Absolutely. They should have considered the financial value of my proxies before making this irresponsible decision. I'm sure they _did not_. I shouldn't have to face the tail risk I accept when using TCG cards as an investment strategy.
I bought one precon from each of the most recent two sets and the card quality in both is god awful. The foiling looks terrible, a lot of the holo stickers are inconsistently placed and the cards are noticeably thinner. I’m glad I only buy real Magic product in the form of cheap precons because the proxies I get are way higher quality than any of WOTC junk these days. Proxies are the way to go if you want higher quality for way less money.
I'm glad to see CGB bring up the point of WOTC printing highly pushed direct-to-commander cards. It's a bad precedent, and easily worth the financial "loss" on those who bought into it. No one wants decks consisting of 99 "Masters" set cards.
Overall I agree with CGB’s take on this, which I guess means I disagree with other creators’ takes, such as Josh Lee Kwai or Brian Kibler. These bans are a net positive overall. I think like CGB stated a lot of the hurt is from waiting too long to ban problem cards, which just shows why the concepts of Rule 0 and sign post banning are logically incoherent. A format as large as commander cannot be supported by flimsy arguments that all boil down to “figure it out for yourselves.” I think ultimately we need to reframe the whole concept of rule 0 as being conversations for actual exceptions. Like hey, I want to play this banned card, or I would like to use this planeswalker as a commander, or I would like to use some silver border cards. Exceptions can be figured out within established play groups. But you need some baseline guidelines for commander play outside of that context, which is growing more and more common with store play and Magic Cons. This is good for that context. Basically I’m saying the ban list and other rules are a guide suggesting how to interact with the format in public, while when with those you know you can choose to collectively disregard those suggestions
I’ll argue it’s a negative for the game. Commander doesn’t need a rules committee, a third party, governing a casual format. They completely disregarded Rule 0 and spited CEDH. If you can’t communicate that’s a people problem not a card problem. Speaking of cards Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt were just recently reprinted. The RC either didn’t have the foresight or knew what would happen financially to LGS and collectors. If it’s the latter then they should be investigated to see if they sold off their copies before banning them. I’m sure WotC wouldn’t want to have their bottom dollar impacted and lose consumer confidence. So what is the point of buying collector packs now?
@@foreal7712& what if Wizards were to make the ban list & that too has this bans? is it that a different group is ruling on it, or is it your wallet was hit? your fine with the game store making bans at there event? if most rule zero conversation include a card, shouldn't it just get banned? it's not going to effect casual as they play with what they want
@@foreal7712 the idea that this was done in any sort of spite of the cedh community is completely disconnected from reality. you realize bans happen in real competitive magic formats? i have lost so much respect for cedh players because of this frankly childish reaction in regards to collectors, take the L you are buying cardboard, even gold isn't stable and you expect cardboard game pieces (that you know can be banned at any time) to be? I do feel bad for stores, but it's just an unfortunate fact of the situation. however I truly believe that curating the most popular format to make it more healthy does more good than harm to most LGS's. we have no idea what's going on behind the scenes, for all we know the RC was trying to get wotc to not print these cards in preparation for a ban and wotc just tried to call their bluff and not listen (because all they care about is selling product) for once the RC uses their position as a party outside of WOTC to counter their bloodsucking monetization of commander and now we get all pissy and NO cards can be banned anymore, really excellent mindset
@@foreal7712 So you don't want people to play with, or against, anyone who is socially inept? You also think that the committee should be doing something that WotC adamantly claims to not do, keep the secondary market in mind when it comes to their regulating a game? The point of buying collector packs now is because you want the cards, not because you want to sell the cards on the secondary market.
@@foreal7712yes you do. Rule zero is not god, it's a bandaid. Banning creates a default and signals to players that playing something is likely to make the game worse. As a game designer, one of your most important jobs is to stop the player from accidentally ruining their experience. This is the same. It's removing pieces whose harmful effect is not immediately obvious to everyone to prevent those very unfun accidents.
I do find it kinda funny that the most common complaints I'm seeing about the bans aren't that its spoiling people's fun, but that people have lost money. Its not great, but surely every card you might buy, regardless of price could get banned for power level reasons.
@@alfredosaint-jean9660 Exactly, there are three values in a card. Monetary, Playability, and Sentiment. The first is fleeting and should be considered a cost, not an investment, in order to access the other two. It's nice to be able to recoup that cost, but you can't ever guarantee you'll get it back.
Id say the one thats fair to be upset about is jeweled lotus since that was a card specifically printed for commander and i dont think its legal in any other non commander like format
@@majintv24 I get what you mean, but at the same time it's such an obviously broken card that it shouldn't have been printed in the first place. It was going to have to be dealt with at some point. The alternative is saying that any card that mechanically references Commander is safe from bans, when honestly the opposite should be true.
I think a ban list actually helps with rule zero. Instead of having a ten minute conversation on what cards are okay and not okay, you can just say "i have these cards from the ban list. Is that okay?"
I have a Lutri deck and have always applied it that way. Ask before. Funnily I've never had a single pod have an issue with playing him as commander. Plenty of people play silver border cards as well. I think people are mad about the rule 0 thing because most people aren't going to want to play against decks with the newly banned cards. They don't add anything to the game that's fun or interesting, just an increased chance of having a non game.
Definitely agreed. If everyone has an unspoken understanding of certain cards which "aren't casual" then why re-tread the same ground in every rule zero talk? Put it in paper and ban them. It's less time consuming to only talk about exceptions to the rule.
@jackattackhissnack they aren't played. They aren't problematic most of the time because they have basically been rule 0ed across the community. If cards are basically banned and only pulled out by assholes who want to ruin a table, just ban them officially. Rule 0 them in if the table allows it because you build your wincon around making your lands indestructible.
I have a lot of sympathy for individual players who shelled out money to buy these cards in recent times. I do not have any sympathy for secondary market people malding that their investment portfolio dropped. WoTC has already annointed these people the stewards of the game with all the chase rarities and alternate arts. Im happy with how bold the RC was in not considering secondary value in this way.
You should not feel bad for adults making bad financial decisions. If as adults they don't know the risk of buying a piece of paper for more than 100$, then they probably deserved it to teach them a lesson in gambling and wasting money on speculation. Spending 100$ for a piece of paper worth 0,01$ to produce is a decision that comes with risk. Feeling bad for people who didn't evaluate/understand such obvious risks is a waste of time and energy.
@@TheSmartCinemabad financial decisions would be secondary market people. The people who bought them for their decks would be hobbyists/collectors who want to do it right - and it is a big difference
A person i knew told me.once, that cards being banned is a sign of good card design. Spefically because it means that boundries are being pushed, design space is being explored, and brains are being engaged. The only issue i have is, unlike when they banned smugglers copter, bans don't come fast enough
I think it's fine that they are printing good cards that see play. what is not fine is when it takes a long time to ban them. The bird is the word should have been emergy banned in modern immediately after pro tour MH3. CGB is 100% correct in this assessment.
I know feelings are strong about these bans, but I'm just glad I won't have to worry about people coming in and pub stomping casual commander night at my LGS with these fast mana pieces. I wouldn't mind Sol Ring also eating a ban, but I'm sure it won't happen until WOTC stops putting that card in every precon.
That doesn't matter. Precons are perpetually legal regardless of their contents so long as you do not change a single card in the deck. It's a stipulation in case of situations like this.
Then build better decks, im so sick of people complaining about certain cards in their pods, boo hoo, it's a game, get over it, I don't play cedh ever, but my friends and I just build decks we like that we think are fun, some of us have strong cards in some decks and some of us don't, and everyone in my group loses and wins all the time, I have friends with 3k sheoldred and kozilek decks with all the staples that people want banned, and other friends with 200 dollar decks that can't afford any card over 20 or 30 bucks, and they win just as often as everyone else, and honestly with all the magic I've played with friends and with strangers at lgs or on spell table, I hardly ever run into other decks where these cards are a problem at all, sure they are strong, but if 4 players are playing magic and know what they are doing, then someone is smart enough to hold up a countersepll, or a swords to plowshares, or one of the .million other answers for big threats, if you can't stop or remove a big spell or game winner, then you don't deserve to win that game, a well built deck that gets to go off and have a big fun play or win con deserves to do just that, I swear people get so salty because someone kills them or wins a game, my god, what is the point of playing a game if no one wants to play or interact or cast big fun stuff? I'd rather play 5 games in one session, rather than have a game drag out for 2 plus hours, because they banned all the win co editions and fadt mana, might as well just ban all mana rocks, make all lands come into play tapped, and not allow any widespread removal like board wipes or cyc rifts or anything of the sort, we don't need a commitee telling us how we all have to play because that's how they feel, that's leaning towards woke bs gameplay where some dumb group of cards decides what's fair and fun, quit printing cards to ban and ruining everyones collections, a d just let me people rule zero their house rules to what they want to ban and play with, Then all the true MTG fans that aren't scared of that crap can play real magic still and let the sissy's have their own dumbass house rules for the scary cat salts
It's just kinda sad that the RC had to come in and police people's behavior because these assholes wouldn't stop spitting on new players' precons with these cards that only really belong in the highest levels of play.
