to 100% and balance. Keeps the GOM honest, which is especially important with LFP batteries I believe. I'm doing that this weekend. I haven't charged for over a week. I have 28 miles to do tomorrow morning and currently 42 miles on the GOM. Hopefully I wont run out half a mile from home! Once I get home it will take until mid afternoon on Saturday to do the full long charge. It would only take about eight hours on a home charger, so I won't have to worry about finding a clear day when I don't need the car in future.
Why don't I just leave this one till after the charger is installed? Long story, but I want to do it before I set off on a long road trip in ten days time, and I can't see any opportunity to run it to >10% in the mean time. And I'd rather get to grips with the Zappi gradually!
Great one Dave, the figures are a great idea to show how it can work. It is nice to know that we have an option to fall back on if we ever need to add a bit of charge away from home and no EV chargers are nearby.
It's worth mentioning up front for US viewers that Dave is in the UK, where the standard power is 240 volts. It does make a difference.
Thanks Philip, I should have mentioned that
That's why I don't bother with a 120v 15amp connection. Have a 4 pin 240v 50amp connection in my garage for charging my Model Y and Wrangler 4xe.
@@mowcowbell el sistema americano es pobre para cargas en el hogar. El europeo está mejor diseñado para estos servicios. Si hacemos una pequeña reforma a sistema trifasico se pueden cargar en el hogar a 11 KWh.
Good video as always. Don't forget the issue of off peak rates are now dependent on the make of charger or car. Several chargers aren't compatible or makes of car. You end up not being able to use off peak & changing your charger is a nightmare, I've spent 6 months trying to get a company to come & replace a charger rather than do a new install.
Some do require specific devices to take advantage of cheaper rates throughout the day. Others give you a rate similar to Economy 7 so it is fixed at that time of night no matter what devices you use: ev charger or washing machine.
The catch is a slightly higher day time rate and therefore make sense if you can shift about 60% of the combined domestic and EV charging use to those night time hours.
@fenegroni Yes, we did think of that, soon as you mention you have an ev they just offer ev rates as we found out to late
My Eon drive gives me 7 hours cheap rate which is for all electric, i use it to top up my hot tub heat everynight & washing machine/tumble dryer.
By letting Octopus control your charge times, you can get several hours in the evening at the cheap rate too.
Hi dave iv just purchased a Volvo ex30 no off street parking but have applied for planning permission to see if possible.but planning a commando granny charger im with OVO which would be 7p but dont think ovo recognized this type of charger to get this 7p rate is there any other power company that you would recommend for use of this charger to get a good charge rate per kw ?
I did not buy the Tesla charger as I wanted a detachable cable. It can be easily replaced if it gets damaged and I can take it with me to use where a cable it not provided.
I charge at work most of the time (as it’s free). I couldn’t have a home charger fitted, but I had an outside 13 amp socket fitted (EV rated) which I use occasionally. I put my Volvo XC40 on charge for 12 hours if I need a boost at home, which will give me approx 30%.
Worth a NOTE
You are NOT to charge EVs from standard UK 13A socket! These are not built for 20 hours of constant 10A curtent.
There are special 13A sockets that you CAN use and these have to be marked EV on the back of the sockets. It us unlikely that your old kitchen socket or standard external socket is suitable for EV charging! Using these will inttoduce potencial fire risk etc...
I'd caution you to check your home insurance before charging an EV from a standard 13 amp socket. It all depends on your insurer, and your current policy - which is why it’s best to tell them! And before you ask, no I'm not involved in the insurance business, so I have no axe to grind.
I'm having a level 2 charger plug installed soon because the local power company will pay for it. In the meantime I've been using the 120VAC plug that came with the combination Level 1 / Level 2 charger my VW ID.4. It adds about 40 miles of range overnight. It's plugged into an exterior weather protected GFI outlet so I'm not worried about burning down the neighborhood. And yes, I understand the implications of continuous use but also understand the charging curve and the fact EV's don't (can't) draw the maximum possible amount of current for the duration of charging. When I plug in my EV the street lights in the neighborhood don't go dim. Between that and three years free charging at Electrify America stations I couldn't imagine ever going back to an ICE vehicle. I'm also coming up on enough miles when I would need to do my first $100.00 oil change that I won't have to do anymore. Between that and the average $250.00/month I'm no longer spending on gas (20MPG) i'm becoming one of those EV evangelists your mother warned you about. Cheers Dave!