The Nadu ban is so hilarious. Originally designed for modern in a modern focused set, changed for commander which made it busted in modern, aaand it gets banned from commander anyway. Should have left it alone especially since they didn't bother to test the final version.
I'd like to share that Josh for the command zone (largest WOTC sponsored edh channel) is on the RC advisory board while being paid by WOTC. Imo, that's unethical and sets up a situation where an individual holds far too much power over the market.
I Like your evaluation of this topic. Especialy the „I wasn‘t Planning to Sell them, so I don‘t loose Money“ Part. If you buy Magic Cards for Investment you Are taking the known risk of moneyloss buy bans. If you buy them to collect/own them, you didn‘t loose If you love playing them, rule 0 them in your Playgroup, as you told us to do before with banning them. If i would have recognized how extensive dockside got again, i would have sold mine, insgesamt of finally putting him in a Deck Last Week After years of not doing it 😂
I understand the pain of having a card you love be banned, and I can absolutely relate to that feeling. I also have my own problems with the Rules Committee. However, I have always been annoyed by people who treat their cards as a financial investment acting like they have a right to know their investment will never, ever, be jeopardized by a ban or something. That is not how investments work. If you buy stock in a company, the value of your stock can absolutely go down, maybe even all the way to being worthless. If you want to treat game pieces as an investment, that's your prerogative, but you have to accept that investments do not always pan out, and the ban list is centered around people playing the game, not treating it like a stock market alternative. If you own banned cards and you weren't planning on selling them, then you just have to find people who are okay with playing against these cards and it's like nothing ever happened.
Lol let's ignore the fact that publicly traded companies regularly provide their financial statements so you can benchmark them. Also tell your lgs to stock buying and selling cards...
@@nathanwrennmn There's no getting around the fact this ban sucks for people and LGS's that own these cards, but you inherently accept the risk that things like this happen when you buy a card, regardless of what purpose you bought the card for. The fact these cards don't come with things like detailed financial statements is a significant part of why they are such a bad investment option.
Thank you CGB for being the level headed person in the room. Seen way too many folks spitting rage over these bans. But I can't but think they are the sort of people who contributed to the overinflated prices.
I searched "MtG ban" on TH-cam just to get a temperature of the room and saw thumbnails with people literally burning their Jeweled Lotus. Folks need more chill.
@@AxillaryPower2Tolerian Academy, ThatMillGuy and The Commander Podcast all had reasonnable takes, and are happy with the bans. I guess the TH-cam algorithm really can changes your perspective on things (I deleted Twitter a long time ago)
The main issue is that WotC designed these cards in the first place, they are an obvious mistake just like Hullbreacher. It took the RC way too long to ban these, they are obviously bad for the casual experience. I'm hopeful they'll ban some more problematic cards in the coming years like: Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, The One Ring. Those cards just suck the fun out of games and limit deck building.
I think Hullbreacher is great for Vintage. Not being able to run Hullbreacher is a real cost to running Lurrus. A bit of a tangent perhaps. I agree with the gist of your post, bann rystic and tithe absolutely.
I own one crypt and 2x docksides. Of these three, I pulled crypt from a mystery booster, got one dockside from C19 and bought the second dockside for $30 when it got reprinted in double masters. Objectively, I did not pay the $450 that they were theoretically worth, and I wasn’t likely to ever sell them. Objectively, it hasn’t ACTUALLY financially impacted me, but it still kinda feels like it has. I was running these cards in my decks, but as I went through and took them out and looked at replacing them, I agree that my decks will be more fun to play in their absence. I think the “wallet feel” for me is that now that they are banned, I effectively can’t sell them (even if before I had no intention to). It’s like retroactive FOMO, I feel like I have missed the opportunity to make bank on these cards, kinda like if you see your lottery numbers get drawn, but you never bothered buying a ticket.
I really hate hearing about the financial loss. It's literally the base risk of buying a piece of cardbox for 100$. Its ultimate value is a couple of cents ; what it cost to print it. If you, an adult, is willing to pay 100$ for a piece of paper, then don't cry afterwards. I feel the same about people crying about their financial loss, as I feel about someone losing at the casino. Would I feel bad for the bloke who burns 100$ on a table at the casino? No. Should I feel bad for a bloke who wasted 100$ on a piece of cardbox? No.
Wasted seems a bit fucking harsh for a game piece they have played with for/saved up for years to buy no? It's not like everyone was whaling through boxes to collect 30 lotuses and 20 crypts each.
Wizards doesn’t acknowledge any secondary value for their cards for a very good reason. People made dockside $100+ because they couldn’t get away from making it the centerpiece of their deck. Now they have to
There were people who spend 880 and 950 on invention mana crypt last week. Most of my friends lost 400-1000 between all their copies of banned cards. I understand your point, but I think people still have a right to be upset.
@@yugiohguy4543 womp womp bloke spent 1000$ on a piece of paper without assuming the risks it entailed. Being a responsible adult includes the ability to assess risk when spending money. The risk of the most powerful cards of a format getting banned has always been there. If as an adult you still choose to spend 1000$ on such card, knowing the risk, then I'd just say to you : grow up.
I think that CGB’s take is good and thoughtful. I think WOTC touching Commander is bad, because Hasbro’s shareholders don’t care about good game design. I think WOTC should stop printing cards directly for Commander, slow down their overall rate of printing cards, and focus more on the quality of their product. I empathize with anyone who feels a financial loss, but I don’t care. I want magic to be good to play, every other concern is secondary to me
I don't think that's true. The real reason they can't ban it is because 99% of precons would be illegal if they did. Cheap cards get banned all the time. That's not the reason.
Somewhat doubtful you will see this, but I want to say I liked this a lot and hope you are open to more casual discussion streams like this. Came to hear your opinions on the bans, ended up staying for the chill vibes.
as a new proxy player, I am thankful for all the money I will save going forward so we can detach from this insanity.. The house of cards is imploding!
I think the core issue here is monetary. Whether the bans will improve gameplay is largely subjective - and if the bans were Thassa's Oracle, Underworld Breach and Storm Kiln Artist, the backlash would be nowhere near as strong as it is now. When it comes to investments, everything carries risk - but consumers have a reasonable expectation of oversight and protection for high-value purchases (regardless of whether they would be considered a good investment or not). This is extensively covered in consumer protection laws. In this instance, there are two exacerbating factors: 1. The Rules Committee is not part of Wizards of the Coast which means that their decisions are not subject to the proper oversight (part of WotC's duties) 2. Two of the cards in question: Mana Crypt and Jewelled Lotus were very recently centerpieces of collector products and a large percentage of the set's value is tied up in these cards. While you could argue that the Nadu price drop is just an unfortunate cost of playing Magic, it would be disingenuous to suggest that collector boosters are not at least partly marketed as an investment. As far as format health goes, I also think that the impact of gameplay is less relevant than consumer confidence. (Assuming we measure format health by its longevity and the number of players) - lower consumer confidence = lower sales volumes = WotC is incentivised to either cut back their investment in the game. Wiping out tens of millions in card equity also has a disproportionate effect on your LGS. I don't think slowing down a Thoracle win once in a while balances the scales.
Honestly this is a perfrct video. Been playing this in my headphones at work for the full time. You should do more chill vids like this. And if ya do, guess it's my fault for not seeing them yet.
Just my opinion, them saying a card will be banned vs banning s card outright will have the same effect regardless. It sucks but the financial hit would likely be same. Not talking bout cgb but a lot of people are like the RC should be vocal. If they say a card may be banned or is going to be banned will still send the card plummeting in value
you are correct. people thinking they could offload their mana crypts for 200 bucks if the RC had communicated it gets banned in six months doesn't understand basic economics. Which is fine, most people don't.
I think the real problem here is that WotC has been dangling Mana Crypt and Jeweld Lotus in front of it's consumers to sell packs. I promise that the price of Mana Crypt on the secondary market has been extensively analyzed so that WotC can reprint it to drive sales on new packs without tanking it's value. Almost 100% of the value in these cards is driven by a format where they are no longer legal.
My only issue is that for people who like to play competitive, now if they don’t make a separate ban/unban list this actually hurts our meta and our variety of commanders that we can play. Decks that take a big hit or are unplayable now are korvold, Niv mizzet, sisay, kinnreth and any big commander. On top of that dockside is one of our main win conditions.
I agree with CGBs rhystic study take, and I’m particularly ornery toward smothering tithe.. it’s like delayed dockside imo. But, with the ban of fast mana I think early smothering tithes will feel less bad to me.
If the Tithe tax only costed 1 I think it’d feel more fair. Would still punish players being greedy and drawing a ton of cards, but it’d be reasonable to pay it off when you’re just drawing for turn.
I own Dockside and Mana Crypt, I'm more saddened by my Eldrazi titan tribal getting weaker than the loss of money since I hadn't planned on ever selling them before they got banned. The worst part of this ban is that decks built around cheap commanders, which were already strong, got stronger by comparison. My friend used to play Sauron in cEDH and he says that his deck is functionally dead now. I would like these bans if they had just banned 1 more card; Thoracle. I can't stand losing to Thoracle in any format, the win feels so unearned because it's built around throwing away your entire deck. Only wanting 1-2 cards from your deck is the antithesis of commander imo.
Rule 0 is trash, ban more, ban faster. Ban Sol Ring yesterday. Rhystic yesterday, smothering tithe yesterday. Deflecting swat and fierce guardianship. Like all these made for commander pushed cards. Sol ring would be fine if you couldnt play it turn 1 and maybe 2, print fixed sol ring ban old one.
Necropotence as well. Let the scrum bags that want these cards rule zero them in. Randos at the game store shouldn't have to deal with these things. Rule zero should be for the sweats that wanna play high powered.
Disagree on TOR. I think a card making 99% of all decks objectively better is a solid definition of an S tier card. The reason people don't see it more often is the price. Just because it's less boring to play than Teferi's Protection doesn't make it less homogenizing. It's even worse because it actually slots into every EDH deck being colorless.
I remember when Konami banned Zoodiacs for the first time. They'd deliberately printed them at a higher rarity compared to Japan. Then once the deck reached the price of the latest Iphone it got banned. This is similar regarding price but at least our decks are still playable.
After much deliberation i think the timing is good bc it forces all the decks with those cards to be changed right before the event so it actually opens up a huge window for creativity and brewing and new games at the event which will be a good marker of which cards will be substituted and a fresh look at the meta
The only thing I could say I disagree with is banning any of these cards for cEDH. I think it would’ve been a very nice line to have a casual EDH and a competitive EDH ban list. I don’t enjoy games where there is a jeweled Lotus commander turn one or infinite dockside temur sabertooth loops in a casual table but cEDH tables would have things like force of will, swords, or mental misstep for answers. At the end of the day, I think we need to have a separate banlist for cEDH and casual EDH as I full heartedly agree that these are good bans for your average player, but not good at all for competitive players.
CGB I Started watching you through rarran and now i watch both of yall almost everyday. You may be one of the coolest mtg players online and i would love to play paper magic with you. Thankyou for being awesome
the RC has mentioned several times for years that Dockside and Crypt were on a watchlist bc given their function and the progression of the game, it wasn't a matter of "if" but "when." Simply put, the game was too fast in casual, so ban the fast mana. They def should have pulled the plug on these 2 a long time ago, but I'm glad they're gone.
While I don't think some of this cards were "unfun" or to broken for the Commander format I don't mind the banning that much. My only problem with this Ban update that it didn't took Thoracle down with it too.
Amazing bans. Love the tears that came with them. I know who's crying btw. People too WEAK to do well in 1v1, that were getting off easy wins in EDH with broken cards. And speculators. Dunno which disgusts me more. (I do, it's speculators).
Appreciate the thoughts from both sides. From someone that got into magic a lot during the last year, I don't have the cards being band but I do empathize for the 'money loss' from the bans for long time collectors. Playing with multiple pods, it is wild to play against an over powered deck in commander, even at a house group with long time players. thanks for the vid.
46:06 I honestly get behind this. My problem with it is that the rules committee prebanned Lutri months prior. If fast mana like Mana Crypt was a problem for as long as it was, they should have given Jeweled Lotus the same treatment. But they didn't, which felt like a nod that a card like this is acceptable.
I used to hate to include RS in my commander decks, (Historic Brawl.) But i noticed that its a great card that can shutdown Storm, Niv Miz, etc. So i grew to appreciate how well it slows down way too fast decks.
I really appreciate how much you reinforced how terrible of a financial impact this had on people. Some people have spent MONTHS of their lives saving up for these cards only to see their dreams ruined by a non democratically elected authoritarian “committee”.
What dreams? Owning the cards? They still own them. Playing the card? They can still do that if their friends OK it. Or they could have proxyed the card in the first place.
I just bought a mana crypt, my first ever powerful card a few days ago, i havent even gotten it yet, basically just a big ol screw you Edit: Its fine guys im just gonna use it as a treasure token
It sucks that you have to suffer for this but it is a huge stick up to wizards to stop printing cards for specifically Commander. We have so much product right now we can't keep up with it and it's only going to get worse if we continue to let them do it.
Props to you CGB, I think you really communicated your opinion on this topic in a good way. I definitely understand how people feel upset about these bans when they have lost a big amount of money. For me, I mostly support these bans and as someone who in general does not include fast mana in my decks, I agree that this probably has a long time positive effect on the format. Generally, I enjoy the process of deck buiding when there are less auto-includes in the card-pool, so I think banning of these cards will make decks more exciting and diverse (I hope?). I just wished, they'd come to this decisions sooner and not burn so many people who embrace the high-end of the power spectrum.
It's a good first step. Honestly, the RC should completely revamp the ban list from the ground up. No more sol ring, cmc zero mana rocks, grim monolith, mana vault, thassa's oracle, timewtister, gaea's cradle (you get the idea). No more cheese cards or play patterns involving hyper fast mana production, it's unhealthy for the sake of the game. Also, just adapt? Well, players have no choice if you are going to play edh, you have to change or quit.
Best said tbh. These bans though only affect cEDH play like when your at you LGS just rule zero and play the cards you want. I think this is also going to help other decks have soace now instead of always focusing on super fast mana
Well 2 were specifically for commander nadu was technically designed for modern with a commander emphasis but was just poorly done from start to finish since they tested it based on commander
@@majintv24 they literally wrote in the modern ban announcement: "Nadu was aimed at (= designed for) commander play" Yes he was printed in "modern horizons" but modern horizons has always been 50/50 a commander/eternal set.
Totally agree with CGB's take. The whole point of commander is for casual play, and none of these cards should have existed in commander. The problem is wizards pushing and creating these cards which are so broken to begin with. If they really were staples, they wouldnt have cost hundreds of dollars for a single card, which so many cant afford.
would it be possible for a ban system similar to like league of legends, where everyone bans a couple cards and you must have a "side deck" like make it a mandatory rule
It doesn't work. If I bring Niv-mizzet parun and jewelled lotus and dockside gets banned I have to go home. My commander is uncastable forever. Or, someone brings an ad nass deck and ad nass gets banned. You can't replace one card, you have to switch every card because your entire strategy revolves around resolving ad nasseam.
@@Martin-qb2mw but thats cedh what your're describing, the problem with rule 0 is that it really doesn't work (friends and people at lgs' alike have never let me play with a banned card). If rule 0 was a mandatory rule for at least casual commander then it could work. At this point we have to separate cedh and edh bans lists, feels like the best solution at this point imo
For some decks, that's hard since it's a key piece. For stuff like Mana Crypt, you can definitely do this (and in fact a lot of players will have a "here's a card I can slide out and put mana crypt in if I want to play with people who have fast mana" to enable this
@@Kaiasky obviously I'm just spitballing here and I get it wouldn't be that simple, maybe not a literal adaptation of the league system but in casual edh where you usually don't rely on combos banning lotus or dockside wouldn't hinder your strategy. In my head, the players are aware that anything they play could be banned so they would be incentivized to build their decks in new interesting ways
Kinda sad that I just very recently bough Dockside as a gift for a friend... Obviously I understand the format-related reasons for the ban but it definitely hurts a bit :(
i get that ppl might be upset if they lost money but it is so absurd that anyone is arguing over these bans. if you question those bans you have absolutely no interest in commander being a good or healthy format.
The game comes 1st always. If the bans are an attempt to make commander a better format then your monetary investment do not matter. This is a game not a stock portfolio, if there weren't so many resellers/hoarders regular players could get cards cheaper. I just wanted to write this not towards anybody.
At first I was really upset over the bans because I never saw them played and I don't agree with banning cards. But your opinion on these bans, and the statements on Dockside and Jewelled Lotus made the most sense to me. I never considered the cash grab elements to cards made specifically for commander.
as someone who never invested in any of these cards I think it was a good decision they banned them so I never have to think about it anymore. something is good when it is catered to me specifically :) on a serious note: I truly believe that people who really love playing with fast mana and are outraged about these bans, really just want to play Yu-Gi-Oh but they are too embarassed to admit it
Tbf Crypt was never meant to be a legal card. It was a magazine promo. It was fine for so long in EDH because it was primarily battlecruiser for ages. But design in 2024 isn't like that any more and mana curves are so low for high impact cards, fast mana just keeps getting more and more impactful.