I've just spoke to eon over the phone and enquired about the cheap rate, however they cant give the discounted price because I dont have the wall charger installed. Will be checking with octopus energy to see what they can do.
I charge my model 3 at home and use the plug in charger I purchased for my previous EV. I have only used fast chargers three times in 10 months and one of them was a Tesla Supercharger.
One thing that isn’t mentioned is that most utility companies who offer a cheap rate for EV charging, will put the daily unit rate up to compensate their loss.
Great video, thanks. I'm currently waiting for my Tesla to arrive and am considering just using the 3-pin charger as I'm a low mileage driver (probably 15 miles max. per day). I was considering installing an IP rated socket outside, but I believe the mobile charger isn't suitable for use in the rain? Also, most Electricity companies have their cheap tariffs through the night and I'd prefer to not leave a lead hanging out the open window overnight. How are people getting around this issue? Keeping the plug end of the mobile connector inside and dry, but not leaving your house vunerable with a window open.
Living in Sweden, we have been using the Nissan 10A charger in a 16A outlet for 3 years by now, works just fine.
same here just a normal out door socket. charged our leaf daily for 4 years with the charger and zero problems
Ovo do charge anytime at 7p per kwh. Anytime of day or night
Are sockets on a "2-Gang DP Cooker switch & 13A DP switched socket" for electric cookers any better than a kitchen standard 13A socket in terms of handling the load of granny charging? Or are they same as any standard 13A socket?
Sorry Dave, your calculation seems to show a consumption of 2.1 mpkWh , my EV's have never used that .
Current MGZS has a lifetime average of 3.6, and gets 4.2-4.5 on a summer run. That means on 27p it would be 6.5-7.5 ppm. I get 9p off peak on an old eco7 tariff so that drops to 2.5p +/-. Plus my 7 hours gets me 60 miles a night at that price, so 420 miles a week or 20,000 miles a year, I only do about 7k so only charge a couple of times a week.
I have used an older PodPoint wall charger at 3.3 kW, a Leaf and an MG granny each do 10A/2.3 ish kW and they all did the job fine.
Quite a few of the larger EV SUVs get down to 1.8 mpKWh real world consumption.
@@mbak7801 yes but not a Tesla S or 90% of UK/EU ones, even ETron is more than 2.1
I do a thousand miles a week in my model Y. 3 pin set up at home, I just turn it down to 8 amps. This puts at least 100 miles in overnight so I can always reach a supercharger. Over a weekend the car is full and ready for the next week. Just make sure whatever 3 pin set up you use is adequate. The right and preferably new cabling is being used. I have just fitted a 32 amp commando socket for the Tesla lead adapter. Whoosh! Now it charges very quick. It’s fitted with all the correct breakers, cables and earths. You don’t need a home charger….
Question - I have one 20 amp circuit in my garage. Is this an advantage in charging over the standard 10 amp plug? Is it safe to charge an ev overnight in my garage. I'm considering either MG 4 or BYD Dolphin.
ask an electrician and get him to test it and certify it.
Los adaptadores de carga portatiles llegan a 16A. Tu instalación a 20 A es segura pero pon un enchufe adecuado al consumo prolongado que es una carga de vehiculo.
My renault didnt come with one which was a curve ball when i bought my car. Had to public charge while i waited on my granny charger coming
We have a smart fortwo, which is big enough for the two of us, both retired no kids. We charge ours each weekend on the 'granny charger' which gives enough for the week. We very rarely use a public charger, because of the price,only when we have a meal in a restaurant Job done.
Retired Polestar 2 owner. Only use the 3 pin to charge. 8 miles per hour. Frustrated that no mobile signal where I live. No mobile signal = no Smart meter = no EV tariff = no 7p/kW off-peak. Still cheap at £300/yr instead of £3000 for the Volvo XC90.
I plug my granny charger in once or twice a week during cheap rate electricity, midnight to 8am or any time at weekends. When I go to the supermarkets in Spain they all have free chargers and it´s usually more convenient to park in these bays than normal ones. So I pay virtually nothing to drive a super smooth, fast and quiet MG4. I would never go back to a dirty, expensive ICE.
Pagas pero poco. De momento el kwh en el hogar está entorno a 12 céntimos/ Kwh ( haciendo una media ).