I think the funniest thing about this is that commander is kitchen table magic and if everyone at the table agrees you do not have to follow these "rules".
I kinda hope the silver border project evolves into like "I'm bringing a deck with fast mana, contraptions, and dexterity cards" "okay, I'm bringing a deck with a top-10 combo and land destruction"
Happy about the bans, but I think I'm going to keep dockside in my crappy Admiral Beckett Brass deck, sleeve up a Hullbreacher and put that back in, and when someone calls me out for cheating I'm going to just shrug and say, "Pirate." matter of factly.
Yea whats wrong with that? Theres a fundamental difference in the play patterns, eventhough theyre both winning strategies. With fast mana you basically unlock game winning actions before anyone can stop you. With Rhystic study you play politics and build up card advantage over time, which can be annoying sure, but its still in the spirit of commander
@destinyhero The proof is in his content that RS can go both ways. Either it will be ignored and the player playing RS gains a tremendous amount of value or the pod agrees mutually (and unspoken) to pay the one and then remove it or straight up kill the player that played the 3 mana enchantment without it having done anything. Especially in the later WPCS videos you will see that the pod often pays the one. Politics.
@@stefkemaksymow6993 yea exactly, this is what I was referring to. Although now I have a feeling destinyhero just really doesnt like rhystic study so it doesn't really matter if we explain haha
35:11 - Hot take but... This is why I felt like the Golos ban was unnecessary. Its popularity was an issue that would have solved itself over time, people would have got tired of it and started branching out again.
I do think one ring will get an edh ban one day due to price unless it gets banned modern. Due to licensing agreements, it doesnt seem possible to simply reprint the one ring.
Im not going to say i want the RC to be banning things every quarter, but i definitely think more open communication more often about what sorts of things they're looking at would be a good thing. That being said, these bans are an absolute positive for the format.
I know it'll never happen but I wish the RC had a lever to force reprints and otherwise control prices. It'd be healthier for the game and worse for wotc/hasbro's bottom line, so lmao.
From what I understand it kind of exists and both dockside and mana crypt were on it. Or it was communicated at least that those 2 were being closely watched.
I’d be much more devastated if I weren’t also really into cube. I feel very bad for everyone who has nothing else to do with these cards that don’t have a place in any other accessible formats, or at all in the case of lotus. That being said, everyone should try getting into cube.
It’s notable that nothing on the reserve list was touched. If they were being true to their own criteria there should have been a few that got hit. I do wonder if people really had so much of an issue with Jeweled Lotus? I have one and in my playing with it, it does lead to a crazy turn one occasionally, but more often than not it just ends up helping to cheat commander tax one time. And often it just ends up being a completely dead draw. Considering it is literally only playable in Conmander, banning it feels bad. At least Crypt still has Vintage. EDIT: I’m not complaining about Lotus. I pulled mine from a pack, so don’t feel the pain of the investment, but of all of the 4 bans, it seems to me the least ban-worthy from my experience.
Honestly wish they banned more cards. I have sympathy for anyone who bought these cards, especially recently, but I'm also glad they aren't letting money get in the way of making changes to the format that could make gameplay more enjoyable. I know they don't ban for cedh generally, but pls hit some of the egregious blue cards. They need a hit somewhere whether it's rhystic study/remora style cards, free counter magic, or thoracle. Dockside hits most, if not all cedh decks, but it definitely impacts some of the non blue turbo strategies the hardest.
Question, so how do you feel about all the over powered blue counterspells, if you play them in your deck it can be no fun for the table and should be band? All stax cards? Drannith Magistrate, cant play your commander....... just wondering your thoughts
simple: blue counterspells deserve to stay unbanned because blue is the best color. (but also, I really don't think counterspells are a problem for commander, card advantage limits the usefulness)
Playing around counterspells is part of learning to play Magic. They're a problem until one day they're just another mechanic. If you want to know how to beat them, play them and see how often you're caught dead for overreliance on them
Its not the commander committees fault that wotc was greedy bastards and decided to try to get broken cards into commander players hands. Mana crypt wasn't as much of a problem when there weren't a bunch of new mana crypts flowing around. And as for Jewelweed Lotus should have never been printed, commander didnt need or want a black lotus, why it was banned. Same with dockside. The committees fault is not banning dockside and lotus earlier.
As someone who doesn't play magic and has no emotional attachment to any of this, this whole stream feels like a tired dad lecturing his kids, they're stupid but he loves them
I appreciate the level headedness. The Magic community is far too reactionary and unable to see things objectively so it's good to see high profile members of the community not throwing a fit.
Yay, green ramp is even better now by eliminating ramp from other colors.. Mana rocks promote playing cards, fights against the achilles heel of magics mana system. In spite, I am building land destruction decks. I get dockside, but now fast combo decks will out pace timmy and more expensive decks, and thats why I like commander vs fast standard.
If they informed people/players that certain cards were up for ban review, people would probably start selling their cards in a panic, and if the cards didn't end up getting banned they'd just get mad. You can't win in these situations.
The fact that they said they were in the talks with wotc about these cards for like a Year, and they still made mana crypt collectors chase in Ixalon and Commander Masters Jeweled lotus makes this as scummy as they come.
I can't believe this, as a proxy player this outrageous decision is going to set me back almost six cents in printer paper
Absolutely. They should have considered the financial value of my proxies before making this irresponsible decision. I'm sure they _did not_.
I shouldn't have to face the tail risk I accept when using TCG cards as an investment strategy.
gfy
I bought one precon from each of the most recent two sets and the card quality in both is god awful. The foiling looks terrible, a lot of the holo stickers are inconsistently placed and the cards are noticeably thinner. I’m glad I only buy real Magic product in the form of cheap precons because the proxies I get are way higher quality than any of WOTC junk these days. Proxies are the way to go if you want higher quality for way less money.
My new rule zero is no proxies, the worry of losing money overnight is half the fun!
@@three6jay if you wanna be the cheap thief in the room, sure.. but bragging bout it? Sad
At least they didn't ban Mesa Falcon
I unironically want to petition them to ban the butt buffing bird. Would be hilarious.
I mean it has flying, which defies the laws of physics, so it's pretty much as big of a format staple as Sol Ring
@@flaviocbrangel but it's geometricly unbalanced once it starts butt buffing.
I'm working on a bird tribal deck that I want to put Mesa Falcon in it in honor of CGB
I'm glad to see CGB bring up the point of WOTC printing highly pushed direct-to-commander cards. It's a bad precedent, and easily worth the financial "loss" on those who bought into it. No one wants decks consisting of 99 "Masters" set cards.
3:15 CGB starts talking here.
Let people watch the whole video man, it helps the cgb...
Tnx
@@nemesis25100skipping 3 mins of a 2.5 hour video won't have an impact
@@nemesis25100or he could edit instead of just lazily uploading a stream
@@honestabe411 Insane take for bonus content
The more I watch the more i feel like CGB is one of the most normal people making magic content tbh
Overall I agree with CGB’s take on this, which I guess means I disagree with other creators’ takes, such as Josh Lee Kwai or Brian Kibler. These bans are a net positive overall.
I think like CGB stated a lot of the hurt is from waiting too long to ban problem cards, which just shows why the concepts of Rule 0 and sign post banning are logically incoherent. A format as large as commander cannot be supported by flimsy arguments that all boil down to “figure it out for yourselves.”
I think ultimately we need to reframe the whole concept of rule 0 as being conversations for actual exceptions. Like hey, I want to play this banned card, or I would like to use this planeswalker as a commander, or I would like to use some silver border cards. Exceptions can be figured out within established play groups. But you need some baseline guidelines for commander play outside of that context, which is growing more and more common with store play and Magic Cons. This is good for that context.
Basically I’m saying the ban list and other rules are a guide suggesting how to interact with the format in public, while when with those you know you can choose to collectively disregard those suggestions
I’ll argue it’s a negative for the game. Commander doesn’t need a rules committee, a third party, governing a casual format. They completely disregarded Rule 0 and spited CEDH. If you can’t communicate that’s a people problem not a card problem. Speaking of cards Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt were just recently reprinted. The RC either didn’t have the foresight or knew what would happen financially to LGS and collectors. If it’s the latter then they should be investigated to see if they sold off their copies before banning them. I’m sure WotC wouldn’t want to have their bottom dollar impacted and lose consumer confidence. So what is the point of buying collector packs now?
@@foreal7712& what if Wizards were to make the ban list & that too has this bans? is it that a different group is ruling on it, or is it your wallet was hit? your fine with the game store making bans at there event? if most rule zero conversation include a card, shouldn't it just get banned? it's not going to effect casual as they play with what they want
@@foreal7712 the idea that this was done in any sort of spite of the cedh community is completely disconnected from reality. you realize bans happen in real competitive magic formats? i have lost so much respect for cedh players because of this frankly childish reaction
in regards to collectors, take the L you are buying cardboard, even gold isn't stable and you expect cardboard game pieces (that you know can be banned at any time) to be? I do feel bad for stores, but it's just an unfortunate fact of the situation. however I truly believe that curating the most popular format to make it more healthy does more good than harm to most LGS's.
we have no idea what's going on behind the scenes, for all we know the RC was trying to get wotc to not print these cards in preparation for a ban and wotc just tried to call their bluff and not listen (because all they care about is selling product)
for once the RC uses their position as a party outside of WOTC to counter their bloodsucking monetization of commander and now we get all pissy and NO cards can be banned anymore, really excellent mindset
@@foreal7712 So you don't want people to play with, or against, anyone who is socially inept? You also think that the committee should be doing something that WotC adamantly claims to not do, keep the secondary market in mind when it comes to their regulating a game?
The point of buying collector packs now is because you want the cards, not because you want to sell the cards on the secondary market.
@@foreal7712yes you do. Rule zero is not god, it's a bandaid. Banning creates a default and signals to players that playing something is likely to make the game worse.
As a game designer, one of your most important jobs is to stop the player from accidentally ruining their experience. This is the same. It's removing pieces whose harmful effect is not immediately obvious to everyone to prevent those very unfun accidents.
I do find it kinda funny that the most common complaints I'm seeing about the bans aren't that its spoiling people's fun, but that people have lost money. Its not great, but surely every card you might buy, regardless of price could get banned for power level reasons.
Which makes me a bit angry. I treasure my cards regardless of their price, I though that was the norm.
@@alfredosaint-jean9660 Exactly, there are three values in a card. Monetary, Playability, and Sentiment. The first is fleeting and should be considered a cost, not an investment, in order to access the other two. It's nice to be able to recoup that cost, but you can't ever guarantee you'll get it back.
Are they banning Counterspell and Swords to Plowshares now?
Id say the one thats fair to be upset about is jeweled lotus since that was a card specifically printed for commander and i dont think its legal in any other non commander like format
@@majintv24 I get what you mean, but at the same time it's such an obviously broken card that it shouldn't have been printed in the first place. It was going to have to be dealt with at some point. The alternative is saying that any card that mechanically references Commander is safe from bans, when honestly the opposite should be true.
“I realized I just did not enjoy games or deckbuilding with those cards” now that’s a statement to frame and hang on the wall. 10:18
Not sure if that comment was honest or not. WotC could tell him not to critic the ban.
@@martinksk88 It's not an uncommon point of view.
Dunno mana crypt felt nice, cause it was one of my first legendaries from when I purchased my own double masters. It was my first Box buy.
@@martinksk88 wotc doesnt do these bans
@@martinksk88WoTC does not control nor do they like having this ban I imagine.
I think a ban list actually helps with rule zero. Instead of having a ten minute conversation on what cards are okay and not okay, you can just say "i have these cards from the ban list. Is that okay?"
This. Ban the problematic cards, rule 0 them in if you want. Hope stasis, winter orb, Armageddon and thoracle follow.
I have a Lutri deck and have always applied it that way. Ask before. Funnily I've never had a single pod have an issue with playing him as commander.
Plenty of people play silver border cards as well. I think people are mad about the rule 0 thing because most people aren't going to want to play against decks with the newly banned cards. They don't add anything to the game that's fun or interesting, just an increased chance of having a non game.
Definitely agreed. If everyone has an unspoken understanding of certain cards which "aren't casual" then why re-tread the same ground in every rule zero talk? Put it in paper and ban them. It's less time consuming to only talk about exceptions to the rule.
@@lewstnot at all, those cards aren’t even problematic
@jackattackhissnack they aren't played. They aren't problematic most of the time because they have basically been rule 0ed across the community. If cards are basically banned and only pulled out by assholes who want to ruin a table, just ban them officially. Rule 0 them in if the table allows it because you build your wincon around making your lands indestructible.
I have a lot of sympathy for individual players who shelled out money to buy these cards in recent times. I do not have any sympathy for secondary market people malding that their investment portfolio dropped. WoTC has already annointed these people the stewards of the game with all the chase rarities and alternate arts. Im happy with how bold the RC was in not considering secondary value in this way.
You should not feel bad for adults making bad financial decisions. If as adults they don't know the risk of buying a piece of paper for more than 100$, then they probably deserved it to teach them a lesson in gambling and wasting money on speculation. Spending 100$ for a piece of paper worth 0,01$ to produce is a decision that comes with risk. Feeling bad for people who didn't evaluate/understand such obvious risks is a waste of time and energy.
@@TheSmartCinemabad financial decisions would be secondary market people. The people who bought them for their decks would be hobbyists/collectors who want to do it right - and it is a big difference
@@TheSmartCinemaI’m glad the people I know and care about have more compassion than you, that’s all I can say. The pfp is a bit hypocritical.
A person i knew told me.once, that cards being banned is a sign of good card design. Spefically because it means that boundries are being pushed, design space is being explored, and brains are being engaged. The only issue i have is, unlike when they banned smugglers copter, bans don't come fast enough
I think it's fine that they are printing good cards that see play. what is not fine is when it takes a long time to ban them. The bird is the word should have been emergy banned in modern immediately after pro tour MH3. CGB is 100% correct in this assessment.
They clearly wanted you to continue your series with Rarran. :3 Looking forward to it.
"I kindof think they [goblins] should all die."
Well I have good news, most goblin decks agree with you!
Can confirm.
I know feelings are strong about these bans, but I'm just glad I won't have to worry about people coming in and pub stomping casual commander night at my LGS with these fast mana pieces. I wouldn't mind Sol Ring also eating a ban, but I'm sure it won't happen until WOTC stops putting that card in every precon.
That doesn't matter. Precons are perpetually legal regardless of their contents so long as you do not change a single card in the deck. It's a stipulation in case of situations like this.
Sol Ring did nothing wrong.
Then build better decks, im so sick of people complaining about certain cards in their pods, boo hoo, it's a game, get over it, I don't play cedh ever, but my friends and I just build decks we like that we think are fun, some of us have strong cards in some decks and some of us don't, and everyone in my group loses and wins all the time, I have friends with 3k sheoldred and kozilek decks with all the staples that people want banned, and other friends with 200 dollar decks that can't afford any card over 20 or 30 bucks, and they win just as often as everyone else, and honestly with all the magic I've played with friends and with strangers at lgs or on spell table, I hardly ever run into other decks where these cards are a problem at all, sure they are strong, but if 4 players are playing magic and know what they are doing, then someone is smart enough to hold up a countersepll, or a swords to plowshares, or one of the .million other answers for big threats, if you can't stop or remove a big spell or game winner, then you don't deserve to win that game, a well built deck that gets to go off and have a big fun play or win con deserves to do just that, I swear people get so salty because someone kills them or wins a game, my god, what is the point of playing a game if no one wants to play or interact or cast big fun stuff? I'd rather play 5 games in one session, rather than have a game drag out for 2 plus hours, because they banned all the win co editions and fadt mana, might as well just ban all mana rocks, make all lands come into play tapped, and not allow any widespread removal like board wipes or cyc rifts or anything of the sort, we don't need a commitee telling us how we all have to play because that's how they feel, that's leaning towards woke bs gameplay where some dumb group of cards decides what's fair and fun, quit printing cards to ban and ruining everyones collections, a d just let me people rule zero their house rules to what they want to ban and play with, Then all the true MTG fans that aren't scared of that crap can play real magic still and let the sissy's have their own dumbass house rules for the scary cat salts
I’d love to see sol ring banned
It's just kinda sad that the RC had to come in and police people's behavior because these assholes wouldn't stop spitting on new players' precons with these cards that only really belong in the highest levels of play.
The Nadu ban is so hilarious. Originally designed for modern in a modern focused set, changed for commander which made it busted in modern, aaand it gets banned from commander anyway. Should have left it alone especially since they didn't bother to test the final version.
Should never have been printed anyways...
I'd like to share that Josh for the command zone (largest WOTC sponsored edh channel) is on the RC advisory board while being paid by WOTC. Imo, that's unethical and sets up a situation where an individual holds far too much power over the market.
I Like your evaluation of this topic.
Especialy the „I wasn‘t Planning to Sell them, so I don‘t loose Money“ Part. If you buy Magic Cards for Investment you Are taking the known risk of moneyloss buy bans.