Your outdoor 13amp socket is certainly not up to current regulations. It should be wired with outdoor SWA cable (steel wire armoured), not the basic twin and earth cable that you have in place now.
My electrician passed it and certified it on the last inspection, that's good enough for me.
@@davetakesiton 😲😖
What is the fuse in the 13amp plug rated at? 13amp or only 10amp? Hence why you are only getting 10amps from your Grannie charger.
Some chargers are variable from 6A to 12A, a lot however are fixed at 10A because that is the maximum continuous load that standard UK sockets are rated for. You can go over 10A for short bursts (kettle for example) but if you are running a continuous load you shouldn't go over 10A.
Nobody has yet explained how, if the max continuous is 10A as you and many others state, you can run an electric fan oven 2,400W and three rings on a ceramic hob, 4,200W for several hours. Just asking?
@@davetakesiton I would hope that an electric cooker is on its own circuit with a proper cooker outlet and not just plugged into a standard 3 pin plug socket. It's the standard 3-pin outlet that is rated for 10A continuous load, the circuit should be able to take a higher load. I've seen a 3kW fan heater melt a standard 3 pin socket.
@@davetakesiton You oven does not draw a constant power for a extended period. Once up to temp, it modulates on & off at lower power to maintain temp. Unlike Granny charger which is running at full power all the time till car is charged. As well as comment below.
I find with my granny the plug gets warm on 10a but not on 8a so i have set it to 8.Its rarely used though. Change of topic, I used to have a Volvo estate with two fitted child seats in the back.
Great video Dave, I have to charge a home using a 13amp lead.
The Volvo EX30 doesn't come with a "Granny Cable". Renault didn't supply one with my Zoe either. Keep up the informative videos.
Does anyone know what it costs to charge a Tesla 3 for 12hrs at today’s electricity costs please in the UK. At home on a 3 pin plug!
I have a guest whose charged their car and I don’t know what to charge them. Thank you for any feed back.
Un cafe !!!!😂😂😂😂
Hi Dave, just a small point, but we actually use 230V here in the UK these days.
±10% in most areas. At least that's the requirement here in Norway. So it can be 207-253V.
Its almost 11am here as I write this and pretty warm so low load on the grid which means 244V at my meter. If its cold and dinner time this can drop to around 230V. My apartment building is less than 50m from the nearby substation so voltages will be higher than 230V. This is so that those furthest away also get a decent voltage.
Hi Dave can I ask what is your recommendation on which make of 3 Pin 13amp granny charger
screw fix do one or buy say Hyundai make the blue one you use to use ?
thanks in advance for reply
I use my granny charger to charge my M3P overnight. Plug is in the garage, I have to flip the fuses to the cooker and kitchen sockets then press charge on the app. I can then flick the cooker and kitchen sockets back on and it's fine. If I don't do this the RCD kicks in 🤷♂
Hi bro thanks for ur efforts just one thing please when you drive a car at40 mike per hour is it speed or capacity thanks
I have been using a 3-pin set for my PHEV for many years given the size of the battery the charge was never more than 6 hours. I have just got MG4 EV so I am seeing how it is going, thing is I don't have a commute of note so weekdays it is about 10 miles, which is no issue. Weekends may do 50-100 miles on days out so charging is going to be longer I expect. It is hard for me to be able to justify dropping £1,000 on a 'proper' charger setup when the existing setup looks like it should work for me (it is all electrician installed with a 3-pin marked as suitable for EV charging). I did wonder about if it could be straight swapped for a 16A commando which would be a bit faster but still talking £500 for the work, socket and new EVSE.
Gastar 500 por esa diferencia de velocidzd de carga no merece la pena.
A very good illustration, thanks.
Something to bear in mind whenever charging on an EVSE whether granny or 7kW: losses.
There are losses in the on board charger sometimes up to 15%.
Eg. My 3pin plug EVSE puts out 2.2kW but the onboard charger on my EV only charges the battery at 1.9 kW
A 7.4kW EVSE translates to 6.5kWh into the battery in one hour.
Therefore when I charge at home, I know I will end up spending about 15% more for those lost kWh.
Have you tried using one of those power monitor plugs between the outlet and the EVSE, I am seeing some losses but not as high as 15%. My Ioniq 5 reports 2.2kW when the EVSE is set at 10A.
@@paulweston1106I use a Tapo smart plug that’s how I know the on board charger loses 15% power.