If you buy them to collect/own them, you didn‘t loose
If you love playing them, rule 0 them in your Playgroup, as you told us to do before with banning them.
If i would have recognized how extensive dockside got again, i would have sold mine, insgesamt of finally putting him in a Deck Last Week After years of not doing it 😂
I understand the pain of having a card you love be banned, and I can absolutely relate to that feeling. I also have my own problems with the Rules Committee. However, I have always been annoyed by people who treat their cards as a financial investment acting like they have a right to know their investment will never, ever, be jeopardized by a ban or something. That is not how investments work. If you buy stock in a company, the value of your stock can absolutely go down, maybe even all the way to being worthless. If you want to treat game pieces as an investment, that's your prerogative, but you have to accept that investments do not always pan out, and the ban list is centered around people playing the game, not treating it like a stock market alternative.
If you own banned cards and you weren't planning on selling them, then you just have to find people who are okay with playing against these cards and it's like nothing ever happened.
Lol let's ignore the fact that publicly traded companies regularly provide their financial statements so you can benchmark them. Also tell your lgs to stock buying and selling cards...
@@nathanwrennmn There's no getting around the fact this ban sucks for people and LGS's that own these cards, but you inherently accept the risk that things like this happen when you buy a card, regardless of what purpose you bought the card for. The fact these cards don't come with things like detailed financial statements is a significant part of why they are such a bad investment option.
Thank you CGB for being the level headed person in the room. Seen way too many folks spitting rage over these bans. But I can't but think they are the sort of people who contributed to the overinflated prices.
I searched "MtG ban" on TH-cam just to get a temperature of the room and saw thumbnails with people literally burning their Jeweled Lotus. Folks need more chill.
@@AxillaryPower2Tolerian Academy, ThatMillGuy and The Commander Podcast all had reasonnable takes, and are happy with the bans. I guess the TH-cam algorithm really can changes your perspective on things (I deleted Twitter a long time ago)
The main issue is that WotC designed these cards in the first place, they are an obvious mistake just like Hullbreacher. It took the RC way too long to ban these, they are obviously bad for the casual experience. I'm hopeful they'll ban some more problematic cards in the coming years like: Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, The One Ring. Those cards just suck the fun out of games and limit deck building.
I think Hullbreacher is great for Vintage. Not being able to run Hullbreacher is a real cost to running Lurrus. A bit of a tangent perhaps. I agree with the gist of your post, bann rystic and tithe absolutely.
I own one crypt and 2x docksides. Of these three, I pulled crypt from a mystery booster, got one dockside from C19 and bought the second dockside for $30 when it got reprinted in double masters. Objectively, I did not pay the $450 that they were theoretically worth, and I wasn’t likely to ever sell them. Objectively, it hasn’t ACTUALLY financially impacted me, but it still kinda feels like it has. I was running these cards in my decks, but as I went through and took them out and looked at replacing them, I agree that my decks will be more fun to play in their absence.
I think the “wallet feel” for me is that now that they are banned, I effectively can’t sell them (even if before I had no intention to). It’s like retroactive FOMO, I feel like I have missed the opportunity to make bank on these cards, kinda like if you see your lottery numbers get drawn, but you never bothered buying a ticket.
Ban any card that costs triple digits I say. Fight back against the predatory commoditizing of the game
I really hate hearing about the financial loss. It's literally the base risk of buying a piece of cardbox for 100$. Its ultimate value is a couple of cents ; what it cost to print it. If you, an adult, is willing to pay 100$ for a piece of paper, then don't cry afterwards. I feel the same about people crying about their financial loss, as I feel about someone losing at the casino. Would I feel bad for the bloke who burns 100$ on a table at the casino? No. Should I feel bad for a bloke who wasted 100$ on a piece of cardbox? No.
Wasted seems a bit fucking harsh for a game piece they have played with for/saved up for years to buy no? It's not like everyone was whaling through boxes to collect 30 lotuses and 20 crypts each.
Wizards doesn’t acknowledge any secondary value for their cards for a very good reason. People made dockside $100+ because they couldn’t get away from making it the centerpiece of their deck. Now they have to
@@PsychoDiesel48no card is safe. I think the only one they wanna preserve right now is posty’s one ring
There were people who spend 880 and 950 on invention mana crypt last week. Most of my friends lost 400-1000 between all their copies of banned cards. I understand your point, but I think people still have a right to be upset.
@@yugiohguy4543 womp womp bloke spent 1000$ on a piece of paper without assuming the risks it entailed. Being a responsible adult includes the ability to assess risk when spending money. The risk of the most powerful cards of a format getting banned has always been there. If as an adult you still choose to spend 1000$ on such card, knowing the risk, then I'd just say to you : grow up.
My major issue with these bans is that they didn’t happen years ago.
I think that CGB’s take is good and thoughtful. I think WOTC touching Commander is bad, because Hasbro’s shareholders don’t care about good game design. I think WOTC should stop printing cards directly for Commander, slow down their overall rate of printing cards, and focus more on the quality of their product.
I empathize with anyone who feels a financial loss, but I don’t care. I want magic to be good to play, every other concern is secondary to me
"It was never about the money.... its about sending a message" - the RC and Joker
The thing about sol ring is that is easily available and it's less than $5
I don't think that's true. The real reason they can't ban it is because 99% of precons would be illegal if they did. Cheap cards get banned all the time. That's not the reason.
Somewhat doubtful you will see this, but I want to say I liked this a lot and hope you are open to more casual discussion streams like this. Came to hear your opinions on the bans, ended up staying for the chill vibes.
Agreed!!!
as a new proxy player, I am thankful for all the money I will save going forward so we can detach from this insanity.. The house of cards is imploding!
I think the core issue here is monetary. Whether the bans will improve gameplay is largely subjective - and if the bans were Thassa's Oracle, Underworld Breach and Storm Kiln Artist, the backlash would be nowhere near as strong as it is now. When it comes to investments, everything carries risk - but consumers have a reasonable expectation of oversight and protection for high-value purchases (regardless of whether they would be considered a good investment or not). This is extensively covered in consumer protection laws. In this instance, there are two exacerbating factors:
1. The Rules Committee is not part of Wizards of the Coast which means that their decisions are not subject to the proper oversight (part of WotC's duties)
2. Two of the cards in question: Mana Crypt and Jewelled Lotus were very recently centerpieces of collector products and a large percentage of the set's value is tied up in these cards. While you could argue that the Nadu price drop is just an unfortunate cost of playing Magic, it would be disingenuous to suggest that collector boosters are not at least partly marketed as an investment.
As far as format health goes, I also think that the impact of gameplay is less relevant than consumer confidence. (Assuming we measure format health by its longevity and the number of players) - lower consumer confidence = lower sales volumes = WotC is incentivised to either cut back their investment in the game. Wiping out tens of millions in card equity also has a disproportionate effect on your LGS. I don't think slowing down a Thoracle win once in a while balances the scales.
Honestly this is a perfrct video. Been playing this in my headphones at work for the full time. You should do more chill vids like this. And if ya do, guess it's my fault for not seeing them yet.
I'm surprised the full set binder of Commander Masters can lie flat, that set curled the worst of any cards I ever encountered.
I feel the same. I own many copies of each, but I stopped building decks with them for a while, especially dockside.
Just my opinion, them saying a card will be banned vs banning s card outright will have the same effect regardless. It sucks but the financial hit would likely be same.
Not talking bout cgb but a lot of people are like the RC should be vocal. If they say a card may be banned or is going to be banned will still send the card plummeting in value
you are correct. people thinking they could offload their mana crypts for 200 bucks if the RC had communicated it gets banned in six months doesn't understand basic economics. Which is fine, most people don't.
Doing a Jerome Powell where I go, "the RC is not taking any action on xyz in 2025 but we are monitoring it closely and it might see changes in 2026"
Some excellent takes from CGB in this one. The maturity shines through.
I think the real problem here is that WotC has been dangling Mana Crypt and Jeweld Lotus in front of it's consumers to sell packs. I promise that the price of Mana Crypt on the secondary market has been extensively analyzed so that WotC can reprint it to drive sales on new packs without tanking it's value. Almost 100% of the value in these cards is driven by a format where they are no longer legal.
My only issue is that for people who like to play competitive, now if they don’t make a separate ban/unban list this actually hurts our meta and our variety of commanders that we can play. Decks that take a big hit or are unplayable now are korvold, Niv mizzet, sisay, kinnreth and any big commander. On top of that dockside is one of our main win conditions.
I think Sisay will survive, just in a different way. But yeah the others you listed seem dead, especially Korvold RIP to the king.
If you want a format with a separate banlist geared towards competitive play, no one is stopping you from establishing a new ruleset.
it sucks but you get what you signed up for. The RC explicitly do not make decisions with cEDH in mind. You knew this going in.
I agree with CGBs rhystic study take, and I’m particularly ornery toward smothering tithe.. it’s like delayed dockside imo. But, with the ban of fast mana I think early smothering tithes will feel less bad to me.
If the Tithe tax only costed 1 I think it’d feel more fair. Would still punish players being greedy and drawing a ton of cards, but it’d be reasonable to pay it off when you’re just drawing for turn.
@@davidhower7095 agree totally
Good bans, should have happened a long time ago with most of these cards.
I own Dockside and Mana Crypt, I'm more saddened by my Eldrazi titan tribal getting weaker than the loss of money since I hadn't planned on ever selling them before they got banned. The worst part of this ban is that decks built around cheap commanders, which were already strong, got stronger by comparison. My friend used to play Sauron in cEDH and he says that his deck is functionally dead now. I would like these bans if they had just banned 1 more card; Thoracle. I can't stand losing to Thoracle in any format, the win feels so unearned because it's built around throwing away your entire deck. Only wanting 1-2 cards from your deck is the antithesis of commander imo.
I played Panic at the Disco's "Hallelujah" in response. Best bans in years.
amen brother.
Cartographer's Hawk and Surveyor Scope safe still. Phew! That was a nail biter.
unironically Nadu is worse than Kinnan. its just that you can jam Nadu in every simic+x deck that runs lightning greaves and you got an insane engine
Rule 0 is trash, ban more, ban faster. Ban Sol Ring yesterday. Rhystic yesterday, smothering tithe yesterday. Deflecting swat and fierce guardianship. Like all these made for commander pushed cards. Sol ring would be fine if you couldnt play it turn 1 and maybe 2, print fixed sol ring ban old one.
Necropotence as well. Let the scrum bags that want these cards rule zero them in. Randos at the game store shouldn't have to deal with these things. Rule zero should be for the sweats that wanna play high powered.
I love playing against strong cards and opponents, playing the cards they enjoy, it's so weird to police your opponents playstyle to me.
Disagree on TOR. I think a card making 99% of all decks objectively better is a solid definition of an S tier card. The reason people don't see it more often is the price. Just because it's less boring to play than Teferi's Protection doesn't make it less homogenizing. It's even worse because it actually slots into every EDH deck being colorless.
I remember when Konami banned Zoodiacs for the first time. They'd deliberately printed them at a higher rarity compared to Japan. Then once the deck reached the price of the latest Iphone it got banned.
This is similar regarding price but at least our decks are still playable.
After much deliberation i think the timing is good bc it forces all the decks with those cards to be changed right before the event so it actually opens up a huge window for creativity and brewing and new games at the event which will be a good marker of which cards will be substituted and a fresh look at the meta
Imagine saying that supporting the ban of expensive cards is shilling. Backwards thinking
The only thing I could say I disagree with is banning any of these cards for cEDH. I think it would’ve been a very nice line to have a casual EDH and a competitive EDH ban list. I don’t enjoy games where there is a jeweled Lotus commander turn one or infinite dockside temur sabertooth loops in a casual table but cEDH tables would have things like force of will, swords, or mental misstep for answers. At the end of the day, I think we need to have a separate banlist for cEDH and casual EDH as I full heartedly agree that these are good bans for your average player, but not good at all for competitive players.
I am unsure whether cEDH should have a ban list ?
CGB I Started watching you through rarran and now i watch both of yall almost everyday. You may be one of the coolest mtg players online and i would love to play paper magic with you. Thankyou for being awesome
the RC has mentioned several times for years that Dockside and Crypt were on a watchlist bc given their function and the progression of the game, it wasn't a matter of "if" but "when." Simply put, the game was too fast in casual, so ban the fast mana. They def should have pulled the plug on these 2 a long time ago, but I'm glad they're gone.
Don't believe they ever mentioned crypt. At least in years. Dockside was regularly mentioned tho
The games need to be faster in casual, I have a life I can't spend 3 hours on every single commander game because they banned every single ramp spell
Good news, almost every single other ramp spell is legal. Use them.
So the only fast decks are now red or green or both.
Every color has access to mana rocks.
While I don't think some of this cards were "unfun" or to broken for the Commander format I don't mind the banning that much. My only problem with this Ban update that it didn't took Thoracle down with it too.
Exactly now we're just going to see slower thoracle combos. Woooooo
Thoracle is only a 'problem' in cEDH and the RC doesn't care about cEDH.
I love that story at the end xD
And, I really liked the stream. If I wasn't subscribed yet, I would be now^^
Amazing bans. Love the tears that came with them.
I know who's crying btw. People too WEAK to do well in 1v1, that were getting off easy wins in EDH with broken cards. And speculators. Dunno which disgusts me more. (I do, it's speculators).
CGB you are a very wise man. Thankyou for your insight
Appreciate the thoughts from both sides. From someone that got into magic a lot during the last year, I don't have the cards being band but I do empathize for the 'money loss' from the bans for long time collectors. Playing with multiple pods, it is wild to play against an over powered deck in commander, even at a house group with long time players. thanks for the vid.
46:06 I honestly get behind this. My problem with it is that the rules committee prebanned Lutri months prior. If fast mana like Mana Crypt was a problem for as long as it was, they should have given Jeweled Lotus the same treatment.
But they didn't, which felt like a nod that a card like this is acceptable.
A lot of people have never played a format with frequent bans and it shows...
I used to hate to include RS in my commander decks, (Historic Brawl.) But i noticed that its a great card that can shutdown Storm, Niv Miz, etc. So i grew to appreciate how well it slows down way too fast decks.
Love the video. Your opinion on everything seems valid. It feels like a punch to the gut, but no catastrophic damage.
As someone who lost 5 LCI crypts and a Kaladesh Masterpiece one, it’s a huge feels bad
I really appreciate how much you reinforced how terrible of a financial impact this had on people. Some people have spent MONTHS of their lives saving up for these cards only to see their dreams ruined by a non democratically elected authoritarian “committee”.
What dreams?
Owning the cards? They still own them.
Playing the card? They can still do that if their friends OK it.
Or they could have proxyed the card in the first place.
I just bought a mana crypt, my first ever powerful card a few days ago, i havent even gotten it yet, basically just a big ol screw you
Edit: Its fine guys im just gonna use it as a treasure token
Hope you can get a refund. 😣
It sucks that you have to suffer for this but it is a huge stick up to wizards to stop printing cards for specifically Commander. We have so much product right now we can't keep up with it and it's only going to get worse if we continue to let them do it.
Props to you CGB, I think you really communicated your opinion on this topic in a good way.
I definitely understand how people feel upset about these bans when they have lost a big amount of money. For me, I mostly support these bans and as someone who in general does not include fast mana in my decks, I agree that this probably has a long time positive effect on the format. Generally, I enjoy the process of deck buiding when there are less auto-includes in the card-pool, so I think banning of these cards will make decks more exciting and diverse (I hope?).
I just wished, they'd come to this decisions sooner and not burn so many people who embrace the high-end of the power spectrum.
It's a good first step. Honestly, the RC should completely revamp the ban list from the ground up. No more sol ring, cmc zero mana rocks, grim monolith, mana vault, thassa's oracle, timewtister, gaea's cradle (you get the idea). No more cheese cards or play patterns involving hyper fast mana production, it's unhealthy for the sake of the game. Also, just adapt? Well, players have no choice if you are going to play edh, you have to change or quit.
I agree except they can't ban sol ring. they absolutely should but it's not doable. it's in every precon.
I'm not remotely upset by these bans. All four needed to go.
Best said tbh. These bans though only affect cEDH play like when your at you LGS just rule zero and play the cards you want. I think this is also going to help other decks have soace now instead of always focusing on super fast mana
3/4 of these cards were explicitly designed FOR commander btw 😘
Designing for commander was a mistake.
@@Cybertech134 I have been saying that for years
Well 2 were specifically for commander nadu was technically designed for modern with a commander emphasis but was just poorly done from start to finish since they tested it based on commander
@@majintv24 they literally wrote in the modern ban announcement: "Nadu was aimed at (= designed for) commander play"
Yes he was printed in "modern horizons" but modern horizons has always been 50/50 a commander/eternal set.
Totally agree with CGB's take. The whole point of commander is for casual play, and none of these cards should have existed in commander.
The problem is wizards pushing and creating these cards which are so broken to begin with. If they really were staples, they wouldnt have cost hundreds of dollars for a single card, which so many cant afford.
would it be possible for a ban system similar to like league of legends, where everyone bans a couple cards and you must have a "side deck" like make it a mandatory rule
It doesn't work. If I bring Niv-mizzet parun and jewelled lotus and dockside gets banned I have to go home. My commander is uncastable forever. Or, someone brings an ad nass deck and ad nass gets banned. You can't replace one card, you have to switch every card because your entire strategy revolves around resolving ad nasseam.