It might be that the Ioniq reports what goes into the charger rather than what goes into the battery.
For example, on my EV I can see lower numbers for the charging power if I’m sitting in the car with the HVAC on or the battery preheater running. Or maybe the ioniq onboard charger is better.
The 16A and 32A charge rates quoted on the portable chargers will be for three-phase supplies, whereas you'll only be able to get 10A (2.4kW) from a UK domestic socket. Three phase supplies are far more common in domestic premises in Europe than here in the UK, so it's not something the average UK householder will necessarily have come across.
Additionally, your outside socket looks to have been a DIY install by somebody! Standard flat Twin+CPC cable is unsuitable for use outdoors due to its lack of UV and mechanical protection. It should ideally be cabled either in HiTuf or SWA. I'd get your electrician to quote to do it properly it next time he's doing some work for you 🙂
I think you're confused - the Tesla UMC is not three phase. The tail for 32A (at least in Australia) is a 3 phase plug but that is because that is the most common plug to carry 32A at things like camping grounds etc. However it is only 230V @ 32A single phase (or 240V depending on where you are). So a maximum of 7kW which is still pretty good but the maximum for 3 phase is 22kW (not that modern Teslas support that - they're mostly 11kW onboard chargers). There are some 3 phase portable units like the Fronius Wattpilot but they are more expensive than most Level 2 EVSE's.
@@mondotv4216 Sorry yes, you’re correct; I have no idea what I was thinking! His outside socket still requires remediation though 🙂
Good evening by the end of August I will have traded my Eclass coupe for an electric EV my choice is a second hand Jaguar I pace. My mileage is ludicrously small in fact I will on average never pay more than 7.5 pence per kwh. My weekly milage is 2 journeys per week golf club, and the weekly shop. So on the night rate 6hours each night I'm really happy
Apparently, EV charging points must be installed in accordance with current UK Electricity Regulations. The UK Electricity Regulations do not allow this unless additional PEN fault or local earthing rod protection is built in to the circuit used for charging. In any event, these chargers usually cause a normal 13Amp circuit plug, socket and wiring to overheat, with risk of melting of insulation and fire, unless the car allows you to set the charging amperage down to a much lower than 13Amp, safe level. Search youtube for professional opinion on this.
Kilo Watts are a unit of power, not speed. KWh are a unit of energy, i.e. power x time = energy. We should really measure energy in Joules, but KWh were created to help Joe Public better visualise energy consumption. A bit odd, but there you go....
Your outdoor socket seems to be wired with exposed twin and earth cable, not a good idea
I think it is worth mentioning that although I am an Octopus customer, they won't let me charge my 23 reg Hyundai Kona 64kw on a 3 pin plug at a special rate, unless I have a suitable charger installed. Even though my car can be programmed to handle the charge by itself through the app....So I have to use my granny charger and pay the normal rate....It doesn't affect my use as I am retired and don't do many miles, but no saving on the rate itself....Any comments would be welcolme.😗
I think you want "Octopus Go", their original EV tariff, as opposed to "Intelligent Octopus Go". You'll only get 5 hours of the cheaper rate (as opposed to 6), and the rate isn't AS good, but you don't need a compatible car or charger. Hope this helps!
@@Deeje2 Unfortunately no, that won't work, Octopus just told me that even on that tariff, I still need a home charger...So no cheaper rate available unless you spend £1500 + on a home charger, which, in my case, defeats the object.😔
These adaptors are only allowed mode 2 charging, which is limited to 10Amps
No, all these can and do switch onto 13Amp. I'm testing a number at the moment. What they should do is not what they actually do.
Kia have not supplied granny chargers for several years now. Handbook explains for emergency use only.. Given the regs on wall boxes. Granny chargers should be limited to a dedicated external 32 Amp supply. Not connected to any socket in the house. While you may check the electrics, many do not & may well still be running a house that has not been upgraded for decades. As you say. Precious... Yet will happily charge a car via a granny charger while asleep & many using cheap home extensions, again should not as it negates the thermal protection build into the charger.
What country are you in? Kia and Hyundai supply granny chargers (and normal charger cable) with all new BEVs and PHEVs in Ireland (and always have done so).
@@WheelieTheCapper UK. They stopped in 2020, & some before. Well documented on Kia forum & facebook groups.
Thats not a charger, its an adapter, the AC charger is onboard the car.