@@Martin-qb2mw but thats cedh what your're describing, the problem with rule 0 is that it really doesn't work (friends and people at lgs' alike have never let me play with a banned card). If rule 0 was a mandatory rule for at least casual commander then it could work. At this point we have to separate cedh and edh bans lists, feels like the best solution at this point imo
For some decks, that's hard since it's a key piece. For stuff like Mana Crypt, you can definitely do this (and in fact a lot of players will have a "here's a card I can slide out and put mana crypt in if I want to play with people who have fast mana" to enable this
@@Kaiasky obviously I'm just spitballing here and I get it wouldn't be that simple, maybe not a literal adaptation of the league system but in casual edh where you usually don't rely on combos banning lotus or dockside wouldn't hinder your strategy. In my head, the players are aware that anything they play could be banned so they would be incentivized to build their decks in new interesting ways
Kinda sad that I just very recently bough Dockside as a gift for a friend... Obviously I understand the format-related reasons for the ban but it definitely hurts a bit :(
I'm sure your friend will remember your kindness even if the card is no longer playable. I know I would.
i get that ppl might be upset if they lost money but it is so absurd that anyone is arguing over these bans. if you question those bans you have absolutely no interest in commander being a good or healthy format.
The game comes 1st always. If the bans are an attempt to make commander a better format then your monetary investment do not matter. This is a game not a stock portfolio, if there weren't so many resellers/hoarders regular players could get cards cheaper. I just wanted to write this not towards anybody.
At first I was really upset over the bans because I never saw them played and I don't agree with banning cards. But your opinion on these bans, and the statements on Dockside and Jewelled Lotus made the most sense to me. I never considered the cash grab elements to cards made specifically for commander.
Big W for commander gameplay
as someone who never invested in any of these cards I think it was a good decision they banned them so I never have to think about it anymore. something is good when it is catered to me specifically :)
on a serious note: I truly believe that people who really love playing with fast mana and are outraged about these bans, really just want to play Yu-Gi-Oh but they are too embarassed to admit it
Mana crypt is the only problem . The other 3 shouldn't have ever been made in the first place
Tbf Crypt was never meant to be a legal card. It was a magazine promo. It was fine for so long in EDH because it was primarily battlecruiser for ages. But design in 2024 isn't like that any more and mana curves are so low for high impact cards, fast mana just keeps getting more and more impactful.
If Sol Ring hadn't been reprinted into the and had been a 150$ card too, I'l sure it would have been banned too
I think the funniest thing about this is that commander is kitchen table magic and if everyone at the table agrees you do not have to follow these "rules".
That's why there's a rule 0. Just ignore the ban list.
Yea the ban list is for LGS and events. Also probably for online games with randoms.
Otherwise everyone should follow their own lists amongst friends.
I kinda hope the silver border project evolves into like "I'm bringing a deck with fast mana, contraptions, and dexterity cards" "okay, I'm bringing a deck with a top-10 combo and land destruction"
Happy about the bans, but I think I'm going to keep dockside in my crappy Admiral Beckett Brass deck, sleeve up a Hullbreacher and put that back in, and when someone calls me out for cheating I'm going to just shrug and say, "Pirate." matter of factly.
"Deckbuilding with Dockside, Mana Crypt, and Jeweled Lotus is boring!" "I LOVE Rhystic Study its such a good card."
Yea whats wrong with that? Theres a fundamental difference in the play patterns, eventhough theyre both winning strategies. With fast mana you basically unlock game winning actions before anyone can stop you. With Rhystic study you play politics and build up card advantage over time, which can be annoying sure, but its still in the spirit of commander
@@TimMachineQS Politics? Lol what politics are involved with RS? "Hey don't pay the one so I can draw a card and it won't come back to bite you. ;)'
@destinyhero The proof is in his content that RS can go both ways.
Either it will be ignored and the player playing RS gains a tremendous amount of value or the pod agrees mutually (and unspoken) to pay the one and then remove it or straight up kill the player that played the 3 mana enchantment without it having done anything.
Especially in the later WPCS videos you will see that the pod often pays the one. Politics.
@@stefkemaksymow6993 yea exactly, this is what I was referring to. Although now I have a feeling destinyhero just really doesnt like rhystic study so it doesn't really matter if we explain haha
@@TimMachineQSDude is actually trying to downplay RS. Comical.
What a time to get into Commander (and back into Magic after over a decade). Still not sure if I should buy singles or buy a precon.
I felt relief that it wouldn't be in the back of my head "You know, if I really wanted to make this better, I could get mana crypt"
35:11 - Hot take but... This is why I felt like the Golos ban was unnecessary. Its popularity was an issue that would have solved itself over time, people would have got tired of it and started branching out again.
I do think one ring will get an edh ban one day due to price unless it gets banned modern.
Due to licensing agreements, it doesnt seem possible to simply reprint the one ring.
Im not going to say i want the RC to be banning things every quarter, but i definitely think more open communication more often about what sorts of things they're looking at would be a good thing.
That being said, these bans are an absolute positive for the format.
I know it'll never happen but I wish the RC had a lever to force reprints and otherwise control prices. It'd be healthier for the game and worse for wotc/hasbro's bottom line, so lmao.
they need to introduce a potential ban watchlist. Like ppl should know if the RC is talking / thinking about banning a card.
From what I understand it kind of exists and both dockside and mana crypt were on it. Or it was communicated at least that those 2 were being closely watched.
I’d be much more devastated if I weren’t also really into cube. I feel very bad for everyone who has nothing else to do with these cards that don’t have a place in any other accessible formats, or at all in the case of lotus. That being said, everyone should try getting into cube.
It’s notable that nothing on the reserve list was touched. If they were being true to their own criteria there should have been a few that got hit. I do wonder if people really had so much of an issue with Jeweled Lotus? I have one and in my playing with it, it does lead to a crazy turn one occasionally, but more often than not it just ends up helping to cheat commander tax one time. And often it just ends up being a completely dead draw. Considering it is literally only playable in Conmander, banning it feels bad. At least Crypt still has Vintage. EDIT: I’m not complaining about Lotus. I pulled mine from a pack, so don’t feel the pain of the investment, but of all of the 4 bans, it seems to me the least ban-worthy from my experience.
CovertMesaFalcon is looking more like the bad guy for Morbius every day that passes.
Honestly wish they banned more cards. I have sympathy for anyone who bought these cards, especially recently, but I'm also glad they aren't letting money get in the way of making changes to the format that could make gameplay more enjoyable.
I know they don't ban for cedh generally, but pls hit some of the egregious blue cards. They need a hit somewhere whether it's rhystic study/remora style cards, free counter magic, or thoracle. Dockside hits most, if not all cedh decks, but it definitely impacts some of the non blue turbo strategies the hardest.
Question, so how do you feel about all the over powered blue counterspells, if you play them in your deck it can be no fun for the table and should be band? All stax cards? Drannith Magistrate, cant play your commander....... just wondering your thoughts
simple: blue counterspells deserve to stay unbanned because blue is the best color. (but also, I really don't think counterspells are a problem for commander, card advantage limits the usefulness)
Playing around counterspells is part of learning to play Magic. They're a problem until one day they're just another mechanic.
If you want to know how to beat them, play them and see how often you're caught dead for overreliance on them
Its not the commander committees fault that wotc was greedy bastards and decided to try to get broken cards into commander players hands. Mana crypt wasn't as much of a problem when there weren't a bunch of new mana crypts flowing around. And as for Jewelweed Lotus should have never been printed, commander didnt need or want a black lotus, why it was banned. Same with dockside. The committees fault is not banning dockside and lotus earlier.
As someone who doesn't play magic and has no emotional attachment to any of this, this whole stream feels like a tired dad lecturing his kids, they're stupid but he loves them
When are you gonna be able to design your own Mesa Falcon my man
Where does the background music for this stream come from?
I appreciate the level headedness. The Magic community is far too reactionary and unable to see things objectively so it's good to see high profile members of the community not throwing a fit.
Yay, green ramp is even better now by eliminating ramp from other colors.. Mana rocks promote playing cards, fights against the achilles heel of magics mana system. In spite, I am building land destruction decks. I get dockside, but now fast combo decks will out pace timmy and more expensive decks, and thats why I like commander vs fast standard.
If they informed people/players that certain cards were up for ban review, people would probably start selling their cards in a panic, and if the cards didn't end up getting banned they'd just get mad. You can't win in these situations.
The fact that they said they were in the talks with wotc about these cards for like a Year, and they still made mana crypt collectors chase in Ixalon and Commander Masters Jeweled lotus makes this as scummy as they come.