The granny charger is designed as an emergency charger. Any socket providing EV charging should comply with regulations, to include (but not limited to) PEN fault protection or earth rod, independently protected by an RCD. Yes, it will work fine - but proper EV charging installations have protection that a regular outdoor socket ordinarly would not.
In the UK It is not illegal to do your own electrical work , there is no legal requirement or regulation requirement to be a qualified electrician, or to be registered, the law only states that you are competent to carry out such work. And that any notifiable work must be notified to your local building control before the work begins. And a minor work certificate should be filed out and kept in a safe place. As for your electrician telling you to just wrap tape around the damaged power cord is a pilchard. Any damage to any electrical equipment including power cords should be replaced with new . Also the wiring regulations are not mandatory ie not law and there is no requirement to bring existing wiring and or electrical equipment upto the current standard. If as you say he certified the EV installation as safe then there was no need to upgrade it. But the power cord should be replaced wrapping tape round it will not prevent further damage.
I have been a qualified electrician for a little over thirty eight years. Please do some research and learn the facts.
Wow, the child seats in the back were a surprise!
It is not illegal for anyone to do their own electrical work. If the work is part of the house electrics then it should be inspected by a qualified electrician (good luck finding a reasonable priced competent one, there are loads of expensive cowboys out there). Getting your own work inspected or an EICR may be more expensive than getting an electrician to do the work in the first place. If you are fitting an 'appliance' (spur fed from a 13A plug) then that is legal but you should be sensible and downrate anything you plug into your appliance. After all it is a spur not a ring.
Actually it is what is notifiable to building control. It is illegal to do electrical work that is notifiable without the appropriate qualifications specifically being Part P qualified.
And EICR is not an installation certificate and electricians are usually under instruction from their trade associations not to certify someone else’s work.
Also car chargers as a special case in my opinion because in the event of a neutral fault the body of the car can become live so the correct earthing arrangement is potentially a life saver, something that most DIYers won’t know.
Yeah might depend on the country you're in and what you're doing.
Here in Australia our electrician wouldn't even let me run cable and clip it last time as he has to inspect it and give us a written compliance certificate for any work done.
Have to disagree with the order you used to connect your granny charger, you're doing everything back to front, you should plug in at the 3 pin wall outlet first and turn on the socket switch, the last action should be to plug the type 2 plug into the car, if you plug in at the car first and the last action you do is to switch on at the wall socket you will likely get arcing when you flick the switch, doing that every time you charge will likely cause the socket over time to fail prematurely.
In either case, the initial load is likely to be just the box electronics, then negotiation with the car, contactor closes next.
I wouldn't expect the switch to be switching 2kW+ from the outset.
(I could be wrong but that's the sequence I'd expect.)
The 49.12p standing charge is outrageous. That's £179.41 per year even if you used nothing.
My Kona had a granny charger. My EV6 didn’t. No matter as I’ve never used one
Alexa switches my charging on at 00.30 and off at 4.30 on octopus go. More than enough for us and over the week our car is charged for the weekend. 2p a mile now the weather is warm.
Brilliant video as always
just one very vital part of the equation missing from daves calculations. how much the home charging installation and the latest upgrades cost. i:ve not got any idea, but if say a thousand pounds, that amounts to a lot of miles in fuel. dave putting out mis information yet again.
Yep first thing I thought of as well.
Isn't running a lead out a window or from an outside socket across the ground just such step forward in life as well?
I used to spend £400 per month on diesel as I have often stated, that's nearly £5,000 per year. PER YEAR!!! £1,000 spent on a home charger to reduce this to around £1,000 PER YEAR!!! is an absolute bargain.
Some/maybe all EV's charge at a lower efficiency when charging at a lower rate.
I,ve seen figures for the Renault ZOE of 97℅ efficient charging @7.2kW dropping to 77% efficient @2.4kW.
Not a big enough difference to cover the cost of a charger but 20℅ higher charging cost with a granny charger.
Excellent Dave. Dave.
Kia don’t supply a ‘granny’ charger any more since about 2022. Not sure about other manufacturers.
My Ioniq 5 came with one which is odd when you consider the relationship between Kia and Hyundai.
In Ireland, both Kia and Hyundai supply a granny charger as standard on all BEVs and PHEVs
My ID.3 didn't come with a granny charger.
I have Kia eNiro. What are the best charging companies when driving to North of England and also Ireland?
I use ESB and Tesla chargers in Ireland.
Open Tesla chargers are few and far between in Republic of Ireland (ROI) at the moment. No open to all Tesla chargers in Northern Ireland, South Eastern ROI, North Western ROI or North Eastern ROI ...
How on earth do you only get 5 mies an hour from 2.4 kW. That's only 2 miles/kWh. At this time of year, I'm easily getting 4.5miles/kWh, so my granny charges at 10.8 miles per hour. And my cost is 1.6p per mile.
At last, even the state controlled national media are having to report the FACT that EV sales have stalled FACT, no argument, apart from fleet sales, which are also slowing down. Please lets not have anymore mis information about EV sales being on the up.
Vehicle sales numbers here in Australia have just come out.
Last time there were a few EVs in the top ten but this time there were none and Toyota had 4 vehicles in there including the No1 RAV4.
It seems that reality is starting to bite.
Very informative.
If you’re on OVO Charge Anytime it’s all at 7p kWh
My favourite YT EV channel is Mguy Australia
Ese canal esta lleno de odio....
You're getting 10Amps because you're using the 10A tail. To get 16 or 32A you need a different tail.
And a different circuit. You really shouldn't be pulling 10A continuous from a household circuit, especially in the UK where ring mains are common. In Australia we only use single ended circuits rated at 13A so there's more copper but I still wouldn't pull 10A continuous.
Hi Dave
When I've driven to the pumps, stood there for 5 minutes, held a smelly, 🤣germ ridden nozzle 😂and breathed in nasty,🤣noxious, toxic,😆 lethal fumes,🤣 I can drive straight to the pub.
When you've been charging for 4 hours, the pub is shut.😝
Are you going to tell me if you're related to airgun Andy?
You sound like twins.
Sorry but bad advice given there. You should only use a 13A socket that is designed for EV charging. The sockets are standard 13A 3 pin but are marked EV on the back of the socket. You can replace your existing 13A socket with “ like for like” and can purchase 13A EV sockets at any electrical wholesaler. Any decent electrician knows this so maybe listen to one ;)
At the risk of sounding stupid doing 20 miles but using 9.6kw of electricity seems very uneconomical for a modern EV.
2.08 miles per kilowatt is very low isnt it.
We have a 2024 kona Ev and lowest i have seen up to now is 4.l miles per kilowatt.
I have been looking at different " economy 7 " tariff, and what you often see is the daily standing charge rate goes up a bit as well as the hours outside of your cheap rate.
Not stupid just mixing two totally unrelated things. In petrol terms it doesn’t matter how fast or slow you fill the tank, it doesn’t affect your mpg. EV Charging rate is not related to usage rate.
It’s good to know that it’s possible to use a three pin plug to charge an electric vehicle. But it takes forever to charge it up!!
The average driver in the UK travels fewer than 40 miles a day (I think it is stated as being 18 miles). This type of charger will put 50 miles back on your car in 8 hours or so which is more than enough for a lot of users; do your 50 miles in the day, plug in when you get home and you have those 50 miles back when you need it the next day.
Well explained
Bit of advice if you are going to make a gash repairs on your charging cable. Use amalgamating tape rather than insulating tape. Looks like Dave has used insulating tape, oh dear.
It's not a repair, there is nothing but surface wear, as I explained. The tape merely covers the unsightly appearance and stops further deterioration.
Great video
Hyundai Ioniq charges at 3.3kw The app has 2.4 and 1.0kw options too if you want to be safer or match solar panel output
Useful video, thanks! However, i do feel an element of bias in some of your videos (sorry!). I'm very neutral on EV v ICE cars, and have just bought an EV (hence watching EV videos in my research), but still have ICE. I need bias free advice etc. It's not so much i mind you having your own opinion of course!, rather the language/descriptive nature you chose to use. It's as if you have to "defend/justify" the choices you have made. For example, a Tesla is less likely to be in a front end crash. It's safety systems on board mostly prevent them. However, there isn't much it can do to prevent a rear end shunt. Isofix seats aren't "just held in with a couple of clips" for an example of your defensive wording (they are unbelievably designed for strength/safety). Also, Isofix seats are positioned centrally in the car. Your rear child seats are directly in a crash zone.You know this and accept the risk, which is your choice. However, i would say that most forward facing 7 seaters still have the "jumps seats" in a rear crash zone, so Tesla isn't alone in this!